How Polygamy Affected Utah Politics BH Roberts I Religion & Politics I Church History Matters EP06

[00:00:00]Can Latter-day Saints serve in government?

[00:00:03]>> The church is trying to project an image of strict political neutrality in order to secure statehood.

[00:00:09]>> Roberts was really influential uh during the movement to establish Utah's statethood. But he also offended a lot of people because he was against women having the right to vote. By 1898, Roberts became the Democratic nominee for Utah's atlarge congressional seat and he actually wins. Ordinarily, that would have ended the story. As a result of his nomination, this huge national controversy erupts. When we say national controversy, it was not a small one.

[00:00:42]Roberts did remain a practicing polygamy.

[00:00:45]>> They thought if he was seated in Congress that it would mean the nation was accepting polygamy. Throughout the US, 7 million people signed a petition demanding that BH Roberts be denied. And this whole episode just leaves behind big, big questions. This is a super precarious time.

[00:01:05]>> Hello, Scott.

[00:01:07]>> Hello, Casey.

[00:01:08]>> Good to see you again. And um we are continuing our um uh series on the church and politics. In fact, last week we talked about Moses Thatcher. This is sort of like the part two of of the um turn of the century political manifesto uh series. We got to talk about Moses Thatcher and then today we're talking about BH Roberts and then next time Reed Smood. It's kind of like the Star Wars trilogy of Latterday Saint political involvement.

[00:01:38]>> Political drama. Yes.

[00:01:40]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:49]Let's drop back into where we begin with this series briefly and kind of catch us all up to speed here. So, at the very beginning of the church, we kind of started out with practically no separation of religion and politics among Latter- Day Saints, right? Like like we talked about how Joseph Smith served as the mayor of Nauvoo while he was the president of the church. Uh then he runs for president of the United States in 1844 and he like literally called missionaries to act simultaneously as proceliters for the gospel and elections for his campaign.

[00:02:22]Like you don't get more integrated than that, Casey.

[00:02:25]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when when the saints cross the plains and they begin to settle in the inner mountain west of of North America, the ecclesiastical leadership of the church and the political leadership of the Utah territory tended to be the same people.

[00:02:40]So for instance, uh Brigham Young served as governor of the Utah territory and the superintendent of Indian affairs and the president of the church all at the same time. and the 13 members of the Utah Territorial Council and the 26 members of the Utah House of Representatives were 100% church members and leaders.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. And and to be fair, like this is pretty inevitable because there weren't many other people in Utah territory at the time. They kind of had the place to themselves for a minute, right? And so the early 1850s Utah era actually is like the closest the church ever came to participating in a theocratic form of government which is interesting. Um and and there were no doubt some advantages to having this type of intertwined church state overlap. Uh but there were also some disadvantages and some complications that it introduced. And perhaps the best example of such challenges is what happened in their 1852 debates about authorizing slavery in Utah. Right.

[00:03:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. And what we've tried to do is is contextualize this within the larger national history of America. So keep in mind that after the United States won the Mexican-American War, which is 1846, it acquires a massive chunk of territory known as the Mexican session. That includes modern-day California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, parts of New Mexico, parts of Colorado. And the burning question at the time was, will this new land be slave or free? After California became a free state in 1849, the United States was perfectly split. They had 15 free states and 15 slave states, which kept the Senate in a delicate balance.

[00:04:30]And to prevent the country from fracturing in two right then and there, Congress came up with what was called the compromise of 1850, where they gave the settlers of Utah and New Mexico territories the right to vote on whether to allow slavery in their territory rather than having the United States Congress make that decision.

[00:04:50]>> Yeah. So that's the major reason that we find uh governor/president Brigham Young and the Utah legislature/urch leaders uh debating this issue in early 1852, right? Like and we pointed out that it's in his speeches while Brigham Y. Young was advocating for a sort of benevolent form of slavery to exist in a limited way in the Utah territory that he also introduced some erroneous theological teachings about black Africans that directly contributed to the racial priesthood and temple ban that will endure into the 20th century, which needless to say has been a difficult legacy to wrestle with. Right.

[00:05:31]Yeah, we've wrestled with a lot of the ins and outs of that legacy for many hours on past episodes of this podcast.

[00:05:38]So, if you want to do a deep dive on that, uh, just scroll back and find our episodes on race and the priesthood, which is one of the first things we did back in 2023. So, >> yeah, >> that leads us to where we left the story off last time, which was near the beginning of the 20th century. The Saints wanted the Utah territory to become a state uh in the Union, which would allow them uh greater self-determination and a lot less federal interference. So, they'll apply for statehood seven times over 40 plus years, but they were consistently rejected by Congress primarily because of two things. Polygamy and theocracy.

[00:06:17]>> Yeah. The church ending polygamy and Utah becoming a state go hand in hand, right? So to make a long story short, both the severely punitive laws that were passed by Congress meant to crack down on the church's polygamy and President Wilfr Woodruff's revelations on what to do about this ultimately led him to issuing the manifesto aka official declaration one in our scriptures, which led to the end of new plural marriages in 1890.

[00:06:47]So, they're going to apply for statehood again in 1894 with this stipulation satisfied and they're going to be admitted into the Union in 1896.

[00:06:57]Yes. But, but maybe less wellknown, but just as important for statehood was the political alignment and the integration of the Saints into the two national political parties, the Republican and the Democratic parties. We we talked last time about how since 1870, the Saints had actually formed their own political party in Utah, which was called the People's Party, which was by far the dominating force in Utah politics. And their opponents, who were kind of a mixture of federal leaders and non-Latter-day saints and former or disaffected Latter-day Saints, formed what they called the liberal party uh to oppose polygamy. They were also opposed to communal economics and the church's sort of stronghold in Utah politics.

[00:07:42]>> Yeah. And national political leaders in Washington DC made it clear that Congress would never grant statehood to a territory whose politics were split strictly along religious lines like that. So to win the prize of statehood, Utah's leaders had to systematically dismantle their local political system and align, as you said, with the two-party system in broader American politics. And honestly, the manifesto in 1890 made this a lot easier because by removing polygamy from the equation, the central pillar of the local liberal party's platform and Washington's primary objection to Utah statehood was suddenly gone. Uh so now what remained for the saints to do was to decide which national political parties they would align with. Uh and as people might guess, Casey, most Latter-day Saints chose to align with the Republican party. Right.

[00:08:39]Actually, no. Um what might surprise a lot of people today is that when given the choice, the vast majority of Latter-day Saints tended towards the Democratic party. And this may have had something to do with the fact that the Republican party was created in large part to eliminate polygamy. Uh and and that for the past 30 plus years, it had been Republican presidents and Republican leaders in Congress that had led to the anti-polgamy crusades against them and passed these kind of draconian, these brutal laws that strip the saints of their civil rights. Yeah. Okay. Maybe that had something to do with it.

[00:09:17]I I could see I could see how that might put a bad taste in one's mouth toward a political party.

[00:09:24]>> Yeah. And not only that, but but national Democrats had generally defended states rights and local autonomy and Democratic appointed officials in Utah had historically been a lot more lenient uh towards the saints.

[00:09:38]>> Okay, so this is going to create a real problem for church leaders, right?

[00:09:42]because they knew that if 90% of Latter-day Saints became Democrats, then the local non- Mormons would automatically become Republicans. And this would just preserve the exact same old religious warfare in Utah, just under new national names, which would then signal to Washington DC that Utah hadn't actually changed. Mhm.

[00:10:03]>> So to satisfy Washington, the church required a roughly 50/50 bipartisan split to demonstrate political stability in Utah. And because they had to artificially kind of manufacture a Republican base out of thin air in Utah, church leaders essentially had to sort of force feed Republicanism to the population. This is a really interesting moment in Utah history and they're going to do this through a couple of deliberate strategies maybe we should talk about again.

[00:10:35]>> Yeah. So, first the general authorities that includes the First Presidency and the 12 deliberately divided themselves between the two national parties and church leadership even pushed uh kind of the the heavy hitters into the Republican column to validate the party to skeptical members. So, we're talking like George Cuchanan and Joseph F.

[00:10:55]Smith, who were both in the first presidency, they both kind of affiliate with the Republican party. And then apostles like John Henry Smith and Francis M. Lyman, they affiliate with the Republicans. And also other general church leaders like Emiline B. Wells, who is the general relief society president. She affiliates with the Republicans, too.

[00:11:15]>> Some big names going Republican here.

[00:11:18]Try to persuade church members to at least go 50/50 on this. Uh, another strategy though, my my personal favorite because of its shock value, uh, is that in in several rural towns, like local bishops would literally stand at the pulpit or at a town hall meeting and they would divide congregations down the middle of the room uh, and heads of families on one side of the aisle were instructed to organize the local Democratic club and on the other side to become the new local Republican group.

[00:11:47]And I mean, can you just imagine that, Casey?

[00:11:50]>> That would be a little different. Um, so you kind of have to be careful where you sit. Like did they know in advance what the Republican side was going to be and the Democratic side, right?

[00:12:00]>> Um, that would have been that would have been crazy.

[00:12:02]>> Yeah. Careful where you sit in the pews on that day, right?

[00:12:05]>> Yeah.

[00:12:06]>> And and and one more strategy we should mention is that President Wilfr Woodruff also allowed Republican church leaders to actively recruit and organize partisan clubs while traveling on official church business. But he asked prominent Democratic church leaders to temporarily hold back from doing so. Uh now that that rubbed some Democrat leaders wrong and even leads to conflict among church leaders as we talked about last time.

[00:12:36]>> Yeah. Because I mean the Democratic party was the natural home for most saints during this time. And some some leaders who went democratic did so with immense personal passion, often clashing with the first presidency's desire to keep things quiet. And the most prominent of these was the apostle Moses Thatcher, who we talked about last time.

[00:12:56]Thatcher was a fierce uncompromising democrat who campaigned so aggressively uh that it caused friction within the quorum of the 12 and he felt the first presidency was violating church and state separation by overpromoting uh the republicans. And some church leaders like actually feel that Moses crossed the line when he ran for the US Senate as a Democrat in 1895 without here's the key thing without asking the first presidency's permission first. Um he ends up losing that race but the damage was already done.

[00:13:32]Remember, so kind of put yourself in this situation. The church is trying to project an image of strict political neutrality to Washington in order to secure statehood, which has not been done yet in 1895. They'll get there in January of 1896, but like this is a super precarious time for Moses Thatcher to be just going out, you know, as this apostle Democrat. There's this kind of unwritten rule at the time. Okay, this is important. It's an unwritten rule that high ranking church authorities like apostles needed to get permission from the first presidency before running for public office so that it won't look like the church is officially backing them or using its power to dominate local politics. This is the thing. This is kind of the the uh unwritten social situation that he seems to be violating.

[00:14:23]Right.

[00:14:23]>> Mhm. When Elder Thatcher openly campaigns without church clearance while at the same time like vigorously criticizing church leadership's perceived favoritism toward the Republican party, he's accused of being out of harmony with his quorum. Yeah. So in in April 1896, this is just months after Utah officially achieved statehood and the the Senate race concluded, the the church issues a policy called the political rule of the church, or as it's known today more commonly, the political manifesto, which requires all church officials to get approval before they take political office. And Elder Thatcher, this is what our last episode was about, refused to sign it on grounds of personal conscience and political independence. And as a result, he was stripped of his apostilhip and he was removed from the quorum of the twelve apostles. Though he does remain a church member in good standing until his death.

[00:15:18]I think that goes to show just how high the stakes are, right? Uh during Utah's transition into mainstream American politics because he's not an apostle.

[00:15:27]Now, if he wants to pursue politics, he would be free to do so, right?

[00:15:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and we should note that he did. Um he was he was actually elected to the United States Senate by the Utah State Legislature uh in 1899.

[00:15:41]And I should note back then uh Senate elections weren't open. They were actually chosen by the state legislatores. Not until the 20s we switched to open elections. But but here's what's interesting. Okay, so thatcher gets nominated in 1899 to serve in the US Senate, but he declines because he doesn't think other politicians in the US Senate would allow a polygamist to serve in the US Congress. And that is an interesting uh prediction that he makes there. Yes, an interesting prediction indeed because just a few months earlier, a polygamist had been elected by Utons to serve in the US House of Representatives. And it just so happened to be the only other general authority who had refused to sign the political manifesto, at least the first. And that man's name was BH Roberts.

[00:16:34]>> Yes. Yeah. We briefly mentioned BH Roberts in the last episode and that was partly because this episode is entirely BH Roberts story. Now today BH Roberts is more wellknown than Moses Thatcher but mostly uh for his work as a historian, an intellectual, a philosopher and he was all those things.

[00:16:54]But one of the most interesting parts of his life came when he was elected to serve in the United States House of Representatives in November of 1898.

[00:17:04]Yeah, but just in case uh maybe some of our listeners out there don't know who BH Roberts is, maybe we should take a moment to get acquainted with him because he's kind of a big deal. Like for instance, back in in uh 1969, historian Leonard Arrington uh surveys about 50 different prominent Latter-day Saint intellectuals, most of them holding PhDs, and he asked them to list the five most eminent intellectuals in Mormon history.

[00:17:33]And who came out on top as number one pick?

[00:17:37]>> BH Roberts.

[00:17:38]>> Yeah.

[00:17:38]>> He was ahead of Orson Pratt. He's ahead of Joseph Smith. Uh I mean he's a big deal.

[00:17:44]>> Yeah. And and 24 years later in 1993, uh the academic journal Dialogue repeated the survey and BH Roberts was once again voted the number one intellectual in Mormon history, actually extending his lead over the runners up this time. And Leonard Arrington, who again started this whole survey thing, and is probably the most pre-minent Mormon historian of the 20th century, actually calls Roberts the intellectual leader of the Mormon people in the era of Mormonism's finest intellectual attainment. So, the greatest intellectual during the greatest season of intellectualism in the church, uh, BH Roberts. And there's there's a lot of reasons for this. Um, here's one. If you're if you're going to do any historical work about Latter-day Saint history, which we're big fans of on this podcast, right, >> you're eventually going to run into BH Roberts, uh he edited what's called the documentary history of the church, which was kind of the gold standard of church history until the Joseph Smith papers uh was launched in the 20th century. He also authored what's called the comprehensive history of the church multi-olume set which is probably still the well most comprehensive history of the church uh if you're looking at the 19th and 20th centuries of latter day saint history.

[00:19:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. And he was also really influential in theology as well. Also, he authors books like New Witnesses for God, uh, The 70s Course and Theology, The Truth, The Way, and the Life, and his extensive apologetic and historical writings together make him arguably the most prolific Latter-day Saint intellectual of his era. And before we go any further, um, let's mention that Roberts led such an interesting life that there has been a ton of good scholarship on him. For instance, uh Truman Manson, and this is just to get started, wrote an amazing biography of Roberts that's entitled Defender of the Faith, which we're using a lot today.

[00:19:45]We're we're quoting a lot from um Defender of the Faith. More recently, John A. Silito uh wrote BH Roberts, A Life in the Public Arena, which is also excellent, but focuses more on on Robert's public life. So, finally, um since BH Roberts was a pretty good historian, he was pretty good at everything. it it seems he wrote his own autobiography and we're going to be drawing from that uh during this episode as well. So we can hear his internal dialogue because he wrote it down >> um uh throughout his life. He he tells his story himself.

[00:20:20]>> Yeah. So today we're going to try to stay disciplined. We're going to focus on VH Roberts the politician. And there's a lot to say about that. So by late 1890s Roberts was a leading ecclesiastical figure in the church.

[00:20:33]Okay. He's he's in the presidency of the 70. He's not an apostle. Sometimes I hear people calling him an apostle. He wasn't an apostle. He was a member of the 70 uh the uh seven presidents of the 70. Uh but he was also like controversial for a number of reasons.

[00:20:49]>> Yeah. So just to site one example, uh Roberts was really influential uh during the movement to establish Utah's statehood and he was a major figure during the constitutional convention for Utah. But he also offended a lot of people because he was against women having the right to vote, which was kind of a signature thing uh for Utah. We really prided ourselves on being one of the first US territories to give women the right to vote. In fact, Wyoming only only Wyoming beat us by a few months, giving women the right to vote in December 1869, while Utah granted it in February 1870. But um the first women to actually cast a vote did so in Utah. So take that Wyoming. We're we're one up on you because of that.

[00:21:40]>> Have you Casey? Have you seen the musical Sups? It's about women.

[00:21:44]>> Uh I have not. I'm intrigued though.

[00:21:46]>> Me I >> Is it Does it take place mostly in Utah and Wyoming?

[00:21:50]>> No, but I remember I I first watched it uh with my wife. We're in downtown Salt Lake in the Eckles, I think it was, theater, uh, watching this musical, all about women's suffrage, and it like dawned on me like I was sitting like probably just a couple blocks away from where the first like woman voted in the United States of America watching this musical about women suffrage and it was anyway this kind of surreal moment. And so, yes, Utah number one vote. Did Did the musical feature several prominent Latter-day Saint women or no?

[00:22:26]>> If it featured zero prominent Latter Day Saint women, >> then I I I question I question the historioggraphy of the people that wrote that. No, no doubt. People like Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan B.

[00:22:38]Anthony deserve their due. But if we were being fair, Emiline B. Wells would be there. In fact, Leonard Arrington said Emiline B. Wells would have statues to her if she wasn't a a Latter-day Saint and b a polygamous wife. She just kind of gets swept under the rug because of that. But Latter-day Saint women played a huge role >> in uh bringing about women's suffrage.

[00:22:59]And again, Utah and Wyoming territories are on the cutting edge of this movement.

[00:23:04]>> We need to give him credit for that.

[00:23:06]>> 100%. Yeah. So, so back to BH Roberts then. So his opposition to women's suffrage >> is not going to land very well in Utah.

[00:23:16]But >> yeah, >> it's a little more complicated than it seems. Like BH Roberts opposition to women's suffrage was not because he believed women were inferior, but because he believed they occupied what he would refer to as a distinct and a higher moral sphere uh that should be protected from the corruption of partisan politics. His argument, which is actually common in that time, was that women, especially wives and mothers, were already represented politically through their husbands.

[00:23:47]And so that drawing them into elections would expose them to political conflict.

[00:23:53]It would expose them to jury duty. Maybe they'd have militia service uh obligations and other civic obligations that were incompatible with their primary roles in the home. So he's going to appeal to like traditional gender roles, biblical teachings about the relationship between men and women while also maintaining uh his his stance that suffrage was primarily uh a privilege rather than an inherent right.

[00:24:21]>> I don't think a lot of those arguments would fly with my wife uh today or my daughters. But there there there are other practical questions that probably influence Roberts as well. like let's give him his due. Roberts also believed that the the suffrage debate in Utah was driven more by political strategy than principle and he feared that including women's suffrage in the Utah in the proposed Utah constitution might endanger the territo's chances for statehood because he mistakenly it turns out he believed the President Grover Cleveland opposed it. So Roberts saw himself as resisting kind of political expediency rather than opposing women.

[00:25:02]But his arguments, which let's be honest, are a little paternalistic.

[00:25:06]They're they're kind of stay in your lane, uh, ladies, um, really found little support. And most delegates and church leaders favored restoring women's suffrage, which had actually been taken away, uh, from Utah. And Roberts ultimately found himself defending a losing position during the constitutional convention.

[00:25:25]>> Yeah. And this position really ticked off some of the female leadership of the church, like Emiline B. Wells, who was a leader who had been fighting for women's suffrage for years. Uh you can imagine she was not a fan of Robert's arguments and she made it known both inside and outside the church. Uh ultimately uh the Utah Constitution was approved with equal suffrage for both sexes included and baked in to Utah's constitution.

[00:25:56]>> That wasn't the only thing that made Roberts controversial in Utah, though.

[00:25:59]uh he was also a very outspoken opponent of the church influencing politics though he himself was a member of church hierarchy who was clearly trying to influence politics but >> yeah yeah so we mentioned earlier we talked about Moses thatcher and how he opposed the political manifesto when it was issued but part of the problem there was just with communication um thatcher we mentioned was struggling with serious health problems and he couldn't meet with the other leaders of the church to express his views. Now, BH Roberts, on the other hand, was more than willing uh to meet with the entire general leadership of the church and take a lone stand and and not just against like one general authority, but we're talking against all of the general authorities of the church >> at once.

[00:26:51]Yeah. And the trouble seems to have started when Joseph F. Smith who remember member is a member of the first presidency. He has sided with the Republican party to try to show Latter-day Saints that it's okay to be a Republican as unpopular as that may have been at the time. But he made a statement in general conference over the pulpit condemning BH Roberts and Moses Thatcher for running on the Democratic ticket in 1895 without church leaders approval. as we mentioned last episode.

[00:27:21]Uh now here's just an excerpt from B.

[00:27:23]Robert's autobiography where he describes uh this episode. He said, quote, Joseph F. Smith of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a priesthood meeting in the assembly hall during the semianual conference of that religious organization very abruptly and severely censured two of the Democratic nominees, Moses Thatcher and me, as having accepted and entered into the campaign without consulting with the authorities of the church as to a right to become candidates for political office. As this criticism came but a short time before the election in November, it was regarded as an interference with Democratic candidates as it was well known that Mr. Smith was an intense Republican.

[00:28:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and Roberts is is only sort of pulling his punches here. Uh he continues on. He says the charge was freely made that his criticism was made in aid of the state Republican party.

[00:28:24]The charge was held to be justified by church leaders on the ground that before engaging in work that would take church officers from their duties to the church, a consultation should be had with their fellow officers before engaging in occupations of this kind, whether in politics or business. And undoubtedly there was much to say from this point of view. So Roberts eventually loses this particular campaign, but he only loses by 897 votes. And after the campaign was over, all of the general authorities of the church were eventually called into church headquarters to participate in the discussions that would eventually result in the creation of the political manifesto.

[00:29:04]>> Yeah. And by the way, BH Roberts and Moses Thatcher blamed Joseph F. Smith for them losing in the election that year because they said that his influence pushed people toward the Republicans and away from them and that kind of >> chafed. But uh that that meeting that you talked about where they call now all the general authorities together. Uh Roberts actually describes this meeting succinctly in his autobiography. Here's what he wrote. Quote, "After the smoke of the campaign had passed, his own political campaign he just lost. The general authorities of the LDS church were called in consultation and an understanding had with reference to what was known as the political manifesto. It was disclaimed by church authorities that there was any intention on their part to control men in their political activities. It was holy for the protection of the services due from the general offices to the church.

[00:30:00]>> But that mild description of Roberts is doesn't even begin to capture what a dramatic showdown this becomes between Roberts and nearly the entire leadership of the church.

[00:30:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. And Roberts is is is very honest in his writing, but this particular episode, this whole political manifesto, an election to the US Senate.

[00:30:23]He he really kind of >> uh holds back, I guess you'd say. He doesn't describe it in detail. Uh but let's let's put journal in in his own autobiography, which which you can find and read. It's excellent. Go get a copy.

[00:30:37]Uh but this part he he truncates quite a bit.

[00:30:40]>> Um so let's put together the timeline.

[00:30:43]Utah became a state on January 4th, 1896.

[00:30:46]Roberts and Thatcher had still not signed the political manifesto. And in March 1896, a series of meetings were held which included nearly the entire general leadership of the church. And on March 5th, 1896, President Wilfr Woodruff recorded a a lengthy meeting in the Salt Lake Temple with BH Roberts.

[00:31:06]And this is what President Woodruff wrote. He said, "We spent the whole day here." And keep in mind, we included the first presidency, all of the council of the 12, and all seven presidents of the 70 until 6:00 laboring with BH Roberts.

[00:31:21]The second meeting we held with him to get him to repent of his wrong in what he had said and done against the church and the presidency on political principles, but he stood like adamant and he is going to destruction. Um so two weeks later um church leaders meet with Roberts again for another extended session. This one lasts 5 hours according to Mariner W. Merryill and George Reynolds described the meeting simply by writing it was a solemn scene.

[00:31:52]Many tears but BHR not moved.

[00:31:57]>> Yeah. During one of these temple meetings, uh, Roberts, he he pulls off what some later remembered as a marvelous feat. For instance, Elder Hebrew J. Grant, uh, he he often will tell this story both with admiration on the one hand and frustration uh, on the other. He says he marveled at how how Roberts quote held all the brethren at bay. One by one, each member of the council of the 12 spoke at length about Roberts's position. They offered comments. They offered criticisms. They offered careful distinctions.

[00:32:34]After everyone had finished, Bes Roberts stood and he responded. He jiggant says to every point in the exact order that it had been made, answering each one in full without missing a single detail.

[00:32:47]And when he finished, he said in effect this, "Now, brethren, I have spoken without notes. If there is any point that I have omitted or left without comment, please mention.

[00:32:57]And no one spoke. He J Grant he he left the meeting even more impressed by BH Roberts's like remarkable memory, his like organized thinking and his composure under pressure. But he was also super troubled by how unwilling BH was to change his position.

[00:33:18]The discussion became so emotional that President Woodra finally stood and with his characteristic calm and Christlike nature he said, "Brethren, we will close this meeting by singing school thy feelings, oh my brother."

[00:33:35]And then the meeting was immediately adjourned.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. Now, now after these really frustrating meetings, um, two apostles, one of them's Hebrew J. Grant, uh, the other one's Francis M. Lyman go and visit with Roberts at his home in Salt Lake. And this causes an even more dramatic scene. Um, speaking as friends, Grant and Lyman urged him to tell them if there was a personal issue behind his actions, promising that anything he shared uh would remain confidential, and Roberts refused completely. Hebrew J.

[00:34:08]Grant says his heart was like stone. But after a long and exhausting evening, Grant and Lyman were prepared to leave.

[00:34:15]when Roberts um shook each man's hand and said in substance, "Brethren, though I have not changed my mind, I nevertheless honor you for your kindness and your willingness to try to be helpful." And as he spoke, um tears come to his eyes and and Hebrew J. Grant sees this and grabs BH Roberts by the shoulder and guided him back to a chair.

[00:34:38]And this is the way he remeers it. He says, "What's that? A tear? All right, now out with it. What's in your craw? So they wear him down basically and he he J Grant seizes the moment to say, "Oh, there is something bothering you. What is it? Just tell us >> what's in your craw." I love that question.

[00:34:58]>> Okay. So then, so that this is where BH Roberts finally he opens up and he described three incidents that had deeply bothered him. First, an overheard remark by a Republican. Second, a sermon by George Cuchanan that Roberts believed had been directed at him. And third, what he saw as a personal slight. So, Hebrew J. Grant happened to know the facts behind all three situations. And he explained that Roberts had misunderstood each one and had taken offense unnecessarily.

[00:35:30]B Roberts trusted uh Hibj Grant's honesty completely and he sat silently for a long moment before he finally said, "Well, brethren, I am nonplust.

[00:35:45]I I am. This changes things." Yeah. So early in March, while the conflict still stays at a standstill, Roberts was told that he would be suspended from public ministry for 3 weeks. And if he still refused to change his position by the end of that period, he would lose his place as one of the presidents of the first council of the 70. So on the evening before the deadline, which was March 25th, 1896, the first presidency met with him one last time. And imagine the scene. There's 89year-old President Wilfr Woodruff, remembered as a saintly, loving, and as free from all assumptions of authority as any man whose simple beauty and purity of character were pre-minently Christlike. He he pleads with Roberts alongside his counselors, but Roberts remains firm and before ending the meeting, they gave him until 9:00 uh the next morning to decide.

[00:36:40]>> And the main issue here is deciding to sign the manifesto, right? Or he would drop from his position, >> which is what happened to Moses. Happens to most. Yep.

[00:36:51]>> Same stakes here. So that night, Roberts wanders the streets of Salt Lake City, praying, reflecting, and uh wrestling with his decision. When he returned to the uh offices of the First Presidency, the next morning, those present could immediately see that something had changed with BH. According to Wilfford Woodruff's journal, he says he came, quote, "withen heart and a contrite spirit."

[00:37:19]Uh Roberts announced to the first presidency that he would join the brethren in signing the manifesto and that uh quote his difficulties were all satisfied. He then added brethren I have not slept. I have been walking and praying all night long to come to this.

[00:37:37]Then President Joseph F. Smith, exhausted and emotional with his own moist, bloodshot eyes, he looked up with a weary smile and he said, "Yes, Brother Roberts, we've not slept either. We have stayed in this room all night praying that you would reach this decision."

[00:37:55]And and this leads to this great reconciliation between Roberts and the rest of the church leaders. In a temple meeting that was held that afternoon, Mariner Merrill, who's another apostle, recorded that Roberts was forgiven by all present. He wrote, uh, another apostle, John Henry Smith, who remember is the main Republican guy. Um, he said, "We took him into our fellowship. He with the others present shed tears of joy at the change in his spirit."

[00:38:22]>> And then just two weeks later, B Roberts is asked by President Wilfrid Woodruff to speak in general conference. And Roberts who had been absent from the pulpit for a few months because of his split with church leadership uh he he stepped up and one account records this.

[00:38:39]He said when he arose and said he accepted the council of the general authorities told them he had done wrong that he would sustain the priesthood first and foremost in all things.

[00:38:51]President Woodruff and the brethren wept for joy. It was a scene never to be forgotten to see a whole congregation so affected.

[00:39:02]>> And when he finished speaking, one member of the 70, a guy named Christian Felstead, was so moved that he said he he could rarely even talk about the incident later without bursting into tears. It touched him so deeply. Uh but when the meeting ended, uh Joseph F.

[00:39:17]Smith, whose comments you'll remember, sort of set this whole thing in motion.

[00:39:22]Uh, he embraced BH Roberts and he gave him a holy kiss, the record says, uh, as he did with his close family and then he said, "God bless you." Now, >> yeah, >> let me pause here for a second, Casey.

[00:39:36]>> This is a lot of drama, and we haven't even gotten to to BH Roberts's like approved congressional campaign yet, but uh, >> yes. Yes. And and I want to know we are going to get to that but we sort of fixated on this moment because we have done episodes in the past where we've talked about maybe like two general authorities having conflict or groups of general authorities having conflict but this is the only instance I've ever heard of where one general authority was opposed by all of the general authorities. I mean Moses Thatcher was kind of Robert's wingman on this. Um, but he didn't really attend any of these meetings due to the health challenges he was dealing with. So, you kind of have to look back on this episode and simultaneously admire Robert's stubbornness, but also his humility um in this matter.

[00:40:28]Uh, it's it's it's it's kind of a cool story that shows how relationships among the leaders of the church um can work.

[00:40:35]>> Yeah. So interesting. So interesting.

[00:40:40]All right. So, should we jump into his authorized campaign?

[00:40:44]>> Yes. Yes. Let's get to that.

[00:40:46]>> Okay. So, by 1898, Roberts, having repaired his relationship with church leaders enough, uh, became the Democratic nominee for Utah's atlarge congressional seat. Now, he's counseledled with his brethren and he's gotten their blessing and he actually wins. He wins the November election decisively and is elected to the 56th Congress of the United States of America. Ordinarily, that would have ended the story. But instead, as a result of his nomination, this huge national controversy erupts. Now, although the church has officially ended the authorization of new plural marriages with the 1890 manifesto, Roberts did remain a practicing polygamist. had uh three wives and uh he continued to live with them, even continued to father children with those wives who he had married prior to the manifesto right in 1890. So the critics of course didn't give him a pass on this. They they argued that that seating this guy in Congress would signal that Utah and the church had not truly abandoned polygamy.

[00:41:56]>> Yeah. And let me add that when we say national controversy, it was not a small one. The whole nation seemed to be up in arms about BH Roberts election to Congress. And even before he was elected, it was clear that there was trouble brewing over this this issue with polygamy. Yeah. Even during his campaign for Congress, the controversy had started before he got elected. As it heated up, Republicans and their supporters made uh Roberts's plural marriages like the central issue. Like for for instance, the Ogden Standard attacked him as quote an open violator of the laws of the land. The paper argued that not only did he not deny the charge, but he boasts of it. It then appeals directly to female voters, saying, quote, "Will the women of Ogden and Weber County endorse a criminal by your vote?"

[00:42:48]That attack's coming from people probably outside the church. There are people inside the church. Maybe the sharpest attack uh came on BH Roberts from the Utah governor who's Hebrew W.

[00:42:58]Wells who by the way his mother is Martha Given Wells who's the sister wife of Emiline B. Wells like this is all really um entangled. Wells said he did not think Roberts had undergone this is his words a complete change of heart >> um on protectionism and women's suffrage. So women's suffrage is coming back uh from what he'd done before even though Robert says that yeah I've changed my mind. I moved on from that.

[00:43:22]He dismissed Robert's candidacy as a mistake. And then he sharpened the jab even more. H said the trouble with him, meaning BH Roberts, is that he loves the sound of his own voice, not wisely, but too well. And and Wells's main criticism though was that Roberts was running uh despite his plural marriage. In Wells's view, the church was not committed to Roberts and voting for the Democrat would vindicate no principle. This is uh Wells's words, subserve no good or worthy purpose, but would be an utter disaster because it would be an open invitation to Congress and the nation to renew the warfare against the Mormon people which we all hoped and prayed was ended forever. So Wells is saying this is just going to reopen that can of worms that we just got shut uh by reigniting the national debate over plural marriage, its morality, its legality, all those things. He's saying this is going to set Utah back quite a ways.

[00:44:21]>> Yeah. And Jay Golden Kimble, who's another president of the 70, who's kind of known for his uh colorful language.

[00:44:28]>> Yeah.

[00:44:29]>> He he recorded BH Roberts's outrage in his journal to what the governor had said. And here's here's what he wrote.

[00:44:36]Quote, "The governor said that men violating the law by living with their wives cannot hold public office. Roberts called him a craven and a son of a beep says right in his journal and he was so agitated Jay Golden Kimble says that uh he felt that the spirit that Roberts was manifesting was from down below that the natural man prevailed that the spirit of God was not present. I felt badly about it. Jay Golden Kimble says, "Now, now keep in mind that's this is Jay. Golden Kimble writing here, who maybe putting a couple colorful words in BH Roberts' mouth here, but uh it cap captures the spirit of uh Roberts's indignation against the governor."

[00:45:19]>> Yeah. Now, now despite all this opposition, uh when the votes are counted, Roberts had won by a pretty comfortable margin. In fact, he carried 18 of Utah's 27 counties, including Salt Lake, Utah, Weber, his home county of Davis, and in Davis County, he won more than 60% of the vote. But then, literally, like the day after his election, trouble starts brewing. Like the Salt Lake Tribune publishes a cartoon of Roberts walting into Washington DC with his polygamous children with the accompanying verse.

[00:45:51]Quote, "Haha, there's my paw. He'll go to Washington, but he won't take ma."

[00:45:59]Uh, this this sets off a national campaign to to keep Roberts from taking his seat in Congress that actually lasts longer than the campaign to elect Roberts to Congress, ironically. Mhm.

[00:46:13]Mhm. Yeah. And the opponents of of Roberts are crystal clear about why they don't want him in Congress. They thought if he was seated in Congress that it would mean the nation was accepting polygamy. The Salt Lake Tribune um does a good job distilling the essence of this argument. Uh in the papers view, this is what they wrote. If a contest is made or a formidable protest is entered against his taking a seat in Congress, he will never be seated. We do not see how he can be seated when the sentiment of the country on that subject is considered. That's the end of the quote.

[00:46:46]And but the Tribune even goes further too, insisting that if Roberts was allowed to take his seat, they wrote, "We do not see why the manifesto should not be withdrawn. for if the Congress of the United States representing the people endorses polygamy, we do not see why there should be any inhibition of it in Utah. So their argument is, well, if we accept a polygamist in Congress, then the Latter-day Saints are just going to roll back the manifesto and start practicing polygamy again.

[00:47:13]>> Little uh political fear-mongering uh happening right there.

[00:47:18]>> Here's what's interesting. Strangely enough, uh, some publications actually leaped to defend PH. Roberts, like the Springfield Republican editorialized that Roberts was quote, "Not a willful violator of law, but a man reared in the Mormon religion who was finding it difficult to readjust to new conditions."

[00:47:39]Roberts quote, took his duty toward the women he had married seriously, and men of his stamp are numerous among the older members of the church. So that's not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it's not hostile, right? They're kind of saying like just give the cut the guy some slack. Like they're transitioning here. All right. Like come on.

[00:47:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, now all the dust kicked up by this also put the church on the defensive. So Lorenzo Snow, who by this point is just the brand new president of the church, also weighed in. He sent a signed statement to the New York Evening World and and solemnly, these are his words, solemnly and emphatically denied that the church was still encouraging or teaching polygamy. And he also says that since 1890, quote, polygamous marriages in the Mormon church have entirely ceased. And he was personally opposed to any move to bring plural marriage back since that would be contrary uh to the law.

[00:48:32]>> So, we are law-abiding citizens. We're sticking to the manifesto. We're serious.

[00:48:36]>> Yeah. Meanwhile, some people outside the church began to think that Roberts's election would would actually hurt Utah.

[00:48:43]Uh, a guy named Urban Alred, who's a missionary serving in Nashville, Tennessee, said that a prominent local judge there had told him that quote, "The election of BH Roberts was an irreparable injury to the state of Utah." Mhm.

[00:48:59]>> And then this lady named Paulie Pry, who's a well-known correspondent of the Denver Post. She travels to Utah to investigate a number of issues and the Roberts controversy quickly becomes one of her favorite pet subjects. After looking into the situation, she concluded publicly in her paper that there was quote no doubt at all that Mr. Roberts was put up by the Mormon Church, elected by order of the Mormon Church, and is now being upheld by the Mormon Church for the sole purpose of ascertaining the position the government will take in regard to polygamists holding government office. Yeah. And these attacks also kind of put Latter-day Saint women in a peculiar position, too. So, we mentioned Emiline B. Wells. She continues to genuinely dislike BH Roberts. While Martha Hughes Cannon, another famous Latter-day Saint from the era, signals that she supports him. And and maybe the strangest plot twist of all, is that Susan B. Anthony, the most famous American suffragette of all time. She was definitely in Suffs the Musical. Uh Scott, I I take it. I haven't seen it, but was she in it?

[00:50:08]>> Uh she was not actually. She's okay. I don't know. I don't know about this show.

[00:50:14]>> You got to see it. Okay. You have to see it. It's super good and you won't regret it. Yeah.

[00:50:18]>> All right. All right. All right. All right. I'm going to go see it. I'm going to give it a chance. Okay. So, Susan B.

[00:50:22]Anthony uh writes on behalf of BH Roberts. She defends him. Here's what she said. She said she quote had more respect for the Mormon polygamist who follows the teachings instilled into his very being and all the traditions of his religious sect by marrying plural wives and openly supporting them and their children. Then I have for the men who gives his name and his support to one woman openly while secretly desecrating their lives by living with other women.

[00:50:50]By doing by so doing, he commits a crime not only against his lawful wife but against the other women with whom he sins. So, I'd rather I'd rather support a polygamist who's open about it and supports his wives than I think she's kind of implying that a lot of men um openly say that they're supporting one wife but secretly run around with other women. That that's more honorable that within the framework BH Roberts exists in. He's an honorable person.

[00:51:17]>> Yeah. Points Susan B. Anthony. Great great job.

[00:51:22]Now, Roberts does he he was not one who was known to back down from an argument.

[00:51:27]So, he does defend himself in a notable editorial that appears in the New York Times. Uh this is November of uh 1899 as Congress is preparing to decide whether he should be seated. Roberts publishes this lengthy defense in the New York Times. So therein he he argued that the house has no clear constitutional authority to exclude him because there had been no fraud in the election. There was no challenge from his opponent, no precedent for removing a member over what he called an alleged defect of moral character. Uh excluding him for conduct that occurred before the election, his marrying these wives pre-manifesto, right? And that voters already knew about that. They debated it during the campaign and nevertheless accepted him. That that would be utterly without precedent. He said, "Yeah, good points." Roberts also challenged what he saw as as widespread misunderstandings about Utah and the church. For instance, he insisted that quote, "No compact exists between the Mormon Church and the government of the United States on the subject of polygamy." The real agreement, he argued, was between the United States and the people of Utah through the state constitution, which permanently prohibited future plural marriages. Uh, that compact has been kept on the part of the people of Utah.

[00:52:49]He writes, "The people of my state are not covenant breakers as their enemies charge." Now, BH Roberts also rejected claims that the church leaders had orchestrated his nomination or his election. Um, the Democratic convention, he said, had followed the normal political process. And while some Latter-day Saint Democrats supported him, prominent uh Latter-day Saint Republicans high in the councils of the church had worked just as hard to defeat him. In fact, Roberts pointed out that he won many non-Latter-day saint areas while losing uh several communities that are dominated by Latter-day Saints. Uh making it quote not true that he was either nominated or elected by Mormon church influence. That would be a curious uh Mormon conspiracy indeed being opposed by church leaders and not voted in by uh heavily Latter-day Saint communities. Good points. Then to conclude his argument, he dismisses the accusation that his election was part of a church plan to restore polygamy or to fulfill some alleged prophecy attributed to Brigham Young. That was another thing that was being tossed about. Uh having spent years studying President Young's life and teachings, Robert said he had never encountered any such prediction either from Young or from any of his contemporaries. So that is totally bogus, right?

[00:54:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. So with all these arguments ongoing, BH Roberts arrives in Washington on November 23rd, 1899, and he's optimistic about his chances. He he told the Desireet News reporter that he was not aware of any effort in Congress to keep him from taking his seat. Um and other people shared that like Representative George W. Comr of Indiana shared that confidence predicting that once the initial fanfare died down, Roberts would probably be seated because congressional Democrats would never, these are his words, never permit a free silver anti-expansionist Democrat to be ousted. Roberts um expresses optimism in a letter that he writes to his mother when he first arrives in Washington. He told her that he already had some friends in Washington who would stand by him when the hour of trial comes. And he confidently adds his words, "Win or lose, I shall be all right still. And by the way, I am going to win." Good attitude, brother.

[00:55:10]Many of uh of Roberts's defenders also took the side that like while they didn't approve of polygamy, they also thought the the anti-Roberts crusade was driven by prejudice, by a double standard or just political theater.

[00:55:24]Right? Some emphasized constitutional rights in his defense. They pointed out that Roberts met the basic requirements for office. Uh, and they warned against turning an alleged defect of moral character into a reason to deny this man his seat. And again, Robert's carefully responds to this with a legal argument.

[00:55:44]He insists that quote, "No compact exists between the Mormon church and the government of the United States on the subject of polygamy." End quote. He emphasizes again that his election came from ordinary political support, not from some kind of church conspiracy. And we should note too that this is raging throughout the United States. It's in the newspapers and people are weighing in. In fact, this is a mind-boggling number, Casey, but we should note that throughout the US, 7 million people signed a petition demanding that BH Roberts be denied his seat in the US House of Representatives. Now, just to put that number in perspective, the total population of the United States in 1900 was roughly 76 million. So that means like like nearly 10% of the entire country's population signed their names to this petition, making it one of the largest mass petition campaigns in American history up to this point. So just keep that in mind. And uh that's going to influence what the House of Representatives does.

[00:56:54]Like they move continually steadily to exclude Roberts. They meet privately.

[00:57:00]They decide that Roberts quote should not be sworn in or permitted to take a seat and the full house uh soon takes up the fight amid intense public attention.

[00:57:10]Roberts will defend himself on the floor with with some pretty uh high flown constitutional language as he was capable of doing. Uh he declared, for instance, quote, "Under the shadow of the Constitution of the United States, I demand both for myself and the people of my state the protection that is due us."

[00:57:29]He also then denounced the emotional campaign against him. He said that if Congress excluded or repelled him, quote, "All the shame that there is in this case will be left behind me and rest with this house." Now, there are committee meetings held that focus uh heavily on BH Roberts marriages and his public statements about plural marriage and witnesses testified about his relationships while Roberts tries to challenge their knowledge and credibility. And the committee um designed to investigate this actually split over procedure. But the majority of the US House said that he should be excluded at once while the minority in the House said that they should seat him first and then expel him. But in the end, the House votes overwhelmingly to declare his seat vacant on January 25th, 1900. Roberts then uh speaks to the press and says that he had won, these are his words, he won the election, quote, by the substantial plurality of 5,665 votes, but he had been removed by an unconstitutional and unprecedented process. And I should note too that there's still debates today over whether or not this was okay. Like can the Congress of the United States overrule the voters of the United States if this is the person that they've chosen? Like this is still brought up from time to time uh when we talk about you know the legitimacy of certain elections and what powers Congress has and doesn't has.

[00:59:00]Like this is still an active constitutional issue and BH Roberts is like exhibit A when we discuss things like this. So fascinating, like sad and fascinating. And and this whole episode's going to leave like a pretty long shadow. Um BH Roberts saw the fight as as proof that sectarian prejudice had overwhelmed fairness while uh many of his supporters viewed his defeat as a super dangerous precedent. In retrospect, the uh the case becomes a major turning point not just in BH Roberts's own life, but also in the larger relationship between the LDS church, national politics, and the public debate over polygamy. And it raises serious questions over whether or not any active Latter-day Saint, polygamist or not, could ever be seated in Congress. So, Joseph F. Smith, who was both a friend, but an occasional critic of BH Roberts, writes his son, Joseph R. Smith. He writes and says, quote, I think Congress will oust the honorable BH Roberts, but if so, it will be a blot upon the House of Representatives and the nation. I'll venture to guess that there is not another man in Congress save it be he mentions here uh Utah Senator Joseph Rollins who is as clean and free from the taint of crime as he meaning BH Roberts if ousted it will be by the force of sectarian hypocrisy pure and simple his failure to be seated in Congress becomes one of the greatest regrets of his life but BH Roberts goes on to accomplish some of his finest work after the whole uh controversy settles down. Like John Silito discovers a few comments from Roberts years after the controversy ended. Uh here's what he wrote. He said that nearly 25 years after Congress refused to seat him, Roberts told a group of Eastern States missionaries that he still regretted the opportunity he had lost. He said he quote would have loved to be in Congress representing our people using the talent and strength God has given me to promote and maintain peace and to help ensure that everyone had an opportunity to enjoy the benefits of citizenship. Henry D. Taylor, an Eastern States missionary who later becomes a general authority.

[01:01:18]He remembered hearing Roberts express the same feelings while serving as his mission secretary in 1926. In his autobiography, Taylor wrote that losing his seat in Congress remained one of the most bitter and disappointing frustrations of Robert's life. During one conversation, Roberts admitted how deeply the experience still affected him. "Brother Taylor," he said, "when I think about that event, even though it was years ago, it's like pouring salt in a fresh wound."

[01:01:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. and and this whole episode just leaves behind big big questions about religious freedom in the United States. And these questions weren't just being asked by Latter-day Saints. Um the the Inter Mountain Catholic, this Catholic newspaper, published uh comments from the right Reverend Thomas H. Malone of Denver who argued quote opposition to Roberts as far as we have been able to observe is not based on legal grounds but instead on antipathy towards his religious beliefs and practices. So Malone is is maintaining that Roberts clearly met every constitutional requirement to serve in Congress. And he concluded uh quote, "It matters not what the teachings and practices of the Mormon Church may be.

[01:02:35]The Constitution of the United States has affirmed that such practices shall not be made a test of eligibility of those who practice and profess them."

[01:02:46]Uh, this is the Roberts case as it stands, stripped of all sentiment, hysteria, and gush. If the religious test is to be applied to Roberts, to whom will it be applied next? End of quote. So, every religious minority um is spooked a little bit by this.

[01:03:03]Catholics are minority. Latter-day Saints are minority. And here's a Catholic leader basically saying, "Okay, what's to say that the same thing won't happen when a Catholic gets elected to Congress? They meet every constitutional requirement, but they're rejected because of bigotry against their religion.

[01:03:21]>> Yeah. That is disturbing.

[01:03:23]>> Yeah.

[01:03:24]>> Like, was there a quiet, unspoken religious test being applied to representation in the federal government that Latter-day Saints and other religious minorities might not pass?

[01:03:37]That's terrifying. And did the battle over BH Roberts take place because he was a Latter-day Saint or because he was a polygamist? I should know that as of this recording, no practicing polygamist has ever been elected and allowed to sit in the United States Congress.

[01:03:54]>> You say that like maybe there will be one day, but so far there hasn't.

[01:03:57]>> Well, I mean, well, that that's the primary issue is was BH Roberts rejected because he was a polygamist or because he was a Latter-day Saint. Um, we still haven't had a polygamist serve in the US Congress that we're aware of. BH Roberts, I guess, would have been the first, but he's not allowed to be seated. But again, I mean, why wasn't he allowed to serve? Like, why did they overrule the voters in this particular case?

[01:04:21]>> Yeah. And this isn't actually just a point of like speculation, right, Casey?

[01:04:26]Cuz this question is going to come up in our next episode. Uh before the dust has even settled over the BH Roberts issue, another Latter-day Saint, an apostle named Reed Smoot is elected to the United States Senate.

[01:04:41]Smoot is a monogous, not polygamist.

[01:04:43]He's a monogamous, but he is an apostle.

[01:04:46]So the question is, can he be seated?

[01:04:51]>> Well question.

[01:04:52]>> Yeah, I'm looking at the clock and realizing we're going to have to answer that question in our next episode. But do you see how this is like a trilogy?

[01:04:59]Okay, Moses Thatcher, BH Roberts is sort of The Empire Strikes Back. It has a dark ending. It leads this discordant note. What's going to happen? And then next episode, we're going to have to talk about Reed Smoot, which I think is one of the most underestimated events in Latter- Day Saint history. Like the Reed Smoot hearings are a huge game changer uh for the church, for the saints in every way.

[01:05:23]>> Um it's a huge steal.

[01:05:25]>> Yeah. So if if BH Roberts is the Empire Strikes Back, what's Reed Smoot? Is this uh >> is this the New Hope? Wait, what order do they go in?

[01:05:34]>> A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back. Reed Smoot would be Return of the Jedi. So >> Return of the Jedi, >> Moses Thatcher sets up the question about the church in politics. BH Roberts is the dark. You're never going to be able to serve if you're a Latter-day Saint. And then >> Reed Smoot >> uh Reed Smoot is I don't want to spoil it, but maybe if you've seen Return of the Jedi, you know what's going to happen. And there's Ewoks and stuff like that. So, so we we look forward long-lost father or like how does >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. BH Robert there there were all kinds of plot twists in the middle here. Now, we're coming into the third part of the trilogy, which will answer the question of can Latter-day Saints serve in government, which surprisingly we're still sort of talking about uh today, even in the 21st century.

[01:06:20]>> Okay, we're going to leave it hanging right there. So, uh until next episode, >> until next time. Yep. I'll see you then, Scott.

[01:06:27]>> Okay, we'll see you then.

[01:06:32]Heat. Heat.