“The Law Is The LAW!” | Trans Women To Be Barred From Female Toilets Under New Guidance

本站添加: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]This is indeed to talk the common sense for me. Julia Hardy, Philip Ingram still with us. And let's speak now to Helen Joyce. She's the director of advocacy at Sex Matters uh the campaign group and also the author of the brilliant book trans gender identity and the new battle for women's rights. A very good afternoon to you Helen.

[00:00:17]>> Hi Julia.

[00:00:18]>> I'm I'm waiting for the day and I mean this nicely when um the battle for women's rights is is that battle the one that we had. It's all been and gone. It seems to me that we having to fight this battle day in day out. I mean, we're in a better position than Australia after speaking to Sal Grover and her tickle v Giggle case uh and the latest court decision there. I spoke to her on the show earlier this week. But um we've actually got and this is very unusual.

[00:00:43]We have some good news to discuss today.

[00:00:46]What's the good news?

[00:00:48]So apparently today is the day that finally the government Bridget Phillipsson who is the Minister for Women and Equalities is releasing guidance that was written by the Equality and Human Rights Commission and was given to her like nearly half a year ago. And this is statutory guidance that gives some, you know, examples and some details on how you obey the law when the law is to do with the Equality Act. The law is the law by the way. The Supreme Court said more than a year ago how we're to interpret the law. There was no need to wait for guidance. They didn't.

[00:01:16]Also, they pointed out the law had always been the law. Now, you say, of course, most people don't spend their time worrying about this. This is down to really simple stuff. This is who's allowed to go into single sex spaces when they are specifically for either men, there's only two sexes, or women.

[00:01:31]But crucially this is the concern has been about women because Bridget Phillipsson and it would seem anti Bernham the candidate for the B-election who may be our prime minister in a matter of weeks who knows depending what happens are of the view that um men who identify as women who they call trans women but of course are simply transidentified men should be allowed to use women's toilets, changing rooms etc etc. >> Yeah. So that misinterpretation of the law was sold by lobby groups like Stonewall. It was bought by businesses, by government, by all sorts of people.

[00:02:05]And employers and service providers thought that equality law meant that they had to let men who say they're women into women's spaces. And that became the rule really across the entire economy. And then along came the Supreme Court and said that had never been the law. And you would have thought that all those people, you know, would have stepped in line with the law. But instead, they all went Supreme Court, what's that? Oh, and there's guidance coming up. But Julia, the thing about this wretched guidance is that it's subsidiary to the law, but also it's for service providers. It's not for employers.

[00:02:33]>> But also crucial, isn't the guidance just, you know, clarifying, okay, so this is the law, but this is what it means for you. It it wasn't you didn't have to wait for the guidance to know what the law is.

[00:02:43]>> No, no, not at all. And it covers all the nine protected characteristics. And it's meant to be for small service providers who might want to do something unusual to do with say, you know, 1 hour a week that they're closing their doors to everybody except one particular group or whatever. And they need lots of examples to help them. You don't need examples on male and female toilets. And you really don't if you're an employer because workplace regulations require you to provide single sex toilets. And you shouldn't need them to know that you have to keep the men out of the ladies because they're men. It really isn't hard to explain. Anyway, they all settled on this excuse and now this excuse is over.

[00:03:18]>> Well, indeed. And we were told we couldn't have this guidance because they were just going through it legally. The lawyers had to look at it and then they couldn't publish it because we had a uh an election uh about local election, Scottish and Welsh election. I mean, excuse after excuse after excuse and eventually they've had to give in. And this is the thing and very grudgingly as well. But this is the thing. It is extraordinary to me although I feared this is what would happen after that Supreme Court ruling in April last year.

[00:03:43]I can't even say last April, that was a month ago, uh last year that we all thought, right, we're done. Oh, finally, right? You know, everyone's been claiming the law says that men can be pretend they're women and we act treat them as if they're women. This made it very clear we didn't for the cases where we had single sex provision and there was a reason for it because sex discrimination is legal where it is needed. For instance, single sex, you know, changing rooms uh and sport and things like that. There's a reason why we brought it in. uh because there are either risks to women or it's unfair for women otherwise. Uh you know women women will not win any races or any sports at all if they're having to compete with men in their in their fields. But but we thought things would change. But we've still got you know we had all those hospital cases of nurses being forced to get down to their bra and knickers while a man claiming he's a woman stands and watches them and that being and then being told that they were in the wrong and were bullies and harassing if they queried it. We've got still children at schools going into m you know well boys being allowed in women's in girls toilets. Uh we've got it in numerous workplaces in leisure centers government buildings. How on earth I mean I was under this bizarre illusion that we all had to obey the law. But I would have thought in particular public services paid for by the state run by the government ultimately were you would even more onus on them to obey the law of the land. I mean, welcome to our world at Sex Matters. We've spent the year since the Supreme Court judgment writing to people, writing to the head of the civil service, writing to government departments, writing to local authorities, writing to organizations that represent, say, as you say, gyms, the charity commission, all of these people and saying the Supreme Court judgment was a model of clarity. And what we have heard back almost universally is we're waiting for the EHRC guidance. We said to a government minister in a department where the toilets are not like you can see that they were the men's and women's toilets but they have a sign put on top of them that says that they're for everybody and if you go in there are signs on the door that say please close the door after you because men don't and so women walk into the toilets and there's a man there you know having a way anyway we said to that minister uh why are you waiting for the guidance it's for service providers not employers and you're an employer in any way you're the government and the answer was Nevertheless, we are going to wait.

[00:05:59]That is it's scoff law territory.

[00:06:02]Anyway, the wait is over. This damn guidance is out. And I really hope that they don't choose a different excuse to say for the next year.

[00:06:07]>> I I think they will use a different excuse because you got to remember they think that you and I are horrible, nasty, transphobic bigots. And and according to Andy according to Andy Burnham who may be our prime minister in a few weeks time according to what he said in 2022 and there's no reason to think he's changed his views. He's made similar comments since but on camera he's talked about how you know he he he thinks that absolutely trans you know he calls them trans women but transidentifated men should be allowed uh into women's toilets and only a very small minority of people would object to that and these are supposed feminists.

[00:06:44]Now, I've already asked Kelly Jay Keane, who makes those wonderful t-shirts, you know, the definition of a woman, adult, human, female. Um, I've asked her to get one of those t-shirts made up. You know, I'm sure we all buy. I'm a supposed feminist. I'm sure you are as well. Um, now I've been talking to, you know, representatives of different parties and they're absolutely adamant. These are not issues for most voters. They do not care about this stuff. Even most women don't care about this stuff. uh and and and you know bringing this stuff up on the doorstep in a bi-election or in a general election, people don't care.

[00:07:14]They're worried about the cost of living or immigration or the NHS, whatever.

[00:07:18]They don't care about this stuff. Do you think they're right? Why would it be on the front pages of the papers that Andy Burnham said this stuff? But also, if nobody cares, then why are they working so hard to force the men into women's spaces? If it's a non-issue, don't bother. Just leave it the way it always was. No, some people do care a lot. Um, and you know, it's women who care and we're being ignored. And we know from polling that we've done and that others have done that actually the majority of people say that no man should be allowed into women's spaces. I agree that it's not up there with the cost of living.

[00:07:47]It's not up there with employ unemployment or worries about NHS. But when it happens to you, when you are the person whose daughter has to compete with a boy in sports or you are the person whose daughter has to undress in a changing room with men or something like that, then suddenly you care a lot.

[00:08:02]I think a lot of people just don't know it's even happening. It's one of those things that's so crazy that lots of people just don't realize it's happening. We would say to those people, >> you say that other people are going, they're going to find a new excuse. And what I'd say to them is, okay, see you in court.

[00:08:15]>> Yeah, absolutely. And I know you're bringing a number of cases sort of, you know, sort of to encourage the others.

[00:08:21]But it is fascinating how we're told there are so few trans people. Why why do you have to make a big deal? Where where are they supposed to go? trans people, you know, transidentified men.

[00:08:31]They call them trans women. They're not women. Don't use that word. That's our word. We're not a subset. That they that they're at risk if they go into the men's bathroom. It's like, what are you saying?

[00:08:40]>> Well, it also technology men are a threat to women.

[00:08:43]>> Exactly. I mean, this is the thing and this is the thing. It does the majority of men who don't pretend they think they're women are not a threat to women.

[00:08:50]But the reason why we have uh men banned from our changing rooms, our toilets and others because there is a percentage of men who are perverts who want to watch women undress and and and and go to the L whatever and who will sexually assault or attempt to rape women and children uh in those scenarios.

[00:09:05]>> Privacy, Julia, privacy, but also don't want them there.

[00:09:08]>> But we Yeah, but there's a privacy issue there. But even that the risk but the risk we don't know which men are the predatory men, which is why we keep all of the men out. And most men, the vast majority of men agree and understand that.

[00:09:21]>> I mean, what a bubble Andy Bernham must be in that he thinks that the majority of people agree with him. I mean, one of the comments that I read in one of the news articles was very funny. It said, "I don't think that most people on the streets where he's campaigning seriously think that men should be in women's changing rooms. I mean, that is not the majority position. It never has been."

[00:09:38]And how somebody who hopes to be prime minister can seriously be so ignorant of what people think. But he's not now, I'd say, after the last few days. I think he he may have had had an enlightening eyeopening few days.

[00:09:50]>> Absolutely. Well, I always thank you for your amazing work on these this front from Sex Matters. That's Helen Joyce.

[00:09:56]Thank you very much.