Stop Being The Nice Guy That Women Ignore & What To Do Instead- With Dr Robert Glover

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]Coming up on this week's episode of Turn Her On, we have the amazing Dr. Robert Glover, who I I have been wanting to have on this show for so long, and I'm so glad that he is here today to break down and explain Mr. a nice guy. How to stop being a nice guy. Why nice guys do not turn women on. And why amazing guys who understand their own value are always going to not only win but create attraction with all of the women around them. So, keep listening.

[00:00:32]>> You're welcome. And you know, before you started recording, you said you've been doing this for 22 years and talking to nice guys. And I thought, what took you so [ __ ] long to ask me to come on the show? What was that about? Come on.

[00:00:43]>> I don't know. You probably tell the guys all the time, go for what you want, right? Don't don't don't pre-reject yourself, right?

[00:00:51]>> It's true. You are absolutely right.

[00:00:52]Like I trust me, as I've been coaching men for the past 22 years about not being so nice to women, I've been coaching myself and this is one area and it's only specifically for you. Trust me, I ask for what I want in every other area of life.

[00:01:04]>> Okay. Just with me, though. Okay.

[00:01:05]>> This one I did not ask for, but when I saw you, you were on some other show, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I want to ask him to be on my show." I wrote to you and you said yes and I love it.

[00:01:15]>> Of course I did.

[00:01:16]>> Yeah. So you're here. You're awesome.

[00:01:17]But actually I want to introduce you to Morgan who is my amazing co.

[00:01:21]>> Hey Morgan. Morgan and I have been writing back and forth.

[00:01:24]>> We sure did. Hey Dr. Glover.

[00:01:26]>> Heygan.

[00:01:27]>> And we want to start off actually Morgan. Why don't you go with what we want to start off with? Because >> Morgan you going first.

[00:01:33]>> Uh yeah. I want to I want to jump in with you Dr. Glover and ask you a question that you might not be asked most often, which is how do you turn her on? The name of the show is turn her on.

[00:01:45]So, how do you what things do you do to turn your wife on and to turn yourself on? Why don't you share those with us?

[00:01:53]>> Yeah.

[00:01:53]>> Okay. This is this is not what your listeners will think is coming. Uh I'm myself. That's what turns my wife on.

[00:02:02]That's what turns women on. That's what seems to just naturally attract women. I just walk the planet being me. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I love what I do. I'm having a good time. And uh I don't seem to have any problem attracting women. And uh as my my jealous Latino wife often points out almost daily the women that are checking me out or trying to get my attention or coming on to me. So I'm not like doing something like, oh, if I do this that will get women's attention or turn them on. It just seems to be the way I carry my carry myself and and act. And um my people ask how I met my wife. And so I was just walking down the street in Porto Viarta and I heard a voice said, "Oh, Seenor want a massage." And I said, "No, oz mñana, not today. Maybe tomorrow." Kept walking, but I thought I liked your voice. I didn't even know what she looked like, but I liked your voice. Turn around, walked back, got a massage. We've been married for nine and a half years now.

[00:02:56]>> Yeah.

[00:02:57]>> And she tells me, you know, in Mexico they do that. They stand outside the businesses, try to get you to come in, stuff like that.

[00:03:03]>> They do that at the mall around the corner from me, too.

[00:03:05]>> Okay, cool. Uh, so, you know, it's it's not out of the ordinary. And she said she had been standing out there watching hundreds, you know, thousands of people walk by for years. And she said, never had the hand of God. Turned her head and said, "Look." And and she said she saw me walking. Her gay co- partner was standing right next to her, the guy, you know, he's he worked with her. and and he looks at her and says, "Do you see that?" And she goes, "He's mine." And and her gay friend said, "No, he's mine." And she said, "We'll find out."

[00:03:36]Um and so I love that.

[00:03:37]>> I just just walking down the street and uh now now I've been married. So, you know, >> love it. Well, actually, so I want to ask you like where does that come from?

[00:03:45]Right. So, where does the because you were saying it's not about doing anything. It's really just about being, right? And you are being you, but where does that come from? Because the phrase of like just be yourself, >> I know >> it's like a slap in the face. You're like, I am being myself. Myself is >> Yeah, that's not working. That's not good enough. You know, well, so here I I love that question because 30 years ago, 35 years ago, I would have said the same thing. Well, you know, I'm I'm nice, you know, I treat women well. I'm different than the jerks. You know, how come that doesn't work? How come women aren't attracted to me? I must just not be good-looking enough or or, you know, don't have enough hair or or whatever, you know, >> money, whatever it is. Yeah, whatever it is, we all think up a story that fits our self-limiting beliefs as to why we're not being successful. And and the truth of the matter is in terms of being yourself, and we can we can kind of dig into that a little bit.

[00:04:39]>> I think the things that have contributed to me just being myself, number one is years ago, I landed in some safe places and I just started revealing myself. I started talking about things I'd never talked with anybody about. I started got into therapy. I was in a 12step group and then a men's group.

[00:04:56]>> And I think there's tremendous power in letting go of what I call toxic shame.

[00:05:01]Shame's an internalized emotional belief that I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable, not attractive, whatever it may be. And if we're walking around with that unconscious shame that I'm not good enough, well, we're not going to let people see the real us. We're we're we're going to let them see a mask, a facade, a pseudo us. And that's what the nice guy is. The nice guy's trying to become what he thinks other people want him to be and hiding anything that he thinks might get a negative reaction.

[00:05:30]But ironically, the stuff we hide and repress, like our thoughts, our feelings, our our sexuality, our our kink, our dark side, that's the [ __ ] that turns women on without us having to do anything. When we're hiding that that stuff away, well, we're we're invisible.

[00:05:46]We're vanilla, you know? We're not anything. So, so I think number one is is just releasing that shame. Another piece about is I started spending a lot of time with men, connecting with men, getting a lot of my needs met around men. So, when it comes to women, I I don't need a woman. I really don't. I I I like having a woman in my life, but because I don't need a woman and I'm not chasing them and I'm not trying to get them to like me, want me, pay attention to me, I've got what the women want.

[00:06:16]They come to me. I'm not chasing women.

[00:06:18]I'm not picking up on women. I'm not hitting on women. And that's just such a a powerful reversal of so many men is for many men, well, the woman's got what I want, but you know, I want I want the ego, you know, of her being on my arm or, you know, I want a sex partner or she's hot or she's this. So, the men are chasing the women and the women are now the alpha and the guy's the beta. The woman's the decider. But what if you don't need women? What if what if you got your needs met and you feel good about yourself and you're living with purpose and passion? You're just walking the planet and the women are going, "Who is that guy? What?" And and you're not even thinking why you're attracted to him. You may say, "Well, he's got great hands or kind eyes or kissable lips or, you know, I hear those things." But that's not really what it is. It there's just something about my energy that women go, I want to be close to that. I want that.

[00:07:08]>> I want a piece of that. That's exactly what they're experiencing. I do want to ask another question on that's on the flip side of that. So why do women have this negative like I call it biological reaction because it's something that we can't control. It's primal. Like why do we have such an adversity towards guys who are I'm putting air quotes of nice because it's not really nice behavior weak and weak behavior. So why why like it actually angers me when a man is this nice guy to a point where I want to walk all over him and kind of treat him like crap >> and I'm a nice person like a real nice person without >> air but but yeah that it brings that out in you know there's probably at least three things contributing to that one of them you're right it is biological it's evolutionary women have never felt safe walking the planet I mean you go back 100 thousand years million years women have always and vulnerable, not as fast, not as strong, you you're pregnant, you're carrying a baby, you you all kinds of things that are threats to you.

[00:08:10]Even go back a few years with hashtagme too. That was women's way of saying we don't feel safe, right? I I I I tell men, you know, do you feel safe walking down your street in the daytime? Sure.

[00:08:21]You feel safe in the night time? Yeah, usually. And I go, women don't feel safe walking down their own street in the daytime. They don't know who's going to approach them. They don't know who's watching them. They don't know who's got an agenda. So there's that thing about feeling less safe. And so from an evolutionary point of view, women have always looked to the men to be the provider and protector. You need strength. You need you need someone that can go out and kill the wild animal that can feed the tribe. And even though you you can, you know, you have your own degree, you have your own job. You you buy your own car. You can buy your own house. You can open your own door. You can do all that stuff. Of course you can. But there's still something biological that you don't want to have to kill the cockroach. You don't want to have to get up in the middle of the night and check out what was that sound.

[00:09:06]You know, you can, but it just feels safer if the guy goes, "I got this. I got it." So, number one, when the guy wants you to kill the cockroach or you to make the plans or you to make the decisions, you don't want to do that.

[00:09:19]You You're in charge of so many things in your life all day long. And when the guy goes, "What do you want to do? Do you want to do this?" Whatever. It doesn't matter to me. Whatever. And you're going [ __ ] make a decision so I don't have to.

[00:09:31]>> What are you knew for? Exactly. I can do a >> Why do I need you for that if you're not going to at least make a decision at least. So I think that there there's that one part of it. Also with the nice guys, there's also this neediness. We're we're operating from covert contracts where we're doing things for you so you'll do something back. And you also know that. You know there's strings attached to the niceness. You just don't know what. You don't know when it's going to come back on you. when all of a sudden he's going to throw a fit or powder withdraw or or even get abusive with you because hey, I did all this for you and you haven't done X, Y, or Z back. So, there's just so many warning signs to women that, you know, one woman wrote me an email a while back. And, you know, I I I think she was right about this. She said the indirectness of the nice guy, almost the grooming behavior of the nice guy feels predatory. is what predators do. They groom you. They set you up. They they they hold back, you know, their true agenda and then all of a sudden they they spring it on you and you go, "Well, I didn't see that coming." And so there's so really so many reasons. You you you want to be with a good guy. You want to be with a guy who tells you the truth. You want to be with a guy you can trust. You want to be with a guy who, you know, treats you and your family and your friends with respect, who treats his mother with respect. But you don't want to be with a guy who lets his mother walk on him or lets other people walk on him or hides his sexual agenda and pretends like, "Oh, no. I I don't I don't I don't want to see you naked." When of course he does. There's only one reason he's talking to you. He wants to see you naked.

[00:11:07]>> You know that.

[00:11:08]>> Yeah. Well, so what do you think? We had a we had a >> conver Morgan's over there going.

[00:11:14]Sorry. I I'm too aggressive. So you go get it.

[00:11:17]>> It's cool. I know I'm being too nice. Uh yeah. So nice.

[00:11:21]>> Well, so I hear this term nice guy and I'm not coming from the dating expertise space, but I hear the term nice guy and it just kind of makes me want to roll my eyes because like is this a true? Like how do we know there's a nice guy phenomenon? I just kind of want to dial it back a little bit. Like what problem are you really observing? And then when you say nice guy, what specific behaviors are you talking about? Because nice always is like a is just like a non word to me. And maybe that's what you mean. Maybe when you say nice it means neutral. So, you know, what what exactly do you mean by nice guy and how do we know that they're everywhere?

[00:11:53]>> Okay. Um, number one, younger generation would call them simps. Uh, is that passively pleasing guy? Did that that strike home? I get a little bit closer.

[00:12:03]>> No, that's right on. I know that one.

[00:12:05]Yeah.

[00:12:06]>> Okay. You know, simps. So, and it's a nice guy. It's a codependent man. and codependent people. Another term for codependency is borrowed functioning, which means I only have value or identity from the things around me or or the people in my life. So if I feel valuable because I do nice things for people. I give people things. I I I try to fix things for them. That gives me a sense of value and identity, but it's it's not my value. It's not my identity, so it's borrowed. Or I I need a pretty woman in my life to feel like I've got value. or I I you know I I need >> you can't really control as well.

[00:12:43]They're >> it's all things we can't control. You know I I my my dog's lying at my feet right now. I've got this six-year-old pitbull Nala that she's just the best dog. Everybody she thinks everybody comes to the house comes to love on her.

[00:12:54]We go places with Nala and everybody wants to pet Nala. And so you know I get value and identity because oh people love my dog. Okay, but that's not me.

[00:13:02]And what happens when my dog goes away?

[00:13:05]And so it's called borrowed functioning because we need this thing outside of ourselves. And guys might even get it from being smart or having money or being successful, but it's still not them. I'm, you know, I'm still bringing it back to it's not you. It's something you're identifying with. I call it an attachment. Is something I'm attached to that thing is giving me value. And and those things, as you said, uh, Marty, they can go away and and they're not really real. They're not really us. And and going back to that thing of being oursel and Morgan to also to answer your question, the problem with a nice guy is he's not being himself. Now when a guy says, "Well, just being me doesn't seem to attract women." I say, "How many people do you let see the real you? How many people know how much porn you look at? How many people know that you're in debt? How many people know how critical and judgmental you are? How many people know your dark side? Do you know your dark side? Do you even let yourself see the real you? And so that goes back to the piece I was talking about years ago.

[00:14:08]When I started getting into when I got into therapy, got in 12step group, men's groups, I started revealing all these things and and it let out these things that I thought was me, but they're not.

[00:14:20]Right? And it let me just be me. And I I I'm I'm People will say to me, Robert, I love how honest you are, how authentic you are, how straightforward you are, how real you are. People would not have accused me of any of those things 35 years ago. And 35 years ago, if I did attract women, I probably didn't notice because I didn't know what to look for or I didn't believe that they would be interested in me. But but now I know there's that authenticity about me. And it's not like that I go walking around, hey everybody, here's my dark side. But I'm comfortable with all aspects of me.

[00:14:54]I've integrated those dark sides with the the good parts of me. And and and I'm really comfortable with them. And there's a lot of people in my life that that that that they've seen both. So the problem Morgan, back to your question with the nice guy is he's hiding all of that. So he's got to be quote nice. And like I said, the nice guys are trying to become what they think other people want to be. So I'll agree with you. I'll do the things you want to do. I, you know, if I say something and you nod and smile, I'll keep doing that over and over again. Um, but if I do something that you kind of question or you withdraw from, oh, I better not do that anymore. So, you don't know what's real.

[00:15:32]Now, a real man can be generous and kind and giving, but there's no strings attached to it. He's not trying to do it to win approval. He he can also be dickish and and opinionated and and critical, but that's that's still just him, right? It's part of who he is, and he can own it. He goes, "Yeah, I can be a real dick. I can be really critical. I I I I can be hurtful. I know all those things about me. And and so because I know them, they're not seeping out in ways that hurt people in direct ways.

[00:16:03]And if I do hurt somebody, I'm pretty good at taking ownership of that. I go, "Okay, I can see why that hurt as my bad." Or if I realize it wasn't my bad, I go, "Okay, I hear you, but you know, it wasn't my bad." Yes.

[00:16:16]>> Exactly.

[00:16:18]>> So So, so it's the ability to really be, again, going back, be you and own all of you. Nice guys are only letting you see a little bit of a sliver of themselves and and so again, you don't know what else is there. And are there a lot of guys like that? I think there's a Well, my No More Mr. Nice Guy has been out about 25 years now. And my royalty checks, annual royalties have been six figures for a number of years, and they keep getting bigger every year. So, the book keeps selling, which is really rare for a self-help book. Most don't last more than just a few years. And and and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger every year. So I think there there either are more and more nice guys coming into the world and or you know with with internet, social media, word of mouth, more and more people are recommending the book to people that they know and I hear that from people all the time. I just got a message from a guy yesterday that a woman I was talking to you know she'd read my book and her her new boyfriend has read my book and he sent me a message yesterday saying I just bought your book for my best friend. So you know it just people people know a nice guy so here you need this book. you need this book.

[00:17:22]>> So, let me ask you, Morgan, are you more attracted to the bad boys? Is that more your tendency?

[00:17:28]>> You know what's funny is I don't think I am. And I think I think that has something to do with my own people pleasing uh behaviors. Like I I've always identified as a a people pleaser, but then when I And so something I'm trying to work on, you know, I'm trying to be more attracted to people.

[00:17:44]>> I know a really good book that could help that.

[00:17:46]>> Yeah, I know. For sure. I know. I'm think I'm >> Women tell me all the time they love the book. Yeah, women women read it. They love it.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah. And you know, I think it >> this is not this is not just a male thing. This is across the the board.

[00:17:57]>> Oh, yeah. Codependency.

[00:17:59]The reason why I didn't call it codependency and no more Mr. Nice Guy is the term grew out of addiction studies.

[00:18:05]It was applied to a person addicted to an addict, basically trying to manage their life. And that was usually women.

[00:18:11]So it used to be we just thought of codependency as something in women. And when I wrote no more Mr. Nice Guy, nobody had ever addressed codependency in men. So I didn't use the term because I didn't want people to come in with preconceived ideas but but it is nice guy syndrome is codependency and yes a lot of women are codependent as well.

[00:18:29]>> Yeah Dr. Glover I was it takes a long time to learn from dependent or sorry independent >> and I was going to ask you Dr. Glover and if you're not comfortable with it let us know but like which I come from >> do you think you can make do you think you can make me uncomfortable?

[00:18:44]>> I don't know we'll see. Uh so I I come from 12 steps too. I'm four years sober and I work the steps and everything. So, you mentioned 12step and I do think >> working the steps helped me identify that I didn't have a lot of an identity and and drinking and partying and stuff was like a big part of that. And so, I'm curious like did you come from Kota? Is that where a lot of this comes from or what 12step?

[00:19:06]>> Actually, I started out in uh Sexaholics Anonymous. I I was married to my second wife. uh I had acted out and she found out about a year later and she said, "You need help and if you don't, you know, if you don't go get help, I'm gonna leave you." Which I'm so grateful for that. Um and so I went to therapy thinking, "How can I find I want to find out why me being a nice guy doesn't make my wife appreciate me and want to have more sex with me, right? And I because she told me I was a sex addict, I landed I I found a sex addict's group. And I quickly found out I wasn't having enough sex to be a sex addict. But it was my first men's group because it was all guys, you know, about eight or nine guys. Met like at 6:00 a.m. And these guys, they had gnarly [ __ ] going on in their lives. I mean, they they they were in trouble with the system, with the law, right? I I I just was pestering my wife for sex. And so, but that's where I started opening up about me and began revealing me and because it was the first safe place I'd ever been. I grew up in a fundamental Christian church.

[00:20:11]Um, I grew up during the angry feminism of the 60s and 70s that every man's a rapist and erections a sign of aggression. My mother told me as a boy that she was raising me to be different from my father. So, I I I you know, I was just used to keeping everything in, right? There wasn't a real me out there.

[00:20:29]So the 12 steps for me was that first safe place to and I'm sure you felt the same thing. You just feel safe. You share something that you just go, "Oh, I know when I share this everybody's going to be disgusted with me and think I'm a horrible person and and and the only reaction you get is thanks for sharing, Morgan." You know, thanks for sharing, Robert. You know, that's that's all you get. And and so for me, it was that place where I felt safe enough to begin to risk to open up and share all of me.

[00:20:57]And then like I said, I got into therapy. I then got into a men's group that was focused on sexual shame. And when I split with that wife probably 12 years after that, I got back in in 12step programs going to mainly Sex Addicts Anonymous.

[00:21:13]>> Most realistically, I probably most qualified for Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous um or KOD. Um >> because I wasn't a sex addict. I I very much am an approval and validation addict. For me, when I acted out, it wasn't about the sex. It was about a woman approving of me and wanting to have sex with me. So, who am I to say no, right? So, cuz, hey, I got approval from a woman.

[00:21:37]>> So, but what I found for me in sex and love addicts, there was too much love addiction going on all the time. Just, you know, a lot of people draping themselves on each other. I missed you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Can we be sober here? Um, so for me, the Sex Addicts Anonymous was just guys except for this one group I went to usually had about 40 guys in it, one woman. And I'm thinking, what's her gig, you know? So, but yeah.

[00:22:03]Uhoh. Uhoh.

[00:22:04]>> And I will say, uh, that's that's awesome to hear you say that because for me, I joined women's meetings when I first got sober, and it was such a game changer cuz just having that space where you're around women and men aren't a factor, and you can just focus on like what you need to work on is so important. And I will say I joined, you know, one of Mar's inner circle client calls a few weeks ago and it my first thought it was it felt like a meeting.

[00:22:28]It was like eight or nine guys that are in her program that all got to like share and discuss and help each other.

[00:22:35]Like it literally felt identical to a a 12step kind of meeting and super valuable. So she's she's giving that space for a lot of guys.

[00:22:43]>> Great. Have you read or listened to All the Way to the River?

[00:22:45]>> No.

[00:22:46]>> No.

[00:22:47]>> Okay. Um you guys have to help me here.

[00:22:49]For some reason, her name's going blank, but she wrote Eat, Love, Pray. Elizabeth Gilbert.

[00:22:53]>> Okay.

[00:22:54]>> Elizabeth Gilbert, this book, it just came out this year, and I listened to it on audio and she reads it is amazing. It is her memoir, her story of an addictive codependent relationship with a woman and then her pathway of recovery through sex and love addicts and and it is very pro 12step and it's very spiritual and it's just it just it tells it all. So I I I highly recommend I had the men in my men's program listen to it and even though it was a little bit of a flavor where it's you know from a woman kind of pointed at women but you know about 85 to 90% of it didn't matter if you're a guy or or or a woman and so I I highly recommend the book all the way to all the way to the river >> by Elizabeth Gilbert.

[00:23:41]>> Okay I have two I have two questions actually bas like in reaction to the things that you said.

[00:23:45]>> Okay Morgan that's all the questions for you for a little bit.

[00:23:49]Marie said is her podcast. She's got two questions.

[00:23:51]>> Go ahead, girl.

[00:23:52]>> No, I love I love that she's asking these questions because I think it's so great. We we're two different brains, which I think really makes it a a good show for the guys listening. But so I wanted to ask >> while So once your wife said for you to go to this space for love addiction and for sex addiction, sorry, for sex addiction. Did you start to notice that her reaction to you shifted as you opened up more during these sessions with these other guys? Like as you were revealing more, releasing shame, did you find that you were less driven towards sex and she was more driven towards you?

[00:24:29]>> No. That's why I left about 12 years later. It didn't change a goddamn thing in the relationship. But but that's not completely true. She and I did a ton of therapy. Um, she she loved going to therapy and we did a I did a lot. I went to this men's group five or six years. I wrote No More Mr. Nice Guy while I was in that that men's group. Uh, I I did a lot of my own therapy. She did a lot of therapy. We did couples therapy. And we just got to a point where two things.

[00:24:59]Number one, no, she never would acknowledge or validate, Robert, I see the changes in you, Robert. I like these changes, Robert. I can trust you. I feel safer with you. I want to open more to you. No, none of that changed. And and okay, you know, I wasn't doing it to get that. It became my own path because this is what what I need to do.

[00:25:21]>> Um now actually two thing some one thing that I did twice probably changed the dynamic in our relationship as much as anything and this will take us down a little bit other pathway. So keep your other question.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. But while in therapy at two different times a few years apart, I did a six-month sexual moratorum where I just took sex of all forms off the table. Did not pursue her for sex. I I I never was like a big-time masturbator or porn or anything like that. But so for 6 months, no sex and she could do whatever she wanted to do. But you know you know the most we could do is you know a friendly hug and a kiss goodbye. That that was it. No more than that. And that was so powerful me powerful because the two different times I did it probably had different things I was working on.

[00:26:12]But what they did for me that were really powerful is it reclaimed the key to my sexuality. See, you know, in I guess typically a monogous relationship, it kind of and monogamy basically says, okay, only you get access to my genitals, so I I'm giving you control of everything else in my life as well. Now, theoretically, it doesn't have to be that way, but that's kind of how it tends to go.

[00:26:33]>> And so, it let me reclaim the keys to not only my sexuality, but my life.

[00:26:38]>> And and in terms of me being a people pleaser, nice guys often will spend a lot of time trying to, you know, again going back to groom their partner to get them into to a good mood to have sex.

[00:26:49]Now, I love I love David Da. I heard him say one time, for for women, drama is foreplay. So, you know, as a nice guy, I think, well, she's got to be in a good mood or she won't want to have sex later on. But what I've come to find out kind of a woman's already, you know, a little bit riled up. Well, you know, she's ready to go, right? She's she's actually available. That that's a woman's way of saying, "Let's go deeper." You know, I don't want this surface stuff. So, because I wasn't trying I I I didn't have I call it I wasn't maintaining the possibility of availability, i.e. trying to keep her in a good mood so we could have sex later. I got to where I lovingly didn't give a [ __ ] if she was mad at me, in a bad mood, you know, being critical of me. It just didn't matter because what the [ __ ] We're not going to [ __ ] later on anyway. So, and so that went a long way for me reclaiming my sense of self and my identity. And again, and it reclaimed the keys to my sexuality. Uh, no woman holds the keys to my sexuality. They're mine right now. I that lets me be the chooser and the decider. No, you know, near the end of of my second marriage, we were in therapy. We were in a therapy session with our therapist who was an older woman. And um we we'd gone years really with with virtually no sex. And I I just said in that therapy session to both my second wife and my therapist, I said, "I am going to have sex. Just because you," pointing to my then wife, don't want to have sex, doesn't mean I shouldn't have sex. It's like saying, you know, you can't talk to anybody else but me, but I'm not going to talk to you. And monogamy implies availability.

[00:28:25]And you know, I kept trying to do it right so she would finally say, "Okay, you you've gotten better. I'm I'm going to open up and have sex with you now."

[00:28:32]And so when I said, "I'm going to have sex. I'm going to walk through open doors of opportunity. My preference is it be with you, but I am going to have sex." I said, "I won't get emotionally involved with anybody, but you just need to know that just cuz you don't want to have sex doesn't mean I'm not going to."

[00:28:46]And both my then wife and the the female therapist both nodded their head because how can you argue with that logic, right? She didn't want to have sex with me, but that doesn't mean I I shouldn't be having sex. I mean, why why does she have control?

[00:28:57]>> She didn't want to have sex with you.

[00:28:58]Was what like what were her reasons for not wanting to have sex with you?

[00:29:01]>> Honestly, without psychoanalyzing her on your podcast, um >> I don't know.

[00:29:08]>> You don't know?

[00:29:09]>> I don't know. Uh I can guess, but they're just my guesses. Um, >> I would think she would be revealing it to you quite often about the reasons why she didn't want to have sex with you.

[00:29:18]>> Yeah. And again, you know, I think I'll leave her business off the podcast, but but I I've got my theory about it and and you know, it's just my theory, but the bottom line was it doesn't matter.

[00:29:31]It doesn't matter. The bottom line was, am I going to take accountability and responsibility for my life? And if I want to be in a relationship with somebody who chooses me, who desires me, who's open to me, my my wife, who I've been married to for nine and a half years now, she's told me multiple times, I'll never say no to you for sex. And she says, I I I'll even have sex if I'm mad at you cuz I'm never mad at your [ __ ] And you know, so like this isn't a woman who's going to and and she's been as wounded as any woman I've ever been with. She's had her share of abuse and trauma in life, but she loves sex. She loves sex with me and and you know she's the one pursuing me for for sex on a more regular >> bas and being with her because you're you're you're past this phase of being a nice guy which is probably who you were or you've even said you were with your ex-wife. You were nicer, right? you were >> and and I can understand >> you were playing out that role and that's >> and if she didn't trust me or if I didn't have the fierceness for her to you know want to now she would used to tell me um about halfway through the marriage when I really just started kind of growing into my own I started taking road trips with my buddies we'd go watch baseball games around the country and just jump on an airplane and go to a ballpark and you know hang out for two three four days and when I would come back from those trips maybe partly because I've been with guys maybe partly because I'd just been away. She would even say, "I'm a lot more attracted to you when you come back." So, I'm sure there were factors I was bringing to that relationship, factors she was bringing, but you know what? I'll go I'll quote David data again of choose a woman who chooses you.

[00:31:08]>> So many men are choosing women who have never chosen them andor maybe chose them 12 years ago, but after the second kid was born, they quit choosing them. And I I just I don't chase women anymore. You know, when when I was a single guy and going, you know, I went through what I call my integrated manhore phase where I said yes to every sexual opportunity that came. I I I do have to kind of take that back. There were a couple married women I said no to and several gay guys I said no to, but other than that, I said yes to a lot of sexual opportunities and just just walk through the open door. So, I've not chased women. I've not tried to get women to have sex with me. The the way I put it is they've got to show up wet because, you know, I'm I'm not going to work it.

[00:31:53]They they they they can come to me and and and they do. The the feminine, as I'll put it, women, dogs, cats, babies, opportunity, adventure, shows up wet for the man who again, who's comfortable in his own skin, who's living with purpose, who's having a good time. The feminine wants to get close to that. Yeah. And and that if you just being yourself and really truly being yourself, right?

[00:32:18]Nothing hidden, nothing halfass, that's really attractive.

[00:32:22]>> I completely agree.

[00:32:24]>> I've never had a woman disagree with those statements ever.

[00:32:26]>> And but I think I think that's that's got to be tough for a guy who maybe doesn't know. And that's scary is like, okay, so be yourself. You know, take accountability and responsibility for your life. I love how you put that, but where to start? you know, how to discover what you like or don't like. I think guys have been, you know, maybe not trained how to know that about themselves.

[00:32:49]>> You're right. You're 100% right.

[00:32:51]>> Yeah, because that's piggybacking on the question I was going to ask.

[00:32:54]>> Okay. Thank back thank you, Marty. So, I I'm pretty good at weaving these together, so I'll keep us both. I I can weave them both in.

[00:33:00]>> No, no, but but part of what Morgan just said really leads into the question I was going to ask, so I think you'll answer both questions in the same time.

[00:33:08]Where does the nice guy training begin?

[00:33:12]Like why are so many guys nice in ch like you even said in childhood your mom made you like zip your lip and not express your own feelings. You had sexual shame. You had like like where is it where does it come from for most people for most >> guys? Okay. So we got two questions here and and we'll hold them both here. Yeah.

[00:33:29]So one, where does the nice guy come from? And where does he then find those safe places, safe people to begin reversing how he became a nice guy? So in No More Mr. Nice Guy, which I wrote about I finished writing about 30 years ago. Took me about six, seven years to write it, about three years to find a publisher. It's been out like I said about 25 years now. And in the first section or two of the book, I talk about where my my theory is of where nice guys come from. and and it probably comes from a number of things. I think one of the biggest one is there's no longer any form of what we'll call rights of pass passage or masculine initiation for men.

[00:34:06]Used to be go back about 10,000 years ago and more. You know, the the the the warriors, the hunters and gatherers of the tribe would come take the boy at about 8 10 12 years old away from the women and take him out and put him through rights of passage where he had to face his fear of death. He had to do something that scared the machers out of him. And they helped him through that process. And once he got through that process, they took him to a river, they bathed him. Now he's now in the community of men. He now had what the women wanted, right? He was now the hunter, the gatherer, the protector, the provider. And lesson as tribe began to dissolve around 10,000 years ago and we became more agrarian and kind of moved more to what we'll call patriarchal area. Um, still most boys grew up around their dads, their grandfather, their uncle, their cousins. They were out working on the farm. They were out, you know, they they were out around men. And it's only been probably since around World War I, World War II probably, that little boys never got taken out of the nursery of their mothers. And and so um they they you know, if you think about it, little boys have to please their mothers.

[00:35:13]>> Again, not just Well, little boys have to please their mothers. Um because we're totally completely dependent on them meeting our needs and now they you know now for the last however many years then you have a babysitter you go to preschool go to kindergarten elementary school I had I had one male teacher all women so even just getting from second to third grade not only learning your writing reading arithmetic but how to please a woman and at no point are the men coming taking the boys out of that nursery saying here's how you you enter into the the scary challenging world of the masculine. So, most boys grow up to be men nowadays, still in the nursery of seeking a woman's approval. I've I've got one of my No More Mr. Nice Guy certified coaches wrote a book called Sipping Fear, Pissing Confidence. It's it's about addiction. He says in there that a man doesn't mature until he quits seeking the approval of a woman.

[00:36:07]>> And that's so true because if if if you're still a little boy trying to get a woman's approval, what woman's going to be drawn to that? So, a big part of what I think's happened is, you know, when I started looking at nice guys, a lot of them said, "Well, my father either wasn't around, my parents were divorced, or he worked all the time, or he was an addict, or he was abusive, or I just never saw him, you know, so there wasn't the safe man around." And their mothers usually were either kind of cold and controlling or codependent and hooked up a hose to their little boy to take care of her needs. And maybe often she had a lot of issues towards men that she, you know, would project on on the little boy. Now, when I talk to a lot of men now who are millennials and Gen Z's, and my son will be 41 this summer, so he's a millennial, and he had a nice guy father. And what I hear from a lot of young men is they say, "I I had a nice guy father." And all that he taught me was how not to piss off my mother. Cuz that's what he was trying to do. Yeah.

[00:37:08]And and and so there's a lot of boys and now you throw in all the whole social media stuff, hashtagme too, uh toxic masculinity where the message has been constant now for a few years. Men are bad. Don't be like don't be like bad.

[00:37:24]But as we're being told, boys are being told don't be like the bad men. They're not given anything to replace it.

[00:37:30]>> Here are the men to be like. Exactly.

[00:37:31]>> Yeah. Here here is a positive thing. And we hear the women say, "Oh, we want a nice guy, but we see you keep chasing the jerks, the bad boys, the guy that cheated you on you in the past." And so it leaves men going, "Okay, what do I do?" So, you know what a lot of men do is they they they become the codependent, nice guy, passively pleasing. Let me make you happy so that maybe you'll let me see you naked.

[00:37:56]>> Or they just shut down. They just withdraw. They just stay in the nursery where there's no challenge. They're playing video games. They're surfing the internet and they get angry and they try to trump the women >> and they they get angry and that's what comes from the covert contracts. I did this for you, you know, I I I was a nice guy. You you you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Now we can justify being angry. Yeah. If you look up if you if you Google nice guy, if you Google nice guy, you'll see a lot of me. Um, and if you see blogs written by women, almost always the women are writing from it.

[00:38:33]Oh, I met this guy. He was such a nice guy. I was going through a hard time. He was there for me. He listened to me. And then when he wanted wanted me to be his girlfriend or wanted me to have sex and I go, "Oh, no. I didn't see you that way. You know, I I you were just my friend." Then his covert contracts are he's he's rageful. He's resentful. he lashes out, maybe physically abusive, maybe, you know, starts, you know, saying hurtful things, what, whatever.

[00:39:01]So, yeah, most women have experienced that of a guy they thought was just there because he was a nice guy, but the truth was he had another agenda. He wasn't he wasn't revealing. Yeah.

[00:39:12]>> Well, and then I think when the the I think some of the shine comes off of nice guys, and I'll just kind of speak, you know, from what I've heard and from the woman's perspective is like you might say nice guy, but then the other side of that is passive and lazy. You know, he's being passive to his wife and like letting her pick what to do, letting her manage the emotional labor of the household. He's not being he's being the nice cop with the kids, you know, and so he's he's being passive and lazy. and he can call it nice, but that those are maybe two different things sometimes.

[00:39:44]>> Well, let me say this, too, cuz we we've we've really been, you know, you know, take t taking a sharp shot at at the the the codependent, not so nice traits of nice guys. Here's the truth, or at least what I found. The majority of the men I've worked with, and I'd put me in this category, really are good guys. We're decent guys. We're we're we're not bad.

[00:40:05]We don't have evil intent. We don't have a a bad agenda. My my mother has said to a number of women I dated, she would say, "Bobby never did like conflict."

[00:40:15]And I and I'm and I'm going, "Yeah, who the [ __ ] likes conflict?" But the women I get with seem to um you know, they love I tell my wife all the time, "You love to fight." No, I don't. Yeah, you do. You love to fight.

[00:40:26]>> No, I don't.

[00:40:26]>> And and so that's my nature. Yeah. My nature is Can we just talk about this and resolve it? You know, you know, do do you have to stay clammed up and mad at me for two weeks? can we just kind of get through this? That's my nature. I'm not a I'm not a bad guy. Now, I was trying to be different from my father who who was selfish and moody and demanding, trying to be different than those bad men who only want one thing from women. But the truth is, my nice guy syndrome didn't make me a bad person. I I I'm I'm a decent human being. But it did lead to me not being particularly honest or transparent or authentic and giving to get which led to resentment and passive aggressiveness and even rage at times. So the truth is if we can strip away this false identity I that I have to get other people's approval and and hide anything. Come come back Morgan to to your part of the question. I I talk in no more Mr. Nice Guy. The first thing that is essential for nice guys doing their recovery work is to find safe people. Now, it can be a 12step group.

[00:41:35]It can be a men's group. It can be a therapist. It can be a coach. It can be a best friend. Can be a rabbi, a minister. And we have to find safe people to start revealing the things about us we don't want other people to know about us. Now, I've assisted in the last six weeks at like three different men's programs, and all of them at some point have had work where men had to step into a circle and said, "If what if you really knew me, you would know this about me." Or, "What I don't want you to know about me is this." Where where the men have to just share the stuff, you know, that we're scared to share. Like, Morgan, you understand that the stuff you shared in a 12step group and after you shared it, everybody looked at you with kind eyes and, you know, says, "Thanks for sharing." So, for nice guys to do their recovery work, it it's not a matter of, oh, I'll just quit being so nice or I'll quit giving so much or I'll quit being so generous or I'll I'll I'll get controlling. You know, it's not like going red pill on a woman and just, you know, say, all right, here's the way we do it. You know, it it really is as you release the shame and I'll add to that, begin to surround yourself with people who want to you help you get your needs met. Because what happens for a lot of nice guys, because we're not really good at filling our own bucket, we do a lot of giving to get. And so I'll give to you and then you'll get back to me.

[00:42:52]You'll read my mind, you get back to me.

[00:42:54]If you're surrounding yourself with people, resources that want to help you get your needs, they want to help you fill your bucket. Now, you're overflowing when you come into relationship with a woman. And again, the feminine is highly attractive to just that overflow and abundance. Now, if I'm an empty bucket and I'm trying to get you to approve of me, you're going to go like that. I mean, women tend to push away that kind of neediness. So, Morgan, if we can find these safe places and and you have to go you have to go looking for them. It's not so hard to find them like it was 30 years ago when I went looking. There's men's programs, there's men coaches, there's people like you all over the internet. So, I mean, and I mean, there there's probably some people out there that shouldn't be helping people, but there's a lot of good resources out there. So, I tell men, find that safe place and start revealing in that safe place the things that you don't want to reveal, the things you don't want to tell about you.

[00:43:51]And as you get comfortable in your own skin, you get comfortable with your own dark side, with your own impulses, with your own past bad behaviors, and that's you begin to release it and let that go.

[00:44:02]and your body becomes more relaxed and and and just the more you flow flows out of that and and again we'll go back to nice guy syndrome. It's just a mask that we've been wearing. So we didn't think we were good enough as we were. Once we start releasing shame and realizing I'm fine. I'm good. Not everybody's going to like me, but that's okay. I like me. And and so then I think you see the true person that was underneath that nice guy facade that what often wasn't so nice because of the covert contracts.

[00:44:32]>> Yeah.

[00:44:32]>> And you you realize what you were doing that was actually having negative impact on others and having negative impact on you and how it was kind of covert and sneaky. not kind of often very covert and you take accountability for it and you make amends where where necessary and and again you surround yourself I I have a men's group that I put together eight years ago and we talk to each other every other week on Zoom seven guys we've all been in there for eight years nobody's left yet we've one guy's father just died last weekend we've been through deaths of of family we've been through illness we've been through divorces we've been through children being born and and we support each other. I'm I'm still in men's programs.

[00:45:16]I go assist and lead my own men's programs where I'm still doing the work that I encourage men to do because it's never done. And so we men need our tribe. And and I know when I was dating, women would ask me, so do you have guy friends? And I always thought it was interesting when a woman asked me that.

[00:45:35]And I always saw that as a sign of that woman's intelligent cuz she knows that if a guy doesn't have good guy friendss in his life, he's probably going to be dependent on her >> to come fill his bucket up and meet and meet his needs. So again, as a marriage therapist for 40 years, I told men the best thing you can do for your marriage is have good same-sex friends. That's the foundation that you build a healthy relationship on. So, you're mainly, I think, talking to guys dating, but probably guys listen to you that are in a relationship.

[00:46:05]>> Yeah.

[00:46:05]>> And if you don't have good guy friendss in your life to to build that foundation to to support you, to hold you accountable, to love on you, to, you know, to just have a, you know, help you be you, you're going to either make a woman be all that for you and or you're going to hide your needs from the woman and come at her with these covert contracts. So again, I just keep preaching, guys. You need good guys in your life. And my wife knows that. She, you know, she misses the hell out of me.

[00:46:35]I I I was just gone for a week. I just got back home yesterday. And just for a week, she and Nala the dog, they both just miss the hell out of me. But she loves what I'm doing. She knows I'm working with men. She knows I'm also getting my bucket filled by being with men. I send her a lot of pictures. I send her one video when I gave a talk the other day. 40 guys. I went around the room. Everybody says, "Hola, Lupita.

[00:46:58]Ola Lupita." 40 guys, you know, you know, just saying, "I'm honoring you.

[00:47:02]Because of you, I can go do this work. I have your support and I know I'm going to come home to you. My bucket's going to be fuller. I'll overflow into your bucket." And and she knows that. I mean, a good woman knows that a man needs good men in his life.

[00:47:16]>> How often do you fall back into like nice guy habits or >> Every day is like every day. Um I I don't know if it's literally every day, >> but it happens. I >> It happens thing to hear. Like I remember when I would talk about uh confidence with guys and I'm like even the most confident person in the entire world has moments of lack of confidence.

[00:47:36]It doesn't confident all the time. So that that's actually really refreshing to hear.

[00:47:41]>> You know, I I I I I mentioned at this retreat I was at the other day. I said I had a thought and the thought was there's probably men who've read No More Mr. nice guy and who've done a more thorough recovery than I even have having written the book and worked with nice guys for the last 30 years. You know, I it still because I can see where it still comes up in me and mainly it comes up in nervous system kind of issues. My wife will get a look on her face, kind of a frown. I feel when she pulls away actually when we got home yesterday, you know, we both took a shower. We're lying on the bed. She's, you know, I got my arm around her. She's close to me and I feel I can hear her breath. I I I can feel her hand twitching a little bit. I go, she's got something. Her her her mind I I I can feel it in her. Now, a few years ago, earlier in our relationship, if I felt any of that, I'd get anxious and I'd get uptight. Uh-oh, there's something. I got to fix it. I got to find out. Now, I just kind of I let it be there. I didn't say a thing about it. Um, we we snuggled and uh then we went to the beach in the afternoon. We went and put our feet in the ocean and while our feet were in the ocean, she brought it up. I I knew it was in there somewhere. She brought it up. Has to do with um one of the several women in her gym where I go work out with her who seem to enjoy trying to get my attention while she's there. And and I can see it. They do. They're trying to get my attention. And um like I said, me just being me seems to draw attention.

[00:49:14]And so we're we're we're standing in the ocean, feet in the water, and she's telling me that and I could just hear it and say, "You're right. Those women do try to get my attention. I can see it."

[00:49:24]And um and they said, "Well, if you want to be, you know, with her, you can go be with her." And I just stay firm, stay solid with her and look at her. I said, >> "I got everything I need.

[00:49:34]>> I've chosen you." And I just stay calm with it. used to be those things, especially if you were through, got a look. I I I would I I would, you know, try to talk her down, talk her through, talk her over, talk her off the ledge, get her back to good. And if that didn't work and she doubled down on her projections, I might even get mad. I might store her out of the room. I might throw my car keys. And and it I'm still working on that. And you know what? That reaction has nothing to do with her.

[00:50:01]It's really old in my nervous system because it when it gets triggered, it feels like I'm gonna die. Like, if I don't fix this right now, there's death imminent now. Uh, she's not going to kill me. I mean, she she could she could I mean, she'd been a gym rat since she was 15. She can out squat me, out deadlift me, you know. She grew up in poverty in Guadalajara and Mexico. She's tough cooking.

[00:50:24]>> She's tough. You know, I ask people, "Who's stronger? Later I go, I can't believe you're even asking that question." Of course she is. She's the tough one. And I know she's not going to leave me. She actually has my initials tattooed on her front hips. Right. This woman isn't going anywhere and she's not going to kill me. She's not going to withhold sex from me. She's already told me that and I've tested it. She tells she's she's telling the truth. So it's really old anxiety states in me. Now what I tell guys is not maybe that our nice guy syndrome goes away 100%. Guys will say, "How long does this take?" And I'll go, "I'll let you know when I find out." Right?

[00:51:02]>> And and I've I've been working on this for 35 years.

[00:51:05]>> But what I do know is that I notice the triggers quicker. I I I can respond rather than reacting to them, get over it quicker, repair it faster, get back to good a lot quicker.

[00:51:19]>> And and you know, you know what to do and how to handle yourself. Like even by you stating before that sometimes I would dive into her emotions as well.

[00:51:26]And sometimes I'm unflapable, right?

[00:51:29]You've experienced the feeling of when you don't dive in the exact same way and how rewarding that can be. And when your nervous system is a bit off or you're stressed or you're tired, sometimes you get triggered and you you can't handle way. But experience of handling it well.

[00:51:43]>> And you women know when it's a good time to test.

[00:51:47]>> You know, I tell guys when they complain about women's [ __ ] test, I go, "Listen, it's not a [ __ ] test because she's being shitty. It's a [ __ ] test because she wants to see do you have your [ __ ] together? Yeah.

[00:51:58]>> Right. It's kind of like um you know, are you man enough to be my man? And so they're going to test you when you're the most vulnerable. You know the the analogy that I put is that going back to the you know women being security-seeking creatures and the men being the security system. We're like the castle, right? And she's inside the castle and the marauding horde, the rapists, the pillagers, they're all outside the castle coming for the castle. Now, there's a mode around it, and you know, you are the castle. But guess what? She's got to know where the castle is vulnerable. So, she's going to get a broomstick and start poking and poke in between the bricks and poke the door jambs and poke the window frames and and go looking for the weak spot, the vulnerable spot where the marauding horde might come through and rape and pillillage her. And guess what? while she's poking. If she finds a vulnerable spot, a weak spot, yeah, >> she she's going to poke at it a little more. She's going to poke at it a little more. Not because she's being mean, not because she's being a [ __ ] not because she wants to hurt us. She wants to know where where are your weaknesses and she wants us to know where our weaknesses are.

[00:53:10]>> And then so then, okay, there's where my work is.

[00:53:13]>> Explain it, but actually it's one of the parts that I dislike about myself the most. But you have to do it.

[00:53:20]>> You have to do it.

[00:53:20]>> And I'm aware of it and I can even speak to it while I'm doing it, which I feel like is more advanced than many women because I'm I'm hyper aware of what I'm doing to him. But I I I wish I didn't have that inner need to do that in those moments cuz I know that leads to potential chaos. Like in in the past in my relationship, that did not have a good outcome for us.

[00:53:46]>> Now it does. And we've learned to to handle it better. My husband's amazing because he continues to grow and learn how to handle me better and it better.

[00:53:56]>> Great.

[00:53:56]>> Why? I'm poking continuously, but I wish I could stop poking. Cuz I'm like, "It's good. It's good. Stop poking." And he's like, "Please stop poking me. It's been 20 years and I'm I've learned it already."

[00:54:05]>> Yeah. I I I got that lesson. But you know what? As a marriage therapist for years, I occasionally, cuz I can be a little dickish, um I occasionally would say to women, "Do you know that when you do that, it it is hurtful to your man?"

[00:54:21]>> Yes.

[00:54:21]>> Uh do you know that it's harming your relationship? And and they would often say, "Uh-huh. Yeah, I know." And then I would ask, "This is the dickish part.

[00:54:31]Then why do you do it?"

[00:54:32]>> Yeah.

[00:54:32]>> And you know what the answer I got 100% of the time? I don't know. I can't help myself. I can't help myself. And and that's I'm not being dismissive of women. You're sharing that right there.

[00:54:43]>> That's exactly how I feel, too.

[00:54:45]>> It's in it's in your nervous system. You want to know again, you can open your own door. You can buy your own car. You can buy your own security systems. You can do all of that, but in your epigenetic evolutionarily based nervous system, you want to know, >> can you can you trust him? Can you can you depend on him? Will he be there in the most stressful of times so you can let go?

[00:55:10]>> I I'll tell you a story. My my ex-wife who who again could be very chaotic and you know we we had our issues but but we also had a lot of good stuff. We did a lot of work together and she used to tell me things like you know I'm just a little girl making noise and when you get all like oh you know and you want to fix she goes I don't feel safe with that. Just let me be a little girl making noise. And she would say, "If I don't know you can stand up to me, how can I ever know you'll stand up for me?"

[00:55:37]>> And and you know, there I I I I couldn't argue with that. I saw the truth. And I remember there's one time, and this is probably towards the end of our marriage. We lived up above a golf course and and we had some friends over, I think a couple of other couples for a barbecue dinner. And all of us went down to the golf course on a Saturday evening, just, you know, get about dusk to just play a little mini baseball tournament. Now, my wife had never played golf before. She really didn't know what she was doing. And which is okay. There's nobody else on the golf course. But on the first hole, there's a guy, and I can't even remember what he's called, but he basically tells you, "Okay, play, you know, start." And and that just keeps everything moving. Okay.

[00:56:18]and he was an older guy and and so my wife got down there and we're with some other friends and she, you know, gets her ball teed up and she's, you know, starting trying to address the ball and this guy starts shouting at her, starts yelling at her from about 30 feet away, say, "Don't go yet. I I didn't tell you to go." And he's yelling at her and I could just see the shock in her nervous system. And without even thinking, I walked over to this guy and I got right in his face and and he's probably a good I was probably only about 40 at that time. He's 20, 30 years older than me.

[00:56:52]Right in his face and I said, "Listen, she has never played golf before. She doesn't know what she's doing. She's trying to do it right." And I said, "I expect you to make this a good experience for her." That's it. He He kind of relaxed. Okay. He went over, showed her how to hold the clubing, how to address the ball, how to do it. Just he he changed 180 degrees.

[00:57:17]>> Later on that night, she was crying. She said, "I've never felt so loved in my entire life."

[00:57:23]>> Yeah. And I'm I'm just trying to get the guy to quit being a dick to her. And but she'd never felt so loved because I stood up for her.

[00:57:31]>> Yep. And that's really what she wanted to know that she would I I was man enough to stand up to her and stand up for her and then she could feel safe to to to to be herself and trust me.

[00:57:43]>> But as you say, you know, you're you're you're going to check those door jambs and those the mortar and the bricks and Okay. Okay. Seems seems safe.

[00:57:51]>> Yeah, it seems right now.

[00:57:53]>> But but you know, 30 minutes later, 3 days later, there's still marauding horde out there. I better go check again. I you know, everything's fine.

[00:58:01]But let me go.

[00:58:03]>> When things are at their very best, when you guys are your happiest, when he's just being the most awesome dude in the world, you'll go, but I know there's a weak spot somewhere.

[00:58:12]>> I feel I feel validated, but also I feel validated because I'm I do do this, of course. But then I'm like, man, what if the roles were reversed and if guys were saying and doing this stuff to us? Like, it would be it would be tough. So, >> yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:27]>> Well, you know what? Let's celebrate the differences. Let's celebrate the unique ways that that women can be, the unique ways that men are. And you know, I get that this is not even a I don't know if popular topic is the right one, but you know, I in grad school in the ' 80s, I I was in child development courses where my feminist teacher said, "Little boys and little girls are born exactly the same. Pablo ras, blank slates. Gender is a social construct imposed on little boys and little girls." And you know they taught that if it was fact but actually there's absolutely no fact to it. All research shows that in general in general little boys and little girls we have similarities in how we develop but there's differences in how we develop. Even the diseases you females are vulnerable to I might not be vulnerable to and vice versa. All right.

[00:59:19]We are biologically, physically, spiritually, sexually, emotionally different in many ways that we're alike.

[00:59:26]You could put us in a bell curve and we have many things similar, but we have things that are different. And so this this pattern that's been around for about 30 or so 40 years of men and women are exactly the same. You know that that gender is just a social construct imposed on us. Now, maybe a lot of gender roles are imposed by society and gender can be fluid, but to say that men and women are exactly the same does a disservice to the beautiful ways that we're different. And and and and that's okay. Now, again, are we similar in a lot of ways? Yeah. Are there some women out there that are more like me than like you? Yeah. Are there some guys out there more like you all than than me?

[01:00:08]Yeah. And you know, I've got a strong feminine side. I I love that about me.

[01:00:12]My wife's got a strong masculine side. I love that about her.

[01:00:15]>> But she she also loves to be soft and be led and dress up and look sexy and please me and you know I I >> I was sitting on an airplane yesterday.

[01:00:27]Uh first class seat woman two seats over across the row. I'm not making it up.

[01:00:33]Talked to the woman next to her nonstop the entire flight. She did not take a breath. Stream of consciousness. the entire inter I was flying from Texas down to Mexico so it was only two and a half hour flight but I thought I kept thinking I go oh the woman next door was a saint she listened to her the entire time and I thought for me that's guy hell >> that yeah I put in earplugs just to tune out that woman talking that's guy hell for me but that woman next to me such a saint she just listened to her the entire time so we're we're different and And that's okay. Let's celebrate it >> all the time. It's like it's like I it may seem unfair to you, but these are differences. And what I'm trying to teach you and show you and expose you to are the differences and then how to navigate them so that they don't feel unfair or you feel powerless towards them that you embrace them, celebrate them, and then you know how to handle all of the differences.

[01:01:30]>> And and I tell men there will always be a double standard in relationships, our relationship with women. And you know, there's certain things that go our way.

[01:01:38]There's certain things that go their way. I one one of my favorite jokes. I used to be a minister. I never told this joke. Well, yeah. I have two degrees in religion. I was a minister for eight years. And I I've always said, you know, I kind of like preaching, but probably no church would hire me because I say [ __ ] too much.

[01:01:52]>> But so I I just started >> Well, now they would actually, I'm sure.

[01:01:55]>> Now they would. Maybe maybe I that'd be seen as an asset.

[01:01:59]>> Yeah. But but one of my favorite Bible jokes that actually I never told as a preacher is that seventh day of creation, God's walking through the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve are sitting there relaxing and uh God says to Adam and Eve, "I've got two more gifts to give you guys." And and and they look up and God says, "The first one is the ability to pee standing up."

[01:02:21]And Adam jumps up and goes, "I'll take that one. I got that one." And then he goes, "The second one is multiple orgasms.

[01:02:29]So, you know, there's there's differences and and it may not seem fair, but you know what? As I don't know if either one of you have ever had children, I I have and we heard it as kids, life isn't fair.

[01:02:44]>> So, let's quit expecting it to be fair and let's show up and play on the playing field that's been laid out for us and let's have a good time and let's grow. I I tell people, you know, whatever we think a relationship's going to give us, it's not. But if we're conscious, it will be a powerful personal growth machine. And Marty, I love the stories you tell about you and your husband, 20 years of the challenges that you've had. My wife and I have our challenges. And and we dance with it. We we treat it as opportunities to grow because our our our adult relationships are the best portal to all of our childhood wounding, you know, with mom and dad. And it's just it's the way we work through this stuff and clear it out and work through our karma and all of our epid ep epigenetic [ __ ] and find a good partner that you know brings out the best in us and brings out the worst in us and who's willing to work on their stuff as well.

[01:03:40]>> And I'd say for guys out there dating, you know, keep checking in on that.

[01:03:44]Yeah, the woman's going to do her [ __ ] tests, but women only do [ __ ] tests with men that they want to know how deep can we go together.

[01:03:51]>> Mhm. Right.

[01:03:52]>> It's a it's a sign that there's potential. So >> it's a sign that she sees potential.

[01:03:57]>> Yes. So see that as a thumbs up, gold star, whatever, a green light, however you want to look at it, it's a very good thing. And then just it accordingly.

[01:04:06]>> And while and while accountability may not be a feminine trait, most of the women out there have pretty strong masculine sides to them. So, you know, there there should be some accountability. So I also want to be with a woman that I know she's working on herself. She's growing. My wife has two, three, four shamans in her life that she works with. She'll go, "I'm going I'm going to my women's group."

[01:04:28]And I go, "You're witches." Uhhuh. So, you know, you know, she she's doing her work. And, you know, I think just yesterday when we were standing in the ocean and we were talking about this, you know, stuff and kind of, you know, the stuff that triggers her insecurities. She goes, "Yeah, I I need to make an appointment with fill in the blank." Her sham, one of her shaman's name, right? She she knows that this stuff is still part of her wound.

[01:04:53]>> That's all that you can ask for is just somebody to say like, "Yeah, shit."

[01:04:55]Like, it's creeping up again. It's just >> into a partnership where they're like, "No, this is nothing to do with me. This is all you all the time. You fix it. I'm not going to work on anything."

[01:05:06]>> That's not going to go very far. So, yeah, guys, when you're out there in the dating world, you know, put the woman in all kinds of situations. When when I was dating, you know, first date or two is typical casual coffee date. go for a walk and then I would start introducing them to stuff I like doing. Like >> I I I'd have them ride public transportation with me, get on a city bus >> and go to a baseball game or I buy tickets from a scalper, a black guy on a bicycle with a cell phone or buy I don't even have tickets. We're going to buy them from the scalper like I used to do with my buddies, right? and now we're going to go to a ball game because I like baseball and and and and we're just going to see how's that fit or we're going to go camping. You know, back then it was tent camping and I had a favorite campground that we'd go to up in the mountains in the woods. It had a bathroom, nice enough, but no showers tests.

[01:05:57]>> No hot water is my test.

[01:05:59]>> So, we'd go camping, you know, tent camping, sleeping outside on the ground.

[01:06:04]And I remember when first time I took my wife, my my dear Mexican wife, camping.

[01:06:08]So we're camping up in the Seattle area and I said, "So what do you think of camping?" And she goes, "Oh, Moito."

[01:06:14]Which is this really cool. It's really cool. She said, "This is like growing up poor Mexican. You sleep outside on the ground, cook over a fire, no bathroom, no shower, no hot water." She goes, "This is fun." I go, "You passed the test." So bring bring these women around your friends, your family, get around their friends and family. Do they get along well with their friends and family or are they always mad at their best friend? They're always mad at their mother. Do they not get, you know, do they can they hold a job? Are they accountable? Are they affectionate? Are they loving? Are they honest? Are they trustworthy?

[01:06:47]>> Test for all that stuff.

[01:06:49]>> Yes. And if you're too worried about being nice all the time, which means that you're always thinking about what's going on and what you're getting and what you're doing, you can't be present enough to see these things. Yes. And and so >> get curious because you're right. If a if a guy is trying to get the woman to like him, he'll do everything to try to impress her. You know, oh, isn't this cool fact? I I found out early on I couldn't take women to a concert at the winery. you know, we go to the winery and I'm a good cook and I got the food and I got all the stuff for sitting on the ground and the blankets and it's gonna be like Steve Miller Band or you know uh you know some somebody that's fun in concert. Of course there's two or three bottles of good wine and I found I couldn't take a woman to that on a second or third date cuz she would just fall in love with you know that killer combo is this. Yeah, killer combo, you know. And so since I'm attached to the killer gambo, she's gonna keep seeing me. But yeah, >> take her camping where she sleeps on the ground and doesn't get to take a shower for a couple of days, you know, see if if this lights her up and and is fun.

[01:07:56]And and again, test >> to see how she fits into your great life.

[01:08:00]>> Yeah.

[01:08:01]>> Give her a great life that she can said, "Oh, my life just got better because this man has brought me into his world."

[01:08:09]>> Yeah.

[01:08:10]>> That's That's what a great gift. And and then then she'll poke away at it. She'll poke away at it. But that's okay.

[01:08:15]>> This is real. It's stable. It's not going to knock down. And it's going to be perfect.

[01:08:18]>> And then you get Okay, baby. Bring it.

[01:08:20]That That's the best you got. That's the best you got. Come on. Come on.

[01:08:23]>> Dr. Lover, thank you so much for coming and sharing this with us. I again, I waited a long time to talk to you, but I'm glad that I did wait this long because I I I don't know if I would have fully That's not true. Actually, I would have appreciated this conversation 20 years ago, but I appreciate it even more now. So, thank you so much. Thank you for the invitation. This this was so much fun to to both of you. Uh it's always fun to to have these conversations with women cuz you often I'm interviewing w with men and and the men will listen to it. But you know when I talk to women and say talk about the kind of things we talk about and the guys are probably there with their jaws hanging going, "Oh, women really think that." Women agree with that. Women say that's true. Women say that's accurate.

[01:09:03]So, these are fun conversations to have and for men to listen to uh because you are a stable man who believes in himself. So, I'm >> Oh, you're you're not agreeing with me just because of that. I I I fully trust you would get the stick out, you'd get the broom out and start poking if you if you saw some kinks.

[01:09:20]>> Oh, 100%. 100%. So, thank you so much for doing this. You're amazing. Do you want to tell people uh I mean, you can get No more Mr. Nice Guy anywhere, but you mentioned that you had a couple of men's programs and men's books. Is there a website that they can go to to find out more about these?

[01:09:34]>> Yeah, two different sites. One is uh drlover.com.

[01:09:38]Drgg l.com. It's got my online courses.

[01:09:42]It's got my workshops. It's got my coaching. It's got my mentorship program. Got my coach certification program. And then I have another program called Integration Nation. It's a men's membership program. That's integrationnation.net.

[01:09:56]And um so yeah, go check out either one of those and uh come on down here.

[01:10:00]Portoya. We'll hang out. Have a good time.

[01:10:02]>> Oh, you're in Port of Viarda. Oh, I love that.

[01:10:04]>> I live in Port of Down there.

[01:10:07]>> Pardon?

[01:10:07]>> One of my wing girls is down there and she's part of like a sex and intimacy group that's down there in a very town that is all women. I forget >> a town that's all women. I know. It's like the >> How come I don't know about that?

[01:10:21]>> Chica Viarda.

[01:10:22]>> Yeah, Chica Verta. Well, you know, outside of Cancun, there's actually an island called Ela de Mueres, which is island of women, but I don't think that's all women. It's just an island, you know, outside.

[01:10:33]>> I'll find I'll find out where it is, but it's right outside of Peru Baya. Um, yeah. Interesting.

[01:10:38]>> Yeah, I've lived down here about about 15 years, so it's home. So, awesome.

[01:10:41]>> Thank you so much for being on. New episodes of Turn Her On come out every Monday and Friday. Please share this episode with any nice guy that you know who needs this information so they stop being so freaking nice and they start being absolutely sexy to women so they can turn her on. I hope you guys next