Make up your mind! | Skeptic Generation | Episode 26 Season 5

[00:00:07][music] Hello, hello, and welcome to the show.

[00:00:27]It is July 19th, 2026. This is Skeptic Generation. I'm Eric Murphy and we need to talk. Hey everybody. Joining me today is my friend Rudy Xult Baby. How's it going?

[00:00:39]>> Good.

[00:00:40]>> Good.

[00:00:41]>> Good. [gasps] >> Thank you so much for joining. Um I know uh people uh were waiting for Attekus to be on and Attakus is moving today and I'm so grateful that you came in to save the day and hang out with me. I love I I This is good. This is good. I love being able to reach out to you and have you come in because this just always [snorts] gives me good feels. Uh, how have you been? What have you been up to?

[00:01:08]>> Not [sighs and gasps] much. I'm, [clears throat] you know, work and trying not to worry about the state of the world too much.

[00:01:17]>> You know, the usual.

[00:01:19]>> Yeah. I So, I know that we got our whole thing we're going to talk about. We will. We will.

[00:01:25]We will. I just have [snorts] you ever had that feeling that like just cuz things are going your way doesn't mean you're winning?

[00:01:34]Like that feels like kind of this this last week. Did you know that uh yesterday was Andrew Tate's last day of freedom?

[00:01:48]>> A ain't that a shame. [laughter] >> I know. be out here prowling the internet in the streets, you know, trafficking women, promoting misogyny, etc. What a what a damn shame.

[00:02:06]>> Him and his brother were picked up by US marshalss. Um, but it's not because the US is doing the right thing, but because the UK is pressing charges and they're going to be extradited.

[00:02:18]>> Yes. And in this way, getting your way doesn't mean you're winning, right?

[00:02:25]>> Yeah.

[00:02:25]>> Uh, Senator Lindsey Graham passed last week.

[00:02:30]>> Oh, thoughts and prayers.

[00:02:34][laughter] >> Not because he was, you know, uh, uh, decidedly, you know, not because we had decided as a people that homie needed to retire a long time ago.

[00:02:48]um not you know but because father time decided to take care of that for us right like he was so old he just croked um and we're looking at that for Mitch McConnell as well right just because >> that was that was really the shock of the century like that wasn't the senator I expected to wake up and see was dead today but >> yeah yeah and and and and yet still right getting your way doesn't mean that you're Yeah.

[00:03:19]>> And it feels like we're still kind of doing that. Um, and I I I see the way discourse is going. And I think if I'm going to have any platform with anybody watching, you guys, we need to do better.

[00:03:38]We need to do better. Not just in, you know, like the big things, but in the little things as well. Quit [ __ ] around. like something something came up I remember and I and I looked up the uh the the Democratic party for some reason online.

[00:03:55]I think I was grabbing something for a video for Drew and um they were talking about the big beautiful bill and they called it the big ugly bill.

[00:04:08]>> Oh man, you really got him.

[00:04:11]>> Got him right. Oh, so clever. Oh my god.

[00:04:16]You know, we got this, right? We're so I I I I I looked at that. I was like, "Oh, we're cooked."

[00:04:24][laughter] >> Like, y'all thought that was A W?

[00:04:27]>> YEAH. YEAH. YEAH. That's >> That's where we're at.

[00:04:30]>> Yeah. The big ugly bill guys.

[00:04:34]Yeah. We're going to call Trump Captain Cheeto or whatever. And everybody's going to laugh and clap that he's got crap smeared between his ass cheeks. And it's like, you guys, the Furer has come to town and we're we're we're we're making blow up diaper dolls.

[00:04:56]Like, come on. Let's Let's do better.

[00:05:00]>> And and those collectively do better. I love some ridicule.

[00:05:04]Uh, I can I can get down with some with some ridicule.

[00:05:09]>> I can get down with some memes to watch the world burn.

[00:05:13]>> Sure.

[00:05:13]>> Uh, >> but but that's not it.

[00:05:16]>> But that's not a real win.

[00:05:18]>> No, they think they're doing something.

[00:05:20]Space barbarian. You You're getting a little katharsis out of it. You're getting a little shod and fre or whatever it's called.

[00:05:27]>> That's that's fine.

[00:05:29]That's not anybody actually doing anything though. Like >> Right. Right.

[00:05:36]>> Like I think Trump knows everybody hates him.

[00:05:39]>> Pretty sure the entire his entire administration knows that they are not popular.

[00:05:44]>> Oh, in as much >> not uh >> in as much as Trump believes there's a God, he thinks that God hates him. He's he doesn't think he's going to heaven.

[00:05:50]He's already been on record saying that.

[00:05:52]Like >> Yeah.

[00:05:55]So why are we wh why why why guys guys why though like I need to know why am I are we missing something here that that's that's the state of discourse um you you look at it and that's ops like if you are if if if you are mllifying the public by saying the big ugly bill you're [ __ ] ops You know who else is ops?

[00:06:25]>> Is that >> by the way?

[00:06:27]>> Are >> Kamla Harris?

[00:06:30]>> Well, yeah.

[00:06:31]>> Did you see Kamala Harris's post about Lindsey Graham this week? God. No, but I I mean I could have assumed that she made one and that it was like I'm going to guess it's something along the lines of we may not have agreed on everything, but he was a great man in politics for so many years and he was part of doing so many terrible things. I mean, she wouldn't say terrible, but you know.

[00:06:57]>> Oh. Oh. Oh. If Oh, if only she would have said terrible. Are you [ __ ] Yeah. Uh, I am saddened to learn of the passing of my former colleague, Senator Lindsey Graham. He was full of wit, energy, and charm, and he cared deeply about the Senate.

[00:07:12]>> Sending thoughts and prayers to his friends and loved ones.

[00:07:15]>> That's such a nothing burger of a compliment, too.

[00:07:17]>> You're a [ __ ] [laughter] op. You are an op. You are an op, honestly. And, you know, if she was president and and uh if if we had elected her president, >> Mhm.

[00:07:29]>> what would have been the state of things? How would things how would things be on the way to getting better if if Camela Harris was president? They wouldn't be this bad for sure, >> but I feel like >> be good.

[00:07:41]>> But I feel like she'd have just been a seat warmer.

[00:07:44]>> Yeah.

[00:07:44]>> Keeping the >> It would have just been saving it for somebody else as bad as Trump to come along and and also do it real bad.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:07:52]>> Kicking the can down the road. [sighs] >> Yeah.

[00:07:56]So, I I'm just I'm just I'm just so frustrated by it all. And and I I I I have to throw that out there because like [laughter] why why why are we here? Um and why are we sitting there patting ourselves on the back? Space barbarian in the chat goes and then everybody clapped. Yep.

[00:08:20]Pretty much. Pretty much. Um, yeah, that's not making a change. And if you think that's making a change, you're [ __ ] not. Fix it. Um, okay. So, that said, sorry.

[00:08:36]Here in here, I'm where I'm at in Portland, Oregon. Um, we don't celebrate Pride in June. Did you know that?

[00:08:45]>> I did not.

[00:08:46]>> The month of July is Pride Month in Portland.

[00:08:51]>> Interesting. Why is that?

[00:08:54]>> I don't know. [laughter] But [snorts] I do know that like all the Pride stuff has been happening this month and I know that when I had Attakus on last, I had a a a complaint and we talked about it a bit and I know when I talked to you about it, you really wanted to kind of dig into it with me a bit and I'm I'm I'm excited to. Um, so what I had brought up with Attakus and I talked to you about before the show was how frustrated I am that it feels like in Pride discussions.

[00:09:32]It seems like we're bitching just to [ __ ] And I don't like it because when corporations were were like rainbow washing everything and you could buy rainbow all the things at Target and Walmart and all of that [ __ ] we were all going, "This sucks. These guys suck." And then when when when the Furer came to town and they stopped doing that, we all turned and went, "This sucks. They suck." And so it's like, "Okay, do we want our Pride merch or not?" And like because it sounds like we're like it's it's it's one thing to be reacting just, you know, out of out of reaction. It's another thing to be like morally upset. And I definitely feel like there's moral upset literally both ways. And and and I don't get it. What's your take? What do you think?

[00:10:26]My take has has pretty much always been, okay, these companies are doing this now. Wait until >> uh comes to town.

[00:10:36]>> You know, wait until the furer comes to town [laughter] and representing the LGBT community isn't profitable. They will simply stop doing it. Yeah.

[00:10:44]>> And they did.

[00:10:45]>> Absolutely.

[00:10:47]>> So, in my opinion, it was always bad because it was just because it was fake.

[00:10:51]Because it was uh it was profitable. It was for the looks. It wasn't something that anybody meant or cared about. Uh I mean, I'm sure there were some people who were like, "Oh, I'm so glad we're doing this as a company. This means a lot to me personally as a gay employee or whatever, but uh they're going to stop doing that when it's not popular."

[00:11:14]And they did. Yeah.

[00:11:15]>> And [clears throat] I I do think there there there is an annoyance from me for, [snorts] you know, the not making up your mind, the the what what do we even want here of of it all? If we're going to criticize them for plastering everything in Rainbow and then criticize them when they stop, what do we actually want? I mean like [laughter] you know what I want is there for not to be corporations that have to pretend that they like us.

[00:11:51]>> Fair. Yeah.

[00:11:53]>> Yeah. But but in lie of that in the meantime what I really want and and let me let me backtrack a little bit. I spent my teenage years on Tumblr. I spent my teenage years in queer online spaces.

[00:12:15]I have seen posts that were just, "Look at these really awful Pride merch things in the big box stores." And it's always been funny because it's clearly not stuff that was made by or for gay people. Actually, >> it's just some stuff that they were like, "Let's put a slogan on it and a rainbow." Yeah. And and the gays will want it.

[00:12:41]>> Sure.

[00:12:41]>> But that's not what the gays want.

[00:12:44]>> And and this is where my my silly meme that I sent you came in. Okay. which is uh the the I sent I sent Eric a meme yesterday while we were talking about um what we were just going to discuss for the show and it was um it basically said something like homophobic memes are indistingu don't don't work because they're indistinguishable from what gay people just send to each other.

[00:13:10]So, I I I I do have to say that the most egregious uh memes I get are always from my trans friends in particular.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah, [laughter] we kind of nasty. I'm not going to lie.

[00:13:26]Um [laughter] >> like like it was like I Oh my gosh. I I [sighs] you know what? Attakus isn't here. We're going to talk [ __ ] a little bit.

[00:13:37]>> [laughter] >> Adica is a dear friend of mine and I was at her birthday and I was one of only two sis people at the whole party. It was a great place. It definitely made me feel like, hey, >> I'm yay. And um it it did have like every once in a while you had that frat frat, you know, that that that frat house like gay like just out of nowhere just just in the background, you know, just Yeah. the the the the call outs.

[00:14:07]The call outs for sure.

[00:14:08]>> Yeah.

[00:14:10]>> Okay. So, how does that tie in?

[00:14:12][laughter] >> The tie in >> Yeah.

[00:14:14]>> to me >> is that I I have never wanted the corporatized pride merch. I never wanted that [ __ ] I want stuff that's made by gays for gays.

[00:14:30]>> Sure. That's the stuff I actually buy when it comes to Pride merch is stuff made by uh trans and gay creators who are making silly inside internet jokes to their friends with their friends >> with their their their fellow their fellow queers.

[00:14:55]>> [laughter] >> Like because you can tell you can tell the difference between something that is made by queers for queers and something that is made just to say we're doing the representation thing, >> you know?

[00:15:08]>> Okay. You know what? That actually feels more consistent. So, can I try and phrase that back to you a bit?

[00:15:15]So, it's not that we're upset at corporations because they took things down. They always sucked.

[00:15:23]They were never going to win. [ __ ] corporations, their [ __ ] faces, no matter what. Support support creators in the space. And also, we need to stop bitching that stuff got taken down. We can, if anything, celebrate that they're being their true selves, you know, but let's not let's not sit there and bemoan the fact that we can't get, you know, uh um sweatshop priced t-shirts for $5 at Walmart that have rainbows on them.

[00:15:59]>> Yeah, exactly. Cuz that just to me that was always that was always nothing. That was all like I and I see people wear stuff like that to pride and the people that are wearing that stuff are usually >> ally >> real real poor or they're uh just like family members of a gay person and they're like I did an allyship. I'm wearing a I'm wearing a free dad hugs shirt. I don't know what you want from me. And that's fine. I don't like I don't like hate seeing that kind of merch on people because the intent behind buying it is still good.

[00:16:40]The intent of the people making it wasn't. You know what I mean? The intent of the people making it is not they want to see more pride on people.

[00:16:52]>> Yeah.

[00:16:52]>> The the intent is just we support the gays for sure.

[00:16:56]>> So let's let's get into intent a little bit. It it it's I I that that kind of is interesting that people think that they're putting a coin in the jar, you know, they're they're doing a an allyship by showing up at the part where we're all celebrating. Like what does it mean to actually put in work? Like what is it? I know that you had a pretty heavy take about pride or you had you had thoughts about pride and and um I kind of wanted to dig into them a little bit.

[00:17:31]>> Do you not uh What do you got against pride, Rudy?

[00:17:37]>> I [ __ ] love pride. Pride I treat pride [laughter] like my birthday.

[00:17:40]>> Okay.

[00:17:40]>> I when I >> It's the So it's a JDub thing is what it is. You've internalized that you shouldn't celebrate it.

[00:17:48]>> Sorry.

[00:17:49]>> It's >> [snorts] [laughter] >> I I love pride. I want more straight people doing Pride. I encourage all of my my straight sis friends who are just like allies. I'm like, "Come to Pride.

[00:18:07]Come to the events. Come to explicitly gay things for gay people because the point is to make it a mixed space. If it were purely if if queer things were just for queer people, then we are just continuing to isolate ourselves.

[00:18:28]And and the reality is that in real not online queer spaces, that's not really happening that I've ever seen. I've seen lots of seemingly straight cis people at gay bars and at pride events and they're just there because they're like, "I don't hate you guys and you seem to be doing fun stuff and I wanted to have fun." And it's like, "As long as you respect that, as long as you respect the origins of this space as being a safe place for us and you don't endanger that safety, I don't care.

[00:19:04]I I I want it to be for everyone in the sense that I want love of humanity to be for everyone. I don't want it to be like like if it was only queer people celebrating queer people, >> which is great.

[00:19:23]>> I mean, >> queer people should celebrate themselves and each other.

[00:19:29]We gota we got to let the straits in on this or nothing's gonna change. And I hate to say that in because that sounds like >> Yeah, that sucks.

[00:19:39]>> That that wasn't tasteful.

[00:19:40]>> No.

[00:19:41]>> Uh >> that doesn't taste [laughter] that that doesn't taste good.

[00:19:46]>> But I I know I am not convincing I'm not convincing homophobes and transphobes of anything. And I'm not trying to. I'm living my life.

[00:19:58]Uh, >> so [sighs] I I I appreciate that. And also, I don't know, maybe I'm a little more exclusive. Maybe maybe like, okay, if you help somebody move or some if people help you move, what is the universal payment for people helping you move?

[00:20:21]>> Let me give you beer and pizza. Thank you.

[00:20:23]>> Let me give you beer and pizza. Yeah.

[00:20:25]What if what if you had a friend that showed up just for the beer and pizza afterwards and they didn't help you move?

[00:20:32]>> Do you want to give them beer and pizza?

[00:20:35]>> That's fair. That's completely fair. And I don't really >> So doesn't that feel like straight a lot of straight people at Pride, they're there for the beer and pizza, but they didn't really help you move. [laughter] >> I I guess I I will say I I completely agree. I I also don't know how much personally I moved uh in in the course of all of that. I >> I >> I don't think of myself as as an activist. I think of myself as a person who is trying to get along in life. I like to have conversations with people. I like to spread awareness for things. But >> I guess yeah I don't know >> and and but also to be fair if somebody shows up for the party and is like this is my cause I am going to expect them to continue that and if they don't that I think would be very much worth calling out. I think that at the point where you're like, you have showed up to the party, uh, but you're not, you know, like the order is reversed.

[00:21:48]>> Yeah.

[00:21:49]>> For some people, it's like you we're doing the moving after and if you leave after the party and you don't help with the moving, you're not going to get invited to any more parties.

[00:22:05]>> Interesting.

[00:22:08]That that that moves into the thing that I that that that again like I we're we're we're following that same path that I that I took with Attakus a couple weeks ago. And that is like what what is an ally to you?

[00:22:23][snorts] To me, an ally is somebody who speaks up for and does what they can for for a cause that doesn't necessarily affect them directly.

[00:22:40]>> Nice. I like that.

[00:22:44]I I I I I find that my allyship generally starts when I don't know someone and it doesn't get considered when I do.

[00:22:59]Like I Rudy, I invited you on because you are my friend, not because of weird, [clears throat] you know, not because I'm ticking boxes.

[00:23:13]I'm not an ally for inviting you on. I'm just inviting my friend on to hang out, >> you know, and I feel like somebody who's just like, "Oh god, >> the the the white maleness of it all of my show. We need to have some kind of diversity on like that's a different thing that's happening, you know, and that that's allyship and otherwise it's just friendship."

[00:23:38]I don't know. Like I don't I don't I don't I don't take care of V when they're sick and go I'm being a good ally. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's fair.

[00:23:51]>> And I do think for a lot of the people that I know that are allies, it does come down to them just being friends with queer people and like, yeah, of course I care because these people are my friends.

[00:24:03]>> Yeah, exactly. like are you being an ally or are you being a like I it it it feels like there's a depersonalization happening there and so I don't know does that mean that pride is for allies [laughter] >> like I don't know >> I I always feel like parties are for anyone who isn't going to [ __ ] up the vibe >> yeah that's true and I always [ __ ] up the vibe I I shouldn't go to the parties but I'm Just wondering like, hey, look, you know what? I'm just just just wondering here. Um I don't know. We've got two callers. Um yeah, one of them interesting. Okay, so Jim wants to talk about Lindsey Graham and Chris wants to talk about intent and impact.

[00:24:55]>> Which sounds better?

[00:24:58]>> Let's Let's start with the Lindsy Lindsey Graham discussion.

[00:25:02]>> All right. And oh yeah, it's topical.

[00:25:05]>> Let's let's let's do put this out there.

[00:25:06]Hey everybody, it's a call-in show. You should call in.

[00:25:09]>> It is calling show.

[00:25:10]>> Uh we say half an hour into the show.

[00:25:12]412 Skept. That's 4127537436.

[00:25:14]Or you can go to tiny.cc/skeepen.

[00:25:17]That's tiny.cc kept peen. Callcreener is on the line.

[00:25:21]We want to hear from you.

[00:25:23]>> Um let's start with Jim in Ohio.

[00:25:27]Jim, you're live on the show.

[00:25:29]>> Morning to both of you.

[00:25:31]>> Hey.

[00:25:32]>> Hi. Can I say tell tell your little friend I said hi.

[00:25:36]>> Oh my cat.

[00:25:38]>> So she just heard V getting up upstairs I think. And she scadaddled where more attention can be had. But I promise I will. Uh Jim, what's going on?

[00:25:48]>> Give her a little scratch behind the ear for me.

[00:25:50]>> We'll do what what's going on. Well, when you when you uh began your uh show, you would talk about all of these uh reactions to Lindsay's death. I don't know if I'm putting this way yet. I wasn't planning to call on this, but so I'm trying to get my thoughts together.

[00:26:09]>> Okay.

[00:26:09]>> But uh just I I guess the hypocrisy how when somebody they don't agree with or don't like, as soon as they die, they start saying nice things. my esteemed colleague and I had so much respect and all that.

[00:26:27]>> Now, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I'm not jumping for joy that Lindsey Graham died or anything like that, but >> you know, my feeling is if I don't like somebody when they're alive, I'm not going to turn around and start acting like I just lost the closest one I ever had.

[00:26:45]>> Oh. Oh, yeah. No. I It's It's incredibly frustrating. I think I I I think we should all be much more consistent about talking about people when they die. It's not like Lindsey Graham supported genocide in Palestine.

[00:27:02]Um it is a thing that he actively did and he did not make any bones about it.

[00:27:07]He was very clear that there was no amount of violence that could be done to Palestinians that would go over the line for him.

[00:27:14]um that no matter what the economic situation of the US, he felt that we had a moral imperative to arm and train and do anything we could to support Israel's campaign in Palestine. And um I think that anybody who can summon up good words for that [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] should is a is an op. They're an op.

[00:27:37]>> Yeah.

[00:27:38]>> Yeah.

[00:27:39]>> What do you think? [laughter] I I agree just that if you're doing unequivocally evil things in life, then it's [ __ ] bizarre when you're dead and people turn around and we're like, "Oh, he'll be missed by whom?"

[00:28:00]>> Yeah.

[00:28:01]>> Who who's going to miss him? I I >> And and and and genuinely like I'm sorry, I can't get over the Camel Harris thing. There are atheists in the space who are pieces of [ __ ] And when they die, I will publicly say that they were pieces of [ __ ] I'm not going to say, "Oh, I remember when we were friends, you [laughter] know, >> before all the stuff that where they were a piece of before they did all the terrible things. There was a point in time and I'm just going to celebrate that memory." It's that that definitely feels like praying to baby Jesus and not not adult Jesus, right? Like it's it's so [ __ ] weird.

[00:28:38]Um, [clears throat] okay. But you wanted to talk about hypocrisy. Jim, what what was Instagram hypocritical? Was was it because he was anti-gay and he was very clearly gay.

[00:28:48]>> Well, that but I was talking more about the way people are remembering them. You know, how they don't you don't criticize people just because they died, how they suddenly become saints. Like, are we supposed to say things about Hitler and Stalin? After all, they died. Shouldn't we be saying nice things about them?

[00:29:06]>> Right. Right.

[00:29:08]>> Yeah. And I'm sure that there were people celebrating in the street when when Hitler offed himself. And I don't think that anybody at the time was like, "Well, how could you? He was a he had he had a wife and kids."

[00:29:22]>> He did so good for the German economy.

[00:29:25]>> Yeah, it it is very hypocritical, [snorts] >> but it's also just classic politics to be a hypocrite. I I think I I don't think that there's anything inherently >> uh contradictory about Democratic towing the partyline politicians uh criticizing things that he did in life and then turning around and being like, "What a guy. He'll be missed as soon as he's gone." I don't think there's anything contradictory about that. I think that's kind of the status quo for them.

[00:30:04]Yeah, >> I I remember when Jay Farwell kicked off on ABC News. They were rep doing some kind of a panel discussion. I remember Peter Jennings was there, George will couple others and they would talk about his legacy, moral majority and all that.

[00:30:18]And I couldn't help think about how the day after the day day after that after 911 u Pat Robinson 700 clubs and saying basically I can't help feeling that we brought this down on ourselves of course because of the liberals and the gays and liberals and when he got a backl backlash uh he gave her what's supposed to be an apology like I said I'm still working this in my head so stop and start.

[00:30:49]That's why I'm trying to organize it.

[00:30:52]But I kept thinking about when he was on 700 Club and how he couldn't help but feel we brought this all down ourselves, the feminists and the liberals blah blah blah.

[00:31:04]>> And then when they uh backlash, he gave a quote unquote apology.

[00:31:09]>> As I recall was perhaps my remarks were inappropriate at this time. And I noticed right away all he wasn't really apolog.

[00:31:24]>> Yeah, it would not have been better.

[00:31:27]>> Yeah, but [snorts] and even he couldn't apologize for he said perhaps might be my print number. So what was the apology?

[00:31:36]>> Yeah, you're not exactly taking it back.

[00:31:38]You're just saying that was a little insensitive to say it right after the fact. Well, and also it's insensitive >> wait a week or two [laughter] >> like I [snorts] >> honestly the the >> national fear and uh mourning around 9/11 just ramped up. You know, I feel like in the days and weeks that came after >> the the [sighs and gasps] I'm just How is Pat Robertson still kicking around at all?

[00:32:11]Like >> I think he ticked.

[00:32:13]>> I So Rudy, you're significantly younger than me, right?

[00:32:20]>> Like how old are you?

[00:32:22]>> I'll be 28 this year in November.

[00:32:25]>> A [ __ ] off.

[00:32:28]My birthday my my my birthday was 10 days ago. I turned You You sent me a birthday message. That's right. I turned 39.

[00:32:38]>> Mhm. M >> and when I was little, I remember a movie that I bet you Jim remembers plenty well. Um, did you ever hear Rudy about a movie called Weekend at Bernie's?

[00:32:48]>> Yes, I've been on the internet long enough to I've I've [clears throat] never watched Weekend at Bernie. I do know what goes on in the film [laughter] >> that they're just puppeting around puppeting around their dead boss.

[00:33:02]>> Yes.

[00:33:03]>> For the whole movie. Yeah. I I I it it are we just living that for like numerous senators like and and politicians and [ __ ] Pat Robertson. Jesus Christ. That that that desiccated corpse of a man. I I I don't know. I I I I I I I I I saw video of Pat Robertson recently that just I'm surprised he can even speak still.

[00:33:35]He's so [ __ ] [snorts] Anyway, I apologize.

[00:33:39]>> Y and Power so rarely like to give it up even when they are like >> Okay, now I'm going to make an obscure reference.

[00:33:49]>> Uh uh you know you know Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal.

[00:33:53]>> Yeah.

[00:33:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know the scene where all the Skeksis are around the bed of the one really ancient [laughter] emperor Skeis and he's holding on to his little staff LIKE I'M STILL THE EMPEROR AND then he dies.

[00:34:05]>> Yeah.

[00:34:05]>> Like like literally until the last second they cannot give up power.

[00:34:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:15]Oh.

[00:34:15]>> Way beyond when they should be doing any public speaking. Way beyond when they should be in charge of anything but their own health.

[00:34:23]Yeah. Oh. Oh, could you could you imagine uh you know let's let's go with um >> No, I'm so good. [snorts] >> Oh, sorry, Jim.

[00:34:35]>> Okay, >> the chat's saying that Pat Robertson did die a couple years ago.

[00:34:41]>> Did he die? Let me see. Hold on a second.

[00:34:45]>> I was going to mention >> Yeah, he ticked.

[00:34:49]>> When did he die?

[00:34:51]2023.

[00:34:53]Why are they still talking about him regularly on the 700 Club? [laughter] Why are they still rolling?

[00:34:59]>> They are. They are. We ended up burning Bern Bernzing.

[00:35:03]>> They really Bernie and Sanders.

[00:35:05]>> Oh my god.

[00:35:06]>> Bernie and Sandra Bernzing. Holy [ __ ] >> Oh, see that? Just cuz things are going your way doesn't mean you're winning, right? [laughter] We got to remember this. Ah, that's good. My world is a little better today. I You know, >> that's so funny that they were talking about him in a way that made you believe he was still alive.

[00:35:33]>> Truly. Truly.

[00:35:36]Okay. I'm sorry. I That's That's interesting.

[00:35:41]I'm glad. Good. [laughter] I I truly, you know, I I I know that I'm not the I know I'm I know that I'm the villain in some people's stories.

[00:35:55]And when I kick off, I fully expect them to to pop some champagne in my in my honor. Uh you know, or however they want to celebrate me going. Uh I do not wish them ill will for it. So, here's Steve Robertson.

[00:36:14]>> I don't even I I don't know that I'm the villain in anybody's story except for maybe like a couple of exes.

[00:36:22]>> Well, that's cuz, you know, you're a sweetheart of a person and you still have plenty of time to piss people off terribly.

[00:36:31]>> Oh, yeah. I >> think of a few people. I can think of I think of one or two people who don't like you. Yeah.

[00:36:38]>> Yeah, [laughter] >> I'm all right with that.

[00:36:41]>> Yeah, me too.

[00:36:43]Um, hey Jim. Uh, thank you for calling though. I I appreciate it.

[00:36:48]>> Can I make a couple of quick comments?

[00:36:50]>> Yeah. What's up?

[00:36:50]>> Real quick. Uh, first of all, I heard uh Ruby mentioned her birthday's coming up.

[00:36:54]So, happy birthday, >> Rudy.

[00:36:59]>> And in in November, >> Ruby, but >> yeah, in November. So, you know, in case I don't get to talk to you again, happy birthday. Oh, it's it's it's Rudy. Like, you know.

[00:37:10]>> Oh, >> no.

[00:37:11]>> Yeah, Rudy.

[00:37:12]>> I just read I thought it was a B.

[00:37:15]>> Oh, no. No. It's it's it's D. Just think of uh think of the football player.

[00:37:20]>> Yeah. It's the most common mistake in the world for people to call me Ruby instead of Rudy. And every time it happens, I'm like, how did I pick the one mask sounding name that has a much more common feminine equivalent that people always call me by accident? Oh, well.

[00:37:40][laughter] >> Oh, by the way, uh, Rudy, do you have a YouTube channel I can watch?

[00:37:48]>> I have an old YouTube channel that has a a backlog of content for you to enjoy.

[00:37:53]uh ex cult baby ex c u l t b- a b y uh and you know you can see a a younger skinnier me uh >> by now more full of of light and and full of full of dreams and hopes.

[00:38:12][laughter] >> Yes, I hadn't been been entirely crushed by being an online content creator yet.

[00:38:18]I [laughter] Yeah, Jim. I the the the great thing about where I'm at with this show is I can call up my friends who are all old content creators and we can just shoot the [ __ ] and I know that the people I call up would not go on for anybody else, but they'll come on for me and [laughter] I'm grateful. So, it definitely is one of those things that for people who like and have been in this space and watched atheist content creators for years and years and years, um, you'll wind up seeing people on here that are just like, [gasps] "Oh my gosh, you know, where have you been?" So, >> yeah.

[00:38:52]>> I know I sound like I know I sound like Columbbo, but can I uh say one quick thing about Pat Robinson? You have another caller.

[00:39:00]>> No, no, please go right ahead.

[00:39:03]what he said about farwell perhaps my remarks were inappropriate at this time well I know when Robinson got some feedback I don't know if he saw 700 club I watched it once because I didn't know what it was about the format at least at that time was a copy of giant car giant carson's tonight of the desk and the >> uh couch whatever yeah >> and uh well afterwards when he got criticism for that uh he claim I guess I didn't really hear or understand exactly why he said and yet if that clip is still available on YouTube you can see he's not just singing the chair he's actually leaning over he's practically right in the Jerry Fwell's ear so it's no way but I guess I misheard or misunderstood what he said >> yeah I Jerry Fwell alone was just a piece of [ __ ] I so I I I was watching the 700 Club last week um the reason >> you just love torturing yourself Don't you?

[00:40:01]>> I work for other atheist content creators who would rather not do it.

[00:40:06]>> Um, that's rare.

[00:40:07]>> And I've done it for years. Oh, it was worse when I was doing stuff for Holy Kool-Aid. I would watch dozens and dozens and dozens of hours of the worst of the worst. But no, uh, I was I was working on a video that just came out for Drew 5 days ago called American Christianity is a capitalist cult. Um, and yeah, it had me watching 700 Club and it's not any better.

[00:40:33]It It has not gotten better.

[00:40:36]>> I want to >> Yeah, but um speaking of Drew and his channel, there is a video that we put out that I think you should watch, Jim.

[00:40:46]Um >> Okay, let me get my pen.

[00:40:48]>> Yeah, you get your pen and then uh let me see if I can get it. We're This is great content right now. [laughter] Uh, let me see. Where is it?

[00:41:03]>> I think >> you could put a link in your description down description.

[00:41:07]>> I I'll pop a link in the description after the show. Don't worry about it.

[00:41:11]>> Okay.

[00:41:11]>> All right. Hey, Jim, thank you for calling in.

[00:41:14]>> Thank you. And again, happy birthday, Rudy.

[00:41:17]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Thank you.

[00:41:21]Bye.

[00:41:24]>> Man, that's got to be my earliest early happy birthday I've gotten so far. Yeah.

[00:41:29]>> Not even my not even my partner has wished me that early of a happy early birthday.

[00:41:33]>> Cheers. I Yeah.

[00:41:38]I >> But I deserve it. Dang it.

[00:41:40]>> Damn straight you do. [laughter] Damn straight you do. Um All right. Let's move on and talk to Chris in Scotland.

[00:41:47]Chris is one of the sweetest, most empathetic callers. He always like just talking to Chris makes me feel like I'm getting a big hug. So, I'm happy for it.

[00:41:55]Chris, you're live on the show.

[00:41:58]>> Hi there, guys. How are you doing today?

[00:42:01]>> Right. We're doing great. Chris, what's [laughter] what's on your mind?

[00:42:06]>> So, I was wondering what your thoughts were both of you on um what does it mean to be good or bad? Uh, and more specifically, are you defined by your thoughts or your actions? Um, for example, someone like Lindsay Graham who uh says the most horrendous things and has the most out overtly has the most horrendous ideology.

[00:42:31]>> Yeah.

[00:42:31]>> What if inside despite all of that, he has a really nice personality that just he never shows to anyone? And equally, what if, let's say, I I don't know, Mr. Rogers deep inside. I'm a big fan of Mr. Rogers. No, no hate to Mr. Rogers.

[00:42:47][laughter] >> He He's still alive, right?

[00:42:51]>> No. [laughter] >> Sorry. Anyway, go ahead, Chris. I apologize.

[00:42:58]>> Um, you know what? What if inside Mr. Rod, despite all external appearances, he was some sort of evil maniac? Um, what what defines whether you're a good person or a bad person? Is it your words, your actions, or is it your thoughts? Or is it some average of the two?

[00:43:18]>> Oh, >> I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

[00:43:21]>> Oh, I've got so many thoughts, but I will run rough shot over everyone here, so I'm going to go last. Rudy, what's what do you think?

[00:43:28]>> Uh, [sighs and gasps] I I think I mean, your thoughts inform your actions most of the time.

[00:43:38]So I I do think that your your the actions that you take are a pretty good indicator of what's going on inside most of the time.

[00:43:50]That being said, uh the way that you act, the way that you speak is the thing that actually affects other people. What goes on inside of your head >> is for nobody but you. And you don't even always like what's going on in there. I can tell you plenty of times that I am, you know, I'm I I I feel things and I think things that I wish that I wasn't thinking and feeling and I act in a way that's Sorry. Go ahead.

[00:44:20]>> No, no. I was just I was just checking in with you.

[00:44:23]>> Yeah. And and and the way that you act and speak >> can be very different from the things that you're thinking and feeling.

[00:44:32]Uh because no matter what you're thinking and feeling, ultimately the things that you do are your decision. [snorts] Uh and even when it isn't your decision, it's still your responsibility.

[00:44:46]like, you know, in the in the extenduating circumstances that somebody might hypothetically raise where somebody could do something that they didn't necessarily decide to do.

[00:44:56][snorts] Ultimately, you are responsible for your actions towards other people. You're responsible for the words that you say. That is the point at which people are held to a standard of right and wrong, good and bad. And trying to get into I think judging someone for who they are based on their thoughts and feelings is a impossible because >> all of someone's thoughts and feelings are never going to be expressed out loud. I I think for the most part I don't think anybody I don't think there's anybody who can truly express the entirety of their inner world to other people.

[00:45:43]Um so it doesn't affect anybody but yourself.

[00:45:48]But also, not only can you not judge that because it's not necessarily anything that anybody can see, but it would be bad if you could because people have irrational, you know, uh, thoughts and feelings all the time that they don't necessarily want or act on you.

[00:46:11]Yeah. I and as somebody who has dealt with a lot of shame and a lot of like I I spent my entire childhood with this sort of paranoia that God and the angels were watching me and they knew what I was thinking and they knew what I was feeling and they knew what I was looking at and they knew when I was like, you know, masturbating and they knew when I was slacking off and they knew when I was like checking a girl out.

[00:46:42]You know, that kind of thought crime paranoia is terrible for you.

[00:46:49]>> Yeah.

[00:46:50]>> And if you're too caught up in guilt about your thoughts and feelings, you're not going to focus on the thing that actually matters, which is how you actually act and and talk to people and the things that you do. Uh so that's that's my take. That's my take.

[00:47:11]>> Yeah.

[00:47:12]>> No, that's that's a really interesting um take and it's you're making a good point that um it isn't not in actuality your actions that um that other people can experience and the impact others and that you know you can't fully be held responsible for all of your thoughts because you know your thoughts don't necessarily roll over into your actions all the time. Um but yeah.

[00:47:39]Yeah. So I, as you're talking, Rudy, I'm trying to like sort my thoughts. I think I think I have three buckets here.

[00:47:46][laughter] >> So I think like from the the 30,000 ft, you know, a high-end perspective, Chris, >> um, Hegel um, had this this this way of looking at things. Have you ever heard of Hegelian dialectics?

[00:48:05]I think I've heard of it, but I don't know who Hegel is.

[00:48:08]>> Uh Hegel is a philosopher that will bore you to tears. So, let me help.

[00:48:13][laughter] >> They all bore me to tears.

[00:48:15]>> So, so Hegel believes that we need other people to validate us.

[00:48:22]We need the only way that we're able to see ourselves is often in the eyes of others. And so, without other people, we're not able to identify ourselves, >> right?

[00:48:34]Um, and so when you're talking about judging people by their actions, I think that's a reflection of the way that we see ourselves because we need other people to see us do things, right?

[00:48:47]There's a reason why conspicuous consumption is a thing because we want other people to see us and we think that is how we're we're saying we're successful, right? Oh, I have all these nice things. I need my neighbor to be jealous of me so I can enjoy my nice things, right? Like that's just kind of how that works. and and it's it's it's shitty, but it's human nature.

[00:49:06]>> And so, like I remember, >> you know, moving into kind of the bucket number two, this personal bit is um I have like Rudy, I've absolutely internalized a lot of self-hate.

[00:49:23]>> Yeah. And honestly, it's saved me when it came to making content online because if people are just like, "Man, I [ __ ] hate Eric's stupid [ __ ] face." I've gone in the comments and I've been like, "Me, too." [laughter] There's there's nothing you can say that I don't think about myself, too. But like, >> yeah, >> I remember I was talking to to a good friend uh when I was really active at the ACA. And I was like, I I feel I feel like I'm such a bad person. And they're like, "Yeah, but you're doing all this good stuff." And if you're faking it until you make it, and by faking it, you're making the world a better place.

[00:50:00]the whole way along the way. Then at the end of the day, think what you want about yourself, but you did great things.

[00:50:07]>> You were a good person, you know? Uh and and so like there's that piece of it is that, >> you know, you even if you think you're faking it, if you spend your life making the world a better place for others, that's what you're going to be remembered as. That's what you're going to see reflected back at you, you know.

[00:50:31]And yeah, no, Rudy, you're right. We all have we all have intrusive thoughts. You know, that baby's screaming on the airplane. You fantasize about punting that baby like a football. You're never going to do it. You [laughter] You're never going to do it.

[00:50:48]But so so so don't so be a little kinder to yourself when it comes to the the obtrusive thoughts. It doesn't make you a bad person. Now, the last thing, Chris, is that I feel like there is a reason why people want you to hold yourself accountable for your thoughts.

[00:51:06]And I think there's some revolutionary ideology that we need to inject into you, Chris.

[00:51:11]>> Okay.

[00:51:12]>> Okay. So, I believe that the priest tells you you are a sinner so that they can absolve you of your sin because it keeps you under their control and it costs them nothing to fix you, quote unquote.

[00:51:25]things like indulgences, >> right? And they can sell you indulgences. Exactly. Right. I I think that um when you look at goddy [ __ ] >> you know, Donald Trump [ __ ] on a goldplated toilet or whatever the [ __ ] we sit there and we pat ourselves on the back cuz we go, I'm modest. I don't need all of those nice things. I think that is definitely us having internalized a talking point that the rich people want us to have and that is that we need to be happy in our squalor.

[00:52:00]Yeah, [laughter] >> we need to suffer and then tell ourselves that we're the really good modest ones because you know we have created a morality around suffering >> right >> and that is also true of you know being a good person right are you thinking of yourself as a good person uh you know if you you can genuinely have the worst thoughts and if you are a billionaire who is giving away your billions to help other people. They're going to build a statue of you in the town square.

[00:52:33][laughter] Like >> you know who gives a [ __ ] Who gives a [ __ ] Don't let other people control you by telling you that their thought that your thoughts make you a bad person. Do the things that make you a good person.

[00:52:45]And don't [ __ ] worry about the rest.

[00:52:48]You are only helping the people who are going to put you down by tormenting yourself because they taught you to. You learned how to do it and so you kept doing it so they don't have to do it for you.

[00:52:59]and to completely derail this. Well, not completely, but that's that's one of the things that I kind of have an issue with in terms of like original sin is like, well, you're inherently bad.

[00:53:11]>> Mhm.

[00:53:11]>> And it's like, okay, but I'm not doing inherently bad. I'm trying my best to not actually do bad. And if the Christian version of salvation from being inherently bad is to just get a guy to forgive you as opposed to actively trying to be good, that seems like kind of a waste. That seems like it's only for your own self asssurance and not for actually putting good into the world.

[00:53:47]Yeah, that that's a good point and and thank you. I'll be honest, I uh I really needed to hear some of that. Um yeah, >> good. Yeah, I it it truly is a a mind [ __ ] that we have been born into where a world tells you that you're you know you're create you you are starting off as a bad person. What a [ __ ] [ __ ] worldview.

[00:54:17]And and and and >> I also know lots of babies and toddlers who are great people.

[00:54:22]>> They're hilarious and funny and wonderful and they have the instinct to share with others uh and to to laugh and learn >> and no instinct for self-preservation.

[00:54:38]But [laughter] >> yeah, >> I I mean even sort of I I suppose I think about about it more of a sort of not necessarily other people how other people judge you, more of a kind of a God's eye view to to speak poetically um in in terms of sort of yeah in characteristics. Um but you're right, it is you know people often do um yeah people often do try to um emban to use a Simpsons word themselves by uh belittling others. Um I I think in my case um to get slightly personal um I kind of have since I can remember had this kind of feeling that I'm not a good person. Um, and because of that, I go out of my way to um to try to do good things, to raise money for charity, to, you know, to to do good. Um, and it's something kind of, um, yeah, it's been a kind of a long-standing question in my mind of what makes you good, your your innate characteristics or your your actions or your thoughts, I suppose.

[00:55:53]>> Sorry to ramble.

[00:55:54]>> No, you're good.

[00:55:56]And I I hope that >> uh I hope that you realize that we weren't saying all of this for your benefit. I hope that you realize that we weren't just trying to make you feel better and that that's genuinely what we think.

[00:56:08]>> Yeah.

[00:56:09]>> No, of course >> I >> because that's that's the standard that we have to hold ourselves to as well. I think everybody has to figure out for them >> what good they can put into the world and how they can do their best to be a good person.

[00:56:22]and and yeah, the only things that you're ever going to see reflected back at you are the things that you put out there. And that's that's actions. That's actions, >> you know? Um they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?

[00:56:38]And like you definitely see that reflected in like this patriarchal, you know, well, I wasn't trying to be a sexist piece of [ __ ] I just thought that she would look prettier if she smiled more often. I didn't I didn't have bad [laughter] I didn't have these the I I wasn't trying to be a piece of [ __ ] It's like no, but you were [laughter] like like I >> being told to smile is why I don't do well in the the customerf facing side of the service industry.

[00:57:08]>> Then I'm just going to go >> Yeah. I I I mean genuinely like you you see every person who's accused of murder who goes well I wasn't trying to kill them. It's like they're dead though.

[00:57:23][laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:57:25]>> The impact is still there even if the intent isn't >> Yeah. I I I I mean great intent and bad impact is still bad impact. Bad intent and good impact is just you being a shitty villain and you [laughter] know like I I I genuinely >> do good things, see that reflected back at you and give yourself a break because that's the other thing. No one is going to be as hard on you as you. Your biggest >> That's very true.

[00:57:54]>> Yeah. Your biggest enemy is you when it comes to that. Um >> Yeah, that that's true.

[00:57:59]>> Yeah. Self-compassion is a thing we all need, especially those of us who have like religious trauma that we are carrying with us. you.

[00:58:10]>> I mean, I think that might be like um I mean, I think part of it just growing up in a kind of an abusive home, but I think part of it is that I I phoned them once and I told you that I was exposed to a lot of crucifixion imagery as a child, right? Remember?

[00:58:24]>> Yeah.

[00:58:25]>> Um and so, um because of the fact that I I have kind of medical issues that affect my emotion emotional regulation and uh all that sort of thing. And because of that and the fact I had sort of these nightmares about Jesus for a certain portion of my childhood, I I actually thought I was possessed. And I think that that kind of abuse of home life, that's kind of artly where that's came from. This feeling that sort of you are kind of just like an evil person.

[00:58:58]>> Um, and that's kind of part of what I've kind of tried to fight against almost for a long time. I I I I'm I'm surprised I'm saying this, but if you do want like the philosophical piece, check out Hegel >> dialectics. There's a lot about like the structures of power as well.

[00:59:16]>> And this idea that Yeah. that there's this idea that like >> one side has power and one side is is underneath the other. And so, you know, we see, you know, uh one side will continuously seek to put themselves above the other. But in doing so, you can no longer see yourself. You need to have a peer validate you as a person. And so, you stop growing.

[00:59:44]And there's this there there's this whole thing around it that I don't know.

[00:59:49]It it's it's it's it ties into revolutionary ideology. Uh so I I definitely think you should check it out.

[00:59:58]>> I will do. And listen, um, thank you both for kind of taking the time to chat. Um, yeah, I wasn't quite sure whether to phone in about it because I appreciate it's it's slightly different to a lot of the kind of paranormal, supernatural, skeptic stuff, but yeah, I thought I would give it a go. And yeah, thank you for your time.

[01:00:17]>> Absolutely. I always love when you call in, Chris. It is.

[01:00:20]>> Oh, thank you, pal.

[01:00:21]>> Yeah. See, he calls me pal. How could I not want Chris to call in? Chris, you take care. [laughter] >> Take care.

[01:00:29]>> No worries. Have a good day.

[01:00:30]>> You, too.

[01:00:32]>> Thanks so much.

[01:00:34]>> Isn't Chris a sweetheart?

[01:00:36]>> Yeah, that was a great call.

[01:00:37]>> Oh, >> and I I very much empathize with religious trauma and family abuse dynamics sort of feeding into that internalized sense that you're just you just aren't good inherently. It doesn't matter what you do. And it took yeah that that definitely took some unlearning for me. Uh it's it's an ongoing struggle but realistically the people that are making that struggle are the people who are actively thinking about how they can put good into the world. And that's a net positive I'd say.

[01:01:16]>> Yeah.

[01:01:18]I we really do internalize it though, don't we? Like, >> yeah, >> nobody is harder on me than me. And I know nobody is harder on you than you.

[01:01:31]And yet we still Yeah.

[01:01:34]>> I mean, my dad was pretty hard on me, but he's not around my life anymore.

[01:01:38][laughter] So, the people that were harder on me than I was are people that I got out of my life. So, >> cheers to that. Cheers to that.

[01:01:48]H Yeah. I I don't have a drink. I just have my water. I have my uh very lightly alcoholic beer.

[01:01:57]>> Nice. It's noon, right? On a Sunday.

[01:02:00]That's fine.

[01:02:01]>> Yeah, it's a Sunday.

[01:02:02]>> Cheers. [laughter] >> Um yeah. I don't know. I feel like I talked about all the things I wanted to talk about. Let me put the phone number out one more time and then you let me know if there's anything else you wanted to to hit. Otherwise, >> you know, I there is a little something I want to talk about which is uh something that I feel like we have touched on in conversation before, but we've never really gotten to dive into.

[01:02:32]>> Okay.

[01:02:33]>> Uh uh and this is completely different from the other topics they were talking about, but >> okay, before we before we start this chapter, 412 Skept 4127537436 or you can go to tiny.cc/scaption and the tiny.cc/ CCS kegnen. Our call screener Kina is on the line uh waiting to screen your call so we can talk to you. All right, hit me. What's up, >> Eric? You have expressed to me >> uh as a fellow queer friend that you you don't always feel like you >> belong in queer spacesh.

[01:03:07]>> Mhm. And I would like to talk about that as as someone who had who who [laughter] is used to not belonging and then just shows up anyway and is like, "Well, if you all don't want me here, you're going to have to tell me explicitly cuz I don't take hints." Uh [laughter and gasps] >> Rudy, I have seen you enter new spaces, I think, four times. Different spaces.

[01:03:35]One, two, three. Yeah, four. four unique times that I've seen you enter into community and you have immediately belonged every single time. It's hard for me to see that.

[01:03:47]>> Maybe you just got one of those faces.

[01:03:48]You got one of those, >> but I'm telling you that it's like that for me because I go in it deciding that I'm either going to belong or I am going to walk away because I don't want to be there.

[01:03:59]>> Fair.

[01:04:01]>> And that's important, I think.

[01:04:06]because I have also been I've also, you know, been in places that I didn't feel belonging and I either decided I was going to do what I could to change the space or I was just going to find somewhere else to be.

[01:04:23]And >> I I care about you deeply. And I want >> I don't want you to feel left out.

[01:04:38]>> I am I [snorts] sincerely appreciate that.

[01:04:43]And I guess we should clarify for people watching why why you say that. And that's because uh I although I am bisexual, I am very just just look like a dude. And I don't I don't I don't know what's what's the word. Um >> you don't think that you're projecting querness.

[01:05:13]>> I don't.

[01:05:15]And I think that that is a social signal. And I think it's one that in the same way that like I'll talk about being Mexican, but I don't project myself that way. And that's because that's just not how I grew up and it feels inauthentic.

[01:05:34]And it feels like I didn't even open myself up to, you know, it being okay to be with other genders [laughter] or my own gender um till after 30.

[01:05:55]And so like [snorts and clears throat] I just I I spent that time othering myself. And so yeah, no I I feel like a interloper and I think that I don't want to feel like a like a poser or reap the I don't know be a part of the same celebrations that other people who project themselves. Oh my god, that's the most >> You guys saw that attack, right?

[01:06:33]>> Yes, that was >> how I got completely blindsided by this child.

[01:06:36]>> Oh, she's adorable. Yeah, I I I don't know. I don't [snorts] know. I feel all kinds of ways about that. I don't know.

[01:06:45]>> Yeah. And I I get it. Uh I feel the same way in some in some ways with my with my blackness uh being being mixed.

[01:06:59]Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[01:07:03]>> Look, look, [laughter] me and the whole all the viewers, we are all on team kitty. Uh, >> he's he's he's great. He's wonderful. He will knock stuff over and bite things and uh yeah, >> see, >> I love him so much, but but he's not a camera kitty.

[01:07:20]>> Our our ours got all of her teeth removed last December, and so now when she bites and attacks things, it's just more adorable.

[01:07:29]Yeah. No, he's very sharp. [laughter] >> He's he's he's not a gummy boy.

[01:07:35]>> No. Someday maybe.

[01:07:37][laughter] >> But anyways, um I do feel that in the sense that, you know, obviously I, you know, one of my parents is black, but that parent also has a lot of internalized racism.

[01:07:52]Uh >> yeah.

[01:07:55]>> And I >> I did grow up feeling on the outside of blackness.

[01:08:02]>> Oh, yeah.

[01:08:03]>> While also being, you know, not white or any other category really that I could slot myself into.

[01:08:11]>> Well, and it's not like anyone else is going to slot you into those either.

[01:08:15]Like, >> no, no, I get you. My my my birth mom and my uncles and all of them, they all married white people. they all stop speaking Spanish and [clears throat] they all, you know, are are as whitewashed as they they they want to be and they want to be very much. Um, and yeah, in any white groups, I was always the Mexican of the group. It's not like I got to slot myself as a white person, you know, being half white and uh, you know, um, you know, the same the other way around.

[01:08:43]When I was a Mexican, it like like it's Yeah. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. See, that's where you can't do you can't do >> What's going on? Are we batting the Are we batting the camera?

[01:08:52]Oh, he was rubbing up. He was fully going to knock it down, but [laughter] >> he's so stinking cute, though. Um, >> yeah, >> he's also very persistent.

[01:09:05]>> Um, >> I get that.

[01:09:06]>> Yeah, I I and I get that. Obviously, it's a little bit different with queerness and with bisexuality.

[01:09:13]Um, it's a lot different, but I also think that I deserve to be part of black spaces as much as anybody else.

[01:09:33]I have Oh my god.

[01:09:36][laughter] Sorry.

[01:09:39]I have the experiences of being a a racially mixed person, and that comes with a lot of the same experiences as being a dark-skinned black person uh in this country.

[01:09:57]And you have lots of experiences that you and would associate with being perceived as a cystraight male.

[01:10:09]But you have the experiences of being a bisexual man cuz you are.

[01:10:14]>> Yeah.

[01:10:15]>> No matter what anybody might think looking at you.

[01:10:20]>> Yeah. But so so >> you are engaged to >> So let's let's let's >> most mask [laughter] person.

[01:10:28][gasps] >> Yes. Yes I am. V is your classic whiskey and cigars [laughter] kind of guy. And I totally I I I I I guess I think that Do you ever watch Torchwood? Do you know who Jack Harkness is?

[01:10:47]>> I know who Jack Harkness is. I watched like one episode of Torchwood and I was like, I don't know if this is for me.

[01:10:53]>> Bisexual, pansexual icon. Uh, >> I think that someone who the world needs to see the butthole.

[01:11:06][laughter] >> He does love to show it off.

[01:11:09]>> Yep. Yep. Yep. [laughter] I God damn it. Um, I don't know. I I I I feel like even the most out and proud bisexual people are still trailing when it comes to LGBT stuff. Um, >> so [snorts] you know, I I'll go and hang out and I'll, you know, all of that stuff. There's no part of me that's like denying or saying that's not the case. I just I feel like I need to just shut up, you know, and and >> that's the part that I makes me go, "Ah, see, but your experiences matter as much as anybody else's, and I don't know why you think you need to shut up. Why are you the one that needs to shut up?

[01:12:10]On July 19th, 2026, Rudy asked a sis guy on the internet why he needs to shut up.

[01:12:21]>> Yeah, I think >> No, you know what? The world hasn't heard enough sis guys on the internet, white passing guys. I'm sure I'm sure there are plenty of of of >> [laughter] >> I'll I'll start a podcast about it. How about that? Oh, wait. I [laughter] did.

[01:12:40]>> And you're not wrong. Are there lots of of sis guys that probably need to shut up?

[01:12:48]>> And and and and by the way, the Mexican piece of that doesn't help. Nick Fuentes is a person. Like, let's not [ __ ] Jesus Christ.

[01:12:57]>> That is so unfortunate. That is so unfortunate.

[01:13:03]Yeah.

[01:13:05]>> So, >> but I'm but I'm not Eric. You're not >> you're not a demographic.

[01:13:14]You're >> I mean, by definition, I am.

[01:13:17]>> I mean, yes.

[01:13:21]I guess my my personal hang-up >> Yeah. is uh I have I know so many awesome people with so many valuable insights and you're certainly one of them and you do put your insights out there and that's wonderful and I'm so glad that people uh get to hear your voice.

[01:13:46]Uh and I'm glad that you have the opportunity to platform other people.

[01:13:49]>> [ __ ] yeah. Which >> you clearly do.

[01:13:51]>> I get to platform my friends which is amazing.

[01:13:57]But I I I I just hate to see anybody, but especially my friends, uh feeling like, well, this isn't my place to speak up when when there are so many people who have so much less right to speak up, [laughter] who are doing plenty of it.

[01:14:22]>> Yeah.

[01:14:24]You know what I mean?

[01:14:25]>> I do. And and I think that to the degree that I can like having pride conversations, I feel like I'm way more comfortable having pride conversations than a straight guy.

[01:14:38][laughter] You know, you want to get into the discourse about allyship and all that [ __ ] like I'm I'm in. Um, you know, and and and in in the same when it does come to race stuff, like I am more comfortable talking about race stuff than I think a cishat white ally should feel comfortable, [laughter] you know, and I [cough] so I I guess I do have that. But you're right. And also I don't know. I think [sighs] you know you you know what it is I think it's just a reflection of that self-hate going back to Chris's call you know we find ways to invalidate ourselves right I get active you know I was active in trans spaces way before I even knew I was an atheist you know my best friend growing up as a did turn out to be a trans dude. Uh, which by the way is funny cuz like most people when they like meet trans people, they meet trans women. And all of my experience was a trans dude until like way later in my life and then I met trans women.

[01:16:00][laughter] Um, but um I I don't even know where I'm going with this. That's okay. Um, I had a point and I lost it. I I I think that um I'll try. I I I'm I'm I'm happy to be validated by the people who love me in my life. And and and that feels good.

[01:16:30]And I've got you here, too. And that that that that makes me feel so happy.

[01:16:34]And um >> if there's anything that I'm good at, it's validating my friends.

[01:16:38]>> I appreciate it. I Oh, what I was going to say is that like Yeah. So, I get inv I get active in trans spaces and so I go, "Okay, am I an ally?" Well, I'm just hanging out with my friends. If my friend is sick and I bring them chicken soup, I'm not going to pat myself on the back and say, "I'm being a good ally for bringing my friend [ __ ] chicken soup." Okay.

[01:16:56]>> Yeah, but allies should been patting themselves on the back. Period.

[01:17:00]>> I feel like that's all they they get.

[01:17:01]They should they I I so honestly I I was uh V and I have this joke that we wish we could go back in time and create a bot for Twitter back when Twitter was Twitter and just call it like ally cookies, you know, or like like you know and and and that way if somebody does a thing, people can like award them cookies and it'll just keep a counter of how many cookies they earned because like they're not getting invited to the party, >> you know? They don't. Why? Cuz they make it weird. They do. They make it weird.

[01:17:33]So So, so give him the cookie.

[01:17:36][laughter] That's great. I don't get the cookie because I brought you chicken soup cuz you're my friend and that's just what I would do. So what am I doing in in larger spaces? Okay. I get into a larger space and I get active and I get active in a in a more politically oriented space and then I go, okay, now's my time to give the microphone to the people who deserve to be in front of the microphone. So, I have no reason to be in front of that. And so, the only time that I do have to speak up is time when I should be handing the mic over to somebody else. And the times that I am doing things, I'm doing things because of these are people I genuinely care about. And so, at what point do I get the cookie? I don't want the [laughter] there's no place where that happens. And so I guess I never really give myself points in that category.

[01:18:24]>> Yeah. I guess uh something that uh Titan Uranus official said in chat is that we should pat our allies on the back, but they shouldn't expect it. They shouldn't expect our cookies.

[01:18:34]>> Yeah. I hope I'm a good ally.

[01:18:36]>> And that's I guess that's the part that I that I care about is like, yeah, I'll give I'll give the allies their cookies when when when it when it comes up.

[01:18:44]Yeah. Give them the cookie. They get the cookie. Give >> their cookies.

[01:18:47]>> Absolutely. And and and and >> but the expectation of cookies is the part where it's like, are you even being an ally or do you just want cookies?

[01:18:55]>> Well, and but but but that goes back to Chris's call. What if somebody only wants cookies all day long and all they did was do wonderful things for the world?

[01:19:04]>> Great. I guess [laughter] >> like >> that doesn't mean I have to personally like you. I can think that you're kind of a [ __ ] but you're putting good into the world, so I can't complain. That means you don't need to be a friend.

[01:19:14]They're just an ally.

[01:19:16]>> Yeah, that's fair, >> right?

[01:19:20]>> Well, >> I don't know. I I and and and I I don't think it's a bad thing. I think some people Jeez, I Okay. Yeah, we're getting way off base and I really don't care anymore. Um, I I I was working for this fintech company in the Midwest. And did did I tell you the story about when I got flown out to that conference and I was the only non-white person at this entire massive retreat?

[01:19:44]>> I've You've told me about this, but I don't remember the details. No, I uh so one person's husband saw me and and and found out, you know, that I'm Mexican, and he sat me down >> and he dominated my time for over a half hour, like 45 minutes about, just to tell me, he wanted to tell me all the Mexican people he knew and all the good Mexican food that he likes. And he just went on.

[01:20:15]I just needed to be his sounding board for me for him to rattle off all the Mexican people he knows and why.

[01:20:29]>> Yeah.

[01:20:30]>> Why?

[01:20:32]>> I know what he wanted. He wanted me to be like, "Oh, thank you so much. Thank you." So, oh, you're such a Oh, thank [snorts] you. You know.

[01:20:43]>> Yeah. [laughter] like I don't know I that that's a whole other conversation I guess but um yeah there are people who do grow up in spaces where they're not around anyone that's not like them and if they have the capacity in their heart to want to empathize with other people regardless of the fact that they don't have trans folks in their life they don't have LGBT folks in their life, you know, whatever the case is. They don't have people of color in their life because they're in bum [ __ ] Iowa.

[01:21:22][snorts] >> Hey, I'm in bum [ __ ] Ohio and lots of people know me.

[01:21:25]>> This is true, but you're probably the one person they know. [laughter] >> The thing is, the thing is being in [ __ ] Ohio and being visibly queer means I also know all the other queer people that live here cuz we find each other and I'm like there are lots of us.

[01:21:41]Well, not maybe not lots. Slots is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[01:21:45]>> Okay, we're here.

[01:21:46]>> You know what? C can we get into that for just a second? Cuz that is interesting, too. Is just like for all the people who say, "I don't know any queer folks."

[01:21:54]>> You do.

[01:21:57]>> They've just not sought you out.

[01:22:00]>> And it could be for good or bad reasons, you know, whatever the case is. They are not seeking you out. Doesn't mean they're not there. But >> there's also, this is something that I my my sister-in-law was talking to me a little while ago about um my her husband, my brother-in-law's trans coworker who just goes by, you know, like her dead name at work. And uh which is very normal experience for trans people. Like to me, she's like, "Oh, you know, she's like so confused by it." It's like, you know, her name is really this, but at work, she goes by that. And and and Matt tries really hard to gender her correctly, but nobody else does. It doesn't seem to make a difference. And I'm like, "Yeah, I like there's like a meme that I've seen that's just like, oh, I'm a he they, but I have a job, so you know."

[01:22:57][laughter] >> Yeah.

[01:23:02]I I I feel like that would make Matt Walsh's head explode [laughter] >> or like Ben Shapiro's head explode. Like Like didn't the Daily Wire do like a whole comedy quote unquote where they played >> men pretending to be women so that they could dominate in sports? Do you remember that?

[01:23:22]>> Yes. Yes. I I saw I didn't watch it cuz I would never give the Daily Wire my money and I'm not good at pirating. Uh, and it also just sounded incredibly unpleasant. I don't even like most mainstream comedy films, and this one looked like a particularly bad one.

[01:23:41]>> Yeah, I they I they have this idea that like non-binary folks will lose their minds if you get their pronouns wrong. And it's like, [ __ ] people got to work.

[01:23:58]like like you know if if if you work service industry no one is going to treat you like a human regardless of your pronouns espe [laughter] yeah it's like it's like even the sis people are getting treated like [ __ ] what I expect >> yeah and and and and then I was sitting there you know you like it you're getting you're getting demeaned regardless like don't I yeah that would make their head explo load. I I >> Yeah.

[01:24:28]>> Yeah.

[01:24:29]>> And it is nice when my co-workers remember to gender me correctly because my co-workers do care about me and do want me to feel good about myself and they apologize when they get my pronouns wrong, which they usually do. Very few people that I work with consistently gender me correctly, but none of them have ever, but they all know that I'm trans and they all at least try.

[01:24:58]>> Yeah.

[01:24:58]>> And that is way more meaningful to me uh than being consistently, you know, gendered correctly by customers cuz I don't know them and most of the time I don't want to. I Oh, okay. So, it is funny. I I I I I have been called out by V in the past for this kind of conversation, by the way, because I feel like like there's the 101 entrylevel course on LGBT stuff.

[01:25:29]And like we're having more advanced conversations that you need to have kind of the the the previous work for. And it makes me glad that this community is smaller because we get to have these conversations. Um but uh have you I I I just just just as as an aside because it's it popped into my head. Um I I I fell down that rabbit hole of non-gendered pronouns and just started calling people friend and calling everybody they them and getting deeply corrected by binary trans folks.

[01:26:07]>> Yeah.

[01:26:09]Yeah. that.

[01:26:10]>> Yeah.

[01:26:11]>> Yeah.

[01:26:13]I I I get the I get the desire to do that off the bat of just being like, "Well, if I don't get it wrong, per se, then you can just correct me to what the right thing is if you if you if you bother." But [gasps] >> but I get it, too. Like if if if you put in the work so that you can be called she her and then people still aren't doing it. I get that. That would suck. Like most of the time, people that are uh not exactly not exactly allies, but also just want to be respectful to me will simply call me by my name and not use a pronoun, which I know is just a a not very sly way of not misgendering me to my face, but also not really calling me the thing I've asked to be called. Uh >> yeah.

[01:27:13]you know, there's lots of there's lots of little nuances to it, but at the end of the day, like actually, you know what? Since we're already way off of wherever we started from, >> it's all right.

[01:27:28]>> I >> We want We >> I really do Sorry. Go ahead.

[01:27:32]>> We actually did want to talk about pride and queer stuff. So, we're where we're we're Yeah.

[01:27:37]I really do hate being misgendered, but I also if I had the if I had the energy to fight every time to to correct people every time I got misgendered, I would be a different person. I don't have that energy.

[01:27:55]>> And and and also, I don't know, the narrative is so frustrating that like I I I'll I'll get real personal. um probably to a level I don't normally do on this show, but um my my my current stepdad, my mom's current husband, his name is Jeff, and he is one of the sweetest human beings on the planet. He's the only person I ever went, "Oh, hey, you're actually like a dad." Like, wow, that's amazing. Like sweet human being.

[01:28:30]He's he's ma and also he loves the [ __ ] out of V and like they do the whiskey and cigar thing together. And when he first met V, he got V's pronouns wrong at one point and he started to panic and tear up because he was afraid that he ruined his chance of having a relationship with this person with V. And he was he had mentally prepared himself to be berated and belittled for getting a pronoun wrong. And it >> we needed to like, [laughter] you know, >> yeah, >> diffuse the worry because there was this cultural >> viewpoint on the right that the left is going to chew your head off for getting a pronoun wrong.

[01:29:24]>> Yeah. God, if I chewed everybody's head off who got a pronoun wrong, I would just spend all my time being pissed the [ __ ] off.

[01:29:31]>> Yeah, I >> it's I don't know.

[01:29:38]>> And that is the narrative and I have definitely experienced being on the other side of that as a trans person of being like, [clears throat] I'm so sorry. [laughter] Oh my god, I didn't I know what you are and who you are and how you like to be called and I just [ __ ] up and I'm I do and I'm like it's fine.

[01:30:02]I It happens literally multiple times a day every single day that I leave my house. Sometimes it happens even online in the safety of my home. I can't tell you how much it doesn't phase me. can't can't emphasize that enough.

[01:30:19][snorts] >> Would love if you got it right. I know that you'll get it wrong.

[01:30:26]>> I I there's a a a person in the chat who said uh talking about gender abolitionism.

[01:30:35]What do you think about gender anarchy or gender abolitionism?

[01:30:41]>> I think it's cool in concept. Uh, I think lots of people like the structure of gender for themselves and that's fine. I think that some people [ __ ] don't and that's also fine. I I guess I don't come down one way or the other about it. For for me, I have like my concept of my own gender is so >> is so not binary or static that it >> I so >> kind of doesn't matter.

[01:31:17]>> Here's a hot take and I actually do know we have lots of viewers who who use neoponouns or things like that.

[01:31:27]If you use neoponouns like Zizer, I think what that tells me is that you are gender anarchist or gender abolitionist and you are underscoring the point of the futility of it all. If that's not the case, call in because I want to know why.

[01:31:44]>> Oh yeah, I [clears throat] use fay fair pronouns because I like fairies and I like thinking of myself as a fay creature and that just feels right. And does that like does that fit the narrative that I'm painting though that you are underscoring the futility of of of like an existing >> like that that that that that feels inherently gender anarchy or you know gender abolitiony is is that like well [ __ ] you and your gender [laughter] like >> yeah like we're not even >> like what are you >> pronouns don't exist anywhere within the perceived gender binary. They don't even fit near it really.

[01:32:29]>> Right. Right.

[01:32:29]>> It's kind of just a whole other thing of like Yeah, you can call yourself self fair. Does that even have to do with gender? Is that even related to Yeah, I guess I I see what you're saying and I I I tend to agree that I I I guess it kind of does.

[01:32:48]or even other neoponouns. Like I have friends who are autender and I think what they're saying is you're going to be interacting with my autism a whole lot sooner than [laughter] you're going to be interacting with my gender. So let's put that one forward.

[01:33:00]>> Like male, female, no autistic. Yeah.

[01:33:03][laughter] >> Yeah. Which feels inherently gender gender anarchist. That definitely feels uh you know gender abolitionist to me in a way.

[01:33:12]>> Yeah. Like the thing that you need to know about me isn't boy or girl. The thing that you need to know about me is that I am a fairy creature.

[01:33:19]>> Yeah.

[01:33:20]>> Uh and that's who you're dealing with.

[01:33:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:24][laughter] I I it it like like like that that I don't know. I feel like I I don't think I've had made that hot take publicly because I'm afraid that it's flattening some people's views or flattening people's identities. But at the same time, it does speak to me as an inherent commentary on the arbitrariness of gender and a you know, it's it's it's it's the queer part. It's the Q part of LGBTQ, right? You know, LB GT T A I. Those are all ways of being. Those are all onlogical things. Those are who I am. Q is political.

[01:34:10]queerness is is is is a movement, is a people, is a statement, you know. Um, and and and I I I feel like neopronouns when I come across it is a statement in that place. That is that is that is queerness in a big way for me. Oh my god, >> baby.

[01:34:32]>> So, my baby, >> the fact that no one has called in blows my mind. Um, >> maybe they just enjoy listening to us yap too much.

[01:34:41]>> Well, I So, I do have a call screener who who uses neo pronouns. Uh, let me let me pick on our call screener.

[01:34:50]>> Oh, no.

[01:34:52]>> Hey.

[01:34:53]>> Hey, hold on a second, Dan. Uh, let me pop you back in the queue. I'm going to steal Kina. So, Kina's not going to be able to uh uh screen you for a minute.

[01:35:00]Okay.

[01:35:02]>> Okay.

[01:35:02]>> Okay.

[01:35:05]Kina.

[01:35:07]I know. I know. K's like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing?" I don't care.

[01:35:12][laughter] I So, I'm I Yeah, super sleepd deprived.

[01:35:16]I'm not going to be able to do an after show today. Um, so I I'm I'm just all over the place. Um, [laughter] sir basically, like, Kina, run.

[01:35:29]I don't know. I don't think Ken's able to hop in. Kina, if you're able to hop in, come say hi.

[01:35:35]Um, yeah. I don't know. Is that true of everybody though? Like is that is that am I am I being too koi about this? Like is this just a thing that we can be more open and talking about? How it is a commentary on the weirdness of gender as is? Kina, what what's your take?

[01:35:56]>> Uh, we're still talking. Uh, sorry, I starting to screen someone for a moment there.

[01:36:03]I know a couple minutes.

[01:36:05]>> I stole your >> You interrupted.

[01:36:07]>> I apologize. You're doing your job helping and I sincerely [laughter] as a volunteer. Thank you. I So I'm I'm I I the uh the cis person uh have a hot take about uh neoponouns. Um, [clears throat and laughter] and the hot take I have is that if you're picking neoponouns, you're inherently commenting on the arbitrary stupidity of gender as a as as a whole.

[01:36:35]And while you are saying a thing about yourself that can help people, you know, maybe if you're autender, it's because you're saying, "Hey, you're you're going to be interacting with my autism way sooner than you're [laughter] going to be interacting with my gender." So, let me put that forward. um that uh it feels like neoponess are neoponess are inherently um gender anarchist or gender abolitionist in a way.

[01:37:03]>> Yes, I fully agree. That's that's why you see here >> um they're they're rare, but they've been in English, you know, since at least the 90s. And they it it's actually like a middle German word. Yeah, >> it I'm not sure if it's hundreds or over a thousand years old, but like it's a very old pronoun. Like it's not rocking the boat. Like it does what I need it to do. But when you put it next like you know you have like he him, she her here.

[01:37:36]Like if you didn't know it wasn't supposed to be there, you'd think it was blending in perfectly. [laughter] >> Okay.

[01:37:43]>> But Okay. But you still agree with the like the the statement being made though. No.

[01:37:48]>> Yes.

[01:37:49]>> Okay.

[01:37:49]>> Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. I'm agreeing with you. That's okay.

[01:37:52]>> The fact that I agree with you is why I use those pronouns.

[01:37:56]>> Got it. Got it.

[01:37:56]>> I want to be able to say I don't, you know, I would prefer gen not to be gendered.

[01:38:02]>> Yeah.

[01:38:02]>> But I also don't want to throw it in your face.

[01:38:05]>> I I I I I feel like I need someone with neoponouns to disagree with me on this because I'm getting way too much agreement here and I'm upset. [laughter] If you want if you want some push back >> push Jesus please something otherwise I'm going to walk away thinking I was right about a thing and we can't have that Rudy.

[01:38:24]>> Oh you and your self-loathing [laughter] >> Kina I'm going to I'm going to throw you back so that you can uh you can uh screen our person in the queue. Okay.

[01:38:34]>> Okay.

[01:38:35]>> Thank you for letting me pick on you.

[01:38:38]>> Yep.

[01:38:40]>> I have the best volunteers. Have I told Have I told you I have the best volunteers?

[01:38:45]>> You've told me you have the best volunteers, and I tend to agree, >> right? They're amazing. Anyway, go ahead.

[01:38:52]>> Uh, I, you know, I remember encountering neoponouns for the first time online and then kind of just being like, I don't know if I'm ever going to meet anybody who uses these cuz this seems a little it's a little silly. And you know, as I grew up, I kind of was like, well, it is silly, but so is so is she and he.

[01:39:14]Uh, if you actually break down what she and he are supposed to represent, it's just a set of arbitrary characteristics that may or may not apply to the person using the pronouns, which is true of neopronouns as well.

[01:39:33]They they're they all come with a set of characteristics that may or may not apply to the person using them.

[01:39:44]Uh and it kind of is just meant to highlight how arbitrary the he and she are to begin with.

[01:39:55]>> That that does make me laugh cuz like that does make me think of like the combative callers. We don't get very many combative callers anymore, but there were times that, you know, we would get callers who, by the way, Skept was the first show to ask people what their pronouns were. Just saying, you know. Uh, but um when when we'd put their pronouns, combative callers would be like, "Yeah, my pronouns are eat/shit."

[01:40:21]And and it's just like it's like, "You get it. You get it." [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:27]>> But they don't. But they do.

[01:40:29]>> This is what you need to know about me.

[01:40:30]And then it's [ __ ] you. That's what you need to know about me.

[01:40:33]>> YEAH. [laughter] >> Accidentally correct actually.

[01:40:41]>> Yeah. I [laughter] >> Okay. Okay.

[01:40:46]>> Yeah. Like the people that are making fun of pronouns are also kind of getting into the spirit of it by just putting in whatever [ __ ] word they they like, which is kind of the point. Yeah, I it's it's I don't know.

[01:41:05]It's okay. And if anybody watching doesn't get it and thinks that we're talking about people who don't know what's between their pants or or between their between their thighs or whatever.

[01:41:15]>> Yeah, [sighs] you were not ready for this.

[01:41:20][laughter] I I you know >> yeah it does feel fully like the conversation we're having would be so much talking past someone who doesn't get being trans on any level that it's kind of a different language and that can be fun but I also like when I am trying to talk to those people I try not to talk like I'm talking to somebody who understands gender the way that I understand it.

[01:41:56]>> I >> because I don't like talking past people.

[01:42:00]>> I I when I want to communicate, I actually want to communicate.

[01:42:04]>> But the thing is is you are and you're using the same language and people just refuse to accept it. I I I I feel like there are two people who who who create gender mood boards and that is aggressively heterosexual Republicans and trans folks and they're just like this is my gender football and it's like okay you are treating your gender as a collaboration with other people that you are contributing to and then also using it as a mood board to you it's hot wings and football with friends and being a misogynist and that is your gender, you know, [laughter] and you're all fighting over the one word because you don't know that there are other words in the English language and like trans folks are like saying going, "Hey, you know what? I'm also going to create gender as a mood board and mine is >> frog and toad, you know, [laughter] or whatever the case is.

[01:43:02]>> Mushrooms, goblin." Yeah. Whatever. You know, all that good stuff.

[01:43:06]>> Yeah.

[01:43:08]like it feels like it's the same things with the same language like >> but they're like no it's not it's different mine has to do with my penis somehow even though that wasn't part of the mood board.

[01:43:19]>> No no you never pulled that out at the Super Bowl party and if you did no [laughter] like I I don't I don't I I don't get it.

[01:43:33]It does feel more similar than different. It's just that one part doesn't want to admit that that's what they're doing.

[01:43:41]>> Yeah, it's we are all talking about the same thing, but when you add the bio essentialism in, you kind of have to act like that's not what you're talking about, even though in so many words that's exactly what you're talking about.

[01:43:57]>> Got it.

[01:43:59]But when you have to add in this this bio essentialist bend, you have to cover your tracks and be like, "It's not a social construct." I swear.

[01:44:08]>> Right. [laughter] Don't you know about the chromosomes, Rudy? The chromosomes.

[01:44:14]I I And and and by the way, poor went out for all the allies who decided they wanted to have the chromosome conversations.

[01:44:23]>> Yeah.

[01:44:23]>> Please stop. Please. Please, for the love of God, stop. This is not even know what your chromosomes are. [ __ ] off.

[01:44:30]>> This is a sociology thing. This is not a science thing. Quit trying to science the sociology on it. Like it's [snorts] Yeah. Anyway, uh let's talk to Dan in Alabama. Dan, >> uh this is Dan in Alabama.

[01:44:45]>> Ben. Dan, I am so sorry. I I absolutely misread that. Ben, >> you are live. How's it going?

[01:44:54]>> Uh going okay.

[01:44:55]>> Good. Okay. you wanted to talk about neo pronouns.

[01:44:59]>> Yeah, I because um you know watching this sort of ecosystem [snorts] of shows, you know, I've seen people, you know, some people express some distaste at straight up gender abolition, >> but it occurs, you know, it's occurred to me that there's a gender priority that varies across the entire band of people. like it's gender is really important to some people and completely unimportant to others.

[01:45:30]>> Mhm.

[01:45:30]>> In addition to having, you know, different interpretations of it. And yet we have this culture that imposes this massive priority on all of us >> to sort ourselves into these different boxes. So then we're all jumping through all these hoops to constantly be I guess you know fulfilling that. And it's kind of funny because like a friend of mine pointed out to me that like in in Chinese like every pronoun is it um like there isn't but but he said it's it's it's funny. It's it's ironic because the culture is rather he said the culture is rather chauvinistic despite the fact that the language is completely neutral. Hm.

[01:46:19]>> And yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. And like, you know, year years ago, I was working on a working on a sci-fi story about people who were sort of post singularity.

[01:46:31]>> Mhm.

[01:46:32]>> And, you know, gender was something they could take off and on and as easily as putting on a hat. And >> uh >> I was looking for [laughter] Yeah, I was looking for how did I want to write this?

[01:46:47]And I chose the I chose the letter E as a singular pronoun that pretty much everybody could use.

[01:46:56]>> I >> and yeah, >> I so >> it didn't make sense. It didn't make sense for gender to even really be a fundamental concept like it is for us. I [snorts] I when when you talk about gender being something that you could so simply change, I I feel like a lot of people who are deep into the bio essentialist, you know, kind of piece of it are experiencing some kind of sunk cost fallacy, you know, and I think that that prevents them. like I when I talk to people who are very anti- changing pronouns or whatever, it's usually, oh, hey, I've gone through all this work to make myself into this gender. I have taken on eating disorders, you know, or I have, you know, um, uh, uh, you know, physically or medically done things to make my body more like the gender that I think it needs to be. or um you know, [snorts] I'm a dude and dudes are [ __ ] awful conversationalists most of the time, but I make myself only talk to other guys cuz I'm a guy's guy, you know, and like it it it all feels like like they're worried that we're going to invalidate the labor that they did to try to fit in.

[01:48:19]>> And so, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've thought about Yeah, I wonder about that too because it does seem like they're really defensive over >> and the thing is the people who are invalidating other people's gender presentation are the people who are most invested in uh fitting into gender roles because otherwise there wouldn't be a you're not doing it right >> mentality to to live up to.

[01:48:47]>> Yeah.

[01:48:48]They have a box that they have to fit into. And if other people aren't constantly criticizing each other's version of of [snorts] doing gender, right, then it wouldn't be something that people were invested in >> I doing >> which which No, no. I I I you're saying things that are legitimate and amazing.

[01:49:12]I'm trying to jump in and be like, "So, if your pronouns are [ __ ] off, at least act like it.

[01:49:17]>> [laughter] >> kind of go around. You got to greet people.

[01:49:20]>> [ __ ] off.

[01:49:22]>> Yeah. I [laughter] >> Well, you know, if you really don't like people, hey, >> then at least at least you're finding ways to communicate that and saying you're going to interact with that sooner than you will [laughter] other things. Uh >> yeah, >> that is a primary lens through which I would need you to view me.

[01:49:43]Yeah, there there was also like a thought experiment that occurred to me like um and I I've posed this I posed this question a few times to people and it's like and it's is like do you have a characteristic that's more important to you than gender such that it would make sense that you'd have a pronoun based on that characteristic instead of gender?

[01:50:06]So I I I feel like [sighs and gasps] so honestly that kind of touches on maybe the hot part of the hot take that that that I have there and that is that gender when we think about binary gender those are terms that people are familiar with or at least familiar with enough to go oh these are the social norms I'm supposed to impose on you through that gender, right? And so I feel like when people do use neoponouns, they want to communicate, hey, these are the things to interact with. But I think that the general effect for all of the people who don't get it is you just made this confusing for me, which is a statement. And the statement is gender's stupid. [laughter] And I and and and and I feel like taking that next step of okay, well, what would a gender be that is outside of that binary, I does feel like it's either the binary or [ __ ] off with your genders, you know, but I don't I don't necessarily know how useful it is to actually create them as those are kind of social shortorthhands, aren't they?

[01:51:31]Like that's kind of the the that's kind of the hot take there is just like you're making a statement and this is what the statement is. The statement is [ __ ] off. You know that that there's there's there's more to the world than than than this. Um [snorts] I don't know.

[01:51:50]>> Yeah. I you know it's and I I I think what it I think my my great preference for society would be you know get to know me without bringing your baggage and society's telling us to have a whole bunch of baggage about this binary characteristic because you know back back in the day I guess as soon as somebody became a boss they started worrying about what the birth rate was in their town or something. I don't know.

[01:52:25]>> I I Yeah, >> that's all alleged [laughter] >> allegedly somebody started to care about all of these things >> uh at some point.

[01:52:38]>> Okay, >> no. If if if you're flexing the societal power to start worrying about birth rates, that's eugenics. Stop it. [ __ ] stop it. Stop it, please. Go stop.

[01:52:51]>> Yeah, I get Well, >> I guess I'm going to HP. Stop.

[01:52:56]>> Yeah. Well, I think society acts like that was the priority.

[01:53:02]>> Like, oh my god, we have to order society by male and female so that we can guarantee a stable or growing population. And I mean, that's what the society as a whole seems to act like from what I can tell. And it does seem pretty dumb [snorts] to me. I it's it's all patriarchy, man. You dig deep enough, you scratch that, right underneath, it's patriarchy.

[01:53:26]>> The genders could have just been men and not men and it would still have turned out the way that it is now.

[01:53:34]I feel like >> Okay. So, I I I know I'm not going to be able to go [laughter] into the after show today, but I'm absolutely going to post a an image um in the in the Discord. Um and I'd love to see later how people interact with it. Um Oh, god.

[01:53:53]Okay. No, this is good. This is good. Uh remember this conversation enough so Ben, you can check the Discord after and see what I post. It's >> all right.

[01:54:01]>> Dear God. All right. Um, I think we're gonna wrap up though. Thank you for calling, Ben.

[01:54:06]>> Yeah, >> take care.

[01:54:10]All right, Rudy. Um, so I need to need to need to just talk about and gush for a minute about how amazing my volunteers are. I don't know if I've said it before, but my volunteers are incredible. Um, I'm so grateful. Um, you know, Ascalon is usually uh is in the chat, but is also the one who usually runs our after show. And I I said, "I'm I'm too tired. I'm not going to be able to do an after show." And he was like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Man, fuck." Like, I just y'all are so awesome. I'm so grateful. Um h love it. All right, I need to read some super chats. Uh Sean loves maths sent two this time. sent 5 lbs and said uh almost all real numbers are irrational. That is rational numbers form a subset of the real numbers of leiscu measured zero. I have no idea what that means. I apologize that has confused me thoroughly. Uh usually you give me uh something to latch on to to get upset about. Um I just I I got nothing. Sorry, my friend. Uh Sean loves math.

[01:55:17]>> These all go right over my head. though.

[01:55:19]>> Yeah. Sent two pounds in the same boat >> and says, "Mental health issues can mean a lack of men's rhea."

[01:55:27]>> I feel like that's a legal joke that went over my head.

[01:55:32]>> I This could be a joke in in the movie Legally Blonde, I feel like.

[01:55:39]>> Yeah.

[01:55:41]I I I Okay. My Unfinished Journey uh sent two bucks and said, "Hail Eric and Rudy, and hail rising above trauma."

[01:55:48][ __ ] yes. Little fist. Uh, my unfinished sock. [laughter] You're the same person. My unfinished journey sent $2 and says, "Don't other yourself. Like and share instead."

[01:55:59]That's right. Hit the like button, share. Become a patron.

[01:56:02]patreon.com/skeepic generation. It's a small community. People have lives and so they drop off. Uh, the show's not making very much. I'm just trying to keep the show going. If you want to support, you want to see this community have amazing conversations, patreon.com/skeepic generation. That's what it goes into and um it goes right back into doing the show. This is for fun. We're having we're we're we're happy to be here and we'd love to continue. So, that helps us continue. Um if Patreon did not exist, I would still fund this show out of pocket, but there might be a time when I wouldn't be able to afford it. So, this just makes sure that I can. Uh Sean Loves Math sent two more uh super chats. says sent 5 lbs and says, "Are they sets of characteristics?" To be sets, they need to be reduced to binary predicates.

[01:56:49]Maybe they're fuzzy sets. Um, talk about the characteristics of gender.

[01:56:54]>> Um, definitely fuzzy sets.

[01:56:58]>> Fuzzy sets. Sure. I I believe that you know what you're talking about, Sean.

[01:57:03]Sean Sean Sean has got an advanced degree in math and is working I believe on a PhD and I think last week announced that um that his thesis found out that his thesis was already done in a paper from like the '9s.

[01:57:22]>> Oh no.

[01:57:23]>> I know. I I I know Sean sent two pounds and says regarding my last thing, see the comprehension principle.

[01:57:33]>> I wish I had more context. I'm sorry, my friend. All right, >> I might actually Google this later.

[01:57:38]Maybe actually.

[01:57:39]>> Yeah, Rudy, how can people find you?

[01:57:43]>> Uh, you can find me on I post the most on Tumblr, Excultaby. That's my main social media platform. Would I like to be making content again? Yes, but it's probably going to be different from what I was making before. I I've actually thought about doing sort of a podcast thing because I think part of the struggle for me in making content was having to worry about what I'm saying and what I look like while I'm saying it. And if I can eliminate one of those factors, it might be easier.

[01:58:16]>> We'll see.

[01:58:17]>> Hey, I you know, if you did want to make stuff, you you know, an editor.

[01:58:22]>> I do know an editor. an editor who is eager to help.

[01:58:25]>> I have floated that before people. I'm just saying. Anyway, um if y'all want to find me, you can find me right here on Skeptic Generation. If you want to find other things about me, don't.

[01:58:40][laughter] This is where you're going to find it. I and and I I sincerely appreciate it, but like um you know, somebody got arrested for having a box full of Z in Texas. Like I'm limiting my exposure. We're going to do our best. We're going to have the conversations we're going to have. And also, this is what I can do right now. So, I'm just glad you're here to be a part of the conversation. That said, um I think it's time we wrapped up. So, Rudy, do you remember how to finish the show?

[01:59:18]>> Uh, I'm I'm I'm glad we talked.

[01:59:21]>> Glad we had this talk. Okay.

[01:59:22]>> I'm glad we had this talk. Yeah.

[01:59:24]>> So, until next time, I'm Eric Murphy >> and I'm Rudy B. And I'm glad Generation.

[01:59:30]We're glad. [laughter] >> There we go. That's good.

[01:59:34][music] [music]