Small claims explained – fighting bigotry in service provision

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[00:00:00]Hello, I'm Maya Forstata, CEO of Sex Matters.

[00:00:03]>> And I'm Helen Joyce, the director of advocacy.

[00:00:07]>> And this week we are talking about uh a new guide that we have published on taking small claims about uh gender critical belief discrimination. Helen, tell us about it. So, we've been thinking about this for quite a long time because people get on to us or people we know, we meet them at things and they tell us with some regularity how they have been uh subjected to what is called belief discrimination on the grounds of their gender critical beliefs and sometimes that's because they're known people. You know, they they're out and talk about this issue and then they maybe go into a pub or they go to a venue or something like that and they're asked to leave just because of who they are. But sometimes it's because people complain about the lack of single sex services or they complain because there is a man in the lady's toilet and that is them manifesting their belief that sex is real and that men who identify as women don't belong in women's spaces and for that then they're kicked out of the space. And ever since your um your employment appeal tribunal which established that gender critical beliefs are protected under the equality act, it's been clear that that sort of discrimination is illegal. So we thought like how do you help people on mass to take cases in this the cases that people have taken to date have mostly been in employment because um it's obviously it's illegal there too but in employment you go to the employment tribunal and there is although there's not going to be like massive compensation in terms of more than making you whole. There's the possibility of making you whole and also people need their jobs and when they've gone into trouble at work they do end up sometimes taking cases. But if you go to a gym or a shopping center or something like that and you experience this, you know, it's hard to know what to do. Um, so we thought, well, we'll help people.

[00:01:50]We'll help people to find out what to do.

[00:01:53]>> And and we and we wanted to try it out ourselves. I mean, we we I think um one of the first people we saw who' done this successfully was uh Wings over Scotland who uh is a blogger who uh mainly blogs about Scottish independence but also has talked about sex and gender quite a lot. um and his accountant uh said that he wouldn't do business with him and so Wings uh issued a small claim and successfully uh got got compensation. Um and then we have sort of held quite a few people's hands through this process and have learned how it works. And it is of course something that um the people who were pushing trans inclusion used in the other direction probably starting about 20 years ago where they took cases against for example pub owners who would tell a trans woman that he wasn't allowed to go into the ladies and then they would bamboozle because it's never been the case that that man has had the right to go into the ladies. They would bamboozle by saying that's illegal.

[00:02:55]We're going to take you to court. I mean often it didn't go to court. In fact I don't think it ever fully went to court, >> right? But people would give in and then they would pay a bit of compensation and then they would change their rules. So this sort of case, even though it's not got that big sort of it's going to make the news, it's going to get put into workplace training eventually countrywide, it actually is an important lever in making people understand that the risks are not on the side of telling the man to stay out. The risks are on the side of letting the man in.

[00:03:25]>> Yes. And and you simply you can't go around discriminating against people. um and small claims or in Scotland they call it simple procedure. In the UK I think it's called um uh court claims or money claims but it's what used to be called small claims. Um it's quite a familiar process. Lots of people have used it if you know if you buy a washing machine and it doesn't work and they and it's in within its guarantee period and they don't take it back. It's it's those kinds of things where your rights have been um just obviously uh disregarded and you need to get a small amount of compensation for it. There is this process which means that you don't need a lawyer um and you can uh start the process on your own and most of them settle. They don't go to court. The the service provider realizes that they made a mistake and they they have to put it right by you. So, you know, if it's your washing machine, they have to give you um the wash, you know, you need the washing machine um and potentially some compensation. So, it's it's kind of small beans um issues, but they add up because so many service providers have been trained to think that it's legitimate to discriminate against people who express gender critical beliefs. Either directly saying that those beliefs are um harmful, transphobic, bigoted, and therefore you shouldn't be able to express them, or saying this bananaama thing, it's not how you it's not what you said, it was how you said it. and that what you said was um you were you were discriminated on the basis of how you said it. But often once you unpick that a bit, it turns out how you said it wasn't objectionable either. Um and and what it really is is that service providers have all been trained or they've just the water that their staff are swimming in is that you can discriminate against gender critical people with impunity and you can't. I mean one of the things we saw because I mean as as you said Mayer we have been kind of handholding quietly I mean sometimes just with friends and talking them through these things is um just how unbelievably blatant the discrimination is. Uh so I remember talking when I think it was I think it was shortly after I joined sex matters talking to some lawyers about what had happened um when the race relations act was passed so decades and decades ago and what did happen over the next sort of 5 to 10 years is that uh people would bring cases about race discrimination and the person on the other side wouldn't even understand what they had done like they didn't even think they'd done something wrong and there was this kind of progression where somebody might start like the first cases were people going well and I know I haven't hired a black person, but I mean, you know, I no one will work with them. At which point it's kaching, you've just admitted to race discrimination and the case is over. And then it moved to being, well, you know, we're not racist. We're not bigoted, but the customers are, so I can't have a black person on reception. Again, kaching, that's not an excuse. And we're very much there still on gender critical belief discrimination in that the um bigotry and the prejudice are really out and proud. So often in a discrimination case, it's very hard to establish that what you suffered was actually because of discrimination. Like the employer will say, you know, I'm not discriminating against whatever the group is, disabled people, black people, women. It's just that this particular worker or this particular customer is a bad person in this way. They did this thing. They, you know, they didn't stick to the terms and conditions. They don't come in on time. whatever it is. Whereas you're thinking all of that's an excuse after the fact, but it's hard to prove it. In these cases, what we hear from people is that someone will come over to them and say, "We don't like your type around here. You are a bigot. You are transphobic. We don't allow people like you in here. In this place, trans women are women, and someone who has your opinions has to get out." And then they'll repeat it. And then they'll repeat it on video, and they'll repeat it in front of witnesses. And then when you write to them, they'll repeat it again. Yeah.

[00:07:30]>> So in that sense they're very easy cases to establish.

[00:07:33]>> Yes. And and some of these cases I mean some of them are about um pubs and venue. I mean sort of things that happen on the night but some of them are about things like booking venues or trying you know trying to find an accountant or a service provider. And it's happened to Sex Matters several times where we've looked for someone to provide a service to the charity and we've had an email from them saying we don't feel comfortable working with you >> or even you don't align with our values.

[00:08:01]We've had that direct expression. You do not align with our values. That is not a valid reason to turn away somebody who is looking for a service from you.

[00:08:09]>> Exactly. And and so should we talk about how this how this process works? Um, >> before we do that, can we just say one more thing, which is that this is not exactly what a lot of people think it might be. We're not guiding people on how to complain about the fact that there isn't a single sex service somewhere. Um, there are several reasons for that, but one of them is that it's just more complex legally. Like the law on when people have to provide single sex services, not so much in employment, but in service provision, is not so clear-cut. And it may be that it's indirect discrimination to only provide mixed sex and such like, but there's less case law and it's much more fact dependent. So we aren't able to write it in this same at the moment at least in this same sort of DIY guide way. What we are able to do is to talk about belief discrimination on the basis that you think men shouldn't be in women's spaces or that sex is real generally or that you know you want to go somewhere and not see signs saying uh turf's not welcome here. I mean lots of places like that up that's belief discrimination against literally every single gender critical person who might want to come in. Um so just to um temper people's expectations this is about belief discrimination. It is not exactly about the provision of single sex spaces. and and we do have DIY guidance on how to complain against single sex services, but this specific bit of DIY guidance is how to potentially uh use the small claims process when you're discriminated against because of your belief.

[00:09:38]>> Yeah. So, let's talk that through. So, um as you said, this might be something that happened on the night. It might be something that you turned up to a pub and somebody recognized you or they overheard you talking to a friend about say a women's rights network meeting that she'd been at or that you're a supporter of sex matters or something like that and uh you go to the bar to buy a drink and they refuse you service and they tell you why as well. They say you're not welcome around here. Your type are not welcome around here. Or it could be that you go into a venue and it says turf's not welcome. Or it could be that you're trying to get a service like um getting someone help to help you with your taxes and then when they discover that you for example like wings over Scotland um stew that you blog on this issue they then say to you your values aren't aligned with me or I'm not comfortable working with you or you know I don't mind you but my staff might mind you or any of those sorts of things. So that's the situation we're in. you think that you are experiencing discrimination on the basis of the fact that you hold or are thought to hold gender critical beliefs. So Maya, tell us about the types of discrimination, the types of belief discrimination in particular. So um there is the there's direct discrimination which is where you are refused a service or given a um less good service because you hold a protected characteristic including manifesting the protected characteristic of belief. that that's direct discrimination and that is um direct discrimination is always unlawful.

[00:11:11]But there is a defense against defense against it which is if you manifested your belief in an objectionable way. And so these are things like, you know, if you got into a shouting match with the bar staff or if you were flying in the pub and in some situations if you were wearing a t-shirt with a slogan on if in general this is a this is a situation where you're not not allowed to wear political slogans, but not if they're saying um it was fine for you to have a t-shirt that says trans women are women, but it's not fine for you to have a t-shirt that says trans women are men. So if you are generally acting in an appropriate way for the setting that you're in and you are turned away clearly for being gender critical that is direct discrimination.

[00:12:06]Indirect discrimination is where there is a rule or criterion uh or policy that applies to everyone but it is uh more detrimental to people who share a protected characteristic. So the rule that um men are allowed into women's training rooms is more detrimental both to women on the basis of sex and to people who hold gender critical beliefs for example that you shouldn't need to have um a legal discussion with the bar staff and it's probably in fact not a good idea to have a legal discussion with the bar staff because they don't know they don't know the law and you know it can quickly turn into a shouting match. Um, I mean, I think the thing to do in a situation is to kind of try to treat try to take the heat out of it.

[00:12:58]Try to treat it in the way that you would any other example of poor service.

[00:13:03]You know, there's a fly in my soup. Can I speak to the manager, you know, be that kind of Karen? do try to do anything that isn't going to be held against you and say, you know, she, you know, she made our staff feel uncomfortable by shouting at them.

[00:13:20]That's a bad idea. But, you know, asking to see the manager if you're being given bad service is a fair and legitimate thing to do. Um but obviously this this um guidance is not so much about what to do on the night, but what to do afterwards to try and get um remedy for when you've been treated badly as a service user.

[00:13:42]>> But there are some things to think about in advance about what you might want to do on the night because one thing you do want to do is just to establish the facts. So you know if you don't actually know why they let made you leave um then you know it's hard to complain. So, if somebody says to you to that you must leave or that your type aren't welcome around here or they don't want your custom in some way, you could say, "Well, may I ask why?" Um, and then, you know, ask them to say it again. And I I've seen videos in these situations. If it's in a nightclub or a pub, you know, if and the bouncer has asked you to leave, you can say, "Well, tell me that again." And record it on your phone. But again, in this calm, quiet, respectable voice. Um, don't get into anything physical. I mean, I don't think many of the women in this do get into things that are physical, but some of the men are sometimes a bit tempted to, and it's not wise. Don't go knocking someone's phone out of their hand or anything like that. You put yourself in the wrong and complicate it all. Don't put yourself in the wrong here.

[00:14:35]>> Yeah, that's right.

[00:14:37]>> And >> okay, so it's happened. It's happened.

[00:14:39]What next?

[00:14:40]>> Um, and also if it's not clear why it happened or if you know you you can always email afterwards and say, you know, what's your policy? I I was told that the policy was that men are allowed into the women's changing rooms. Is this right? You know, and have them um clarify what their policy is. It It's um disheartening when you are discriminated against and you know, routinely discriminated against and you don't have to take every case. Even these small claims do take a lot of um kind of time and pain and heartache. Uh, and so there's no requirement on people to take every claim. You certainly shouldn't be going around looking for them. But where somebody um very explicitly discriminates against you because of a protected characteristic and there's just no excuse for it, then that seems like a good a good time to to start one of these. Um, >> yeah.

[00:15:38]>> I mean, two of two of our friends have taken cases against pubs. Well, actually in both cases it was because the person was known, but in one of them they're sort of publicly known and they went into a pub and it wasn't that the people there knew them, but they recognized one of them and they turned away an entire group on a special day at a celebration and said it was because this particular person was one of their member and repeated this when they were written to.

[00:16:00]So, you know, they actually backed down before it went to court when they received a a very legally knowledgeable letter from the group. Uh and then the other one is that the person was known locally and had then you know was known to have certain beliefs. And in neither case was anybody drunk. Neither case was anybody talking loudly and shouting and saying things that anybody else could have objected to like reasonably. They didn't get into an RGB bargy. But in both cases it was it's because it's you.

[00:16:28]It's because you're known what you're believing. They weren't wearing anything particular either. You know they weren't wearing rude slogans or aggressive slogans. So it was really slam dunk. But the second one has not backed down. The second one >> the person in question has had to has had to put in the small claim >> and they really still think that they're the ones who were agrieved. It's extraordinary.

[00:16:48]>> Yeah.

[00:16:48]>> So I think I think pick your battles. I suppose I suppose pick your battles will be the thing I'd say from all of that.

[00:16:53]>> Yes. And and consider the situation in a really cleareyed way. Um write it down.

[00:16:58]I mean you're going to have to write it down anyway. Um you know show it to your most sensible friend and and ask them to tell you whether you really should take this one or not. Um, >> yeah. And don't be unrealistic. Like, if you were drunk, that's fine. People can get drunk. There's nothing wrong with you being drunk. But it does stand against you when you're trying to say that you're really sure that you remember what happened and that you remember how you behaved.

[00:17:18]>> Yeah.

[00:17:18]>> You know, maybe maybe just let that one go, for example.

[00:17:22]>> The more that you have documentary evidence of what happened, you know, in writing or in video, um, you know, the clearer it is. Uh, >> yeah. So, okay. So, that's that's what happens on the night. you know, behave yourself, be sensible, get the evidence you need. Don't get into any back and forth. Um, and then I guess next what you do is you write it all down as you said, and we've suggested in the guide that you email it to yourself or a friend so that you've got a time stamp on it.

[00:17:48]>> Yeah. And and >> and so what then?

[00:17:50]>> Well, and one thing to say about time.

[00:17:52]Time is important because sometimes, you know, it's not the next day that you decide to take action. It's a little while later. And that's okay. But there is a time limit on these things. And the time limit is um six months minus one day. So you can um bring a discrimination claim in a goods and services situation within 6 months. In employment it's 3 months. Uh but before you get to court or before you get to bringing the claim um you have to go through the uh pre-claim process. So you can't start on the six month deadline.

[00:18:28]you have to start quite some time ahead of that. And so that that deadline is really important because once you get past six months, then the service provider has no incentive to to try and deal with your um complaint and give you any kind of remedy because it's just the claim has elapsed. So that so that's really important. Um >> then so then the thing to do as we say is to to read the guidance. Um, and our guidance is very similar to that.

[00:18:57]There's lots of guidance out there about bringing small claims which is written for people whose fridges have broken down and so on, but the process of it is all very similar. Um, so the thing you need to do is write them a letter before claim. And that's a sort of legal thing, but it's not you don't need a lawyer to do it for this type of claim. Um, it's designed that ordinary consumers can do it. and we've got a template for how to do it. And you're basically writing to them and saying, "This is a letter before claim. I'm putting you on notice that if you don't um uh solve the problem or give me uh a reasonable remedy that I will go to court. This is what happened. This is why I think it's discrimination.

[00:19:45]Um and you have 14 days to respond and this is what I would like." And then you set out, you know, if it's a um if it's a service where they could still turn around and give it to you, like, you know, you've hired a venue, for example, and then they've said you can't have that venue, it could be that all you want is very quickly for them to change their mind and just reinstate the booking. But if it's something that happened, you know, they've they've thrown you out of a pub, then obviously they can't get that get that night back for you, but they can uh give you compensation for uh for discriminating against you. And so you set out what it is that you would like and then you invite them to come back with um an answer.

[00:20:32]And I think looking down what we said in this guidance, the some of the things that jump out at me are like make sure that you're really being honest. Like if you are in any way exaggerated in something or if you think, oh well, you know, maybe I did say a bit more than I should have, but I'll leave that out.

[00:20:47]Don't do it like that. Either don't take this particular case, live to fight another day, or else admit it. I mean, it's not okay to discriminate against you. Even if you've got a bit upset, that's fine. You can say it. Um, so honest, concise, and don't exaggerate.

[00:21:02]And any evidence that you have. So the other places that you can get these sorts of letters that you mentioned that are talking about your fridge or your washing machine, they'll tell you to have any receipts, um, to have any emails that you sent, to have a log of any phone calls that you made, like the evidence that you've tried to fix this thing, any evidence you have on what it's cost you, for example, if you've had to stay home to let a workman in and that meant that you to take a day's leave, those sorts of things. So for us that's going to be um you know when you turned up wherever it was or when you made the booking um any conditions that there were to it evidence that you uh for example if there's a friend who can w you know can act as a witness that you didn't bring this upon yourself. If you spoke to a particular person ask their name and record it. Uh when when you talked to them any attempts you made to fix it. For example by asking the manager and saying look this isn't okay.

[00:21:56]just basically a clear um chronological uh the story of what happened you know >> and and that's that's the thing and then you say um what you want is a remedy. So listen, this isn't big book bucks people. This is not going to be that uh you know you can buy a new house on the basis of it and it shouldn't be either like it should be proportionate. Um there's a a thing called the Vento bands. I I actually meant to look up was Vento a person do you know?

[00:22:23]>> So Vento like in all these things Vento's per person in the employment tribunal case whose name then got attached to the thing. Um and so Vento is a series of bans for low, medium, and high um injury to feelings when someone has been uh discriminated against. And um the low band goes from I think it's about £1,000 to um about um 10 or 12,000 now I think. And anything that you would bring in a small claim process would be in that low band. Uh and then there's the medium and the high band. And the the highest band is for when you know somebody is subjected to uh racial abuse, you know, sort of very insulting long-term racial abuse in front of other people, humiliated, um that kind of thing. um the the more that it is um a a humiliating experience, the more that you are um uh you know put in a put in a position that is an injury to feelings. Not you know not only that you've been excluded from a place but that you've been um you know made to feel terrible about it. That all adds to the injury to feelings. But be, you know, but being excluded from something because of your protected belief is in itself injury to feelings in the same way that being excluded, you know, because you're Jewish, because you're Catholic and so on would be injury to feelings. And and people don't understand this. They don't think that gender critical belief has the same kind of um status and respect as other kinds of beliefs, but it does. Um >> I yeah I mean the um the then there are sort of exacerbating factors some of the people that we've talked to and supported through this process as they've done it themselves uh you know one as I said it was a special occasion so it was in it was a day that could never be got back you know and it was ruined and it was ruined in front of friends and relatives specifically I mean it's a bit like saying you know we don't have Jewish people in here in front of people who you've invited to that venue for your birthday like something similar to that >> and And then another one is if it um oh another person that we handheld uh was actually on their first date with someone. So they had invited someone to this particular venue for a date and then they were kicked out which is just obviously incredibly humiliating thing to happen on a first date. So if there's something like that you say it too.

[00:24:58]>> But basically you you have to there has to be an incentive on the other side to settle. So you know be reasonable. M and then the other big sort of injury to feelings is um you know a a policy of allowing um trans people into the facilities of the opposite sex in itself can be um dis uh indirect discrimination.

[00:25:23]But if you're in the women's changing rooms in the gym and you, you know, come to come face to face with a man with no clothes on, you know, that that is a much more um uh upsetting experience than just the policy that that that it might happen.

[00:25:43]both the discrimination but obviously um the experience that you went through um determines the the amount of compensation that you could ask for in that kind of situation.

[00:25:54]>> Yes. The sorts of things that we've um helped people to think through they've written things like that it was in front of other people um that it was somewhere that they go or had gone often so other people knew them and knew who they were that it was a special occasion and that it was particularly insulting words that were used about them because it's remarkable. I mean it really it really is one of the very few remaining socially acceptable prejudices. Uh the prejudice against gender critical people. So people will talk about people with gender critical beliefs in a way that maybe 50 years ago they might have talked about um you know a racial minority or something like with just really overt bigotry >> and some of them then put it on social media afterwards. You know we're proud that we kicked out this terrible bigot.

[00:26:36]I mean that you know that's huge injury to feelings when they broadcast.

[00:26:40]>> Yeah. And I mean even the signs. I've gone into pubs that have had signs up saying no turfs on our turf. I mean I haven't done anything about it because honestly I could be complaining about bigotry towards me all day and I wouldn't get any work done.

[00:26:51]>> But I mean that on its own is it's it's literally in law equally bad as putting up a sign saying no Jews welcome here.

[00:26:59]Yeah.

[00:26:59]>> I mean the I don't know if there ever really were any signs that said no blacks or Irish. I think they might have been mostly apocryphal. But I mean no turfs is absolutely not apocryphal. It's all over the place and it is belief discrimination.

[00:27:11]>> Yeah. And and also what you're asking for in your first letter is is your opening position in the negotiation.

[00:27:17]They're going to come if if they want to settle, they might come back with a with a lower offer and then you can decide whether to take that take that offer or or come back with a with another offer.

[00:27:28]I mean that there's there's no real science to this.

[00:27:32]>> Yeah. And it depends on what you want. I mean, um, it's quite common for a business that wants to settle to try to put conditions on you that you don't talk about it, for example. Um, and we, in our experience, that has been a bit of a sticking point with people who want to take these cases because they're so outraged. But I mean there is no incentive on a company if they think they're comp that they're going to be destroyed by you saying um you know I went to this pub there was a sign up they gave me some money for complaining about it because then other people are going to complain you know retroactively possibly even even if they take the sign down. So you have to think hard about that and it might be for example that if you've already talked about it that you agree that you are able to tell people that you settled but you're not allowed to say how much for. That's very very common in court cases that you don't say what you got. Um or it might be that you could say this thing had happened to you but you agree not to use the company's name so that it doesn't come up in searches. You know you're in a negotiation here. Um don't don't hear no when they come back to you and don't feel that you have to take exactly what they say either. You can go back to them with a counter offer >> and and also try not to go back to them um in anger. Um, again, this is the time to talk to your most sensible friend or or the AI. Um, you know, think about this quite as cooly as you can. Um, is the best way to approach it.

[00:28:57]>> And don't think that you're some standard bearer for all of GC, Inc.

[00:29:01]either. Like, in some sense, you are you're doing something that's good for everybody else, but it's not a burden on you and you shouldn't feel like it is.

[00:29:08]Like it's strange when you're out about, you know, being active in this place. I know this happens to you, too. People come up to you and they apologize for not doing more. And I'm like, >> you know, I have all sorts of opinions that aren't this one. And I'm doing absolutely nothing about them because I have no time. It's completely acceptable for somebody not to take this case.

[00:29:26]There's no obligation on you if you think you're too busy, if you think it'll bring trouble to your door, you know, if you're in already in a big round with your kids over this. It's really your business whether you do this or not. And it's also you should think about your own best interests in terms of whether you would settle or not.

[00:29:40]You're not letting anybody else down deciding what's best for you in this situation.

[00:29:44]>> And and also, you know, if the business really did just make a mistake and now, you know, that they will learn from it, you know, it may be that, you know, having having settled with you will lead to them um updating their policies and their training and that it's job done.

[00:30:03]Another thing that there's no science on is the um how much you should ask. I mean there's the Vento bands, but uh you know, for example, if you're looking at a pub, is it part of a nationwide chain or is it a free house single, you know, single owner one pub business? Because if you ask for more than they can afford, they won't settle because they'd rather roll the dice in court in the hope that they don't have to pay you very much. But if you ask for a reasonable amount, you're much more likely to get a settlement. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:30]And it may be that uh you know that if you say the thing I want most is an apology and you fixing your policy that we have tended to find with those sort of public-f facing businesses like pubs and venues that it's it's an individual staff member, you know, somebody who themselves is a signed up trans rights activist in their private life who is basically freelancing and saying, you know, we don't accept people like you around. And in fact, the business owner, although by the way, they are entirely legally liable for this, >> they didn't even really know that this was going to happen.

[00:31:03]>> I mean, that person saying, "I'm really sorry, that shouldn't have happened.

[00:31:06]I've talked to that staff member. I'm going to train everybody. I didn't even know that sign was behind the bar. I'm going to take it down." That might be the most that you want. Really?

[00:31:15]>> Yes. And another thing that that reminds me of is um make sure you write to the right person. So, the first thing that you need to do before you write to them is work out um who is the who's the entity that you're bringing this claim against. And as you said, if it's a pub, it may be the chain rather than the individual pub or it may be um it's the it's the individual owner. Um you know, you just you need to work out who it is um that's running the establishment that you can bring a claim against. And um if you if you think it's more than one um try them both. Uh but but do your research to work to understand whose um whose business it is. So friends of ours have had everything from the next letter that they get back is is from a lawyer who is acting for the service provider who obviously knows what's what and is there to just try to settle with the least trouble and the least cost to their client. And that's actually a really good situation to be in because that person is not angry or upset.

[00:32:18]They're just doing their job. And that did lead to a a very suitable financial settlement and there was some negotiation there on whether to name the company, whether to talk about what had happened um what could be said on social media. And at the other end of the spectrum, we have seen um a sole proprietor who clearly doesn't understand the law at all but thinks they do. I don't know whe they're getting help from AI maybe. um who has just given like totally inappropriate responses, you know, making counter claims. You've talked about this and that's done my business harm and that's as bad as me discriminating against you and I told you it was just an individual staff member not understanding that they're liable for that. Um and that and in that case and in that sort of case like you can drop it. There's nothing meaning that you have to go to court.

[00:33:03]You've committed yourself to nothing to to this point. But if you do, let's talk about that process.

[00:33:09]>> Yeah, >> I'll just say something about the costs first. Um the amount that you have to pay, you can do it all online. It's there's a link in our guide. Uh the cost depends on how much you're claiming and it starts at £35 and it goes up to several hundred if you're trying to claim up to the 10,000 limit. That is the most you can use the small claims procedure for. So what do you what do you do then? You you're going to go to court.

[00:33:30]>> Um well, no, you're going to issue the claim. So you're not sorry you're not necessarily going to go to court, but you're going to issue the claim. So, you go um you you get all of your evidence and your paperwork together and you go on to the um website for court claims and you um uh upload it, you know, you just fill in the form um use the guidance that's there, pay the um uh fee and it gets sent to um the people that you're um bringing the claim against.

[00:34:02]You can also at the same >> you don't have to do it yourself. That's done automatically. You can also um email them and say, you know, because you've already warned them, I you know, I I'm going to bring this claim if I don't get a um uh reason, you know, acceptable remedy within 14 days. And then they've responded to you and you've kind of reached the end of your negotiations and so you've already warned them, I'm going to bring the claim. They may think you're not going to. You bring the claim, you go back to them in email and say, I've brought the claim. they may then reopen negotiations or open negotiations at that point because they think, "Oh, right, she's serious." Um, so, so then you kind of go back and the whole negotiation process can can happen again. Um, there's also an option that they may ask, um, that you go to mediation and there's a whole series of um, options for using mediation to try, you know, the whole system is set up to try and stop people getting to court. is trying to uh lead people and service providers to come to a um solution that's acceptable for for all of them without getting to court.

[00:35:12]And so you need to go through each of those stages and hopefully you will get to a solution that means you don't have to go to court. Uh but if you don't um you can go to court on this and you don't need a lawyer. Uh they are small claims. Um the the important thing about small claims is um it's not costs jurisdiction which means you are not likely to be liable for the costs of the other side and um unless you've acted unreasonably. So this is the thing that as Helen was saying in in the first place, make sure that you tell the truth, the whole truth. Don't lie, don't exaggerate. um try at every stage of the process to reach an agreement and then if you have to go to court you won't have to pay the costs on the other side.

[00:36:01]That's that's how this particular um bit of the legal process is set up.

[00:36:07]Whereas if you go to county court for a big discrimination claim, so for example um Allison Bailey took her vet to um county court for discriminate against her. It was a goods and services claim.

[00:36:21]She had lawyers, they had lawyers. Um, she won, she got compensation. I think they would have paid for her legal costs, but if she'd lost, she would have had to pay for the for the vets's legal costs, and that would have been huge. Um so so this this um system is designed for much smaller claims, much less on the line trying to keep people out of court, but if you do go to court, it's uh a reasonable and manageable process that you can um you can represent yourself in.

[00:36:55]>> So I think that's probably everything that we need to say except for read it.

[00:36:59]Um, any last thoughts, Maya? Because, you know, we do worry about putting these things out and encouraging people to maybe put themselves in the line of fire or bring trouble to their own door.

[00:37:11]Um, we're not lawyers and this is not we are not giving you legal advice here. We are doing what many many organizations like us do, which is putting out legally informed information that people can then use as a DIY guide themselves. So, what would you like people to take away um with that, you know, in mind?

[00:37:30]>> Um I think that this is just one of the ways that you can respond to this problem. Um you can complain without bringing a legal claim. You can um you can go to the press if if you want to do that. Um you can you can walk away. I mean, as you said, you you don't have to bring every single claim. Um, but this is one of the things that you can do. And we're putting this out the week after the EHRC guidance has come out and that strengthens your hand.

[00:38:06]That has there's a whole section in there about belief discrimination, um, which you can point to. And then there's obviously the sections about, uh, single sex services, which this is closely linked to. So all of that makes it um more likely that these kinds of claims will now settle in your favor. Um but you know, you don't have to be gung-ho about it. Yeah. And the thing I'd like to say is that this is the long haul.

[00:38:33]Like there has been disinformation on the other side and in particular legal disinformation. So lots of the people who discriminate now on the basis of gender critical belief or who have destroyed single sex services quite genuinely think that they are doing the right thing and the lawful thing. So when you complain they're not in a very good place to understand what you're complaining about. Um it may be that a you know a legally informed letter which they can then go and look up like you know our our sample letter quotes from the Equality Act the definitions of discrimination and harassment and so on and it also quotes from the relevant parts of the code that came out last week specifically those things. Well someone can go and look those up online and they can go oh that's not what I thought.

[00:39:15]>> And so you know in a way what you're doing here is the grassroots re-education. I mean almost almost um uh getting rid of the disinformation that's there already and dradicalization I'd almost call it. You're you can be part of a dradicalization program but dradicalization is not fast.

[00:39:33]>> Yeah, I think that's right. And and I mean we've been through this several times at Sex Matters where people have turned us down for services and we've pointed out the law to them and they've gone away, thought about it for a few days and come back and said, "Oh, okay.

[00:39:46]We we'll do business with you." and we've done business with them quite happily. Um so you know that's the ideal situation is that the the re-education leads to um them stopping discriminating.

[00:40:00]>> Okay, great. Uh so we'll put the link to the um blog post that we've written about this just to give you an overview and that links through to the guidance itself. We'll put a link to that in the show notes for this podcast. Um, you know, even if you don't have a case to take, I think you might find it interesting to read and to think it through because this is so ubiquitous that it may happen to you or it may happen to a friend and now you've got something that you can look at to decide what to do >> and do tell us about them. I mean, we what we can't do is um, you know, we can't provide legal advice. We can't provide intensive handholding for lots and lots of people bringing these cases, which is why we've tried to write down the guidance. Um, but you know, tell us if it's worked, tell us if it hasn't worked. Um, you know, do do tell us about them. Um, because we can use that experience to help other people. We may be able to point you at specific things.

[00:40:55]Um, the the more that we build kind of collective knowledge about how this works, the easier and cheaper it will be for people to get justice and the more the incentives will be on the service providers to just follow the law. And we can feed it back as well when we're talking to regulators and to government.

[00:41:13]We can say that we've done this and we've heard from people and you know what what is happening on the ground is widespread discrimination and that bas and and then using your feedback we'll know what that's based on. We think it's based on enormous ignorance and disinformation that's been spread by the trans lobby. But we need to know that.

[00:41:30]>> Which reminds me of one thing we forgot to say. If you bring a goods and services claim, if you get to the point of bringing your goods and services claim to court, you have to tell the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I mean, police aren't going to come knocking on your door if you don't, but it it says in the law that you have to tell them. And the reason you have to tell them is because it's their job to know that this kind of thing is happening. Um, you don't have to tell them about an employment tribunal, but on goods and services, you have to tell them. Um, and they may come in on your side. um you know they certainly need to know that there are lots of discrimination cases happening in a particular area. So so do tell them you can tell them before you bring a claim but certainly if you get to the point of bringing the legal claim then you'd need to tell the Equality and Human Rights Commission >> and if you tell us we will collect what we hear and we will make sure that they know it that uh you know that this is a big deal. Okay. Thanks Maya.