Pamela Smart Murder Trial

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]Heat. Heat.

[00:00:20]Hey, hey, hey.

[00:01:03]Let's rock.

[00:01:06]>> Good morning, Murder Church. What's up, guys? Sorry about that. I was running really late today. It's like almost 11 o'clock. So, we'll hang out here for a little bit. Um, get in at least another video here in the Pamela Smart Trial.

[00:01:21]Thanks everyone for coming in. I appreciate it.

[00:01:24]I didn't get the chat in here or anything. I'll do that in real time here. Hopefully, I'll take quick. Hope everyone's having a good weekend. Good Memorial Day weekend.

[00:01:37]Uh, boom. Boom.

[00:01:45]I'm excited to be off for three days is what I'm excited about.

[00:01:52]All right. Hopefully that takes pretty quick. But yeah, let me see who's in here right now. Also, the fine people in the Buzz Nation chat.

[00:02:01]Got some folks in here right quick.

[00:02:06]Hold on. Hold on. I got you. I got you.

[00:02:08]Yeah, I come down here. My computer was like blue screened and acting weird. had to delete some stuff because it was still very full. I need to get some stuff on a hard drive.

[00:02:19]Uh Simmyi, what's up, Simmy? Welcome in here. Pokemon Pammy in the house. Let me get them bales going. That's right.

[00:02:28]Can't break that tradition now that we got the tradition back. We lost it there for a little while. Hold on. Hold on. I still bet it's not working, but we're going to try anyways.

[00:02:37]Oh, it's working without me even having to reset it up. That's very strange.

[00:02:42]Hell yeah. Good call, guys, on the bells. Simei in the house.

[00:02:47]Carrie in the house.

[00:02:51]Leia coming through. Nice.

[00:02:54]Got that Sunday crew up in her. Teresa.

[00:02:59]Morning, guys. Thank you all for coming through. I appreciate it.

[00:03:03]Uh yeah, let's do it. Let's get in here.

[00:03:05]I going to go make some coffee. Um, yeah. We're going to start off with insurance investigator Daniel Hull. In this video, we'll also see Superintendent Dr. Norman Caner Kner and Greg Smart's coworker Bruce Doobie all take the stand here. So, I'm going to go make a coffee. I'll be back down here.

[00:03:23]We're probably not going to go for too too long. We'll probably go like an hour or something. Um, let's let's get in here. Let's go. Let's do it. Is there Oh, there's closed captions. Oh, Lord.

[00:03:34]Let me take that banner off. Wait, I closed my uncaptions.

[00:03:38]Oh [ __ ] Why is that? What is happening? Why is everything changing on me? That shouldn't even have a a thing on it default.

[00:03:56]Transparent it.

[00:03:58]Yeah, it changed up on me. Hold on. I'm gonna have to redo this because it's Hold on. Hold on. The Botrix chat did that now.

[00:04:12]Hopefully that works.

[00:04:16]Yeah, immediate fix. Nice. All right, captions coming. Thanks everybody. I'll be on the phone and yeah, I'm going to go make some coffee and I'll be right back.

[00:04:30]Please spell your last name for the benefit of the report.

[00:04:33]>> H O U L E.

[00:04:36]M see your honor.

[00:04:37]>> Boom.

[00:04:38]>> Mr. Hill. Hi. Whom are you employed?

[00:04:40]>> Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. And >> how long have you been so employed?

[00:04:45]>> 18 years.

[00:04:47]>> Where are you employed working for Metropolitan Life?

[00:04:49]>> Warick, Rhode Island.

[00:04:51]>> And what are your duties and responsibilities for Metropolitan Life?

[00:04:55]Basically, I oversee uh claims that are unusual in nature such as uh homicides, uh suicides, uh contestable policies, fraud cases.

[00:05:06]>> Be right back.

[00:05:07]>> And what geographical area are you in charge of?

[00:05:10]>> Uh right now the basically the New England states.

[00:05:14]>> And how long have you had these responsibilities? Metropolitan life >> approximately 10 years.

[00:05:21]Did you ever become involved in the handling of the life insurance policies for Gregory Smart?

[00:05:26]>> Yes, I did.

[00:05:28]>> And investigating the life insurance policies for Gregory Smart, did you become aware of what personal life insurance policies he had? Uh we originally knew he had one life insurance policy and uh because he he had deceased within two years of its issuance. Uh we conducted a medical investigation in regards to his his medical history. And uh uh we already knew he had a life insurance policy if that's what you're asking.

[00:05:55]>> And how much was that life insurance policy for?

[00:05:58]>> $50,000.

[00:05:59]>> And when was that policy entered into?

[00:06:02]When was it bought?

[00:06:12]He signed the application for insurance on June 13th, 1989.

[00:06:17]>> Who was the beneficiary of that insurance policy?

[00:06:20]>> Uh, originally Pamela A. Smart.

[00:06:35]Now, is there any particular rider on that insurance policy?

[00:06:38]>> Yes, there was a spouse term writer that also ensured the life of Pamela Smart.

[00:06:43]>> And can you explain that to the members of the jury?

[00:06:46]>> Uh, that's also for $50,000. Uh, when the insurance was taken out, uh, not only ensured the life of Greg Smart, who was the owner of the policy, but also insured his wife should she die, he would be the recipient of $50,000, and we would still keep the insurance on him. Also >> now this rider a pand that ever changed?

[00:07:08]>> Uh it was it was later converted uh to a room policy.

[00:07:12]>> And when did that conversion take place?

[00:07:21]>> Approximately January 23rd 1990.

[00:07:24]>> What would have to happen in order to convert it from a spouse term rider to their own policy? The basic reasons people do it is uh so they get cash value in their policies and she had retained it uh under her uh under Greg's policy. She wouldn't have any cash value of it. That's basically why the reason they do it and uh Greg Smart would have to to have known about this because he was the owner of the polic of the original policy. Now in June 89 when Pamela Smart spouse turned were any signatures required by her own order to have that benefit or were there any signatures on the application? Uh the original application had to require uh signatures of uh both parties >> and in switching it over to her own policy in J uh January 1990 that require signatures.

[00:08:10]>> Yes, both parties again because he was the owner of the policy. He had to agree to the conversion.

[00:08:16]>> Now is this $50,000 a fixed sum?

[00:08:18]>> Yes, it is.

[00:08:19]>> And what's it based on? How do you get the $50,000 personal life insurance?

[00:08:24]>> Basically, it goes by the uh the age of the applicant. uh what what he's willing to pay as a as a premium and basically uh uh his health.

[00:08:34]>> Now, besides the $50,000 personal life insurance, was there any other insurance policy of Gregory Smart you're aware of?

[00:08:41]>> Being an employee of Metropolitan Life, uh he he was also eligible for group life insurance and uh uh he had $90,000 worth of group insurance with us. Can you explain to the members of the jury what you mean by group life insurance?

[00:08:59]>> Uh most large corporations uh employ their when they when they hire someone they u automatically guarantee them uh a certain amount of of uh term group insurance and uh usually it's based on what you make. Now, in our company, what we do is uh let's say you let's say you've made uh $50,000 a year. Company also gives you the option of uh asking uh do you want coverage one, two, three, four times your salary and you pay for that benefit depending on how many times uh you choose. uh if you chose uh if your salary was $50,000 and you chose coverage two times upon death, you would get $100,000.

[00:09:48]>> Now, when did this group policy first when was it first started for Greg M?

[00:10:01]Basically the uh coverage starts when uh a party is hired with the company and uh that would have been October 24th, 1988.

[00:10:12]>> At that time you know who the beneficiary was?

[00:10:14]>> Uh at that time it was uh the beneficiary was uh William Smart the uh our insurance's father.

[00:10:23]>> Now did that beneficiary change?

[00:10:25]>> Yes it did. Can you tell us what a change?

[00:10:35]Uh change of beneficiary was completed on August 24th, 1989 uh naming Pamela A. Smart uh relationship spouse uh as beneficiary to the group coverage.

[00:10:47]>> Now is there any requirement for smart signing form in order to be beneficiary?

[00:10:54]>> No.

[00:10:56]Now you said that in order to determine how much insurance an employee would have he would have to select particular option of how much times his salary would be he selected in this case. Do you know what was selected by Gregory Smart >> on October uh in October of 88 he completed a company options form and he requested that uh we pay him three times his annual salary. And when was this form completed by Gregory Smart?

[00:11:27]>> Believe October 16th, 1988. I'm sorry, 1989.

[00:11:32]>> Now, would this form require any signatures of Pamel?

[00:11:36]>> No.

[00:11:38]>> Once she's doing once this form is filled out and someone were to die, how then is it determined how much insurance that individual would get? the uh in uh Gregory response case since he was an agent uh he he had al a salary also commission and basically what uh the company would have to do is look back to his what he made in commissions and in his salary the prior year use that figure and basically multiply it by three they do round it off >> so before you determine how much the insurance would be you first have to determine how much Gregory Scotty made the previous year >> correct >> now when you say make the previous year are we talking about uh tax year and fiscal year.

[00:12:25]>> Tax year from uh tax year will be the tax year for 1989 not a fiscal year >> and once that amount of money is determined it's times three and that's the amount of money which is provided to the beneficiaries.

[00:12:37]>> Correct. Round basically round it off.

[00:12:38]So it's a lump sum figure.

[00:12:41]>> Now do you know when claims benefits whoever filed in this case requested benefits? Uh I believe a a notice was sent out uh to the beneficiary uh advising that we did have that Gregory Smart did have uh group benefits. Let's see.

[00:14:11]On May on May 9th, 1990, the company sent a a request out telling that uh he did have he did have coverage.

[00:14:20]>> Why would the company send a request out to a beneficiary?

[00:14:24]>> Obviously, some people don't realize they have coverage.

[00:14:27]>> And what is sent along with this notice?

[00:14:30]>> Basically, a note of cond condolences and a request that a form be signed uh by the beneficiary and a return of a policy. And upon receipt of those documents, the company would then entertain a claim. Do you know when those documents were forwarded back to your office?

[00:14:46]>> Uh, I don't know the exact date, but they were completed on 51490 and returned to we probably got them within a couple of days after that.

[00:14:53]>> Now, this is the $90,000 group insurance policy.

[00:14:56]>> Correct.

[00:14:56]>> And do you know when the personal insurance policy claims were filed?

[00:15:05]>> May 8th, 1990.

[00:15:07]>> Now, was it $90,000 paid out in this case?

[00:15:12]the $90,000 was paid out approximately uh May 31st.

[00:15:17]Uh our policy was not paid out because uh the life insurance the life insurance policy wasn't paid out because uh it was issued within the insured had died within two years of issue. We were conducting normal inquiries but the group was paid out approximately 53190.

[00:15:35]>> So it's normal in a group I'm sorry personal life insurance if the insurer dies within two years to do a medical history. Correct.

[00:15:43]>> Now, how would a beneficiary know or what would a beneficiary have to know in order to know what the insurance would be in this group life insurance?

[00:15:57]>> Well, basically, we don't issue a physical contract on the group policy.

[00:16:01]Uh what he would have to know is uh what the what the person or the Metropolitan employee made the prior year and he would have to have uh knowledge of the option forms that the uh employee completed whether he wanted one, two or three times his salary.

[00:16:29]I question.

[00:16:42]>> As I understand it, um there's two different policies here. One one's a group and I caught that word. The first one called a wife or whole life >> personal life insurance.

[00:16:51]>> Personal life insurance.

[00:16:52]>> All right. Now, that first one is $50,000.

[00:16:56]Correct. Personal life.

[00:16:57]>> The personal life is $50,000.

[00:16:59]>> So, I could get a chart, but let's just pretend I have a chart. Personal life $50,000 and the beneficiary Pam in this case would have signed for it.

[00:17:08]>> Correct.

[00:17:09]>> Okay.

[00:17:10]That's $50,000 if the signature is accurate. That's $50,000 she would know about. Right.

[00:17:15]>> Correct. Okay.

[00:17:18]>> At some at the point she signs it anyway. Correct.

[00:17:21]>> Yes.

[00:17:22]>> Now, the $90,000 is sort of like comes with the job. Is that correct?

[00:17:26]>> Uh, a wife probably probably a wife might know that he has grouping coverage, but they wouldn't particularly know the exact amount. They may just maybe a a general concept that yes, I'm covered by the company under some group, but uh even an individual working for the company won't know specific the specific amount uh at any one time because I don't think anyone else particularly their salary for last year the equation may not you know be readily available to the employee.

[00:17:59]>> Okay. Basically and let me just see if I understand what you're saying is that a person and or spouse or parents or anybody might know he's covered by this group thing but to know the actual benefit that would be paid out at death have to have know the formula as well as know the specific amount of money made on salary as well as know the commissions for the previous year.

[00:18:21]>> Absolutely right. It's a uh a figure that's that's probably available, but you wouldn't know the exact amount as the personal life policy has it right right on the face face of the policy, $50,000. But a group, you would probably know that you're covered, but you wouldn't specifically know the amount.

[00:18:37]>> Okay? So, if you wouldn't know the amount of the group specifically, you certainly wouldn't know the amount if you added the group to the personal together because one of the two numbers in that is the group, the total. You could be you could be assure of the uh personal life policy, but you probably would not know the group or the addition of both. You would probably would not know.

[00:18:56]>> Okay. Thank you very much, sir.

[00:18:58]>> No further questions, sir.

[00:19:02]>> Clear voice, would you please state your name so that everyone in the jury could hear and spell your last name for the >> Norman Katner? K N.

[00:19:13]>> Mr. Ker. Dr. Katner, I believe. Is that correct?

[00:19:15]>> Yes.

[00:19:16]>> Where do you live? Uh 10 blueberry or lane Ryan, New Hampshire.

[00:19:20]>> Are you married?

[00:19:21]>> Yes.

[00:19:21]>> Do you have any children?

[00:19:23]>> Yes.

[00:19:24]>> How many children do you have?

[00:19:25]>> Two.

[00:19:26]>> What is your professional background?

[00:19:29]>> I'm an educator.

[00:19:32]>> And what degrees do you hold?

[00:19:34]>> BS in elementary education, uh MA and supervision and instruction, and a doctor's degree in education administration.

[00:19:45]And where are you currently employed?

[00:19:49]>> I'm currently retired and working as a consultant.

[00:19:52]>> And before you retired, where were you working?

[00:19:55]>> I was superintendent of schools in the school administrative unit number 21 in Hampton.

[00:20:01]>> Did you know Pamela Samar?

[00:20:02]>> Yes.

[00:20:03]>> She in the courtroom. Pardon?

[00:20:05]>> Is she in the courtroom?

[00:20:06]>> Yes.

[00:20:07]>> You point her out, please.

[00:20:10]Now, can you explain for the members of the jury what ASU21 is?

[00:20:17]>> School administrative units were formed in 1917 as the result of soldiers from New Hampshire being inducted into the service, not able to pass the literacy test. The school administrative unit takes from one to 14 individual school districts and handles the business affairs at all for those particular schools in SAU 21 and located in Hampton. There are six school districts Southampton, Sebrook, Hampton Falls, Hampton, North Hampton, and the Want District. All separate and independent school districts. It was our function to order whatever they needed had to have to pay for those uh items ordered to handle their payroll uh to negotiate their contracts with the teachers uh and other employee organizations to set up the agendas for each of the six school boards that had meetings to provide them uh with legal services uh to set up their annual district meetings at which time the budgets were voted on. In general, all business affairs of the individual districts were processed through the school administrative unit office. And >> where was the school administrative office for SAU21?

[00:21:41]>> Where was it located?

[00:21:42]>> Yes.

[00:21:42]>> It was directly across from the Winnant High School.

[00:21:46]>> And were you familiar with the media center of SAU21?

[00:21:50]>> Yes.

[00:21:50]>> And where was that located? that was located in the basement of a school administrative unit building.

[00:21:58]>> And what was your responsibility as superintendent of SA21?

[00:22:08]>> There there's no relevance. We all know the superintendent of schools does.

[00:22:12]>> What is the relevance?

[00:22:13]>> Just trying to lay the background foundation for the witness's testimony.

[00:22:19]Seems to me you're not familiar with what a super generally speaking.

[00:22:22]>> I'll go on that. Now, how was it that you knew Pamela Smart?

[00:22:28]>> I employed Pamela Smart, I believe on August 22nd, 1988 to in a twofold position. number one to uh run direct the media center and at the same time to move more heavily into public relations for the SAU21 handling uh the PR or developing a program public relations for uh the SA21.

[00:22:57]>> Can you tell us what governing bodies there are for SA21?

[00:23:03]governing body of SEU 21 like all SAUs is is all of the board members of the component districts and when it come in SEU 21's case that was 22 board members with 66 weighted votes >> when you say 66 weighted votes that means three votes per member >> there is a formula by which uh school boards get three votes and then based upon the number of teachers get additional votes uh up to a maximum in our district an RSI of 22 uh or 1919, excuse me.

[00:23:40]>> So this board of 22 members consists of representatives from all the school boards.

[00:23:45]>> The joint board consists of all the representatives of all the component district school boards. Correct.

[00:23:50]>> Now besides yourself as superintendent, do you have any assistant? Did you have any assistant superintendent when you were working 21?

[00:23:57]>> Yes. No.

[00:23:59]>> Would you like to respond?

[00:24:01]I'm just trying to get the names and players for the jury so we'll hear the names later.

[00:24:07]>> Did you have any assistance at that time?

[00:24:09]>> Yes.

[00:24:10]>> Who were they?

[00:24:11]>> Fred Engelback was assistant superintendent for business. Leon Worthley was assistant superintendent for curriculum.

[00:24:18]>> Now, besides uh the 22 member SA, >> this was her boss, right?

[00:24:25]>> Superintendent Dr. Norman Patner. So, I guess he was like the principal, right?

[00:24:29]Because of the size of a joint board and because by law they were only required to meet twice a year. Prior to my arrival, it was decided that each board would appoint or elect a representative to an administrative operations committee that then would meet >> like a CEO of the school district, chief executive offic. So this guy was like overseeing the whole area. So it's not necessarily just a direct >> joint board meeting with the superintendent to develop agendas uh to advise the superintendent. They had no legislative but they were instrumental in in creating the agendas for the joint board meetings.

[00:25:06]>> And who would attend these administrative operations committees meetings? normally one representative from each of the six school districts, myself, uh Leon Worthley at times and Fred Engelbach at times depending upon on what the issues were.

[00:25:23]>> And were you required to attend part of your job as a superintendent?

[00:25:27]>> Morning, Paige. Yeah, I was crazy late.

[00:25:29]This is the latest I've probably ever been actually.

[00:25:32]>> Now, calling your attention to this Excuse me. Let me back up one second.

[00:25:35]Where were these meetings normally held?

[00:25:37]meetings were normally held.

[00:25:38]>> I got called up because when I got down here, it would have been probably 15 minutes sooner, but my computer was all [ __ ] up >> in the conference room at the SAU office in Hampton.

[00:25:48]>> And where is that conference room as you walk into the building?

[00:25:50]>> As you walk in to the front in the front door, you would go downstairs to your right, upstairs straight ahead, and as you go up the stairs to the next level, it would be directly to your right.

[00:26:03]>> So, it's in the upstairs. Is that correct?

[00:26:05]>> Right. Calling your attention to the spring of 1990.

[00:26:11]Were there any administrative operations committee meetings in April?

[00:26:15]>> In April?

[00:26:16]>> Yes.

[00:26:16]>> There was one scheduled for and held on April 5th. There was another one held on April 12th.

[00:26:23]>> Did you attend the April 5th meeting?

[00:26:25]>> No, I did not.

[00:26:26]>> You all right?

[00:26:28]>> You okay?

[00:26:28]>> Yeah.

[00:26:29]>> I thought saw the discomfort.

[00:26:31]>> Did you attend the meeting on April 12th?

[00:26:34]>> Yes.

[00:26:35]And do you know what the reason for the April 12th meeting was?

[00:26:42]>> The reason for the April 12th meeting basically was a continuation of the April 5th meeting at which time we did not complete uh all of the uh agenda setting items for the joint board meeting to be held on May 1st. So on April 12th the items were finished. Um there were a multitude of items.

[00:27:39]uh one dealt with uh >> Oh my god, I'm [ __ ] muted. Jesus Christ. I was saying I just now figured out this morning that there was a there's a there was a film over top of these things. So if you whenever you do get one I have a couple of these going out. Uh pull that off. I mean, I guess you could leave it on there. It also becomes a lot smoother, but it pops a lot harder once you take that like blue.

[00:28:00]It's almost like a blue film. Or maybe it's clear and it's blue when it comes off. But I didn't even notice that and until this morning I was like, "What is that?" And then I pulled it off my own thing.

[00:28:12]So revamping >> your information media center in the basement to accommodate um to accommodate uh the staff on the upper floor, the business staff in the upper floor.

[00:28:29]I can't tell you whether it was on the I believe it was on the uh >> 12th that we also discussed a proposal by the Winniput board to have Mrs. Spark teach a class uh in the high school the following September.

[00:28:47]>> Now does Miss Smart required to represent herself at that meeting?

[00:28:52]>> No.

[00:28:53]>> How do those meetings normally function?

[00:28:57]the AOC meeting.

[00:28:59]>> That's correct.

[00:29:00]>> Normally the chairman calls the there's an agenda prior to the meeting. Uh the chair the uh chairman of the AOC calls the meeting to order and then we would proceed to go down through the items listed on the agenda.

[00:29:17]>> Now besides uh this course that might be taught by the defendant, was there any payraises discussed that evening for anybody? There was a pay raise uh on the agenda for you have to understand the agenda was for the 5th. They didn't we didn't finish it on the 5th. So it carried over to the 12th. So on the agenda for the 5th was a pay raise but it was acted upon on the 12th.

[00:29:41]>> And when the pay raise is acted upon, is that acted upon in the general session of the administrative operations committee? it that depends. If it's uh usually payraises are held in executive session, >> what does that mean? That means that the board excludes uh people from the meeting uh who do not have a vested interest in that particular topic under the provision of the open meetings act. Goes into executive session, discusses it, does not necessarily take action and comes back out and takes action uh on on whatever personnel item that it might have discussed.

[00:30:22]>> Now, did you have any discussion? Let me back that up. on April 12th, 1990. Was Pam spotted at the meeting that night?

[00:30:32]>> Yes.

[00:30:33]>> And where was that meeting?

[00:30:34]>> That meeting was in the uh conference room at the uh SEU21 office.

[00:30:40]>> Now, besides family smart with the six board members or representatives from the different school boards present, >> I'm not sure that all six were, but there was a majority, which in this case is five. And besides the representatives and the board members and yourself, who else was there?

[00:31:00]>> Uh, Leon Worthway and Fred Engelbach.

[00:31:05]>> Now, is there anybody else besides the defendant at this meeting from the general school employee roles?

[00:31:16]>> Not to the best of my knowledge.

[00:31:18]>> Did you have any discussions with the defendant on that day to whether or not she should be at that meeting?

[00:31:30]I I really cannot answer that. Uh I believe I have a recollection of advising uh Pam at lunchtime that it was not necessary for her to attend.

[00:31:43]>> Why would it not be necessary for her to attend?

[00:31:45]>> Well, most of the items in those particular meetings were dealt with by six board members. They're only recommendations.

[00:31:52]uh they're not uh anything that's binding on any of the boards or on on the joint board as a whole. And uh usually about the only time we had uh non board members andor non administrative staff members would be if we invited the teachers in to discuss the calendar which was required by the contract. So very rarely I would imagine in all the joint board meetings we had which must have been in six years probably around 15 >> we probably had uh >> three to four SAU employees >> attend that meeting those meetings >> what's happening >> do you know how late the meeting went in approximately >> I I'm assuming it went late because there was a lot of business to conduct that was carried over from uh carried over from the 5th. Uh usually the meetings would end at 10:00 by virtue of a board member indicating they were going to end at 10:00. Uh I believe that meeting went later. How much later? I can't recall. It would be in the minutes of the meeting.

[00:33:07]>> Now after April 12th, were there any other meetings in the spring of 1990?

[00:33:12]>> Joint board meeting on May 1st. Now just to distinguish the joint board meeting is the board you referred to as the 22 members.

[00:33:20]>> Yes.

[00:33:21]>> And >> who takes action upon those items that were that were prepared on April 5th and April 12th.

[00:33:28]>> So the April 5th and April 12th meetings make recommendations.

[00:33:32]>> That's the those are the agenda setting meetings for the joint board. Yes.

[00:33:36]>> Did you attend the meeting on April? I'm sorry on May 1st 1990.

[00:33:42]>> Yes.

[00:33:43]Was the defendant present at that meeting?

[00:33:45]>> Yes.

[00:33:46]>> Did you have any conversations with the defendant prior to her attendance at the meeting on May 1st?

[00:33:53]>> Yes.

[00:33:54]>> Can you tell us when that conversation was?

[00:33:56]>> Was on the morning of May 1st.

[00:34:01]Can you tell us what the substance of that conversation was? Who was president?

[00:34:05]>> It a decision had been made and discussed.

[00:34:11]I should say a decision had been made. A discussion had taken place relative to utilizing more space in the basement uh for the business operations which were upstairs on the high floor. That meant that the media operation would have to diminish its space to some extent. Uh Mr. Inglebach had been working on that.

[00:34:38]Uh, our agendas by board policy had to be out.

[00:34:42]>> Ain't no way this old dude's still out, right?

[00:34:46]>> 7 days in advance of May 1st. However, the final drawings for the particular revision in the basement were mailed on Friday uh preceding the 30th. That might have been the 27th. All right.

[00:35:02]And on Monday the 30th of April, Mr. Engelbach came to me and indicated that I better have a meeting with Mrs. Smart because whereas she had been in agreement with uh giving up the space. Uh she was now and I believe the word he used to me was reigging.

[00:35:25]So, I scheduled a meeting for the morning of May 1st to go over uh what that was all about.

[00:35:32]>> Can you tell us who's at that meeting on the Monday? I'm sorry, on the morning of May 1st.

[00:35:37]>> Pam Smart, Frag Engelbach, Leon Worthley, Bruce Cassasa, who was chairman of the joint board, and myself.

[00:35:46]>> Can you tell us your recollection what happened at that time?

[00:35:50]>> I think Mr. Engleback pointed out that it had been agreed upon and that the material had gone out to the board members on the preceding Friday and that uh now Mrs. Mark didn't agree with what had been presented to the joint board via the mail and uh I recall during the discussion Pam indicated that and these may not be the exact words but uh that she would be going that night in the event anyone asked her questions she would have to answer them. Is that a normal procedure where employees from SAU 21 would be available these board meetings to answer questions?

[00:36:34]>> In in the six years I was there probably three times SAU employees had appeared before the joint board meeting.

[00:36:47]But then uh in those particular instances when the superintendent had indicated to the AOC that they would be there to discuss uh a particular program or a change in program, >> did you or any of your assistants invite Mr. Smart to attend and speak at that meeting?

[00:37:03]>> Not to my knowledge.

[00:37:04]>> And when she said that she would be available at the meeting or go to the meeting to answer any questions, what was your response? I believe I said to her, "Pam, you do what you have to do tonight and I'll do what I have to do tomorrow."

[00:37:17]>> What did you mean by that?

[00:37:18]>> I meant that I would call her in and discuss with her the protocol of dealing directly with a joint board rather than dealing through the administrative structure that had been created for that purpose.

[00:37:32]>> Why would that bother you that you go to opinion?

[00:37:38]>> What's the express?

[00:37:40]I'm sorry. Unless the man expressive just thought I was a question. Did you go to the meeting that night, Mr. Dr. Ker?

[00:37:52]>> Yes.

[00:37:52]>> And was Cameron Smart there?

[00:37:54]>> Yes.

[00:37:54]>> Did she speak out?

[00:37:56]>> No.

[00:38:05]As I understand it, there were between April and the beginning of May, there were three meetings. April 5th, April 12th, and May 1st. Is that correct?

[00:38:15]>> That I I believe that. Yes.

[00:38:18]>> Okay. And at least one of these was a carryover from April 5th. April 5th, you didn't finish and some of the agendas went on.

[00:38:26]>> Went to April 12th. public. Um, and during these meetings, there were at least three things that would have a lot to do with Pamela Smart. Is that correct?

[00:38:37]Salaries.

[00:38:39]That was >> as as was everyone else's.

[00:38:42]>> Okay.

[00:38:44]>> You want me to explain that the administrative operations committee recommends all salaries to the joint board. So, it wasn't only Pam's salary that was being discussed. Here's the two assistant superintendent, my own and those who are employed in the SAO.

[00:39:04]>> Let me just have a moment.

[00:39:15]>> Her particular salary though was a separate item on the agenda, wasn't it?

[00:39:19]>> Yes.

[00:39:20]>> Okay. Separate from all these other employees.

[00:39:22]>> Okay. Why was that? because she occupied a somewhat different uh a somewhat different category. Uh there were the certified salaries and there were the non-certified salaries. Non-certified being your account payable clerks, payroll clerks, etc. And uh PAM was kind of a an in between type of thing. It really didn't fall under administration.

[00:39:46]It didn't fall on the salary schedule.

[00:39:48]So >> Oh my god. Hold on. My entire feed is this right now. I've just broke my feed.

[00:39:54]I'm just going to bring it over and scroll it for a bit just because I want to.

[00:39:59]Uh, so yeah, this chick last night was live.

[00:40:06]Um, let's see if I can just find that real quick also. Hold on.

[00:40:10]Should have found it pretty quick.

[00:40:16]Reporter.

[00:40:19]I'm literally just gonna put in reporter.

[00:40:23]This should be the real thing. Yeah, here's the real thing. So, hold on.

[00:40:31]Yeah. Gunshots start ringing out.

[00:40:35]Yeah. Every other reporter like gets the hell out of there, but this was her reaction.

[00:40:48]>> What is that? Sounds like fireworks.

[00:40:52]>> Sounds like fireworks.

[00:40:56]>> How do you hear that today though and not go? We need to get the [ __ ] out of here today. But this obviously comes just a couple weeks after a shooting at the White House.

[00:41:11]So, this lady has now become a full-on meme, which is it it's definitely sad, but like I said in the chat there, I she could lean into this and honestly like make this work. She could probably even start doing her own thing on line, like quite frankly. But also, it's very hard to do. I mean, she would have to have some balls to do it. She'd have to lean into the joke. Um, I don't know.

[00:41:44]But also, it's it's kind of funny. It's I'm just being honest. It's They've green screened her and now you can put anything. I kind of want to put her in a in an actual horror movie.

[00:41:57]Yeah. Like this lady got the [ __ ] down. She's like, "Nope."

[00:42:07]Like look at the differences in reactions. She's like, "What is that?"

[00:42:13]Like her face is her reaction of just Oh my god. What is happening, bro? Oh my god.

[00:42:34]Oh my god.

[00:42:36]Dude, the internet is is the winner.

[00:42:41]Oh my god.

[00:42:44]>> Waking up this morning to devastation in Minneapolis.

[00:42:48]Transition.

[00:42:55]>> Oh god.

[00:42:56]>> What is that?

[00:42:57]>> Oh [ __ ] Oh wow. There's a nugget for you.

[00:43:10]>> Oh my god.

[00:43:17]So yeah, that's a thing that happened yesterday. The world is [ __ ] crazy.

[00:43:26]Oh, get the sound back.

[00:43:30]salaries for that by action of the AOC.

[00:43:33]We would recommend and the AOC would would uh respond with the rest of the salaries for non-certified staff. They were on a schedule and we would discuss the schedule with the uh uh AOC and they would usually make the recommendation based upon that salary schedule.

[00:43:52]>> Okay. You know, if I understand that all your other non-certified employees for the whole SAU was one motion, one sort of rate structure, salary structure.

[00:44:04]>> Okay. For the employees of the SAU, not all non-certified employees of the SAU.

[00:44:12]Okay. Only though, only those that worked in the SAU office. Well, it is it's a little it's a little tricky >> because the SAU negotiates salaries for the balance of the districts.

[00:44:24]>> So, the only ones that the AOC deals with are those that were employed directly within that building.

[00:44:30]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:44:31]>> Still don't understand, but I can get past this point. Okay.

[00:44:34]>> All right.

[00:44:34]>> Um at these meetings or meeting, whichever it was, um there were two salary proposals. One was for Ham Smart all by herself and the other was for a bunch of other people altogether.

[00:44:46]>> Three and the two assistants.

[00:44:49]>> Okay.

[00:44:51]>> So her salary was a separate item on the agenda, >> right?

[00:44:54]>> Okay. Then there was told you I could get us past that.

[00:44:59]>> Okay, good.

[00:45:00]>> Um there was also the question of media center, correct? Um changing the actual place or size of the media center. Yes, >> that that was an issue there too.

[00:45:11]>> Yes.

[00:45:12]>> That would be the conditions under which she worked. Really? Where is she working? How much room she >> Yes.

[00:45:20]>> Um there's a third thing they had to do to I remember correctly. She had a special proposal. Even though she wasn't a teacher, she wanted to teach a course at one of Winne I think one of the schools. Anyway, >> yes.

[00:45:33]>> There were three items on those agendas that had particularly to do with Camel Smart. her own salary, the size and location of where she worked, and whether or not she would be teaching in school on special.

[00:45:45]>> Right.

[00:45:45]>> Correct.

[00:45:47]>> Now, you talked to us about a time when you spoke to Pam on May 1st, correct?

[00:45:56]>> Yes.

[00:45:56]>> At that point in time, she indicated that she thought about the changes in the media center and was no longer in agreement with them. No, I don't think I I believe that was discussed earlier. I believe that was uh discussed with me anyway on Monday the 30th of April after the uh plans for the revision have been mailed out on Friday.

[00:46:17]>> Okay. That's what I meant to talk about.

[00:46:19]I'm sorry.

[00:46:21]At that point in time, this is one day before mid. Okay.

[00:46:25]>> Um she comes to you and says, >> "No, >> you come to her."

[00:46:29]>> No.

[00:46:30]>> Sorry. My assistant superintendent came to me and said, "We better do something because Mrs. Smart is reigging on going along with this proposal."

[00:46:37]>> Okay.

[00:46:38]>> That's when I called the meeting for the M for Tuesday morning.

[00:46:41]>> Okay. Now, the reason when you said your assistant principal said he's reaging is because shortly before this, there had been a meeting where Pam said she would go along with these proposed changes. My assistant principal is an assistant superintendent with a civil engineering degree and he had laid out the plans in the basement relative to maximize the use and to maximize the space and so he had worked with Pam very closely on that. How many times they had met and talked I have no idea.

[00:47:11]>> Okay. But you know or you did know anyway I hope you still know that as close to this time as a week before she had agreed with his recommendations.

[00:47:22]Yes.

[00:47:22]>> Okay. So, a week before April 30th would have been >> Well, no, wait. I'm again, I'm not sure that those are questions you would have to ask Mr. Engelbach. I am not sure it was a week before or 3 days before uh exactly when. I know that the plans were finalized and sent out to the joint board members on that Friday preceding the 30th. Uh I'm sure that an agreement had to be reached prior to that time, but exactly when I do not know.

[00:47:48]>> Okay. Do you recall, and I I appreciate this is a year ago, do you recall talking to a detective charitz from the Nashville police at some point in time, >> Nashville?

[00:47:58]>> I'm sorry, Derek.

[00:48:00]>> Yes, I do.

[00:48:02]>> Um, do you recall telling him that him and um your assistant had talked about this about a week before and that was the amount of time?

[00:48:12]>> If I said that to him, that's what I said, right? About a week. I'm just asking because I'm going to show you a report in this page 412. Again, I'm just asking you help to remember. If you don't remember, say it.

[00:48:27]I should tell you where it is. I'm sorry.

[00:48:31]If I may, I'm pointing down about a third of the way down the page.

[00:48:58]That would seem logic. Why? I'm not sure. I spoke to him on August 10th at that number. I spoke with a detective on August 10th.

[00:49:09]>> Okay. Um, does that help you remember?

[00:49:12]>> Yeah. I would talk to him. I'm trying to get >> when Pam agreed to these changes. Is that about a week before?

[00:49:19]>> And it says that this was about one week prior to May 1st.

[00:49:22]>> Okay. And again, a week prior to May 1st would have been the 23rd 24th.

[00:49:28]>> It would have been that week of uh some time probably during the week of April 23rd.

[00:49:34]>> Right. Yeah.

[00:49:34]>> Okay.

[00:49:35]>> When I don't know. Now the last previous meeting of the board had been what the 12th.

[00:49:44]>> The last previous meeting of the administration operation committee had been uh April 12th.

[00:49:52]>> Okay. Now between the 12th and the 23rd and 24th is 11 or 12 days. Correct.

[00:50:01]>> That would that would do it.

[00:50:03]>> Still with me. Okay. Yeah.

[00:50:04]>> So 11 or 12 days after that meeting on the 12th, Pamela Smart was saying she didn't have any problem with the media center.

[00:50:10]>> That's my understanding.

[00:50:12]>> Okay. Nothing.

[00:50:16]>> Couple questions here.

[00:50:19]Now you talked about Dr. the reutilization of the space in the SA21 building. Is that correct?

[00:50:29]>> Yes.

[00:50:29]>> It wasn't just the media center that was going to be affected. It was the whole building. Is that correct?

[00:50:34]>> Well, it was going the Yes. The the whole building would have been impacted.

[00:50:40]Uh the space in the basement had to be reconstructed to provide offices for those people performing financial functions. If you visited that building, you understand all financial functions are performed on the upper floor where it's open access to anyone and everyone who walks in, which is somewhat difficult when performing those functions.

[00:51:04]>> Was there anybody affected from the financial part of your building was at that meeting?

[00:51:10]>> No.

[00:51:11]>> Now, you also testified about on cross-examination about the salary that would have was considered at the April 12th meeting. Would that be something that was discussed in executive session?

[00:51:24]>> I think it was. I I believe the minutes would indicate that it was discussed in executive session.

[00:51:29]>> Would the defendant been part of that executive session?

[00:51:31]>> No.

[00:51:32]>> No further questions. I just have >> Would you please state your name so that everyone in the jury could hear?

[00:52:03]This is the coworker Bruce Doobie of Greg Smart. See what he thinks of old Greg.

[00:52:10]>> Please spell your last name for the reporter.

[00:52:12]>> Bruce Doobie Dub. And I work for Metropolitan Insurance out of Nsha.

[00:52:17]>> Where do you live, Mr. Dubie?

[00:52:18]>> Hudson, New Hampshire.

[00:52:20]>> And you said you work for Metropolitan Life?

[00:52:22]>> Yes.

[00:52:22]>> And how long have you been working for Metropolitan Life?

[00:52:25]>> Just about 3 years.

[00:52:26]>> Are you married?

[00:52:27]>> Yes.

[00:52:28]>> Any children?

[00:52:29]>> Yes, three.

[00:52:30]And what is your job in Metropolitan like?

[00:52:33]>> I'm the associate manager for Metropolitan.

[00:52:36]>> How long have you been associate manager? Uh >> about a year and a half.

[00:52:40]>> Do you know Gregory Smart?

[00:52:41]>> Yes.

[00:52:42]>> How did you know Gregory Smart?

[00:52:44]>> Greg and I both started probably about a month apart. Um and then after we was there a couple of months, we started the year 1989. We worked side by side together. We did like a joint venture for the year working on different cases.

[00:52:56]>> And when did you start working? I started in October of 88.

[00:53:01]>> Is that the same time Greg started?

[00:53:02]>> He started around November.

[00:53:04]>> And how long did you do this joint partnership together?

[00:53:06]>> One full year.

[00:53:08]>> And what point did that stop?

[00:53:10]>> The end of '89. December of '89.

[00:53:12]>> So January of 1990.

[00:53:15]You were doing what?

[00:53:16]>> Went on cuz I got promoted to the associate manager position for Metropolitan.

[00:53:21]>> And you both worked out of the Nashville office?

[00:53:23]>> Yes.

[00:53:23]>> And do you still work out of the Nashville office?

[00:53:25]>> Yes.

[00:53:26]Now, does Metropolitan Life offer any courses for sales?

[00:53:30]>> Yeah, they offer when you first go into Met, they send you away to a >> Now, this was backwards cuz this is the first dude, right? This sounds like the MetLife Insurance investig What?

[00:53:52]Oh, did this guy not say his name was Bruce Doobie?

[00:53:56]Do they have the names messed up down here?

[00:53:58]>> Uh, they call a career success school, which is the first once you're into MET, they send you away for a week where they give you initial training into insurance. Once you're there for a year and you have a certain amount of production, they'll send you away to another school called intermediate school, which is business planning and such.

[00:54:12]>> Okay. Now, I don't think I made this clear. You and Greg when we started out were selling.

[00:54:16]>> Yes.

[00:54:17]>> Essentially selling life insurance.

[00:54:18]>> Correct.

[00:54:19]>> Now, in the spring of 1990, did you attend any such courses?

[00:54:24]>> So, hold on.

[00:54:27]Okay. Hold on.

[00:54:29]We're metropolitan.

[00:54:30]>> This is Bruce. But did they get the name the the Cuz this guy sounds like the MetLife insurance investigator maybe. Okay. Oh, so wait.

[00:54:43]>> Yeah, we had a business school that Metropolitan sent us to Warwick for for one week.

[00:54:48]>> When you say Warick, we war island.

[00:54:50]>> And what was the week that you went to Warwick, Rhode Island?

[00:54:53]>> It was the last week of April.

[00:54:54]>> Do you know the dates?

[00:54:56]>> I believe it's like the 23rd to the 28th.

[00:54:59]>> And what day did you arrive? Sunday to Monday.

[00:55:02]>> I arrived on a Sunday evening cuz I had gone down to Pennsylvania for the weekend and I dropped my wife off there for the week. So, I met Greg at the hotel. It was probably about 8:00 on Sunday evening.

[00:55:12]>> And did you and Greg have separate a room? Share a room?

[00:55:16]>> We shared a room.

[00:55:17]>> And for that >> Whoa. Hold on. All right. Props to this lady, dude. She's already doing well with it. This is the move. Holy [ __ ] Uh, this is the move. This is 100% the move to make right here. This is her.

[00:55:34]I can't even say her last name. Julie Triskin. I'm glad I could take one for the team with NBC on summer break.

[00:55:41]Thanks for the memes, internet. Hope you'll stick around for the reporting.

[00:55:45]That's how you do it.

[00:55:48]That's how you do it.

[00:55:51]Okay. Props to her, dude. Lean, you got to lean into the [ __ ] memes, dude.

[00:55:56]Like if you don't lean into the internet like that, they will eat you alive.

[00:56:00]Props to her, dude. That's awesome. All right, I'll see you, girl.

[00:56:05]>> The following week, how long were you in Iowa?

[00:56:09]>> From Sunday evening until we split up on Friday afternoon about 1:00.

[00:56:13]>> And each day, what was going on?

[00:56:16]>> We get up in the morning, we'd go out to breakfast.

[00:56:18]>> I guesses.

[00:56:20]>> Yes.

[00:56:21]>> Okay. And were you present for the entire week?

[00:56:24]>> Yes. And was Greg Schm for the entire week?

[00:56:27]>> Yeah.

[00:56:30]>> I'd like to show you what's >> been marked as states exhibit 43.

[00:56:38]In fact, you can mark this as a full exhibit at this time. It's been agreed by Okay. Yeah, I think that's what was confusing me. I was like, wait. But yeah. Okay.

[00:56:51]I'm like, huh?

[00:57:01]I ask you to take a look at this.

[00:57:07]>> You recognize this?

[00:57:09]>> Yes.

[00:57:10]>> What do you recognize it to be?

[00:57:12]>> Well, Metropolitan gives all the reps at the beginning of every year what they call it's a weekly a year-long planner.

[00:57:18]It helps you to on tax end number one let you keep track of your mileage. The second of all, it keeps you track of all your appointments throughout the year and you can mark down how you do on the appointments whether you have, you know, if you sold a policy, whether they have to reschedule to go back and such.

[00:57:31]>> Are you required to keep such a plan for a month?

[00:57:34]>> They advise you to. It's not required.

[00:57:36]That one particular year, Metropolitan wanted everybody to mail in a weekly a weekly copy of the schedule so management can stay on top to make sure you were doing what you're supposed to be doing and that you correct any problems you may have in the selling areas.

[00:57:50]And you know whose state plan this is?

[00:57:53]>> Well, if I look at what's included in here is what they call X05s, which tells you about the different policies sold in the house.

[00:58:02]And everybody's assigned an agency when you go to Metropolitan. That's Greg's agency on these pieces of paper here.

[00:58:10]Um, I can tell Greg's writing and there's a couple of cases Greg's Greg and I had carried over from 1989 into 1980, I'm sorry, 1990 that we worked together on still >> the writing that's inside these plan.

[00:58:24]You recognize that writing, as Marks?

[00:58:26]>> Yes.

[00:58:27]>> When was the last time you saw this plan?

[00:58:31]>> Was probably I'm going to Well, the day that he was that we had found out that morning about what had happened. And when you found out that Greg had been killed, what did you do?

[00:58:42]>> I think everybody in the office was a little bit upset. Uh we took it upon ourselves to like rope off the area where where Greg had sat so nobody would wouldn't touch anything.

[00:58:51]>> And where was this date planner at that time?

[00:58:54]>> It was on his desk.

[00:58:56]>> And you know what happened to that date planner?

[00:58:59]>> Uh it was kept on his desk until the Derry police came by and picked it up.

[00:59:02]They went through everything on his desk.

[00:59:04]>> And you know gave it to the Daring police department.

[00:59:08]>> I believe I did.

[00:59:10]>> Now, besides Greg's trip to April of 19 in 1990, sorry. Besides Greg's trip in April to Rhode Island 1990, were you aware of any absences that Greg had in other absences Greg had in the late winter spring of 1990?

[00:59:26]>> He had gone away on a ski trip up to uh Canada with some friends of his from Florida that had flown up.

[00:59:32]>> You know when that trip was?

[00:59:33]>> It was some time during the month of February.

[00:59:45]for the question. Just a few questions.

[00:59:48]Morning.

[00:59:49]>> Morning.

[00:59:51]>> A long time.

[00:59:52]>> Yeah.

[00:59:53]>> Um when you have an appointment out in the field, um they don't always happen on time. Is that correct?

[01:00:00]>> Right.

[01:00:01]>> Okay. Um, would you tell the people in the jury things that might happen, you know, interfere with an appointment happening on time?

[01:00:07]>> Well, sometimes the client's not there or the client's running late or you could be running late from the last appointment you had because, you know, you kind of judge them probably an hour to an hour and a half of time to spend with the client. Sometimes it runs over, sometimes it runs shorter.

[01:00:20]>> They said the time will vary depending on the person and how many questions they have and they talk and stuff.

[01:00:25]>> Correct.

[01:00:26]>> Okay. Um, so when you have an appointment, you can never really be sure one of your it's going to be kept and two, how long it's going to go.

[01:00:34]Correct.

[01:00:35]>> So you can estimate some time, >> right? But I mean, you'd never be sure, >> right?

[01:00:40]>> And on those appointments there, it says when they starting time for the appointments, it doesn't say when it's going to get over, >> right?

[01:00:47]>> Um, just one more thing I want to ask you about. Um, when you were down in the war, there was an evening when young woman sort of threw herself at Greg or came on to him to some degree. That's right.

[01:01:02]>> I'm not sure if he she threw herself.

[01:01:04]>> That was the wrong word. I'm sorry. Um, acted in a way that would indicate she was attracted to him, I guess.

[01:01:10]>> Mhm.

[01:01:10]>> Okay. Greg resisted, >> right?

[01:01:13]>> That correct? He didn't have anything to do with that one, >> right? Did he tell you the reason he resisted was because he was in love with his wife?

[01:01:21]>> If he told you, >> I think he, you know, I I think that at times if if you know there's an opportunity arises with anybody that some woman, you know, is attracted to you in his case, I think he the more he thought about it, I think he changed his mind. Nothing happened.

[01:01:39]>> Okay. He didn't he didn't do >> he didn't do anything.

[01:01:41]>> Didn't do anything that woman even though he had the opportunity.

[01:01:44]>> Correct. Thank you.

[01:01:51]Boom. All right.

[01:01:56]Just want to see what next. An hour with Sarah Thompson and Ralph Welch. Billy Billy Flynn's friends Sarah and Ralph who turned in the three teens. Whoa. We got some good people. Okay. All right.

[01:02:09]We'll start that next week and hopefully we'll start a little bit earlier, more on time next week. Um, I was up to like 3 in the morning. Um, which is probably also a little bit why I was moving real slow this morning. So, boom. Afton coming through here. Morning. I hope you're doing well. Happy Memorial Day.

[01:02:31]Um, yeah. Hope everyone has a great Memorial Day. Uh, I got a buddy coming over tonight. Yeah, my wrestling stream. This is going to take you into the next wrestling stream, but that's actually I postponed that till tomorrow at 6:00. Uh just tonight I got a buddy coming over.

[01:02:45]We're going to watch a wrestling thing and um eat some barbecue. Actually excited about that. So, and we'll keep on trucking on this next week. Keep eyes on everything. Should be a Tuesday show. Should be a book club.

[01:02:59]Also, we're currently reading um Mountain of the Dead on the book club.

[01:03:02]Only way you can do that is if you're a Buzz Nation member.

[01:03:06]Um, but yeah, hope everyone has a great Sunday. I got to go shopping. I go get some extra stuff for said barbecue.

[01:03:15]Um, yeah, I I I was going to try to do the wrestling show also, but I was like, man, that's just too much. I just need to chill. Just slow her down, Buzz.

[01:03:25]Yeah. Nope. No, not tonight. But we are coming through. I'm going to still do that show because we're starting a brand new territory in a brand new year right now. So, I'm doing that tomorrow.

[01:03:35]Tomorrow at 6 Eastern will be the wrestling stream. So, dude, that book is awesome. I'm really enjoying Mountain of the Dead. It's really good. Like, it's super interesting. Um, right up my alley, quite frankly. Really, really good.

[01:03:53]Yeah, we've been putting in some time on that. We're already I mean, it ain't even going to be that long. We've only got like three or four hours left of it.

[01:04:00]We've already crushed six chapters. A few times I've gotten to do multiple chapters because some of them are short.

[01:04:04]So, I like it. It's It's good. It's interesting. It's a mystery. Like, I don't have a clue what the hell's going on. So, um, but yes. Yeah, I did find where we're going, Zimmy. I'm not even going to say anything out loud, but you know, if you you can go there and see you can definitely go there and see what's happening next if you'd like. I do have it listed and up.

[01:04:31]um some wrestling I've never seen before also I'm excited about.

[01:04:38]Um but yeah guys, thank y'all so much.

[01:04:40]You guys are the best. If you're cooking out, eat something good. Uh otherwise, I'll see you guys soon. Later, guys.

[01:04:52]>> Nothing to see here.