Christian Cannot Face the Brutality of Hell

[00:00:05]Hey, how you doing?

[00:00:07]>> Hi. Good. How are you?

[00:00:09]>> I'm doing well.

[00:00:10]>> Good. Are you at least 18?

[00:00:13]>> Oh, yeah. I'm I'm over 18.

[00:00:15]>> Okay, great. [snorts] What can I do for you?

[00:00:19]>> I'm looking at your uh yellow uh post-it note here that says, "You don't deserve hell."

[00:00:24]>> Mhm.

[00:00:25]>> And um I I think I understand that. um your position on it. Um I think it's uh impeaching the the righteousness or the the I don't know the the edict or the ethics of of the Bible and of you know Christianity and you know the Christian God and it's trying to say be free from this thing.

[00:00:51]There's just has to be mythology and really it's not logical.

[00:00:56]>> No, I haven't said any of those things.

[00:00:58]Oh, okay. So, so, uh, establish your position. Uh, what do you mean by this, uh, this sign here?

[00:01:06]>> So, um, I was a Christian for a long time and now I no longer believe in God. And um but I think the idea that humans would deserve eternal infinite everlasting punishment for a finite life is unjust.

[00:01:31]>> Uh that's a matter of opinion.

[00:01:33]>> Yeah. This is my opinion. Yes.

[00:01:36]>> Yes. Um yeah. Um, what type of Christian were you?

[00:01:46]>> Um, [clears throat] a Protestant Christian.

[00:01:48]>> Okay. Protestant Christian. Um, >> uh, what type of Christian are you?

[00:01:54]>> Um, that's a that's a good question to pose back to me. Um, I would say Protestant also, but I guess what I was getting at was like how close was your connection um to God?

[00:02:07]So when Christians ask me this question, um what's challenging is I will explain to you what it was like and then often I will get Christians telling me, "Oh, so you had a worksbased faith," which is not true. So I just want to put that out there like please don't do that. Um because it is not true. Um so I it was very relational for me. Um, I prayed all the time. Um, I read my Bible all the time and it was um, [gasps] I could go into more detail, but I was very devoted and um, it was very real to me, very relational to me.

[00:02:54]>> Mhm. See, what I was getting at, it was kind of like um if I give you an example, it's like if you fall in love with the greatest, most regal man like the guy on Dose Ekki's commercials and [laughter] and he he just takes your heart just beyond what whatever and emotionally, physically, spiritually, and all these other places, you know. I I kind of have this thing that a person is he becomes unforgettable or everything that would would come after it as a romantic interest would not measure up if this was the chief one.

[00:03:38]That's what I reason why I asked that question was I was looking for the experience of if you remember sometimes people forget um >> so I definitely >> when his presence came and >> put their soul back together or when their conscience was against them >> and his presence came and >> and and restore their conscience and you know stopped the the the the anguish and the torment when he was like there for your experiences of dreams of visions or hearing his voice be going to sleep and hearing someone talking to you and wake up and the voice is still talking to you. I was wondering about you know those type of experiences.

[00:04:23]>> Um so like using the the metaphor you brought up of like falling in love with someone and then not being able to forget them. Um, you know, imagine like falling in love with someone through letters and hearing about them and absolutely being devoted to this person. You love them more than you've ever loved someone and then you find out at one point the letters were faked.

[00:04:54]And so it's not that you didn't love that person. Um, and you're heartbroken to have found out that those letters are fake. And you cannot force yourself to believe that the letters are real once you've learned that they're fake.

[00:05:12]>> So, what is your analogy of the letters being fake? Are you saying the scriptures are fake or are you just that's just your analogy?

[00:05:18]>> That's my analogy for like no longer believing in God. Um, but I I mean I will say I I don't think that scriptures are written by God.

[00:05:30]>> Well, yeah, they're they're inspired by him and he uses uh, you know, humans to, you know, write it, but they're inspired by him. But yeah, that's that's the reason why I came that's the reason why I was asking the question not necessarily for intellectual or or just to show relational as a checkbox but I wanted to know like what was the actual experience or you know >> right so yeah it was very u present very relational experience for me >> yeah yeah I Um, I think you're wrong as [laughter] far as, you know, abandon.

[00:06:13]>> Well, let me put it to you this way. Um, I did not choose to stop believing. It was something that happened to me.

[00:06:23]>> Um, and I was heartbroken when I stopped believing it. It was a huge loss for me.

[00:06:30]So why is it just that God is going to send me to hell for my unbelief when it is not under my control?

[00:06:46]Um I don't know exactly what to say to you.

[00:06:53]Um I I could you know talk about myself.

[00:06:56]Um there's going to come a time when it's difficult to have faith. Jesus described >> No, I'm asking you to directly answer the question. So why is it just that I am going to go to hell for something I cannot control?

[00:07:12]>> For something you cannot control.

[00:07:15]>> Yes.

[00:07:16]>> And what can you cannot control?

[00:07:18]>> My belief. So like I just said, I did not choose to stop believing.

[00:07:25]It was something that happened to me and I was heartbroken when it happened. Like it was not something I desired. And I asked God to help me with my unbelief. I prayed. I read my Bible. I even fasted.

[00:07:41]And I was not able to believe. So why is it just that I go to hell for something I could not control?

[00:07:51]>> I'm trying to understand your question.

[00:07:52]So something happened to you that caused you not to believe or you just >> It's a long story but it's not relevant to the point. Like the point is that I lost my belief and so in your belief system God is going to send me to hell for that.

[00:08:11]>> Well, um I would say to repent, you know, to return cuz if your a position is that you lost it, then I would say recover it.

[00:08:21]>> Okay. And that's possible.

[00:08:23]>> So you're not I don't think you're really understanding what I'm saying then.

[00:08:28]>> Like >> I I didn't lose my belief because I was bad and did something wrong and bad. Um, you know, if you talk to people who have gone through what I have gone through, you'll find that the majority of us were the ones who were the most dedicated, the most devout, and we were hungry for the Bible, and we read and studied and prayed and fasted, and we wanted more and more of God. And so to frame it as if I did something wrong, that would mean that everyone who held on to their belief did something right and it's my fault that I somehow caused my belief to go away. But belief doesn't work that way. Like there are a lot of things you can choose, but you cannot just like flip a switch in your brain and make yourself believe something.

[00:09:32]>> Um, you got to fight for you got to fight for the faith. I did for the faith.

[00:09:37]>> I did. I did fight for it. And your assumption that I didn't fight for it kind of sucks after >> like it makes me feel like you didn't listen to what I saying that you didn't fight for it, but I'm saying that you got to actively >> maintain it and and pursue it because you know again I did. So the last few years that I was a Christian, I set aside 2 hours every single day to read my Bible and pray. I had like my devotional quiet time. I budgeted two hours every single day to do that. And I faithfully did that because I deeply in my heart desired to be that close to God. I even fasted twice a week for a while just because I wanted, you know, my heart to be in the right place to hear from God. So I did fight for it. I did seek after it.

[00:10:37]>> Well, maybe.

[00:10:39]>> So I'm not asking you to diagnose me.

[00:10:41]>> I'm not trying to diagnose you. I'm asking you why it's fair that God is going to send me to hell for something I can't control.

[00:10:55]>> Um the the um there there's some interesting concepts.

[00:11:08]Um, I'm I'm trying not to just be trapped in a in a in a corner. Um, there's >> Can you just directly answer the question?

[00:11:17]I I I I think it's hubris for you to um determine what God's uh judgment towards you would be and and then to praise whether it's right or not.

[00:11:39]>> So you say if I don't believe in God, there's a chance I could still go to heaven.

[00:11:46]Well, what I'm saying is that I mean if you um have an evil heart of unbelief, there's a concept called unbelief.

[00:11:55]>> Wait, did you say an evil heart of unbelief?

[00:11:58]>> That's not my phrase.

[00:11:59]>> I'm sorry. I literally couldn't hear you. I was >> I did I did say that phrase, but I'm I'm telling you that's not my phrase.

[00:12:06]There's an admonition that says, "Beware lest an evil heart of unbelief cause you to depart from the faith." Okay. So, I didn't have an evil heart.

[00:12:15]>> And I'm not saying that that's the case, but I'm saying to begin with with the unbelief and then begin to indict the righteous or the holy God >> for not being just.

[00:12:29]>> Okay. [clears throat] Let's back up just a second because a minute ago you said it was hubris for me to assume I knew what God was going to do.

[00:12:38]>> Yeah. I I I just that >> hubris for you.

[00:12:42]>> I'm going to backpedal that.

[00:12:43]>> Right. Is that correct? It's hubris for you to assume that you >> I backpedal that. I recanted that because the hubris what I was trying to say the hubris part is to indict God for um his judgment on unbelief.

[00:13:02]>> Okay. So wait, his judg Okay. So, what you're saying is you do think it is just that I'm going to hell for something I can't control.

[00:13:16]>> I don't know if you're going to hell.

[00:13:18]And and the reason why I say that cuz I I don't know if you're going to be in a state of unbelief forever. You you may believe tomorrow.

[00:13:25]>> Okay. So like hypothetically if I died tomorrow not believing and I don't have any magical deathbed conversion >> in your belief system I would go to hell then >> because belief is more than just belief.

[00:13:46]>> Belief is more than belief.

[00:13:48]>> Yes. belief is um it's almost like your vote or your choosing of God.

[00:14:01]So once you believe that God is real, then you absolutely can choose to follow him, choose to be devoted to him, choose to put your trust in him. But before you can do any of those things, you have to first be convinced that he even exists at all.

[00:14:21]>> Right?

[00:14:22]>> And that's the part you cannot control.

[00:14:26]>> Um I don't know if I believe that you have no control in that. One of the things I would encourage you to do is >> Oh, so I don't I don't want advice here.

[00:14:37]Um, can you imagine what like if I told you that there's a god that you need to believe in? And if you don't believe in this god that I'm telling you about, let's I'm just going to make one up, right? It's Checkers the bunny. And you have to believe that Checkers is a god.

[00:14:56]And if you don't believe that, you're going to burn in hell forever.

[00:15:00]Just hypothetically, theoretically, what would you do to make yourself believe that my bunny is actually God? Like, what would you do? How would you choose to believe that?

[00:15:17]>> Uh, you're saying that we have to make ourselves believe it because Is that what you're saying? I'm I'm trying to get you to understand what it's like to not believe something >> and have Christians tell you that you're choosing to not believe something.

[00:15:35]>> Well, this is the reason why this is the reason why I said I don't know if you're going to hell because I don't know if that's going to be your state forever.

[00:15:43]>> But that's dodging the question like that.

[00:15:45]>> You're not trying to dodge the question.

[00:15:46]>> I know. But you are. Even though you're not trying to.

[00:15:50]>> So, okay. my I cannot make myself believe in God. Like there are a lot of things I can do. I can read more. I can research. I can have conversations. I can choose all of those things. But I cannot just like make myself believe.

[00:16:08]It's that part of it is not under my control.

[00:16:13]>> One thing um that could be done and this is not advice is that you could just chill.

[00:16:21]and relax a little bit.

[00:16:22]>> No, I did that for 14 >> until your heart aches.

[00:16:25]>> I I known for 14 years >> and then when you >> I can you like I did that too. So I stopped believing in God in 2009 and I just chilled for 14 years.

[00:16:44]So again, I'm not instead of trying to solve the problem, I'm trying to get you to look at the problem. And the problem is in your belief system, your God is going to punish me for something I can't control and and you're not really facing that >> because partly I I don't think I have enough information. Um, >> so the question is, can you make yourself believe something?

[00:17:16]>> I know that you could choose to to not believe or to choose to um >> to if you can choose to not believe, that means right now you are capable of just not believing in God at all.

[00:17:34]>> I think I had a light bulb come on.

[00:17:39]some brilliant flash of brilliance.

[00:17:42]Um, believing and knowing, you know, I I talk about this sometimes and I use an example and it's a relationship example.

[00:17:51]If you was a young lady and you were single and you wanted to be in a relationship and you're just sitting in a park on a spring day and a handsome guy walks up to you, >> what >> you don't you don't know him from Adam.

[00:18:05]They don't know if he's a serial killer.

[00:18:07]>> Knowing God would come after believing he's real. Like we we're still on the belief.

[00:18:14]>> That's why I'm trying to say baby steps.

[00:18:16]>> No.

[00:18:17]>> And >> so you said that you could choose to stop believing.

[00:18:23]>> Yes, sir.

[00:18:23]>> A person can choose to stop believing in him. I'm not saying that's your case, but >> I know. No. Okay.

[00:18:29]>> So, if it's possible, you could prove me wrong right now. Can you turn off your belief in God?

[00:18:39]>> People do it all the time.

[00:18:40]>> Can you do it right now?

[00:18:44]>> I could if I wanted to, but >> but you're not going to.

[00:18:48]>> No, I'm not going to.

[00:18:50]>> Why not?

[00:18:50]>> And what I mean by that, what I mean by that is, you know, some people they get offended with God. I'm not saying this is your case. And then they'll they'll allow and even create a cognitive dissonance against the idea of God. And in their mind, they'll alive him with rhetoric and philosophy and logic and impeaching and indicting who he is. I'm not saying that that's what you did. But what you're saying is a fair thing. If you're saying that, hey, I'm having trouble in the belief department.

[00:19:20]That's not something for me to hit you with a hammer with. In my example that I was trying to lay out, >> she doesn't know You need to face the fact that your in your belief system your god would send me to hell for that and you keep dodging that point.

[00:19:37]>> Well, if he's the only salv Okay, say say like >> can I possibly go to he here? Let me put it this way. If I don't believe God is real, can I possibly go to heaven?

[00:19:56]>> I don't think so. Um I I I don't >> I believe you and I think Christians agree with you like in the Christian system you can't go to heaven if you're an atheist.

[00:20:06]>> And the thing the thing is this that if he's re if if a if a young man wants to marry you and you have the ability to either marry him or not or accept him or not.

[00:20:24]And that's just a natural example of a basic example of, you know, love in a relationship. But what I'm saying, if God wants to save you, if you need saving and if God wants to save you and like you can tell the charming young man, I don't want nothing to do with you and everything.

[00:20:44]You can tell you can tell God that >> stopping your metaphor because you are your metaphor. If he's your salvation and you reject him, then you reject your salvation.

[00:20:54]>> Stop for a minute.

[00:20:55]>> Because your metaphor only works if I already believe God is real. Your metaphor doesn't work because it would be like you telling me that, oh, there's this guy who loves you. Oh, but you can't meet him and you can't hear from him and you can't ever see him. You just need to trust me that this guy over there loves you. and I have to just be convinced that he's real. Like you you can't jump into using a relationship metaphor because in any other relationship you don't have to question whether the person is real.

[00:21:31]>> Whoa. So that's again all that stuff is later but first right now what again you don't want to face is that your god is going to send me to hell because I'm not convinced that he's real.

[00:21:48]>> You can scientifically uh understand that he's real.

[00:21:53]>> I do not scientifically understand that he is real.

[00:21:57]>> Maybe I should take the conversation this way. There's ways to entreat God.

[00:22:03]You know, when we used to go to the old churches, they they used to teach us the important of praising God could be. I noticed that. I know. Don't get frustrated and impatient with me. I know.

[00:22:15]>> Because you're But check this out.

[00:22:17]They're principles when treating him.

[00:22:20]>> You know, the reason why they taught us to praise him because he he inhabits the praises of his people.

[00:22:26]>> Why would any praise Why would any pray to a god they didn't think was real. How much time do you >> Because you got to step out because you got to step by step out on faith. The scripture that you're near is without faith it is impossible to please me. You got to go through the door faith blind faith. Dear stop >> I need you to have a moment of empathy here. Okay. I want you to try to step into my shoes just for a minute.

[00:22:55]>> [sighs] >> How much time would you spend trying to praise a different god that you don't think is real?

[00:23:07]Like how you are you don't think Zeus is real, right? I know. I'm assuming you don't think Zeus is real. So, how much time and effort do you currently put in trying to convince yourself that Zeus is real? I'm guessing nothing. I think Zeus is a demon. Um, but if I heard the declaration, I'm not trying to quote scriptures because they're going to sound cliche to you, but there's a principle that says faith comes by hearing. So when you hear the declaration of him, it's going to stir his word is such that it's going to stir up something like, could that be true?

[00:23:47]>> So again, when you hear that, >> you're not listening to what I said previously. I spent two hours a day reading the Bible. And I wasn't doing it out of works or trying to be good enough. I was doing it out of genuine desire to be with God.

[00:24:06]>> So if what you're saying that I needed to hear the word in order to believe it, I was hearing the word.

[00:24:14]>> But that's that's that's one way to stir up could that be true? But reading of the word is not not exactly how to treat him entreat him. Okay.

[00:24:23]>> You haven't really focused on like I don't [clears throat] think you're capable of empathy in this moment.

[00:24:29]>> I'm capable of empathy but I feel like I don't want to enable you cuz you said you done waited about 14 years and haven't reached the resolution.

[00:24:37]>> Yeah.

[00:24:39]>> Enablement >> because you said you said you said since 2009 which I guess that's 14. I don't know how many years that is. I mean, my mind works, but I'm tired right now. Um, so you said since 2009, you you haven't had resolution of this particular thing. And so, if I just only stay in empathy, >> it's about time. It's about time for some kind of resolution.

[00:25:04]>> I didn't say that.

[00:25:05]>> There are other ways to entreat God.

[00:25:07]It's not only reading the scripture.

[00:25:08]>> Say, I didn't have a resolution. You just made that up. I didn't say that.

[00:25:14]>> Okay. But that's that's my word of my you know estimation of things.

[00:25:18]>> So I just asked you to try to have some empathy and instead of having empathy you you are making up what you think my position is. Empathy is is where you actually try try to put yourself in my shoes. Try to see the world from my perspective. Not try to make me fit into what you think.

[00:25:42]But I didn't bring up the danger of hell fire, but that was something that was >> like not capable of that in this moment.

[00:25:52]>> Um, >> yeah, I I I I'll give you a moment of silence, but the urgency is dear.

[00:25:59]>> Well, I hope you have a good night, but this conversation >> you just left to 14 other years until you pass out of here.

[00:26:08]>> [snorts] >> I do not think he understood a single word that I said. [snorts] I think um yeah, I do think there is a point in which if you were to empathize with me, you might possibly see a problem with your beliefs, like a problem with the logic of your beliefs, and that's too hard. And so you you could see the the roundabout or the walls he kept putting up because he was not going to um he was not going to look honestly at anything.

[00:27:06]Okay. Thanks, Anna.

[00:27:09][snorts] Hey sir.

[00:27:23]>> Hi.

[00:27:23]>> Hi.

[00:27:24]>> Hi. How you doing guys? I just want to say like I've been coming on a couple weeks now and I'm sure everyone noticed in the chat, Charlie, [clears throat] Dr. Joe and you and I really like what you're doing for people who don't believe, you know, in your religion and I understand, you know, and I'm a Catholic and I have my beliefs, but I would never come on here to tell anyone you're going to hell for your beliefs.

[00:27:46]Like, that's my belief. You know what I mean? That's my what I believe. And if you don't, who cares, you know? One of us might be wrong and who cares where we are. just why would I come in here just to like, you know, do what these people do to you? I don't get it. Like I have one of my best friends is an atheist and I'm we always joke about it. We're like, "Your God's real, my God's not real."

[00:28:07]That's what this this world's about, you know? It's just it's not about making someone feel bad cuz they don't have a belief. And if you had a really hard time religion, I get it. You know, growing up Catholic, you believe in like saints and you know, all these, you know, you know, Catholicism is. There's no point to make anyone feel bad. And that's what sucks. And I I just wish that people would come in here and stop making you guys feel so bad for your non-beliefs. It's who gives a [ __ ] Oh, sorry. Who gives a [laughter] who gives a [ __ ] You know what I mean? Like who who cares what you don't believe? Like you're just honestly you guys are good people. Like I've honestly watched your chat and Dr. Joe would tell you and maybe Charles would. I've watched Christians come on here and just be so mean to you guys for no reason. There's no reason to make you guys feel the way you guys do. You're doing a good thing, sir. you you're deconstructing religion.

[00:28:55]It's not what people think it is. It's it's way more than that. Your whole life was engulfed in this. And I understand where you guys are coming from. Like, you know, Catholicism is not maybe as it's all different religions, but like to make you guys feel like this. There's no need. There's literally no need to like who cares. Well, I mean, I certainly understand the fervor of evangelicals because they feel responsibility for everyone else's eternal destination. And so they feel like they are supposed to convert people and if they don't, those people will go to hell and it will be their fault.

[00:29:36]Um, but I agree though. What really confuses me is how many Christians come on, announce themselves as Christian, and then get really rude and angry. And I think so many of the conversations that I do have are with people who just want to win the conversation. And I get it. I mean, debating is fun. Like, I get that.

[00:30:02]>> No, it is. It's um I can't imagine that that's what Jesus would have wanted.

[00:30:08]>> No. And Jesus would not want this. And like right now you and I are having a conversation. You know that I'm a believer and I know you're not a believer, but I don't. It doesn't affect my life. I'm not going to go out there to say Sarah or people in your chat, hey, believe. That's not my That's not my job in life.

[00:30:22]>> You know, my job in life is to believe what I believe. And your job is to believe what you don't believe. Doesn't make you a bad person. Doesn't make me a bad person. It's just we are who we are.

[00:30:30]You know what I mean? Like who gives a who gives a flying, you know? [laughter] Who gives a fly? But I do I I really I took an interest in you. I in fact a couple about a month ago I was on your live and I remember I was in I was working in the gym and I I like listen to how you talk to people and I said she's very respectful like and these people come on they make you feel so bad like the last >> Don't I mean don't worry too much like I I'm pretty um inoculated against uh the words of of people who dare to insult me. So don't worry I'm okay.

[00:31:00]>> And I know and you know let me tell you something. I always say like you can handle yourself and I watch you to last.

[00:31:04]Like you're you're smart. You're very intelligent and you definitely handle yourself very well. But I just want to say to all Christians if they're listening right now, just leave people alone. If they don't want to believe, who cares? This is our own being. This is our own per we're one person. We don't have to answer to anybody but ourselves at the end of the day. So if someone doesn't believe what we believe in, let them be. That's their belief.

[00:31:26]And they're still there. There's better people in this chat than probably Christians because most Christians make people feel bad. I never once was in this chat and an atheist made me feel bad. You know what it was? A Christian or you know a person who believed in Catholicism. They made me feel horrible.

[00:31:42]You guys never ever once ever said to me, "Hey, you you don't you know you're a believer. You're an a-hole." No. I watched the Christians come on here and just attack you guys for no reason.

[00:31:52]There's no need for this. There really isn't. cuz that's the whole that's the whole point of life is getting through it and being happy. They shouldn't make you feel like this. And I just I always want to come on here and just tell you, you know, what a good job you're doing.

[00:32:03]>> And good for you guys. If you found your happiness and you're happy, more more power to you. Who gives a [ __ ] That's just, you know what I mean? Like, who cares?

[00:32:11]>> Yeah.

[00:32:12]>> You're you're very good people. You really are. And there's no difference between you and I. We just have a different belief, but we could agree, right?

[00:32:18]>> Absolutely.

[00:32:20]>> And that's all I care about. As long as you're happy and it's a pleasure watching you. Seriously. So, carry on, guys, and hope to see us. [laughter] I'm always in here.

[00:32:30]>> Well, thanks for coming. I appreciate it.

[00:32:32]>> All right. Have a good night.

[00:32:33]>> Bye.

[00:32:34]>> Bye.

[00:32:35][snorts] >> Uh, he's great. I definitely have seen him for a while. It's It's nice to chat.

[00:32:43][sighs] I knew that would be a nice palette cleanser. Um, [laughter] uh, you know, it's interesting doing this. Um, someone who used to watch me a long time ago came back on who, um, I think hadn't seen me in a long time and um, commented like, "Wow, you're a lot more aggressive than you used to be." And I think I really like debate or think like how I don't know how to do this. Well, um, but I think what's hard is if I don't interrupt people, then they take the conversation somewhere totally different and they get off track and they just use the platform to preach and that's not what it is. And so, um, yeah, I am, I guess, David, I am more direct. And I think you can be direct and be kind, um, at the same time. So, I don't know. I just [sighs] Yeah, I do think about that.

[00:34:04]Hi.

[00:34:06]>> Hello. How's it going?

[00:34:07]>> All good. How are you?

[00:34:09]>> Good, thanks. Um, are you at least 18?

[00:34:12]>> Yeah, I'm I'm actually 32. I was born 94. Yeah. [laughter] Thank you so much for having me here.

[00:34:17]>> Yay. You bet. What can I do for you?

[00:34:19]>> Um, nothing. I was just interested in what you were saying. I was just passing by and I just finished work and I was just looking at Tik Tok and I saw >> you don't deserve hell and I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." I stayed here for a while. Um heard heard the other guy speaking with you.

[00:34:36]>> Okay.

[00:34:37]>> Heard the debate and I was like, "All right, let me let me see what's up. Join the conversation." [laughter] >> Okay. So, I'm I'm just going to guess by your profile picture that you're a Christian.

[00:34:49]>> Yes, I'm Catholic Christian. Um I'm born and raised actually I'm I'm Marinite. So we're like few so we're descendants from Catholic church in the Middle East. I'm from Lebanon. So we're like few people like uh the we we follow s uh Maroon who is actually from the Catholic church. It's a whole thing.

[00:35:14]Yeah. But it's actually we're followers of the Catholic Church. We're very similar.

[00:35:18]>> Okay. So yeah, it's very interesting.

[00:35:22]Um, so yeah, I don't I don't believe every anyone deserves to be in hell based on my belief and based on everything that I've been taught in my life and how I foresee life. I have a kid of I have a child and [clears throat] I always wondered that's a question because um uh it's very interesting by the way and I praise you for one thing um that whenever people are and that's from Christian perspective and I'm not trying to be offensive but I'm going to be straightforward with you because I noticed that you're straightforward from a lot of Christian perspective is when people fall into you know like disbelief or we call that their weakest point like when you're at your weaker point from a Christian perspective when you lose faith or when you lose hope we uh so when a lot of Christians go through that phase they don't share a lot so they don't share their um experiences or in that moments they don't talk about it or how it made them feel because a lot of Christians go through that they don't believe for some sort of time you know they don't believe God exists to that point like I personally myself I went through the struggle in some points of my life and I started doubting in my faith and went through all of that. But from I'm not trying to be offensive here. I'm just trying to give you like >> Yeah. No, I mean agree to that. Right.

[00:36:42]>> Not offensive. Um perhaps um you So you said you don't think anyone deserves hell. Um >> definitely.

[00:36:51]>> Do you believe in hell?

[00:36:53]>> Of course I believe um I believe in God.

[00:36:56]So if automatically when you believe in God, you got to believe that there's something evil in this world. So >> well I mean if you don't have to [laughter] um >> no you don't have to >> different kinds of gods but >> [clears throat] >> um so do you believe there are any humans in hell >> um I believe um hell is a state. So um uh it could be a physical form. I'm not I like I'm still in physical form on earth. So I never experienced so I can't tell you exactly from from my mindset like for sure >> I can't just tell you yeah hell exist because I never touched that experienced that or whatever but I can tell you definitely that hell exists in forms and in some sort of forms and evil exists in so many forms. So if I want to go biblically um definitely hell exists in spiritual form and we saw that through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and through a lot of stories.

[00:37:55]>> Are there people there [snorts] >> physical people?

[00:37:59]>> I mean when people have died have any people and their souls ended up there or what however language. Um, honestly, do you want my perspective or the Christian like Catholic perspective?

[00:38:12]>> Oh, I want your perspective.

[00:38:14]>> My perspective is that from following Jesus Christ all over the years and I'm I'm definitely a sinner and through all the everything that I went through through my life, I can tell you that um God doesn't want anyone to be in hell. And the reason why he came on earth is to disallow us from going in hell to hell. So if if humans if humans and if humans wants to choose to go to hell, they they're welcome to do that.

[00:38:48]But I don't think that because we can agree us like as Christians or atheists or as humans in general that there's a lot lot of people >> I do think that there are people there >> if they choose to. Yes.

[00:39:01]>> Who do you think chooses to go to hell?

[00:39:03]people who does evil and they're aware of it.

[00:39:08]>> I see.

[00:39:09]>> Yeah. I don't believe that a person who just goes through phases in their lives who just choose um you know like for example if if I went through hell and I was on life like if I went through bad experience I'm sorry about my English by the way. I'm really sorry. I'm trying to make it that >> that's okay.

[00:39:26]>> Yeah.

[00:39:26]>> Is it your second language?

[00:39:28]>> Yeah it is. It is my third language actually. Oh, well then you're doing spectacularly.

[00:39:33]>> Thank you. I appreciate you. So, I believe that if a person chooses he knows that he's doing evil and he keeps choosing to do evil over the years and he's not um uh like he he's not choosing to change that. I seriously believe that's going to cost him a lot.

[00:39:50]>> Okay. So then do atheists who don't believe in God but are sort of medium good people do they go to heaven?

[00:40:02]That's a great question and I used to suffer from that a lot growing up asking my dad, asking priests, asking a lot of people who are involved in church and I came to self understanding being close to Jesus and I found out that there's a lot of people on earth who doesn't know Jesus like for example there's a lot of tribes still you know for who doesn't know >> anything about gods maybe they're just living there >> and I had this after studying a little bit of theology um I had this suffering between me and myself and then I came to a conclusion that if Jesus is the word as we study and if Jesus is the spir and we have the spirit and we have the father and if we live by that unknowingly are we worthy for God and then I go to the end of times in the revelations where I read that Jesus will show himself to everybody and the the dead will rise, you know, and every knee shall bow and everybody everybody will admit that Jesus is Lord and those people who lived as good people but they never got the chance to meet him and he also mentions those who had faith in him without seeing him. So connecting.

[00:41:22]>> So like um what about somebody like me?

[00:41:25]Um >> yeah, sorry.

[00:41:28]>> I definitely, you know, I've read the whole Bible cover to cover several times. So it's not that I am unaware. Um I just am not convinced it's true.

[00:41:41]>> Yeah. And that's that's that's totally normal. We're not we're humans. So if you it's like you telling me um I read something about physics or whatever and I just can't find logic in it for example would I blame you? I would say no. Why? Because you never experienced it maybe. Or maybe you did experience it and it it wasn't enough for you to >> Yeah.

[00:42:08]>> to to hit you hard. That's what I'm trying to say. There's moments in life where it changes everything.

[00:42:13]So I'm just so to understand your belief system then um it's not it is not your belief in God that gets you to heaven or hell.

[00:42:25]>> It definitely helps. It definitely helps. And this is where I was trying to make a a like a conclusion over what I was saying about the revelation at the end of times and that connecting all those. It brought me back to a conclusion where God sees us for who we are deeply inside of us and he will definitely and since he chose at the end of times to reveal himself to us. So those who will who will feel that love because they did love and they did good in their lives.

[00:42:56]They will definitely bow to him and they will admit that he is Jesus Christ.

[00:42:59]Right?

[00:43:00]>> So if I'm I'm asking you a question. Let me ask you the question just to make it easier.

[00:43:04]>> So if you don't believe right now, right? And you believe that nobody deserves hell and you believe that doing good in in life is amazing. You you believe that stealing is wrong. Right.

[00:43:14]>> Right.

[00:43:15]>> For example, killing is wrong. Right.

[00:43:17]Sorry about the word like on Tik Tok. So we we we agree on these things. So what's left is for our mind to actually know that God exists or see him or feel him or you know have him in our lives.

[00:43:33]So if that if that if God gives us that opportunity when the time comes, why wouldn't you believe?

[00:43:40]>> Okay. So um >> if he reveals himself to you, why?

[00:43:43]>> Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is we're not limited to this earthly life that we are able to make a choice after we die and have all the information.

[00:43:57]>> I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?

[00:43:59]>> Yeah. Yeah, no problem. So after we like if we get a chance after we die and then later, you know, when we're resurrected, um then we get a chance like then we get to see God and see Jesus and know for sure that they are real. You're saying then we get to make our choice.

[00:44:23]>> Then I feel like your true intentions on earth will reveal in heaven. So for this is what I'm trying to tell you. So if your intentions on earth were good, like you you always had good in your heart, you didn't want to steal, you knew it was wrong, you knew everything like cheating, all of those commandments, >> but you suffered from understanding that God exists, right? Like you suffered from believing in that, putting your faith in it.

[00:44:49]>> I'm just asking then >> if he revealed yourself, let's say you were on your deathbed and somehow he revealed himself, >> but that's not the question. So, I'm I'm just wanting to confirm that you believe that if I don't believe in Jesus while I'm alive, I will get another chance after I die.

[00:45:09]>> That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm I believe that through death, there will be a moment where you will experience Jesus love and his existence. And that moment will reveal your intentions and everything you live through by your life. And by that time you will be judged.

[00:45:28]>> So I'm judged I I'm judged on my intentions >> of course.

[00:45:34]>> Okay. So it's whether like it's my intentions that either send me to heaven or hell.

[00:45:41]>> It's it's your intentions. Yeah. Of course. Because if you know something is wrong and you're still choosing to do something wrong, that's your that's your choice. This is where your choice acts.

[00:45:51]>> Yeah. But if you didn't know that this is wrong, let's say a kid steals a can of popcorn.

[00:45:55]>> No, I I get it. I get it. So, um >> Gosh, Checkers is being crazy tonight.

[00:46:02]>> Say hello. Um [laughter] >> this cute bunny.

[00:46:08]>> Thanks.

[00:46:10]Um okay, now I I lost my train of thought because I was thinking of the bunny. Um ah so [snorts and gasps] the point being is that we like could a Christian believe in God but have bad intentions and then they would go to hell?

[00:46:32]>> Yes.

[00:46:33]And a lot of them go to prayers on Sundays and they act, oh, we're so lovey and they judge you and they hate you and they don't know what they're doing in their lives. And you see it in a lot of families. Oh, this is a Christian family. what where did it go wrong?

[00:46:48]Maybe because you guys uh had the intentions of forcing some stuff on their your kids or do this and that. It doesn't it doesn't change anything that you're Christian in my opinion. It helps you definitely it guides you. The Bible guides you. The Bible helps you. But if you're still living in bad intentions in your heart, it will never change anything. But if you're living with good intentions in your heart, but you don't know the Bible, that's enough for God to see you. And this is why we're called the children of God. We're not slaves.

[00:47:23]>> Well, in the Bible, you do occasionally are you are occasionally called slaves, but >> I mean I mean back in the days I mean you can you can you know if you want to go to word to word by the ages and like it's different.

[00:47:37]>> It's fine. I just Yeah. No, I'm I I understand what you're trying to say, but it's it different. There's so many words that became different over the ages. Like, for example, I'm I got it.

[00:47:49]>> You get what I'm saying? Yeah, it's common sense.

[00:47:51]>> I know. I I was just making a a kind of a joke. We don't have to go down there.

[00:47:56]>> Um Okay. So, well, I um I think I get it. I appreciate your perspective and it certainly seems more fair than what most Christians believe. Um, so I uh I I think most I think many Christians would disagree with you.

[00:48:17]>> Yeah, definitely.

[00:48:18]>> But I um Yeah, I appreciate you.

[00:48:21]>> Do you know why? Can I can I just finish my sent one sentence and I will go down.

[00:48:24]I'm sorry. I will leave my space for another person. It's because people are so worried of proving other people wrong. They go for the scripture and they keep reading and reading and reading and they just think it's like math or physics or whatever. So you can't convince someone that 1 plus 1 equals two all like do you get what I'm saying? But there are situations in life where 1 plus 1 doesn't equal two for you. Like if that makes sense in some sort of ways because logic sometimes goes against wording things or just just following robotically words. Applying things in life and experience in life is completely different. And going by that, we've we've been shown and we have proofs that actions and intentions in life are are at the end of the day what matters. I can talk here for 7 hours [laughter] or I can just share a couple of things. You get what I'm saying? At the end of the day, how we live is what matters. That's it.

[00:49:24]>> Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:49:26]>> No problem. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:49:28]>> You're welcome. I hope you have a great night.

[00:49:30]>> You too. Bye. Bye. Bye.

[00:49:33]>> [snorts] >> Well, I certainly do think that that perspective is more logical and more fair than the idea that we're all terrible and evil and um we like heaven and hell is determined by whether you're convinced something is true. Um, so I I mean I do I do appreciate that um that perspective for sure.

[00:50:08]Okay, I don't have that