NEW ATF RULES: Do I Still Need An NFA Trust | Active Self Protection Extra

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]Hi everyone, welcome to Active Self-Protection Extra today on John's Briefs. I want to talk with Tim Forshey again at Barristers and the guy who runs Forshey Law about there's been a recent change that the ATF is making and of course whenever the government gets going I hate it but this one is a good change where a husband and wife can register their NFA items jointly.

[00:00:27]>> Yeah, there's actually a bunch of changes almost all of which I'm very happy about yeah, good stuff. Pretty good for the most part. This one in particular though I heard a couple people say well John that's great and now you don't need an NFA trust anymore.

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[00:01:04]So what do you think of that idea Tim that now oh we don't need an NFA trust anymore?

[00:01:08]>> Well it's that old Mark Twain quote that the the rumors of my death have been over over overstated or exaggerated or what.

[00:01:14]Yeah I mean candidly I think it does there this may make it a moot point for some folks right? If it's just me and my wife or just me and my husband and we want to get a class three firearm or we don't have kids we don't plan to have kids we don't have any other close family or whatever. Yeah I mean if you can save you know a thousand dollars here and there what the heck right? I if you don't need it you don't need it. I think it still presents a problem though in the event of the death of both parties what's going to happen to it then? If you do have kids and they're on the trust you've handed a gigantic problem to them. A giant problem.

[00:01:39]>> If you if if you and I are shooting buddies and you borrow my truck and the suppressor or the SBR is registered to me and it's in the back seat and you're on the Costco same problem we've always had right? So so just because we've got one relationship that is probably less necessary than it once was which is great. Uh there's still a lot of other relationships we all have in our lives.

[00:02:00]I've got several other people besides my wife on my NFA trust.

[00:02:03]>> Sure. Um and I think that's that's usually a wise thing to do. You don't want to just list your spouse because again, it leaves the problem of your heirs and close friends, uncles, brothers, siblings, those there's no exclusions for them, so. Yeah, the successor trustee issue is a big one.

[00:02:17]Yeah, I'm not I always kind of try to talk people out of a successor trustee because they they still have to be a responsible person.

[00:02:22]>> Of course.

[00:02:23]>> Um so they have to jump through the same hoops.

[00:02:25]>> But arguably they they don't have the rights to the firearms even though I think they do, but you can make an argument based upon the way it's worded that they don't have the right to the items until all the trustees have predeceased them.

[00:02:34]So I'm always like, well, who do you trust enough to be a stand-in trustee that you don't trust enough to be a trustee now? Okay.

[00:02:41]>> There's just I don't see an advantage to to listing as a successor trustee rather than rather than a co-trustee because they would have to pass away before it would go to a co-trustee anyway or a successor trustee anyway, so. I suppose a co-trustee is just easier because it gives you more flexibility.

[00:02:53]>> you more flexibility sideways, exactly.

[00:02:55]>> Okay.

[00:02:55]>> that's the easiest way that I recommend is just you know, just and I don't care if you've got eight co-trustees as long as they're all people that you implicitly trust with your treasure because if I'm your co-trustee, I can sell your stuff which you bought, but the trust owns it and that's me and you, baby, and I can legally sell anything I want to and there's no legal recourse because I co-own it.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah, so you you're not going to put your casual buddy who wants to borrow your suppressors to go shoot out in the desert, okay? You're not going to do that, guys.

[00:03:18]>> No, this is people that you would call family. They might not be blood relations, but people that you would take a bullet for. That's the kind of people you trust that much, yeah. And to me, you know, my wife and I travel, we travel internationally, we you know, we go places and do things and of course there's always risk in those things or you just go drive to dinner for golly gosh sakes, you know, you both die in a car wreck or something like that. And if your items are registered to you and your spouse and you both die in an in an incident and you don't have that thing in place, you've handed them a giant boondoggle.

[00:03:46]>> Or even if it's if it's you and your wife on the on the trust and you die, and your wife owns the things legally, but she's now basically a a sole possessor. Yeah. Again, do you have heirs? Are there other people in your wife's life that she might want to have access to the items, etc., etc. So, it's never a bad idea, I think, to have a trust. I think there's just a That's definitely the smart way to do it. Yeah.

[00:04:05]Yeah, if if I had somebody who whose spouse died and had NFA items, and then they become the sole person and they go, "I don't know what to do with these."

[00:04:14]>> Right. My first words would be, "Put them all in a trust." And then list whoever else you want in that so that you don't have any more problems.

[00:04:20]Exactly. You know who who Or if your spouse dies, let's just I mean, if it was unexpected and you were young, that's a big challenge, but even if you're older, does your elderly spouse want to deal like if they're not into it? And I think I've told you the story before. I had a case, this is probably at least 10 years ago, but I had a case where husband died, husband was an avid gun collector, and wife mourned for I should probably over 2 years. I mean, like was literally chronically depressed, couldn't get out of bed, just really took the loss hard. He was a young man. Uh by the time she finally opened his gun safe to start figuring out what to do with his gun collection, it had been over 2 years. And lo and behold, she found a couple machine guns in there. So, she got She called me cuz she didn't know what she was supposed to do.

[00:04:57]>> I mean But there's worse things to find.

[00:04:59]However, when I started When I started contacting ATF about doing a Form 5 transfer incident to death tax-free back then, we don't have to worry about the taxes now. Well, machine guns we do.

[00:05:09]The The ATF was like very adamant, "Why did you wait 2 years for this? What's going on here? Were these items being used for the last 2 years? Can you prove they weren't being used they weren't being used nefariously?" I mean, they took a really dim view of that delay there. So, with my wife, it won't be a problem. She's my co-trustee, but before she was my co-trustee, my wife will grieve, I think, probably until the end of whatever sitcom she's watching, and then she'll start selling my stuff.

[00:05:29]>> I doubt it.

[00:05:30]>> quick. Yeah, so.

[00:05:31]>> it.

[00:05:32]>> [laughter] >> But it But it The real reality is that grief is real, and that can take some significant time.

[00:05:37]>> And I got him to understand that finally. But again, attorney's fees and time and risk and worry and sleepless nights, so it's like this just It solves all those problems. And And of course, if for most of us, I would guess, when we're talking about NFA items, we're talking about suppressors and short barrel shotguns, generally speaking.

[00:05:50]>> yeah. You know, the machine gun owning folks, you know, you're you're talking about a a nice car >> Yeah. as the cost of a machine gun. I mean, you can't pick up a a full auto M4 for less than 30, 40 grand these days.

[00:06:02]So, and so, I mean, I ain't got that kind of money, so Well, and with forced reset triggers, yeah, do you really need it is probably not a thing that you that you need to worry about anymore. And and also full auto is not a defensive purpose, really. It's just kind of dumb.

[00:06:16]It's fun. I mean, It's a party It's a party trick. It's a novelty. It is fun.

[00:06:19]And if you've never And if you've never shot a machine gun, folks, you need to you need to go to a gun range that has them and rent a machine gun because it is They used to say it was the most fun you could have with your clothes on.

[00:06:29]There's a lot of fun things.

[00:06:30]>> I'm at the age now where it's just pretty much the most fun you The most fun that you can have. Yeah, so. Uh we call it a giggle switch for a reason.

[00:06:35]And a giggle switch does exactly that.

[00:06:37]You can't do a dump of a full mag in an MP5, a real MP5, without just really having fun. My wife and I had a bet 10 years ago. I can't remember what the bet was, but it was one of the rare bets that I actually won. And the bet was if I won, I don't know what it was if she won, but if I won, she had to shoot my machine gun and she couldn't complain about it. She had to try it. And sure enough, she did it. True to her word, she went to the and we went to the to the range and she I loaded it up, showed her how to do it, held her, made sure it wasn't going to go into the ceiling, and tried to get her to fire short bursts, and she pulled the trigger once, dumped 30 rounds, turned to me with the strangest look I've ever seen on her face, and said, "Fill it up."

[00:07:14]>> [laughter] >> Which I said that makes And my wife Yeah, she liked it. She ended up firing like three or four magazines. It was Wow, I couldn't believe she enjoyed it.

[00:07:19]She did though, yeah, so. So, I do think an NFA trust is still wise. I think from a practical perspective, right? For most people, is it a few hundred bucks? Let's be real, if you're getting into the suppressor and short barrel game, you're already spending bunches of money, right? You know, if if you're worried about, "Gosh, man, it's going to cost me a thousand dollars for a trust." Your first good suppressor is going to cost you more than a grand. Yeah. And and I'm not I'm I'm not trying to be cavalier and I'm not trying to be elitist and I'm not trying to say, you know, oh, stop being poor. Like I I understand all that. I'm saying if you're getting into this game, you've got money.

[00:07:52]>> I will say this, if you're going to get into this game, uh have an attorney prepare your trust for you once. You don't want to do these, you know, you get a trust for each item that you get through some of the websites that were out there that we won't necessarily name today. Uh but you want a one-and-done trust that will adapt and change that could be amended, uh that is a living document that you don't ever have to worry about changing. You want to do it once and be done. So, cry buy once, cry once. And and by the way, if anybody is ever interested in doing that, John is very kind and always promotes that. But if you refer to the channel, if you know this is a referral from John's channel, I will definitely uh it'll be a 50% rate on the on the trust. I always do that.

[00:08:22]So, There you go. I just have never said that before, but I'm not going to market it that way.

[00:08:26]>> you go. Tim Forshey Law, right?

[00:08:27]forsheylaw.com. And and again, I I want you guys to understand, Tim doesn't get paid to be on the channel. Tim You know, I do. I get to hang out with my buddy. So.

[00:08:36]>> And and this is not a paid relationship in any way. Like this is just a good dude who uh I know I I know good dude and lawyer they're very rarely in the same sentence.

[00:08:48]>> you're wrong on one of those, man. So.

[00:08:50]There's very rarely in the same sentence, but there are good ones. I think having an NFA trust makes sense.

[00:08:55]It it I I'm very glad for mine. I'm not huge into that. I don't have any machine guns, but I do have uh a number of suppressors. You guys have seen the shotgun suppressor that I've had. And uh I I am now haven't done it yet, but I think I'm going to short barrel my MP5. I think right now it's got a pistol brace on it.

[00:09:14]>> For moving around the house, that's the way to do it. I think uh you know, putting just putting a stock on it rather than a brace. I'm like, I mean, form four now I'm hearing it's taking like uh 60 days, something like that to come back.

[00:09:25]>> I've done my last two form fours on suppressors were about a week.

[00:09:28]>> Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, form one for the short >> Form one for an SBR, yeah.

[00:09:31]>> Yeah, SBR is a form one, sorry. I'm you know, And uh That's if you make it yourself rather than if it's a form four, if you buy one that's already made. If you start it yourself, it's a form 1.

[00:09:38]>> Right, yeah. So, uh I've heard those are about 60 days.

[00:09:42]Fine, it can stay in safe the way it is for the next 2 months.

[00:09:44]>> pistol sock on it. So, you get it, right? Leave the pistol brace on it and then we put that on there, but uh I think I'm going to do that just for funsies, but having all that in an NFA trust. So, then that way there's it's just it just removes an issue of worry.

[00:09:56]And uh then of course, you let the people who are co-trustees know that, "Hey, and not only these are the items that are are on it and then there's a list on it, but here is where that paperwork is." And should be in a place that is uh fire safe, right? You know, that that's not going to get destroyed in a fire. Um I I remember your your good residential security containers ain't going to last forever.

[00:10:21]Uh so, having something beyond that I think is wise for important documents uh like I I'm a big fan of trusts in general.

[00:10:27]Like I have a trust for the entirety of the >> Your living trust for your estate planning is very very important. Living trust, very important.

[00:10:32]>> And by the way, that brings up another point. A lot of people confuse the two.

[00:10:35]Well, I've already got a living trust, can I just put the stuff in? No. No, that's a >> An NFA trust is simply for the ownership and acquisition of of uh title two firearms. So, make sure you understand that. Yeah. And can be, you know, as part of and poured into the entirety of your >> I would link it. I wouldn't necessarily pour it in, but yes.

[00:10:51]>> Link it link them to See, lawyers, they do lawyery things. I go, "I just want it to be part of of this stuff that's over here." And they go, "This is the words we use." And I go, "Sweet, do the words."

[00:11:00]>> And also, a lot of people want to put their title one firearms into an NFA trust. And in most states, most definitely Arizona, there's no advantage to that and lots of disadvantages.

[00:11:07]There's no reason to do that. So, you can put those in your regular will or your regular trust as bequests. This this gun goes to this person, this gun goes to this person. As long as you don't live in a restricted state like California or New York, that's very easy just to do as bequests just like a like a vase or a you know, a Hummel figurine, whatever. And you want to do that. I have so many friends who, you know, when dad dies and then they get in a big fight about about the various rifles and the old stuff that dad had it safe and you know, that was mine, no, it's mine.

[00:11:33]If you just go, nope, here's the bequeathal list, here's who I want to have everything, and then that way it's not a fight. Uh as somebody who has had to deal with uh estates for grandparents who've passed, and even parents who have passed away, make it easier. Make it easier for them, because otherwise it gets ugly. So, do you need an NFA trust? Well, I mean, I don't think you needed one before. Yeah, I mean, no, it's not necessary to own a title two firearm. It just is it's a smart way to do it. It's uh you're I think you as a way now, you can buy it as an individual, or as a corporation, or as a trust. And of those three, the trust is absolutely the best way to do it. Now, there might be a fourth category here now, because there's right now you they only have individual, trust, and corp. So, if I'm going to buy it with my wife, or, you know, register with my wife, that's not an individual anymore. So, they're going to do spousal? I mean, I don't know yet. Don't forget [clears throat] these are proposed rule changes. They have to be out for 90 days of comment, blah blah blah. We'll see how it evolves. What, the government is a mess?

[00:12:24]Hard to believe, isn't it? It doesn't know what they're doing, and creates problems with every rule they make? Who knew? Who knew? Come on. All right, well, there you go. Again, if a trust is in your future, holler at Tim. He would be the one that I would suggest. It's a federal document, right? So, it doesn't matter which state that there's in.

[00:12:39]>> as it's the one of the 43 states where title two firearms are legal. Yeah, right. So, don't try to register a title two firearm in California. You will have struggles with that, or they >> Although, if you're a California resident, and you have a close friend who's in Arizona, and the item stays in Arizona, you can be a co-trustee on a on an item that's in Arizona, for instance.

[00:12:56]So, I'd recommend him. Hit the link in the description. Tell him that you're a fan. He just said that he's giving % off. That's a great deal. So, hey, that's who my one is, and yeah, now you're educated. Tim, thanks for the dis- Take care. You bet you. I always