Justice Madlanga GRILLS TMPD Director Tshukudu Malatji | Tense Cross-Examination

Añadido: 2026-05-01

[00:00:01]Had everything been done properly, would it have been within your remit to cancel?

[00:00:09]>> If everything >> had been done properly, but now there was a need to cancel, would it have been within your remit to cancel? Would it >> If everything was >> Would you have had the power to cancel?

[00:00:24]If the need to cancel arose, >> I would I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't I would have advised the the the the the department responsible right to cancel because if everything if everything was done properly right it wouldn't have reached a point where uh there is actual an issue whether they must be cancelled or not. But in this instance, right the let me let me now now according to you everything had been done improperly.

[00:01:09]Why not advise the department concerned to cancel exactly because everything had been done improperly. If you could advise when everything had been done properly, why not also advise if something had been done improperly?

[00:01:31]I I I I want to understand your reasoning. Okay.

[00:01:37]By the way, I made a mention of the fact that at a point when Miss Ribos piece was giving me this instruction, right?

[00:01:46]This matter was receiving attention at a higher level and the level at which Mr. Spe was sitting right. So I I looked at my apologies. I looked at his approach and I realized I convinced myself I'm still convinced he wanted to throw me under the bus. I'm saying this because >> by saying cancel by saying cancel >> by saying cancel because >> why why why would you get under the bus if someone says >> no no he wondered >> just just just a minute if according to you >> yes >> there was something wrong >> why would it take you under the bus if you simply canled aren't you actually assisting your employer the city if you cancel something that was done improperly in the context of his instruction he said cancel all ADOC services right hence in my earlier submission before the commission right before even going into the system and confirming and all of that I said right it wouldn't have been possible to cancel all of them because not all of them were h having the same problem >> did you cancel any? Did you cancel any then >> at that point in time? No, I did not.

[00:03:18]>> Weren't Weren't some even according to what you've just said, weren't some uh done improperly, >> commissioner? Let me say this >> and just answer the question directly.

[00:03:32]Were some not done improperly according to you?

[00:03:36]>> I'm not I'm not aware of some that were not done properly. You have just said not all of them had uh been done improperly.

[00:03:48]>> Yes.

[00:03:48]>> Implicit in that is that some had been some had been done improperly. That's how I understand what you what you are saying. No.

[00:03:57]>> Now if you are if you say that >> uh the implication being that there was nothing that matter with some. So my question is why not cancel those that you had no problem with or those that you are not saying there was any impropriety with regard to them. Why not cancel those?

[00:04:20]The instruction commissioner was cancel all and I knew it was not it was not all of them. It was GIS and this GIS I could not have it cancelled because it was not instructed by me to deploy. In actual fact, let me put the record straight.

[00:04:46]Commissioner, this instruction was >> it was it was exactly it was exactly because of this reference to who the instruction came from that right at the beginning I asked you would it have been within your power to cancel? Would it have been within your remit to cancel?

[00:05:05]>> Yes.

[00:05:06]>> Hence I wonder and I asked that exactly because you keep saying um you are not the one who gave the instruction. You may not have given the instruction but if you have the power to cancel you could and should have cancelled regardless of whether or not you gave it gave the instruction. So the anticident question is the question I asked earlier which is did you have the power to cancel I said >> did you or did you not uh >> no in this respect I did not have the power >> I did not have the power to cancel. Yes.

[00:05:45]Okay. But anyway, um um Mrs. Skakan, I think, uh we've been derailed because I think what the focus of the testimony at this stage, if I'm not mistaken, is about the inception, >> the the start of all this and not the tail end, which is the cancellation. Am I mistaken?

[00:06:11]>> Ch.

[00:06:11]>> I may be mistaken. I may. But I thought I thought I thought we at this stage the focus I'm not saying it was not to get here at some point but I thought at this stage it's about the inception or the beginning >> of the Yes. I I suppose what we went through was the uh just uh we got caught up in the issue of the the discussion around the quant quantum and what was supposed to happen but I'll I'll I'll let Mr. Director Malatti to continue safe to just pick on one issue maybe one question and then I'll let him continue.

[00:06:50]Director Malachi, as I understand it, we have to deal with the evidence as we see it.

[00:06:59]And it does not appear at any point in the evidence and the one that you've supplemented with that you either responded directly to to Commissioner Spe or anyone about the termination of ADHD service.

[00:07:17]Could I correct what they he said he responded but when I asked for and when I asked the director to take us to the documents uh showing his response he says he said he does not have them here.

[00:07:38]>> Yes. So however they do exist.

[00:07:43]>> Come again.

[00:07:44]>> I'm saying they do exist. You did uh >> yes uh to the first email right uh fund transfer please provide where have been develop >> in terms of where adults are deployed and whatever the case may be.

[00:08:13]>> Right. That's fine. Please proceed with your statement. They'll ask me a question later on.

[00:08:25]>> You had paragraph five of your statement. You were taking us through those annexes.

[00:08:41]My statement you said is page 34.

[00:08:46]Okay.

[00:08:48]All right.

[00:08:50]Yes, we were we're on paragraph 4. I think we've deliberated much on emails and communications detailing executive discussions.

[00:09:02]Number two, email response to Nandul regarding his complaint that uh 13 requisitions were created without invoices.

[00:09:28]In this in this in this case, I made a follow-up with my my team and uh they responded to director Nandul about these 13 requisitions and they went as far is saying to me in their view they couldn't they couldn't create this uh requisitions without attaching emails as I wanted to know how this process uh works. They said they do not have a function that they use that is used all right to create purchase requisitions without emails. I mean without without uh invoices but it is director and staff who have got that uh function on the subsystem and they went further to say when they inquired later when they made a followup with director Nandulas office. It came to light that those requisitions were eventually cancelled right on the system. But since I'm not uh familiar with the the subsystem and not you know I relied much on what they are they are telling me and I think they even said it is it is it is it is possible for the commission to verify that maybe by by by by going back to director Nandulis and find out exactly uh the status quo as as as as it stands right now.

[00:12:08]But further than that, I personally found it very difficult to talk to this.

[00:12:17]The long and short of it is that my department responded to director Nandul with an email in which they were talking to the their language. I'm I'm not I'm not conversant with uh their administrative language in that space and uh these scenes are of course functions that as we speak currently performed within the environment of director and so I'm not hands on when it comes to that but from my office right uh I I I I I I must put it on record before the commission that invoices are submitted for further handling of which federal handling would include creation of purchase requisitions and POS going forward.

[00:13:22]But let me stop at that. I think I've explained based on information