Peter Murrell's SNP spending spree & could the Reform-Restore feud hand Burnham Makerfield?

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]This is mafia style. Take the hit big Pete. Is there something about nationalist parties problem in Scottish politics has been the desire to blame all Scotland's problems on others particularly but not exclusively the English.

[00:00:19]Hello and welcome to the spectators podcast quite right with me Michael Gove editor of the spectator. And this week, Maline Grant and I will be discussing Peter Merurl, Nicholas Sturgeon, and the SNP great embezzlement scandal. The married couple who were at the heart of Scottish politics, and who it now appears, were benefiting from thousands of pounds being diverted to uh all sorts of ludicrous purchases. Mandy and I will be examining what this tells us about politics. will also be looking at reform and restore and their battle for the right in the Makerfield bi-election.

[00:00:56]What does that tell us about the ability of all the forces of the United Kingdom to gather against the Sauron that is Stormer? And we'll be discussing wellness. How boring is it?

[00:01:12]befer, new cars, watches, and a salt and pepper shaker set that cost more than25,000.

[00:01:21]These are just a few of the items which Peter Moral uh has bought with embezzled funds from SMP donors. He's yet to face sentencing, but he came out and admitted guilt, which I think came as a surprise to many people, but it's meant that we now have this unbelievable deluge of crazy items that moral has been buying.

[00:01:41]Firstly, what what are your thoughts on I guess that particular state of affairs, but also the broader question which I think is the elephant in the room here, which is how is it possible that Nicholas Sturgeon could have been completely unaware of any of this?

[00:01:55]>> You're absolutely right. Most embezzlement stories uh involve spectacularly flashy purchases and a ci lifestyle um which is a bit like sort of uh Leonardo DiCaprio um in come >> catch me if you can.

[00:02:13]>> Exactly.

[00:02:15]Uh this this story uh has an almost tragic comic feel to it. You here you have the chief executive of the SNP, married to the leader of the SNP. They were in charge of the party for more than a decade. They were the uh quintessential stars of Scottish politics. And all the time that they were married and Nicholas Sturgeon was leader of the SNP and first minister of Scotland and her husband, now estranged, was chief executive. He was using the company credit card and using as you say SNP finances to go on a sustained spending spree um which is more teu uh than Harrods uh though there were one or two conspicuously as you point out ostentatious items like the 2,000 salt and pepper shakers.

[00:03:15]>> I didn't even know it was possible to spend that much on salt and pepper shakers. No, >> I'm learning a lot about the um consumption habits of the um mega rich andor super corrupt.

[00:03:25]>> Well, this is the curious thing there.

[00:03:27]There is that inongruity about it all in that there are certain things which are to be fair ostentatious and luxury purchases including I think a Jaguar as well.

[00:03:38]>> Yeah.

[00:03:38]>> Uh but there are also uh purchases which are quite ben. very first set of purchases uh which were uh embezzled money were I think laundry baskets. Um and he went on at different times uh to buy things which suggest some good taste though um you know of a of a questionable kind. So his book buying including Hannah Arent and Walter Scott great but the fact that he was buying Folio society editions of >> also you can get those secondhand on eBay. I got a Folio Society edition of a trollup book just a couple of days ago and I think it cost me £4. Yeah. You know.

[00:04:15]>> Oh well. And again, one of the curious things is and this goes to the heart of it. How much if anything did Nicholas Sturgeon know? Because some of the purchases were jewelry of a kind that unless Peter Moral was leading an incredibly exotic private life, one would have presumed were for Nicholas Sturgeon. It's also the case that as is well known Nicholas Sturgeon is a great biblophile and indeed you know genuinely uh uh quite a sort of uh thoughtful literary uh person. She I imagine would have noticed uh when library ladders were purchased and one would have assumed that the the sort of voracious reader that is Nicholas Sturgeon would have noticed if further editions has sort of turned up were these gifts. Was it the case that she assumed that this all came from Peter Marl's salary? And of course, the most inongruous thing of all is the motor home that was purchased as well as the Jaguar. Yes.

[00:05:08]>> Uh one would have thought that uh notwithstanding the fact that Nicholas Sturgeon herself until recently couldn't drive, >> uh she might have noticed if her husband was expanding the fleet of family vehicles so that he was resembling more a uh an Uber firm than a than a loving husband. And at the time they're living together in a you know a fairly modest home on the outskirts of Glasgow like by no means a mansion. You would think that you would be aware of new items entering your home. And particularly it would be very irregular even for a couple where you know one half of the couple can't drive not to discuss these kinds of purchases or to even wonder where where the money might have come from. I mean, you know, if my husband just turned up with a brand new spanking Jaguar without consulting me, you would have one would have something to say about that.

[00:06:01]>> Yes, quite. uh and and it seems to me that again Nicholas Sturgeon's case is that uh uh she was very busy undoubtedly so uh as was her husband that they w with their respective political responsibilities one obviously running the Scottish government another running the principal party one might raise questions about the uh propriety of that in any case even if there wasn't embezzlement involved but she argues that they had separate bank accounts that they were both you know in broad terms relatively wellpaid So if there was the occasional luxury purchase >> occasional >> then how could she be expected to know it? So it's possible we have to uh allow that uh she was all unawares but it does require a sort of certain conviction that they were leading uh even before the estrangement uh lives less intimately entwined than most married couples indeed than most flat sharers.

[00:07:05]>> Yes.

[00:07:06]I just call me cynical, but I just really find it, you know, impossible to believe that someone could bring home a motor home and a new Jaguar and not notice and not ask any questions at all about that. I just find that impossible to believe.

[00:07:20]>> Yes. And I think >> and they're obviously paid a lot as high ranking politicians, but they're not paid the kind of money where £80,000 leaving someone's account is just trivial and no big deal at all.

[00:07:32]>> No. Quite. And the curious thing here of course as well is that the money that was spent by Peter Merurl was not taxpayers money but it was money that came from SNP members. Uh he presided over uh a significant increase in SNP membership. Many of these people will be hardworking and idealistic even though I may disagree with them. Uh >> who gave their money in good faith to a cause that they believe in. Yeah. And actually a specific fund was created by the SNP to campaign for independence separate from the the the party's work a day fund. So this is in a way was a fund that was set up to capture the most idealistic people those who would say look I don't have any interest in party politics but I do believe in the dream of an independent Scotland. So uh their dream uh was turned into a cash point uh for Peter Marl and they I'm sure have a right to feel betrayed. Similarly, it was the case that we know captured on film that there were a number of people in the SNP uh uh sort of committee structure who raised questions about the party's finances and were given very short shrift by Nicholas Sturgeon. It's there recorded. She's she brooks no disscent when it comes to questions about the financing. Now, again, being fair-minded, let us assume that she knew nothing. Let us assume that she was simply uh trying to put to one side what she thought were vexacious questions from people who were not her political allies within the SNP. Okay, that still requires from her as the person who allowed this to go on on her watch. Um the person who uh battered away the questions, the person who presided over the state of affairs whereby Peter Moral was allowed to do this. This requires from her, I think, a greater level of contrition, acknowledgement, yes, and desire to have questions answered. And she says that she's now a private citizen. Again, one has to respect the fact that she chose voluntarily to leave politics. But nevertheless, there is a responsibility, I think, on her shoulders and on others within the SNP to show how it is that they're going to restore faith in their political structures, their way of operating.

[00:09:50]Because this trial of Peter Moral was due to take place before the Scottish parliamentary elections. It was delayed.

[00:09:59]Now that it's taken place after them, we have a situation where for the next four years in Scotland, you have an SNP government with a first minister John Swinny uh who was uh intimately involved with the leadership when all this happened. So I am fascinated of course by the personal but the political matters too and you have a government of part of the United Kingdom where uh you can't at the moment take anything on trust about how they handle their own affairs and therefore how they handle the governance of Scotland itself. But the personal is in this case particularly political because you have a a married couple controlling the largest political party in Scotland and holding enormous sway over it >> and it appears to me using their influence sometimes to dampen questions from people within and without their party. So in that case it's you know it's it's highly significant. I also just think it has worked out in some ways rather conveniently for the SMP. As you said, the timing of it is fortuitous because this has come after the local elections and I'm sure there would have been some punishment because this is precisely the kind of story with scandalous elements and particularly that feeling that there's one rule for us another for them which is so potent in Britain in particular that could have inflicted real damage and now will not have the opportunity to do that. And also in pleading guilty, am I right in thinking that this now mitigates the extent of the trial, you know, it's not going to be witnesses, cross-examinations, and other things that would prove embarrassing. So you essentially you have Peter Moral taking all the rap for this. And while his former colleagues say, "Oh, we didn't know it's nothing to do with us." But essentially, >> the personal is now allowed to trump the political because you can just say, "Oh, well, it's sorry, we had nothing to do with that. It's all Peter. It's all on him."

[00:11:53]>> Precisely. So the timing um of the trial and the guilty plea are very convenient for others in the SNP exactly as you say it meant that the uh confirmation that criminality occurred came after the Scottish parliamentary election and it also means that there's no one in the witness box. So no uncomfortable questions for anyone else involved in the SNP's finances all done and dusted.

[00:12:18]Uh uh you know again this is you know don't want to sort of build the lily too much but this is mafia style um you know uh take the hit big Pete uh serve your time be quiet and make sure that nobody else in the family in the broadest sense goes down with you. So you know it is incredibly convenient for >> I know it was you Joanna Cherry.

[00:12:43]Well, the the the thing is that Joanna Cherry, >> by the way, I'm not trying to say that Joanna Cherry is in any way complicit.

[00:12:50]She's the kind of person who's trying to raise the alarm here.

[00:12:52]>> This is the interesting thing.

[00:12:53]>> She repeatedly attempted to whistleblow.

[00:12:56]>> Joanna Cherry. Um, I'm sure listeners will know Joanna because she's appeared on spectator podcasts before. She was the uh SNPMP um until the 2024 election uh for Edinburgh Southwest, a very distinguished barristister KC. Uh Joanna Cherry was someone who was very critical of Nicholas Durjan's leadership and she blew the whistle or rather raised concerns about the SNP's finances.

[00:13:21]>> She was at the meeting that was caught on film where Nicholas Sturgeon uh was so dismissive of the questioning of the SNP's internal mechanisms. uh Joanna's written a a book recently which again is very critical of Nicholas Turon and Joanna's case is that both the handling of the Peter Maral affair but before that the handling of a prosecution of Alex Sammon >> yes >> reflected dirty dealing at the at the crossroads as far as the SNP were concerned now again I don't want to sort of relitigate the whole Alex Sammon case uh he is dead and blessings on his memory uh But uh one thing that was clear is that uh there was an almost vindictive desire on some people to see Alex Sammon crushed. Alex Sammon clearly misbehaved um towards some women in a in a way that he acknowledged was inappropriate. But he didn't commit any crimes and he was acquitted in court after all the evidence had been heard of any criminality.

[00:14:30]And for Joanna Cherry and others, there's a thread here. And the thread is an imperious desire on the part of the cabal that's been running the SNP with of course Nicholas Sturgeon at its heart um to run the party essentially in almost Leninist fashion. No one is allowed to disagree. No questioning of the leadership's strategy either on independence, finances, identity politics or anything else. And it does raise at least two questions in my mind which are broader. One is is there something about nationalist parties? Is there something about the nature of these movements that encourages cultish behavior or uh personality worship or you know what one might call the viewer principle? And secondly related to that is there a problem overall with political movements that are built around personalities?

[00:15:35]Because again to be fair, Salammon himself is a huge personality who uh was also while I think arguably a more talented politician than Sturgeon. He was also someone uh who was intolerant of uh disscent and who you know ruled in a sort of Caesarist or bonapartist way.

[00:15:57]Does that mean that there is in the DNA of those types of parties uh a tendency to ensure that even though they rail against the undemocratic thwarting of their ambitions, they're intrinsically in their structures less than democratic, less than committed to the the sort of broad liberal principles that you'd want to see in any political organization. One thing that's interesting to me is the fact that the S&P I mean I think all politics is suffering from a drought of talent.

[00:16:29]Decent people not wanting to go in but the S&P seems to have a particular problem with keeping its most capable people on board. Yes, >> we've talked about Joanna Cherry incredibly impressive politician whether or not you agree with her views on nationalism and also someone who's brave and has a moral compass and is willing to go on a limb for what she believes in. These are qualities that we should value. She resigned I think after essentially trying to raise the alarm and being repeatedly rebuffed >> and also she was very brave on the gender question.

[00:16:57]>> Yeah, exactly. And being treated being no one likes being uh treated like the proverbial in their own party a movement in which they they believe very strongly. Kate Forbes is no longer participating in nationalist politics.

[00:17:10]This maybe has more. Yes, sorry. The former finance minister deeply impressive, achieved a lot. Very young in her 20ies. She was head and shoulders above most politicians nationalist >> vilified because because she had Christian beliefs >> completely. So I I think there is a there is a a particular difficulty with encompassing like genuinely being a broad church. And I think maybe that does relate to some of what you're saying about a cult-like element. You have to kiss the ring and subscribe to every single one of these beliefs or you know you're out you're out on your ear kind of thing. But the other thing that's interesting is the fact that in spite of all of this difficulty, the fact that now in the absence of Salmon, who was followed immediately by Sturgeon, another big personality who kind of fills that void, there's not an obvious big personality heading the S&P now. John Swinny is not the most exciting politician. And yet, they still are doing extremely well in the polls.

[00:18:01]And I mean, it's very lucky for them that this didn't come out before the elections, but they did extremely well in their Scottish Parliament elections.

[00:18:07]There is a darth of talent now in the SNP. Um that is striking. Uh you're right, John Swinny is a perfectly capable uh politician overall, but when he was first minister and the S&P were in opposition, they were flatlining. Um at the last election, uh the S&P managed to remain the single largest party, but that was partly because uh the uh pro-UN forces were fractured. the reform surge had an impact in Scotland splitting the the unionist vote. Of course, reform supporters would say that the other parties split the unionist vote, but anyway, what that meant is that the S&P were able to maintain uh a plurality in the parliament without actually gaining votes compared to last time, but they lost votes compared to last time. Uh and it's that fractured political landscape that has allowed the SNP to uh continue to dominate. But looking at the people who are >> and also the contempt for the national government, you know that nationalist parties always do well when the um United Kingdom government is performing badly in Westminster.

[00:19:09]>> Precisely there, you know, in in the ugly contest between the Westminster government and the S&P government in Hollywood. Uh the SNP government in Hollywood was seen as slightly less toxic uh by a sufficient number of Scottish voters. So Scottish politics is is has thrown up some curious characters. Even though there may be a darth of talent, there is no darth of interest. No.

[00:19:29]>> In the in the >> and there is some talent.

[00:19:30]>> Well, no. No. Well, I I was going to say curiosity.

[00:19:33]>> Steven Flynn.

[00:19:33]>> Well, Steven Flynn the Steven Flynn and Steven Gthins, two MPs who stood down in order to go into the Scottish Parliament. They are very talented figures. But uh I was also struck by the fact that the Greens did quite well in the Scottish parliamentary election. Uh the candidates however they've returned are a variegated galler. Um uh there is one uh chap who was elected um on the list as an SNP MSP uh who is um from a I think a Tamil background who said that his his uh his forebears were cortisans prostitutes farmers and so on. Uh it turns out that this individual is someone who's on a student visa who was educated at a private school in India uh who is some sort of beat poet um and who insists that he is um uh non-binary you know great for him um but who has also >> I'm pleased that you didn't do the they them thing they it >> it's just too grammatically wrong >> precisely but he's also saying that the Scottish people should pay reparations to Palestine because uh Scotland was responsible for uh the Balfur declaration somehow. I I I and the logic of it eludes me. It's also the case that there's another green MSP who is also um you know somewhere on the gender spectrum that is neither male nor female. I don't know. I think they're trans, whatever. Who is also a sort of student agitator from uh Glasgow University. Uh not someone who again, you know, please forgive me for being commodly. not someone who seems to me to be uh authentically representative of the Scottish working class in the way that you might have recognized a uh a Jimmy Reed or an Alex Ferguson in the past to have been. Um so, you know, the the the the Green Party in Scotland seems to make the Green Party in England look like the WI. Um uh and and that again I think is a manifestation of not dysfunctionality but just obviously something uh in in Scottish politics which has gone wrong. What is it? I think it's the case that the problem in Scottish politics has been the desire to blame all Scotland's problems on others particularly but not exclusively the English or Westminster. And part of the SNP's principal charge was that Westminster was somehow a sink of corruption in contrast to uh the pristine Jerusalem style hopes pinned on uh Hollywood >> that now clearly is no longer sustainable.

[00:22:18]>> I remember during COVID there was a particular kind of like a revivalist preacher element to some of the SMP members of parliament particularly Pete Wishart. Oh yes. who would use words like miden and you know very dramatic you know there was there was an awful lot to criticize during lockdown and party gate but you're right it came from a a sort of sense of absolute moral probit seem to be the the order of the day and actually the level of corruption that has been exposed by the moral business is actually it's kind of orders of magnitudes more corrupt than we are used to in UK politics you know it it makes the karmama taking his grubby presence from Lord Alley look like very small beer in comparison. You know, Britain is actually in the in comparatively very uncorrupt. I mean, I think we forget this because we do have rightly have high standards.

[00:23:05]>> You're absolutely right. Without wanting to engage too much in in stereotyping, um it is the case that Pete Ward and for that matter Steven Finn sometimes seem to be parliament's John Nooxes denouncing the corruption >> and they're very good at it.

[00:23:17]>> They they are very good at it. But it's also the case um as you know that there's a brilliant poem by uh Robert Burns. It's always Robert Burns uh Holy Willy's prayer in which you you have Holy Willie who's the Kirk Elder um and the upholder of morality in the course of the poem revealing himself to be just as uh lustful, hypocritical, vindictive, vicious uh and wicked as any of the people he's denouncing. And there's a phrase uh or um in Scots the ankco good uh which means those who are anxiously overthe-top moralistic and I think the thing is that it may well have been the case that the SNP thought that they were the uncoo uh but now they are exposed as being just as mired in the miden as anyone else.

[00:24:07]Political attention of course has been focused on Makerfield uh the French bi-election where Andy Bernham is hoping uh to replace Josh Simons, the Labour MP who stood down and Andy Bernham hopes that that will be the uh trampoline that vaults him to the premiership. uh and his chances are slightly easier many people believe because the principal challenges of course Nigel Faraj's reform party which did so well in the local elections there are facing themselves a threat to the right because Restore Britain the party set up by Rupert Lo himself once a reform MP >> uh is running um and polling and constituency polling is notoriously difficult to do but polling suggests that at the moment Labor on 43, Reformer on 40 and Restore are on 7%.

[00:25:00]So it would seem as though Rupert Low's intervention will allow Andy Burnham to win as things stand. So Maddie, what do you think this tells us about politics now and also about the tussle on the right? Uh we were used to thinking about conservative and reform maneuverings.

[00:25:20]now restore as something more well more more what to the picture. It's interesting because we've known for a while that we're in increasingly in an era of multi-party politics and that the old loyalties have dissipated. But the assumption was that other parties would kind of swoop in to replace Labour or replace the Tories. But it seems to be more complicated like that. You have than that you have all kinds of splintering on both the left and the right. And the challenge from Restore Britain to Nigel Faraj's party is particularly interesting because it arose in the first place from a personal feud within Reform UK. Rupert Low was sacked and there were conflicting uh accounts given as to why this was.

[00:26:02]Initially reform UK alleged that uh Rupert Lo had intimidated members of the party. He I think intimidated somebody over the phone. There were attempts to involve the police in this. The investigation of that didn't go anywhere. But by all accounts was quite a harrowing experience for Rbert Loise has police questioning. He has he has a a shotgun collection. He has that taken away from his house and this kind of business and then goes on to form his own party. But after that happened, Reform UK then pivot to saying that actually the reason they want rid of Rupert Low is that his position on certain issues is to the right of where they're comfortable, including mass deportations. So this is this is kind of interesting because I think it suggests that there's an issue with personnel on the right in the sense of brand new parties uh lots of egos and when you have big personalities like Farage Rutert Low and others it's it's hard to to reconcile that but it just shows that the the risks inherent to the right where you have on the face of it what looks like an extraordinary opportunity to capitalize from the realignment of politics something that the two main parties have completely squandered. the goal is is wide open, but here they are fighting amongst themselves.

[00:27:13]>> Could you uh explain either to me or would you be able to explain to any third party what the differences between reform's political platform and restore's political platform?

[00:27:25]>> Well, it's it's hard to say because some of the antipathy seems to come that res reform have for restore particular things that RERT low has said.

[00:27:33]>> He's definitely going further than they they are going on social media. He has an exceptionally high social media following which I think partly explains the poll that took a lot of people by surprise over the weekend. Rert Low has 1.3 million followers on Facebook.

[00:27:49]>> And he's also being regularly amplified by Elon Musk on X because Musk believes that he's the future of the right in Britain, not Farage.

[00:27:56]>> And because it's coming through social media, >> it allows him to basically send his message directly. It's not being mediated through BBC interviewers and whatnot. So there there's that element which I think is >> journalists often neglect Facebook because it's not the the the um social media platform that they spend all their time on. They're more likely to be found on X. Yes.

[00:28:17]>> So I guess in that respect to the right, but it's interesting. I do think that there's some evidence. It may just be a coincidence, but after chucking out RERT low supposedly for having had a too radical policy on mass deportations, reform then announces a policy on mass deportations that seems to be rather closer to what Rert Low was saying. So you could argue that restore Britain is is actually sort of pushing reform a bit to the right in its politics. I'm sure reform would say we that was always our plan, but I think you could make that argument. I also think RERT low is doing something very useful in the sense of embarrassing the government on the grooming gangs because they that they've been dragging their feet on the inquiry.

[00:28:56]Many survivors uh fear that it's going to be a kind of whitewash and the terms of reference are all wrong. So Rbert Low has just gone ahead and organized his own inquiry which he's going to report I think in the next few weeks. So that the findings from that could be devastating.

[00:29:08]So does show that actually one person can have a considerable influence on British politics. Could also be that um one person has um the influence on British politics that ends up handing Labour a massive lifeline right before this crucial bi-election.

[00:29:23]>> Exactly. uh I think restore clearly take a harder line and that raises a question about quite how hard because on the one hand there's a a potential critique open to to any good faith actor which is to say uh that they they want to tackle uh migration and that involves also dealing with people who are in this country who may be on indefinitely remain. The the question inevitably with migration policy is that there will be some people who will approach it from the point of view of social cohesion, economic efficiency, fairness and so on. Um and then there'll be others who just don't like people with a different colored skin and some of the rhetoric that has emanated from some of the restore Britain supporters seems dangerously close to that.

[00:30:11]>> Yes. And it's also been the case that there are some restore Britain supporters who seem to have attacked uh reform being too pro- Israel. Now again, you can uh legitimately question whether or not reform were too eager, bit like me perhaps, uh to support uh the uh Trump Netanyahu attack on Iran. You know, fair enough. Um but there does seem to be an extra edge to that. Am I being unfair in raising these questions about reform?

[00:30:44]Because you are right. I think that that Nigel Farage, even though there are some pretty dodgy characters who've been attracted to to reform, Nigel Farage has done his best explicitly to sort of keep house and to try to create a cord on sanitar uh between himself and people with genuinely nasty views.

[00:31:02]>> They are trying to do that, but it it's difficult. And I think that one of the dangers of potentially what could happen and the polling for Labour doesn't appear to I don't see it getting much better for them. No, I don't think the fundamentals are getting any better. Our economy is not getting any better.

[00:31:19]However much he tried to spin kind of anemic growth as some kind of great triumph. People are not feeling that.

[00:31:24]>> There may be if if Burnham wins this bi-election a temptation to then go for an early election. Yes. And that would have a really deltorious effect on Reform UK because time is what they need to get their get their ducks in a row and also manage a proper selection process so that they are finding candidates that are >> you know not just as capable as possible but also have been properly vetted and if it if it suddenly bounces into something that works against their interests. So this is this is really important stuff. I mean, their candidate in Makerfield, there just seems to be some quite amateurist mistakes being made. There is some quite sort of crude and tasteless social media comments that this chap has made on on X in the past, I think, before he knew that he was going to be in a public figure. What I don't really understand is why before you announce your who your candidate is and he gets the full scrutiny of the media, why not just delete all the social media accounts that are relevant?

[00:32:19]Like, it's so easy to do that in that day and age now. You can just get programs that delete everything. Yes, it is. I think I'm going to try to be objective here. So, it is the case that the reform candidate uh did post on social media a variety of things, references um quite sort of um sourcy more than that um about Carol Verman and then comments about the suitability of of uh women to play a role in sports and uh you know views on abortion and so on which well I'm sure >> the sports one actually.

[00:32:53]>> Yes. What does he say about women in sports?

[00:32:55]>> Uh he doesn't go a bundle on the idea of um uh you know perfect gender equality in the sporting arena. Um and I think it's also the case that uh his views on abortion again you know perfectly legitimate.

[00:33:06]>> I mean I think a lot of people are fed up >> but express expressed in a particularly pungent way. Yeah.

[00:33:11]>> Yeah. Now the key thing is as you say trying to be objective lots of people who've had nothing to do with politics have said all sorts of unfiltered things whether or not after a drink or not uh that would be uh if they were speaking publicly or addressing anyone who wasn't in their immediate friendship group they would as it were uh express themselves more moderately. And in a way that is proof if you need it that reform is about being a people's army. But I think one of the things that restore has over reform is that reform by accepting the argument that it needs to professionalize by accepting um all of these extoories um you know who were smoothie chops in government. It sort of said well you know we we we are a respectable movement and there is a sense of straddling both horses. I'll stop now because I was ranting.

[00:34:04]>> There's also an element where we have past peak woke. It's not 2020 anymore, thank God. And I'm not saying that that's just free-for-all. People can say anything they like. And I I found those comments quite distasteful and whatnot.

[00:34:16]You know, I kind of yearn for the days of, you know, like a Harold McMillan figure whose idea of a of a saucy joke is to say that he goes to bed with a trollup when he's talking about Bchester Towers or whatever. But sadly, those days are gone. Not really to my taste.

[00:34:29]Even more annoying, I think, or even worse are the kind of prudish sensors that are looking for, >> again, I'm I'm a bit torn on this one because >> determined to be offended.

[00:34:40]>> Yeah. Looking looking going out to be offended and uh policing kind of day-to-day coms.

[00:34:46]>> Equally, I just think it was quite a stupid thing to say on a public platform. It's not Facebook. It's it's X. Anyone can see what you >> So, I I agree with you.

[00:34:55]I I suppose in my uttering way what I'm trying to argue is that uh I may agree or disagree. I might think that the the reform candidates comments were distasteful or not but frankly the rush to be sensorious about it. I agree with you. You know why can't people be forgiven or why can't you pass over the occasional you know offcolor uh comment and so on. you know, the idea that everyone has to uh speak with the thoughtfulness, consideration, and gentility of Rowan Williams. No. Um that that is a ridiculous >> I mean, I genuinely dread to think what would happen if some of the kind of like the tasteless jokes that I would make with my friends in like a WhatsApp group were public. You know, I think people have a right to to to to be offensive and to be tasteless in a private >> if anyone if anyone recorded what happened at a spectator editorial conference, we'd all be in jail. Um but but but >> some more than others.

[00:35:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:52]>> Yeah. But we won't we won't go there.

[00:35:54]And my broader political point because I think that the you know the the philosophical point is right that it you know to to hound people for for these things is is ridiculous. And going back to the jailing of Lucy Connelly, I mean what she said was a bit silly and and distasteful. But the idea that the woman should have been in prison is preposterous. Especially when we can't imprison people for genuine like actual crimes, thefts, muggings, rape increasingly like it's >> exactly um you know the the the guy is entitled to uh a life in his opinions and so on. The broader point though politically is that there is a tension I think between saying uh we we have scrubbed up well and we're now a party of of government. Look at uh Robert Jennick's interesting tax ideas etc. and at the same time saying you're the people's army. And what restore can say is look, we're not compromising.

[00:36:44]>> Yeah.

[00:36:44]>> With establishment uni party mores.

[00:36:47]We're not taking Tory has beans in an effort to gussy ourselves up to win uh guardianista tolerance. Um and so if you want it if you want it hard, you know, if you want uh navy strength rum rather than the watered down >> Captain Morgan. Yeah. Yeah. Then go for us. And I can see I'm like, you know, wouldn't go for it, but I can see what the appeal is.

[00:37:13]>> Not a lamb's navy rum man.

[00:37:15]>> No, I think on this occasion I'm more of a Bardi Breezer, but in that I I actually think uh that I do sympathize with the position um that the the reform folk are in. Obviously, I'm not a reformed voter, but I do sympathize with it because I think on the one hand, >> saying to people who've been patronized or told that they're unclean for having, you know, politically incorrect views and tastes, saying to them that they shouldn't, you know, pretend that they can play a part in politics, that they should know their place. I find that uh distasteful. On the other hand, government is a serious business and you need to make sure that when you approach government that you are putting forward a team and ideas that are commensurate with the task of running a country like the United Kingdom.

[00:38:03]>> You want a varied group of people. I think they can't all be like the kind of treasury brain kind of gimps that haven't vitamin D deficient guys that often you find in the treasury and they haven't like seen sunlight for a long time and they're not going to inspire people and win hearts and minds but they they certainly know their way around Microsoft Excel. Yes, >> you need they can't all be like that equ you need people that are good for the gayity of nations who are entertaining and amusing which is equality in politics and you need the details people and you need the people who are great at I don't know pushing things through delivery within government and also people that can you can have someone incredibly talented but if they can't get on with people and implement their ideas like you know this is Dominick Cummings we interviewed unbelievably intelligent man but didn't always get on with those around him and that proved a problem in implementing his agenda so you want a a varied group of people.

[00:38:52]There's a big risk to reform if they're having to do all of that in a shorter space of time because of being bumped into some kind of election. Like that's potentially catastrophic.

[00:39:00]>> Yes. So if you're going >> and it's something that anyone on the right, even if you're not a like reform supporter now, if reform wins, >> you want them to succeed. You don't want them to make a hash of running the country. Not at least because there's also a worry about if reform fails, what replaces reform?

[00:39:14]>> Yes. So if if you're going to take on Sauron, you need the elves, the dwarves, the hobbits, uh the polished men of Gondor, and the rough men of Rohan >> and Trib >> all and Trib all in alliance together.

[00:39:29]Uh whereas uh to extend this analogy, at the moment the the dwarves are taking on the elves, the hobbits are wondering what the hell is going on. Um, and the men of Gondor and Rohan um are spending too much time tweeting about Carol Vman.

[00:39:46]>> There's a video that's gone viral on social media recently, and it's a clip of Steven Bartlett, the podcaster who runs the incredibly successful podcast, The Diary of a CEO. I don't quite know why it's called a diary because it's just him interviewing people, but uh it's got a snappy title. It's extremely popular. In the video, he talks about, and I think it's quite representative of a new phenomenon that that I've really come to see recently on social media in particular, and he talks about how having a couple of glasses of wine one day as someone who doesn't drink much anymore completely ruined him for the next three days. It meant that he couldn't sleep properly. He he then didn't podcast as well as he usually does and he missed going to the gym and everything was just working at not the optimal level and how awful this was.

[00:40:32]What Steven Bartlett represents is a kind of like you might call it hyperchondria, but there's this phenomenon of people just relentlessly tracking themselves, whether it's with their Aura ring or their um the Zoey app or their Apple Watch and whatnot >> and just just treating themselves. It's actually a kind of less psychopathic version of what Brian Johnston is doing in America where he's sort of maximizing his longevity in increasingly deranged ways. What is going on with people? I I couldn't agree more. There is this sort of curious urge now to map, datify um and subsequently control people's own bodies. Uh that that I think is almost slightly morbid. I wonder if it isn't partly an outgrowth from co where both you had a health scare and you also had people who suddenly became we all did instant epidemiologists tracking uh how the virus was going. that coincided with the growth of wearable tech. And you're quite right. You can scarcely move these days for people without these aura or nura or whatever rings uh these pieces of metal attached to their fingers which uh track their every vital sign. Um and similarly the case with um Apple watches, whooshes or whatever. um bits of technology that allow people to determine everything they ingest is doing to their system, what their you know their blood pressure or um uh other uh indications of activity are up to.

[00:42:00]And at the same time as measuring you also have the desire both to have the you know the diet drugs, the wgoies, the ompics and so on and also this new broader peptide craze. It is almost as though people at a time when everything seems out of control are trying to control the one thing they can their body by obsessive measurement obsessive intervention and then and both of those I think as I say are slightly morbid but well you know it's personal choice but then there's sort of morbid oversharing.

[00:42:39]>> Yeah. I also think that the level of relentless tracking that you described and the increasing self-interest, which I find just quite an inherently unattractive quality in a person. People who can only talk about what their aura ring said or their gut biome are just not going to be the most interesting people to hang out with. And maybe it's sexist of me, but I think particularly men that are obsessed, it's kind of >> I don't know. It's just it's just a bit lame. And um that's not what real men should be doing in my view.

[00:43:08]>> Yes. I I was brought up to believe that there are two things that you should never raise yourself in conversation. Um and they are you should never talk about your dreams because however interesting they are to you, they're tedious to anyone else unless unless it's a psychotherapist whom you're actually paying to listen to your and you know then they have a relevance. Um uh the other thing is don't talk about your health.

[00:43:30]>> Yeah.

[00:43:30]>> Nothing is more boring than your own health. Um uh there is a reason why you have a family um and that is that they can listen to your manderings or indeed uh take you off to see a professional uh if something's gone wrong. But uh my understanding was that there is nothing as tedious as someone telling you about their uh complaints or indeed um about the wonderful techniques they are. Um, you can compliment someone on how well they look. Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, then of course a gracious acknowledgement of the compliment and then go on to talk about something genuinely interesting like the weather um, or uh, uh, whether or not Jansenism was truly a heresy. Those are proper conversations.

[00:44:13]>> Yeah.

[00:44:14]>> Um, a a conversation about the firmness or otherwise of your stools. No.

[00:44:18]>> No. Like let's have a three-hour conversation about why the Titanic sank.

[00:44:23]That's one of my alltime favorite conversations to have. But yeah, I'm less interested in what your gut biome is doing, if that even exists. But there's just something interesting.

[00:44:31]Isn't it fascinating that in um 1815 um Jane Austin gets this bang to rights via the character of Mr. Woodhouse and Em.

[00:44:38]There's a sense that even over 200 years ago, and probably before that, that these people that are overly focused on their own health are >> tedious and sometimes quite tyrannical in the way that they use health to kind of control other people. I also think that it's not normal for a young healthy man. I think Steven Bartlett is about my age, probably like 33 or something. You should be a grown adult should be able to metabolize a couple of glasses of wine without like serious incident taking place. But the fact that it sends his system into haywire throughout human history, man has I'm not saying we've we've always been getting completely plastered and that was good for our health, but essentially a lot of day-to-day activities have historically been conducted with a couple of glasses of wine. You know, it's only in the 70s that they stopped giving rum rations on board naval ships, this kind of thing.

[00:45:26]And yet, we've now almost perhaps overtracked and over monitored so that our body actually can't withstand even the most temporary shock because if you're you're always optimizing for something, you actually cannot take even a low-level stress.

[00:45:38]>> No, it's interesting if one reads um novels which are set in the immediate post-war era or written in the immediate post-war era. It was standard issue for uh not just journalists and politicians um but for uh stock brokers and lawyers to have uh a sharpener at noon and uh a bottle or so at lunch. Now that probably contributes to the productivity decline that we saw those four years, but nevertheless um we're we're not talking about people who are so spaced out that they're incapable of uh all activity.

[00:46:14]We're not talking about people in a state of Catonia. I'm not recommending to our listeners uh that they have a gin and French at noon, though listening to this >> I'm going to I'm going to recommend it.

[00:46:26]>> Listening to this podcast, you might be tempted to. Um but but I agree there's an old phrase again I remember being told which has been attributed to nannies um throughout the ages but also to mothers uh which is nobody's looking at you dear. um uh which applies to all of us other than the bride obviously on her wedding day. Yeah. Didn't Deborah Mittford's nanny say that to her on the day that she was getting married to the Duke of Devonshire? And they all laugh as laugh as obviously everyone in the everyone at Westminster Abbey and beyond is looking at you.

[00:47:00]>> But the broader the broader principle I as I say this is not a clarion call uh for people to lead lives of utter dissolution and to uh look like Worel Gummage and think that that's okay. It is a plea for a certain level of uh uh modesty um and also a recognition more importantly that your first duty is not necessarily to your gut biome it's to other people and it is to not be boring >> and also impossible I mean how do you cater for these people if they come around for dinner you know I have a feeling that if you said to them >> the usual question of any dietaries which basically means tell me if there's something that you're very badly allergic to. But if it's just something you don't like, I'm not looking for a list. But I've noticed increasingly people >> if Steven Bartlett come down for dinner, do you have to say, um, this is a baro.

[00:47:53]It's 13.5% alcohol. Stephen, you may only want 125 milliliters in the glass.

[00:47:59]>> Tons of polyphenols.

[00:48:01]>> Yes, exactly. Or or we have this delicious like hawk at only 9% alcohol.

[00:48:05]Maybe you could have slightly more of that. We we add mineral water >> because that would send him into a coma as it's been established like he cannot take even a glass of wine without it doing something crazy to his we sort of perfect system that he's been trying to devise but I also wonder like what is all of the optimization for cuz I always thought that people who are super healthy >> yes it may they may take their efforts further than I would wish to live or you might wish to live but the ultimate point is that they want to live longer and presumably to live a better quality of life >> if you've optimized to the point where if you're not living a kind of in monastic terms but without anything unexpected, you have to basically live exactly the same day on day or your body goes into a catastrophic shock. Yes.

[00:48:50]>> Then what kind of life is that?

[00:48:51]>> It's basically sentient cryogenics. You have frozen your body and your mind is still alert but really there is almost no point in carrying on.

[00:49:03]>> Yeah. And you know whenever I notice whenever they interview super centinarians which sometimes happens if you get your local newspaper they'll be like Doris is got to 110 >> or whatever and they'll go and interview her and they say what's the secret? The secret is never I was monitoring my my fundamentals day after day after day.

[00:49:21]There's always an element of things being enjoyed in moderation. Yes, they're not morbidly morbidly obese actually quite I'm surprised by how often they have the occasional cigarettes or maybe a a glass of whiskey every night. there's there's something they look forward to. I remember there was a guy in Liverpool who said that he owed his I think he reached 113 and he said that he owed it all to his weekly chippy tea which he really looked forward to.

[00:49:42]>> If you don't have something to look forward to then people give up on life.

[00:49:46]So a certain amount of of joy and vitality is needed as well.

[00:49:49]>> I I think that's correct. I think that most people would affirm that. I actually suspect without wanting to be uh too drippy that it's the quality of relationships that keeps people going.

[00:50:01]Um, I think loneliness or depression, stroke, anxiety, stroke, melancholia, whatever you want to call it, is in both senses of the word a killer. Uh, and therefore um the the the a sense of bonomi being a radiator rather than a drain is both lifeenhancing for others and for yourself.