Even Heretics Deserve Rituals, with Jeremy Steele

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:01]There's no reason that all of these things have to be controlled by a system that is trying to build you out of money or tell you you're going to hell or or whatever. Like, we own this. Humanity owns this.

[00:00:25]>> Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen.

[00:00:27]>> And I'm Dan Beecher. And this is data over dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

[00:00:38]How are things today, Dan? Things are good uh here in Salt Lake City, but uh more importantly, things are going to be good in the DC metro area because we get to talk to a guest. Uh this is a this is a one of the rare instances of a a returning champion. Yes, >> we mostly get turned down when we say, "Would you like to come back on the show?"

[00:00:59]>> Absolutely not. I will never come back on your show. No. Uh today we are we have Jeremy Steel joining us uh to to talk about his new book, which just it's hot off the presses.

[00:01:12]>> Hot off the presses.

[00:01:13]>> Coming in. Coming in hot and steamy. Uh Jeremy, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:19]>> Thanks so much. Hot and steamy like a a pile of um Like a pile of book. Like a pile of >> a pile of book.

[00:01:29]>> Yeah. Um so why don't we why why don't we talk a little bit about that book?

[00:01:35]The book itself is called Rituals for Heretics.

[00:01:39]>> Rituals for Heretics. That's that's the thing. I I am I'm actually a certified heretic. I've been certified by uh commenters on social media.

[00:01:49]>> No, I I thought you were going to say Universal Life Church does that now, too. Oh jeez.

[00:01:55]>> I got a when I was in undergrad, I like back in the >> uh ' 90s, that's when it first started.

[00:02:03]And I was in a Bible class. And so I I went online and signed up so that I could be Reverend.

[00:02:09]>> Yeah.

[00:02:10]>> And then I started >> putting on my papers Reverend Jeremy Steel. And the guy was like, the professor was like, "This isn't this isn't uh appropriate." And I was like, "No, I actually am." And I gave them the the certificate. He's like, "I guess it means nothing now."

[00:02:24]>> Yeah.

[00:02:25]>> Yeah.

[00:02:26]>> I was I was in undergrad, too, when I was ordained in the Universal Life Church. So, I wanted to be able to marry people if for whatever reason someone was like, "That guy, that's the guy I need."

[00:02:37]>> You just wanted to be prepared.

[00:02:39]>> Yeah.

[00:02:39]>> I I literally I missed my opportunity because for a while Universal Life Church and this is just the sort of fake church that everybody can go. It's real like it's it's it's registered as a church. Yeah.

[00:02:51]>> But it but like uh they you know they if you want to be able to marry someone they will ordain you for just for for money.

[00:03:00]>> Yeah. Like 30 bucks or something like that.

[00:03:03]>> For a while they were offering doctorate in divinity.

[00:03:08]>> Yeah.

[00:03:08]>> Uh degrees. And I should have just gotten it while I you know it cost a little extra. And I really I should have just nailed that down while I could so I could just be a a so I could be Dr. Dan.

[00:03:21]And >> then then you would be it would be basically like Dr. James White and Dr. Kenth Hovind where you have sent away for your PhD. Yeah.

[00:03:31]>> I got it on the ground floor. It was free when I when I signed up. You only had to pay if you wanted them to mail you a certificate.

[00:03:39]>> Oh, okay.

[00:03:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the uh so I I I thought that was so much fun to get that certificate. I wish I still had it. I don't know where it is, but I need to make a like a I need to do a video on Universal Life Church.

[00:03:53]>> Yeah. And and like you should you could put it like next to your Oxford diploma, >> right?

[00:03:59]>> Well, you know, I I tell people, look, I've got five degrees. I have four degrees related to biblical studies and then I've got a vocational degree. I have a massage therapy vocational degree which I did before any of my other degrees and like I'm just as proud of that degree as I am as of the other four and >> and yet you've never given me a massage and for that I like I missed out when I was there last time. Jeez, I could have been like I had a massage from Dan Mlelen. That's right. There are there are there are a list of people who can say this and I'm I'm on a very small list of people who has done yoga with Emanuel Tove. So, uh like I know how fun it is to be on these lists, but we're not here to talk about >> we're not here to talk about our lists though.

[00:04:50]>> I'm really Look, we here's the problem. you. We all had an amazing fun uh very personable discussion that got into places like drag queens and you know all all sorts you know karaoke and everything >> and and uh my Taylor Swift song original >> and your Taylor Swift song uh >> and seeing an assault with a deadly sandwich also.

[00:05:14]>> Yes, I was right there. You were there.

[00:05:15]You were present for that and all of our patrons who are above the uh the $10 a month level can go and hear that right now. going to say age of 21, but yeah, that's >> and probably uh you might want, you know, parental guidance is advised, but and I mean it's worth it just for drag queen reviews of the drag queen in Salt Salt Lake City. Like it's worth it just for that.

[00:05:39]>> Do you remember the name of the drag queen that that you were talking about?

[00:05:42]>> No, no, no. I'm I'm trying to steer us away from that conversation.

[00:05:46]>> Sorry. Sorry. We we we don't want to we don't want to blow >> Leave Leave them wanting more. That's >> That's right. So, so if you want any of that, become one of our patrons or if you're already a patron, get head on over there uh after this. But we're here to talk about your book. Uh which I'm actually one of the things that we did talk about in the patrons only thing was the fact that you have this community online of sort of uh it can be anybody.

[00:06:11]You call it not church. Uh it's something that people can go and check out. It's a discord thing. Uh and that's cool. And I realized that between that which is a community which is one of the things that religion really offers and does an excellent job of is creating community >> and the other thing that rit that that uh religion also offers and and that is really important to a lot of people is ritual >> and that's where your new book comes in.

[00:06:42]So let's talk about ritual. Tell me about why this book seemed important to you, why you wanted to do this book.

[00:06:49]>> Yeah. So for millennia, humans have been meeting psychological needs through religious ritual for millennia, right? So that means it's been being refined for millennia. And when things didn't work or didn't connect, they would not last, right? And so, uh, religious rituals and meditation practices represent a huge mass of human knowledge. And, um, and you know, they have been studied by legitimate scientists. And it it turns out it actually is true which is not surprising because of the the long development but that these rituals uh do have very positive and real psychological effects and benefits. The problem is that when you are, you know, traumatized by the church, when you leave your faith, you don't have faith, uh, you don't have a a religious identity at all or you're not sure what you believe. Generally, you don't engage in religious ritual. And what that means is that you lose out on this huge mass of human knowledge. And um and so I, you know, in my work online, I am the skeptic pastor, but when I say pastor, I I really mean that like people can go on and schedule one-on-one pastoral Zoom calls with me. I think between like September and December, I did like 50 of them.

[00:08:26]>> To be clear, you're more than it's this is more than just the universal life thing. You're an actual like I'm ordained in the United Methodist Church, but I my goal is to help people find spiritual beliefs and practices that work for them wherever they find them, right? I don't you don't have to be a Christian or like whatever. But I have these Zoom calls mostly with people who have uh have been hurt by church, you know, left religious organizations, are I hate the term, but deconstructing or are um are spiritual curious atheist >> um or agnostics. And and the more that I um that I engaged with those people, the the more it felt like like I was offering them um rituals that were not that I I removed the God part from and and that's what I do in the work uh in the book. I take rituals and meditation practices from all kinds of different religions. I remove the God part and I keep the the methodology and the psychological work that's being done so that people can put whatever they believe or don't believe about God uh into the book into the the ritual.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah. Uh, talk to me a bit about the because I I I can hear the idea the like some people might say if you take God out of the ritual then uh is the ritual even does it even have any meaning anymore because this ritual was meant to be in church you know we're talking about something like the eukarist or something like uh you know uh lighting candles for saints or any any of these sort of ritual things that happen in a church in a synagogue.

[00:10:25]in a in a you know mosque or whatever.

[00:10:28]Does does removing God or or the religious context uh how does it change it and uh and and what is it what is it still doing?

[00:10:40]>> Yeah. I I think that's a really great people ask that um all the time about this about this book. And you know the thing is is that whether or not you believe in God, right, the the actions the the physical actions that are taking place in these rituals or the the method behind uh the meditation practice uh those all still function psychologically, right?

[00:11:10]And um and so each chapter actually there's a little bit of an intro of like this is the religious background. Often there's there's multiple religions uh that have similar practices, right? And then there's a like psychological explanation of like what's going on uh in the brain. Uh and um and so if you like to read uh words like parasympathetic nervous system, you will really love that part. Um and so what I say is that like the god part, whatever you believe about spirituality, um that can add a dimension. It can add uh labels to what's happening. Um but it doesn't change what's happening >> because what's happening is is happening in your brain.

[00:12:06]>> Yeah.

[00:12:07]>> Um at least I mean I'm a I'm a skeptic so like I like science. Like if fine if you want to say it changes what's happening great. But >> yeah. Well, there's a there's a sense in which what religion is doing, this thing that we've labeled religion, is kind of appropriating features of our evolutionarily installed cognitive architecture.

[00:12:28]>> And and what that does is that for a long time that has drawn a line around it saying this is the purview of religion and that has drove driven droven >> drove drove is right. Yes. drive it driven um droves of people uh away. And so now there's there's kind of a um a stigma on these, not to appeal to a religious word, but but there's um there's a a sense in which this is not what you do unless you are religious, but I I got the sense that what you're trying to do here is reclaim for a a more intentional, more informed um audience who who might find value in these practices that can be kind of a can function as kind of a um you know psychological self-care and but there is one thing I did want to sorry I I interrupted no you're fine no >> well I was the the one thing that I did notice that also seemed to have been >> um from which these these rituals have been divested that I wanted to ask you about and particularly in relation to some of these rituals which are which come from very communal >> contexts and which are which function primarily communally particularly the meal um ritual thing like that you you're talking um the book is instructions for an individual to do this all by themselves for the most part I at least I don't recall having read anything where they were like get in a group of of like-minded individuals um what what can you say about the role of community or communalism to the the functionality of some of these rituals like the sharing the meal thing and things like that >> No for sure and and actually there are there is I there's a couple of Um, one of them that is uh uh coming up for me is the uh the offenda and the diio deos mueras ritual.

[00:14:25]>> Um where you bring people to create the aphrena and you share stories.

[00:14:32]>> Um so uh yeah I think part of what what is any of these things can be done with other people. Um, but my what I was hoping is that I didn't want to put any barrier between somebody um I I really hope this is there's like a sense of play to this >> like trying things out, enjoying things.

[00:15:02]If you want to do it with somebody, great. But I didn't want you to say like, well, I can't do this because I don't have somebody. I'm I live alone.

[00:15:10]Because the other thing that like if you're saying like grab a group of friends and they're like I am alone and my life is horrible. Thank you for reminding me of that and making this contingent on me not feeling lonely.

[00:15:25]>> Well, that was that was something I kept thinking about the last time we were together. We talked quite a bit about the fact that we have a lot of folks in our audience where they are within a community that does not want them or within a community where they cannot be their authentic selves or they cannot express >> these kinds of thoughts. So, so that was coming to mind. I realize your target audience might have a higher percentage of of folks without access to that kind of thing. So, so I that was what I was wondering you if you were going to say, but you it sounded like you had more to say.

[00:15:56]>> Yeah. And I well I think to the it's there's a sense of when people a lot of places where people are their whole social system is built around um is built around this church or religious peace and so um many of the people that I talk to they they don't feel like it is safe to ask the questions or say they don't believe things and definitely wouldn't feel safe like you know trying to reenact a hoodoo ritual, right? Um and so like I was try I'm trying to be sensitive to that.

[00:16:35]>> Um but the other thing that's really I I found really in interesting that I I didn't anticipate um >> well the probably the most heretical uh thing that I do is I adapt the Eucharist, the communion ritual. And uh and so there's this there's this form that it follows. The words change from tradition to tradition, but there's like a welcome, there's a a confession of your sins, and there's this sacred meal.

[00:17:10]And in most Christian traditions, the theology around communion is a theology of connection. That um through consuming this bread and wine or juice or whatever, uh you are connected through the Jesus, not just to Jesus, but to every Christian who ever was or ever will be. Right? that >> Jesus is this sort of unifying force but but the the modality is through uh food right >> and it's a sense of connection so as I was like reading thinking um researching the sort of psychological pieces um I I came to this epiphany really um where if food is the is the method. Um the food actually is inherently connecting >> because we will die. Our atoms will become dirt and then grass will you know plants will grow and some of those plants we will eat and some of the animals we may choose to eat will eat the plants. Then we will eat those things. They those molecules become part of our bo bodies. Then we will do all over again. And and when you really sort of think deeply about that connection, um that connection actually demands accountability, right? That we need to use our molecules to try to make things better for the people that will come after us. And so, uh so the ritual does that. It has this sort of welcome. It has this where have I gotten off track? Like where am I not using my life to make the world a better place? Then there's the the food ritual.

[00:19:12]And so I did this in a live stream um uh several times over and and one of the my friends who actually happens to be a pagan high priest was grew up as a as a Christian. Um, I feel like the the Christian to pagan high priest pathway is probably really well traveled. But anyway, he was on the he was on a live stream and like I said, he grew up Christian and he texted me afterwards and we had this long conversation about um how healing that was for him, >> right? That was such an important part of his life and his experience of the divine for so many years. But the Jesus stuff, the blood stuff, the violent stuff, all of that, you know, was triggering and made it completely inaccessible to him. But >> when it was redone in this way, he was like, I needed that. that brought me so much healing from all of that to realize like, oh, no, no, no, there is something really important in here that I can still access. So, yeah, that was something I wasn't anticipating. M um >> there's a very baby and bathwater uh question here where it's like >> where where you know when when someone leaves a religion or when they consider uh a religion from an outsider persp or from a from a more outside perspective uh it's hard to know which parts because it's such a big thing you know yeah >> I was raised uh in the LDS tradition and Mormonism >> has it it it's It's part of so many parts of your life. It is it it you know you're you're expected to go not just on Sundays and in my day it was three hours on Sundays. Now now they're now it's a bunch of pansies. They're all just doing two hours.

[00:21:15]>> Uh >> well you hear about the new change. No the second hour is split in half.

[00:21:20]>> Yeah. So >> yeah it's a it's it's a walk in the park these days. But it was it was 3 hours then and then you had midweek stuff that you were doing and you had other thing you had you know callings that you were supposed to do and it ended up and it was so when you leave you don't know which parts of it necessarily made you feel good and which parts of it made you feel bad because it's just a sort of monolith. So I think that it's very interesting this this idea of like let's let's see if some of this was actually >> uh you know of value.

[00:21:54]>> Mhm. even though it's associated with some things that I I no longer uh can connect with. And I thought one of the things that I liked about your book I wanted and I wanted to get to was this idea of this is not a book that you read so much as it is a book that you do.

[00:22:11]>> Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> And uh and you know I I read through uh a whole bunch I didn't read through I will be honest I didn't read through all of the rituals.

[00:22:20]>> Yeah. Please don't that that's exhausting. I'm allowed to do that, but yeah, don't do it in one sitting because it's not the kind of thing because because that's not how >> it's more of a reference work than it is a novel. You're not >> Yeah. Yeah. And and so like literally you go through and there are things you know I really appreciated for instance uh one of your rituals is about uh you know you live in a place that holds pain for you whether you experienced a loss there or you experienced abuse there or you experienced something you know there's a if you have a space uh you know that holds that kind of pain you have a ritual for that and and yeah if you feel disconnected from the world you have a ritual for that talk about the doing and uh and and how it feels to do because >> the other thing is it will feel weird to do a lot of these things.

[00:23:13]>> So talk talk about the doing of of ritual.

[00:23:17]>> Yeah. And I so one of the things that I think um is a barrier for some people is there's a sense that religious ritual has to be done in this very serious way, >> right? That you're going to wear robes and there's there's going to be high ceilings and you know stained glass or whatever. Um, and I think that uh the if you are engaging ritual in that like super serious way, what can be kind of weird, it can get even weirder.

[00:23:58]>> Yeah.

[00:23:58]>> Right. Um, but if you're engaging it like you might engage listening to a piece of music or um trying out drawing, right? Yeah, you know, you try out drawing and it really kind of sucks, but you kind of enjoyed the experience, but you weren't good at it. Um, uh, approaching with this sense of like this is going to be fun.

[00:24:24]>> This is kind of this is different. I don't do this normally.

[00:24:27]>> Um, I think that's a huge part of it.

[00:24:29]So, like one of the things that you talked about, and this is a a ritual that I the people that have tried it and and responded to me have had a really positive experience with it, is the the place that holds pain. Mhm.

[00:24:44]>> Um and it's based in a practice called smudging where um and this is in a lot of different religions, but basically you're burning dried sage or something and the and you're the smoke is part of it. But but the whole the whole ritual psychologically is incredibly powerful because um the the smell is important, the moving is important, the saying of these things out loud is important. Um and and all of that. Uh, so so basically what you do is you stand at the threshold and you light the smokey thing and um and you say like um you say something. Let me just see. I've got it right here. Why why do I need to why do I need to make >> page 27? Go to page 27.

[00:25:35]>> That's right. This uh this smoke carries away what no longer belongs here. And you don't have to think like, oh, it's literally carrying it away. But like it's a symbol.

[00:25:48]>> Yeah.

[00:25:49]>> Right. I I I this is what I want. I want these bad things to get out of here like the smoke that's going to go out of the window. And then you go to the different places that hold pain and you name the pain.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah.

[00:26:03]>> In the place. That is incredibly powerful. that that activates this in a potent way with the smell and the whole experience because a lot of times when there's pain it gets stuck it gets sort of stored in the emotional side of the brain and um and that is that is a huge part of what therapists work on in in PTSD work. So you go through and you do that, then you come back to the threshold again and um and then at that point you you start a different movement with it where um where you say, you know, like um I'm going to welcome this new stuff in. And then you go back to the places where you just name those things and you name what you want, right? like let this room hold softness or like let this kitchen feed joy. And you go around and you do it again. You do it again. Then you end up back at the threshold and you say like let the new begin.

[00:27:08]And this can have the same kind of effect um that uh something called EMDR, which is the sort of gold standard for dealing with PTSD in that it can help move begin to move those memories from this emotional side over to the logical side. It's not a replacement for EMDR. I would never say anything like that, but it it's doing the same thing um in the brain. And if you approach it by like thinking of it in these literal terms like I'm gonna believe that the smoke is literally taking away like that's weird.

[00:27:44]>> That's weird as hell.

[00:27:45]>> Well, that's an ENDR therapy. It's like okay you where are you feeling that in your body? And you try to localize it and then come up with something that to you is going to make it feel like you're removing it from your body. like I'm going to take a deep breath and blow it out or I'm going to >> and then you and then you move your eyes back and forth and you have this bilateral stimulation >> that actually it's so crazy and it's hard but really really amazingly powerful.

[00:28:15]>> Well, I wanted to touch on something. I I was going to kind of save this idea and maybe bring it in, but you've said the word literal a number of times.

[00:28:24]Don't take it literally or blah blah.

[00:28:26]>> And one of the things that I wanted to to push you on a little bit.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah, please do. I love this >> is that I Okay, I'm uh I I have ADHD. I I am likely on the spectrum.

[00:28:39]>> Same.

[00:28:40]>> I also have what's called aphantasia, which is that I can't see images in I don't have a mind's eye. I don't >> I'm I am telling you >> fascinating.

[00:28:52]>> None of this stuff really work really connects for me. Well, like I'm not a I I am not the ideal uh audience for ritual stuff >> in part because the ADHD part of me >> loses the plot quickly for sure.

[00:29:07]>> The the the tism part of me doesn't like takes wants everything to be more literal. Like I have all of these things working against me with this sort of thing.

[00:29:18]>> And I was thinking about it and I what I realized is that I do have rituals in my life. There are certain you I do New York Times games every morning and like you know what I mean like there's a >> right >> there's various things that are still ritual but what I realized about this is that >> it is ritual in this case is a technology >> and and like it's the way that you interface with it that's important and not every piece of the technology is going to work the same for everybody, >> right? And that's why in the book, each each ritual has a page of like, how are you going to change this? Like I changed it. I like took the god out of it. Like there's a there's a place where for you to constantly be like, "This was [ __ ] I hated this, but this was really cool. I'd like to." Right.

[00:30:09]>> Um uh because I I hear you. But you know, and the other thing that I think >> that's really I like your the aantasia.

[00:30:16]I'm I'm learning something new today.

[00:30:18]that I I don't mean to throw that at you. You haven't had time to think about that one, but it does make it does because the the latter half of your book is is meditations.

[00:30:28]>> Oh, and that's Yeah, that's >> and that's right out the window for me.

[00:30:30]Like that's >> for sure.

[00:30:32]>> Yeah. But I think another thing that um that religion and ritual does is it creates a a pattern of life and reminders for you, >> right? And so one of the things is I think about the muza ritual that's in there. So like the in the Jewish faith like you put the passage from Deuteronomy in this like fancy thing.

[00:30:55]You put it on the door and you touch it on your way in and on your way out. And it's this idea of like remembering who you are.

[00:31:02]>> Um and so in the ritual in the book uh you sort of write down some things that you want to be and you put it at a threshold. Either you want to put on the wall fine. You want to put it on the rug doesn't matter. The idea is that whenever you cross that threshold, you pause for a second and try to remember like wait like reenter. I want to be this person. These are the things.

[00:31:23]>> Um and it and it's really about uh a reminder or a pattern and like a physical artifact in your life that helps you helps remind you uh what you want to be. like the sticky note on your dashboard.

[00:31:43]>> Yeah. I I think that's really interesting and I think that that I one of the things that I really appreciate about your book is what you were just talking about. The fact that it is you're not saying here's how you do this ritual. It's the only way to do this ritual. If you do it a different way, you're doing it wrong.

[00:32:02]>> Yeah. You will go to hell if you do it differently.

[00:32:04]>> RIGHT. BUT THAT'S HOW WE'RE USED TO hearing about rituals. You know what I mean? Like the way ritual is presented to most of us is here's this ritual that we've been doing since time immemorial and if you don't do it this way then probably hell you know what I mean like probably something really bad >> because uh because these rituals are sacred and holy. Um, >> so I do think I I think that giving ourselves permission to uh to just take these as a launch point >> Yeah.

[00:32:40]>> is a it seems like a particularly useful idea.

[00:32:44]>> Yeah. And I I feel like I just want it to be like a pallet. I I I want it to be like a toy room or a playground, right?

[00:32:52]Get on the equipment, see what you like.

[00:32:54]If the thing that spins you around makes you want to puke, just like you don't have to get on it again, >> right?

[00:32:59]>> Um but if you love if you love the slide, like just keep going down the slide. Go down over and over again.

[00:33:06]>> Yeah.

[00:33:06]>> And I think there's there's also a degree to which some of these things may not really resonate with someone unless they're in a situation where they've experienced something that might bring up uh might put them in a state where one of these things might be psychologically um helpful for them. I'm I'm thinking of the the the show The Pit.

[00:33:26]>> Uh the don't know if you guys have watched the the very first season. Uh there's a there a brother and a sister and their father is is dying and they've made the decision to allow him to die and they're in they're in the room with him where it happens >> and and the the Dr. Robbie, the main character, asks if they're religious and like, "No, no." And he's like, "Well, anyway, there's this thing called uh in Hawaiian culture, hoop ponop pono, where you say these four things." And he's like, "I've seen people say these four things when someone is leaving, shuffling off this mortal coil, so to speak." And he's like, >> "And it has seemed to be helpful." And so in that situation and and it was even a variation. It wasn't exactly what the hoop ponop pono um prayer or um thing is, but it was the it was uh I love you, thank you, I forgive you, please forgive me. And uh and then they they narrativeize how the the brother and the sister each go through that process. But that was something that's not going to be relevant to them at any other time in their life until suddenly they're in a situation where this is this can be remarkably helpful for them. Um, and and so I imagine that that some of the stuff in this in this book could be uh quite helpful for people who maybe they haven't gone through these things yet, but maybe at some point they'll find themselves uh in a situation where where this can be soothing, this can be healing, uh, or this can allow them to, you know, go out and find something that they've been looking for for a long time.

[00:35:00]>> Yeah. I can tell you one of the things that really it was really the the impetus to start doing the work um was one of my friends is a Mexican American and they're dual citizen Mexico in the United States and um and Dio de Muertos was coming up.

[00:35:23]mentioned this and they invited me to and a couple of other people to create an offenda and we brought you know the picture of our loved one. We brought food that was meaningful to them and um we lit candles and there's all this beautiful imagery with the mirrorolds and the butterflies and all of the like uh skulls and everything and you know you bring them into the space and so like why do you have Diet Coke with peanuts in it, right? and you get to tell stories and >> and I love I love the way that it it like pulls stories into the room and and you know whenever we whenever we talk about loved ones that have passed I don't know there is a a deeply spiritual sensation that I get like I am bringing them into the room not literally that's [ __ ] but like I'm sharing that person with another person and I don't know and so at the end of that like it was very intense experience for me I was like >> okay this this is a thing um and that that's in the book >> yeah that part of my doctoral dissertation was looking into bererements and how how survivors um experience the presence of deceased loved ones and what kinds of material media they might use to try to presence their loved ones. And that's like that's not it's it's a an actual like studyable, discernable, datadriven, we can tell that the mind is generating a sense of presence. And it is because even when we are in someone's presence, it's not just us receiving passively >> um stimuli, our mind is projecting the experience of that stimuli as much as it's interpreting it. And so it's a very real process. It is not make believe.

[00:37:36]Now that doesn't mean that this is something external to the mind. It is it is internal to the mind. But that kind of thing, those experiences can be healing. Those experiences can have a person experience something that they have needed to experience in order to be able to get closure, in order to be able to move on, in order to to feel like they have said their peace that was left unsaid or something like that. So, so yeah, absolutely. That's it's I I think we because again, religion has appropriated so many of these things, we tend to feel like you cannot get the uh the patina of religion off of them. In reality, these are things that are just uh innate in all of us. Even if you um you know, even if psychologically you you feel like you're less sensitive or you're lacking a part or something like that, there are a lot of ways that uh that we can still participate in all these kinds of of kind of deep psychological processes uh and events.

[00:38:37]>> Yeah.

[00:38:37]>> Yeah. I I you know one of the things that I want you I remember reading I I don't remember which ritual it was but I remember reading one of the rituals and you had put a little trigger warning on there and since we've got gotten deep into grief and we've we talked about the ritual that was about >> pain in a place and stuff I think maybe we should talk a little bit about uh there there might be danger in just going in willy-nilly on some of these things without prepping yourself.

[00:39:09]>> Yeah. You know, I I don't I'm curious which one that was. I can't I can't recall exactly which one it was, but >> I don't remember either.

[00:39:17]>> Um sorry, I should be more prepared.

[00:39:20]>> Yeah. You know, I think I think part of it is um it's why I named the rituals the way I did >> um instead of saying a muza adaptation.

[00:39:34]>> Yeah.

[00:39:35]um because it knows it helps you know what it's about what you're going to be engaging in at least at the basic level so that if you're like I can't I can't go there right I'm in a state of grief I can't think about that then you can you can skip that um >> uh but yeah like uh these things are are like I said they're they're psychologically powerful and and they can bring up real real feelings, real experiences.

[00:40:12]And um but I think that in a in a structured way.

[00:40:22]>> Yeah.

[00:40:23]>> Right. where you're not just opening yourself up to do whatever. There's like we're going to go through whatever this is and there's a method. Um though I would say like everybody needs therapist. Like if you don't have a therapist, what the hell? like go get a therapist because um because it's possible that you you go through something like this and it brings up stuff that you didn't realize >> because I think one of the things that that was clear when I was sort of researching ritual in general is that one of the things is there are things that you're like subconscious mind is needs tries to bubble up right and especially with meditation um you're uh it it sort of occupies the conscious mind in a way that allows the subconscious to to bubble things up.

[00:41:21]Like guided imagery meditation is really fascinating, Dan. Sorry. But um but you know really good guided imagery meditation um leads you know opens up the creativity opens up the imagination and leads to moments where that can be filled in right by by the subconscious >> and um so like one of the ones uh is like you're searching for something and you can't find it. We never name what you're searching for. And uh and there's like a a compendion you sense with you along your way. And then you you it leads you to this moment where you find a box and you open it up and the question is like what's in the box?

[00:42:10]And your brain puts something in the box. Um and then you flip it up and there's something written on the inside of the on the lid of the box. What's written there? Uh I I was doing this with somebody over Zoom and um you know in the box was this uh this paintbrush >> and um and then written on the inside of the box was this phrase when she was a kid. She went to her church to help with vacation Bible school and they were painting her and this old lady were painting sets and she felt like she messed it up. And the the lady said, you know, um you know, you uh it's only messed up if you stop painting.

[00:43:00]>> You can always keep painting or something like that. And like she was in a moment in her life where she felt like she had messed up and she felt like quitting and like like just this defeist and like that that that was what she her subconscious needed to communicate to help her get through that. Um and uh yeah, but I I don't know. I'm just the brain is so fascinating to me.

[00:43:29]>> Yeah.

[00:43:30]>> Yeah.

[00:43:30]>> I think Yeah. And I I think, you know, I I wanted to bring up a little warning, you know, trigger warning thing that like if it's too intense, you probably should be careful. But like also, you're right that this is a structured thing.

[00:43:43]So it's so it's it's an interesting way to access things that we don't necessarily access.

[00:43:51]>> Mhm. through just sort of sitting and thinking about it or >> right >> you know you just a lot a lot of times uh we especially in modern society we forget how to inject intentionality into how we address >> important things.

[00:44:10]>> Yeah.

[00:44:11]>> And I think this gives a a vehicle for uh for injecting that intentionality into into life.

[00:44:18]>> Yeah. That's it.

[00:44:19]>> Yeah. There was no question there. I should have ended I should have thrown a question on at the end of that but uh but yeah I it's what I appreciated about this was that it was you know and maybe you should talk a little bit about uh the fact you know you mentioned how you steal the Eucharist and you talk about how you uh you you you sort of modify smudging which is a which originally is a Native American uh sort of idea. I, by the way, I'm going to take a little sorry. I'm going to detour just a little bit and tell you a story about a time that I was in a >> a a witch store here in Salt Lake.

[00:44:58]>> I love that. Yes. I love a good occult shop.

[00:45:01]>> Sure. Sure. Uh and I overheard a a conversation between the the proprietor of this store and one of her customers, and they were just talking, you know, cuz they sell like bundles of sage so that you can smudge or whatever. And one of the women was just like, "Well, I, you know, I get these people and they come in and they just want to smudge everything and they just don't realize that they are, it's like a nuclear bomb.

[00:45:28]They're getting rid of all of the energy and blah blah blah." And it was very funny to me. I, you know, I don't have any magical beliefs. I'm not a I'm not a person who believes in sort of uh any kind of uh >> magic thinking of any kind. And so was So that was really funny. And I always kind of I I try not to, you know, sniff and and roll my eyes at right at people who do this, but it was so great for you to come in with uh smudging as and just say, "No, there's not you're not you're not doing something magical here. You're doing something psychological here." And that that was helpful. But also, I I can hear a lot of our uh very liberal listeners thinking to themselves, what what about appropriation? What what what about that?

[00:46:23]>> Yeah, that's fair. And I, you know, as I was getting started with this, I I had a couple of conversations with uh people of different religious traditions asking them like this question um about appropriation because I I am a liberal snowflake. I don't want to be appropriating other cultures. Um and and and what I the response that they gave me and of course they're also liberal snowflake Jewish people or whatever like uh we we're all in the same um same tribe as far as that's concerned is well one of them said it feels to me like what you were trying to do is give access to this truth that we have worked on for all these years to everybody.

[00:47:21]And I think that we would I would be happy if somebody uh tried this thing in a way that made it accessible to them.

[00:47:33]And then another person, they were like nothing that we do is actually unique.

[00:47:42]They they said this is human knowledge, right? Like smudging, it's first nations, it's hudoo, it's voodoo. You talk about a sacred meal, communion and Christianity, but that the sacred meal is everywhere.

[00:47:56]>> Um ancestor veneration, you there's not one group of people that gets to claim ancestor veneration, right? And so that person was like, I think what you're doing is you are you taking a meta view and and trying to to take all of this practice and make it accessible. He's like, I wouldn't feel like you were appropriating my my faith. Um uh so yeah I but at the same time uh it's a valid it's a valid push back and I I own that and for me it's it was worth taking that risk in order to give access to this human knowledge to people who who um who who would have lost it. Well, and if we do, you know, if if if me calling it a technology earlier is valid, then you know what you're doing is just iterating on a technology. You know, that's what we do as humans. We take we take what we have access to and we say, how do we make this work well for us or better or you know, how we we do we we modify things. So, taking the culture out of it. Well, basically what I'm hearing you say is I'm the Steve Jobs of Ritual, and I appreciate that.

[00:49:20]>> That's literally it. That's exactly >> I'm I'm glad you chose Jobs and not uh you know, not uh >> the more recent guy.

[00:49:30]>> One of the other >> Oh, no, no, no.

[00:49:32]>> Yeah. Musk or something. Anyway, >> also I more of a Jobs than a Waznjak, but you know, >> that's I can totally see you in a turtleneck. I can uh it makes sense.

[00:49:44]Um, yeah. So, so what are what are you hoping? What's what's as our, you know, as our listeners and and viewers consider going out and buying this thing, which we're going to tell you how to do. Uh, it's I mean, it's available everywhere, but but you should do it through Jeremy's website cuz uh, no, for sure.

[00:50:02]>> It's the best way to do it. But, but what what's your hope as this thing goes out into the world?

[00:50:08]I just I just want people to be able to to access this into play, right? To uh there's there's no reason that that all of these things have to be controlled by a system that is trying to bulk you out of money or, you know, tell you you're going to hell or or whatever. Like, we own this. humanity owns this. And so, uh, I just hope that it can free this from the the systems of, um, of control that have tried to to keep all of this as their own. Um, and uh, and let people, I don't know, have fun and maybe find some life in it and maybe laugh at themselves as they're walking around with sage in their house, right? Um, yeah, >> I love it. I love it. Uh, keep keep your rituals playful, everybody.

[00:51:16]Uh well, and Dan, unless you have anything else, I think uh I think that that's a great place to uh to button this. Let's talk about >> We should talk about uh Jeremy's website, skepticpastor.com.

[00:51:29]If you would like a signed copy of his book and some [ __ ] little stickers that he that he will send you.

[00:51:38]>> God is not a white man. Uh deconstruction isn't a phase. Karen, I've also got a dad joke. Uh, I survived deconstruction and all I got with this was this sticker, >> right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:51]>> Yeah. So, that'll come along with the with the signed copy of the book if you're a skeptic pastor.com.

[00:51:57]>> Do my darnest to try to remember to put a link to that in the show notes. So, you should be able to see that in your show notes. Um, >> otherwise it's available where you know where you get books. So, >> right, wherever that is >> like bookshop.org.

[00:52:12]which everybody should try. It's like Amazon, but you choose your local bookstore and they're the ones who get the profit instead of some massive corporation that's ruining the planet.

[00:52:24]>> Oh, I love that. I love that. All right.

[00:52:26]Uh go out and do a ritual, everybody. Uh Jeremy Steel, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you coming on and and chatting with us.

[00:52:34]>> Absolutely. Next time I'm in Salt Lake City, you've got to go to the drag show with me.

[00:52:38]>> We're doing it. We're And we we'll do the karaoke as well. Uh, it'll it'll be a lot of fun. We'll make Dan do karaoke.

[00:52:44]That'll be fun.

[00:52:45]>> Oh, I I got booed off the stage last time I did karaoke. So, >> that's what we're shooting for, baby. If you listen, karaoke is a ritual. It is a sacred practice.

[00:52:54]>> A ritual. Yes. And you are not allow.

[00:52:56]And karaoke is not about singing. Well, anybody who tells anyone who tells you different is uh just doesn't understand what what it's about.

[00:53:04]>> All right. Uh that's it for today, friends. If you would like to hear more of Jeremy and hear our wild conversation, uh, please be consider becoming a patron of the show. Uh, and also, will you guys consider sharing this episode with someone who you think might benefit from some uh some ritual for them? Uh, anyway, you can go over to patreon.com/data overdogma to to join in. By the way, uh, we should also mention that we launched our website. You can go to uh data overdogmapod.com and uh there's some merch there that you can go and check out and uh and and there's also other stuff. It's it's still kind of in process, but uh please enjoy and uh and do that. Thanks so much to uh Roger for editing the show. Thanks to JJ for being our producer. Thanks to Sam for being our uh our web guru as well as our YouTube dude. We appreciate all of you and thanks to all of you all for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next time. Bye everybody.