Brayden Ainsworth Interview | BackChat Podcast

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Righty, welcome to Back Chat podcast. This week on the show, he is a footballer, past footballer for the West Coast Eagles, but what he has done post career I think is far more impressive than his footy career and I mean that with the greatest respect as well. Braden Ainsworth Bubba joins me on Back Chat this week. Hello mate. How are you >> mate? I'm very good and uh happy to be here and I guess it's not hard to [laughter] beat my footy career. So, anything post that should be better.

[00:00:30]>> Look, as it came out of my mouth, I was like, "Cheer, that's a backhander." But I genuinely I look, I see what you do in the mental health space, mate. And um that's both from your job point of view with the Happiness Co. lads and what you're doing there, which we're going to get into in a little bit. But it's probably more so from a personal point of view, knowing you as a kid at the footie club, seeing you develop there, seeing you struggle. Um, and then seeing you be really open about your own mental health publicly, I think, yeah, I I think it surpassed what you did on the footy field, which I think is a compliment.

[00:01:04]>> Yeah, I'll take it as a compliment. Like I think [snorts] um like everyone's got if you play AFL and you have a good enough career like there's a lot of people that have got I guess good resumes or something on field but um yeah it's the the offfield stuff I guess that I've enjoyed a lot more post through you know if it's impact or meeting people or [snorts] yeah going to schools in the workshops but yeah definitely uh got better after football.

[00:01:31]>> Good. Well, I want to talk to you about all of that. But before we get into that and given you're a footballer, I want to know your greatest sporting achievement, not on the football field. You know how this goes. I know you listen to back chat. You better have come in here with something good because I don't want to know about your waffle res's flag this mate. I don't want to know about what you've done on the footy field. You how many? 15 games of West Coast. Good.

[00:01:53]Okay. You made an AFL list. Good on you.

[00:01:54]Lots of people do that. What can you do not on the football field? Greatest sporting achievement. Uh yeah, I did.

[00:02:01]Yeah, obviously I knew this was coming.

[00:02:03]So there was there was uh there was two that I was debating with. Um and Dan's not here, so I'm still going to throw it in. I made 100 not out. Uh which was huge in school cricket, like playing cricket and all you want to do is JL was like a hero of mine, >> watching him get hundreds. So doing that was good. But I think a three pete basketball uh year 9, year 10, year 11, and then getting uh best on for all three. Wow.

[00:02:29]>> Yeah. Back home.

[00:02:30]>> You used to rate yourself sort of uh in the pool sort of shooting and sort of bit of a bit of a ball user with basketball in hand at the footy club. I do remember that actually.

[00:02:39]>> Yeah. Outside, but just and then dish.

[00:02:41]Yeah. I Yeah, I do rate my basketball game which was hard when you got patch and those boys rolling in and thinking you were trash cuz you know that play for Victoria. But yeah, secretly confident my my basketball game [laughter] >> that did um I like that. So made 100.

[00:02:56]Where was that? Was that at home?

[00:02:57]>> Yeah, it was at home. Yeah. Um it was school cricket so it was like year 8 to year 12. We versed Kouli. I was year 12 at the time and I think I was versing year eight but still count still got to make the runs.

[00:03:09]>> Got dropped on a duck too. Second ball.

[00:03:11]>> So you're a sporting kid by the sound of it. Esperence where you grew up which is south >> as south as you get in Western Australia.

[00:03:21]>> Um what was life like growing up for you mate? cuz you you had a different start and and and being in espir is the start of it too. What was it like? Sport.

[00:03:30]>> Sport. That's literally all my whole life was sport. Like growing up was follow dad uh footy, cricket, like going at every training session he had, every game he had and then it was follow my brothers doing the exact same thing. And it was always I guess striving to do anything in sport that was like cricket, basketball, soccer, squash, played all of it. And then school was just like h okay I got to get up, wake up, go to school. But then it was I guess the time from you know as soon as the bell rang till you got home after training. It was my thing was all about sport and it was the only thing I guess I enjoyed growing up outside of hanging out with mates.

[00:04:09]And my basically from year would be about year six, I reckon year five or six. Um met my three best mates properly and through whole high school was just hanging out with them and they were probably my my comfort zone cuz outside of that I I struggled a lot cuz I was really overweight as a kid. Got bullied, got picked on and then turned into the dude that wanted to do that to other people cuz of like anyway we can get into all of that later on. But that was sport was my life. It was everything I loved. Um, and then outside of that it was beaches. It was hanging out with mates on the weekend. That was riding bikes around. Like it was just a country, I guess, kid and doing all the normal country things that I guess a a kid gets to do, which is a lot different to a city kid that you probably got to watch out for certain things. But yeah, we rode our bikes, knock off school, ride to school, do whatever we wanted.

[00:04:59]And yeah, it was fun. It was a great childhood.

[00:05:01]>> When did you move to Perth?

[00:05:03]>> Uh, after year 12. So graduated year 12 and then moved up after that. And was that chasing sporting dreams?

[00:05:09]>> Yeah. All for footy. Yeah, that was that was it. Once I hit year 10, it was footy. That was all I wanted.

[00:05:16]>> So, what's it like getting your name read out, getting drafted to West Coast, your home state? You're a West Coast fan growing up.

[00:05:22]>> Was up until roughly around year 10 and then, well, yeah, year 10.

[00:05:28]And then I sort of cut and just followed players. So, I went west coast, a little bit of Gold Coast when they came in.

[00:05:33]Wow.

[00:05:34]>> And then I just went players. Right.

[00:05:35]>> But I was massive like West Coast early days.

[00:05:37]>> What's it like you that's that's your dream getting your name read out I think. Well that's the first dream and then you want to play your first game and then you want to you know keeps going. But what's it like getting drafted by West Coast?

[00:05:48]>> It was like one of the thinking back now one of the best feelings and moments you know my of my life >> getting that dream come true and that you're on an AFL list and I guess everything you'd worked for and wanted came true. [snorts] and to be surrounded by your your best mates and friends and family and to have that accomplishment and that achievement. Um yeah, it was one of the best feelings I' ever had.

[00:06:12]And then to see I guess the people that helped me along the way be there in that moment and the joy that it bought them as well. Um and then I guess the next you know half an hour to 60 minutes after was pretty good feeling with the phone calls and the messages you get from certain people.

[00:06:26]>> I reckon we can juxtapose a little bit in this um in this potty where we can go high and low. So, do you feel like that was one of your highest moments of your life?

[00:06:33]>> Yeah, definitely.

[00:06:33]>> So, what's what was your lowest?

[00:06:36]>> Lowest uh football-wise or just in general?

[00:06:39]>> You can take it wherever you like.

[00:06:40]>> Uh football-wise, from from that moment, I probably didn't realize how much the achievements and accomplishments would start to take a hold of who I was as a person and getting so attached to that and chasing that validation of I'm worthy now. I'm enough now. So, that's the I guess that was the two-sided coin of getting drafted and achieving your dream. It's like, okay, now like everyone wants to be your friend and now you're popular and now you're cool. And then it was trying to live up to that. And then the lowest moment getting delisted was was tough. Um, and I chased that again. And then I guess from that phone call I got getting delisted to then you know four or five months later was the lowest point in hospital uh for 4 weeks was that was dead set the lowest point in my life that I've ever been >> with what while you're in hospital.

[00:07:29]>> I had anorexia. So throughout childhood had an eating disorder. Um early days it was more binging and then it got to like once I guess I got to subie it was okay actually that that year. Um but throughout the year it was towards the end of year was are you too fat, you too overweight, your skin folds too high, what are you eating, uh what are you like all that testing stuff came into it and then it really started to develop and then once I got into the system it got pretty bad um at certain points there and then yeah got had to go into hospital otherwise I don't know if I'd be sitting here talking to you.

[00:08:07]>> So you spoke about um and and we'll come back on the positive stuff too because I think that's what life is right. just like talk about good and bad.

[00:08:14]>> So you mentioned before you grew up, you're overweight as a kid.

[00:08:18]>> Y >> you're bullied. Um how much does that play a part into the person you become and probably like the athlete you become? Maybe I don't know that that that side of it and then how like how much does that have to do with kind of where you got to? Is that where it started?

[00:08:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. It started as a kid and then it's I guess it's the labels, the identity >> that came with it and that as a kid it was the same thing. I was like, "Oh, I'm I'm not like not smart enough. Never going to achieve the goals I wanted."

[00:08:46]Um, but then I had one person that believed in me. And then I guess from there it was, okay, maybe I can play footy. And then the the bullying and stuff, I was like, "No, you know what?

[00:08:55]I'm just going to lock into a bit of fitness." And I clear as day, year 10 was where it started. And then just got fitter and fitter, leaner, taller, grew.

[00:09:06]So then it was okay. And then through footy it just got worse. And it was the the opposite effect of well the my first year I still remember it clear as day.

[00:09:16]We went for lunch and you know I was getting teased by certain people not teased but joking around by by blo um the boys and they were like mate you probably can't be eating that. You're a bit overweight. You're a bit chubby. You got to drop your skin folds. Um then it was the little things of oh drink a ice long black or a long black or an espresso cuz less calories and it suppresses hunger and then all these things started to flow in. Okay, that's how I dropped my skin folds. U talking to the dietitian I was too overweight had to drop all that and then but I could run and then I guess the way I seen myself getting into the team was to be fit and be able to run. So I focused on that and then I was like well maybe when Masto left and I was like well that's that could be my role now that Redwing sort of role and then it was labeled as someone that was fit and then I got super lean and then I dropped 10 kilos in an off season and then it just sort of yeah snowballed from there and then the label of you know lean the fit dude and then I just stuck to that and was too scared to get away from that.

[00:10:18]So, I'll just be honest. I just listening to her, like I I don't really know what anorexia is. I hear you say it and in my mind I'm like, "Yeah, what what's it literally look like?" And and how does like those things you just spoke about? I've done those things in, you know, I've had long blacks instead of >> Yeah.

[00:10:38]>> you know, coffees and I've watched my skin fold and you know, as an athlete, like that's what you have to do. So, where does it go past the point of what you have to do as an athlete to anorexia and what does that actually look like?

[00:10:48]Cuz I don't I don't know. Maybe people listening don't know either.

[00:10:50]>> Yeah. It's it's such a hard thing to understand if you if you're not going through it. Like it's so and it's it's it's funny but it's not funny at the same time in terms of like for you to sit there you like mate just eat this, eat that, drink. What does it matter?

[00:11:05]Like it's so easy. You can go and have a burger. But >> like going through it, it's like nah.

[00:11:09]Like >> so you're not eating for days. Is that what it looks like? Are you making yourself throw up?

[00:11:13]>> Never. I never never made myself like throw up, >> but I would like not eat and then I would eat like dinner and dinner was like it was like some little bits of chicken and maybe some veg and that was it. And that went on, >> man. It happened in the space of about 2 and 1/2 months is where it went like good. I was the healthiest and fittest I've been rolling into round one of Perth and then I played a game against North uh the top up co stuff got taken out of halftime and from there I just capitulated and from that day to when I got him into hospital lost yeah 30 kilos and >> [ __ ] >> um which was yeah literally in the space of yeah 2 months and >> and you weren't really you weren't it's not like you you're 100 down to 70. No >> what what were you? I was 82 and then you'd take 30 off that.

[00:12:04]>> Yeah.

[00:12:05]>> Yeah. So, round one of it was either round one or crack a game of waffle on the Monday, weighed in and yeah, it was 82 and then yeah, admitted to hospital, >> right?

[00:12:15]>> How do you reflect back on that now?

[00:12:18]>> Now's okay. Now's fine. But it took me a long time cuz I was felt shame and guilt, embarrassment around the whole thing. Like, how did you let yourself get to that? Why did you let yourself get to that? You're a loser. um like all of those thoughts that everyone has in their own different ways, but I couldn't sit with it. And I guess it was probably came from the fact that I was a failure in football. Um never good enough there.

[00:12:43]So then what am I going to do now? I lost the identity. But then I wanted to chase that identity and then it was the only thing I could control and it just kept spiraling and spiraling and spiraling in so many different areas and then yeah ended up eating disorder from you know I I lied about it was just an overex exercising thing but it was yeah a relationship with food that I had control over but not control over if that makes sense.

[00:13:08]>> And when you talk about spiraling that's mentally as and then it's like showing in balance with your life right?

[00:13:14]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. all physical like >> you yeah if I could put photos and and stuff like I >> it's you don't want to see like how bad it was and the your face your color of your skin um you know yellow from jaundice your gray I looked like 40 years old from everything was so frail um black body kidneys and lungs shut down nearly had to have a a liver transplant um not not lungs but liver and kidneys uh three days in the hospital and yeah so it was like rock bottom and um you know you go from being a AFL athlete that you know bench presses and runs and does all this stuff to at one stage you I literally couldn't pull myself up off the ground um no strength >> do you have you know looking about your footy career do you have like is there positives there still >> oh yeah heaps like >> but again it's same thing like it took me so long um to be proud of making AFL >> yeah which was hard. And the only reason I did was my brother, my eldest brother, were driving in the car and um he we drove past Optus and I think it was the West Coast were playing or freeh playing and he goes um he said something about footy and I was like, "Oh yeah, like I think like we were talking about, oh yeah, I'd still get a game if I was there." And um we just and then he said something and he's I'm like no mate like I I was a I was no good and he goes like are you question are you proud of yourself that you made AFL? I'm like no way like I played a handful of games was like failure. I just wasn't good enough.

[00:14:50]And he goes mate like there's this thing you're the 1% that made it to AFL. And I was like yeah but like who cares? I made it but did make a career.

[00:14:58]>> And he just like literally told me to shut up. And he said, "Mate, just like think about you playing AFL. Like you achieved your dream. Like that's you should be proud of that."

[00:15:07]>> And I guess in that moment was the moment I realized like, "Oh, I should be proud. Like I I got to do what I wanted to do." And then from there was still like slowly started to accept it. And now it it's an accomplishment that I'm super proud of like playing NFL. But then it comes back to well the locker room. Like when was the funnest parts for me? It was preseason I loved and then the locker room.

[00:15:32]>> I hate your preseason.

[00:15:33]>> Yeah.

[00:15:34]>> I couldn't train. I couldn't run.

[00:15:35]>> But I always got performance anxiety which I never talked about either.

[00:15:38]>> Um and >> played with a few bikes like like like you who who struggled >> with with the game and I was the opposite. I had training anxiety.

[00:15:48]Seriously, I used to mate used to make me sick off season being like I have to get myself fit here. Like I can't believe it. Used to make me sick to my stomach. Just like training. Yeah. literally train. If I could have just given anything to not train and just play games, I would have just given the world for it.

[00:16:04]>> I was the opposite.

[00:16:05]>> Yeah.

[00:16:05]>> Yeah. Cuz I just felt like >> we would have been a good player together. [laughter] >> Put us together.

[00:16:10]>> It just But I I guess everyone's So maybe if you're a fringe player and not a fringe player, like I can't even say I was a fringe player because I really wasn't only for probably one year. But [snorts] the performance to like I was like, "Oh, does Skoey respect me? Does he like me?"

[00:16:28]like wonder what Simo's thinking about me. Um it was I was just so worried about things I couldn't control in in the game aspect of things. So I guess I got so focused on the things I could control which was you know the extras, the swims, the touch, the food I put in my body, >> um all that sort of thing and but then still got so caught up on, you know, am I going to be in the vision at training or the waffle clip or you know things like that. Um, yeah, it was just wanted everyone to like me instead of respect me. After my first year, it became a like over respect thing.

[00:17:04]>> Oh, that's a good one.

[00:17:06]>> Yeah, >> I had advice very early on from um from Darren Glass who like I >> as a footballer like very much looked after and he said you can be two things.

[00:17:17]You can either be liked or respected and you don't you don't usually get to do both. If you if you get to choose one, >> you want to be respected. You can be liked by lots of people, but being respected is what you need to do. And maybe [ __ ] I don't know. Maybe I should have been spreading that word a little bit more. What was what was the what was the best footy moment you had West Coast? I remember you kicking some good goals. What was it? What What do you reflect back on as a footie player for West Coast representing a club, which I'm on your brother's team here. So, you play 15 games for West Coast. is a 50 more than literally anyone else >> other than about I don't know 200 people.

[00:17:55]>> What's your favorite footy memory with the with the jumper on?

[00:17:59]>> With the jumper on?

[00:18:00]>> Yeah. On the field. Come on. I'll test you out here. Give me something.

[00:18:04]>> I debut is hard to go by. Like >> Yeah.

[00:18:08]>> Which is always like that's a pretty easy one, but St. Kilda uh co hub was probably the highlight. So we had a fair few boys out. Um that was Hammer's first game and playing in that because it was myself, Hammer, Oscar, Jared, P, Liam.

[00:18:28]It was the boys that I got drafted with and we all played. Every single player that actually got drafted in the national draft >> played in that game.

[00:18:35]>> Was it the Gaba?

[00:18:36]>> Yeah, >> remember?

[00:18:37]>> Yeah, it was the And we like were told we shouldn't win and all this sort of stuff. We had heaps of boys out and that was easily the highlight just but the after it like um >> I remember >> sitting around and getting a photo with the boys and just hanging around. We had like there was beers in there, boys had a few drinks.

[00:18:55]>> I remember that.

[00:18:55]>> Yeah, that was that was probably one of the biggest highlights um >> for me just to you know I really cherish those boys that I got drafted with and then to you know all do the thing we wanted to do together was yeah pretty pretty cool moment. Um, and at the same time I nearly got bashed by Zack Jones at the same time cuz I was tagging him.

[00:19:16]So, um, [laughter] yeah, which was, yeah, that was scary. But [snorts] that that moment was outside getting, you know, drafted. Um, but mate, one of the biggest highlights, and I don't think I've ever told him, um, captain's run for my debut, uh, JK asked me to be his kicking partner cuz Buty had left Sam Butler, my biggest hole of my career.

[00:19:40]him asking me to be his kicking partner and I remember three years in and I wasn't playing and Jared Cameron was playing so camo like sort of took my spot when they were playing on game day was so jealous hated that and then I always felt like I was letting JK down cuz I wasn't his kicking partner game day and all this stuff but him to ask for that and then to him to go mate this is your only chance I'm only asking you once you can be my kicking partner this is the only chance you get if you say no then I'll never kick with you ever again in my life. And I was like, this guy was my hero walking in and I'm like, bang. Um, yes, I'll take it. And TB was like, oh, like I was going to ask you, too. But I'm like, no, JK, you're my >> So, we're talking pre-training kicking partner for those ones. And you know, you >> Some guys were pretty loose with it. Go with anyone, whoever's available to grab a ball. Some guys like Josh, like Sam, >> like Luke Shuy, um, like me were like locked in. Yeah. like this is a good So you were Josh Kennedy's guy >> after Butsy >> highlight mate.

[00:20:43]>> I love that. That's a good highlight.

[00:20:45]>> That was pretty cool. One the grace of the game.

[00:20:48]>> Yeah, that's unbelievable. I love that.

[00:20:50]Um so like I said up and down. Um we're speaking about where you got yourself to. You you're um hospitalized because of your weight loss. You're in a really bad way mentally. you have struggled with elements of performance anxiety, all of those things. Um, people who are listening who who might be sort of like sort of listening on being like, "Oh, I've got elements of that." Maybe not all of it. You know, everyone's different, but how what what was the sort of first steps to kind of get better maybe or even just getting back to healthy? What what can you think back on what actually started the turnaround for you? Not like what helped >> fix you.

[00:21:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. But like what what actually just started it?

[00:21:34]>> Three words basically. I need help.

[00:21:37]>> Yeah. And and literally that's what it was. I need help.

[00:21:41]>> And saying that to myself in the mirror when I was in hospital I was got him into hospital. I was in there for 2 days. And the only reason I went in was because um you know certain members of my family called me up were crying and was all right. I'll go in. And I got um tricked, I would say, by the doctor said, "Mate, we just need you to come in and do a couple tests over the weekend and then, you know, you can go out, but we need you on a Friday and then you'll be fine. Couple tests and we'll let you out maybe a couple days." I was like, "All right, sweet. I'll go in. I'll be out by Monday. Sweet. Check the weather.

[00:22:12]It was crap weather on the weekend. Lots of footy on." I was like, "Beautiful.

[00:22:15]I'm not going to miss anything." Went in and then um got told, you know, basically you you won't be out of here for a while. And I was like, there's nothing wrong with me for two days. And then I couldn't pick myself off the ground. And um then I walked into my um room, went into and looked myself in the mirror and I said, I need help. And those three words just from then on sort of changed everything cuz I finally admitted it, accepted it, and I was like, "Okay, now I can take control, and I choose to get help." Because in life, everything's a choice. how you react to things, how you respond to things, and sometimes it's a lot harder because different things in life are tough and difficult to work through and struggles and challenges and obstacles, but asking asking, you know, for help and admitting that was easily the thing that changed my life. So, you're working with Happiness Co. now. Um, and um, I don't know exactly what you do, mate. And I'm keen to sort of hear what you do do, but you know, um, the journey you've sort of had from a a junior into elite AFL system, into performance, into uh, elite preparation into, if you can put it this way, elite mental struggles. Um, you know, you're the best, you're at least the best of things, [laughter] mate. Like, you know, all of that stuff. Has that really helped you transition into what you're doing now in terms of what you do from a day-to-day? Give us a bit of a chat through what you're working on now and how that has gone full circle feels like.

[00:23:44]>> Yeah, definitely like it's 100% that it's transitioned and helped me transition to what I want to do. Um, due to the fact that like at West Coast, you're so lucky as you would know. You get to do so many different, you know, activities. If that was Eagles Rock, my school, I used to love doing that. the clinics depending um on what time it was I guess you know but I did used to love doing the clinics and then I you the my highlight and it and it may suck is when you'd go to the hospital and do the hospital visits at the children's hospital but you get to go into the um is it the make a wish area or and you're shooting hoops with them and you're coloring and doing all that and you see their face light up. I felt felt so fulfilled every time I left there being able to I guess put a smile on someone's face. Then I tapped into Happiness Co my last year. Um met Jules, met Robbie, the crew, and I was like, "Okay, like if I get another contract then I might do some work experience anyway because I just love the opportunity to maybe give back a little bit more." Um and because I knew that I was struggling and I heard about, you know, when you're going through something, if you can just, you know, make someone's day, it makes you feel better. So I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do that." And it was a thing away from football.

[00:24:57]>> Then got delisted and I was like, "What am I going to do?" And then while trying to chase getting drafted again, I was lucky enough to start working there.

[00:25:05]And it was just learning about what Happiness Co is, what they do, and then, you know, how I could maybe help them to achieve what they wanted to achieve was something that really, I guess, lit a fire in me. And from being in hospital, it was like breaking down what do I want cuz you get so much time. It's like what brings me joy in my life. When have I felt really fulfilled and happy over the last four to 5 years? And it was probably basically it was when I connected with people, got to communicate with people and then got to have a bit of fun in life and around those sort of people. I was like, well, all right, I love connecting, but there was nothing around football that really made me happy again. So then for me, it was, well, how do I give back to other people and serve and sort of started to really tap into that? And once I got out bit healthier and fitter, I just dove straight into it and developed through the, if you want to call the self-help space. And then it started to transition into the mental performance space and you know the I found the likes of Ben Crow and Emma Murray and positive psychology and human behavior and I just sort of got so fixated on bought so many books on it all. um understanding myself and then how can I help you know the younger generation cuz you know the older generation it's nothing against them but they're pretty stuck in their own ways and it it's hard to sort of change their mindset because you've been doing something repetitively for so long but when you work with younger people you can sort of start to change their identity and what they're chasing and more about who they are rather than what they achieve. Um and for me it was always about I have to do something to be someone. um where I was like no it's who I am's first and then the basically in footy it's the person over the player um and how can you I guess start to get that into young people's minds and talk to them and understand and then so that's what I've been doing for the last four years and now it's tapping more into uh performance around I guess athletes but it's I guess a vision is to get someone to know the person over the performer or player um and I of what Ben Crow I don't know if you know Ben Crow but the way he talks about um you know basically the um human doing versus the human being and human school like there's no no one gets taught how to be an actual human. You get taught how to do algebra and how to where you put a comma [snorts] >> um and all that sort of thing but you're not taught how to be a human and how to show empathy and kindness and have difficult conversations and that sort of thing. I guess when you get put into AFL, it's like you're 18 years old, you're a young man that still probably doesn't know what it means to be a man cuz who really does these days? There's so many things out there. You're battling comparison, perfectionism, then you're getting dropped, like all these things. And then you're trying to navigate and lead your own life, but you probably don't even know what you stand for as a person through your values. Um where you actually get passion outside of football and drive and connection and all these sort of things. It just fascinates me. And um and then as you would probably know there's the element of media that if that's advertising, if that's on social media or if that's just like the news media in general like channel 7s and Fox and all that sort of stuff that critique everything you do.

[00:28:30]>> Yeah.

[00:28:31]>> It's well who is this person? And maybe if we know the person rather than the persona like the off-field person then maybe that might help in the mental health area of life. Um, >> so why I was really keen to get you on, mate, was [clears throat] >> and we speak, you listen to Back Chat, we speak about Back Chat. Um, and you're always a great fan of what we do and I've appreciated it all the time.

[00:28:55]>> But what I um what I battle with with with guests we have on sometimes I reckon sometimes you search for like, you know, profile. It's like, oh, you could get someone who's played 300 games and whatever. But I but what I think is really cool about you know speaking to someone like you you played 15 games been on a list been delisted it's probably closer to the real story that AFL players go to go go through to be honest. Now, not everyone ends up in a hospital like you and certainly you'd be in the minority there, but the struggles you're talking about, I would say the vast majority of AFL players go through those and then so when we see an upward sort of spike in something very visual like Elijah Holland for instance or um Nathan O'Driscoll's just put a post out this week um which we were speaking about before we go on.

[00:29:39]>> Chats like we're having with you right now. That's actually, you know, people listening might be like, "Oh, gee, like he really struggled." Like, you're actually probably closer to the norm than maybe others would think. I don't know what you think about that statement.

[00:29:52]>> Statistically, um, it's the basically the four to six years that struggle the most because I've been lucky enough to do some stuff with the AFL PA last year.

[00:30:02]And the four four to six, that's the average career now. But you it's not enough time to get a degree. It's apprenticeship or it's maybe some work experience but your first three years like you're focused on football.

[00:30:15]>> Yeah.

[00:30:15]>> And then if you're only in there for the average career, you come out of it, you're 22, 23 years old and what do you do with your life?

[00:30:23]>> Like where do you go? Cuz your mates are probably either trades or got a degree or nowadays entrepreneurs and making millions of dollars like every other, you know, 25year-old. It's like what do I do with my life? And and that's been one of the biggest struggles is that transition for um players and then long-term like maybe like yourself that's in there for a long time that haven't done much outside which is a bit different to you.

[00:30:49]>> Not really.

[00:30:49]>> But like that that identity piece and I think it's very it's very common but not a lot of people understand it.

[00:30:58]>> Yeah. No, I don't see enough people talk about it. So when you see Elijah Hollands and rather than break down sort of what happened, I think that's been done to death. But how do you feel when you see both the the onfield stuff that happened, the coverage that happened afterwards and then probably I don't know, you tell me how did you say that whole thing and how did you feel about it?

[00:31:17]>> How did it make you feel?

[00:31:18]>> I actually tuned in a lot to the media around it. like I I consumed so much media in terms of uh radio news for the first 3 to 4 days because I wanted to see what how they would react what they would say and how they would respond and it was all C this that that whatever we won't get into it and then it flipped 4 days after oh this guy's actually got like he's in then he got aditted to hospital admitted himself and then it became a mental health thing and then the narrative changed the whole narrative changed around it. Mhm.

[00:31:52]>> And for me it was that was sad because it was like everyone was making their own opinions and they didn't really understand how much it would affect the family until the family posted on Instagram and then everyone's narrative changed after that. Uh for me it was it was sad to see because it was just everywhere and highlighted um and people were like what's going on with this guy?

[00:32:13]This guy like posting videos just random you know supporters that were putting videos on social media. And for me that bit was um sad, but then I was also I guess proud that it it helped a lot of other people start to talk about it like you said um Nathan and that was I I called him and had a really good chat with him and like was one of the most I guess probably pretty powerful because he went into so much depth um that you that you'd see that it sort of normalizes how many players would be going through it, but how many players don't talk about it?

[00:32:52]We've obviously now we've got Nathan and then we got Elijah and then uh Bailey Smith talked about his um but there's still like nothing really getting you could say done about it or it gets in the hot like you know I don't want to bring it up too much but going into last year there was players unfortunately that you know lost their own life ex players or it was Battley Smith doing an interview when he got the coach's player or something and he talked about being in a psych board and got praised and all this all over social media, but then it goes away after two two weeks. It's done and then bring it up and then the mental health round and now it's gone. Like the Elijah Holland stuff's pretty much sort of gone now. Um, so it pops up when it's relevant and then it drifts away again, which I I get at some points, but um, yeah, I'm super proud of these BS being able to feel safe, have the courage and bravery to to speak up and to open up about it because it's not easy. And there's so many other players that would be going through maybe not to that extent, but performance anxiety or, you know, whatever it might be, some sort of depression or family issues or even finance issues that they're not talking about.

[00:34:01]>> Yeah. It's interesting as you were talking um you know when when Elijah's dad Ben put the post up like I yeah I I probably won't go as far as you know I think when I saw that it did remind me like I I you know I'm in the media um I do podcasts I do you know mainstream stuff and put seeing that was like ah [ __ ] like yeah forgot about that you know and so I'm probably not and you're not being critical but I'm probably um yeah I kind of see exactly how it happens. And I'm I'm pretty aware with this stuff too, right? Like you know, you you just kind of see the you just see the whatever the action or that you see the thing like put it this way like you see Nathan O'Driscoll inconsistent form and you're like gee, what's going on with Nathan Driscoll?

[00:34:47]He's got a wing spot to lock down and um you know not working hard at training or he mustn't be you know must be hitting his skills or whatever. My mind doesn't instantly go to like oh maybe he's struggling at home. But I I guess the best I can do there is try to have conversations with like these a little bit more often cuz it's it is difficult.

[00:35:07]Um it's probably difficult for people to empathize. Maybe I'm thinking of talking at the same time here. Right.

[00:35:12]>> Yeah. 100%. Like that's their job like your job when you commentate. Um Fox footy your jobs if you're boundary writing it's like okay like um you know Braden's just not finding the footy.

[00:35:24]He's like don't know if he's running the right patterns or whatever it might be.

[00:35:27]That's your That's your job. Your job is not to be like, >> "Oh, like um find out what's going on at home and what's happened this week and all that sort of thing." Like, that's not your gig. Your gig is to report on what's actually happening out there for everyone at home. And if I'm sitting on the couch watching and I see um you know, we can comment on certain teams at the moment that aren't going too well.

[00:35:49]>> Yeah. And West Coast.

[00:35:51]>> Yeah. And you could be like, "What are they doing? Why are they playing like do I get caught in that trap?" 100% I do.

[00:35:56]Um, but then I guess when you've been in the system, it's a lot easier to have empathy for certain things. But, you know, if you're commenting on like like it was there was radio, there was um even the commentary like this guy hasn't got a touch and he's appealing for free kicks, he's doing that. Like you Yeah, 100%. You'd criticize that and wonder what's going on. you're not thinking straight away like he didn't sleep that night or he's struggling with mental health or maybe he's just had a fight with his misses or you know whatever it might be like you don't think about that.

[00:36:26]>> So what with given your experience both as a player and then with struggles um and now in your space like working in mental health like what do you think could actually be done better like not saying like what's the solution but like what do you think could be done better?

[00:36:41]What could have been done better for you? What what do you what do you think about in that space? like how could we actually do it better?

[00:36:46]>> I think every team needs a Adrian Hickmot. [laughter] >> They absolutely do.

[00:36:51]>> Like um he my my favorite year was I got draft 289 2020 cuz he was my mentor.

[00:37:00]>> Yeah.

[00:37:01]>> Yeah. And because I talked about earlier about the person and the player, he did not care about the player. Like he did, but he didn't. He all he worried about was the person and >> it was a byproduct of the person.

[00:37:12]>> Exactly. And the whiteboard sessions were the best thing in the world. like having them with him, going in deep um first time I'd really understood what my values were, what I stood for as a person, what I enjoyed. um outside of my first year where um you may not you would have remember when you first got to the club but your first couple years you you know you don't do weights till 4:00 in preseason and this sort of stuff in the afternoon but after weights and stuff main train day on a Thursday Hick and Mitch would always they were like best mates so they would be there and it would be me Oscar Jared me Oscar Jared Patch and would just have a whiteboard session all of us and it went through all different things it went from who's the best driver um to like everything.

[00:37:54]It went from so many things. We'd rank each other. How do we get better? Who's the best left foot kick? Who's um the best empathetic person here? Like all these sort and then we would go into depth of you know so many different conversations as you would know. Um so from that I went on a tangent but the person plan like who who are who are you? And if I asked you that like who's Will Scoffield? Like I don't know how you would answer that.

[00:38:22]>> No, I'm uh not irony but I'm actually spending a lot of time in this space at the moment. Love it.

[00:38:28]>> Um so just give me a rain check. I'll give you an answer at some point but I don't know the answer is I don't know right now >> and and I don't know how many players would. So for me people mate people >> people in general. Yeah because it's like who are you? Oh I'm the accountant at I don't even know at this accounting firm or I'm a podcaster. Um, that's how we label oursel and that's how we introduce ourselves.

[00:38:50]>> So you were a footballer. You were a footballer.

[00:38:52]>> That's all I was. All I was was a footballer and then it got taken away from me and I was like, well, who am I?

[00:38:58]>> And trying to build that. So it's who am I? And >> asking yourself that question. Who are you? Because football is not who you are but it's a part of who you are.

[00:39:07]>> Right? So for me it was for me for young wonder. I have so much passion. All I want to do is work with one to four years. I just it's a massive passion of mine, but it's all about the person because the football stuff, they're way better than what I am. Because if I go in and try and teach Harley Reid or William Dersma or Murphy Reed how to play football, it's not going to work cuz they're 10 times better than I am.

[00:39:28]>> But it's about the person. And for me, I think there needs to be a person plan.

[00:39:33]So, it's getting them to really establish their values, you know, what they their hobbies, their connection, and not losing that. Um, so I think around that that area. Um, and there's so many things you can do on that which we won't get into, but >> and that would expand outside the football club because there's a lot of people here that'll be listening and watching to this that aren't footy players and we're never football players and never want to be football players, but what you're talking about um is just knowing who you are, right? Like that's not just a that's not a footy thing.

[00:40:01]>> No, >> really.

[00:40:02]>> But but >> that's the point.

[00:40:03]>> And I don't know how many people really do.

[00:40:05]>> Yeah.

[00:40:06]>> Um Yeah, it's a very good point. So being through, you know, what you went through as a player, you know, post transitioning, um, you know, where all that sits, what what's your biggest lessons you felt like you learned throughout? Like it feels like asking for help was one.

[00:40:21]>> Yeah.

[00:40:22]>> Um, what's what's some of your reflections on, you know, good and bad, like lessons you learned?

[00:40:29]>> Uh, probably no bad lesson actually, but >> yeah. Now the the the biggest thing that for me it was it's not um what I do, it's who I am. And because I was so always so focused on, you know, I have to do something to be someone. And it's that was probably just releasing that that I don't um it's about who I am, not what I do. Um was probably the biggest lesson because it was always, you know, I have to do something. I have to make a career or I have to kick, you know, five goals. I had to have 30 disposals to then be a footballer, be a good footballer. And then getting rid of that and just being who I wanted to be. And it's so easy to say just be yourself or be authentic. But it's actually really hard at times. And I'm not saying that you don't have to put a persona on in certain situations, but it's can you take that mask off?

[00:41:20]>> And for me, I never took the mask off.

[00:41:22]For the four years I was at the footy club, I was really scared to actually be the person that I wanted to be. Um, and then it came back to that like versus respected. Like not every do you like everyone? No. Does everyone listening like everyone? No. So, not everyone's going to like you. So, I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, well, how do I actually find the people that will like me for me? Well, I have to be me. How do I be me? I got to work out what that who that person is.

[00:41:48]>> Do you um do you think about when you're really in a bad way and you're heading towards being hospitalized? Do you do you ever think you wish someone you ever wish there was something someone told you or you had advice or you had advice as a kid or or you had you know someone told you something before you got there? Like >> it's it's a battle that I've been this this year especially something that I've been you know asking myself um due to the fact that would I still be playing footy? I don't know. Would I still be playing AFL? I'm not sure. Like I honestly couldn't say because if I was uh my first year like I was like 82 kilos I was like imagine if I stayed like that or put a bit more muscle on and maybe I did become a full-time inside mid and I'd still be playing like I don't know you can't you know we all got a PhD in hindsight like if I went back into that but now the lessons that I've learned then hopefully I can help other people so they don't go through them. Um, so I think like yeah, it all happens and you can say everything happens for a reason and and all that sort of thing, but then you know you you sort of think like, oh, wonder where I guess it's the wonder thing. Wonder where I could have been, what I could have done. But now it's like, okay, well that's in the past. You can't do anything about it. You can learn from that. You can help other people so they don't go through it.

[00:43:09]>> Um, >> yeah.

[00:43:10]>> Yeah. Because I wouldn't be half the man I am today, half the person. um wouldn't have met some of the my best mates to this day if I never went through that or got delisted or um even wouldn't have met certain people in football, made certain connections um post football if I never went through all of that.

[00:43:30]>> What would you tell your younger self like now knowing everything everything you got? You got drafted, you played your downs, your lows, your deepest.

[00:43:39]What would you tell yourself if you could tell young young Baba?

[00:43:43]>> It's not what you do, it's who you are.

[00:43:45]And then it's on the back of that, it's how you treat people. Um because like that's just from my own experience. I've always worried about getting validation and if I I get coming back to it that I have to do something to be someone.

[00:44:01]>> I love it, mate. Um I love the vulnerability. I love just hearing your story and you know I realize we got an hour here and you touching on your life so we could we could probably extend it a little bit but I have never been a long time since I've seen social media go like this. You have mate we're putting out you know Mark Howard Howie he runs the biggest podcasting sport in the country mate how he's no one really people love how but people are very interested in what you have to say so it's time for social media >> favorite segment >> all right so I thought you'd like that this is not social this is social media time for the people to ask you the questions you have a lot so look we got a little bit of time left but you know do what you want with these Saxon says why did West Coast get rid of when they had no other good young talent. I think we've covered this a little bit.

[00:44:51]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:52]>> Was around your physical state or >> Well, yeah, physical and ability. I've lost ability through the physical. Yeah.

[00:44:58]Like when you when you're 12 kilos underweight trying to vers Elliot, there's no chance you're going to be able to compete. Yeah.

[00:45:05]>> Filthy says, "Huge love for Ba doing great things out of footy now. Would be great to get a perspective of what damage keyboard warriors can do to players. I believe Braden was played out of position for what it's worth and he had been given a wing roll. If Gaff left, uh, he would have thrived.

[00:45:19]>> He got given a wing roll and still didn't thrive. So, [laughter] no. Thanks, Phil. But, um, I that's that's a hard one because you got to, I guess, have the criticism from keyboard warriors to be able to answer that question, which I never did.

[00:45:35][snorts] like you know like I didn't so I can't speak to that experience but through people that I've talked to it can have massive effects if you really do read into it and you're honestly you're probably better to answer that than what I would I would assume you would have got a few messages but players got messages I remember Oscar living with him some of the messages he used to cop through his inbox like yeah >> and that was back when probably was loved yeah um now you know he's left the footy club I reckon that it would be full of But >> mate, keyboard warriors, I don't know.

[00:46:08]Yeah, >> like like it depends to the extent like maybe >> but it's like they're not >> I've pretended for a long time they don't affect me at all.

[00:46:17]>> I would say that it does >> significantly. a death threat like >> yeah I haven't had anything like that but you know it's it's an interesting one like you know I told you before I've um killed all social media not because of keyboard warriors because of what socials do my brain basically and I just I've enjoyed being present in my life so less about keyboard warriors and more about what socials can do for people um I think in moderation it's But that's where I've landed on anyway.

[00:46:51]>> Yeah, it was full. Like I used to post a lot about the runs I would do and stuff like that and I'd cop messages about that like, "Oh, you're so egotistical.

[00:46:59]You're cocky." Or >> so that's why like I stopped cuz I was just like, "Oh, like maybe that is making other people feel like crap."

[00:47:06]>> Uh Jackson says, "What would you change about the way the AFL goes about mental health?"

[00:47:10]>> I guess I sort of talked about it. Yeah, that one. Yeah, >> men's mental health round.

[00:47:15]>> What? What?

[00:47:17]It's >> that's my question. Obviously, >> it's a interesting thing like >> do you think it's a bit clickbaity a bit?

[00:47:24]>> It will be because there's so many things that go into it. There's where you what's the where's the money go that you raise funds for if you are there's so many charities out there that are doing great stuff. It'll work in this space. How do you choose? Cuz they all want a bit of it.

[00:47:36]>> Um yeah, but there could be like I think Daddy Thomas said a full shutdown. So the whole like for 5 days it's just a shutdown and that's your reset. I was like that's a pretty cool take on it.

[00:47:47]like maybe um you do that.

[00:47:50]>> I had heard him say that.

[00:47:51]>> Yeah. Which I thought was pretty like because it's all about you know mental health and this that but it's like yeah well maybe it's okay let's switch off and relax for a bit.

[00:48:00]>> Odin says how does the club prepare players for life after football both for those delisted and those retiring? Um I can both probably speak to this. Is loss of purpose and identity a struggle? I think the back end is loss of purpose and identity we've talked about which which can be >> 100% if you don't do something within the game like outside of it.

[00:48:18]>> Um >> what about prep for life after footy?

[00:48:22]>> For me there there there wasn't any but it's because you got to sort of take it on your own terms as well. So the PA have got so many like I said I was lucky enough to do some stuff with them last year and they are amazing if you want to tap into them like incredible. they will do anything like they get sometimes get a bad rap but the PA will do anything for you and I know I've experienced that as a pass player and I wish I tapped into it more but as a 18year-old I was bit scared to go up to a older like a PA delegate and say mate like can I have a bit of cash to help me do this or can I do that or where do I go for this so that's why I want to work to the one to four years cuz I think I'd feel more comfortable in asking someone that's you know a little bit older but same path way. But yeah, there's so many opportunity if you want and it's so easy as an NFL player to tap into a business >> to say, "Oh, like I've my day off. Can I come in and help?"

[00:49:17]>> My my reflections on what the club did for life after footy, they they probably couldn't have done much more like that that there's so many opportunities in the AFLA.

[00:49:25]Ridiculous amount of support there. Um, of which post career I've accessed a lot.

[00:49:32]>> But as a player, and I always come back to this, like I was just so focused on performing as a player.

[00:49:39]>> Yeah.

[00:49:39]>> Just trying my guts out and then and it's my identity too that you know well I I didn't think about love after footy as much as I should have >> which which is interesting for me sitting here and listening to that because you're >> some of your best mates have made unbelievable like JK what he did off field gov was on the phone 24/7 walking into a meeting about plumbing or >> you know TV and that got the McGovern Foundation. Yeah.

[00:50:04]>> So that's and Masto with wines and everything that he was like. So that but then I know your your nature as well.

[00:50:11]But >> then there's B like myself that were like no I'm just playing football and that's it. I'm not focusing on anything else. Not studying nothing like so yeah it's on the player and >> you got to take it. It's it's you know in the end the responsibility lies with the individual I think. So the support's there whether or not you take it.

[00:50:27]>> That's probably where the club and AFL can improve. Helping guys understand it.

[00:50:32]Couldn't do it for me really. I, you know, I had to forge my own path.

[00:50:34]Couldn't do it for you.

[00:50:36]>> That's not really on the club and and but you know, how do you find better ways to do it? Maybe having someone like you in there would help. Um, far out, man. This is ridiculous. You got so many. Uh, Seth, do you do you think the draft age would be moved should be moved back? We might have to rapid fire some of these. Do you think the draft age should be moved back? Um, if so, what to?

[00:50:54]>> No, I think it's No, I think it's good.

[00:50:57]>> Okay, very good. Um uh sorry uh Anelise, what's the one daily habit that's non-negotiable for your mental well-being? Yes.

[00:51:09]>> Uh for me it's connection and exercise.

[00:51:14]>> Okay, that's two.

[00:51:15]>> Yeah, that counts.

[00:51:16]>> That's two. [laughter] >> Um I like that though. Uh you got a bit of a mixture for both.

[00:51:22]>> Um >> that's Jordan. I love the question, man.

[00:51:27]Like literally, you could do a podcast on this. I'll ask a question.

[00:51:30]>> I'll give a brief answer.

[00:51:31]>> I don't know if you'd be able to.

[00:51:32][laughter] Jordan, what do you believe is your purpose in life? I mean, maybe you can give a short answer, but that's a that's a heavy question.

[00:51:40]>> Yeah, I'll give a short answer. To be a genuine empathetic No, sorry, I'll let me scrap this. To be a genuine kind, empathetic dude that wants to make the world of someone else's day better through his actions.

[00:51:50]>> All right, I like that. That's the elevator pitch right there. I like it.

[00:51:53]CJ says, "As an Esperence local myself, um I'm sure you saw a fair share of raw indigenous talent. Any thoughts on what we can do to help those lads take the next step into the AFL?"

[00:52:07]>> I did see Yeah, I did see a lot of talent. Best is best indigenous Willy Rioli, but he's already there, but Well, he was there.

[00:52:16]>> Um >> I Yeah. Do you Do you remember the show Recruit?

[00:52:21]>> Yeah.

[00:52:21]>> Yeah.

[00:52:22]>> Matty Eagles.

[00:52:22]>> Matty Eagles. Yeah, great.

[00:52:23]>> We played against him at >> Yeah, we did two in the hub. I was abusing him.

[00:52:27]>> I love your hub stories, too. Every time these boys talk about them, it's so Yeah. [clears throat] Anyway, Cholley.

[00:52:32]Um, [laughter] >> oh no, Cholley.

[00:52:36]>> Um, but yeah, so there's Whan. I'm pretty sure it was Whan. He was in the first. He was like the best footballer.

[00:52:44]>> I remember Whan. I remember watching this. Yeah.

[00:52:45]>> Unbelievable, mate. He played in Espirans. Oh, really? Yeah. And freak.

[00:52:49]Like, I'm talking freak, mate. like and then he went on the show and then yeah, he was incredible. Um but there's no like I think um I can't wait for Brad Hill to retire as bad as this sounds because I think him um and Jaman Impi and Chad Wingard's already doing it. Um I think what they will be able to do for indigenous players will be huge but they can't obviously do it now. Uh I can't speak to what they can do because there's probably so many things pathways that >> you probably know. You probably got to get an indigenous person's opinion.

[00:53:23]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know the challenges and they're so different to what we go through.

[00:53:27]>> I agree. Now this is a good question. I wanted a little bit of a longer answer on this one. Jay says, "What was the AFX AFLX like to play in?" Do you play AFLX?

[00:53:34]>> Yeah, it was so fun.

[00:53:34]>> Really >> loved it. Oh, actually I loved our train. I love training for it because we used to >> You pissed me off.

[00:53:40]>> We we smashed years, man. like our our 20 our team, we used to do it for preseason. We used to smack you boys and it was so fun. And then we got there and we were trash. [laughter] Um but it was it was so fun. My first travel trip um Adelaide good. I loved it. I had so much fun. Yeah. Really enjoyed it.

[00:54:00]>> Was the Super Duba goals available then?

[00:54:01]Was that sort of those sort of areas?

[00:54:03]Like where did you play?

[00:54:05]>> We played >> at Marvel.

[00:54:07]>> No, I suppos No cuz it was in Adelaide. We weren't even at Oval. It was literally at like Yeah, something like that. It's like on a soccer field.

[00:54:17]>> Yeah, literally. I swear it was.

[00:54:18][laughter] Yeah. And I remember in Side Bottom.

[00:54:21]>> Um and we played with a silver footy.

[00:54:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. It was sick. And I was I was rolling around in silver boots that Gaffy gave me.

[00:54:28]>> Silver Z. Really?

[00:54:29]>> Yeah.

[00:54:29]>> So you were wearing silver boots and you had a silver ball.

[00:54:32]>> Yeah. And I had a little scrap with there's a photo of uh Nathan Murphy.

[00:54:36]>> Yeah. Great guy. Legend, too.

[00:54:38]>> Iron Man, right? [laughter] Yeah. So fun though. Yeah. First travel trip and it was all the young boys so it was sick.

[00:54:44]>> Yeah. We sent the like the spot over there was he?

[00:54:47]>> Yeah.

[00:54:47]>> So mate Liam Dugen learn how to be the captain X mate. That's his start. That's his trajectory >> mate. Um we are coming towards the end of the episode and as a back chat fan you will know the final question we answer and ask is >> how does Braden like his eggs? Sincerely the egg man.

[00:55:05]>> This I was on a run this morning. All I was thinking about dead sales. How do you answer this question when [laughter] you're depending on what mo mode mood I'm in? But uh I I actually love a like a fried egg that's like still a little bit runny but not too runny because the poached eggs sometimes are too runny for me. It just goes everywhere on the plate.

[00:55:26]>> Yeah. I didn't get any yolk where like a a little fried egg on some sourdough.

[00:55:31]That's good. Bit of salt on there. Yeah.

[00:55:32]Salt and pepper.

[00:55:33]>> Yeah. Crack that on there.

[00:55:35]>> Nice. Yeah, that's good, >> mate. I, uh, I didn't really have any idea where this direction was going to go and just sort of let the wind take us and I thought it was a really great chat. So, um, appreciate you coming on, being vulnerable, but the main messaging out of it, me just listening and like very, very rarely speaking, it was just like hearing your story. I think it's really I think it's a real one like um, and you know, I suppose um, I suppose it's not sad. I suppose like hearing how bad it got for you, it sort of makes me feel um Yeah. Yeah, it does.

[00:56:08]It makes me feel sad for you. But knowing where you are now, what you're doing, um making a difference, like proud of you, mate. It's awesome. So, thanks for joining us on back.

[00:56:16]>> Cheers, man. I appreciate having me and it's um I love catching up. It's been great.

[00:56:19]>> Now, you can say you're a back guest.

[00:56:21]>> I know it's that is something I'm going to hold very high. Like, you know, I'm very passionate. I love it. So, it's >> Josh Kennedy kicking and back [laughter] guest. Put them up on the board. Well done, mate. Thank Thank you.