Reiner, D4vd, Duggar: Three Families, Three Devastating Cases

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:01]This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Bruski and Robin Green.

[00:00:08]>> Wake up San Francisco. I'm Danny Tanner.

[00:00:11]Welcome to the show today. Uh happy new week everybody. Uh Jake Reiner, uh we're going to be talking about the Riner situation here. First, your thoughts.

[00:00:21]We'd love for you to weigh in uh out there on the comment section. And Jake Riner wrote about waking up every morning and having to convince himself it wasn't a dream. He put out a new uh a piece this week. It's the first time he's spoken publicly on his Substack.

[00:00:36]The uh the article is just called Mom and Dad. He wrote about being robbed of his parents at his wedding of grandchildren they'll never hold.

[00:00:44]Meanwhile, reports say the brother accused of taking all of that from him is allegedly plotting a revenge tell all from his jail cell. Not to seek justice, not to take responsibility, but reportedly to settle scores with the very people who spent years trying to save him. So when a family pours everything into someone dangerous and loses everything because of it, at what point does the person left standing get to stop carrying the weight of someone else's destruction? That is what we are getting into in our first segment this morning. Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent chief of the counter intelligence behavioral analysis program. My co-host with us as always.

[00:01:26]>> Good morning.

[00:01:27]>> Happy Monday. What a busy weekend for everyone, too. Oh my gosh, with everything going on, >> with everything we're covering and then in between all that, you know, you know, the uh the assassination intemp, you know, Tony and I are going back and forth watching more of our cult specials on TV, >> too.

[00:01:46]It all comes up to I mean, everything just comes down to really unhealthy minds. That that's, you know, that that's where we end up with everybody.

[00:01:52]Well, at the at the same time though, it helps you appreciate what you do have and and you know, every time you watch and and and absorb and digest what's going on in the world around you, it gives you context to see what is healthy, what's unhealthy, so you know what to attach yourself with, who to interact with, and know what to tolerate or not tolerate in your life. I think that's one of the greatest things about doing what we do is we give some recognition for everyone tuning in to what what's right, what's not right when it comes to who should who should we have in our lives and what we should do about it.

[00:02:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. 1,000%.

[00:02:28]>> We're taking your questions on on Substack, YouTube, Facebook, wherever you're watching us live. Uh we also have several of your questions that you've dropped on our videos over the uh the last week or two. We're going to try and get to a handful of those here uh as we work through this uh live today, but please do uh please do drop them. All right, let's just start with this one.

[00:02:48]The first one, um it's something I think a lot of people have thought about when they've they've looked at this case. It says, uh I keep thinking about that smirk at the arraignment. Speaking about Nick Reiner when he was in court, uh this is at you, Robin. You study people for a living. uh what does a guy who reportedly can't process why he's in jail but still wants to write a revenge book actually look like from a behavioral standpoint because those two things don't go together in my head Danielle on Instagram asks that question >> uh I keep things as simple as possible in all this I'm not the lawyer I'm not I'm not licensed psychotherapist like our great Siobhan is so I just break it down this that is one broken brain >> it it's it really comes down to that It is a sick mfer. It really is. And there's no I don't think there's any fix in it. And I know this comes up with one of the questions later.

[00:03:41]>> Medications that they keep kept trying with him or continue to try with him are band-aids for the underlying broken brain. It is an unfixable brain in that head. And so I I I just think it comes down to that. There is no reasoning with it. There's no there's no having it shift to I mean we haven't seen it yet.

[00:03:59]Why would we see a shift in his behavior pattern? remember past is prologue with a lot of people and even though we all learn and we're not the same people today as we were yesterday you can kind of see those arcs those trajectories that's why I always go to behavior arcs and life arcs of people because people are not going to have these major shifts out of that unless there's some event that they have this aha epiphany and even with an aha epiphany that rudder starts shifting slightly it's not like today I'm a horrible human being that is a wound collecting victimizing person with a broken brain to tomorrow I have this epiphany. And in other words, it's not a a a Scrooge moment from Christmas Carol where he has three dreams in the middle of the night and wakes up fixed in the morning. Doesn't happen.

[00:04:42]>> Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen for many people ever.

[00:04:46]>> It needs to though, doesn't it?

[00:04:47]>> Yeah. Wouldn't that be great if like that that story actually worked out and people learn from their horrible mistakes of being massive narcissists their whole life and suddenly they wake up one morning and like, "Ah, >> I'm better."

[00:04:58]>> It's a fascinating thing, too. So we can look at patterns behavior across society, across everything to really understand what we can reasonably expect in every situation. Does anyone watching, listening, tuning in, does anyone ever know someone in their life that went from zero to 100? Went from completely broken to the next day they woke up full accountability and fixed.

[00:05:22]The closest you'll come is to like a drug addict, alcoholic, or something like that that has their rock bottom.

[00:05:29]>> And they make the decision that they are broken and they're going to save their own lives by going to meetings, getting clean, going to detox. And then the rudder shifts and they stop consuming the horrible things that are destroying them. And they start the first step on their journey to come out of it. And it doesn't go from zero to oh, I get it. It goes from zero to the first step, the second step, and it's days, weeks, months, and years to crawl yourself up out of that mess you created yourself into being a functioning, more healthy human being that can have a reasonable expectation of a great relationship with another human being. But for Nick Reiner, ain't happening. I mean, how many times has he hit rock bottom only to be saved and coddled by others? Well, I guess maybe that is the question I think that some people have is is has he ever really truly hit rock bottom? I mean, there are stories where he uh was was homeless. He's talked about it, but but they aren't like there are not stretches of homelessness I think that a lot of people who are homeless uh experience. Like he always kind of had a safety net to kind of go back on. He it's like homeless light.

[00:06:40]tried it out for a little bit, was like, "This is a bit much for me." And then wandered back to the the shelter of his parents and and those who who could essentially keep him from ever hitting rock bottom and drugs were involved in in in much of Nick Reiner's existence.

[00:06:56]What's scariest to me about people like Nick Reiner and people not like Nick Reiner but still have the same sort of pathology and all that is the folks with the drug addiction and things of that nature. Sometimes, like you were saying, if if they can get themselves cleaned up, if they can they can get on a good path, there there can be some paths to to to redemption.

[00:07:21]>> What's more scary, the folks where drugs are not involved at all and this is just how they are like like cuz you like you remove some of that and the the weight that the drugs are having on the brain and like suddenly things can clear up a bit. When it's like this is just your normal mode of thinking all the time, that's even scarier. Um, and I feel like like obviously drugs are a big part of the story with Nick Reiner, but I I think even you take the drugs out of the equation with Nick Riner because there were moments of sobriety here and he was still a very broken person and and still very much someone who didn't seem to ever truly take the accountability uh for his actions. Um, >> and right now >> Yeah, even right now he's in isolation, eating crappy food in jail, no drugs involved anymore. True. and and plotting >> and he's still the victim in his own mind. No account. I mean, you don't what other bottom can you hit except death, you know? I think he's addicted to bouncing on the bottom. He just loves dwelling there. He loves I mean, think about this. Besides that broken brain, >> which I think is unfixable because people they paid a lot of money to try to fix it. Ain't fixed yet.

[00:08:28]>> Mhm.

[00:08:29]>> Why else continue? He's addicted to to being the victim. He loves it. He's thriving in it. Otherwise, why would you continue it unless you're incapable of moving out of it because your brain is so chemical imbalances, malf formations, whatever it is up there that you know, people like Siobhan love to diagnose and can diagnose much more effectively. But again, if they could diagnose it so well, they would have fixed it or or made attempts to fix it and it just hasn't worked. Who knows? But it is working.

[00:08:53]>> I mean, I mean, recognizing the problem doesn't mean you're fixing the problem.

[00:08:56]You know, you can go, "Ah, there's a giant hole in the side of the Titanic and it's sinking." Well, we I mean, yes.

[00:09:03]Well, if we got it into dry dock, we could cover that up with new metal and make it float. It's already sinking.

[00:09:09]It's in the middle of the ocean. Just knowing that that that is what would be the fix doesn't mean you can implement it. Um, and I think that's very true with some people and including Nick Reiner. Another question we have here, Jake said he'd trade, this is Jake Riner, Nick's brother, uh, said he'd trade every Dodger game in every Broadway show just to talk to his parents. uh one more hour in that uh and I highly recommend reading it on Substack. I I restacked his post um so you can find it on ours um just the link is in the description for Substack. It's a really I mean heartfelt piece about his parents. So he's talking about all those memories and everything that he shared with him. How do you even begin to grieve people you lost to violence when the person who allegedly took them is your own brother and he's still finding ways to hurt you from inside the cell? That's the question from Rachel on Facebook.

[00:10:07]>> You know, I don't know. I think everyone does it differently to me. I mean, and I've seen this in other cases and I think I would do it in my own life. You just have to cut him off. I mean, he's not >> That's not your brother.

[00:10:20]That's that's something inhuman in there. It's just there's just I and I don't know how it looks like he was this way a very long time.

[00:10:28]>> But that's not your brother. That's not a human being. That's someone that's something that is a toxic cancer in your life and you just have to treat it like that. You've got to cut it out. You know, some people and we see this with the cults. We saw it with Amy Duggar um when we interviewed her and other family members.

[00:10:46]We want to give a lot of grace to family but I always ask myself why you know I mean seriously you can really see some really unhealthy toxic things and if you keep associating with it again it's not there's a choice it's not right or wrong or better or worse I can just tell you the the impact if you keep associating with it or keep allowing it to infect your brain and I say infect your brain because that's exactly what it's taking up that gray matter it's taking up bandwidth it's taking up space you know if you just regard it as a as a broken tool that is no longer servicing me. You got to cut it out. Because I tell you what, he's not viewing him as his brother. He's not viewing him as anything but a tool that he can try to manipulate for his own gain, for his own pleasure. Because the only pleasure Nick Reiner is getting, again, pure conjecture at this point, is inflicting, continuing to inflict pain and discomfort on others. Cuz what has he done his entire life? Inflict pain and discomfort on others. He seems to enjoy it, otherwise he wouldn't do it anymore.

[00:11:43]Why does he get it? broken brain, whatever. But it's we we allow people to infect us when we accept them still in our lives. Just cut that crap out, man.

[00:11:54]And I'm sorry for them hugely. And I know it's tough for family members, people to do that, but if you keep accepting unhealthy in your life, it's going to be painful. Unless you have the ability to at least sit back and as I say multiple times a day, watch a show.

[00:12:09]I can be very close to people, close proximity. I can listen to words. I can have great conversations, but because I assess who they are, what they stand for, and all these myriad of things, their words don't have impact on me because that's their thoughts, their beliefs, their their position in life, and it'll just roll right over me like water. No. But now, if someone I do feel close to, I mean, like you, Tony, um Todd, our crew here, my wife, my family, my kids, what they say, what their opinion matters very deeply to me. I cannot actually take an action in my life without one of the these close people in my life being part of it.

[00:12:49]>> And if you're part of my very tight circle, it's tight. And there's a huge bar of good healthy relationships that you have to meet to be there. But other than that, I enjoy the show. People got great words, some have horrible words. I take it all in, assess it, and then it rolls right over like water. Hard to do.

[00:13:05]Takes a lot of reps. But in order to preserve yourself because you can't be there for others if you allow people like that to infect your life.

[00:13:12]>> Do you think that No, and this is me. Uh the we're in a interesting place right now uh in in in in the you know span of human history. Uh the whole no contact thing with your family had wasn't even I mean just 20 30 years ago. It was like what? Oh my god. Who would do that? And and if you go further back, you can kind of understand why people weren't doing that. It was out of necessity. It was more so like survival. It didn't matter if you had some narcissistic [ __ ] person in your family. If you needed them to survive, you needed them survive. And you had to figure out a way to to make everybody all the cogs in the wheel work together, even if some weren't. We're not in a world like that anymore. We don't need all the cogs in this wheel to function, to survive. If you have a family member that's just a bad apple or whatever you want to call them, flatout evil, you don't need them.

[00:14:06]You don't have to keep absorbing them.

[00:14:08]But I don't know that we've mentally caught up to that reality yet. I feel like we're getting there. I I think it's interesting. Oprah just did a piece on this uh a multi- piece on this about families going no contact and what that means and why people are doing that because there's a huge percentage of people that are doing it far more than ever have in the past with family members that have been toxic. people that have have decided to stop accepting unhealthy.

[00:14:35]>> Yeah.

[00:14:35]>> Um that is is this is this just something do do you think we're going to get better at this as time goes on?

[00:14:41]because it's not required and we're not I think a lot of people stay by unhealthy out of shame and and and by out of guilt but but but but guilt and shame that are I think very much misplaced that that aren't necessarily accurate to the situation but because we're told we should feel guilty or shameful for for telling an unhealthy family member to go away and go over there. I I I feel like that dynamic is shifting.

[00:15:08]>> I do too and I'm very excited about it.

[00:15:10]Yeah, >> we are genetically and biologically coded for group tribal mentality. It's part, like you said, it's part of our survival. Ancient tribal man, if you didn't belong to the closeness society, closenit group, close-knit family, the chances of you being able to procreate and pass on your genetic coding was slim to none.

[00:15:27]>> So, we're coded to to want to unconditionally accept and believe in and be around that close family structure. But to your point, because society is so evolved with community, with government, with businesses, with organizations, the mechanisms for survival are in place outside of family.

[00:15:48]Now, family is a great thing to have if it's healthy. What I really like about this is that, and Amy Duggar talked about it when we chatted with her, it's breaking the toxic cycle. It's it's breaking the cycle internally of the trauma response family that's constantly because I I don't know the percentage very high. I think it's 85 to 95% of um child uh s abusers come from a a place where they were introduced to it at a young age either by a family member or someone close to that family. So that's where you break the trauma cycle. When you break that trauma cycle with healthy relationships, you have to distance yourself from that original family. And then what are you doing? you're aligning with new family. You're aligning with a new spouse, with a healthier spouse. And so then you can recollect a family and then family can be close again because you broke the trauma cycle. So I think it's taking families that were broken for generational trauma. Breaking it because it takes courage, it takes strength and takes a lot of effort and bravery to to have the courage to break that trauma cycle, that generational trauma cycle, and then start a new cycle with a new family. And then we can actually go back to those so those great wonderful family values what allow us to do what? Feel safe, feel seen, feel heard, and be valued by others. But when you're in that toxic generational cycle, it doesn't happen. And I think that's what people are starting to do. they're starting to have the courage because, you know, as as detrimental as social media can be and and and all this online stuff we have, at the same time, it's able to get messages out like the the people like the Jill Duggars and the Amy Duggar Kings that were escape able to escape the trauma cycles and you know, and people that are able to escape escape FDLS and even in this situ situation, brothers that are able to break from toxic other brothers that have destroyed families that have murdered their parents, you know, break that cycle, get out, move on and I think that's what's going to be hopefully a resurgence using what could be negative um and use it for a positive.

[00:17:51]>> I agree. I think that that is uh it's a very healthy way of of looking at things in a way that's that essentially has been shunned I think in society for a long time. You don't think that way that you don't even entertain this idea when in reality >> that's that's the way to to freedom if you want. Yeah. Just don't do crazy.

[00:18:12]>> Just don't do crazy. Make that your policy in life. Don't do crazy. Keep them out. And and and don't be afraid to say no. I'm done. I mean, it feels like a lot of life almost I don't know in in some ways of looking at it some generations. It's almost like how long have you known these people? It's it's life is not a race and it's not a uh a contest of how long have you had certain people in your life because at the end of the day there's no prize for having toxic people in your life until you're dead. um you're going to be much more happier by the time death comes if you had exchanged some of those toxic people for healthy people. There's only so much bandwidth you have to give and take out there. Why not spend it with healthy people, not the unhealthy?

[00:18:54]>> So, I'm going to give everyone and I I've read I can't remember what exact book I read this. I I read so many books, but here is exactly the win for life. If you want to, everyone is pursuing a successful life, a happy life. And it's easy to get caught up in the materialism of the world and have someone else define for you what success is with monetary gain, prestige, title, accolades, all the things that you didn't come into the world with and you're not leaving with.

[00:19:24]>> So, how do you you cannot measure success by those things. There's only really one thing, one thing alone I believe you can measure success in and that is how you're remembered the type of person you are. Do you want to be remembered as this great professional or you want to remembered as someone that couldn't that lit up a room when you came around that corner is always there for someone else. And most importantly, the greatest gift you can give yourself and give others. The only thing you'll leave is what you taught others about how to treat others, how to be present for them, how to be kind, how to have grace, how to do all these things that help others have healthy, strong relationships. That is what success is.

[00:20:01]That's what the life win is. What are you going to do to inspire other people to live a healthier life so they can pass it on generationally to the people in their lives? That is what's going to move that's what's going to move our species forward beyond what it is now with constantly this this this this this.

[00:20:19]>> And why is it this this this this?

[00:20:20]Because we are constantly caught up in these toxic things. It doesn't matter.

[00:20:24]You can't take any of this crap with you. So focus on those relationships. Be that beacon that people want to gravitate to and then to pass on those skills to those that matter in your life and those what those new family structures form around. There I'm done my soap box for the day. Right. So, if you don't want more of this, this this this, get more of that, that that that that by this, this, this, this, this book right here. You like that transition right there? Wasn't that fun?

[00:20:48]>> It's not all about me.

[00:20:50]>> Exactly. It's Robin's latest book, and it's available wherever books are sold.

[00:20:53]Go and check that out. Uh, let's move over to uh another uh topic here, another case. The autopsy is out. The charges are filed. And what came out of that courtroom on the one-year anniversary of the last day of Celeste Rivas? Hernandez was seen alive. It's worse than most people were prepared for. Prosecutors say they've got 40 terabytes of evidence, a wire tap nobody knew about. Three separate grand juries uh and exploitation material found directly on his phone. Uh his defense team response, speed it up. STEP ON THE GAS. Show us everything. And the question that won't leave me alone, uh, the one that I I think you might be sitting with too, is what were all the adults doing for 12 months between when this child vanished and when someone finally smelled something wrong in a toward? Your questions uh, on Substack, on YouTube, drop them. We're going to try and get through them as we uh, we look at the uh, the David uh, case. Let's start here. Uh Robin, uh his lawyers are demanding a faster hearing strategy.

[00:21:58]Some people wave the right to uh speedy.

[00:22:00]Some are like, "Let's step on the gas for different reasons." 40 terabytes. Uh they haven't apparently seen yet. Uh what do they know that we don't that they're wanting this to move really fast?

[00:22:13]>> You know, this is such a Bob question.

[00:22:15]>> It is. I mean, it is, but I'm curious to get your conjecture on it.

[00:22:20]>> Yeah. So there's a lot of I looked up there's a lot of legal reasons for this that it's a it's definitely unprecedented. Typically they don't do this fast. They don't want to move this fast. But I there's one theory that I I kind of have in my mind. Again, you place yourself in that situation. And so I'm going to answer it from a behavioral standpoint, not from a a Bob Ma uh legal stand or our good friend Eric on the prosecution side as well.

[00:22:46]I think there's so much uh oh that have just happened with the release of the autopsy result and the terabytes and what we're seeing for um child's uh s things on his cell phone and things like that. The faster they move the less that's known in the media. I think that's really about trying to negate or at least lessen the huge negative impact or conjecture and all these things that are coming out. So let's move fast before people see even more. I really think that's part of it because there is with that much think about that terabytes of information and none of it is any good. None of it's going to be to his benefit. So if you want to not give people time to digest that much data, let's quickly move so you don't get to see that much data and let's try to get this thing moving. That's what I'm thinking.

[00:23:35]>> Yeah. I mean again, we don't not diagnosing him innocent till proven guilty in our opinion. Blah blah blah.

[00:23:41]Allegedly put that in front of everything. Um the narcissists don't like their masks slipping and and if David is a narcissist, which it kind of appears that he may be. He seems to have some of the traits. Um the last thing they they want is exposure and and I mean this is why we've seen so many cases where we get right up to trial and they're professing their innocence right up into and then suddenly it's like, "Oh, guess what? It's showtime. Here comes the spotlight. It's about to shift on to you. I did it. shut the show shut the show down aka Rex Herman >> Rex Herman Brian Cobberger I mean we see it in a lot of cases like that >> control control >> 1000% and if and if that's and and they will exercise any any monochrome of control that they can get cuz that's big to them that's all they have left so it's going to be a big deal and they're going to go on at full force so I I'm thinking you're right I think that's probably some level of this the less that can just linger out there into the ether the better but at at the end of the day here. I mean, sorry, this shit's going to linger out there forever. This is part of the record.

[00:24:47]>> And and I think as soon as I think part of the strategy, too, again, we're going to make our list for Bob um tomorrow.

[00:24:52]>> Yeah.

[00:24:53]>> I think part of the strategy here could also be for the defense to get all the the information for discovery as fast as they can before the media gets it so they can make their determination as fast as possible and put a plea to plead on deal together. I think, you know, I know Bob said it last week and the week before as well. I'm I'm leaning on with this much information, with this many bad things going on, I I I can't imagine it going to trial. I mean and and again but you never know on these things but >> but there's so much information it looks like and I think in order for to keep control of the narrative to actually have any potential for a a plea deal over any of any site. I I think that's why I think they just want to move to that as fast as possible so they can actually have a good choice about how to do it.

[00:25:42]>> Yeah. I mean, I feel like where we're going to go here is, and this is just my non-legal expertise, my legal expertise comes from talking to Bob a lot, >> right? I know we're channeling earlier, Bob.

[00:25:53]>> Yeah. uh you know, so that's what that my gut on it is. Uh we're looking at at a situation here uh where death could possibly be on the table, which and and I think that might be the only that's the only, you know, piece that that he has on the board to play with anymore is okay, plead out and we're not going to try you for the death penalty and you're going to be gone forever, but at least you won't die.

[00:26:21]>> That's that's the route I'm going to.

[00:26:22]Um, that's why you and I are aligned.

[00:26:25]We'll assault Bob with it tomorrow.

[00:26:26]>> Okay.

[00:26:27]>> Question for you guys. I was thinking about that.

[00:26:29]>> Yeah. Todd, >> will he, you know, it seems like there's some dark stuff in this kid's mind, right?

[00:26:34]>> Yeah.

[00:26:34]>> Would he enjoy the death penalty?

[00:26:37]>> Oh god.

[00:26:40]>> Like like the process like like being on death row like being like being like going for the ride essentially >> because that's a long stretch, right?

[00:26:49]That's a long stretch of time.

[00:26:51]look like his music videos.

[00:26:53]Exactly. Yeah. It's a really interesting question. Um >> it's really interesting because I mean, you know, he's going to be creating art around all these things because he's all about the dark imagery, so he's going to be using something with it. Um I really I'd be really curious about uh and again now we'll shift on to Siobhan on uh on Wednesday. I wonder about because people like this have a lot of suicidal idealization a lot of times too. I'd say if he had a suicidal idealization, um, he might be willing to go down that route. But if he >> but if he sees himself as the martyed artist behind bars, uh, I think it also be interesting too is is there Son of Sam law where he's being convicted because he could really profit handsomely behind. I mean, think about the following he has. And >> I think there is I mean, it's California. I mean, there's there is some whether it's called Son of Sam there, I don't know, but there's something in place, >> right? So he can't profit from u from he can't take the proceeds from anything does. So I think all those things are what the defense is going to weigh in on that. But really good insight in question Todd.

[00:27:59]>> Yeah. I mean I mean we kind of thought that way about Cobberger a little bit too. Like he's is he enjoying the ride here. Is this part of what he wanted?

[00:28:06]But he didn't go for the whole trial.

[00:28:08]That would be part of the ride. I would think if you if you did this you'd want to go on. But I don't know. I mean they they can kind of pick and choose where they want to use their fast pass if you will. and and and that'll definitely play in, you know, so if he wants to go full trial knowing he's going to get convicted anyway, again, it's I always just keep coming back to Taylor Swift using her real life for all their song lyrics, you know, and he's doing the same thing. I mean, he's using his real life, his real horrendously dark evil life for his art. And so being going through the trial, so I I think if he wants to not share with the world the things he did and things he did to others, um he would control it and plea out, but if he's proud of it, if he's thinks it's part of his narrative of how he's living his life, he wants his exposed. So I think I think the plea if he pleads or not will be really telling on all that.

[00:28:58]>> I think this is an interesting question here and I want to I want to give a quick answer before I toss it to you after I read it. Um they say this is uh from Steph uh via something I don't uh where is it? Uh this is from email. Uh they said financial gain as a special circumstances. They're saying he allegedly ended a child's life to protect a music career. This is the line that gets me. How does a person get that far gone? And I think a lot of people are wondering that how do you how are you that far gone? How do you get that far gone?

[00:29:32]I it's hard to get that far gone if you were never there to begin with.

[00:29:37]>> And and I think that that's that's something that we forget especially with some of these cases where they're this young. I mean I know he's like what 21 now or something this I like 19 is earlier. So he was still a damn kid. He wasn't he wasn't there. You can't get gone if you were never there. If you've just developed into this and and and you've had an ecosystem that has allowed you to become this, you were never gone.

[00:30:04]You're just functioning as you've been essentially bred, as you've been raised, as you've been uh conditioned, if you will, by your thinking, by your surroundings, you know, by by a lot of different things. I don't know that some of these people were ever there to get gone. I don't know your thoughts.

[00:30:21]>> Yeah, I don't think he was ever there either. So, so think about, so let's do our our thought experiment right here.

[00:30:27]So, here's someone that had a lot of early success before the prefrontal cortex fully formed before the age of 24, which means we're highly emotionally impulsive. We're not really clear thinkers on things. And he had zero guard rails. Even though he comes from apparently a religious family, he didn't appear to have any guardrails whatsoever about what he could or couldn't do. He had all the wealth he needed to do to do whatever he wanted to do. He attracted more nutters around him all before their prefrontal cortexes and lobes are fully formed. So they're all con completely batshit crazy >> and no guardrails. And then you have proclivity for doing horrendous things to underage people.

[00:31:09]>> Yeah. It was never there that I don't think there was a semblance of healthy thoughts that was in his life to that point before we saw the dis or started hearing some of the discovery stuff.

[00:31:20]Again, I was I you know admittedly I was on the camp. This human being couldn't possibly have done anything horrendous.

[00:31:26]It must have been a mistake, a cover up.

[00:31:28]Again, prefrontal cortex not fully formed. You have a panic escalation to try to do something because you mistaken whether it was drug overdose or doing stupid partying, whatever it was, and she died accidentally. Nope. I don't think that I I'm all on board with just broken from the beginning. No guard rails and bad crap really happened.

[00:31:48]There is uh a question here in the comments I wanted to go back to. Um it's about Celeste's parents. Uh >> I just did even more research on them too. A lot of people knew about David and Celeste's family as future.

[00:32:04]>> Yeah, this is this is one and I'm not I'm not going down the road that they were were paid or anything like that, but says, "Yeah, so strange with Celeste's parents. She knew uh where she was." That's we don't know for sure, but they they had listed her as missing, but it does seem a lot of people knew where the hell she was. She wasn't like missing in like the sense of she's on the side of a milk carton. Oh my gosh, where did she go? Like, she was coming and going from the family dynamics here pretty much up towards the end. Right.

[00:32:31]>> Um maybe not in a trunk or a Tesla. They they let their little girl essentially live with a grown man. Why didn't they call the cops getting money? Maybe that's the question. And I'm not saying that. I'm not insinuating that. I think it's a fair question to ask. I think all that needs to be looked into. And I hope they already have. But yeah, I'm not I'm not in the camp here of just giving Celeste parents a free pass here either.

[00:32:54]I know they're grieving. I know this is horrendous. I cannot imagine going through it. But there is responsibility to be had when you're a parent of a 13-year-old girl. She's not an adult.

[00:33:06]And sometimes you have to be a parent. I don't give a flying [ __ ] how much you're working, how much you have to do this, how much you have to do that. Your number one priority is your child. And clearly by seeing the way the dynamics of this family worked, that child was not the number one priority in my opinion. Your thoughts?

[00:33:24]>> I agree. At the same time, I'm I'm this part confuses me, believe it or not. Um, I mean, I got, you know, I keep all my Well, you can't see it. I keep all my research and I literally before we came on, I researched her parents again, what they did, what they didn't do.

[00:33:39]>> I see the comments right here. The PI is evidence that her family knew where she was. Okay, maybe >> there's so much that you and I wouldn't do, but >> yeah, >> but I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna pull the Bob Ma on this one where But we don't know them.

[00:33:53]>> We don't. And so I I I don't want to cast shade if they did do all what I've read. I mean, if they're in it says here that they were in contact with police a lot trying to find her, but at the same time, to everyone else's point, everyone else seemed to know where she was.

[00:34:08]>> She's showing up on security camera footage. She's showing up on video. She Yeah. I mean, it's not again, she's not milk carton missing. I mean, >> I don't I don't get it. I That's what I mean. I don't get it. I just So, I what I Here's what I would expect. I would expect if they didn't give a rat's ass that there'd be one police one police report and not another. But we have multiples.

[00:34:29]>> Mhm.

[00:34:30]>> But not multiples with tons of followup.

[00:34:32]It looks like I mean just like see what I mean. It's just and then and I >> I think they gave a rat's ass to a certain extent.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah. Not so I guess it's you know it's it's kind of like it's kind of like being on a spectrum. I I think you know you have you and me and all our followers obviously getting a rat's ass which is way up here. And then you have their family which wasn't down at zero but maybe like right around three on a scale of one to 10. I don't know >> the the other area of this that I I don't have the answer to that I think would tell us a lot about it is uh and I'm just going to be very blunt about it. She was a missing brown girl. And we know how that works into it in a lot of cases >> where if if she's a missing white blonde girl who well there you go you're, you know, headline story for Ashley Banfield, but uh on something like this, and I'm not casting dispersions on Ashley Banfield. I'm just saying that's, you know, how that sort of [ __ ] works uh in terms of where attention seems to go and and even deeper what people click on. Um people always ask, "Why do they only cover this? Why do they only cover that?" Because guess what? the public's interest.

[00:35:38]I if we put out two different videos tomorrowally totally >> one was about this one was about that.

[00:35:43]And I'm going to say I really hope this one over here that's much worse about the little brown girl gets a lot more attention. Guess what's going to get more attention? Not that one. And that's not me. That's not you. That's society.

[00:35:55]That's the world doing what they do, making bad choices and not prioritizing every human as being on the same playing field. And that's shitty, but it is it is the world we live in. But I do wonder how much of that played into this in terms of the police response, the police investigation before you got the rest of the world with talking about this, the podcasting, the the news coverage of all of that. Uh when she was missing for all of that time before this murder took place, we didn't hear about it. We didn't really know this little girl was missing or that there was a connection to this this star. None of that was a story. I'm I'm kind of thinking it might have been if there was a little blonde white girl that had been hanging out with the music artist and then suddenly she's missing. That probably would have been a story. Um but for whatever reason it wasn't. And I I question and I again I don't know the answer to this, but I do wonder what the response was from authorities of like, ah, she's just a runaway and it was just being handled like they do the other hundreds of thousands of runaway cases of, well, we hope she shows back up. Good luck. So, I definitely think that was part of it.

[00:37:06]We've seen it in too many cases for it to not be part of it. But I think it's I think it's one of a couple data points probably that led to this being the way it was. So, you have that as a as a data point. Then I think also when you have private investigators or when you have people knowing where she is and when whether the family knew directly or a one degree separation told the family well she's hanging out with this guy David who's this music guy he's got a lot of money and if you got a a chaotic life at home and you're dealing with a lot of chaos and trauma and you know that one of your kids is not here but she seems I hear from the grapevine she's fine you can rationalize not doing more about Right? Again, pure conjecture, pure pure pure hypothesis.

[00:37:51]>> But when you put all these things together, cops aren't paying attention to it because it's it's it is what it is. Then you have no pressing from the parents because and also we don't know what the cops knew about where she was or not because they could have said the same thing. They said, "Well, if she's over here, we cuz remember everyone's always working with bandwidth. So, here you have thousands of missing kids claimed, thousands. And you happen to know that the ones, the majority of the ones that are going missing, they're about to be trafficked. And you have one that's reported missing, but we know she's over here with this dude. Where with limited bandwidth as as a law enforcement professional, where are you going to focus?

[00:38:32]>> Where's the family going to? See what I mean? So, it's they they I believe that probably too many people thought she was safe where she was when she actually wasn't.

[00:38:42]>> It's a lot of looking back and could have, should have, would have. It feels like% in this case. Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and uh and YouTube. I don't know. I I'm I I'm willing to hear anything in this case about how all of these things worked. I I I do not know the answers to these questions, but I think they need to be asked uh about the responsibility and what roles people were playing at what time in Celeste's life or what they were not playing a role in where they should have been. These are fair questions.

[00:39:11]>> And I'm still more on his parents.

[00:39:15]>> Well, every damn one of them. Every damn one of them.

[00:39:18]>> Because they're all underage.

[00:39:19]>> Yeah. Well, they were Yeah. I mean, David was n at a time he was. Yes. Um >> I know. And I know legally we got that whole 18-year-old thing, but any anyone old under the age of 24 I think is an underage moral.

[00:39:31]>> I agree. I agree.

[00:39:32]>> Or potentially >> mentally to be there as a responsible parent. Yes.

[00:39:37]>> Um but again there's there's this is a bad recipe. The whole damn thing is a bad recipe. Young fame suddenly falling into money fall you know the sheltered the religiosity uh the situation of celeb. I mean there everything is a bat.

[00:39:53]the whole damn recipe is [ __ ] And when you mix all that together, you get something like this. Um, and and I think that's where we're at. Again, your thoughts uh your thoughts in the comments section on Substack uh and YouTube as we continue to work our way through it. Hey, here's another fun topic.

[00:40:11]>> Say it faciciously.

[00:40:12]>> Home to the Duggars.

[00:40:13]>> Oh my god. Um, the things nightmares are made out of. The Duggars. Um, a child allegedly hurt by someone who was supposed to be safe. uh carried it for years before she told anyone. And now we're talking here uh weeks after uh the arrest. The man who allegedly did this uh is back home out on bond living under restrictions. He can't possibly follow without someone watching and nobody watching. The family is fractured. Some are calling it evil. Some are calling it persecution. And the people closest to the victim are reportedly starting over with nothing. The legal system hasn't even gotten started yet. But the choices people are making right now, who they're standing with, what they're saying, and what they're not already telling us everything. You guys have had a lot of opinions about this, and there's a lot of very interesting reporting going on out there. This is like the soap opera from hell. Uh, and I try I mean, there's there's the news element of it, and then there's it gets into soap opera material, literally. And it's like I I I see a lot of it. This is going on around close to my ecosystem. So, it's I'm trying to like not dive too deep into the soap opera, but it's hard not to sometimes. And I know you guys are having a lot of questions, too. Uh, Joseph is home right now. He's bonded out. Bond conditions say no unsupervised contact with minors. Uh, he has four kids under eight. Uh, how does that work, Karen? Via Facebook. Well, he's not with their kids right now. The kids and they're not with mom either. the kids are in protective custody and the protective custody ain't family either, which I think to me that says a lot. Uh, a lot of times when kids go into protective custody, they're going to look for family members. They're going to look for, oh, would this be a good safe place to put them? That's not where they went. That's not where they went.

[00:42:01]And you if if my math is correct, there's there's 19 options as to where uh the or more as to where those kids could have went, but they went to somewhere else, somewhere within the system. Um what does that say to you uh about what's going on here with this case?

[00:42:18]>> I think there's a lot of leakage where law enforcement is taking a close look at everything going on here and so and child protective services is obviously seeing it as well. So, for some reason that they're seeing they don't trust anyone in that family to have these kids. So, that's a good sign for maybe they're inching their way towards justice. Maybe we'll see.

[00:42:38]>> Um, and and you know, it's a really shame is that we know that there are a few that escape that seem to us, especially since we interviewed Amy and we read Jill's book and Amy's close to Jill too, that >> because I don't like ch I don't like children in the system just because you haven't seen good cases there either. So you really wish and you know Na said on our show that she would be more than happy to pitch in. She's offered as well. So I again there's a lot of drama.

[00:43:04]There's a lot of like you said soap opera stuff going on. I like that that they're not still in the toxic system but at the same time though >> they can't be feeling too good. Those are four little babies that just are really hugely confused right now and probably scared too because they've been they've been they've been thrown into thinking one thing about the system they live in. And now because we saw this in all the specials we watched, whether it's FLDS or IBLP, that they are so indoctrinated that anything outside of that system that doesn't exactly operate the way, you know, Grandpa Jim Bob told them, it's evil. It's horrible. I'm falling outside the umbrella. So there's got to be a lot of fear in their hearts as well. I Yeah, I mean, I'm not pro let's throw them to the system either.

[00:43:46]If there's a good family member that can take care, that's usually your best option. Um, but I think it's interesting if this is in fact how it's all playing out. Again, conjecture, our opinion, in my opinion, allegedly to everything we're talking about here. Um, but it's it's it's very interesting that that seems to be the dynamic again, if that's accurate, as to where it's all playing out. Um, right now, I mean, it it seems to say uh quite a bit. Here's another one. It says he allegedly confessed on a call. apparently had no idea he was being recorded that twice uh basically.

[00:44:21]Um uh and then his lawyer turns around and they plead not guilty. Does that not guilty plea have any real shot or is it just about buying time? Good question for Bob. Um >> I I don't know where it leads. I mean I everybody it seems most people do plead not guilty initially and it usually ends up going to some sort of a plea deal of some sort um rather than just straight to guilty. Um it's it's another, you know, it's a situation where words don't mean what they mean in in some cases, especially in the legal system, you know, or um or it's just utterly delusional. Uh and and he believes under his way of thinking and reasoning in his mind that he's not he's not guilty of these crimes for whatever reason. He's been absolved of them by God or what. I don't know. I don't know what the hell is going on up there to say not guilty when you've allegedly already admitted to this other than this is just to run the clock down a bit while we work on the the deal over here on the side. It's really interesting. What popped in my mind as we started talking about this just now, Tony, is Jim Bob's letter to um Joe behind bars >> and it was very very pragmatic and very lawlike like he was very saying hey bad things are happen again he was he was diminishing the words and of the accusation everything but it's very much hey here's the law you're going to be going away for a long time most likely.

[00:45:47]So you can see that they're they're accepting of what the fate will be legally, but from everything we've seen, studied, and watched for this family for so long now, that doesn't seem to matter nearly as much them as their faith and their IBLP methodology with, hey, we're all going to do bad things. We're not going to stir up the brethren. All you have to do to be redeemed is to admit your sin. You'll be redeemed because that's the most important thing. And now you can have a ministry.

[00:46:19]>> Mhm.

[00:46:19]>> And you know what? Ministry is more important because that's the way you get into heaven. The only way you get into heaven is to be redeemed, have a ministry, and have lots of kids. This legal stuff doesn't mean anything because you can do any in their mindset.

[00:46:33]From what we understand from studying IBLP, you can literally do anything. If you seek forgiveness, it has to be given. if you're seeking forgiveness and you have to be redeemed and that's all you got to do and have kids and you're going to heaven which they think is a lot more important than going to jail.

[00:46:48]>> And I think and an important interesting distinction there too is it and the and the forgiveness it doesn't have to come from your victims. It just has to come from >> No, no, no, no. The victims mean nothing.

[00:46:59]>> Nothing. They're not even the damn equation.

[00:47:02]>> Children are quivers. As long as you as long as you go and speak to Sky Daddy and and and Sky Daddy tells you specifically you're forgiven or you just this is what the form says. It says I mean if you ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven if you believe in >> besides and besides the the forgiven by the victims well the victims are shamed into forgiving them because in order to keep under the umbrella you have to show forgiveness.

[00:47:32]>> Then they're Yeah. then they're in the wrong under the >> you see how stupidly cycl cyclical this is. You have to forgive heinous acts by anyone or you're going to fall outside the umbrella and not go to heaven and burn in hell. That's the belief system.

[00:47:45]That belief system is self-fulfilling prophecy of creating narcissistic sreaks towards children.

[00:47:52]>> Exactly. 1,000% there. And there's I I just did a piece this morning um and I I was addressing Joseph directly in it because he some of those jail phone calls which are horrific to listen to.

[00:48:05]They're they're just so delusional in their nature of of >> same things towards Kendra. I mean all you do is is is is listen to that poor girl being >> basically tortured and she has no idea she's being tortured.

[00:48:16]>> No. Yeah. It's it's it's Yeah. I mean it's painful. She like I'm getting an IV. I can I'm not eating. and can barely walk and like I'm reading Ruth about how I'm redeemed. Is >> you need to read more Psalms.

[00:48:28]>> Yeah, read some Psalms.

[00:48:30]>> You know the transfusion today. Yeah, who cares? Suck it up. Read more Psalms.

[00:48:33]You'll feel better.

[00:48:34]>> It's it's like it's it's it's spousal abuse in my opinion just on like as as blatant as you can get.

[00:48:42]>> Actually, you want to watch trauma bonding live? Listen to it. She she's getting bonding. It is because she's talking about how horrendous she is and at the very end she goes, "Do you love me?" "Well, yes, I do." "Oh, thank you for loving me." There it is. There's the one bomb and trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. Little bomb.

[00:48:58]>> Yeah. Cuz at there, that was a big tell on that where at the end she's like, "Do you?" She's asking if he loves her.

[00:49:05]>> He abused >> children. And she's asking if he loves her.

[00:49:11]>> You know, and this is this is why, you know, I I said on the piece this morning that I'll be dropping here tomorrow. Um, sometimes you got to fight fire with fire. And since he's speaking all biblically, I spoke all biblically right back at him. Um, and I'm going with the Matthew chapter about putting the millstone around the uh child, the predator's neck and dropping him in the sea. He skipped that part. He went right to Ruth and went right to the redemption, not the part of Jesus talking about, "Let's put the millstone and kick you off the boat." I like that one better. I think it's more applicable. It's actionable. It seems like it could be effective. It would solve a lot of problems. I say let's go get a boat this weekend. Everybody can go out in it, you know, have a couple beverages and there you go, Milstone.

[00:49:52]See you later, Joe.

[00:49:53]>> You know, I'm I'm I'm giving a lot of uh credit to Amy Duggar King on her book Holy Disruptor on this one. She starts out the entire book uh the first chapter countering all of Jim Bob's and IBLP's doctrine with other uh other citations from the Bible that totally debunk everything that they stand for. So, >> she did a great job at that. Yeah, >> she really did.

[00:50:13]>> Yeah. Yeah, highly recommend. And if you've not seen our interview with Amy, the conversation, uh, it is up here on our channels. Go and, uh, check it out.

[00:50:21]There's more to come, uh, very likely, by the way, too. Um, so it should be, uh, yeah, my god. Uh, all right. Uh, your thoughts in the, uh, the comment section on Substack and YouTube. We'd love to hear them. Uh, we'll try and get to them. Uh, I'll try and answer them online or in a future episode of the program here. Love for you guys to weigh and press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts. uh so you don't miss any episodes. Robin's latest book, It's Not All About Me. There you go. It's worth reading. Joseph, this will be a good one for you. Uh while you're on house arrest, um you know, while you're sitting there uh and looking for something to do. Uh all right, until next time. For Todd, for Robin, I'm Tony Brusski. We'll talk again real soon.

[00:51:01]Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brussi and the Hidden Killers podcast.