The trial exposes a disturbing vulnerability in the judicial system where administrative manipulation can easily compromise the pursuit of objective truth. It serves as a sobering reminder that without rigorous evidentiary integrity, the courtroom risks becoming a theater for manufactured narratives.
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Senzo Meyiwa Murder Trial:IO for Nongoma cas163/10/2018, Mshololo The truth is difficult to swallowAdded:
Yes, sir. What's up, guys?
>> Yes.
>> This DJ will kick the floor in 3 3 2 1.
>> It had to go there.
It had to go there. Greetings to everyone.
We are here. H We are here to do what we need to do. Mhm.
>> Yeah. 17.
>> Okay.
I don't think we've ever had >> such a breakthrough >> in a long while except for Lishaban of course, but I think he is more fearless. I don't know whether it's because he's coming from KZN and he's from the political killings test team or what, but he's he's a refreshing witness. That's all I can say.
>> He stands his ground. He means what he says. He says what he means. I saw the judge there trying to intimidate him more than once, trying to make him change his statement. He remained with the facts that he knows and that he's come to court with.
>> He didn't budge. So that was very refreshing. It was very refreshing. It's been so long since we had a witness like that. The words of advocate.
Let us not protect the evidence.
Let's speak facts.
Let us not conceal the truth.
>> Let us speak facts. Let us not hide behind certain gimmicks.
Let us speak facts.
>> That's what said >> this case that referred us to doesn't exist.
M >> whether it's difficult to swallow, it is the truth.
>> I'm sure is just as fed up as most of us. I'm tired, guys. When I say that I'm tired, I am tired.
I don't know what this judge and the state where they are going and where they are headed, but this this should be enough to dismiss the case. But guess what? He's not going to do it.
>> No, he's not.
>> Is supposed to set Danzi free because he was kidnapped. We've been saying all along that they kidnapped that young man. They kidnapped him and wasted six years of his life.
>> And people think we're crazy.
>> Yes.
>> He's he was kidnapped during lockdown by the cops, the cold case unit.
>> Yes.
>> That case does not exist, you guys. It doesn't exist. It was created, manufactured, fabricated. It doesn't exist.
Yeah, >> it's a new case. And then they they told us to to focus on other stuff because this is what is it? What do they use for this case? They said it's classified.
>> They said it's classified.
>> Confidential.
>> Confidential.
Gago. They're referring to, you know, when you get arrested and your ID and your personal information gets run through that system >> to see if it's going to pick up any cases that are related to your name.
>> That is what they mean when they say confidential.
>> That just meaning pulling of his record.
M >> and I I can bet you there's nothing now after hearing how they managed to embroil this nong case and make and accused on a case that was already closed >> that was finalized.
>> Not only that they added to that case they recreated the whole thing.
They added murder.
>> The desperation of it all.
>> They added murder >> just to ruin someone's life.
>> It's the desperation and also coupled with a bit of what we can term as stupidity.
You go and photocopy the document.
>> You photocopy the whole doghead.
You don't have decency of reading it so that you understand that what this do is all about to certain extent that you end up recreating your own new case. rebranding under the same case number >> which is another case that was consolidated into this case >> of >> they can't even understand the files of SAPS >> and whatnot so and so will come and testify.
>> It's just a shame. It's a shame.
>> Not only have they wasted someone's time, >> they are even failing on their own stuff.
>> They are failing to copy their own stuff. And then you go to court, then you find a judge that >> entertains the >> entertains the mess.
You find a charge that is disagreeing with everything and it tells you it's the law.
vilified and threatened. When I would say a threat at the time I interpreted it as a threat and it still is the threat when he pulled from the system the case record of this nong case. Do you remember that you guys >> he pulled the first page that had the accused as >> we must which we we find out that is who >> the other name >> tell me how on earth let me take off this jacket because it gets hot when you talk about this tell me >> sure guys >> tell me.
Tell me why would accuse number one confess about Mima and Marcos and we are told it's a mistake or we are told it's it was a lie >> that he lied. He was he was he was is taking them to what they call it what a >> misleading >> misleading a wild what >> wild goose chase >> goose chase right >> people he doesn't know >> of people he does not know and then tell me why we later find Danzi being called >> when is getting arrested >> when he's getting arrested.
>> They did refer to him as Buthi. That's what Dani said in his testimony that they called me Butles. I had to take out my ID to show them that I'm not Butles.
>> These guys, >> they still kidnapped him. Either way, that was a kidnapping. There's no sugar coating it now.
There's no sugar coating it. We cannot is right. We cannot we cannot keep e e doing this. It's it's it feels wrong. It feels wrong to water down what these people did to Danzi.
It was a kidnapping during lockdown.
They took him on a case that doesn't exist and they locked him at a across districts. They take him from Rastinburg. They're telling him you have a case from Nong. They're not taking him to Nong the following day to stand before the magistrate. No, no, no, no.
They're keeping him in pritori >> questioning him which even the police that is there in that court is asking that question.
Why is this person because this person was in transistor?
>> Yes.
>> Why was he not transported to KZN the following day?
Why was he not transported to KZN the following day?
Even even the office is perplexed.
>> Prosecutor comes in.
What he says? He says uh uh the case was was was was not put on a role. The the the prosecutor refused.
He's even >> adding evidence.
>> Adding evidence. This Madala, he's even adding evidence. is quoting the very same evidence that he's always bragging about listening. Wrong.
>> Wrong.
>> This Madala, >> I I knew it was wrong.
>> This man >> I just left a question mark next to it, but I'm like I didn't hear such evidence.
>> This man disgraceful.
Disgraceful.
Disgusting.
What is going on with this man? What is going on with this madala?
>> He can't even hide his emotions. He can't He can't hide it anymore.
It's so embarrassing.
What the shame.
How are you going to explain this that there's a judge who interferes while the the defense council is is presenting their evidence is leading a witness that they called. He interjects and he goes to La La Land in his interjections with wrong information.
Not only that, he's defending Moani's incompetence.
He's defending it.
>> I don't know the word whether the word incompetence is befitting on this one.
>> I think the word that would fit the situation is cramping, >> fabrication.
That's the word.
>> Did you also notice that as he was filling in the OB, he also got the nonga case wrong?
>> Yes.
>> 10 of 2018, he's writing nong case 1636 of 2018.
>> I hope he's proud where he is as he runs and does everything. I hope he's proud.
of the work that he has done. When he's sitting and watching, he's like, "Yeah, I used to work for cold case team.
You know, I was the best in this. I was the best cook."
There was also a a police officer who was testifying Madlanga Commission about General Sona and the toxic work relationship amongst them and being bullied and all of that these allegations that he made. The man said I wanted my coffee machine.
Let me tell you how wrecked on him from him wanting his coffee machine. He was taken through liar detector tests. He was team.
>> Hello, Zanzi.
>> Mr. Anu, how are you?
>> I'm good. And you?
>> I'm okay, man. No, I wanted to correct.
She used the wrong word there.
>> So, thank you so much um for that correction.
I thought you were saying um um um um he he's defending like fraud. M >> no incompetence you can you can be smart but that is you being incompetent.
>> Yes.
>> That is something else.
>> Yeah.
>> Amen. I was so head um that um um um he exchange between um >> as he assumes that he's the oldest man living in this earth.
>> Even when defense is um like on the podium, he can't drop the pen. calm defense right away.
>> Thank you, sir.
>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Right.
Let us start. Let us start.
>> All right.
Okay. Let us start. Oh my god.
Today I have to be very quick.
Okay. So yeah, canal BT Kumalo Bongani Timothy Kumalo is his full name and his CV he said that he was enlisted in the SAPS in 1990, January the 6th. He became a constable in from 1990 to 1996. 1996 is when he started being an investigator and working on investigations and um from war officer to becoming a captain uh he said he stayed quiet for some time because he was promoted to the rank of a captain in 2015. So from 1998 to 2015 there was no promotion. That was sure a long time.
>> M >> and then he said he became a left and kennel this year 1st of March 2026 and he's been a detective since 1996 till date. He has been in the service for 36 years attached to KZ and taxi violence unit and the unit that is at provincial level. Also, Rama asked him, "Let us uh come and meet or to the meat of why we called you here. Are you familiar with the Nonga case 16310 of 2018?" And Kumalo said, "Yes, I am." He said he was it was allocated to him to investigate um you know, he gave the background of how this case came about. He said during 2018 in October they were busy with investigations of murder cases in Guanonga but then he was in the PKTT the political killings test team.
>> Yeah.
And while they were doing investigations, he was approached by Warren offic.
He's originally from the Tixie violence unit as well. And he asked him to assist him to arrest a certain suspect who was wanted in this matter. So the reason why he was asking them is because they were in Nong on a daily basis and that is the reason why he asked them to get uh for him the suspect and according to the J50 he provided to him the suspect was now with a few days because they had an informer that was around the area. So the informer gave them information that the person that they were looking for uh he pointed to them. He was a little bit uh far but then he said that that is the person he pointed and said that they are looking this is the person you're looking for. So Rama asked him that J50 warrant of arrest for warrant officer beta was it in respect of which case?
and Kumalo said that it was in respect of a murder case that took place in 2016 and uh in the area of Nong and um Kumalo was asked to proceed. He said then uh them as members of the team or members of the combat it was NIU and TRT. Then they rushed to the suspect and apprehended him.
So after arresting him the suspect was found in possession of a firearm. Upon questioning him, he failed to show or produce a license uh to possess such and as a result, the suspect was then taken to Guanonga police station. Uh he was processed there and consequently he appeared in court for possession of an licensed firearm. Mr. Anonymous, I think you you can allow some of the calls.
>> That's my phone.
>> Oh, it's personal stuff. It's personal stuff, but someone from your subscribers is calling my phone.
>> Guys, try the other numbers. Please, those ones, they are no longer being used anymore.
>> Let's continue.
>> Then Ramos said in relation to the Nonga case 16310 of 2018, were there any other additional charges except for the firearm offenses for which Mr. Ginselan Bles was arrested? And Kumalo said, not at all, my lord. He was charged in possession of firearm and ammunition.
Now Rama said during my interaction with you in preparation of you coming to testify in this honorable court I requested you to bring along the original case do head of nong case 163 uh 10 of 2018 and Ramos said after consulting with muni there said just one aspect this possession of unlawful uh firearm of what case number is that and kumalo said it's nong 163 10 of 28 2018 Rama said you've testified that you are in possession of the original Nong case 16310 of 2018. Now here's the issue.
>> Hello.
>> Hi. How are you?
>> Good evening. I'm good, thanks. I'm good. Thanks. Sorry to call in before.
Yeah, I just wanted to chip in there. Uh I have been following a couple of cases and uh the judge that we have for the Sentinia trial is so appalling. Uh he's I think he is just stepping onto the arena himself. I think there was one different lawyer that says it previously that he's actually stepping into the arena and he is doing it so evidently he's not even hiding it. And I've got a couple of concerns that I have which I think Muni tried to um address on one of his uh objections because he is not ruling on the objections. He's just like listening which therefore uh like if it goes to appeal there won't be any ruling that can be said against it.
So I think the defense lawyers needs to continue asking him to rule on those objections because he's just keeping quiet on most of them and not ruling. I think uh with the case that is open like this and he is also seeing that everything is being exposed and what they did is also getting exposed because he's coming up with his 1965 issues that curses will not be registered. We are now in the 21st century era that cases have to be registered for ease of reference for tracking purposes >> and I'm not I did not study law but I believe that if a case is finalized it becomes public record.
>> So if that case the number case was public was finalized that means that it's now public record. Why is he then saying why is he saying that is uh is what was the word that he used >> confidential >> um is confidential or how is that confidential if it's something that is public record is is so I don't know what what that that that means uh we just need to get to a point where he steps out from the from the arena and let the the the case be exposed as it is that they fabricated said it previously that they cooked the case and the cooking is now coming out is now showing that whatever they were cooking is now like coming out to be uneatable and they need to face the consequences of whatever they did. You must not step into the arena.
>> That's all.
>> No, thank you Sabong. Right. Amen.
Quebec.
>> Well, Ramy police said you've testified that you are in possession of the original Nonga case 16310 of 2018. Now, here's the issue. Sergeant Muan and Brigadier Gininda testified that such a such a such a do was in their possession which is the unit headed by Brigadir Gininda, the national cold case unit. Do you know anything about that? And Kumalo said, "No, my lord. What I can say is that this case has never been a cold case. It was ongoing from 2018 up until it was finalized.
>> There are actual cold cases in the country. Why are they not dealing with them?
Why are they always hijacking other people's ongoing cases and investigations?
>> Yes, I don't know. And I've been saying this, I think they pick a wrong case. They pick a wrong case to nail these people.
You can't pick a case that is in case at end.
>> Oh, >> considering what the case and police are putting up front as this fight against the whole SAPS, it is not going to be easy for you to just walk and tell them what to do.
It is not going to happen. You know, you can have people h in Joberg uh and other provinces coming to actually clean their site but trying to protect there and there. The K and police I don't see them doing that.
Those that are reporting under General I don't see them doing that. You know, I I said it, if you remember, if you've been following, I said it. It's a wrong wrong wrong wrong.
>> Leave them KZ and police alone.
>> If you start cooking, remember >> to take out the pieces of the meat that are coming from Kazerin.
>> Yes.
>> Because you are going to suffer there.
You know, you're going to suffer. They are going to you see the guy the difference between all these police that have been called by Ramsey Bill the other ones are trying there and there to to to be nice you know somehow they are compromised. Yeah, they they cannot they cannot fully say it out loud, you know.
They they they they like there is no cell phone that was found in the cell, but they cannot say that, you know, Joberg that >> the president, >> the one that is testifying now. He says it >> a spade >> clear is even asking questions.
>> Yes. Why on earth do you take that person for investigation if you were taking this this person to quazar end you know that answer is not given the judge tries is found wondering also it's found short fails that that that's the difference >> that is the difference you know right now they are in a mood of fighting you can't use kesaran people no only if they in go back and they grew up from their mother's side. They miss their fathers.
Yeah. When I when I think about it, he's been added. Remember as Maya testifying about an April was taken before a magistrate at >> Keren and the Karen magistrate did what?
>> Dismissed, kicked him out. Get this person out of here before I arrest all of you >> for lying.
>> For lying >> and ran out of the court. He's been at it with KZN. Doesn't he understand that?
>> No. He's not going to have the grip that he wants.
>> They're different. They're not They're not the ones he's used to in >> Not when Donga is still alive. No. Not when Donga is still calling the shots.
No.
Rama said where there's been a stage where the docket was removed from your control and possession by any unit either than the unit that you were working for and Kumalo said my lord what I can elaborate since the suspect in this matter was also a suspect on another murder case it was taken and joined to this murder where the accused had a J50 soelani had a J54 another murder case that warrant officer was handling. And then uh when they when they went to arrest him or execute this J50, that's when they found him with possession of illegal firearm and ammunition. And he said it was 16 rounds. So they added that charge of illegal uh uh firearm and and and and no, they didn't add the charge. They opened a new charge for possession of illegal firearm as well as uh ammunition and they consolidated it with the murder charge >> with the J50 h warrant that they had executed coming from warrant officer's investigation.
>> Yeah.
>> So Rama said let's simplify it. Canel the firearm was found in possession.
Okay. I just simplified it. we can move on. So he asked him, so on top of your head, would you recall the case number from Do's investigation case? What case number was it? And he said it was nong 410 of 12 2016.
And they asked him now how's your explanation if I correctly understand is that Nong 16310 of 2018 and Nong 410 were consolidated together and they went to court together as one and the same.
And uh he said that's correctum.
Then Rama said to which court were these matters dealt with and it was dealt in the second high court in Tunzini. And in light of the proposition that I've put to you that Brigadier Gininda Sergeant Moani say that they also have a docket nong case 16310 of 2018. Do you know perhaps if left tenant kennel there was a duplicate docket because we are still going to get to the meat of this but I want to find out from you if there's a duplicate docket for the nonga case 16310 of 2018 which is in possession of firearm case and nong case 16310 of 2018 which is a murder case. Kumalo said my lord there is no duplicate for this matter unless if brigadir got the copies I don't know but the duplicate is only the original only and rama said and have you ever had sight of the national cold case units version of the doet that they have under nong case 16310 of 2018 kumalo said not at all my lord because this matter has never been a cold case do you have the original sheet of the nonga case 16310 of 2018 within that docket that you have and Kumalo said no I don't have the original chart sheet I have the docket the chart sheet I added it h at court then Rama simply said within the docket that you know it has the case administration from the system nong case 16310 of 2018 does it have any suspect by the name of Bongani and Kumalo said no it was only one suspect, the one that they found with a firearm. And Rama said, "Does that docket contain any witness statement implicating Bongani?"
Kumaro said, "Not at all, my lord. The statements that are there are the statements for policemen only. There's not even a single witness who mentioned the name of Nanzi." Yeah.
So I remember in his evidence when he was being led by Rama was it under cross- examination by the state where he said there there are no police officers that have come for him ever since he got arrested from Nong.
>> He's never attended any Nong matter.
There hasn't been police officers that have come to him even at Koshimuru to inquire about him being implicated in a nonoma case. There will be no police that will ever come with that nonsense.
It does not exist.
>> It doesn't exist. Now they want to water down exist. Now we have a judge that is playing around like a a a a small mouse move this way. Move this direction.
you know, it's someone who's just abusing in my opinion the the the the the laws that we have, you know, the experience you were gaining. I don't know whether it's for you to abuse the the the the laws that we have. I mean, how do you explain the situation like this? You have been working and you what does it mean? So you've been sitting on cases that don't have case numbers >> and which are those cases that don't have case numbers that you sat on >> the way he's defending you.
>> What are you saying Domala? What are you saying?
I mean at your age you are doing this at your age. You you you are playing around. H you >> he doesn't care. I man >> and and I must say this and I hope it happens.
I'm sure it's not wrong.
>> She's not >> this thing of of doing this and then coming back and apologizing. It makes this judge and he never apologizes.
>> No apologize. He'll be uh forcing apologies out from the defense.
>> Don't apologize. You are not wrong.
There's nothing wrong on what you said >> in the morning. they will be expecting an apology.
>> Don't don't you know even if they call you in chambers and say let's do this and whatn not don't. It sends a bad bad taste message to us because we know what you are saying is actually correct. And if you keep on apologizing, a person who's doing it, an 80year-old will not necessarily see that I'm actually wrong.
>> So please don't play with our hearts.
>> That's why I'm older than your father.
>> Don't play with our hearts. You must you must not apologize. The court must continue as usual. The judge had nasty words to say. So as Molo in a nice way retaliated properly and there's nothing wrong in what he said. She said >> there's >> don't apologize when >> then Rama said now left and kennel let's go deeper into this aspect. they'll give you for the sake of background so that we can be on the same page what has been testified here in court regarding the Nongma case 16310 of 2018.
Um and then Sergeant Muani testified that he started investigating the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 from January 2020.
Do you know anything about that? And Kumalo said no. um you know and it seems here that there has been an acknowledgment or rather a a one would how would one describe it? This case was still ongoing. It hadn't been concluded yet. He gave the date out to be the 25th of March 2022 when the case was officially finalized.
But here it seems like there was an attempt to hijack this case from him if really Muani was any bit of serious about implicating Danzi here because the case had not yet been finalized and here he was claiming that from 2020 he's been investigating investigating with whom what and why. while you're not even taken to the lead IO of the this this case that you seem to wanted to hijack, >> you know, to show how ruthless in my opinion these people are.
It's on freaking public television.
>> It is playing live.
you know as an IO who investigated this case of one 63 of uh 10 of 2018 >> of 2018.
You are watching people lie on you.
>> You know, you are watching people lie on the case that you investigated >> you know other police in case that any who have this docket because it went back to Wanong.
>> Yes, >> they are watching and they are like the hell what the hell?
I would imagine someone in the morning will come and say can you please check this case they are talking about on TV they saying it's coming from one say hello how are you how are you >> I'm all right sir >> sister Emil how are you >> I'm good how are you >> I'm fine I'm calling from Jordan um I think the problem is the the confessions Judge that is where his problem is cuz he accepted the confessions.
>> You understand?
>> Yes.
>> Now everything that is coming out now he throws everything into the bin. So now he's trying to find a way in which he can try to reconcile this you know like the way he was behaving today. He tried to intimidate that guy. I think three times today he tried to intimidate him trying to make him change his statement you know >> and the guy was standing his ground and it was an embarrassment >> really it was an embarrassment he said it was disgusting >> you understand yes >> and I wonder what the judge president >> if he was watching >> tell me about those people >> don't even start >> you know it's so embarrassing This is on national television and this thing is being worldwide.
>> Yes.
>> And you've got a judge said even if it is too hard for you to swallow. A fact is a fact. The case does not exist. Period.
>> They lied to you.
>> If the case was finalized, >> they lied to you.
>> If the case Exactly. If the case was finalized, why is it not on the system?
Why?
>> Because it's a because it's a what do we call it? It's a it's a classified case.
>> So it doesn't even classified >> only the police can see. Did you hear the explanation? Only the police can see. So the guy who's testifying is not the police.
That's how >> you know he said to the guy do you know that do you know that this could be danger I think that for a while said like Jesus what is this guy talking about I think it's um I think she should ask the judge as a matter of law can you give me the law that stipulates what you're saying can you support your your your statement by by No, >> the same way he was pushing.
>> Yes, >> exactly.
>> Ignoring the facts and the obvious that Mumalo mentioned that you allowed to do the very same thing.
>> Yes. To quote from >> Exactly. And then you know ignored it as like he never did that as the law is the law. I I the law you know you know that guy disgust me >> disgusting thank you >> thank you >> it's appalling >> what we are watching there it's like we we we we are watching an act series can't believe that we are subjected to such mediocre in in in the broad daylight >> what kind of a case is this >> you know high court it's a kangaroo court >> where people change his personality if they want their prosecutors if they want their judges if they want their fathers that are old >> don't remind me I he enters that arena that one he's a special one he enters deep inside the arena referring being doing everything that you can think of in the pitch inside.
Well, Ramy says Sergeant Muan and Brigadier Ginida testified that they discovered this case 16310 of 2018 amongst others of the cases that they said that Bongani Dani was involved during their profiling of Bongadi Sandisani and Sergeant Moani testified further that the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 and other alleged cases that Mr. Tantanzi was allegedly involved in were allocated to him for investigation by Brigadier Gininda. Do you have any knowledge of Sergeant Moani being tasked by Brigadier Gininda to investigate Bongani Sandi Sundanzi on the Nong case 16310 of 2018 for murder and Kumalo said I have no idea my lord 163 is not a murder case it's possession and furthermore there's a system in the police that they call a case administration system so this case administration system can show that this case never moved from a a uh uh anywhere until its finalization.
So if Moani or Sergeant Moani says he was investigated uh but on the system it doesn't show that. And then Ramilli said, "I'm so glad that you raised the issue of the case administration system. Uh the case administration system is going to take you through that at length so that we get to the bottom of this in due course. But at the moment, let us finalize these points. As an investigating officer of Nonga case 16310 of 2018, were you at any stage contacted by Brigadir Gininda or Sergeant Muani to discuss this case or to obtain copies of the docket in this matter? And Kumalo said, "My lord," at one stage I was approached by General Kumalo who is now head of crime intelligence nationally. But by then he was the one who was in charge of PKTT.
So he asked me to meet Briadir Gininda because Brigadier Gininda wanted to have information on this case of 163 H regarding the suspect. Now Ramipil asked which suspect in particular was Brigadier Ginira interested on in that Nong case 163 10 of 2018 and Kumar said it's the very same that now Brigadier Gininda is claiming not to know in his testimony.
So he wanted to find >> when was this the the this meeting?
>> Oh, he said it later on. He said around 2021 2022.
>> So Kumal was still with the PKTT in case that end in 2021 2022.
Yeah, I think so cuz he got to be head of crime intelligence around 2024 if I'm not mistaken. It's just I have to Google to verify but I think so he was still head of PKTT 2021 2022 because he's saying he was sick at the time he was on leave.
So yeah let me quickly continue.
>> Yes.
>> So he wanted to find out how he was arrested. How was the firearm? H according to me, he wanted to find out whether this firearm that we found with him is not linking somewhere in their matter. I don't know what matter he was referring to, but he wanted to check whether this firearm is not linking into their matter. So, he also wanted to find out if the firearm cannot be linked to Senzo's case in Samar.
He said when we met him, I think it was King Shaga airport because he was also waiting for a flight. So he only took the lab number if I can remember correctly because he wanted to do a comparison with ballistic so that um you know that was a very short meeting and we separated so Kumalo said he can't remember correctly but he received a call from Sergeant Moani by then he was already at Guanong so he was coming to look for the same docket of 16310 of 2018 so when they got into the case system it was discovered that the case is with himalo kumalo as an IO. So he asked asked him to provide him with the copies of the same docket of nonga 16310 of 2018 and asked him if he did oblige him with the copies and Kumalo said no my lord I told him that the docket was with advocate gaba because by then it was on the trial stage at high court. So I provided him with the number of gaba to provide him and arrange with him and uh Rama said and you wouldn't know whether the two interacted and what transpired between them. Is that correct? And Kumalo said I did learn later that they did communicate and they met. Kumalo confirmed to Ramasili that this is the same advocate Gaba that was at the Johannesburg High Court at some stage.
He's also um on the AKA case.
>> Yeah, he is. is also on Fedel Adams case. There was a quite a viral clip of him not so long ago narrating fail Adam's videos that he was making on social media.
It was very entertaining.
>> So PKTT seems to be working with this man advocate. It seems >> it seems. Yeah.
>> But then what made advocate GABA to be so compelled to give a whole Mi out of all people copies of this docket of 16310 of of of >> He's an NTA person.
>> Mhm.
>> Does that answer you?
>> Oh, maybe they they referenced and they're like it's wanted by the >> I can imagine.
Listen >> because has nothing to do with this case.
>> Listen to this.
I can imagine a certain call would have came.
Um uh hello advocate. Um advocate.
Uh look, we we we we just would like to send you someone. Uh he's not going to take that. do we just want to have a copy also so that we can see what we can do in our site. If if you feel that this might disturb you in your case um you can call Judge Gu uh and see what we can do.
Uh but uh please uh that person who's going to be coming there with the state car, please make sure that you you you assist that person, my friend. I will owe you one if you can do that.
So you get what I'm saying?
>> You get what you say?
>> Yeah. And then >> I get the gist. Then you would imagine a person such as then will be able to have access to that person.
>> Yeah. Okay. Fine.
>> Well say Mhani testified and was speaking specifically in relation to the arrest of Mr. Andani stated that on the 16th of June 2020 he attended upon gang h but it is freedom park phase 2 raenburg they attended upon the residence where Mr. Danzi was hiring.
They found Mr. ans introduced themselves. Well, I'm should scratch this cuz I don't think they introduced themselves and told him that they were there to arrest him on the nong matter which happens to be this nong case 16310 of 2018 and he says that when he arrested Bongan Tanzi he told him we arresting you regarding the nong case and he was a suspect in the case of murder in nong where a firearm was found. Does this accord with your investigation of the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 that is a murder case and a firearm was found? Well, Kumalo said, "My lord, this is not a murder case and it is in this case it is possession and there's no suspect by the surname of Danzi in this case. It's only boutless."
Here I started picking up that you know what the judge is starting to look uneasy. M >> he's starting to look restless.
>> So Ra then said as of the 16th of June 2020 were you still seized with the investigation of Nongoma case 16310 of 2018 and Kumalo said yes by 2018 it was then a courtdriven matter. By 2020 my apologies by 2020 it was a court-driven matter. By that time it was not transferred to the high court. it was still going to district court by the year 2020. Now Rama asked then if of or as of the 16th of June 2020 was this nong case docket 16310 of 2018 still under your direct control and possession and Kumalo said by the year 2020 I think it was with remember in 2020 June I was sick for almost 6 months I came back in January of 2021 so around that January of 2021 is when now he was started by the cold case unit and they were asking for the copy It was then now when they started contacting him when he came back after he was sick. He said he was six he was sick around 2020. So he came back January 2021 to work.
>> So Ra said >> so here's the question.
>> Mhm.
How did they investigate the so-called lies that were written in that confession of accused number one when because 2021 >> this case would have started hasn't started.
>> It starts 2022.
>> Okay. All right. 2021 they appeared in October at Boxburg Magistrate Court and then trial began somewhere around April 2022.
>> Okay.
>> And then denovo was in September 2022.
>> Okay. Let's continue. Ramy then said, "But according to your general knowledge either from officer to on the investigation of this matter, were you aware that a suspect was arrested in the northwest province Rustin in respect of the same case number nong case 16310 of 2018 for a murder charge." Well, Kumalo said there was no other suspect that was arrested specifically in this one or this case of 16310 of 2018 except the initial suspect which was and then Rama simply said earlier I asked you uh whether there was an original chart sheet in the docket and I'll tell you the reason why I wanted to find out whether there's any notation on that chart sheet but unfortunately you don't have it but I'll complete this question whether there was a recordal a reflection of the notation that Sergeant Mane charged a Bongani Sandisanzi with murder on the 16th of June 2020 while Mr. Danzi was held at Pritoria North police station. Well, the judge now started to make uh yeah his his his his opinions known.
you. He started saying now that he was arrested or was he charged on those cases and this felt like a leeway for >> Was he arrested or charged on those cases?
>> Mhm.
>> That's a question.
>> It felt like a leeway for Mi now to say, "Okay, I'm looking for escape from for from for Muani because this situation is starting to look tricky." Then he asks, "Was he arrested or was he charged?"
Those are two different things. Ramy said, "Very well understood, my lord, but we with due respect, we'll come to that." And then the judge said, "We just want to know." And Ramy said, "I believe there's an exhibit. I believe it's MN, which is an occurrence book for Pritoria North, where he says he charged."
And then the judge said, "But factually, was he charged factually?"
And uh yeah, Rama said, "I'm going to uh say what he said here in court. I'm not aware factually because the charge sheet is not there for us." And the judge said, "Yeah, because they appeared in Benoni." And Rama said they appeared in for he doesn't even know what they appeared at. Mm-m.
>> The judge said there was no charge except for the charge we are busy with.
That's all for my understanding. That's all. And then Rama said, "Yes, my lord.
I'm not the custodian of that information. That information relies really on the shoulders of the state. My lord, we are going according to the allegations and versions that were made by Sergeant Muani in relation to this docket as it pertains to Mr. Antanzi."
That's a murder case that he personally charged Mr. Danzi Rama attended Danzi who had raised his hand up at the back there. So he had to go to him to hear what instructions he was going to give him. When he came back he said on that point Mr. Dantanzi has just reminded me that it was put to him by the state that on the 16th of June 2020 he was charged for the nonga case and on the 26th of October 2020 he was then charged at Valyria for this particular one. Uh there was another charge on the 20th of June of primrose regarding the tabani uh possession of unlawful ammunition. So we're going to do according to what was said here in court. my lord.
>> M >> Yeah.
Yeah. And I felt like this was also a disturbance in some form of way. But I'm glad this time around they don't quite work. These interruptions with Rama because he's able to pick up exactly where he left off.
>> You you you see why this it is important.
>> Mhm. Even though it is downplayed by the 87 the 80y old >> judge.
>> Yes, >> it is important because what this is simple saying is that Danzi when he was detained the so-called confession was under juress.
Do you understand?
>> Yes.
>> Here is the bogus case recreated which does not exist.
They are using the false a case number of a different case and then they say no you confess voluntarily.
>> It cannot be.
>> It cannot be. So this is why now the fight and the jumping is happening because >> it kills the so-called confession and without confession of dance this case falls >> case.
>> So so now they they they are trying to find a way around this and they're failing.
>> Sure.
>> They are failing very much so.
>> Yeah. So that's why if you if you if you if you if you don't understand that's why the question says was he charged the judge is relying on he was never charged for that it was just an investigation so they want to reduce it into investigation but the problem is that it did it went to court so there are records there are obies also that are happening while they detain this person and then they investigate >> so that question of the person is in transitto, why then do you wake up and investigate that person?
It's it's it's it's it's actually killing the confession itself.
Hi, that is fine by me.
That is fine by me.
I don't mind at all.
Well, now Kumalo said that procedurally in the SAPS if you charge a person for a particular matter um you must be referred to page five of the docket. One of the things that are very very important that must reflect on page five in the OB is cell register number as well as fingerprint number that is proof that this person has been charged. So in this matter on page five, we've only got one accused, one suspect of course, which is Ganis Salani. And then Rama asked him that it may seem silly, but he's going to ask, you know, and he said he has his own reasons why he's asking this for the Nonga case 16310 of 2018.
He asked him, did you have any outstanding suspects in relation to the charge? And Kumalo said, not at all. And as of 16th June 2020, how far have the investigations of that matter progressed? And Kumalo said that it has progressed very well because the directives that were given to us uh were complied we complied with them up until the matter was later transferred to the high court. Now Ramai said continuing with Sergeant Muan's testimony here in court, he says Nani was arrested at Freedom Park in Rastenburg. He's then transferred to the Pritoria North Police Station and on the 16th of June 2020 at the Ptoria North Police Station he makes an entry into the SAP 10 or the occurrence book that Mr. Andan is held in transito in respect of the nonga case 16310 of 2018. Do you want to comment on that? Well Kumalo said well I cannot converse we've got only one suspect in this matter. So Rama simply said, can you just explain to us what your understanding is when the entry was made into the occurrence book that a suspect is held in transit in this respect or in this instance for the nong case 16310 of 2018. What does it mean? And Kumalo said my lord it means that the suspect is a suspect of nong. So he's in transit to nong to be charged and appear in nong.
They were keeping him just to sleep over. Then tomorrow they would continue with their journey to Nong where he will be officially charged for the mere fact that Nanzi never appeared at Nong. What does that mean?
>> It mean that the case was fabricated.
Ramy then said and you say the suspect is entered into transito because he's a suspect on nong but in this instance that was your investigation nong 16310 of 2018 wasn't a suspect in your matter and kumalo said not at all and then muane testified further to say that they booked at around 2245 on the 16th of June 2020 at nongo mranito on the 17th he's removed from the cells He's taken to a boardroom where amongst others of the alleged cases that he's involved in, he's asked in particular about the Nongoma murder case and the forces murder case, which is the current case which is before this honorable court. Is this still your testimony that there's no murder charge according to investigation in the Nonga case 16310 of 2018? And Kumalo said yes, there's no murder, it's possession.
So after the shorter gentleman, Rama asked, "Did you tell Brigadier Gin the case pertains so lightly to a firearm and it was not a murder investigation?"
Kumalo said that that was correct. Rama corrected himself and said that Dani actually reminded him that he was charged at Ptoria North and not Valyria for this matter this matter of of Senzo.
Ramy handed him the original OB register from Pritorian North SAPS starting on the 16th of June 2020. He asked Kenel Kumalo to read an entry pertaining to this investigation. Now Ken Kumar Lored this is an entry that was on the 16th of June 2020 Tuesday. The entry was made at 224442 2242 in transito detective sergeant moan of national cold case unit with one male suspect on nonga case 16310 of 2018 bongani of SAP 14 uh a time of arrest was 2200 hours with no injuries contact number is that of sergeant moani he actually left two cell phone numbers and u 138 803 cell phone numbers were read into the record. So Ramos then said now just on this entry alone you've testified that if indeed the suspect was held in transito it was on a temporary basis to be transferred to Nong because he's got a case to answer to Nong and that case will be 16310 of 2018 and according to your further testimony this morning you said that Mr. Santanzi was not a person of interest or a suspect in your matter in relation to 163 of 2018.
Now I've handed you another exhibit, a notice of rights. Uh take this call through why a notice of rights will be issued to a suspect in relation to a particular matter. Well, Kumalo said thank you my lord. to the SAP 14A is a receipt that is handed to every arrested person be before he's issued and IO has to explain his rights and the charges against him. So after reading all that is listed here and the arrested person will confirm and sign that he or she understood. So that was the case or that was the case in this matter where I think Sergeant Muani completed this and issued it to Bongan Tanzi. The case number is on top of the charge there.
It's murder. Now recall that with pertaining to the Nonga case, the forloras case, any other case except for that one from Tabani H did and Danzi receive any of copies of his SAP14 for those many many charges that were trumped up against him.
The only one that he received the charge sheet for was the clabani one which ultimately got uh was it dismissed >> the one ammunition?
>> Yes, it was.
>> So Ramai said you've also stated that the offense noted there is murder and he said that's correct. Let me move back to the occurrence book the entry of the 18th of June. similar entry the it was a Thursday um it was made at 8:15 investigative duty on detective sergeant moani one male suspect out nong case 16310 of 2018 and uh raised what I want to confirm canel is do you do all investigations in relation to the arrest of Mr. during this time the 16th the 18th you'll see later on that on the 19th it's in relation to the nonga case 16310 of 2018 according to the register the OB and uh Ramasi then went on to ask let's go to the next entry so he went through all the entries of Moani Buing Danzi under the Nongoma case and then ultimately Um Kumalo expressed that he was a little bit confused. He asked how is it possible that a nong case a person must appear here instead of appearing in Nong where the crime was committed if there was a crime that was committed but maybe the court will get to that but I'm a little bit confused. Ramos said I'm also baffled as you are. And the judge says, "Sorry, the evidence here is very clear.
It was in transit. He was supposed to be delivered to Nonga to face trial there, but the prosecutor in Boxburg or for Loras or whatever you want to call it refused to place it on the role. Is this true?
>> It's a lie.
>> False.
>> It's a lie.
The one that was strike off the role is that one of ammunition."
>> Yes. No, >> it's the one of illegal substances.
>> Illegal substances. Yes.
>> It's a lie.
>> Well, the judge said, "Are you with me?"
So, he was not going to appear in Johannesburg or he was going to appear in Nong. When did Muani say that? When did Briadinda himself say that? It's not mu. It's experience that is speaking.
It's >> experience is speaking.
They went and fetch this man for experience.
>> But whom he's actually forgetting sometimes that he's a judge. He said he was going to appear in that's the evidence in this court. But it's not.
>> It's not the evidence in this court. We are all perplexed and wondering where do you get this from? Because that's not the evidence that Moani gave, no Briad Gininda gave that they were on their way to Nong. They said no such a thing.
None.
None at all.
Well, Kumala said, "Thanks my lord." And Rama continued and said, "As the court pleases, I'm indeped." Um, you know, he's he's he's learned or rather let's say he's nonchalant. Ramsey Ramsey bill is no longer shaken.
That's very raw, right?
By the way, I am impressed with this particular witness. I am so impressed with Raip.
He's so calm, cool, and collected.
He said that is what I was coming to explain to you as we wrap the first entry as it says in transito in respect of the nong case but the evidence also is led in this case that is uh that they were taking danzi to go and appein for loras in respect of the nong 163 ma but when they got to for loras moani says I've got it here he wrote it in his notes he said nong was really far away then they decided to place the illegal substance case on the matter which the prosecutor refused to place on the role.
So they wanted to embed this Nongoma case with the possession of illegal substances case at Foras >> and the prosecutor said no.
>> They wanted to smash them together.
and recreate a new case.
>> The crime happened in >> No, you can do that. Even the case of Guanong. Okay. It happened like that.
>> But it was one jurisdiction, was it not?
>> It went to Tunzin. From Guanoma to Tunzin. It jumped all the way from >> Munin was high court.
>> Munin is high court.
>> Yes. But it started a disreg asked him to read yet another entry. Um this one was the first one is a cell visit that was made at 4:00 a.m. visited by Constable Neua and Constable Mar.
Uh you know and he said that it's a cell visit of two members. The second entry was made at 450. Prisoners transferred today. Sergeant Muan of the National Kase Unit was with one male suspect of murder no case 163 of six of 2018.
Bongani.
Well, there was an explanation for this mistake. They said it was an error of some sort.
They said moani said it's an error.
Well, said the two matters, the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 and the other matter was investigated by officer. They were finalized and they were finalized. So, Kumalo said 25th of March 2022 is when the matters were finalized.
Ramos now went on to say, let's forget about the murder case, the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 in relation to Mr. Abouti now how was it finalized and Kumalo said that it was finalized as guilty and there's a judgment reflecting the finalization in the docket he asked if it will be there or will it be somewhere else and Kumalo said that there was an endorsement on the docket signed by the prosecutor and how was it finalized in respect of Mr. the possession of unlawful firearm. The sentence was 15 years imprisonment or possession of unlicensed firearm. But later on for the murder, he expressed that it was a life imprisonment.
So Ramy simply said after finalization then what happened to the case docket nong 16310 of 2018 and Kumar said it was returned back to us to me in fact the IO and then I did the updating on the system and then the matter was then archived accordingly and Rama said do you know who filed the closure for that docket and Kumala said I was the one who updated it and closed it on the system then I signed it then it I took it back to the original station which is no more. And then Ramy said, "Sergeant Muani testified that so far as the Nonga case 16310 of 2018 is concerned in relation to Mr. Antanzi, there are investigations, the murder investigations are not complete. Do you want to comment on that?" Well, Kumalo said, "I don't have any comment because I know nothing about the murder case that he was talking about. I only know of this one that he was talking about.
this one of ammunition and possession of a firearm where the suspect is.
Furthermore, when we went to the archives, no one has ever taken it from the station to do any other investigation.
>> All this the stupidity of all this, this case is about one person.
It's like me stealing no rocks at your bride and then next thing you find out you are part of that case also. How can you be part of that?
>> I'm the one who was caught stealing Norox.
>> I was not seen running away when when I mean we were not seen running away when we were caught and all that. is one person who was found with a ammunition and a gun.
How can you How can you be this foolish though?
How can you One person was found with the gun?
>> Yes.
>> One person.
>> Yes.
>> No friend ran away. In fact Ram should ask I don't in in in when you when you caught this guy because you were there no friend you saw running away that might potted maybe purported as dance >> maybe maybe >> did you see any friend running away maybe stuff like that then the cold case was able to crack down this case maybe through the the person that you arrested >> maybe >> you know did you see any friend running away from the scene when you were arresting this guy or did you see any friend who had a gun and gave it to to you as they saw the police and he ran away you know you know I mean what can you do with this judge >> this person was was pointed alone alone alone >> alone >> no one was around That person?
>> No.
>> Alone. I think though they must try to find to to emphasize that part when you arrested this man.
>> He was alone.
>> Was he alone?
No friend fle the scene that you couldn't find?
>> Well, he said no one has ever taken it from the station to do any other investigation except for me. Before I came to this court, I went to Nonga and then I took it from the archives and then I came here with it. He did this exactly last week Thursday. So even then when he looked at it on the system, a ain't no moani there. We are 700 short of the likes that we are supposed to be at and we have 724 people watching but we are 724 of I must say now Rama said have you received any indictment from the DPP in Ken or the DPP in charging Bongani with murder on that docket said I never received any indictment. Rama police said, "Let me ask you this bluntly, as bluntly as I can. If a suspect is arrested for murder, he's charged for that murder.
He's held in custody for that murder.
He's questioned about the murder, but he then never been brought before a judicial office in respect of that murder. What does that say about the legality or lawfulness of the arrest that the suspect in the matter?" And then Kumalo says simply it is unlawful.
But then Sibanda objected and said I understand kennel before court is a kennel in the South African police service is not a judicial officer to make such a determination.
doesn't need a judicial officer to see unlawful if >> Jesus >> they're trying to say the witnesses did not see the firearm they don't know they are not experts of firearms >> if the police do not know what is lawful and unlawful how can they affect the arrest >> if they are that dumb >> how do they affect arrests how do they know >> because from where I sit the job of a court is not to determine whether it's unlawful or unlawful.
>> Yes.
>> The job of a of a court is to find out if the evidence given against the unlawful the police claim you did >> is it enough plausible and then find you guilt or not guilty. That's the job of the court to find you guilty or not guilt based on the evidence that has been laid in front of it. or well some court at least let's say some court because to others it doesn't matter you are guilty as you enter the court and it finishes like that said my lord I've heard the kennel's answer he said it's unlawful um you know that's not a competent answer is what the judge said and then raibili said he'll withdraw it the judge actually seemed to be very much in agreement with Sibanda. He said, "Yeah, >> I'm just saying we all know that he's not a judicial officer."
>> Oh, the judicial officer does not I'm, you know, I'm not even googling this.
It's from my brain like I'm thinking judicial officers are not there to declare what is legal and what is illegal. that is done by the constitutions and everything that we we have and it's done.
>> Their job is to find out whether you are actually found guilty for what they say you did that is illegal.
>> That is their job.
>> Well, Ramy now went to the case administration system. He asked does the case administration system as we speak today not in 2016 does it reflect that there's a murder charge against Mr. Anzi in relation to the long case 16310 of 2018. Kumalo said no. And then the judge now interrupted and said sorry before you proceed. Are you aware of something called the South African secrets act.
>> What a great word. Bombastic secret act.
>> He said where they store amongst others the unfinished cases or stale cases. And Kumalo said he's not aware of it. The judge said the unit which is this guy was part of >> unfinished cases.
Dami unfinished. If it's there, if it does exist, stale cases, unfinished cases. What does this one have that is different from what you've just mentioned now?
It has a tick of a finished case.
>> Yes, it's finished. Finalized.
Well, Raipil said the cold case unit, the judge said, "Yeah, okay. I've heard about the cold case unit." And then he said to the witness, "Are you referring to the same thing, Mr. Ramos is referring to a different one?" Well, Kumalo said, "No, I think it's a different one." And then the judge said, "That's the point." Yeah, because the one this court had to deal with was said by Moani that in terms of the official secret act, nobody has access to it unless you are a policeman. Are you with me?
>> Did you hear that? I thought I heard it alone. Unless you are a policeman.
>> Unless if you're a policeman.
>> And the police is right there.
Understand?
>> Police.
>> Understand? Right there.
>> Lord, thank you very much. God bless you. Press the like button, guys. This is just a reminder.
>> I don't know where we're telling you.
You you if if you tell this to someone who just woke up from death, >> they'll say you're lying.
>> They'll say you are lying.
>> There's no way a judge behaves like this.
What am I thinking for themselves? They'll have to see it. My morning was see.
And then he said, "I'm with you, my lord." And they just said, "That's it."
Do you remember Mr. He was looking at said I'm just trying to follow what the court is trying to say.
I'm just trying to follow.
Well, they just said the docket which you were reading here which was brought by Mr. Gomezu somehow he got it from some policeman remember a page it was in this court and then it issued an order that the councils here I issued an order that the councils here shouldn't have access to it but I found you reading it all of you said I'm referring to that that is what Mr. Gininda said he was busy with that these cases are all over and they have taken them together to form a unit of them well said firstly what Mr. Gomezu brought was an extract from the case system in respect of 163 this one not any secret service act whatever the court is mentioning it was in respect of this muani then said in tan is involved in several other matters and then he brought that list I'm doing this in parallel because these issues shouldn't bother us that much because otherwise we'll have to call those IO's like this one and then we find out other things moane um except says so that Bongan is involved in this matter. He has never produced a single document or a single case system. The judge said, "Yeah, that's not the problem." And then Rama said, "I'm asking about the case system." Um he then returned to Ken Kumalo and asked him, "In fact, I'm going to challenge you over lunchtime.
You are a police officer. There's a central police station in Durban or in Pritoria Central. actually not during in Pritoria central just it's not even far from that high court it's like a 5 minute walk actually he said I can accompany you you know extract the case system's thing on Mansan's ID and come back to court and show this court whether Moani said that he has got five other matters registered against him is reflected like in this case system of the SAPS and the judge then went quiet. It was silent >> because they're telling him exactly is a is not is not a judge. Allegedly, he made me so angry.
I like this. It's it's a norm because he was told he was told God bless you by the way.
Thank you.
Thank you. He was told what to know. But we can do it in a simpler way. We can just go check this thing out. You know, we we can just do it. It's not like it's a secret.
>> It's not.
Now Raipil said now if Sergeant Moani as he testified in this court that he was allocated this matter to investigators of January 2020 by Brigadir Ginda would it show somewhere else in the case administration system of the SAPS and Kumalo said it will show if indeed that thing did happen.
>> You need to be careful when you answer these questions and be specific.
Rais said, "Have you ever seen case 16310 of 2018, any record at all that in this matter was transferred from yourself, your unit to the national cold case unit?" And Kumalo said, "I can say this my lord very confidently." So if a case has been transferred to another person to another unit, when I was doing the update, it was going to refuse me to say that this case is no longer with you. For me, it was very easy to update up until I closed it on the system because it was still under my name.
>> The judge looked pissed. I saw the the his face here.
>> It was priceless. Ramy said, "This is my last question."
>> You know, Secret Do you remember subsequently M >> when he came to testify, he cautioned and the judge was you know you know >> confidential now that's where the secret is coming from that's why the question you know comes from that that all these cases about Dan Dan is this criminal that they even now doing his cases secretly.
>> Oh yes.
>> Yes. But what Ramos is saying is that okay you can do them secretly but if we go punch Dan's idea there >> Mhm.
>> it's not going to pull any of these cases. It's going to pull zero of this zero >> of these cases because okay we are just pulling cases that he has. We're not saying h we want details of it. It's going to pull zero. Mhm.
>> That's why then just kept quiet because he knows that it's going to pull zero. So what they did was to put that that thing that balloon of saying hey uh this is a secret thing you cannot access it >> confidential >> now only to find out they also have a copy of the so-al confidential cases they are saying the original copy is apparently not confidential and it's there in this court did It has a judgment.
>> It has a judgment. It even has notes and all that.
>> Side notes. So was actually reading that.
>> Yes.
>> From the the the what the cast system.
>> Yes.
So what they did because did not obtain it in a in this manner in a legal matter by bringing the IO for it which then forced the IO to come with everything.
So Bz ran and then then they were like we don't know how we got this. We don't know how we got this. Hey >> a lot of trouble for doing that. You remember that >> that is not that supposed to be disclosed to the public.
>> Yes, we remember that. Now the same disclos we are told now they have a copy because they are good in copying everything allegedly.
>> Allegedly >> they take people's cases and copy them.
Allegedly the Shaban was here you know everything just changes now and then. So they tried to hijack this one again.
allegedly.
>> Allegedly it it did not work because what when they were hijacking it, they hijacked >> the the copy of the original thing and the original thing came and it's not classified.
>> Mm- has never been classified.
>> No, there's no classification there. Can you imagine classifying a copy that you were copied by when you were requesting that arrangement?
You classify a copy.
You classify a copy and then the original comes. It's not classified.
>> N >> it's like you given a an umbrella instead of using it. You are protecting it. When the umbrell hits you, you are protecting the umbrella. You don't want it to get water.
>> Only to find would actually it was supposed to protect you. Exactly. That's what happened.
>> Yes.
>> So the the real thing came. It's not classified.
>> In fact, I'm I'm disappointed in in in in in one of these defenses. I'm hoping she'll ask that is this document classified as per SAPS inter is it classified? They talked classified there classified.
>> It's classified. They talk classified.
Yes. If they can ask is this classified?
We were told that this is classified stuff.
>> Yeah.
If he says no then we say okay that's a different case then because this one we told that classified they had to unclassified it a word for it for them to read it classified >> only for their eyes the judge only for your eyes. Now we are hearing it. It's our ears now. They are clued in this TV. We are hearing this whole classified nonsense.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, >> we could be arrested the following day >> for hearing classified stuff >> via the TV.
Well, he asked Canel Kumalo for a comment and lastly which was the final question. Kumar said there's only one aspect here my lord um there's an entry where the suspect who who was detained at pritoria north in transito so no one will expect that on the following day the suspect is taken to nong because he is in transit to nong case but this one was never booked to nong instead he was booked for investigation h so I don't know um this how it happened because you book a suspect here in Ptoria in transito one will expect tomorrow you know to book him out and I'm transporting him down to nong so I wouldn't get it right there my lord you know he was very confused about this aspect of evidence raisil said on that aspect left tenant kennel thank you for raising it I must be fair to you as a witness that that came to this court to know the full picture as we sit here today from the 16th of June 2022 To date, Mr. Dantanzi has never been questioned by officers from Nong regarding that matter. He has never been transferred to Nong regarding that matter. He's never appeared in any court in Nongo in respect of that matter. And uh Kumalo said, "Yeah, that is true. I was the first person to know as the IO."
You would be the first person to know.
>> You would be the first person to know on the IO >> as the IO >> as the IO on the 16310 of 2018. So now it was M's turn. Okay. He said that he was tempted to ask only one question, but of course it ended up being many more.
It ended up being many more questions. N said, you know, to me, I'm listening to your testimony h that which the state through what Sergeant Moani put on record. It seems, you know, there are two case numbers which were registered under Guanonga. There are two charges which were registered under Guanonga case 16310 of 2018. The one being the charge of murder and the other one unlawful possession of firearm and ammunition. This says to me that there could have been some problems with possession of a firearm and ammunition.
And this cause this says to me that there could have been some problems with the duplication that was made by the system. How reliable is the system? And Kumalo said from experience the system cannot allocate one in the same case number in a different matter or in two different cases. Now Ni asked him, "Did you find anything relating to Guanonga case 16310 of 2018 that talks to murder?" Well, Kumalo said, "Not at all, my lord." And he said that he was still wondering how could this matter have been paired with case 16310 of 2018. You are saying once a prosecutor endorses after a case has been finalized it gets archived and there's no further instruction from the prosecutor that the case needs to be further investigated then it means that the end of that's the end of the case there is that not so and Kumalo said that's correct now I'm following the question might not be comfortable it might be not be comfortable this question I'm about to ask is it permissible for a police officer to, you know, let me not make a far-fetched example. Let me confine myself to the facts of this case because this information is factual. Was it permissible for Sergeant Muani to act in the way that he did?
Siband objected and said it's for the court to make that finding the court seized with the matter.
And then we see >> how is the court going to know the nittyg gritties of the of the system of the laws that are put. You see how stupid the objection is the company puts laws.
this judge for him to find that Muan was not allowed to do what he did, he would need to understand the SAPS laws and regulations.
>> Yes.
>> And what the the don'ts and and dos which are not going to be part of his judgment.
So we are not here about muani and the answer is actually very smart >> from this guy Ukumal very smart because he does not answer in behalf of the church but he answer as a colleague and as a work of SAPS that he cannot pass judgment >> to to another worker but that is for the heads and the HRs of SAPS to deal with and that's a correct way not the objection was misdirected objection wrong objection didn't make sense >> even the judge helped >> and said we are here about the case of Senzo and then Sibanda flipped it >> he changed that objection I >> he changes we are not here and the witnesses testify lying on case 63610 of 2014.
>> I will always wonder. I will always question I'll always question.
Now next okay the first question is what with reference to accused persons but he said do you know his other name and he said yes his other name was Mima Bhazi.
Do you guys remember this name from accuse number one's so-called alleged confession? M m Kumaro said that he was arrested on the 17th of October 2018 on the day he was that accused number five was talking about when >> you can make this thing up can you? No, you can't.
>> The confession of accuse number one was never a confession. It was coerced.
It was forced. It was written by someone who failed to think about the circumstances and they realized later and he corrected it using dance. That's my only submission. You will not find it in that court.
>> No. Well, the docu >> and on top of correcting it using Danzi, he find that he made a mistake when Dani was being was being made to write that statement.
He corrected it using cronier in my opinion.
>> Oh yes, there are two.
>> Does this first confession also has give you three attempts?
Exactly. They are meant for people like that. People who don't study, wants to first view the question, the first question and see if he can write them down and then do the second one. Write them down where he got them correct as he was guessing and then write the last one and hope that all these questions will come back on the last one. And unfortunately only 20% comes back and this is what happened. The case becomes a joke.
The docket also had an investigation diary which was part C of the docket. It contained interaction between the police and investigating officer as well as the prosecutors involved. Now his commander was General Kumal at the time from the detective side. He said now it was General who is head of DPCI in the Eastern Cape. And then asked him from the time of arrest of Makima Boutles, he was then entering the diary to the fact that there was an outstanding suspect by the name of Bongani Sandis Danzi that you were supposed to arrest. Well, Kumalo said not at all. My lord, was there J50 which is a document that was signed by the prosecutor and the magistrate? Was there J50 authorizing the arrest of Mr. Antanzi before court in respect of the Nonga case 16310 of 2018?
And Kumalo said no. If there was I was the first person to know. So there there was no there was not even a J50. J is a warrant of arrest. It wasn't there. So if the docket was booked out, he was going to know about it. In fact, he was the one who was going to book it out to another unit is what Kumalo said because then he was by then the head of detectives who was in charge of all the dockets belonging to PKTT.
Okay. Now I was beginning to understand why this particular witness h gave us such a hard time especially before coming to court with his commander wanting h to be subpoenaed by the judge working for pkt yeah is a lot is a lot it's it's not a a light thing and I know you all heard from the madlanga commission as well as the ad hoc committee about how the officers and detectives who work there actually need to be protected.
He said that his job is to update cases on a daily basis. Um Malo asked him he also told the court that there can't be a duplication of case numbers with reference to the charges as well as we followed in this court. we've got two charges, you know, uh case number one and then um he said it's impossible. The system cannot allocate the same case numbers in two different cases. And then the judge chimed in and said, "Unless, of course, there's a consolidation.
Is there consolidation on this one?"
Where Mane did not even speak to to to Ken Kumar?
>> A word consolidation. There's no consolidation.
>> There's no consolidation.
>> Consolidation happened with this case because of the gun, >> you know.
You don't just consolidate.
>> No, you don't. You know >> they said that the gun that committed the murder they actually found him with the gun while he was getting arrested.
So with this one to consolidate it doesn't mean that you have to lie about the case and say it has murder and the stupidity around it is that you say it has murder the other accused is in this case is only accused of ammunition and the gun. M >> now you have to go back to Mima and add the murder and then now if it was one murder on the 44 something case that happened because of this gun then now it's going to be two murders that murder you must have a weapon to man this gun must link back also >> to the murder they saying Dani committed >> which is That's how crazy. I mean, I don't know what these people were thinking.
>> They're either brave or they either too bold where they don't respect any >> or they are either smoking socks or something.
>> Something is just not right, man.
>> They they are fearless or they are feared. They know that no one is going to tell them ish or they are generally just dumb. So in their mind they sat down and said, case that had murder about this accused Makima or this a person was arrested.
They forgot. They saw murder. They didn't look that actually these are two cases that were put together.
They didn't see that.
>> No.
If you are going to cook, >> I don't think there's anybody in their table who will in All they wanted is for us not to test.
So we had that thing.
Yeah.
And considering how everyone who has an opposing view is treated, you'll end up in a table where everyone is just agreeing with the pots that are not cooking.
>> So be careful how you treat people in life.
Moral of the story.
Yeah.
Well, dealt with this consolidation. He said, "Let us talk about what you told this court." Makim is arrested for possession of unless firearm and ammunition on the 17th of October 2018 with a J50 warrant. Um, and then Kumalo said he was arrested with a J50 on the murder case. So by this consolidation it means that one accused person does not have to appear in court now and then appears for se separate cases. So it's better to consolidate these cases with two case numbers to be one accused person appearing in court for those charges. Is that correct? And Kumalo said that's correct. So this Nonga case 16310 of 2018 with the murder charge would I be correct to say that it does not exist on the system that one >> and Kumalo said on the system it doesn't exist the judge said yeah on the system you are right there's a possibility that a case can be closed like they have closed this case after 15 years through ballistics or other evidence you find evidence which matches then the closed case of 15 years you go back and retract it. Well, Kumar said you reopen, but it will still be the very same case.
>> Yes.
>> That is buried 15 years ago.
>> But it will also show that this case is reopen. The systems are for that.
And it will add nodes, >> right? It won't just be on a closed status and there's no chronological order.
Yeah, >> you know, I wish to have his brain just one and and if if I have it, obviously I have to make sure that I pray far from the roads and all that. just sit in this house and and and and think what he's thinking because I can't I don't think you'll be able to cross the road.
exist on the system and Kumalo said that if you reopen it you can't register if it is closed it's in archive you want to revive it it will reopen it will reopen which the system will indicate that that's the case >> that's what the system is going to say case reopen going to say who opened it obviously you will need a sort of authentication from the person who owns it that's why the IO would need to know that you are adding something because they are the system is I'm not part of the I've never seen it but I believe it is created such as it has one h unique IP address with you when you do whatever that you do h it closes unless you give access to someone else >> or it is given set somewhere somehow however ever it is given but it must be agreed upon I think.
>> Yes you know.
>> Yes.
>> So but I see again my time.
>> Well asked if the arrest of accused number two Bongan Tani on the 16th of June was legitimate and he said that he's asking this question based on the answer that Kumalo gave that this case number doesn't exist on the system.
Well, Sibando objected and said that it is for the not for the witness to make such a finding. H he said it's a judicial determination. This witness cannot assist with uh that >> obvious they would rush. Why wouldn't I also object for the judge to make a ruling? Because well the judge is happy to make the ruling that in my opinion supports me. Obviously, everything must be referred to a 50 years of experience, 80 years of age, young at heart.
Obvious, right?
>> Right.
>> Yeah. The judge got all spicy and started Yeah. the back and forth again.
And said the rules are the same when it comes to civil and criminal matters because now Sibanda was talking about it not being a a a a criminal matter but a civil matter. The judge said but maybe in sight maybe Fif was also an investigator in that case and the one which you say was not legitimate having two. Well, Kumalo said, "I don't know what evidence they have in 2022." So, it's very difficult for me to comment on that. And Kumalo said, "Is there anything in the docket that would have directed the other investigating units to investigate this case in the direction of Mr. Dantani?" And he asked him, you can go through the docket and the judge said, "What kind of a question is that? Ask him again. Ask him again."
Well, Kumalo said there are no statements directing Tanzi. Okay. And accuse number two raised up his hand and that's when asked for the adjournment.
When they came back and said that on the basis are you saying that nong ma case 16310 of 2018 doesn't exist and kumalo said if one goes to the system you punch nong 16310 the system shows you that there's only one case which is of possession under which it pertains to 16310 of uh 2018. So Kumalo said it's clear from this record that Mr. Antanzi was arrested, interviewed and ultimately was charged on SAP 14A and Kumalo said I cannot be precise what he was charged for because in this case 163 he was not charged. So from what they issued him with his rights they were you know I'm going to take it from there I don't know but from the original case he was not charged.
So I will quickly go to this spot where he said okay he did explain how he met up with Gininda you know and what was happening which we've already covered but then there was a point where Malo said did Gininda tell you that Mr. Dani was a person of interest in respect of the murder docked which did not exist at all which is the Nongoma case 16310 of 2018 and Kumalo said we did not discuss much he did not disclose to me the matter that he was investigating and said from the massive experience have you conducted investigations on a docket that is not on the case system a docket that does not exist.
I've never seen that that spicy.
You are spicy today.
>> Let's press the like button, guys. Let us reach 500.
He was on a level. I was like, I this is what this judge has been suppressing all these years.
Well, he said that have you done that from your experience? And Kumalo said, "No, I've never done it. Even the principals, if they come for the inspection, they're going to find out.
They're going to ask me why are you having this docket or else it is not um there on the case system. Furthermore, even if it is an inquiry, inquiries get registered. It is subject to inspection.
If that inquiry has got the potential to become the case, you can change it to a case. It becomes a case and then you investigate. So Malo said in your massive experience have you interviewed suspects even gone to an extent of charging them on a case that does not exist have you done that and Kumlo said it's impossible the system will deny him that because it will say this case doesn't exist or the system will say this is an invalid case number. So if you charge a person on the existing case automatically he was said accuse number two because he already exists. So if we ch if we charge another it goes to accuse number two but if you charge it will go on to the existing charge which is possession if it is possession and he collected the dockets last week Thursday of this particular nonga case. So he was still able to get into the system with ease and get out. That means no other new investigator was assigned on that case.
>> You know what that means? What does that mean?
>> That means that case was not cold at all. It is hot because the PKT works with hot stuff.
>> Yes.
>> That means this is very hot.
>> He works with hot >> and there is a team that deals with the cold one. The cold rooms the mual one.
There's a mual team. And there's a PKT PKT bales.
>> Well, Sibanda stopped Numalo from making the witness place an entry on their diary. Okay. He objected very quick and fast claiming that it is privileged information. The judge agreed with him and then said that it was allowed when the state was doing it. Why is it now that it's them? It's being disallowed.
And the judge got upset and said, "It's privilege. He's entitled to it. You know, he'll do it.
You know, you can do it, but not me. I can't do it."
>> So, he's protecting who now here? The judge, cuz the witness was willing to put it.
>> The the witness had no problem putting it, but somehow he he stopped it from happening. So, was being protected.
And why?
Why? Well, it was now time for I think we've covered at the very beginning. I don't I I don't know if I should go through everything, but we we we did.
She said what she needed to say, and I'm very proud.
There wasn't.
>> What did you say? What did she say?
>> Well, she said that it is a false case.
Does not exist. Okay. You were lied at.
The judge was being told you were lied at.
>> Yes, you were lied. It's a case.
>> I don't understand why you are feeling the need to defend the fact that you were lied at.
We were all lied.
>> But we can't be shy to say that. Let us not protect the evidence.
Even though it's painful pill to swallow because >> hard pill to swallow.
>> The beautiful team can never lie to you but you swallow it.
>> You were said can I just ask for an adjournment? I cannot proceed under the circumstances.
>> You were played.
>> I cannot proceed under the circumstances. I need to cool down.
where you are aggravated.
>> Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Judge, you're better.
You better come down. You're being exposed, bro. Even your face your face just says it all. It says it all.
The judge's face is speaking. He's speaking very loud. His face is very loud.
without saying a word. I saw him looking at Kumar like I'm like why you looking at the witness like this?
Why you looking at him like he owes you money?
>> He needs to relax.
>> He needs to relax. He's relax.
This is a good time. Okay, >> guys. Good time. It is a good time >> for for what is happening. No guys, I'm no longer going to take calls.
>> That's why I'm also wrapping it up, guys.
>> I have to wake up and do my fantastic >> fantastic.
Do not apologize. Please, >> please don't.
>> If you can hear me, you are not wrong.
And I don't think they can take you to LPC for that.
>> No. Mm-m. If you go to L LPC, drag 80 years old with you.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He said your father is young and I'm sure your father is not young.
Yeah.
>> He's older than her father.
>> My daughter shocked.
for Sunday.
It is tamounting to to to problems. What is happening there? Giving stomach cramps.
Shocked. Look at number two.
How shocked.
propagandist.
>> I am tired. Everything that they cover, they always against people. They against people like us. They're against us.
They're against us. Everything.
Zangland this WEEK so that I can call my fools and then we chill there.
We drink water joking allegedly.
Thank you very much. Press the like button in your way in your way out.
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