Why Trump must use ‘Incrementalism’ with China: Theologian

追加: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]Stay on President Trump's trip to China.

[00:00:02]The president's facing pressure from religious groups to confront Xi Jinping about China's treatment of Christians and wagers. Jonathan Morris joins us now. How would you advise the president to talk to Xi about the persecution of Christians?

[00:00:15]>> Don't be pressured by anyone. Don't be pressured by these religious groups. Of course, I'm all in favor of human rights, religious rights, and the protection of religious minorities, but I think Trump understands you try to get everything, you walk away with nothing.

[00:00:29]um most important thing is to help that relationship get to a place that is between the US and China that we're not we're not moving in the direction of World War III.

[00:00:40]>> Okay.

[00:00:40]>> Right. And China right now is playing a massive role on the on on the world stage. um and dealing with Iran uh dealing with Russia and Trump I think understands yes of course in a perfect world we would like to discuss everything that we disagree on but he also knows that you have to focus on what is essential what's most important >> if we get some progress with Jimmy lie and Christians they will want something from us are we prepared to pay a price for less persecution >> there's a great principle in ethics called incrementalism. Um, a lot a lot of people think that it's you have to go for everything all at once and you can't give up anything. That just doesn't work in the real world. Incrementalism means you can move towards an ultimate goal in incremental phases and you have to do that when you're talking about negotiation and that's there's nothing unethical about that.

[00:01:36]>> Pope Leo claims the Catholic Church supports true and solid science. Hold on a second, Jonathan. I thought that science and religion has a kind of rivalry. How does the pope bring together faith and reason?

[00:01:50]>> That's an awesome question. Um it's interesting when he says true science, honest science, uh he's recognizing that's just as faith can be manipulated.

[00:01:58]We see that all the time and be used for your own selfish p purposes. We think of some of the radical ayatollas right now, what they're doing to their own people.

[00:02:07]Science can also be manipulated. And you can take science and you can say I'm going to use it for my own good or I'm going to use pseudocience and I'm going to say that this is true. And really the pope went on to explain we need both science and we need faith to help us find the truth >> and the truth is what is objective and but our intellects are weak. Some people are stronger than others. You have a very strong one. And I would say >> don't no compliments are required to be on this program. And >> so so we we we have to use both in pursuit of truth. Faith and reason.

[00:02:40]Reason doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't get us everywhere, but it is helped along by faith. John Paul II used to talk about two wings of the bird being faith and reason. And you need both.

[00:02:51]>> Is there a particular element of science, a particular area of scientific discovery and progress that the Pope does not like? Listen, if it's in the pursuit of truth and it's respecting the dignity of every human being, that is good. Respectful of the dignity of the human person, not trying to play God uh and say we're going to use people um as as guinea pigs um for something that we're trying to pursue, whatever that happens to be.

[00:03:19]>> Does the pope believe that climate science is true science? Listen, um there's all sorts of things that are done in the name of clim uh climate science that are not necessarily science. What he's saying is you can't you ideology cannot drive the pursuit of truth. It has to be faith and reason working together in pursuit of it.

[00:03:38]>> Marco Rubio was with the Pope in recent times, spent some time in the two-hour discussion with him. Did they resolve their differences? Did they come together on anything?

[00:03:46]>> I'm sure they talked very in a very straightforward way. Um, in the end, um, Secretary Rub Rubio is is there representing President Trump in the United States of America. Um, and he but he knows how to talk with the Pope. He is a man of of of great knowledge when it comes to his own faith.

[00:04:04]>> Well, has Rubio restored some degree of congeniality? Yeah, I think as long as the pope is always talking about, hey, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. Don't they were showing it um in in action, the pope and Marco Rubio. And I think that already opens up things, right? As soon as you have you've opened up a conversation and instead of just thinking and saying that the other person might be like this, >> you realize we've gone through three and a half minutes and we simply have not mentioned even once Henry VII.

[00:04:32]Extraordinary, isn't it?

[00:04:34]>> You can bring it up now if you like.

[00:04:36]>> We just did. We got 30 seconds left.

[00:04:38]>> We just did.

[00:04:40]>> You love You love Henry VIII.

[00:04:42]>> I wouldn't say I love him. He was a monster, but he changed England forever >> for the good.

[00:04:47]>> I think so, but that's another story.

[00:04:51]>> Fair enough.

[00:04:51]>> Jonathan, you're all right. Thanks very much. All right.