Atheist Asks A MUSLIM About The Problem Of EVIL!

[00:00:12]Hello.

[00:00:13]>> Yeah. What's up, h?

[00:00:15]>> Hey. Hi. How are you?

[00:00:16]>> Good. Good. How are you?

[00:00:18]>> I'm good, thank you.

[00:00:19]>> All right.

[00:00:20]>> This isn't for Christians only, right?

[00:00:23]>> No, it's non-Muslims in general. Yeah.

[00:00:26]>> Okay. Um, so I just want to have a question first of all.

[00:00:29]>> Sure. Before you ask, can you just tell me what you do believe if you believe anything?

[00:00:33]>> I'm an atheist.

[00:00:34]>> Okay. Sure. What's your question?

[00:00:36]>> Um, so my question is is the who in Islam goes to hell forever. And who does not?

[00:00:46]>> So typically disbelievers will remain in hell eternally. So those who do not accept the true message of God will remain in hell eternally and the ones who do not are those who have even an ounce of proper faith in them or uh sorry in Adam's way of proper faith.

[00:01:04]>> And disbeliever I'm assuming means someone who's heard of the religion before.

[00:01:09]>> Yeah.

[00:01:10]>> Okay.

[00:01:10]>> So heard of it and rejected it. Yeah.

[00:01:13]>> If they haven't then that's not included in it. Right.

[00:01:16]>> Right.

[00:01:17]What happens to the ones who >> it depends actually it depends about the ones who haven't heard it. So uh they would be broken up into two categories because you could still come to a conclusion of monotheism and then have a separate test on the day of judgment. Um but if it's the case that they still like they didn't hear about it and they still were polytheist then that person would still be in hell because that's something that's intuitive.

[00:01:43]But then if so if if they never heard of it and they're going to get tested afterwards. Isn't that kind of >> n it's not it's not that they're getting tested afterwards. It's to show whether or not they were actually going to be believers or not had they heard of the religion. So what this test is going to look like what it's going to be specifically it's not something which is to our knowledge but this is the position that we take in terms of people who haven't heard about it but still remained monotheists and were upright people and so on. Okay. So, we don't know what the actual criteria for that test is.

[00:02:16]>> No, it's something that is going to occur on the day of judgment. This is the position that I take to it.

[00:02:21]>> Okay. And um just a problem that I have with I think not only Islam but a lot of other religions as well. Um is just the idea that I think a lot of the time it comes when it comes down to going to hell forever or eventually getting out of it or not even going to hell in the first place. I think a lot of the time it comes down to actually believing in the religion or not rather than being a good person or not being a good person.

[00:02:48]>> I might be wrong but >> from my understanding >> um if a Muslim for example is a bad person but he believes in the religion eventually he will or she will eventually be removed from hell. No.

[00:03:01]>> Yes.

[00:03:03]>> That same uh sort of rubric isn't applied to someone who isn't Muslim.

[00:03:08]>> Right. Because the main thing that we're meant to do is to acknowledge and recognize what it is that the true creator wants us to to do. Right? If you don't do that, then the punishment is eternal hellfire. So, um the one who is able to establish some sort of punishment like that would be the unknown creator. So, um the the issue isn't with regards to being good or bad.

[00:03:32]Okay? Because there are things that we can know intuitively about uh in terms of being good and bad, right? Um but the issue is is how is punishment going to be established or you know a reward going to be established for said good or bad thing. How do we know what the equivalent or uh righteous punishment or good thing that or reward sorry that is going to be given towards that particular action that's committed. You understand >> right? So the one that would know the best in regards to that is the one who would know all facets of said action.

[00:04:02]Right.

[00:04:04]>> Mhm.

[00:04:04]>> Yeah. But then I I also kind of feel that in my opinion at least because this is subjective but I think I think eternal hell is a bit disproportionate.

[00:04:15]>> Well, how would you know? Do you know all facets of this belief or anything of the sort?

[00:04:20]>> No. But if we can't fully comprehend it, then we are going to come to a conclusion that isn't ultimately the true idea of God. Right.

[00:04:29]>> What? According to what? Because if we cannot fully comprehend all these sort of motives for God, everything he does just because the fact that we are human, right, we're unable to comprehend it.

[00:04:41]>> No, that doesn't follow. No problem. Uh, no, that doesn't follow cuz you don't need to know all facets of something in order to acknowledge or recognize something as being good or bad, right?

[00:04:52]Or having or outweighing something in terms of goodness or badness, right? Uh like for example there could um there could be something that we uh that we view or perceive as being uh bad right and the reason as to why we we view it that way is because it outweighs the positive as aspect of it right uh like for example uh or even the opposite goes as well right like going to the gym.

[00:05:16]Okay. Uh somebody who has never heard of going to the gym before has never seen these people do something like this before or anything. um if they just walk in there and they see these people are, you know, uh engaging in some sort of strenuous activity to the point where they're actually like quote unquote harming their bodies cuz your muscles tear and all of these different things.

[00:05:35]One would look at that and say, "Oh, why are they doing this to themselves? Like this is something bad, right?" But then they don't know the actual positive aspect of it as well, which is that you are going to, you know, be more fit, get stronger, your muscles will grow back and all of these different things, right?

[00:05:51]>> Mhm. So just because they don't know all facets of it doesn't mean that we could actually come to um that we can or can't come to a conclusion of said thing outweighing in terms of positive or negative aspects. Right.

[00:06:03]>> Yeah. But um that kind of ties into like for example the problem of evil. Um sometimes we can't really see the good that comes out of suffering or at least not good that outweighs the suffering.

[00:06:14]Mhm. But then the the issue with the problem of evil and the reason why I don't see it as an issue in terms of uh religions like uh like for example Islam or Christianity is because they already have an acknowledgement of the fact that these things are going to occur. I'm not going to focus on Christianity obviously because I'm not here to defend Christianity, right? Um but in terms of Islam, we already acknowledge the fact that evil or things that are negative are going to occur because they're being used in order to test us, right? So Allah he says that uh you know we we do not for example burden an individual more than they can handle. Okay. So something being perceived as negative or uh perceived as positive could entail something of a negative aspect or a positive aspect as well. Okay. And on top of that we account for it. We know that these trials and tribulations that we go through are things that are in order to test us to strengthen our faith or to see who of those people is going to be uh of the true believers. You understand? So if there's an account uh there's an account or some um some sort of uh reason or justified reason as to why it's the case this is occurring then there's no actual problem it's just going to be the case that the paradigm accounts for it. Whereas like if you're going from like a deistic standpoint the deist doesn't have an account for it right why is it the case that uh what we perceive to be this perfect being uh which is all good and all these different things allowing for this to occur there's it's a non-answer for them you understand >> Mhm. Yeah.

[00:07:42]>> In Islam, is there an explanation for why this test exists in the first place or is it not something that's really addressed?

[00:07:47]>> Yes. So, in I believe it's in chapter 7, let me get you the verse. So, we believe that there was a covenant which was taken with all of the uh human beings uh prior to us coming to earth. And it's a covenant that we don't remember.

[00:08:02]However, we have natural inclination towards the disposition sorry disposition of belief. Um this covenant uh was essentially you know uh God informing us that we were going to be tested and us agreeing to this test and um uh essentially agreeing to come into this world and do these things in order to uh receive the reward of paradise.

[00:08:23]Okay.

[00:08:25]>> So we have an account for why it's the case we're here. We have an account for uh how we even got here to begin with, how we agreed to it. It's not something which is done against our will or anything of the sort. So all of that is accounted for within Islam. Now there are other paradigms that don't actually account for that. I would argue that Christianity doesn't account for that, but that's a bit of an argument that I'm working on right now. That's that's different.

[00:08:48]>> But okay, earlier you mentioned was it I'm not sure if it was a verse or if it was something along those lines. You said God doesn't burden a soul more than they can bear.

[00:08:57]>> Yeah, it's in that's in chapter 2 verse 286.

[00:09:01]And is that in context of like when they're alive, right?

[00:09:05]>> Yes.

[00:09:07]>> But would someone who commit then technically be >> careful careful with the language. Okay.

[00:09:12]But uh no, sorry.

[00:09:14]>> So so there there will be two perspectives to that. Okay. This is the the verse. It says Allah does not require of any soul more than what it can afford. So it depends on the individual. If it's the the only one first of all who knows the intentions between um of of an individual is going to be either God and the individual themsel. If they genuinely are not able to take this right then and they were to commit said act of unaliving themsel uh then that would be that would be something that God would know. Okay.

[00:09:42]Hence being that they would not actually be held accountable for this particular thing. Okay. Um that would be that would be one opinion that that that would um I think that's the stronger opinion in terms of what the scholars say regarding that. So it's taken into account for the fact that they didn't they they actually couldn't bear it and this was see this would be seen as a quote unquote mercy in that case because they wouldn't be held accountable for setting. But then there are individuals who you know uh they could unalign themselves over something that isn't actually completely overburdening them or anything of the sort. They're able to get through it but they just decide they don't want to go through it. Okay. And then in that case that person would be falling into disbelief because they are not you know actually adhering to uh the proper um you know belief for anything of the sorts and they're just trying to end it for themsel. Okay. And if they if they if by doing that they fell into disbelief that means they go to hell even if they're Muslim. Right.

[00:10:36]>> Um I'm not too sure in terms of that. I don't know if it completely entails like full disbelief or anything or if they would receive a particular punishment um that they they would uh eventually be released from. That's something that God himself would uh would take into account on the day of judgment. I I haven't read too much in terms of uh unaliving oneself. But that's that's the general understanding that I take from it and what I've read from before.

[00:11:01]>> Okay. Um but I just want to go back to the sort of problem of evil.

[00:11:05]>> Okay. Would you would you agree that um something isn't good if the evil outweighs the benefits or the harmful attributes of it outweigh the benefits?

[00:11:18]>> Yeah. But in order to be able to come to a conclusion like that, you would have to be able to know all facets and you would have to know all of the future effects of it and everything of the sorts. Right.

[00:11:26]>> That's that's not humanly possible, right? We can't know, >> right? That's that's the point. So then there wouldn't actually be this quote unquote problem of evil. It's just something that's being posited based off of our perspective of things, right? But our perspective isn't an ultimate perspective. Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:11:40]>> But but from our perspective, right, since we literally cannot know um the whole image, right, cuz we're physically unable to do so because of the way we're created. Um that means we're objectively we're going to come to the wrong conclusion. Even if we even if it aligns with God's plan or if it doesn't, it's still it's not right. Exactly.

[00:12:00]>> Come to the come to the wrong conclusion of what? for example like give give an example >> as for example like we can't get the full image correctly because that's not possible for us right >> that's why we need guidance though >> yeah but the image ultimately for us is going to be flawed right >> yeah which is why we need guidance >> guidance towards >> towards what would be yeah towards what would or would not be considered a good or bad thing like um like uh let's let's say for example right uh drinking okay we know that there's a lot of harms that come out of drinking and ultimately the evils outweigh the bad sorry the goods right >> however there are certain benefits of uh alcohol and all of these different things uh like for example there are certain treatments that people do where they require that the individual after said treatment they drink the beer in order to be able to uh you know uh actually be you know properly functioning I guess you could say it's like a sort of medicine that they try to prescribe regarding that or the same thing with like medical marijuana Right.

[00:13:02]>> Mhm.

[00:13:03]>> Right. The the evils can outweigh the goods, but it doesn't mean that it's completely and inherently something which is negative in in its totality.

[00:13:10]Right.

[00:13:11]>> No, I definitely not.

[00:13:12]>> Yeah. So, just because something can uh outweigh in terms of evil doesn't necessitate the idea that it is in and of itself evil or that we can never use it for any sort of beneficial thing either.

[00:13:23]>> And then eventually that that good could outweigh the the the evil if it's the case that people start using it in the right way. Right.

[00:13:30]Yeah. But for example, if something when it comes to something for like for example, say an animal, a baby phone that gets born into the world and gets eaten like within maybe 35 40 minutes of it being born. So its whole life just consisted of it being born and then suffering.

[00:13:46]>> Okay.

[00:13:46]>> Right. We might say >> we don't know the positives that come out of that. So we can't really judge.

[00:13:51]>> Right. Cuz we can't we don't know.

[00:13:53]>> No. Well well when it comes to other things aides from humans. Okay. So the account of quote unquote good and evil is going to differ. Firstly, when it comes to animal animals, they don't think of these things the way that we do. So they're not thinking of, oh, this is a good thing to eat xyz thing. Of course not.

[00:14:08]>> Okay. And and the amount of quote unquote suffering that they go through is not to the extent that we go through either. They don't feel or you know think of suffering in the way that we do or you know account for it in the same way that we do or anything of the sort.

[00:14:21]That's one thing. And then the other aspect of it again this is something that would be accounted for in Islam.

[00:14:26]you know that animals they're not thing they're their animals and every other thing which exists all we believe submits to God. So they're already things which would be granted goodness later on anyway. Whether it's the case that they're um you know eaten alive in the in the first few minutes that they're born or they live out their entire life and die of old age. The animals and trees and plants and all of these things, the earth, the heavens, all of these things already submit their will to God. So this is this would be like a non-issue in terms of Islam. But there is no afterlife, right?

[00:14:56]>> There is an afterlife for them. No, there is.

[00:14:58]>> Oh, there is. Yeah, there is. Really?

[00:15:00]>> It would be there. Yeah, it it would be it would be an account for for with regards to them specifically. The whole point is is that uh it's accounted for within Islam. The fact that they already submit to God's will, how they would get there. Like for example, we have uh narrations that talk about birds that are going to be in paradise, right? Uh there's narrations that talk about specific animals that are going to be there as well. But the the one with birds is the one that I remember in specific. So, >> and are and are those the same souls of the animals that were here on on earth or maybe they're like sort of heavenly animals that aren't exactly the same?

[00:15:32]>> I don't know the answer to that.

[00:15:34]Ultimately, we we know that they submit their will to God. So whether even if it's the case that they do or don't, the whole point is that they already submit to the fact that this is what's going to occur to them in their life. They know that it's something that's just inevitable. Whether it's that they uh live a long life or live a short life, they know it's something which is inevitable for themselves and they submit to that will >> submit to it as in they >> they're accepting of it. Yeah. Not not like humans. Not like humans because they're they automatically do it. Humans are not automatically doing so.

[00:16:05]>> No, but I mean like they didn't have a choice before their life like humans did because you said we had a choice to go through the test or not the covenant.

[00:16:13]>> Not to my knowledge. No. It's just something that is intuitive for them, you could say.

[00:16:19]>> So, they submit their will, but in what way would that be?

[00:16:23]>> It's it's an acknowledgement of the way of life. If you look at the animal kingdom, for example, there's not really much fluctuation that goes on unless there's some sort of uh disturbance in the in the um ecology, right? Uh so for example, if there's like um a volcano goes off and it messes up the the ecosystem of a particular region or anything of the sort and it messes up the the animal kingdom's uh way of functioning there, right? That's the only time where we ever will see a disturbance that occurs. But it's still not going to be the case where like you know a lion after a volcano uh a volcano erupts or something, let's say, or a tiger is just going to drop down to the lowest part of the the ecosystem, right?

[00:17:03]it still stays consistent.

[00:17:06]>> But then even if they do submit their will to God, why not if God is all good, why not sort of let them submit their will and then make them live.

[00:17:15]>> But you're supposeding that.

[00:17:16]>> Yeah. That's that's supposing that they have the same functionings as we do, right?

[00:17:21]>> No, but they do feel pain and emotion, >> but it's not to the extent that we do, right? The reason why we say that there is good and evil in regards to us is because we could actually feel those things and contemplate on them and so on.

[00:17:33]>> Yeah. But a bit a mother dear wants to see it child get eaten will feel grief.

[00:17:39]It will feel not in the same way as humans of course anything like but it will feel sadness and sorrow and the child while dying will feel pain >> for for a moment right for for not as long as we would though right >> no not as long as we would but it still does >> okay wouldn't there's no issue with it >> but wouldn't it be more merciful for God to have them live a painless life while also submitting uh to his will >> what's what's the what's the the whole point is that if they do submit to it and they submit to the fact that this life is not something which is permanent. The way that we when we recognize that this like when you recognize that belief is what's necessary in all of these things, we recognize the fact that this life is not that permanent and therefore we submit our wills to God and we recognize that these things are going to happen because they're necessary to occur. They're trials and tribulations that we go through, right? But they already automatically know it.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah. But it's necessary to occur because God made it that way and we agree. But we also agreed to it.

[00:18:42]>> We did as humans.

[00:18:44]>> Yes.

[00:18:45]>> But the animals they >> the animals don't need to because they already created that way.

[00:18:49]>> Yeah. They live they create it that way cuz they live in a different creation.

[00:18:54]>> That way to survive.

[00:18:56]>> Yes. And there's no issue with that.

[00:18:58]It's like the same thing as like saying okay if I made a robot okay and that robot is able to somehow develop emotions and feelings and all these things but I just hit the shut down button on it okay does that is that something which is evil or no if it depends if you can if you can make if if you let the robot go through pain and suffering physical pain let's not take emotional because they can't really comprehend it okay >> in this scenario right physical pain.

[00:19:28]>> Yeah. Like, have you have you been seeing I don't know if everybody's for you page is the same, but there's like been like videos of like uh you know, robot robots playing soccer or robots walking down the stairs and then falling. Okay. And then they start spazzing out as if they like actually felt that. Okay.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah, I've seen that.

[00:19:44]>> Okay. But we know that they don't actually feel anything, right?

[00:19:48]>> It's just malfunctioning. Okay. But it's still something which looks to be as if it's pain, right?

[00:19:56]But then but you're not saying that animals don't feel pain, right?

[00:20:00]>> I'm not saying that they don't feel pain. I'm saying the whole point is that they submit to the fact that this is something inevitable. If they submit to the fact that it's inevitable, then there's no actual issue.

[00:20:11]>> Can you emphasize on that?

[00:20:12]>> Yeah. Meaning meaning that if they know from the moment that they're born, okay, that irrespective of whatever they they go through with their lives that they're there's going to be some point in which they're going to pass whether it be immediate or later u like you know deferred like they live an old life and everything of the sort then there's not there's no issue with the fact because they already know it's going to occur to them regardless how it occurs when it occurs why it occurs is not going to make the difference.

[00:20:42]Yes, that's true. But I think wouldn't it be better? Not better. Okay. Cuz we we attribute things to God like being all good, all merciful, right?

[00:20:51]>> Mhm.

[00:20:53]>> Wouldn't it be more It sounds a bit weird, but more all good for God that they acknowledge him and all that stuff, but they live a painless life, especially since they don't really comprehend uh the idea of God in any way.

[00:21:07]>> Okay. But again, you're you're equating that pain that they go through in some sort of way that like the way that we would go through pain when I already explained that it wouldn't be the same.

[00:21:16]Firstly, and secondly, they're in submission to it. And third, there could be a way where it's paid off for them later on, right? I don't really know why we're hinging on animals anyway though, like the whole thing started with humans.

[00:21:27]>> We can swap it to humans, right? like a a baby that uh dies at a very young age, >> the parents go through a lot of grief >> and pain and suffering.

[00:21:37]>> The baby will go through a lot of pain and suffering. Now, you could say for the baby it's a greater good cuz they go to heaven. Babies go to heaven, right?

[00:21:44]>> Yeah.

[00:21:45]>> They're going to go to heaven. But say if the parents for example end up taking their uh and aliveing themselves.

[00:21:50]>> Mhm.

[00:21:52]What do you think is the overall sort of effect that via the baby being sick came into the world? Was it positive or bad?

[00:22:04]>> One second. One second. One second.

[00:22:05]Sorry.

[00:22:17]Uh sorry. Um what what's the why why is it the case that this is occurring if it's the case that they end up disbelieving and they unal alive themselves and such.

[00:22:24]>> Yeah.

[00:22:25]>> Okay. Very simply because it's a trial and tribulation, right? Everybody goes through trials and tribulations. If it's the case that you fail the trial, then that is going to be your own personal fault, right? Cuz you're not the first person whose child has died before they did, right? And you're certainly not going to be the last. Just because you feel like it's something that Hold on.

[00:22:46]Just because you feel like it's something that is going to be, you know, um uh hurtful or painful to go through at the moment doesn't mean that it's not something that you could get past, right?

[00:22:57]>> If it's a case like they they go into insanity, then that's different because we also believe that the individual if an individual goes into a um mode of insanity, then the pen is lifted from them, meaning that they're not judged for any of their actions. If it's the case, they end up insane.

[00:23:12]>> Mhm.

[00:23:12]>> Yeah. And and actually somebody somebody else gave a good point that I forgot about. If um if the mother ends up be like passing the test let's say and she becomes a Muslim or she remains a Muslim that child that died whether when she was giving birth or whatever would actually be a reason for her being pulled into paradise. There's there's a narration that talks about the fact that the umbilical cord would be the connection between the mother and the child in order to enter into paradise.

[00:23:37]So there's a number of different things that would actually come out of it that would be good. And if it was a girl uh well actually number one that that doesn't really apply to this number but >> is that if they die in the womb or outside even after >> I believe it's both. Yeah. So it's it's both in that case.

[00:23:53]>> Both. But wouldn't you say that by God putting that cancer or whatever illness in the child the the overall effect that it had on the world was more bad than good. depends because if what hold on first of all let's just say okay it's something that has a effect that would be overall net negative to the world okay but the world is not the only point in which we're talking about here because there would also be an overall net good that is going to be which is that they gain paradise after right but excluding or separating the two in terms of bad and good that's that's arbitrary we we wouldn't we wouldn't have to accept that >> but would they gain paradise for example if they end up um leaving the religion for example and then dying maybe like 40 >> the parents years later.

[00:24:39]>> Yeah.

[00:24:40]>> Yes. No, they wouldn't they wouldn't end up in paradise because there's no reason for them to leave the religion over that.

[00:24:45]>> So then there was a net negative >> in regards to them. No, because that would still be a positive. If it's the case that the person themsself is recognizing that they're not going to, you know, be proper believers and all these things, then that is going to be a distinguishment between them and those who are actually deserving of it. If you're not deserving of something proper, uh, then there's no reason why you should be rewarded for it. That's that's not going to be I don't I don't understand how you would say that that would be a ne negative because there's still >> it's not negative because they were >> if they continued on the path pathway that they were on say and then >> Okay, but but hold on. So, like for example, when we put somebody in jail for doing something wrong, okay? Are we are we putting them in jail and that that now becomes a net negative because they're in jail?

[00:25:31]>> No, you're you're saving other people, right? You're saving other people from the actions of said person, right?

[00:25:37]>> I don't see how that how someone a baby dying and then >> No, the baby is the baby thing is separate. We could just keep it general to somebody who was believing and then they disbelieve. Okay. No, no, but I'm talking here because I don't think it's an illogical conclusion to come to that.

[00:25:52]The parents become disbelievers after their child dying, >> right?

[00:25:58]>> I don't think it's illogical for them to come to that conclusion.

[00:26:00]>> It's not It is illogical. Why would you have to leave your religion just because your child dies?

[00:26:05]>> Because, for example, if they don't if they >> No, that's illogical. That that's that's thinking with emotion. That's not logic.

[00:26:11]What are you talking about?

[00:26:14]It's it's it's not a maybe logic is the wrong word here. But I don't think say they start looking into philosophy afterwards.

[00:26:21]>> Uhhuh.

[00:26:22]>> Right.

[00:26:22]>> But that's presupposing that the problem of evil is a good argument. It's a argument when it comes to religion in general because religion already accounts for these things occurring.

[00:26:31]Whereas a theistic standpoint would not, which I already addressed that in the beginning.

[00:26:37]>> Do so. Look at look at this way. Okay.

[00:26:39]If you could substantiate a religion to be true. Okay.

[00:26:43]uh via some sort of uh data that we have such that we're able to observe this data and come to a reasonable proportion or probability that this religion or this belief system is going to have a higher probability of uh being a good representation or accurate representation of reality in comparison to all other belief systems then there's no reason why you should reject the more probable conclusion. Okay? And that's that's the way that we would view it with regards to Islam is that you could come to that conclusion. Now if it's the case Islam is able to account for said things that we view as negative occurring through this understanding of trials and tribulations and so on then the individual who is a Muslim would recognize that this is a trial or tribulation. Now that doesn't mean that they can't lose faith or they they lower in faith. But the ultimate point is to see whether or not they're going to completely leave the faith or if they're going to recognize the fact that this is something which was meant to occur as a trial or tribulation for them in order to strengthen them or see how how strong they would end up being in their belief.

[00:27:41]But if they just simply leave based off emotion, then there's no there's no actual accountability in terms of um sorry, there's no account as to why they would leave the religion for some sort of logical reason. It would just be based off emotion. Even the problem of evil in and of itself is going to be more of an emotional argument to begin with if you're presenting it towards somebody who has a religious paradigm that accounts for good and quote unquote evil.

[00:28:04]The thing is with with I think the covenant and the thing with the animals for example addressing the problem of evil is that I don't see how that still equates to not equates I don't see how it still addresses the fact that God can do it another way that still inflicts less evil and is objectively more good not objectively but that is in my opinion more good onto the world.

[00:28:28]>> Okay. But if they already agree to it then there's no need for him to do so.

[00:28:32]You're just saying that he you because you view it in this way that it has to be some other way, right?

[00:28:37]>> Yeah. But then we can't really remember that. So that's just like >> what do you mean you can't remember that? What do you mean >> the covenant for example? We can't remember taking the covenant.

[00:28:45]>> We can't remember taking it. But there are certain predispositions that we have such that we're able to come to that conclusion such as our intellect. We could use our intellect to be able to observe certain things uh such as the revelation itself. come to the conclusion of whether or not it's something because obviously there's multiple different beliefs that claim the idea of receiving revelation from God, right?

[00:29:07]>> Right? Like Christianity, let's let's compare to okay Christianity is some if we want to know which of these is actually going to be a true religion from God, we're going to evaluate the scriptures, right? We don't want to go based off of emotion. We don't want somebody to come to us and say the Holy Spirit tickled me and now I'm I'm a Christian, right? We don't want to say like I saw, you know, XYZ individual in a dream and now I'm XYZ religion. Right?

[00:29:26]We want to observe it for the data that it actually has to present such that we're able to build some sort of foundation. Correct?

[00:29:32]>> Mhm.

[00:29:33]>> Okay. So, the way that we would do that is by first coming to an understanding uh through natural theology of what a possible perfect being would be like.

[00:29:42]Okay. And the natural conclusion that we come through through natural theology is going to be based off of certain omni properties, right? Particularly omniscience. Correct.

[00:29:51]>> Omniscience. Can you define that?

[00:29:52]>> Omniscience just means all knowing.

[00:29:54]Yeah.

[00:29:55]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:29:55]>> Okay. There's typically when we talk about this uh when it comes to philosophy of religion and such there's seven that they come to. Uh the one of those omni properties is going to be omniscience. All right. Now when it comes to omniscience or being all knowing, right? Naturally, if it's a case we're positing the idea that there is said being that exists, said perfect being that exists and it it contains all knowledge or has or possesses all knowledge, then it's the case that whatever sort of religion, if we're positing even that there's going to be some sort of interaction that he's going to have with the creation, right?

[00:30:27]um then it's going to be the case that this uh interaction that he has is something which would be uh reflective of that knowledge. Correct?

[00:30:36]>> Yeah.

[00:30:37]>> Meaning he can't like make mistakes or errors or contradictions or anything of the sort in order to be able to portray this message to said creation. Right.

[00:30:44]>> Yep.

[00:30:45]>> Good. So once we're able to come to that conclusion, we're able to evaluate each and every single one of these belief systems. Right. From from and I'm not talking based off of opinions of right and wrong. I'm talking based off of like uh things that we're actually able to test, right?

[00:31:02]Like for example, if somebody says 2 plus 2 is five, we're able to test that and see that it's wrong, right? Whereas if somebody says I like vanilla over chocolates, um that's that's not something that you test as right and wrong. It's just uh based off of the person's opinion, right?

[00:31:16]>> Yeah.

[00:31:16]>> Right. So this is what we would do. And once we're able to do that with every religion, my argument is is obviously that Islam is the only one that's actually going to hold up as opposed to any other belief. Atheism is not going to give us any sort of answer. It's just a non-answer. It's a I'll wait and see.

[00:31:32]Uh agnosticism is still an I don't know.

[00:31:35]Theism doesn't actually account for many of the arguments that you're making in terms of the problem of evil. Whereas Islam actually accounts for it has a proper paradigm. It is well structured.

[00:31:43]It does not have any errors or contradictions. And it can also substantiate the idea that it's coming from a being which is all knowing. Okay.

[00:31:51]Such that this information that is contained within said religion is uh information that was inaccessible at the time that it was revealed.

[00:31:59]>> Do you know somewhere I can read more about that uh covenant and sort of the the things you're saying now?

[00:32:07]>> Uh I could try to send you some stuff.

[00:32:09]I'll follow you from my other accounts.

[00:32:10]Uh well I sent you a request. I could try and find some stuff and send it to you by all means. Okay.

[00:32:15]Yeah. Okay. I'll accept it and I'll DM you.

[00:32:18]>> All right, man. No problem.

[00:32:19]>> All right. Thank you very much.

[00:32:21]>> You, too. Good night.

[00:32:22]>> Yep.

[00:32:25]Wow. I think that's the first time I had a conversation with an atheist that actually didn't end in uh yelling or anything of the sort.