TRC Cases | Khampepe Commission of Inquiry: 30 April 2026

Added: 2026-04-30

[00:00:00]Good morning, Mr. Simea, >> chairperson, commissioners. We have advocate in Sabesa to help us today. I think he will be led by my learned colleague Mr. Vani.

[00:00:17]>> Mr. Vani, as the chairperson pleases, chairperson, we we we do have advocate Disabza SC available to testify. He is ready to take the affirmation.

[00:00:30]>> Thank you.

[00:00:32]Advocate Zabz, are you going to take an oath or affirmation? Sir, >> affirmation.

[00:00:40]>> Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? If so, raise your right and and you are so affirmed.

[00:00:52]>> I so affirmed.

[00:00:54]>> Thank you. Okay.

[00:00:58]Mr. Vani, >> thank you chairperson.

[00:01:02]Um, advocate and siza, firstly I want to thank you for making the time to be with us today. Uh, particularly given your current uh, health challenges. And so on behalf of the families, we're very grateful that notwithstanding these challenges.

[00:01:21]Um you you have assisted the families in putting up statements um and you've made yourself available to come to this commission and for that we are very grateful.

[00:01:37]We we will try to keep uh your evidence and chief um as short and concise as possible so that we don't detain you unduly.

[00:01:47]Be before we commence um I'd like to draw your attention to various um affidavits that you have made and I would like you to confirm that these affidavits are yours and that the signatures appended under each one are your signatures.

[00:02:07]And we'll start with the affidavit that you made out before this commission.

[00:02:12]That's at item number two of the index.

[00:02:15]It's your affidavit dated the 3rd of November 2025 and it's at pages 9 to 10 of the record.

[00:02:25]Do you confirm that that is your affidavit and your signature?

[00:02:31]>> If I may just look what page is it? Uh >> it's it's on page nine if you'll bear with me. Yes. Yes, it is.

[00:02:46]>> Thank you.

[00:02:49]Then let's turn to the affidavit which is item one of the index.

[00:02:55]And this is the affidavit that it's a supporting affidavit that you made out on the 8th of November 2024 in the case of Kite and others versus government of the Republic of South Africa and others. It's at page 128. Do you confirm that that is your affidavit and your signature?

[00:03:15]>> Yes, I do.

[00:03:16]>> Thank you.

[00:03:18]Then let's turn to um item number three and that is a supplementary affidavit that you made out before this commission of inquiry. It's dated the 14th of November 2025.

[00:03:34]It's at pages 11 to 17 of your bundle.

[00:03:41]pages 112.

[00:03:44]>> Do you confirm that as your affidavit and your signature?

[00:03:53]>> Um, when we file the affidav supplementary, it says supplementary statement.

[00:03:59]>> Yes.

[00:04:00]>> And 11 to 13.

[00:04:04]>> Yes.

[00:04:05]>> Yes. I confirm.

[00:04:06]>> Thank you. And then finally, we've also attached a copy of a supporting affidavit that you made out um on the 13th of May, 2015.

[00:04:19]It's at item 11 of the index. This is a supporting affidavit in the matter of incading versus national director of public prosecution and others.

[00:04:31]It's at pages 141 to 147 of the record. Do you confirm that that supporting affidavit is your affidavit and your signature appears at the foot of it.

[00:05:00]though in my file it starts at 141.

[00:05:05]>> Yes. Correct.

[00:05:06]>> Yes. And uh and goes to 147.

[00:05:11]>> That's correct.

[00:05:12]>> I confirm it.

[00:05:13]>> Yes. That that that was the application that um TB and Kadame now TMBI Similani brought against the NDPP to compel a decision in her sister's case. Noisani.

[00:05:31]Good. Now, let's um let's turn to you yourself, Advocate Beza. What what is your current designation? What what are you currently doing?

[00:05:46]>> Well, it's always a difficult question to respond to. I am in South Africa. Uh I'm a practicing advocate uh such as the Hispanic practice because I am also an appointee of the African Union where I am one of the 11 judges of the African Court on Human and People's Rights.

[00:06:19]that court seats in Tanzania Arushia four seasons each year.

[00:06:30]The last session which lasted the month this year was in February.

[00:06:38]The next session is going to be this coming June and so it and then the next session will be in September. The other one will be towards the end of the of the year.

[00:06:54]So yes, it's permissible for me to to to hold those two positions.

[00:07:04]>> But it's a strange >> and until recently you were the group leader of the Santon chapter of the Panaffrican Bar Association of South Africa, Papasa.

[00:07:18]>> Yes, I was.

[00:07:20]Can we then turn to uh your professional career and perhaps I can refer you to um page three that's of your um that's your confirmatory affidavit in the application launched by the cola group last year.

[00:07:42]So, if you turn to page three of this record and you go to paragraph three, um, just to remind yourself because I see you've had a long and distinguished professional career, but perhaps you can give the court a sense of your career.

[00:08:00]If you find it easy, you know, feel free to just simply read into the record the paragraphs under that that heading.

[00:08:10]>> Yes. I don't know about distinguish but it has been a fairly long career. If I could read what is here. I have practiced for over 40 years.

[00:08:28]Uh to as of today I was admitted as an attorney in 1984 practicing in the Eastern Cape mainly in what then was known as political cases in human rights cases. I represented many political prisoners throughout the 1980s and early 1990s.

[00:08:55]Between 1993 and 1996, I taught law at the University of the Trans Sky, which is now called Walter Sisulu University.

[00:09:07]In the mid to late 1990s, I was a truth and reconciliation commissioner or TRC commissioner and was the head of the investigative unit of the TRC.

[00:09:23]I was called to the bar in 2009 2000 and took sir in 2005.

[00:09:32]I've been an acting judge in three divisions of the High Court of South Africa as well as in the labor court on several occasions. In 2004, I was appointed by the secretary general of the United Nations as a member of the International Commission of Inquiry on DAU, not this current one. um which was established pursuant to a United Nations Security Council resolution passed under chapter 7 of the United Nations Charter to investigate violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law in Daur.

[00:10:22]In 2011, I was appointed by the socioeconomic rights institute as lead council on behalf of the families of the 37 Marana miners who were killed by the police.

[00:10:40]In 2017, the University of Fort Council appointed me as chancellor of the University of Fort which was renewed in 2022 for another 5 years.

[00:10:56]I'm a founder or a founder. It should read a founder member. I'm a founder member of the South African National Association of Democratic Lawyers, Nadell in short, and I served as its president.

[00:11:16]I also served as president of the South African Black Lawyers Association.

[00:11:22]I was a member of the judicial service commission and a visiting professor of political science and law at the University of Connecticut in the United States. I'm a former chairperson of the Desbon to Peace Trust and I was a trustee of the Nelson Mandela Foundation.

[00:11:47]I was appointed as ombbudsman by by cricket South Africa. I also serve as a council member of the University of Cape Town. I no longer serve just to make a correction. I no longer say but as at the date that I was doing this affidavit I was Rose University also confirmed on me a doctor of law degree LLD on Norris Koza in 2021.

[00:12:26]In 2021, I was appointed by the African Union heads of state and government ordinary summit as a judge of the African court on human and people's rights and advocate at least advocate.

[00:12:47]It occurs to me that there's one important omission uh from that list and probably because it was attached to an affidavit which made reference to your involvement with the truth and reconciliation commission it wasn't included but but for the record can you uh describe your position and role at the TRC the truth and reconciliation commission. Well, I was appointed as a member or a commissioner of the TRC by the president, president Mandela.

[00:13:23]um um in the I think in 1994 thereabouts and when we gathered for the very first time um in Cape Town which was the seat in the Cape of the Truth and recon translation commission.

[00:13:55]Um the commissioners gathered and elected me to be the commissioner in charge of the investigative unit of the truth and reconciliation commission and the election and therefore appointment was was unanimous.

[00:14:22]Thank you. And a bit later in your evidence and chief, we will return to your role at the at the TRC.

[00:14:32]Um, now since the winding up of the TRC, um, it's well known that you have been assisting victims, survivors, and families uh, to seek justice in in cases where amnesty was refused or not applied for.

[00:14:51]But I understand that you actually have a very personal connection because a member of your own family um suffered a gross human rights violation u namely Batandoa and Dondo.

[00:15:09]>> Yes. Could you just give the commission a very um high level and brief explanation as to what happened to Batandua Dondo and your efforts to achieve justice since that fateful day?

[00:15:26]>> Now, how high level is high level?

[00:15:31]>> Well, we we we don't want to take up too much time, but this case has already been highlighted before this commission.

[00:15:37]So I think it would be interesting to hear your perspective.

[00:15:41]>> Yes.

[00:15:42]>> Ju just a few minutes please.

[00:15:44]>> No no I will I will endeavor to to to say it in a in a few minutes but I will seek to ensure that nobody is lost as to what I'm referring to. Uh unfortunately this book uh with a title unfinished business South Africa apart and truth is a book that I authored with Terry Bell and we have devoted an entire chapter to the and we have appropriately you know headed it the killing of Batan Duo.

[00:16:26]Now the high level of it is that on the 24th of September 1985, Batan Dondo whose mother and my mother are siblings was at home in Kala Kalanga district in the Eastern Cape.

[00:16:50]And the shortened version of the story is that he was called to a kumbi that was waiting outside and we will never know what it was. But when he came out uh of the kumbi, it was to report to a friend of his who was inside our home to say, "Man, these guys say I must go with them."

[00:17:27]and u and he said I I would like you to to keep a distance but follow us.

[00:17:41]There's something I do not feel comfortable about about what they have asked me to do.

[00:17:52]Cutting a long short a long story short as that kumbi which was tinted whose windows were tinted instantly as it was proceeding out of Gala town.

[00:18:14]It came to a dead stop because Batano got out of the window, ran across the road shouting, "These people are killing me.

[00:18:30]These people are killing me."

[00:18:33]and he went around a house that was along the road or they in the yard which he had run and as he was running he was shot and the pathologist Dr. reporter who gave an account of what his autopsy report was recorded that Batano had been shot eight times and seven of those bullets were whilst he was in a supine position.

[00:19:18]So as he was lying there at the foot of the female, the mama whose house it was that he had tried to circle being chased by by the Ascaris as well as Mr. Dandala was a security police from Tata.

[00:19:48]That mother exclaimed, "Whose child is this was being killed like a dog and breathing his last or almost his last he said I am from the family that's as far now." Now the thing is and what is what concerns me but talking about the 24th of September 1985.

[00:20:24]All attempts that we made and I say we I made and my brother made to pursue justice in this case.

[00:20:39]uh fell on deaf ears. U um but that year I mean from 1985 to last year for the very first time Mr. Dandala was the situ policeman who had accompanied these ascaris from to my home.

[00:21:06]He he appeared before the magistrate's court for the matter to be remanded to the high court for trial.

[00:21:20]From 1985 to last year, there had been no prosecution.

[00:21:36]I I believe that some of the people who had been involved in the Kenya special females have all since died.

[00:21:51]That's Bandon and my relationship with him.

[00:21:57]Thank >> Thank you. And uh just for the record, this is what we've been able to uncover in our research.

[00:22:07]Um, an inquest into death uh was held in 1987 and four people were implicated including one um uh Dandala and in August of 1988 um three persons applied for amnesty. It included Dandala, Mr. Shabalala and Eugene Dak and the and Shabalala were granted amnesty but it was refused in respect of Dandala.

[00:22:42]Is that your recollection?

[00:22:44]>> Yes, I remember that I always tied the refusal to Dandala with a refusal of amnesty to the then you know trans leader Quesa Matanima.

[00:23:01]>> Yes.

[00:23:04]And do you recall submitting a formal sorry commissioner?

[00:23:09]>> Do we have Mr. Dandala's first name?

[00:23:11]There are many Dandalas.

[00:23:14]>> Um, yes, Commissioner, we do. His full name.

[00:23:19]>> Um, is Ganis G I N I S I K O. Lamont Dandala is Denise. G C I N I S I K.

[00:23:36]>> Okay, >> thanks for that correct spelling.

[00:23:39]>> Thank you.

[00:23:42]>> Um and then advocate and Sabza um do you recall uh in 2006 approaching the NPA to investigate um Indo's murder?

[00:23:58]>> Yes.

[00:24:00]several occasions and I think the NPA at that time in Tata was headed by advocate Fale who went thereafter to Cape Town to practice but he is the he was the person who was serving as the attorney general in the Traya at that time and in spite of all the effort reports that were made including by me and again it is in this the killing of what chapter um nothing came of it and then then you mentioned that um uh in November of 2025 the Eastern Cape DPP berry Madola made a decision to charge uh that former police officer Dandala with the 1985 murder of Indo and he appeared in court in the same month.

[00:25:14]What do you account for this decadesl long delay in pursuing this case when it appeared that um it wasn't a particularly complex matter to to take up?

[00:25:28]I would really like to know what the answer would be to that question because as I indicated as even as soon as it had happened, I had personally engaged the attorney general as it then was known and over the years I kept on writing to the extent that it was possible. My brother, Professor Lumis and Sabza also did the same because he was at home at on the day that Batan was fetched from our home and was subsequently killed.

[00:26:08]But I mean from the 24th of September 1985 to just recently being pushed from pillar to post without being given as a an answer as to why none of the killers of Batano have been prosecuted has been quite a heavy burden. to bear.

[00:26:44]>> Let's now turn back to the um handover of the cases uh by the TRC to the NPA. And I understand that you played um a role in the handover the cases. And perhaps just to refresh your memory, if I can ask you to turn to page 98 of your bundle, uh you will see that there is an extract from the founding affidavit of Lano Colato, which is from the application that he and the 25 families brought in January last year.

[00:27:33]And in paragraphs 95 and 96 onwards uh Mr. Collato refers to um an account in which certain lists were handed over to the NPA and that you and Commissioner Yasmin Suka uh from October 1998 engaged in correspondence and you had uh meetings with the then NDPP Bulani and Luka as well as um then advocate Vincent Sana.

[00:28:18]Do you recall playing a role in the handover of the TRC cases to the MPA?

[00:28:26]>> I certainly recall the central central effects surrounding that.

[00:28:34]My memory is no longer as sharp as that of young people like Yasmin Suga who still remembers sister. But without being physicious, I remember that you see this is what happened at the end of 1996 after we had handed over the full report of the TRC.

[00:28:59]Yasmin Suga who was in the human rights violations committee of the TRC was appointed or was recommended for appointed by all of us to go to the amnesty committee uh which was going to determine the fate of all cases that could not have been finished when people had made applications for amnesty during the mandate period 199 up to 1998.

[00:29:32]So, so Yasmin was in the Amnesty Committee and we must if I may get permission to just indicate that the Amnesty Committee was the only quasai judicial committee in the TRC.

[00:29:54]When people apply for amnesty, we were not going to say to them, well, you know, the mandate period of the TRC's is now over. Thank you very much.

[00:30:08]People wanted to know whether or not they would be granted amnesty or not.

[00:30:13]And that's why there was therefore this extension of the period of the TRC. And that's how Yasmin from the human rights violations committee where she was vice chair to Archbishop Desmond Tutu was transferred to the amnesty committee and they did their work until they had finished all the cases and all the cases I think the completion date was either 2001 or 2003 and it was then that Jasmine said look we need to um uh take our um findings um to the presidency um and and and then then that's how then we we began meeting uh uh these uh officials, you know. Um, but the purpose was to then say, look, there have been people who there are 300 odd cases which need either prosecution or further investigation or both.

[00:31:47]>> Thank you.

[00:31:49]Um just a a small correction uh when you mentioned towards the end of 1996 I think you meant to say the end of 1998.

[00:31:58]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> Yeah. Um and just in relation to uh Yasmin Suka who's who's also testified before um this commission um it is correct that that she maintained a role um in the TRC post 1998 all the way through to the issuing of the final volume. I believe it was volume six um in 2002.

[00:32:30]Um she didn't mention that she she had been secundered or transferred to the amnesty committee but she was retained by the TRC to lies with the amnesty committee and >> yes >> and then um oversee the issuing of that final volume of the report. That may be a more accurate, you know, statement of what happened. But what I what I wanted to emphasize is that when all of us left the TRC because it had come to a mandated period of its existence in 1998, you know, Yasmin continued to be part of the TRC.

[00:33:13]And I recall that it was as a consequence of all of us commissioners agreeing that there needs to be one of us who's going to be working in closely with the amnesty committee. It is in that sense that I said she went and was part of the amnesty committee.

[00:33:37]>> Yes.

[00:33:44]Then let's turn to the um the different attempts that you and the former TRC commissioners um that you made in in respect of a call for a commission of inquiry and uh The detail of these different petitions and letters are set out um in the colata affidavit um from page two.

[00:34:25]Firstly, can I ask um why was it that uh you and the former TRC commissioners uh decided in early 2019 to um approach uh President Remiposa with the request that he establish a commission of inquiry into uh alleged interference in the TRC cases.

[00:35:00]The question is >> so um perhaps just just to refresh your memory you can turn to page 102 uh in in your bundle.

[00:35:11]>> Yes. Uh and there there you'll see that on in February 2019, 10 former commissioners of the TRC um addressed a letter to the president calling upon him to appoint a commission of inquiry into the interference that undermined the TRC cases and commissioners. Uh that letter is actually attached to this bundle.

[00:35:41]Um, it said at item eight, commissioner's letter to the No, it's not item eight.

[00:35:58]Sorry, it's item seven.

[00:36:02]Uh, the former TOC commission is lettered to the president dated 5 February 2019.

[00:36:08]That's at page 121.

[00:36:12]So, so, so the question is why in in in early 2019 did you and the other commissioners uh decide to approach uh the president with a request that he establish a commission of inquiry.

[00:36:30]>> I think it it had become clear to us that there was a lot of unfinished business. The TRC matters. There were still cases that had not been resolved in the sense that it's either there have been there had been no prosecutions or there there had been no further investigations.

[00:36:54]And uh to us as commissioners, even though it was so many years after the first session of the TRC had, you know, had come to an end at the end of 1998, it was still our concern that our work was appearing to be just disappearing and was not going to be accounted for. I think there were ways in which we got together and we sought that uh there should be there should be an intervention and that intervention would be to do what we did to approach the the the presidency for for some something to be done about what it was clear to us was the unfinished business of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Perhaps I need to say this.

[00:38:03]Um, South Africa at the commencement of the TRC had had adopted a stance a reposition in which you know even the defined gross violations of human rights, killings, abductions, torture, severe ill treatment which were defined as gross violations of human rights.

[00:38:39]But the TRC the act paraphrasing said people would even if they were found to have committed those crimes, however heinous the crimes were, they would be, you know, they would be granted amnesty. There were certain provisions One provision was that there should have been a full disclosure of all the facts relevant to the commission of the gross violations of human rights relation to which there was this application for amnesty.

[00:39:18]And the other you know requirement was that it should be related to violations of human rights.

[00:39:31]So people were given a period during which they must make you know applications for amnesty and and it was clear the law was clear that if the people didn't apply for amnesty when they knew they ought to have applied for amnesty or if having applied for amnesty They came to the commission and gave the commissioners listening a teacher of lies and therefore we refused amnesty. Then the law had to be applicable. Then people who had not been charged because they had either applied for amnesty or they had been granted amnesty or had not been granted amnesty then they would be charged.

[00:40:24]So that is the background and that is as far as I recall that was the reasoning uh for a time limit those who had applied for amnesty within that period or those who you know who who didn't have a basis for applying for amnesty and therefore were refused they would then you know that amnesty would not be available to them. So the period after the first handing in of the five volumes of the TRC up to 2001 2003 was the period that after that period 300 odd cases were found to be cases in relation to each amnesty on whatever bas could not be granted and those were the cases in relation to which one expected that from that time take for instance my cousin's case you know if he had served if he had been looked into case but there was nothing that happened between 2003 even in cases where there had been clear indication. So the commissioners felt that you know even the archbishop felt that you know this is something in relation to which the authorities must be approached because it was it was casting a dark cloud on what the commission had done and uh and we felt that it was a disservice to the commission. years.

[00:42:37]And of course, it wasn't just the indoor matter that um had been visited with neglect. Um, as I understand it, you were also supporting um, other families and it's a matter of record before this commission that following the uh, plea bargain that had been struck in the Chucani matter in 2007, um, there were no further inquests in respect to the TRC cases or proc prosecutions uh until 2016 when an indictment was issued in the Natula Similani case and you will recall that you signed a supporting affidavit in that matter um that's at item 11 pages 141 >> to 147 in which Timmy Similani went to court to compel a decision out of the MPA in her sister's case.

[00:43:52]Um so that that was a period of apparent inaction of about 9 years nearly 10 years.

[00:44:03]>> Yes. Um, what is your reaction to the fact that uh the family of Natula Similani had to make a substantive application to court to force a decision out of the NPA in respect of her sister's case which also dated back to the the early 1980s.

[00:44:27]Well, I I mean it was disconcerting especially if one looks at the the manner in which Simani was abducted and and severely tortured.

[00:44:47]Um it's it's un it's unspeakable even to describe the way that she underwent the kinds of torture you know that similar underwent and and it's not as though there were no efforts to indicate that the perpetrators ought to be followed and be and be prosecuted that nothing of the nature happened.

[00:45:32]And for me what is disconcerting is the fact that for some reasons the delay was of a nature that caused the perpetrators either to escape being charged or they died.

[00:46:00]which would mean that uh the the relatives of those who had been killed would not have seen or known justice.

[00:46:20]So it's it's been a matter of great discon.

[00:46:27]>> Yes.

[00:46:31]Well, at least that case did did then open the door to some action because um as mentioned the indictment was issued the following year in 2016 and then we saw the T-Mol inquest taking place in 2017 and then others followed.

[00:46:49]If we could return to February of 2019 when uh you and the other commissioners called upon the president to establish a commission of inquiry.

[00:47:01]Um, am I right in saying that you were in part prompted by developments in the Rodriguez case which was happening around that time and you'll recall in the Rodriguez case um he sought a permanent stay of prosecution because of the long delay um and it was in that matter an affidavit was um filed by the NPA in which um the NPA admitted that it had been subject to political interference.

[00:47:35]Am I correct in saying that that development prompted you and the commissioners to seek a commission of inquiry?

[00:47:43]>> Yes, indeed.

[00:47:44]>> Yes.

[00:47:47]And can I get your comment on the approach um of of the NPA um in that matter advocate um TP Ptorius Turi Ptorius he put up a supplementary affidavit in in which he stated that uh yes the NPA had been subjected to interference in relation to those cases.

[00:48:17]But that blame should not be attributed to the MPA because they were the victims in that case.

[00:48:26]The the the blame should be attributed to the outside forces who imposed their will on the NPA. What what's your response to to that stance the NPA took?

[00:48:39]>> Well, unfortunately I disagree.

[00:48:43]I mean the NPA as at that time had a duty to perform and they could not in my honest and respectful view simply not do the work that they ought to have done to pursue prosecutions to the beta on the basis that repres was pushing.

[00:49:20]Now, the judgment of the full court in the Rodriguez matter um noted with concern um the the interference and called upon the NDPP uh to conduct um uh an investigation or inquiry.

[00:49:44]Um and this was also endorsed by the uh Supreme Court of Appeal.

[00:49:51]Am I right in saying that this ultimately led you to be appointed by the NDPP to conduct uh an inquiry which has become known as the Inba inquiry?

[00:50:06]M well when one looks back on things one is able to say that that in fact is so though I've got something to to say about that appointment.

[00:50:29]Um, it was it was a strange appointment as as things are because I was just given a brief to give an opinion as to what the measures are that the NPA should take in the further investigation or prosecution of TRC related cases.

[00:51:03]No unit, no investigating unit, no I mean it was just a brief to nothing more.

[00:51:13]Um and it was after I had two and four engaged the the NPA on the brief that I had received and I had said the minimum that you can do without a structure to investigate things that ought to be investigated via the brief at least. is I need the support of no less than two junior council who are going to do the heavy lifting going backwards and forwards and making the kinds of inquiries that they ought to make.

[00:52:01]And that is why by the time I wrote what is called my report, it was with the able assistance that I got from the junior council particularly Shista Kazier and we we then wrote the report and it was because of the difficulty that I had experienced in in such a mammoth task as to establish what the NPA or the national director of public prosecution ions at the time had asked me to do that in my recommen or in one of the recommend one of the recommendations I made was that there must be a full-blown inquiry and that inquiry must have this you know search and seizure this that and the next thing and that the question of political interference must be investig stigated because it became a theme.

[00:53:18]Uh yes you know uh we wanted to do this TRC related this TR Aman was reported by my assistants to to have told them you know to have indicated that they were interfered with who I called to my my inquiry was, you know, unequivocal in stating, you know, that there was polygon interference.

[00:54:02]I didn't get the you know the opportunity because of time to get input from Chris Malam for instance but it was enough for me to write the report that I did and especially as I say after Vousy Picoli himself came to to my so-called inquiry Thank you.

[00:54:33]>> Uzza, you also decry the fact that um the terms of reference were too narrow.

[00:54:43]Um if you can perhaps um say what else would you have wanted to see in the terms of reference?

[00:54:58]Well, to the extent that, you know, as I say, it was an investigation where I didn't have the machinery to to do the investigation that I would have wanted to do. Um, I would have loved the terms of reference to to be specific about whether having made the findings or when making the recommendations, I would also be directed to um indicate what should be done for quick resolution of matters that have not you know that have not been resolved for decades of years.

[00:56:00]>> Yes.

[00:56:01]>> So that was for me outstanding.

[00:56:06]>> Yes.

[00:56:06]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[00:56:08]>> Thank you.

[00:56:10]>> Thank you commissioner chair personn.

[00:56:13]It's almost 11:00 a.m.

[00:56:15]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:56:16]>> Would this be an appropriate time for the T adjournment?

[00:56:18]>> We will adjourn and reconvene at 11:15.

[00:56:23]>> As the commission pleases Thank you, Mr. Vani.

[01:16:10]>> Thank you, chairperson.

[01:16:16]um advocate and SZA just before tea time we were dealing with um your inquiry and perhaps just to wrap up that section of your evidence and chief can I ask you to turn to page five of your bundle and I'm going to ask you to read in the record um paragraphs 15.4 through to 15.5.2.

[01:16:55]15.4 is at the bottom of page five.

[01:17:08]U well it it starts at 15 we say I specifically confirm that >> um at 15.4 >> 15.4 for >> the bottom of page five >> that in January 2023, I was appointed by the NPA to review the measures that had been adopted to deal with and prosecute TRC matters and to provide recommendations as needed >> and then then you can Continue on the next page down to 15.5.2.

[01:18:03]>> I submitted my report to the NPA in June 2023 and it was released in February 2024.

[01:18:14]In this report, I found that the NPA and the PCLU were swayed from their constitutional and statutory duties in relation to the TRT TRC cases.

[01:18:31]My inquiry could not investigate the political interference given the narrow ambit of its terms of reference and its lack of investigative powers >> on on that just before you continue on that score about its lack of investigative powers and its narrow terms of reference. Am I am I right in saying that uh your mandate only extended to looking into uh the NPA and and not other institutions?

[01:19:07]>> Yes.

[01:19:09]>> And in in relation to your lack of investigative powers, what what was that lack? Would it have been for example um you had no power to um subpoena in in in individuals or or documents? You didn't have the power of search and seizure.

[01:19:28]>> Yes.

[01:19:30]>> So in that in that sense you were saying that that that you were quite constrained.

[01:19:34]>> Yes. as I I think as I testified before before the tea break um even getting the assistance very able assistance of the two junior council who assisted me was at my request because I felt I couldn't just do this without you know supportive uh assistance of the nature that I eventually then got from the from the from the advocates but even so I mean let's say for instance somebody said you know there was political interference you know here is the evidence who was going to chase that evidence in such a way that you know when we make a finding to that effect finding was uh was backed by at least some some evidence that was a product of investigations.

[01:20:44]Thank you.

[01:20:47]Um then in in the in the light of that um could you read into the record your recommendations dealing with um the alleged interference.

[01:21:03]So from 15.6 down to 15.6.3 >> I recommended that one a commission of inquiry was the only sensible way to get to the bottom of why the TRC cases were neglected and suppressed.

[01:21:25]Two, a commission must investigate the extent and rational behind the political interference and look into the roles of multiple state entities as well as implicated individuals.

[01:21:48]Three, it must be a public inquiry and be empowered to hold hearings and conduct a proper investigation, including the exercise of powers of subpoena and search and seizure.

[01:22:06]>> Thank you.

[01:22:08]Now, now you stated 15.5 that you submitted your report to the NPA in June 2023 and it was only released in February 2024.

[01:22:20]So, we're looking at a a delay of around seven or eight months.

[01:22:26]Um, were you concerned at the long time it took to release your report publicly?

[01:22:35]Yes, madame commissioner. I was um which is why I was at 607 at the end of having compiled my report as to whether I should publish it. But then I felt that that would not be the proper way to deal with it because I had been instructed by the NPA and therefore my report would have to go back to them. But I kept on asking you know when it was going to be made available to the public. So I was quite concerned about the fact that after I had given my opinion there didn't seem to be any action that would be following the recommendations that I had made.

[01:23:35]No. You issued your report to the NPA in June of 2023 and you recommended that a commission of inquiry was the only sensible way forward in relation to the um neglect visited upon the TRC cases.

[01:24:00]And yet um that did not appear to be taken forward because the families ultimately had to launch an application to the high court uh early last year, 2025, in which part of the relief they sought was an order compelling the president to establish a commission of inquiry.

[01:24:28]and and then as we know that matter was partially settled when the president agreed to establish a commission.

[01:24:37]Um what's what's your reaction to the fact that it appears that your recommendation was not taken forward in relation to a commission of inquiry and that the several of the families then had to launch a substantial application to court in order to get this commission.

[01:25:03]And to be frank, my my reaction was not dissimilar to the reaction that we as TRC commissioners had had.

[01:25:19]Um when you know the there clearly was a need for investigation of those cases in relation to which amnesty had not been granted but there had been no steps that had been taken because we must understand that ability was always had of uh what needs to be done about TRC related cases. They can't just disappear especially those cases 300 odd cases in relation to which amnesty had not been granted on whatever basis.

[01:26:13]Um my sense is that it would have been a travesty of justice for nothing to happen.

[01:26:23]Um so I had expected that there would be prosecutions and or further investigations um as was required by the law.

[01:26:36]Accountability.

[01:26:39]>> Thank you.

[01:26:42]Now, I want to turn to your uh supplementary uh affidavit that's at page 11 of your bundle.

[01:26:56]And you you will recall that uh towards the end of of last year, you brought to the attention um of the family's legal team an incident that took place uh while you were a TRC commissioner um during the late 1990s.

[01:27:28]and you stated that you needed to bring this uh incident to the attention of the commissioners.

[01:27:35]It deals with your encounter with uh the late General Tiny Kunovt um and other former SADF officers.

[01:27:47]Now, I'm going to ask you because I think it's quite important for the commission to hear this.

[01:27:53]I'm going to ask you to read into the record uh paragraphs 5- 16 of the supplementary statement.

[01:28:06]It's at page 11 of the bundle.

[01:28:14]>> Yes. Um paragraph five is at the bottom of of the page. Yeah.

[01:28:21]>> Yes. I I I I I see I see that I I can still remember that day. Anyway, uh if I'm not covered it in the way in which I still remember it in these pages, I will do so with the permission.

[01:28:40]>> You're free to add anything you wish afterwards. Well, perhaps let me pre reading this by saying it. It was a very strange request because you know the late chairman of the commission archbishop Desmond and the late deputy chair of the commission Alex Borin they called me with Mr. Mala and say, "Listen, we have received a call um and there's been a request that um the you know those who are in the in the security services want to to see and meet you because they have something to to indicate to you.

[01:29:50]I didn't know whether Dr. and the archbishop knew exactly what it was beforehand and I then you know took Mr. Magala with me and we were came to a place central Johansburg. It was known then as the job sun bluish very prestigious hotel and we were told to go to a particular floor and we went there and I think what I am indicating here is is is something that has lived with me as a matter of concern for quite some time because we were being confronted by part the late Ting Dr. Ting with digging too deep in our investigations which was against what had been agreed upon. That's that's how it came across to us. And then they told us that there had been an agreement that, you know, the TRC would, you know, would not dig as deep as we were, especially um in the investigation of these violations of human rights.

[01:31:41]And the rest is covered in this uh in this affidavit because we listened and at the end of it we we simply said okay we we we have we have heard but that you know we do investigations at the beest of uh the archbishop and and the you know and the and the TRC commission in his entirety but that we do not have that kind of uh instruction. We are not aware that there were exceptions that we're supposed to make in our investigation of gross violations of human rights as defined by the act.

[01:32:45]>> So I can I can Yes.

[01:32:47]>> Yes. I think with with with that overview it would be uh useful for the commission to to hear the detail from paragraphs 5 to 16.

[01:32:56]I wish to bring to the attention of the commission a recent recollection I had regarding an interaction I had during or about 1996 or 1997 with former senior officers of the former South African Defense Force SADF including Major General Peter Hendrik was a major general in the South African Defense Force and was head of military intelligence in the mid 1980s under President PW Ba.

[01:33:36]Kunivalt had been involved in clandestine operations to assist the UNITA and Lamo rebels in Angola and Mosmbique and in South Africa in the mid 1980s.

[01:33:51]is spearheaded headed secret support including offensive paramilitary support for Mangosutu bhutil's inata movement for purpose purposes of promoting division and violent instability amongst black people was also a key figure in the early 199 90s quote commission of generals committee of generals that opposed the political transition and supported the creation of an independent Africana state.

[01:34:38]The committee of generals was formed around 1993 following the assassination of Chrisani with the goal of uniting ripening groups.

[01:34:54]Other prominent members included General Constant, Left General Guish or Biskov, Left General Kubas Fer and Lang, exuty Commissioner of Police.

[01:35:19]died on the 2nd of November 2015.

[01:35:24]Around 1996 or 1997, I was asked to attend a meeting with and other former senior SADF officers at the Johannesburg Sun and Towers Hotel.

[01:35:42]I was accompanied by Lu Wilson Magala, the head of the TRC's special investigative unit.

[01:35:54]Magala died in August 2011.

[01:36:01]I believe that this meeting has significant relevance for this commission.

[01:36:06]At this meeting, Kronovald and his colleagues urged me to cease investigations against the former aparate security forces since they had an agreement in place with the ANC that aparted era crimes would not be pursued.

[01:36:29]Around this time, the TRC address covered a large number of SEDF and military intelligence MI documents under a search and seizure warrant.

[01:36:47]I recall that expressed shock at how rigorously the TRC was pursuing its mandate.

[01:36:59]Given that there had been an agreement between the ANC, the National Party and highranking officials of the SADF not to investigate those involved in past conflicts.

[01:37:17]He also said that they were in possession of dossiers which seriously compromise senior NC officials.

[01:37:30]I informed Kunival that in respect of my investigations of the TRC, I take instructions only from the chair of the TRC, Archbishop Tutu, and no one else.

[01:37:51]I recall that at some point after the meeting, Mala and I reported to Tutu and Alex Burin, the deputy chair of the TRC.

[01:38:06]They advised us that we had adopted the right approach in our encounter with the generals.

[01:38:15]Nobody else was present in that meeting.

[01:38:20]Borin died in 2018 and Tutu died in 2021.

[01:38:28]At the time I do I do not recall making a written record of this engagement or the contents thereof. I do however recall speaking on the issue with a Cape Townbased radio station although I have not been able to find a recording of the interview.

[01:38:58]Some years later in 2015 when I was interviewed by Steven Hutus on Cape Talk or radio 702.

[01:39:15]I made I made reference to this encounter.

[01:39:21]A transcribed copy of the relevant portion of this interview is a next year to marked DBN1.

[01:39:33]The remarks by accord with what has since been alleged about an informal agreement not to pursue the TRC cases.

[01:39:49]In particular, it accords with a statement made by FW by the FWT declar Foundation in July 2021 which confirmed that there existed in codes an informal agreement between the NC leadership and former operatives of the pre994 government which ensured that quote the NPA suspended its prosecutions of abanded era crimes in brackets FW statement the statement is annexed yet to as DBN2 two.

[01:40:48]>> Thank you. And actually, let's let's turn to uh the statement of the FW de Clerk Foundation on page 16.

[01:41:06]And as you can see, uh the heading is titled the NPA's decision to prosecute apartate error crimes.

[01:41:15]uh the FW D Clerk Foundation uh editorial and then just by way of of background uh we know that the statement was issued in July of 2021.

[01:41:30]Um FW de Clerk himself uh died months later on the 11th of November 2021.

[01:41:40]So I think we can assume that he approved the issuing of the statement or as it's called an editorial.

[01:41:50]Now, this editorial makes reference to the Rodriguez case which we we have discussed and the and statements that the NPA subsequently made pointing out that it will proceed with uh prosecutions.

[01:42:09]And perhaps you can just read into the record the last paragraph on this page >> on on page 16. on page 16, the the the paragraph at the foot of the page, >> because of an informal agreement between the NS leadership and former operatives of the pre994 government.

[01:42:37]The NPA suspended its prosecutions of aarted era crimes.

[01:42:46]However, in June 2019, in another matter affecting Rodriguez, the Houding High Court instructed the National Director of Public Prosecutions Advocate Shamila Batoy to inquire whether improper influence had been brought to bear on the NPA in suspending ing aparted era prosecutions.

[01:43:19]>> Thank you. So, Advocate Speza, now we have a situation where in the uh late 1990s you have this encounter with former senior SADF officers who indicate to you that um there is an arrangement or agreement in place not to pursue these cases and they take exception with your rigorous investigations.

[01:43:52]Um and then in 2021 we hear from um effectively FW the clerk through the FW clerk foundation saying that there was an informal agreement between the ANC leadership and the former operatives of the aarted era government um to suspend its prosecutions of of of these cases.

[01:44:29]What is your reaction uh to that? And and do you think it serves to explain why there has been so little progress in the TRC cases?

[01:44:41]>> You know, I think the FWL statement puts it more succinctly than I ever could.

[01:44:51]Um it's not um it does not appear to me to be an inference that should be drawn from the events. It appears to me very clearly to be stating what the foundation and the had agreed upon.

[01:45:18]no prosecution of a date era crimes and that's what triggered in me what had said to me and when we met them at the job as previously indicated this is as explicit a statement as one could find of what a functionary of the TLE foundation seems to confirm, namely of an of an agreement between it, I mean the NC and and whoever was who was going to be speaking on behalf of the South African government of that time.

[01:46:28]So if one was going to be speculating about what was meaning when he says you know you seem to be digging too deep. I'm not using exactly the words he used.

[01:46:49]Then at least the subsequent statement, the one that I've been asked to read into the record, seems to be very clearly indicative of uh of the existence of an agreement, you know, and unfortunately we don't know the terms of that agreement, but there you are.

[01:47:17]>> Thank you.

[01:47:22]Now before this commission uh there has been a narrative emerging um from the uh government parties uh to this commission.

[01:47:39]U I think without exception that uh and the narrative goes as follows.

[01:47:47]There was no interference uh or obstruction in the TRC uh cases, certainly not by the executive and that uh the failure to uh proceed with most of the prosecutions can be attributable to the fault of individual prosecutors who who failed to do their their jobs.

[01:48:15]So I want to seek your uh response to that uh narrative in the light of the following.

[01:48:25]One, the instruction by the then minister of justice in 2004 to the then acting NDP to suspend work on the TRC cases pending the issuing of guidelines.

[01:48:44]two, when the guidelines or the amendments to the policy come out, they carve out a special dispensation for the TRSC cases. And of course, we're dealing with murder and kidnapping, those kinds of matters.

[01:49:02]And in that special dispensation, a number of criteria are put up to allow the NDPP or the MPA not to prosecute.

[01:49:13]And these criteria include things such as whether the suspect has been subject to indoctrination, whether a prosecution will contribute to nation building.

[01:49:29]Three, um, the approach of SAPs NIA and the DOJ to the work of the task team in which they indicated that the NDPP had to wait for a recommendation from the director's general forum before he could make any decision in any TRC case.

[01:49:57]And finally, the fact that as we sit today, between 2003 and 2026, only seven or eight convictions have been secured in all that time.

[01:50:16]So in the light of that context, what is your response to the narrative that uh there was no undermining of the of these cases?

[01:50:27]It was simply the bad work of individual prosecutors.

[01:50:35]>> Well, I suppose that is the reason that we have uh today the hbee commission of inquiry and which amongst other things is seeking to establish whether there was political interference.

[01:50:55]I mean it's given why the TRC had been established amongst other things to bring closure to those families like our family to be to be satisfied that there has been you know a counter accountability.

[01:51:29]It's It's unacceptable that the only response that one gets for non prostitution of cases that ought to have been prosecuted or further investigations of those cases.

[01:51:55]to be placed now at the door of individual prosecutors.

[01:52:06]Um but we have it from somebody who was NDPP um who were explicitly stated that there had been political interference and in this respect I I stated as having been said to me in in the so-called service inquiry vi did not mean his words for speak about political interference if I never met Mark Adam and whoever else but in for it did come and indicate now I do not know to what extent and in what respect it could be said that executives who had said as I later learned from reports made uh to me by those who were assisting me in in the so-called service inquiry.

[01:53:30]Now when they say we were politically interfered with um and that is why my recommendation was that this commission of inquiry which has it's evolved from that should establish the veracity with the political interference.

[01:54:03]So I have it from a person who was an NDPP and from other sources that they were interfered with and and I think it is the duty of this commission to establish on the balance whether It is established that there was political interference.

[01:54:38]To simply say individual uh prosecutors did not do their work is disingenuous in my view.

[01:54:55]>> Thank you. And and just for the record, it's not just former NDPP because he reaches that conclusion. Uh there is evidence before this commission uh which is carrying out the work that that you have just outlined.

[01:55:13]Um acting NDPP Silus Ramita um SC um has also stated that um certain conduct amounted to political interference.

[01:55:28]um acting NDP uh Chiba has is on record not disputing the evidence of um a former NDPP picoli and of course we know from the Rodriguez case that uh the NPA admitted that it had been subject to interference And indeed, former NDPP Shame BTOY stated that um up until the end of her term of office as in January, uh that was the position of the MPA that it had been subject to interference in uh previous years.

[01:56:21]But in in in closing >> chair, if we may, if I could, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is the question that was being posed there?

[01:56:30]>> We are still getting there, Miss Moro.

[01:56:35]>> Thank you, chairperson. So, in in in in the light of um uh the statements of these former NDPPS and former acting NDPs, um how What what is your view to the the claim that is being pursued in particular by government parties to this commission um that the views of these individuals who were at the heart of the NPA should not be taken seriously?

[01:57:10]>> I disagree.

[01:57:12]>> Thank you.

[01:57:16]Then let's turn to um some concluding remarks. Now in your statement of page six of your bundle, I'm going to invite you if you wish uh by way of closing to read into the record paragraph 16-23.

[01:57:45]And then if you so wish, you may um add any closing words that you have.

[01:57:52]It's on page six.

[01:57:58]>> Um thank you very much commissioners.

[01:58:05]I have frequently gone on record stating that there has been a shameful lack of political will to deal with the issue of accountability for the aarted era victims of gross human rights violations.

[01:58:32]I fully endorse Archbishop Desmond Tutu's statement made in 2013 that the failure to prosecute those who failed to apply for am amnesty undermine those who did.

[01:59:02]The story is set out in Lukano Talata's founding affidavit as well as the supporting affidavits are rooted in South Africa's bitter and divided past.

[01:59:23]They make for difficult and painful reading.

[01:59:32]We as South Africans entered into a constitutional compact that we would grant perpetrators an opportunity to speak the truth and and full immunity from criminal prosecution and civil litigation.

[02:00:00]We made a solemn promise that those who were not amnesty or who spurned the process would face the consequences where their crimes were serious and evidence was available.

[02:00:23]Instead of cherishing the memories of those who died for our freedom and acting expeditiously to make good on our past promises, the post aarted state engage in various machinations to ensure that the bulk of the TRC cases would never see the light of day.

[02:00:59]In so doing, they treated the families as secondclass citizens not worthy of equal treatment under our law.

[02:01:15]This must stand as one of the most shameful periods in South Africa's history.

[02:01:24]Most of the TRC cases cannot be revived.

[02:01:30]Suspects and witnesses have died.

[02:01:35]Truth, justice, and closure have forever been denied to the families, their communities, and the nation.

[02:01:51]In the few prosecutions and inquests that can proceed, they do so in a severity diminished way.

[02:02:06]in a severely diminished way since most persons of interest have passed on particularly high ranking offenders.

[02:02:22]The suppression of the TRC cases stands as terrible stain on South Africa on South Africa's postarted history.

[02:02:38]It is in my view unforgivable.

[02:02:47]The families and communities are entitled and law and as a moral imperative to an independent commission of inquiry.

[02:03:08]>> Thank you and you you you can stop there be be before we close. Is there anything that you would wish to add, >> madame commissioner and commissioners?

[02:03:26]And I will again recall the book that I indicated which was entitled unfinished business.

[02:03:45]South Africa are parted in truth.

[02:03:54]And as early as 2001 when this soft copy was published, the late Terry Bell, the co-author with me on this book, published this book 2001. This is what we say.

[02:04:27]And I quote, "The price of this unfinished business is of course once again paid by those who have already suffered horribly.

[02:04:48]Many relatives of the missing and the murdered.

[02:04:54]Prominent among them, the big reo slo as madaka.

[02:05:14]And I can add now the families of the kalatas of the kadok for but in the book we took it only up to madaga.

[02:05:25]Those families are still seeking if not justice at least a greater approximation of the truth.

[02:05:40]There has been no closure for them.

[02:05:46]The United Nation declared apartate as a crime against humanity.

[02:05:56]It was a system that robbed generations of people not only of their dreams but of their ability to dream.

[02:06:08]Aarted was a complex system in which social engineers, architects and planners set out deliberately to educationally and emotionally the majority of the population.

[02:06:25]In pursuit of this goal with a total and callous disregard for any human rights, they condemned millions of people to a slow death through malnutrition and preventable disease. To police this system, another section of the population was infused with the poison of racism.

[02:06:48]This was systematically done through formal schooling that deliberately manipulated history. It was aimed to and to a wide extent succeeded in providing the managerial and supervisory ranks on one hand and the folder for the factories, mines and farms on the other.

[02:07:09]Here lies some of the massive amount of unfinished visit left by the TRC.

[02:07:16]It is not a healthy legacy.

[02:07:19]The process may have been aided by South Africa's transision to liberal democracy, but by not digging too deep.

[02:07:28]The TRC has in the long run bequay the poisoned chalice until this poisoned past is faced.

[02:07:38]There will be no real transformation.

[02:07:41]That TRC process went some of the way toward uncovering the truth, but it bolt at exposing the horrifying extent of their aarted system and bringing to book the most senior perpetrators of the human rights abuses it promoted, the politicians and the generals.

[02:08:02]The TRC deputy chairman, the late Alex Boren, claimed that there was neither the time nor the resources to sniff out informers. The truth is that there was no political will to do so. The time exists, the resources could be found, the guilty are still there, many still in possessions of enormous power. This book and this is in 2001 has shown that there is still a huge amount of evidence to be uncovered.

[02:08:38]Some of the documentation is also hoarded as a form of insurance or even blackmail by a number of our party criminals who escaped scot-free.

[02:08:51]The fact that these issues have not been faced has enabled the myth of a fairy tale transition in South Africa to be widely disseminated across the world.

[02:09:06]Yet how long will this last?

[02:09:10]If the past is not dealt with, it will return to haunt us.

[02:09:19]Thank you.

[02:09:21]>> Thank you TZA.

[02:09:25]On behalf of the families and the Kalata group, we want to thank you for your long service to South Africa and your unrelenting fight for justice.

[02:09:36]No further questions. Chairperson.

[02:09:37]>> Thank you, Mr. Vani.

[02:09:41]>> Miss Moroca.

[02:09:45]>> Thank you, Chair.

[02:09:47]Good morning to Mr. Zabza.

[02:09:52]>> It's afternoon.

[02:09:53]>> Oh, is it good?

[02:09:57]>> Indeed, chair.

[02:09:59]We have no questions for clarification, but we do chair reserve the the right to apply to cross-examine Mr. >> Thank you, Mr. Profy.

[02:10:27]Thank you ch um equally no clarification questions.

[02:10:32]>> Thank you Meleni.

[02:10:37]>> Thank you chair. No clarification questions. Thank you Mr. Um, thank you chair. I also have no clarification questions for >> Thank you, >> Mr. Sim. Is it Mr. Sony?

[02:10:56]>> Thank you, chair. We have no clarification questions from Mr. Vani.

[02:11:12]Um um Mr. Uh interessa at um page six of your statement 5.5 um you deal with and uh it reads um I submitted my report to the NPA in June 2023 and it was released in February 2024 and then it goes on you were asked or you then remarked that you were tempted to release it.

[02:11:57]Uh I was tempted to ask you why didn't you and it crossed my mind that uh something similar would have happened with some um of the older generations.

[02:12:17]You remember tiger by the tale by judge most the information scandal that when I think it was uh president pva who had not released the report he did so didn't you think that that gave you um some precedent um the other one I don't want to mention because uh the chairperson would fire me retrospectively if I refer to um her report with DCJ Musk in the Zimbabwe election debacle.

[02:13:06]But would you commend >> the chair has not heard me?

[02:13:19]Um, I I have to to say on reflection, but also at the time I I was especially in in light of the findings that I had made from the information that had been put before me by those who came to the so-called Zaza inquiry. I I on the one hand the brief had come to me from the NPA um and the NPA had not said when you return the brief and whatever report will be as a consequence of the brief we had given to you uh you can then make it available to the media.

[02:14:16]So I it seems to me that I I was then bound by the fact that my principal, the person who had instructed me, you know, um was not expecting me in presenting to them my report that I would make it available for publication.

[02:14:46]But I can indicate to you uh commissioner that I then said what is in this report is in the public interest.

[02:15:02]You you need to make it public because it is exactly that in the public interest.

[02:15:15]And the late Tikok uh who was in the NPA also I I I kept on saying to him, you know, Mr. That report needs to see the light of day.

[02:15:38]I can't claim credit for it having been published, but I I knew that if it was not published for reasons that could not be made clear to me, I was going to to do what I felt was in the public interest.

[02:16:04]It would never have been unpublished.

[02:16:08]That I was clear about.

[02:16:10]But I followed what I considered was protocol and the correct thing to do to your principal or to the best to your client in the form of the NP. I don't know if that that answers your question commission.

[02:16:28]>> Thank you very much. Thank you chair.

[02:16:31]>> Thank you.

[02:16:33]Mr. Vani >> chair, no further questions from our side.

[02:16:38]>> Thank you.

[02:16:40]Advocate, I must express our profound profound gratitude for you having agreed to come and give evidence in person before this commission given your health conditions.

[02:16:59]We truly appreciate it.

[02:17:02]H for now you are excused as a witness but as you have heard there might be a need for you to be recalled for crossexamination.

[02:17:13]We thank you sir.

[02:17:15]>> I'll still be alive. I can tell you >> you bet.

[02:17:22]>> Thank you.

[02:17:23]>> Thank you madam chair.

[02:17:25]>> Thank you. Um Mr. M if I may get directions before we excuse the advocate in ZZA uh chair uh for the formal hearings >> on the other mic as well. Um Essie thank you >> for the formal hearings. Uh there is nothing more for the day and uh we know tomorrow is said yes known again.

[02:18:00]Uh we are back on we are back on Tuesday. If the matter can stand down until then or postponed until then chair, >> which matter should stand down?

[02:18:14]>> The hearing.

[02:18:19]>> I thought you meant advocate Zabza's matter should stand down.

[02:18:26]When he has just been excused as a witness, what date is Tuesday?

[02:18:33]>> Uh 5 Yes.

[02:18:37]>> Yes. Thank you. These proceedings are agend 20 2026 at 10 hours. Thank you.