In the American legal system, juvenile defendants charged as adults may still be released on bail rather than detained, depending on factors such as their age, lack of criminal history, and the judge's assessment of flight risk and danger to society. This case demonstrates how the Juvenile Delinquency Act and Bail Reform Act interact, with judges having discretion to consider the defendant's age and circumstances when determining pre-trial release, even for serious charges like murder.
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Step Brother Accused Of Killing Step Sister NOT Jailed Today!Added:
Welcome back everyone to the Wizard of Radical Self-Respect. My name is Shared Melo and I'm the shepherd of black sheep. To my right here, my buddy Shadow the Night owl. He is the spirit animal of the channel. All the support for the channel helps me to pay for Shadow the Night owl soyf free hoodie snacks. He is very hormone and testosterone conscious.
And in this episode, what we're going to do is go over the cruise ship homicide.
And there's some wild news about this today. The stepbrother, who is accused of killing his stepsister, was not detained by a judge today, which I kind of think is wild, which somehow the judge thought he wasn't a flight risk. We're going to go over Brian Eton's video about it, and it goes over what the heck's going on with it, but it's uh it's interesting. So, Brian, Danielle, Autumn D., welcome back, everybody. Let's hop right into this Brian production here.
Also, on your way in, make sure you like this video, too, because this is a new stream now. Hello there, Nanny. How are you? Shadow says hello to you all. Make sure you like this video, spank that like button, subscribe if you're not already subscribed, and as always, super chat, super stickers, and becoming a channel member or gifting channel memberships. Great ways to support the channel. We had our membersonly live stream earlier tonight. As always, we had a blast in there. Hello there, Leanne. Welcome. Let's see. There we are.
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All right, let's jump into this here.
Hey guys, uh thanks so much for uh for checking out my show. Appreciate you guys so much. Thank you so much for uh for checking out my content and for subscribing. Uh I just uh got out of federal court. This is the federal courthouse behind me in in Miami. I was there. The Anna Keepner case, which I've been following for a while. That is the teenager who was on the Carnival cruise ship with her family and according to investigators, her stepbrother, 16-year-old Timothy Hudson. Terrible story. Uh, raped her, brutally raped her. And there were some just awful new details that came out today, which >> So, the names Timothy Hudson, he is the 16-year-old accused of doing this. Anna Keaptainner. She's the stepsister that's been said and killed. Now, prosecution says it's a pretty cut and dry case, which makes it even more suspicious why he wasn't detained today, but that's what we're going to break down here. The defense is trying to cause some reasonable doubt, as is their job to do.
But let's see what we agree with here.
I'll get into and then murdered her, strangled her to death, according to investigators. Uh, and again, just new details today that were terrible. I mean, apparently it took 3 to 5 minutes for her to die as he uh was strangling her. Um, and what is shocking is that he is still free. I thought that he would walk into court today uh and that he wouldn't walk out because the the charges and the allegations are so horrific. but he walked back out free to go back home with his uncle, which I'm going to explain the reasoning that the judge gave and I'm going to explain all of the new details that came out uh in court. I was just up there. I had to take all handwritten notes because they don't allow phones in federal court. At least they didn't for me. Uh so I'll get into all of it uh in this episode of Brian and Hey guys. All right, so I'm outside federal court. I'm going to go through everything that happened in the hearing and the new information that we have when it comes to what allegedly happened to Anna Keaptainner. Remember this happened on a Carnival cruise ship in November International Waters. Uh there was a family trip. You know, Anna was sharing a room with her stepbrother Timothy Hudson and her other brother.
And um according to investigators, and it's the FBI that investigated her stepbrother, 16-year-old Timothy, uh raped her um and some of the details are just awful, which I'll I'll get into in a second, and then strangled her to death. and um hit her hid her under the bed, wrapped her in a blanket, covered her in life jackets, and actually went to sleep in the room with the other brother. The other brother didn't even know that the dead sister was hidden under the bed. I mean, it's just it's horrific. Um and there's been a lot of outrage because how is this suspect still free? Look, he is 16 years old and he was initially charged as a juvenile, but he has since been charged as an adult. It was changed. He is now being treated as an adult in the federal system. Uh charged with murder and rape, yet still walking free. And you can see in the video, he walked into the courthouse and he walked out of the courthouse. And he's living with his uncle right now up uh near Tampa, Florida. The hearing was here in Miami.
Um so I personally thought that he would be taken into custody. Uh, but as I'm going to get into in a second, it's more complicated than that because he's a juvenile because the federal system is not really set up for juveniles. So, I took really detailed notes of everything that happened in the hearing. I'm going to go through it with you now. Bear with me because basically you're not allowed to have electronics in federal court.
You actually are, if you fill out all these forms, which I forgot to do yesterday. So, I all I had was my notebook. So, and I have terrible handwriting. So, like sometimes I even have a hard time reading my own handwriting. So, just bear with me as I go through my notes. But Timothy uh came into court, the suspect arrived with his family. Uh he was wearing a short sleeve shirt, uh blonde hair, looked like a fresh haircut, uh looks like a 16-year-old, which to me was just kind of weird sitting in court thinking about that. I mean, he looks like a cleancut 16-year-old kid. And so, you're hearing these allegations and you're like, "Oh my god." Like, it's just kind of hard when you look at him to piece together what he is accused of. But he sat there, short sleeve, button-up. Um, again, fresh haircut, blonde hair. They referred to him as TH in court, which is interesting. They don't call him by his full name because he's still technically underage and 16, which kind of confused me because I thought once they charged him as an adult, they would start referring to him by his real name, Timothy Hudson. But in court they just refer to him as TH. Um before um they were operating under what they called the Juvenile Delinquency Act. So that's the federal system that handles juveniles. That's now changed because he is now officially an being charged as an adult even though he's 16.
Uh there was some new information with the timeline. According to the FBI, the victim's last communication was at 8:14 p.m. She was on Snapchat. So that was apparently before the murder and the rape happened.
Um prosecution was asking for detention saying he needs to be locked up. Uh concerned that he is a flight risk or a danger to society. Uh they believe uh that the game has changed now that he is charged as an adult. Before he was being charged as a juvenile, now he's being charged as an adult. And the the prosecutor told the judge, "Look, the game has changed now that he's being treated as an adult, looking at a life sentence, a minimum of 24 years." They also believe that that creates a real danger for him fleeing for flight risk.
Um they said that the prosecutor said that the the family could feel bad for him and help him flee now that they know that he faces a life sentence. Um that there is clear evidence that he is a danger. Um that he again raped his his stepsister.
Um, and I don't even want to say some of this stuff like in this episode, but it was brutal. And they described the rape, the alleged rape that her underwear was shoved inside her. They said that his DNA was found >> inside her that connected him to her.
>> Yes. And uh, a warning for the graphic material you'll hear.
um his semen, uh that Anna had bruising on her neck, that she was pinned down, and remember this was in a Carnival cruise ship cabin, that he strangled her to death, that there's no way that this was an accident. Again, this was all according to the prosecutor as she was making her argument of why he should not remain free. Uh that he strangled her um for so long that her eardrum burst and that there was blood in her eardrum.
that's how brutal the strangulation was and that it lasted 3 to five minutes. So there was 3 to five minutes where she was essentially dying and and and suffering and that there was blood in her eard drum. It's just horrific to think about. But look, I struggle with whether to share some of these details, but this is what was said in court. And I think for people following the story, you need to know the details. And it's also important when you consider that this kid walked out of court. So I want to share these things with you, even though I know it's kind of rough. Um, surveillance video the prosecutor said shows that this is not a who done it because it shows him entering the cabin.
Shows her entering the cabin and then she ends up dead and there's no one else that could have done it because there is a surveillance >> and that makes it seem pretty cut and dry, right? Doesn't seem like a question of guilt in this case if there's footage of him going in. They're both in there at the same time. Could have been nobody else. Um, and that's just some wild ceiling theory, which I highly doubt.
This seems like the most likely outcome.
Aams razor, he did it. Camera in the hallway of the cruise ship. Um, this was new. So, the prosecutor explained that Timothy tried to get rid of Anna Keaptainner's cell phone, that um there was a ship employee who found the phone, that he took her phone and put it into a trash can on the ship, and that somehow through the routers in the ship because the phone was connected to the Wi-Fi plan through the Carnival cruise ship, there was a staff member that was able to find her phone in the garbage. And so, the prosecutor made the case that look, he was trying to cover up what he did. Not only did he rape and murder her, but he tried to cover it up by hiding her phone because there was evidence on the phone.
Um, surveillance video showed who committed this crime, DNA evidence.
Again, according to the prosecutor, she said he has no criminal history. He lives with his uncle, but he's allowed to visit his father and he works with his father. And just the fact that he's able to leave and work with his father and do all of this stuff out in society is a concern. The prosecutor said, um, he lives with two minors, she said, which she found to be especially concerning considering these allegations. And she said, "We don't know who the next person will be, who the next person he will be fixated on will be." So, she made the allegation that he was fixated on his stepsister, that he had no criminal history, but became fixated on her, and then apparently somehow snapped. Um, which I'm gonna probably do a future episode with like a forensic psychologist because how does someone just snap and do this? But apparently, according to the prosecutor, it's possible. Became fixated with Anna and then snapped and did this. She said he has ADHD, ADHD.
There is no sign that he was a danger before and that's concerning. And then she said used the phrase 0 to 60. He went 0 to 60. No sign as of a danger as being a danger before and then all of a sudden rapes and murders someone and that's why he is such a danger to society. She said 0 to 60 is how she described it.
Uh she said something about the boyfriend, Anna's ex-boyfriend, her boyfriend saw the stepbrother trying to get into Anna's bed at one point and and let the family know. And and she basically was making the point, the prosecutor, that the family should have never let them share a cabin together in the first place. Um that they were just trying to save money, but they should have never shared a cabin. That there were warning signs there in some regard.
That was at least the vibe I was getting from the prosecutor. Um they talked about how there's no case law. how unusual this is. And again, they're not equipped for a juvenile in the federal system. It became very clear the judge was asking a lot of questions. They were explaining how there's just no precedent when it comes to a lot of this. They don't typically try juveniles in federal court. And normally when there is a juvenile case like this, they will hand it over to the state court because the state court has a juvenile system. They have juvenile detention centers. They are used to trying juveniles and that that is what it seems like the federal system would prefer to do. But the issue in this case is that this happened in international waters on a cruise ship.
So there is no state to hand the case over to. So they are stuck with it trying to sort it out. And that came up over and over again that that this is a unique situation that there is no case law that it is unusual. And um that that was one of the reasons it seemed I mean the judge even said at one point that he would have had Timothy in custody from the beginning if he was an adult, but it's more unusual because he's a juvenile. So after the prosecution made her case of like he definitely needs to be locked up. He's dangerous. He could flee. No question. This I hate to say kid, but this teenager needs to go behind bars. Then the defense made their case saying, "Look," he said, the defense attorney said it's a circumstantial case with a theory that has a lot of gaps in it. Kept saying that it's very circumstantial. Um, that he had no issues before, that he's complied since he's been out on bond, that he's been to all of his court appearances, his uncle has been kept keeping a close eye on him, that he hasn't tried to run in the past. There's no risk of flight. He surrendered himself from the beginning.
He doesn't have a driver's license, he said. So, how could he flee if he doesn't have have a driver's license? He doesn't have a car. So, how could he flee if he doesn't have a car? Um, and he said that the uncle and the father are willing to cosign on the bond. So, they were willing to guarantee that he will not flee and that he will follow the rules. Um, and he kept saying, "The defense attorney, I have serious doubts about the case." And he kept saying that there were gaps in the case. And the judge tried to get him to elaborate at one point. Um, and he just said, "Look, I'm not going to try the case here, but there are gaps." And just thinking back to what the prosecutor said, again, we don't know all the details, but she says there's DNA clearly connecting him to the rape and that the surveillance video shows he was the only one in the room when Anna Keaptainner was strangled to death. So, I don't know what gaps the defense attorney is talking about, but look, we haven't heard all the evidence yet. If this goes to trial, we'll find out, but he kept saying that there were gaps. Um, the judge kept pushing back saying, "Look, this doesn't seem all that circumstantial." Uh the defense questioned whether the sex was consensual, which is kind of interesting. Uh but again, remember the prosecutor said that Anna's underwear was up inside her and that it was clearly, you know, bruises from strangulation, that it was clearly not consensual. Um and um he said the defense said that this case is riddled with assumptions.
Um, and he proposed a personal security shity bond with a GPS monitor. Again, >> of course, he's just doing what a defense lawyer is going to do, but trying to create a reasonable doubt. I'd struggle to see it, though, if I'm on the jury in this trial. And as always, please remember to like the video because likes are free. Subscribe to the channel if you're not already. Say hello to the flock of black sheep in the live chat and super chats, super stickers, and becoming a channel member or gifting memberships. great ways to support the channel. They helped me pay for Shadow of the Night owl soyf free hoodie snacks >> again where the uncle and the dad would sign off. Um and sorry again my handwriting is terrible.
Uh so then the judge started speaking when he started to make his decision and said he wants to know whether there is an open um is there an option closer to the family in terms if he was going to put him away. could he put him away close to his family where he lives near Tampa. He asked the marshals to do an inquiry basically into the local, state, and county level um juvenile detention centers because remember those aren't run by the federal government. He wants the Marshall Service to look into some of those and get back to him uh because um because he has to make sure that they fit within the federal guidelines.
Remember the federal system has certain guidelines for prisons and the way people are housed. So the judge asked the US Marshall Service to look into some of these facilities and then get back to him and ultimately decided that he was going to let Timothy walk free again. So Timothy walked into court today and he walked out and we all chased him with our cameras. We tried to ask him questions. He obviously didn't respond. He was surrounded by family and attorneys. He got into an SUV that was waiting. But I think a lot of people were shocked thinking that Timothy would be locked up today. Uh, you know, there was the option of putting him in the regular adult jail while they figured out what juvenile >> I can tell you what if he doesn't get life in prison without parole if not worse. People will lose their absolute minds uh facility to move him to. But the judge opted not to do that. said that he will remain on home detention with his uncle, that he'll be electronically monitored, that he's not allowed to leave the house. That was a little confusing. At one point, he said he wasn't allowed to leave the house, but then I think he just has to be with his uncle at all times. So, I think if his uncle leaves, maybe he's allowed to go with him. But at the end of the day, he's free. He's back in his uncle's house. Though the judge did say he's going to elicit a report from the US Marshalss about the different facilities that that Timothy could be housed in juvenile detention facilities and he asked for that report and it seems he's going to look at that and then make a final decision. So doesn't mean that Timothy Hudson is going to remain free forever. Uh but at least for now he is going to go back to his uncle's house which again shocked a lot of people. I mean, the allegations are just so serious. And the judge even said flat out, if this was an adult, I would have said no bond from the beginning. I would have kept him in jail, but because he's a juvenile, the circumstances are different. So, that was the latest. Let me make sure I didn't miss anything.
That was really the latest from court.
There were, like I said, a couple added on restrictions. Must stay home with his uncle. We'll allow him.
>> So, that's really all it is. The judge said it's because he's a kid. Even though they're trying him as an adult, that's the only reason why he's not detained. if he was an adult, he'd be detained.
Interesting logic here. Kind of gives you the the your spidey sense starts st tingling in this case and you wonder, hm, I wonder if justice will be served on this one or are they kind of sewing the seeds for a little bit of a gentle landing here in terms of the sentence? I don't know.
What do you think out there, folks? Is he sewing the seeds for being lenient in this case? Press one if you think he might be doing that, this judge. Press two if no, it's just uh just because he's a kid and he's going to get prosecuted to the full extent of the law and the consequences will fit the crime.
Press two if you think that. Press one if you're not so sure.
Um, yeah, basically the same restrictions he was under to begin with while he waits for this inquiry by the marshals. So, that was really the latest. Um, I my buddy Ben Ashford, who you guys have seen on my show before, he works for the Daily Mail. He was also in court and he's like a real expert on this case. I've been following it since the beginning, but he's been to like literally every hearing and knows the case inside and out. So, I am going to leave court and go meet up with Ben and get his take on some things and he also has some new information and I want you guys to hear from him. So, I'm going to pick it up with Ben in a second. All right. So, I'm joined now by Ben in his car who was also at the hearing who's been covering uh the Ana Keepner story really since the beginning. You've been to like all the hearings, you know, the families. Yeah.
>> Um what was your reaction to the decision that he w I mean that I wasn't I personally wasn't expecting him to walk out. Um, I thought it could go either way. I thought he could well be locked up. He could also leave. But what I didn't really expect is there for it to be unresolved. I didn't see why at this stage it was like a hearing initially calling for another hearing. I think it was frustrating for everyone involved. And I know it will be very frustrating for the family from when I've spoken to like Anna's dad before. They just want it resolved. They want him in custody as well. But I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't sit in the federal courts every day. But it seemed frustrating when he had all that information there. The judge today, Judge Edwin Torres, um they'd had a three-hour hearing previously and there wasn't enough information to decide what to do with him. I that that's what surprised me. I thought it was going to be in out. We would have minimal information, which has been the trend throughout the process, and they would basically announce a decision that they had made almost behind closed doors. It was the opposite. We turned up and the the judge was almost asking the lawyers, "What am I here to do?" Oh, I've never really reviewed one of my own decisions before.
It was all a bit chaotic. Um, and in the end, if you fast forward a couple of hours, he didn't reach a decision. and he just pushed it further down the road.
So, he didn't say he wouldn't put Timothy in custody. He said, of course, that he wanted to know if there was a juvenile facility, an appropriate facility for a juvenile, a state facility that he could be housed in that was closer to his family in Hernando County because he said even though he's been prosecuted as an adult now, um you the statutes, the federal law means you still have to be cognizant of the boy's age and his needs. So he can't be with adult prisoners.
>> The flock of black sheep wants to send Mavs some good vibes as does shadow too.
There are some supplements that can help with anxiety. Things like nioinamide which is vitamin B3 or a GABA supplement and this is in lie of prescription drugs but just something to try. Deep breathing can help. Meditation could possibly help. Spending time with your pets or dogs can help. All of it can help. Shadow and I are all for whatever helps each person.
>> He can't be held in solitary confinement. So, if you think about that, if you send him to an adult jail and you put him in a part of the jail that didn't include adults, that might amount to solitary confinement. So, he needs to be in a a proper juvenile facility around other juveniles where he can be let out of his cell where he's got access to education.
Um, and they contracted out to the state of Florida. They had lined up a facility in Miami. I think they said there was a choice of two in Miami. And then they asked the uh defense lawyer, the federal um public defender, and he basically said, "Well, if you are going to lock him up. It's probably better for me if it's in Miami because I need access to my client.
>> And then the judge said, "Well, actually, I think he needs regular visits from his family and therefore he needs to be up in um North Central Florida." And he asked the US Marshall Service to go away and do a factf finding mission and to see if there is an appropriate facility for him when they had already done all that and said there's a place for him in Miami.
So that's where we're at. So one would presume that there will now be another hearing and they'll come back and they'll say, "Okay, the US Marshall Service said you can put him in this place, I don't know, in Hillsbor County or Tampa or whatever." And then they'll have the same argument and you would imagine at that point the judge will be satisfied and he'll put him in custody.
But at that point it might be a couple of weeks off the trial. So what's the point? So, you've you've seen Timothy before. I mean, you went out to where he's staying with the uncle. Yeah. I think you have you seen him at another court hearing, too?
>> Um, >> no. We saw him go into a closed door court hearing.
>> Okay.
>> So, that's the first time we've seen him. We sat in a court.
>> But you've seen him outside before?
>> I've seen him outside in the place where he is now under house arrest.
>> So, what did you think of him? I'll tell you what I thought first. I mean, I he looks like a boy. I mean, he's a >> 16-year-old kid. Um, he seemed >> like he was wasn't really paying that close-up of attention. Like, I know he's kind of like playing with his lips at one point. Like, I don't think he was like really focused in.
>> It's hard to imagine the allegations are terrible, but like what did you think when what did you make of him?
>> The first time I saw him, I thought, "Wow, he's a little scrawny pipsqueak."
You know? I thought how I'm not disputing the evidence or the charges or saying whether he's guilty of anything.
I wondered that such a scrawny little kid could overpower anyone. I mean, he did not he does not he's not big. He's very slender. He's small. I would say for 16 he looks maybe more like 14 15.
And to me just looked like a rabbit in the headlines today. in the headlights.
He was just sat in court staring forward quietly. He blew his nose a few times. I don't think he was crying. I think he probably had a cold or something. But I didn't really see any any emotion. I just saw him staring dead ahead. Very dead pan. I don't think he I I don't get the sense that he really quite understands what's going on or how serious it is.
>> I think that's I think that's part of the problem. I think he he Yeah. When >> Yeah. I mean, when you're 16, your frontal lobe and your brain isn't fully developed. So, in a way, he might not understand it, but that doesn't change how the court of law is going to work.
>> I spoke to him, he just sort of stared at me blankly. Um, I mean, I'm ridiculous, but that's kind of what happens when you go up to a a boy and ask him a question.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you get that sort of answer.
And it was like that. was that, you know, he's the same age as my nephew and it is is about the same size as my nephew. And and that's a a shuddering thought of someone that just goes to show, you know, someone who's so young and underdeveloped.
>> Yeah.
>> Is in this situation like how did he if he did those things, their allegations, how where did that come from in such a young child?
>> Well, but I mean and he's obviously innocent till proven guilty, but the prosecutor laid it out. I mean, the surveillance video, he's the only one who went in the room.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, his seaman was found inside her.
>> Um, he tried, which was new. I hadn't heard this about the phone. He tried to get rid of the phone. Yeah.
>> Which I thought that was actually very interesting.
>> So, I mean, considering those things, it seems like a cut and dry case of guilty, >> but we'll see. We'll see what kind of rabbits the defense pulls out of their hat here. that he got it into a trash can and that they used the Wi-Fi router.
>> Yeah.
>> To find the phone. Um, >> you know, I had actually heard that a long time ago. I'd heard that and I wasn't really able to stand it up, so I didn't publish it. And what I thought at the time was if you're on a cruise ship >> and you might have a balcony. I don't think they had a balcony, but >> if you want to dispose of a phone Yeah.
and you're on a cruise ship, you just go out on deck and you throw it over the side of the boat. Why on earth would you put it in a trash can? Well, the answer is if you're 16 and you're stupid, you might do that allegedly.
>> So perhaps, you know, I mean, the obvious thing is to drop it over the side of the ship, but he didn't do that. And I I thought that this just sounds crazy that he just put it in a trash can. Allegedly, that's what he did.
They talked about him living with he lives with the uncle but also two minors. Do you know anything about are there other kids there?
>> Um I know there's at least one child and it did say it referred to plural children in the filing. So yeah, there could be there could be I'd seen like a social media picture of the uncle with a child and it might have been a few years old. So they might have another child, but I don't know the ages of of their children. It is kind of shocking that someone accused of murder and rape and even the details of him strangling her and her basically dying for three to five minutes and the blood in her eardrums.
>> I mean, all of the details were awful.
And you're looking at the 16-year-old thinking like, "Oh my god, you know, he's accused of this." But it it >> I still am having a hard time with like him being able to leave, >> be free essentially, and in the same house as two minors. Like I'm surprised the judge isn't more worried about that.
>> Well, I think what happened was almost immediately he was placed in that house and then you had the Brevard County family court proceedings where that came up and they said, "Okay, we're putting him in this house." So, we know that as soon as they got back from the cruise, they know there's this shadow of suspicion over Timothy. So they sent him away from the house which they had to do really if you think about it and he's been there ever since. So he's been there for a long time now and there's never been any issue I think because the family court in Brevard County said oh that's okay kind of endorsed the arrangement and they had to f file like an affidavit saying they would leave him there and they wouldn't go and get him. Um, and then this judge inherits the case and he's a boy and the excuse me, I think it's the Juvenile Delinquency Act.
>> That's they pointed this out in court today. When you enter the federal system as a kid, you're under this very kind of kid gloves piece of legislation that means it's about rehabilitation rather than punishment. You come out at age 21, is it? Regardless of what you did and um there was Yeah, you don't get a criminal record.
There is a serial killer that did this very same thing. I think it was Edward Keer, but he was 16.
He killed I think it was his grandparents or something crazy like that. And since he was so young, they let him out.
under this kind of thing he's talking about only for him to become even worse of a serial killer later. So hopefully they learned their lesson about that.
I'll look up the uh the specifics about that in a second.
>> So that was the framework in which he came into the court system. So under that law, they let him spend the past three months with his uncle. So when they got into court today, even though it's the bail reform act, which is a much tougher act because it now is an adult, >> the juvenile legislation doesn't apply.
He's an adult now. But this was the argument that there's so much water under the bridge now. So if a murderer, if someone kills someone on a Saturday night and they're in court on Monday, they don't know what they're going to do. So they lock them out out of an abundance of caution. But they were making the point in court that, well, he's been there for 3 months. He hasn't done anything wrong. There hasn't been any incidents. He's with responsible adults. He can't get away. He doesn't have a driving license or a car. So, they were kind of just saying, well, let's just keep the status quo. So, they did have this body of evidence, I guess, in which he hadn't done something wrong or offended. Of course, the prosecution is saying if he did something allegedly like that on the boat, he could lash out at any moment. So, you know, all all common decency and common sense means you lock him away from people. So, there's no chance he can do that again. So, as it was a complicated one because he'd already been there for some time and and the trial isn't that far off now.
>> Yeah.
>> It's September. So, >> it's interesting like you've covered a lot of court hearings. I've covered a lot of court hearings. It's pretty rare to go into something where you have a federal magistrate saying that it's almost an unprecedented situation or one that they don't even really know what to do or understand. Like I can't remember I've ever been in a federal courtroom where that has happened because typically they would hand off a case like this to the state if it happened in the state but it but it happened in international waters. like they're really stuck with this >> with this situation with the juvenile that you can tell they don't know what to do.
>> I kind of felt at times it felt like brainstorming. Yeah. But the judge would sort of dust off a okay, what about what about number 61295 statute. And then they'd kind of look at it and be like, I think what this means is >> when he's already in custody, you have to take into account XYZ, but if he's not already, you know, and they were kind of like sit Yeah, it wasn't they weren't making it up as they were going along, but they were sort of looking at the do looking at the statutes and thinking, "All right, how do we actually deal with this?" And even when we first walked in there, the the judge was kind of like, "What exactly are you asking me for today?" The first five minutes was a bit surreal. He's like, "Are you asking me to actually make a decision today or you're asking for a hearing?"
>> Yeah. So, that's what it was. I was correct. Serial killer Edmund Keer murdered his grandparents at age 15 and was committed to a California state psychiatric hospital. He was released on parole at age 21.
After his release, he went on a killing spree between 1972 and 1973, murdering and mutilating six college students, his mother and her friend. So, eight.
and he still gets parole chances. He was most recently 2024 up for parole.
2031 is his next one at a later date for a decision. I've never really he said he said, "I don't normally reverse my own um my own rulings. I normally get them right the first time." Something like that, didn't kind of laughed and there was a weird atmosphere because then you've got a boy >> you got a boy accused of murder sat in the front row and everyone there is is thinking are you going to lock him up or not >> you know get to the substance get to the matter we know why we're here and they were they were talking about >> even the Star Wars Star Trek >> yeah so the prosecutor kept saying because he was charged as a juvenile under the juvenile delinquency act and then it changed to him being charged as an adult, but she kept making the analogy of like Star Wars versus was it Star Trek?
>> We've gone from Star Wars to Star Trek, >> but she said it like five or six times.
>> And it was just kind of like >> it was a very clunky analogy. Couldn't work out >> which was which and what the significance was. But >> and this is also like right after you heard about like the brutality of what hap and then it's kind of like it was an interesting hearing. Like >> it was I thought it was going to take 15 minutes. It took several hours. At the end of the day, I did not re But this has been secretive from the start and they have sealed everything the instant it's been entered into the record. And yet the prosecutor today, she just said, "Right, okay. This is what happened.
This happened, this happened, he did this. He did that." And she almost like opened the entire case.
>> I was very I mean, this we were kind of joking about her Star Wars analogies, but I was impressed with her overall. I mean, she gave a very convincing.
>> He even The judge said, "You've done really well. You presented a very >> compelling case, but I just want to see if you can find him somewhere closer to his his home."
>> What? And just real quick, like the the family dynamic for people watching because this is her stepbrother >> and >> we know Anna's dad has said to you that he didn't want him to be free and has is obviously upset about the whole thing, but like what is the family dynamic?
>> Well, you can imagine it's a very very awkward one. So, >> you've got a feel for that guy Christopher, you know, like talk about being between a rock and a hard place.
So my understanding is >> Christopher is father.
>> Kepn is Ann's dad.
>> Anna's dad. Okay.
>> And so he lives with Sha Tel Hudson, Timothy's mother who hasn't been at court. He was brought to court today by his father Thomas Hudson. So he's living with Thomas's brother. So Sha tells, as far as I can see, is basically fully supporting Christopher. She has never come out solo and said anything derogatory about her son.
>> I got a super chat here from Brian.
You shared you should lower me gift minimum gift. The thing is YouTube I think takes like 30 to 40 to 30 to 40% of these anyway. So I don't know if it even allows you to to do too much lower.
Maybe 99 cents maybe.
But thank you for the super chat, Brian.
She said plenty of warm tributes to Anna and how much she loved her and misses her and how awful it was. And she has said, "We are united as a couple. We need justice for Anna." So, she's not come out and said, "Timothy is a monster." I mean, that's her son.
Uh, so it's very very confusing, but they've released joint statements basically focusing on remembering and paying tribute to Anna and for Anna to deserve justice. And Christopher, Anna's dad has not particularly kind of laid into Timothy in our conversations. It it there hasn't been too much hyperbole or he's this, he's that, I want to see him strung up or anything like that. He's been quite measured, I guess, because he knows how difficult and hurtful it is for his wife.
>> So, you know, it's just an incredibly awkward, devastating situation for that guy.
>> And the uncle who Timothy is living with. Um, do we know much about him?
>> Um, I think he's a law-abiding guy. He's a he's an exserviceman.
He lives in, um, quite a remote area.
Uh he's married, happily married.
>> Yeah.
>> By all accounts, totally standup guy, and they said in court that, you know, he's a responsible adult and he's willing to do whatever he needs to do and supervise the boy and to co-sign a bond if he goes out. So yeah, he seems like a a one of the more responsible people involved. You know, of all the of all the pe all the characters in this very sad drama, maybe, you know, that's one of the people doesn't have any kind of shadow over their reputation.
>> Sometimes I was thinking about in court today like with some of the other cases I've tri covered like even Tyler Robinson with the Charlie Kirk like his family shows up you know despite them turning him in and Mhm. Um, you just think about like >> Ryan, the lowest right now is 199. I don't know what the issue is here.
>> Like seriously, >> I was sitting there thinking like even though he is accused of such a terrible thing and the evidence is really bad.
It's like, yeah, it does seem like his family, at least the uncle, is still trying to do the right thing. And it's like >> the dad, >> the minimum of mine is not $6.99. So I don't know what you're talking about.
had been 100% behind him the whole time, you know, protesting his innocence.
>> Oh, protesting his innocence.
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, he's >> Timothy has pleaded not guilty.
>> Yeah.
>> And we we got a very interesting flavor of a potential defense today, you notice, because >> as No one wants to hear this, but it is a potential line of defense, isn't it? He said that he he didn't dispute the idea that Anna and Timothy had had sex.
>> He said that there wasn't there wasn't evidence to say whether or not it was consensual or non-consensual.
And he furthermore said that the prosecution >> apparently Brian wants me to change the minimum from 199 to 99.
are kind of presume presuming >> that the fluid entered Anna at the same time as the murder.
>> Yeah. He said they they could be separate.
>> They they could have had contact.
>> No one is suggesting it happened after.
>> Yeah.
>> But I guess he was hinting at that there could have been a sexual encounter before this all happened.
>> Yeah. It didn't the they said that he said that it was their case was based on gaps and presumptions, didn't he? And he said that he could see >> theories.
So he questioned whether there's any proof to say that the sexual encounter immediately was involved in the murder and that it was non-consensual.
>> It'll be interesting if it actually goes to trial. You're right. That was a little >> There are memberships for $2.99 and $6.99. Super chats can be any price.
Like you can literally do whatever you want for super chats.
>> Glimpse into what the defense may be.
>> Yeah.
>> Um anything else to you before I let you go? Um the only other thing was quite interesting was they said today um if he enters a plea they could get 24 to 34 years in they >> um and obviously life if he was found guilty but with that with credit for pleading it would go down to 24 to 34 you're probably better mass than me he's 16 or 20 plus >> potentially you get out 40 to 50.
>> Yeah.
>> So, quite a lot of life left if he did decide to >> Yeah.
>> plead.
>> Well, we'll see what happens next. I guess that I I don't know if there'll be another will there be another hearing when the judge gets this report back from the marshals about the juvenile jails or will he just make a decision?
>> He he said he was putting the motion in obeyance, wasn't he? Which means basically like suspending it for other things to be decided. So, uh, good question. We just have to watch Pacer, the court >> admin system, and see if there's another hearing. But, yeah, it strikes me that he could just order the boy to surrender and we'll just f find out about it once it's already happened. Particularly if it's up in Hernando County.
>> Yeah.
>> So, we could just find out one day he's in a juvenile detention.
>> Well, I'll stay on it. Ben will stay on it with the Daily Mail. He's been all over it. And, uh, thank you guys for watching. I'll talk to you guys later.
So, now we have some Nancy Grace to go to. So, be told me that it's just for gifting. That that's the minimum. That's news to me.
The so-called cruise ship girl teen Anna Kner's dad says, "I found her cold naked body stuffed under a bunk.
Her own dad pulls his daughter's dead body from under a bunk on the cruise line. Now he vows he will not sit through testimony. His mind, his heart, and his soul cannot go back to that room where his daughter was murdered. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. By the way, make sure you like this video as we move on to Nancy Grace here. Subscribe to the channel if you're not already and tell a few friends about the flock of black sheep while you're here, too. I like Nancy Grace as does Shadow as well.
The last thing she saw about that far away from her face is her own stepbrother as he strangled her dead.
>> The little brother heard fighting, heard screaming. Whatever happened, it was very violent. And then the next morning it's 9:00. Everyone's eating buffet and all of a sudden, where's Anna?
Seriously.
And yet the alleged killer is still walking free. Straight out to Michelle Spitzer joining us out of Melbourne, Florida. Florida news investigative reporter for USA Today. Michelle, thank you for being with us. Michelle, where is the alleged killer? this after her father says, "I can't possibly take my mind back to that room again."
>> Right now, he is with a relative, an uncle in another part of Florida, another county, and there are attempts being made to get him in custody until the trial.
Robert Crispen joining us now. Private investigator at Crisen Special Investigations, former federal task force officer, US Department justice, DEA, Miami field office. It goes on and on and on at crisen investigations.com.
But this is Florida, his jurisdiction, and he is joining us right there where that cruise ship took off but came back with Anna Keaptainner dead.
Robert Crispen, you hear what the dad is saying? He refuses to go back into that courtroom, to go into the courtroom and revisit that room again in his mind, his heart, his soul where he >> found his daughter.
>> So, what do you guys think about that?
What would you, if you're a dad and your daughter was murdered, would you not go to the court proceedings? What would you do? I mean, clearly this is a situation no one wants to ever be in ever, right? But what would you do? Would you go to court?
Would you do what he says he's going to do? Not go to court? I think most people do go to court. Like probably 90 something out of 100. 99 out of 100 do just for their loved ones sake, right?
But what would you do?
stuffed under a bed, cold to the touch, and naked.
Do you blame him?
>> Listen, I I being a father, I I don't want to ever have to deal with something like that. I I don't blame him. But unfortunately, this is the federal government and this is a homicide investigation. And by hook or crook, he's going to have to testify and the government's going to have to put him on the stand. He's the one who found Anna dead. He's the first person back to her body to find her naked.
>> I mean, is it me or does she look so much younger than 18 to me, >> wrapped in the blanket and covered in life jackets and finding her lifeless, cold, no pulse body. You don't get to not testify. I completely understand and I'm compassionate with him, but he is a major indicator of moving this case forward. Hey, Crisen. I believe that first um a maid went in and saw her and then I'm sure screamed her head off and then the dad went in and pulled her out. He touched the body. And that's kind of thing you never get over ever for the rest of your life. And we just heard Michelle Spitzer state from USA Today, Robert, that the alleged perp is walking free even now. Now, Robert, you've been there on location over and over and over, but this is what's happening right now. And I'm going to get Michelle Spitzer to back me up on this.
The per is living in a residential home.
Can I see Crispen? I want to get his reaction to this. He's not in jail. He's walking free. Now, this little girl, Anna Keaptainner, had been afraid of him for a really long time. And I'm going to play back to you what her then boyfriend said about how this perk had crawled on top of her before. And she was afraid and she voiced that concern. And the boyfriend and his dad told the parents, "But there's more. This is a pattern because tonight, Crisen, we are learning that the little brother, the one that was banned from the room so Anna could be and killed, that little brother. We are now learning, Crisen, that there are reports the little brother went to the mom, the stepmom and the dad, and told them something's happening. Something's wrong. And nobody did anything. Crispen, nothing. They could have saved her life if this account is true, Crispen.
>> So, if it's true, Nancy, and there is some banter that that happened and there is a superseding indictment that is potentially coming down the road, there were multiple indicators that we've learned through this story, Nancy, that this perpetrator, the killer, had a problem. And a lot of people knew that.
You ever hear the term see something, say something? That goes right down the line of what happened here. Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams from inside their room.
>> He heard him yelling at her like in a harmful way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that.
>> This dude's like a 40year-old 16year-old the bowl hauler.
like something was like banging around and stuff and like the chairs were getting thrown around in the room.
>> From our friends at Inside Edition, straight back out to Michelle Spitzer joining us, Florida investigative reporter with USA Today. Michelle, I find it very difficult to believe that the little boy aed 13 or 14 did not go tell the mom or dad something's going on in there.
Yeah, there has been nothing in court documents regarding the other sibling that was in the room and what he may have seen, what he may have heard. We do know he was not in the room when the alleged incident took place, but we don't know where he was again, what he heard or saw.
We also are learning from the uncle who went online to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. And I want to read it correctly.
This is from Martin Donahue. He states that the little brother told his stepmom when no one could find Anna on the ship.
So yes, they knew who did this. It sickens me. The father Chris remains silent. So, I guess this means I'm extrapolating from these words that it was the little brother again that raised the alarm Dave Mack the following morning that nobody could find Anna. So, you have the boyfriend and his father telling the family the per keeps trying to attack Anna. She's afraid. And again, if that's what's going on, it was extremely negligent for those parents to let them have the a room on a cruise ship together, isolated in international waters.
I mean, that's the scary part about cruises, right? I mean, cruise ships have like a detention center at the bottom of them because they need to. But some people when they get away from authority, they think, "Oh, wow. I'm going to try to get away with some things here because I'm away from authority. I'm away from the powers to be. Also, cruise ships, I would guess, have a few police officers, too. The police cruise officers, right? They have to or I would think so at least. Or does the crews hire their own security? Chat, what is it? Which do you know? Do they hire police or do they hire their own security?
I'd imagine it's one of them, right?
Nothing was done. Then you have the little boy reportedly reportedly telling the mom and the dad there on the cruise.
Something's going on in there. Nothing was done. You have the little brother again the next morning saying, "I can't find Anna." But no one did anything.
Dave Mack, do I have that correct?
Nancy, that is what Martin Donahue wrote um for all the world to see. You're dead on accurate. What he is saying is that Anna Keaptainner uh that this younger brother, this 14-year-old was locked out of the room and that he told the parents something's going on. I hear an argument. I hear stuff being thrown around. Nothing was done about it. And that's a shocking thing if true. It's beyond what most of us can imagine. But getting right to the heart of this, Martin Doniku um posted this early on, Nancy, and he's asking people to please follow along and be involved in this case.
>> How many warnings did it take for the parents to finally hear or did they ever hear what was happening to Anna Kentner?
Now, this little girl has been sex assaulted and murdered. Her cold, naked body stuffed under a bed on a cruise ship.
Yes, cruise ships have their own dedicated security teams. They act as the onboard police force, handling everything from disruptive behavior to investigating crimes and temporarily detaining individuals in the ship's jail, known as the Brig, until they can be handed over to local authorities at the next port. And that's the other part about it. A lot of people get absolutely shitfaced on a cruise. And when you're shitfaced on a cruise, uh, people's worst impulses can come out. And you better believe people that go on a cruise. Yeah, some of them that's what they're kind of their goal is.
Maybe not the worst impulses part, but they get drunk and then the worst impulses happen.
On board security operates much like a private police department, but with a few key differences. This is good here.
Ready? Professional staff. The security team is typically composed of former law enforcement officers or ex-military personnel. They are highly trained in crowd control, surveillance, and emergency response.
On board authority, security officers patrol the ship 24/7 and enforce the cruise lines guest conduct policies. If a passenger is overly intoxicated, violent, or repeatedly breaking rules, security can remove them from the ship at the next port of call. The Brig ships are equipped with holding cells for passengers who commit serious infractions or pose a danger to others.
Once the ship returns to its home port or makes an emergency stop, offenders are turned over to local law enforcement. jurisdiction and the FBI.
Because ships sail in international waters and across different countries, the rules can get tricky. However, for many US-based cruise lines, major crimes like assault or theft, or worse, in this case, are strictly governed by the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act.
Interesting. Onboard security will secure the scene, pre uh preserve evidence, and work directly with organizations like the FBI to determine jurisdiction and investigate the crime.
Now, let's take a look at the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act.
Going to the FBI.gov crew crimes on boards cruise ships. Did you know that the FBI investigates crimes committed on board cruise ships?
Shadow and I did not. Crimes during cruises. The FBI focuses its investigative efforts on spec blah blah blah specified serious crimes committed within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the US.
These crimes include, but are not limited to, assault with serious bodily injury, murder or attempt to commit murder or manslaughter, kidnapping, sexual assault, robbery, theft of money or property, and/or receiving stolen property in excess of 10,000, firing, starting a fire on or tampering with the vessel. The FBI also looks into suspicious deaths and/or missing US nationals. FBI authority. The authority of the FBI to investigate criminal offenses and force laws of the US on cruise ships, on other vessels on the high seas or within the territorial waters of the US depends on several factors. location of the vessel, nationality of the perpetrator or victim, ownership of the vessel, points of embarcation and debarcation, country in which the vessel is flagged.
Generally, the US has jurisdiction over crimes committed on a ship if the crime occurs within the maritime jurisdiction of the United States and the vessel is owned in whole or in part by a US person or company.
Additionally, there is jurisdiction over crimes committed by or against the US national on board a foreign vessel if the crimes occurs during a voyage having a scheduled departure from or arrival in the US. Interesting.
So that's our background on the law on the open seas. Shadow found that fascinating >> and her dad, her bio dad, having to pull the body out the nightmare sticks with him every day, every night, he vows he will not go back in the courtroom and relive what happened. He says, "I don't want to return to that room." Even in his mind, here's one of the warnings this family had. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her.
>> Joshua 2 says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime. Anna already asleep.
He says, "Dad, I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to believe me." He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy.
He's always wanted to date.
>> Chris doesn't realize it's his fault.
This whole thing is his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here.
So keep that in mind, Christopher.
I blame you.
>> That from our friends at Inside Edition.
>> Um, well, where's the where's his mother in all of this, too? By the way, doesn't his mother have something to say for for herself? Cuz it's her son, is it not? I would say they're both to blame.
I mean, do you think the father was told and then he didn't hear she didn't say anything? He didn't say anything to the mother like, "Oh, by the way, uh, your son is attempting to do this, this, and this. Don't you think he would do that?"
And maybe the mother defended him. What do you think happened? Seems like there's more to it. I don't know.
>> And Just Mom 1984 on Tik Tok. Let's hear what the boyfriend has to say in full.
>> And I was on FaceTime with her and she was laying down and the brother tried to go on top of her and >> you saw that.
>> Yeah. And then >> what did she How did she react to that?
>> Um I was like, "What the hell are you doing in the room?" You know? Um then he got scared and like ran away and I heard his footsteps like running through the house, you know, cuz he got caught. That was my first love. Um, she was the best that ever happened to me. And I'd even walked to her work to see her, you know, for like 5 10 minutes. She complained about um him being uncomfortable or her being uncomfortable around him uh because of the fact that he tried to go on top of her in the bed. And because of that, she tried to go and stay the night at her friend's house and to dodge the staying night at her house.
so upset she would try to go and stay at a friend's house overnight to get away from the stepbrother that ultimately according to federal pro honestly there seems like there has to be a massive communication breakdown here I mean honestly if I have a daughter and I'm with a stepmother that has a woman or I guess it would be a single mom that has her own son that's doing this it's like I mean that's pretty much a breakup offense. It's like, uh, what's going on here? Like, this person's not either not living with us ever again or we're done.
That's pretty much how it would go. I mean, am I wrong here? Am I missing something? I think that's exactly how it would go. That's how I would handle it.
It's like, um, if that's what your son's going to do to my daughter, you're out.
You're out. And I wonder maybe this guy is like a people pleaser or something and he tried to say something to the mother and the mother was like, "Oh no, my son would never do that." And if he's an idiot, he probably believed her.
Prosecutors killed her. That is from the Space Coast Rocket Instagram to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. You can see her now starring on Bravo and Peacock. She's the author of Deal Breakers and you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com.
Did you hear that?
>> And Nancy, this is so disgusting. This is the classic pattern of sexual abuse of a child. If the boyfriend was on FaceTime and TH climbed on top of Anna while she was asleep, how many times had this happened in the past and her dad refused to believe her? Let's be clear.
Th is not her brother. The parents had not been married that long. He's some add-on and intrusion into her life that she did.
>> That's the picture of the family. Let's take a look at that.
>> He's some Adam.
>> So I guess they are blacked out. So that's Timothy.
That's the sister, stepsister. That's the father. I guess blacked out and his daughter, Miss Georgia Bulldogs, I guess this is her son.
I mean, between the two of them, they were negligent. It's still the kid's fault, don't get me wrong. It's still Timothy's fault, but it certainly seems like more action should have taken place to prevent it. But again, this is the this is the at the worst. This is the end road of dysfunctional families sweep problems under the rug. This is the end result of that in the worst cases. Oh, you sweep the problem under the rug because maybe you don't want to believe it or whoever. And I'm surprised the father didn't want to believe it though, right? Like why would the father of the daughter not want to believe it? That doesn't make sense to me.
I can see more why maybe the mother wouldn't want to believe her son was doing that, but it still doesn't make sense. Like, I don't know. But if you sweep problems under the rug, this is the worst case scenario. This is a problem that you should not sweep under the rug. You need to take action.
And and again, if you're tempted to sweep problems under the rug, you need to take action to protect your loved ones. Like if you're the dad, you got to protect your daughter. Like what the hell's wrong with you?
>> On an intrusion into her life that she did not want. And Nancy, I do not believe for one second that bio dad is avoiding the court case because he's afraid of being retraumatized. If he goes to >> So tell me, who is the woman's father?
Who is his her father? Where is her father?
Who is the parents of who?
So Annie, you said it wrong.
That's the bio dad and the stepmother.
That's what I thought.
Court, he's going to have to hear all the details of the case and he's going to have information presented to him that he was not listening to her please.
And he does not want to hear that.
Nancy, in all the cases we've covered, the mother and the father always want to go to court. Always because they want to vindicate the slain child. So in this case, I think the father, it's one one last act of lack of protection towards >> I mean, and girl mama, that's a good question, too. Like, was it just the boyfriend that said something to them or did she say something, too?
That'd be very interesting to find out his >> daughter that he's not going to court.
It's it's tragic.
>> So now there are claims of a quote cover up, a cover up. You know, Robert Crispen, you were saying earlier that while the dad doesn't want to testify, doesn't want to relive what happened, he's going to have to. And you're right, he will be called as a witness and he will have to get up there and testify and he will be cross-examined.
But think about the strategy here, Crispen. I don't believe the defense is going to cross-examine him on why nothing was ever done to Anna because their client was the danger. How can they ask that question? Hey, how come you never protected your daughter from my client sitting over there? I don't think they'd touch that with a 10-ft pole.
>> That's a good point raised there by Dancy. Right. So, what you would normally do in the defense maybe is try to deflect blame to the parents, but they're in quite the conundrum here because if they do that, they're conceding that yes, my client is so dangerous. What do you do from a strictly removing yourself emotionally from the case? From a defense attorney's point, what do you do? How do you how do you defend this? I don't know.
I bet you Bruce Rivers, the criminal lawyer, would have something to say about it.
No, but the government will. and him testifying. I feel if he doesn't want to testify, and how many times have we seen this, Nancy, in homicide cases we've worked, he doesn't want to testify cuz if he is culpable of any part of this where he should have intervened at any part of when this all started from the time he jumped in on top of her when they arrived.
>> So, the crazy part about all these kid like these younger person killings is there's a lot of social media footage of them all, right?
and you see them. That's the one of the biggest differences, I think, from the 70s and the 80s and all the crimes that took place back then. Not nearly as much video footage, but with the present day cases, all sorts of media of social media coverage. And yeah, I mean, she's certainly a pretty girl. I think I think her braces are what makes her look even younger than what she is on FaceTime to the cruise to the to the information that they knew. He might walk himself right into an indictment.
>> Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Please join us on Crime Stories and stream it first on Fox One. When breaking crime news develops, we investigate it and bring it to youis. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Stream it first on Fox One. I hope to see you there. And thank you, friend. Dr. Bethany, it breaks my heart to think that this little girl, a teen girl, just scrubbed in sunshine, never did anything wrong in her whole life, would try to go spend the night at other people's her friends houses to get away from the stepbrother. Reminds me of another abuse case of mine, Nancy. A 12-year-old comes to treatment and her older brother is stalking her. It's a it's a biological older brother. And because of that, this little girl is falling into a depression. She has to lock the bathroom door cuz he will break into the bathroom when she's trying to toilet or take a shower. He peers into her room at night. He has flashlights.
He siblings can stalk another sibling.
It is not that uncommon if we think of the psychonamics of this family. But the fact is you never ever put a teenage boy in a room with a teenage girl. You just don't. And that's the part that seems just a little bit ridiculous, especially ones that are not related. And again to emphasize the the ultimate guilt goes to the person that did it, Timothy, right? So he's like 99.9.
But there is that 0.01 where everyone else that's in a situation like this, they should learn. Learn from their mistakes and don't ignore. Take action.
Don't sweep the problems under the rug >> even if they are biological siblings which they are not. So what I think the thing about Anna we have to keep in mind she was this is just what we see in this case but there was most likely a history of him stalking her within that home and climbing on top of her while she's sleeping. You can't tell me that she was safe in that bedroom or that this was the first time she had been violated by him.
>> Joining us now out of this jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer Greg Morse. He is a renowned criminal defense attorney. He founded Morse Legal and he is the author of Untested on Amazon. Greg Morse, I know you've got plenty to say, but here are just a few of the legal issues. and Michelle Spitzer joining us. USA Today, jump in if I get any of this wrong or if you want to add in. Don't wait for me to call on you like a school teacher.
Please, Michelle, I need help with Greg Morris because there's no telling what defense is going to throw out, spin it out. Greg, number one, why is this defendant walking free? Because if anything we've said tonight, if anything we have learned is correct, and let me remind everybody, the parents have not been charged with anything. Not neglect, not child abuse, nothing. This is based on statements made by others. Okay? They haven't been charged with anything. If these statements are true, that means there was a pattern, Greg Morse, a pattern of the stepbrother attacking Anna and nobody doing anything about it.
So, as Robert Crispen just told us, you see a pattern emerging. If it's true, can the parents be charged? What would the charges be? And if this pattern is true, why is he out free? If he has a history attacks and stalking young girls, you don't think there young girls in his neighborhood? There has to be right now.
>> Well, well, first of all, why he's out is because the fir under the uh Juvenile Detention Act, it's to offer the least restrictive means. The government sought only dangerousness, not risk of flight.
Those are the two reasons um that that the court considers. Um so, you know, they he's on the monitor. He's with an uncle. Um, so that's restrictive enough.
He can be monitored if he leaves the house. So that's enough. Switching it over because he's charged as an adult.
And now having this pre-trial release decided under the bail reform act because he's charged as an adult really is it's more procedural than substantive. There's no reason to revisit this other than the procedure changed. Um, he he should stay in the same position that he's at. Uh the court's not going to learn anything new probably at the um new bond hearing that I believe is coming up on uh uh the end of May, May 27th. So as far as the release, you can't just work backwards from a horrible crime and say he's has to be locked up. This was a horrible thing. Every single person is presumed innocent until the state proves every single element beyond until the exclusion of all reasonable doubt or the person please. So that's why he was released. These are restrictive means.
He's monitored 24/7. If he goes outside that house, that monitor goes off, GPS signal, police are notified right away.
Um, so with regard to that, and the court should probably keep him in the same situation now because nothing's changed. As far as the family, you're right. I mean, you know, you hear maybe they were arguing or there were problems and maybe the family wanted, hey, make this work. This new >> Shadow wants me to remind you all to like the video because likes are free.
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>> Blended family. Work it out, guys. You know, that type of stuff, it's a long way to impute knowledge of a murder and to a family. And Anna was 18 years old, so she was an adult. So you don't have some type of child neglect or something to that effect here. Uh because she's an adult uh when this happened. You know, the only thing that kind of seems like a disingenuous argument, though. I mean, I get he's a defense person, but when you're 18 in this scenario, you're still basically the kids on a family trip regardless of your technical age.
Maybe they could go with some type of uh um uh obstruction if they said something to law enforcement and made statements, but you could say, but it's the reality of it. Nancy, you want to convict everybody >> because they're arrested. We know how easy it is to arrest.
>> She's an adult. Show Anna Kapner again, please. She's wearing braces.
>> She's still in high school.
>> Sure. Sure. Okay. But she's 18. 18 is not an adult. Crispen, can you drink at 18 in Florida?
>> Florida's 21 years old.
>> Oh, okay. So, she's not even able to have what do they have now? The white claw kind of a kind of alcohol. But >> Nancy, I mean, technically, like I said what I said, but at the same time, I'll always say if you can go die in war, you should be able to do everything else. I do agree with that principle because if you can do that, you should be able to do whatever. But at the same point, you can make the argument just as easily that yeah, you probably shouldn't be able to die in war at 18, honestly. So, push it back.
But I doubt they'll do that.
Not really. She can't even have hard cider. And Greg Morris is telling me that she is an adult. Hold on. Keep it on Crispen. Crispen number one. I got Morse on tape because he says the same thing every time. And when he runs out of defenses, he says presumed innocent. He always throws that in at the end in case we forgot. But everything that he said is not answering the question. The question is, if what we're being told is true, there is a pattern of stalking and sex attack attempts. If that's true, he has a history. Why is he free in a neighborhood where there are young girls living around him?
Well, I have a huge problem with him being out on bond, even with his GPS monitor, because Nancy, as you get closer to trial and you meet with your defense team, you start to realize that your demise is very, very close and how strong the evidence is against you. And you start to become a caged animal, and you realize, I'm out. I only have a short amount of time to either kill myself.
That won't break our heart, however, or kill someone else and escape. I have a huge problem with him being out. I get that he's a youthful offender. I get it.
But there are a lot of violent youthful offenders, which is why he's being charged as an adult. if he I'm trust me the government knows about all this past with him and you're going to see that that's going to come up at this next hearing. I'm going to be shocked if this judge doesn't pull that GPS and put him into custody.
>> I mean, for Pete's sake, Crisen, it's a murder. This is not some little girl down at Walgreens stealing some eye makeup. This is >> Yeah. I mean, considering this is Florida, that doesn't really Florida's generally tough on crime. So, this surprises me from this judge that he would do this. I think it was a he, but I mean, Florida, they got no problems giving out the death penalty in Florida.
They're probably not as tough on crime as Texas, but they're close. There's some there's some pretty tough on crime sheriffs in Florida. So this all surprises me so far >> is a murder and according to a superseding indictment.
>> According to the state he her and murdered her. Hold on. Dr. Pria Banerjee joining me.
>> You know her well. She's a board certified forensic pathologist. She's an anatomic pathologist. She's with Anker Forensic Pathology Consulting. Dr. Pria, how does the state know this girl, this teen girl was assaulted? How do we know that? And describe the injuries to Anna Keaptainner.
We're both girl moms. This is hard, but autopsy, we do sexual assault kits just like analogous to if the if she was living. We collect we examine the area the area look for any injuries and take lots of swabs for DNA testing and microscopic exam. So looking under the microscope.
So if this is a forcable often times we see bruising and tearing in that area and that's really what is it's awful to see. There can be a lot of damage outside and inside and there are special autopsy techniques that are very invasive but allow us to really get a look at what the damage is. So it's it's a very complicated exam.
>> Greg Moors, very quickly explain what is a superseding indictment.
So, a superseding indictment is a uh another indictment after the initial or preceding ones that simply sometimes adds charges, adds elements to it, but it's to add information to the preceding indictments that have already been issued. So, it doesn't really unless it's something incredibly significant, it doesn't change the timeline very much depending on what it is, but it's a new indictment in the same case with new information. You know, we saw that over and over in the Shawn Combmes case. They just kept getting more and more victims and more and more evidence and there'd be a superseding and a superseding to the superseding and so on and so on. Um, that's an example. Oh, there he is. Did you have to show him to me again? I guess you did. Hey, Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. One thing of the many things that Moore said, and he's right, is this is a newly blended family. It's a very newly blended.
>> That adds to it as well. Newly blended is new. That adds to it.
>> Family. In fact, this stepmom and the biod are basically still honeymooners.
>> They were only married 11 months, Nancy, when this cruise took place. And during that time period of that 11-month marriage, there were all of these warning signs that you've been talking about.
>> Oh my goodness. So, they're only married 11 months. I wonder how long the courtship was before that. And imagine that you bring over some teenage dude and then your blended family now has like a pretty girl around your age.
That's just freaking awful. It's a bad bad news. Bad news bears.
It's like the Brady Bunch except minus the darkness or with the darkness >> between Anna Keaptainner and her stepbrother. So the shocking fact that they knowing all of this put them in the same room on a cruise and that the 14-year-old was locked out of that room.
It just goes to a total dread of what Anna Keaptainner was going through on a day-by-day basis with this stepmom's brother.
>> You know, it's amazing to me the way this is playing out. He is still out free. She's dead. Isn't it true, Michelle Spitzer, that her high school graduation, I hope you're listening, Greg Morris, claiming she's an adult.
Her high school graduation just happened and the dad, the bio dad, had to accept her diploma. What happened?
>> That's right, Nancy. Her high school graduation was just held this past weekend and her dad did go up and accept her diploma on her behalf. It was a very emotional moment. He wore uh butterflies on a shirt in honor of his daughter.
It's a very small private school.
There's only about 20 kids in the graduating class. The validictorian spoke about Anna, spoke about what she meant to the class, how much she has missed. Uh there was no mention about the suspect there and it was all focused on Anna and how much she has missed.
>> Michelle Spitzer, isn't it true that the siblings Oh, this is from our friends at Good Morning America. Isn't it true that these siblings set up her little senior table with all of her pictures and memorabilia?
>> That is what I was told that uh family members did.
>> I guess in some of these cases also, right, this case, McKenzie's case, there's a lot of pretty crappy parents out there. So, it would seem, don't you think? Or or Shadow and I out of line here, but it sure seems like there's a lot of crappy parents.
set up this table to reminisce about Anna and remember her in the good times.
Her family has said they want her to be remembered by the way she lived, not the way she died. Uh she was a cheerleader known for being very bubbly, very happy all the time. Um and so there were a lot of good memories and she was thought about a lot this weekend.
Hi guys, American homeowners. The >> I think the other part of it is there's always like Miss Kim said, there's always been bad parents. The difference is we can now get access to all of them.
We see them.
We see all the crimes and the bad things much quicker than we ever used to. So that can that can skew how people can see it.
So good point, Miss Kim.
Back to you, Crispen. I know you can't see a monitor where you're joining us there on the scene, but we were just showing her senior table. My twins are about to graduate, and I've been doing senior table after senior table after senior table.
Can you imagine putting together a senior table and your daughter has >> Did Auntie Grace just say she has twins?
been assaulted and murdered and the dad has to pull her cold body out from un stuffed up under a bed and you're making a senior table.
I mean, all you've got left of her is an urn a senior table.
>> I mean, listen, I I could see that in the monitor and that's heartbreaking.
That is beyond heartbreaking.
This entire situation is heartbreaking.
But accountability starts for everybody involved when the first arrest was made and the United States government is going to take this all the way to the end. If there's nobody else responsible and they deem nobody else is responsible, then it's over with the arrest of him. But yes, that table is heartbreaking and it's just I don't even know how to put words to it. I I I don't even know what I would do. either looking at that. And you know what? I got to make another senior table tomorrow night. I mean, and when I'm making those pictures of my little girl to put up on that poster, I'm going be thinking about Anna Keaptainner and her family making I can't remember if they did that when I was growing up. Do they have senior tables?
I can't remember if they did. I'm trying to even think remember my high school graduation.
all those posters we just saw and how they must have just been sick doing it.
But, you know, think about it. Looking at that poster board and that senior table and the dad getting a standing ovation when he goes to accept her diploma. Crisen, remember when her body was found, they came back to port and suddenly the stepson was too upset to speak anymore once the the law enforcement got a hold of him. But guess who else didn't speak?
The bio dad and the stepmom.
And according to these posts, the little brother had told them what had happened and they said nothing.
Listen, Nancy, that is not a coincidence. You as a prosecutor or me as a former homicide detective, that is not a coincidence. this time frame from the time that they found the body until that ship got back to port here behind me and the feds were able to get on there and start their investigation.
They had a lot of time to get together and talk. And family protects family regardless.
>> Well, when you say family protects family to Dr. Bethany Marshall, nobody was protecting Anna. Nobody was protecting Anna.
>> Nobody was protecting Anna. And I do hope Bodad does go to court in terms of this, you know, I forget what you call them. All the information being added on like we had with PD, a lot more is going to come out. She had girlfriends, Anna, whose whose houses she spent the night at so she would avoid th Let's not call him her brother because he was not her brother. She hadn't known him that long.
And all those girls are going to want to talk. They're going to talk to their mothers and fathers. The mothers and fathers are going to talk to police.
There's a lot more information coming out, Nancy. It's it's it's going to get ugly. I I'm I'm really sorry to say, but that's what's going to happen.
>> And speaking of upcoming, back to Michelle Spitzer joining us, investigative reporter there in this jurisdiction in Florida for USA Today.
Michelle, we've got upcoming court dates. The first thing, I believe, is going to be a court date where they're going to talk about bond. In case there's any threat that he might go into juvie jail, they want a bond. I think that's going to happen. The trial date has been moved. Tell me what's happening.
>> I do want to point out that a lot of the information that has come out uh aside from hearsay from random people is court documents related to a custody case involving Anna's stepmother and her former husband. They're still in a custody dispute. And that is where we are getting a lot of our information, including a text message exchange between Anna's stepmother and her former husband, the suspect's biological father, where they discussed um very vaguely what was going on. They were careful not to say too much. And if it was not for this custody dispute going on in court, we would know even less. So, we've got the upcoming court date, Michelle Spitzer, and I think they're going to ask for bond there.
When is that? And when is the trial set?
>> The upcoming hot tea, I agree that they absolutely [ __ ] up. I'm not saying they didn't. I'm just saying it still has to suck to lose your daughter is all. And it sucks to be the daughter that's dead, of course, as well. I mean >> think regarding bond is at the end of the month, end of May. The trial was delayed. It was originally scheduled for June and it has been delayed until September.
Summertime expenses stacking up fast.
For many, the only option is swiping that credit card, leaving us crime stories investigator reporter. Delay, delay, delay. the defense attorney's best friend. Hold on, Dave. Greg Morris, we know that's true, but why is that true that defense attorneys always want a delay?
>> Well, well, for two reasons. One, it's not here. The Southern District of Florida, which I've practiced in for 26 years, is very fast. This case will not linger for years and years and years.
Some of my homicide cases in the state system, they're go on for three years, four years before they ever get to trial. That will not happen here in the Southern District of Florida. It is very fast. And also, you have to remember for the defense lawyer, we're reactionary.
You know, the prosecution, especially at the federal level, they can try the case the day they bring the indictment for the most part. Um, they don't need to.
We have to get information, test the evidence, and do all those things um in in a reactionary sense. So, that's the reason why, but you don't get a lot of delays in the Southern District of Florida, which is the federal district that Miami is in. Um so so it's not going to last long but it's because we're reactionary uh with regard to um the information and evidence and that's that's why a lot of delay happens and the system has too many cases. So there's that aspect as well. But again I'm in a very fast jurisdiction and that's where this case is. So, I'd be surprised if it went into next year, barring something unusual. And I believe the delay happened because uh um they filed a superseding indictment and added a significant charge, which was the sex assault charge uh to this.
>> I think that that delay is legitimate. I think the request for a delay by the defense in this case is legitimate because when you have other felony charges at I mean, they should have known it was coming. The client should have told them everything that happened.
But that said, when a new charge is added, the defense has to get ready. You heard Mo say the defense is reactionary.
They react to what the state's evidence is. Why? Because they can't just take the stand and tell the truth because that could very well be a confession.
Can't do that. So, they have to react to what the state says. Here's our evidence. And the defense has to figure out how they're going to counter that evidence. We learned a lot, Dave Mack, in the state's filings about what the state says went down. Everyone in this case, including the defendant, including the parents, are innocent in the eyes of the law, unless and until the state pierces the presumption of innocence with facts and evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Dave Mack, what jumps out at you from the state's filings? I learned a lot.
>> Well, the one thing that that really comes to mind, okay, Nancy, is that some of the evidence that's been collected in this case so far, uh, a written statement by the defendant that the DNA found at the crime scene. And >> so more questions I would have is did she have custody?
Was Anna in custody of the father or is it just like visitation or who had the majority custody? Just more things to dig into, right? I don't know the answer to that >> data that was extracted from cellular telephone of a person identified SC.
There's reports from both federal and local law enforcement agencies included in all of this, but I'm curious as to what that data is going to show. What is that? As well as the written statement by the defendant. Um, we know what the indictment, you know, states that the murder occurred at the same time as sexual abuse occurred on November 6th.
Um, the timing has been placed of the of the sexual assault and murder has been placed between 7:30 p.m. and 9:30 a.m.
the following morning. Um, which is a an awfully long period of time, you know, 14 hours. Um, I I guess the biggest thing of all of this, Nancy, is that the grand jury said that th knowingly and unlawfully perpetrated the willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing of Kevin, the pre-meditated killing.
Meaning, did he plan this? Did he lure her in there specifically to kill her?
That's what jumps at me. H >> well again you know Dave premeditation under the law can be formed in an instant. The twinkling of a moment the blink of an eye the time it takes to raise a gun and pull a trigger under the law is time to form premeditation.
It's also felony murder if a felony occurred at the time of the death which is a felony sex act. So with that you don't even have to prove intent. We wait as justice unfolds, but please know the state is building its case, as is the defense. If you know anything about this case, please dial 7547032.
>> What the hell would anyone know about the case, though? Let's see what Anna Anna Kepler's mom has to say for herself.
What? So I called Anna's cell phone. She didn't answer. So then I got a hold of her on t well tried to get a hold of her on Tik Tok. Um she still didn't answer.
So I started questioning why is she asking me about that? So, I got on my ex-husband's Facebook where there was nothing on there. So, I got on to Cababie, his second wife's Facebook, the woman that raised my daughter. And um there I seen a picture of um her car with flowers on it. And Kabie saying that they're going to leave it at the high school for a short time as a memorial for Anna. And so that's when I Googled 18year-old dies on cruise ship is what I put in the search bar. And that's when my daughter's safe popped up all over.
>> So she found out her daughter died from Google.
Dad and stepmom didn't even tell her.
Insane.
>> I I I cannot even imagine.
>> Yeah. I just honest to God, I cannot even imagine finding out about your daughter's death by googling um and not getting a call. And to make matters worse, that there was a celebration of life. Um, I'm not sure if it was a full full-fledged funeral, but there was some kind of memorial held yesterday, and I'm told that you were banned that that your Yeah. that your ex-husband banned you from going. Can you walk me through what happened and what the circumstances were?
>> He told me that when I told him I was coming down there, he said that um that he knew for a fact that Anna would not want me there. And I said, "That's a lie. I was like, "Um, but whatever." And he goes, "If you step foot in Florida, I will have you arrested immediately for back child support."
>> Oh. So, so the woman that the woman's on drugs, had back child support or something. It'd be interesting to hear what Anna's version of the story is. How was her relationship with her mother?
>> And so, you you went anyway, right? In disguise.
>> Yeah. I wore a wig and I wore some really tall high heels so that way, you know, if he was looking for somebody short, he wouldn't see me.
>> And And were you able to attend the funeral? Did anyone see you or spot you?
Like, tell me what happened next when you got there.
>> Nope. Nobody spotted me. Um I kind of stayed in the back close to the door, so if I needed to make a quick getaway, I could. Um it was it was all it was really nice. Um, they had a lot of pictures of my daughter.
Um, I didn't see her dad, but then again, I wasn't trying to either. Um, I stayed for a little bit, but I didn't stay for the whole thing. My anxiety got too high and I had to go.
>> Birth. Mom went to Anna's funeral in disguise.
Why the hell would that be necessary though? Because of the back child support thing.
>> And what? Um, tell me a little bit about the funeral. What was said about about Anna at the funeral?
>> They just talked about how um she was a great kid and um she did really well in school. She wanted to join the military.
Um she uh she had a boating license before she was able to get her driver's license.
Do you know anything about the suspect in this case? Um, and I say suspect not because police have said it. It's the It's the 16-year-old stepbrother. Do you know anything about the stepbrother and the dynamic between Anna and him?
>> No. No. Because I didn't even know that Tabitha and Christopher had gotten a divorce. I didn't even know he remarried.
Like I said, Christopher and I do not talk whatsoever. and he made it extremely difficult for me to even have a relationship with my daughter. And the last time I seen my daughter, um, he again made me look like a piece of [ __ ] So when I was getting on the airplane, I flipped him off and called him a few choice words I probably shouldn't have.
And he told my daughter that I was telling her that I was >> Yeah. you say like if she's using that gives the dad a lot of ammunition to attack her with, right? And who knows what's really going on though, but that's like the thing that's in someone's face. Okay, you're using you're on drugs and whatever if she was indeed.
That happens a lot >> talking to her. So at that point, Anna kind of stopped talking to me. So, um, I should >> Thank you for watching. Subscribe below and download our NewsNation app right now on >> Chris Quuomo.
Meatball Quomo. Everyone's favorite Quomo. Let's see if there's any more here. Anna Ker shocking claims and family speaks out. Oh, look at that.
Ashley Banfield back in her Ashley Banfield in her News Nation days.
>> Never knowing that Anna's body was stuffed under her own bed just feet away from him. She was covered in blankets and life jackets. A cleaning worker made the awful discovery the following morning.
>> And that is very true, Hoti. But if you're a parent though, how do you play it if the other parents use it? Do you say, "Well, you can't see her or him when they're using." Would that look like alienation to the outside world? I don't know. I would say each case needs to be taken individually, right? Or imagine someone's a drunk. Maybe that's more common. So, someone's a drunk. Are you going to let your kid go with a drunk parent, man or woman, mother, father? I wouldn't think so.
And then when they did it, the drunk parent doesn't get the kids. What do you want to bet? Some of them would say, "I'm being alienated from my kid." And they don't tell you the other part of the story. Well, actually, I was shitfaced and I was trying to pick them up. Oh, that's a little bit different, isn't it?
>> Me now with much more on all of this is Josh Boswell. He's a senior reporter for the daily.com. Josh, >> sweet Caroline from the land down under.
Shadow and I always grateful to see you and grateful for your support as well.
Breaking news. Sweet Carolines from Australia. So, thank you very much for the super chat. Sweet Caroline. Sweet Caroline inspired me the other day because she had said, "Did you say Christmas? You say Christmas. You always invite some homeless people into your home for Christmas. That's pretty cool of you to do, sweet Caroline. It's always good to have a generous heart.
So, Nanny, Australia, Sweet Caroline and Annie are all good in my book. Thank you again, sweet Caroline.
Uh, you know, I keep wondering, it's such a mystery as to how this young girl died and what the condition of her body was when it was discovered by the cleaning crew. Do we have any information at all on how she died, cause of death, or the manner in which she was discovered?
>> No, that is one part of this that remains a real mystery. And you know, it's worth pointing out that the FBI has not declared that this is a murder and they haven't said that she was killed.
You know, they just her body was found.
She was found dead. We don't know what exactly she died of and the coroner has not released any details about the cause of death yet.
Then just, you know, speaking of this surveillance video and the patterns of who walked into that room and when and who walked out of that room, do we know if Anna died in that room?
>> So that's what we can summize because what we've learned and my my colleague Ben Ashford on my team at Daily Mail has done some fantastic reporting on this.
he got from sources close to the family and a source who has been briefed on the investigation that there is CCTV footage that it shows Anna going back into that room and never coming out again and then her body was discovered. So, we can deduce from that that she was she died in that room. Um, we've got the the biological brother and then the stepbrother coming into the room. But there is also another very disturbing allegation. I want to stress it's just an allegation at this point, but again from that ex-boyfriend, he was speaking after the memorial service that was held this evening in Titusville, Florida, her hometown. And he was saying that he had spoken to the younger brother, the biological brother, after all this had happened. And what that 14-year-old had told him was that he had heard shouting, screaming, uh what sounded like furniture being thrown around. he tried to get back into the room and the stepbrother blocked his way and told him to leave. Um, so that's an extra development here that kind of adds a a nuance to this that there was perhaps some conflict going on there. But again, this has not been verified and and this is just the ex-boyfriend saying what he was told allegedly by the younger biological brother.
So, if we're to believe what the ex-boyfriend uh says he was told by this younger biological brother, this confrontation, the yelling, the screaming um and the blocking of of not being able to get back into his room, this happened prior right prior to the death or days before or what was the timeline of of that confrontation?
The timeline for this, according to that ex-boyfriend, Josh Tu, that was the night that she went into the cabin and never emerged. What we have from the coroner in Miami is the date of death being declared at 11:00 a.m. the next morning, but that doesn't seem to be when she actually died. It seems like she may have died at some point during that night of November 6th. She certainly didn't show up for breakfast uh the next morning, November 7th.
That's when the family was alerted to her being missing something.
>> All right, let's see what Tony Bruski has to say because this is more up to date. This will be the last one to watch.
This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brussi and Robin Green.
Let's talk about this case. Anna Kempner was eight.
>> Ah, what we have here, sweet Caroline, thank you very much for this. I have noticed on the channel that if you missed the live show and view it later, you can hype the video. Well, that's a very good suggestion for people. Sweet Caroline, I didn't know that either. So, now people know GI Joe as they say. So, this will help pay for soyf free hoodie snacks for Shadow. He is very concerned about his hormones and testosterone. We don't want him to have to watch clvicular to start looks maxing again.
So, sweet Caroline, thank you so much.
Everyone else, likes are free. So is subscribing. So is telling 10 friends.
And as always, thank you all for the support. Shadow and I are very grateful.
18 years old, a high school senior in Titusville, Florida. In November of 2025, she boarded a Carnival cruise ship with her blended family. The fun ships, her dad, Christopher, her stepmother Shantel, her grandparents, and Shantel's two kids from the previous marriage, including a 16-year-old stepbrother named Timothy Hudson. Anna and Timothy weren't bloodrelated. They were part of the blended family. Shantel is Timothy's biological mother and Anna's stepmother.
Pay attention to the roles of people here because it gets confusing.
>> Say one more time. One more time again.
Okay, Shantel is Timothy's biological mother and Anna's stepmother. So, she's the mother of the alleged killer, the 16-year-old. Uh, she's married to Anna's father. On that cruise, Anna and Timothy were placed in a cabin together without the parents. Anna was found dead under her bed, wrapped in a blanket covered with life preservers. Timothy Hudson has since been charged as an adult in federal court with first-degree murder and aggravated SA crimes in connection with her death. He's pled not guilty.
But today, we're not here to talk about the criminal case. We're here to talk about what happened inside this family afterward and before because the court filings tell a story that raises questions a jury will never be asked to answer. Joining us to discuss, psychotherapist Siobhan Scott. Um, Siobhan, I I want to uh to set the table here with the family structure, and I know I just kind of went over it. You got Shantel Hudson, Timothy's biological uh mother here. She's also Anna Kempner's stepmother. She's married to Anna's father, Christopher Kempner. They are still together today after Anna was found dead on that ship. Court filings show that Shantel and Christopher expelled Timothy from their household immediately. Okay, not a bad move. If you got the guy that's accused of essaying and killing the the daughter of of your new husband and it's your son, probably not a good idea to have him in the same house as the other kids. Uh neither of them, however, have allegedly seen them since. Timothy's biological father, Thomas Hudson. Shantel's ex-husband, put a a text exchange into the court record where he wrote, "I kept my mouth shut when you told me that you can't jeopardize your marriage for helping your son."
Okay.
So, that's what his mother said. I can't jeopardize my marriage to help my son.
That's pretty shitty of her to say.
>> Interesting uh take, but it does somewhat track with some of the uh testimony that we had seen in family court from Shantel and her distancing herself from her own son. Um it doesn't necessarily also read like a mother horrified by what her son allegedly did.
It reads like a mother who has assessed what was standing or that what standing by him was actually going to cost her.
And >> they know it was the son because they saw the son going into the room. There was no one else in the room and that's when the crime was committed. So from the looks of it, because of the cameras, there was no one else that could have been >> and decide that it wasn't worth it in my opinion. Um, it's an interesting dynamic that we're seeing right now. Parents walking away not out of disgust, but are they walking away out of self-preservation or is it pure disgust?
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how I would be processing this as a parent if I were in this sort of a dynamic of a situation. But I do find it rather odd the sheer whitewashing or not white, but just washing him out of the family. She's still with the dad and the son's off to the wolves basically. I I I don't know.
It feels weird to me. Everybody grieavves and deals with this sort of sort of [ __ ] differently. There's no how to deal with your son murdering your stepdaughter for dummies book at Walden Books. Uh so I don't know how one really processes this, but what's your take here? What is your take on on the dynamics of this family of essentially he's dead to me? Um, >> it's it's super complicated. Super complicated. And and yeah, to really weigh in accurately, we need to know a lot more about the history and the, you know, the relationships. Um, I have seen teenage boys do terrible things, rape, murder. Um, as we know, they can murder their parents. I mean, we don't know what has this family been through with this young guy. Um, and we still think of a 16-year-old as a kid. They can be the size of a full-g grown man and pretty scary. And I've seen 16-year-old boys beat their mothers and you know >> what we got here more. Sweet Shadow says, "Thank you so much." Sweet Caroline. Hello there. Our precious Shadow. You hear that? Shadow. Sweet Caroline's always here to support you.
And Shadow always appreciates it. And Shadow said also we got to start paying it forward more. We did do that the other day with Melly.
Ruth saw that in the chat. But paying it forward is a good thing. The what would you call it? Prosperity mentality. Sweet Caroline has a prosperity mentality and Shadow and I appreciate it. So, thank you so much, sweet Caroline.
>> Just terrible, terrible things.
Murdering another family member is an abs. I mean, it's mind-boggling, you know, that people have to try and adjust to how do we cope with this?
>> So, I can understand. Okay, Annie, we know that name in this chat, don't we, Shadow? You see her? No one can see it because I'm blocking it. Okay, Annie, we know her.
And still loving your son, but saying, I just emotionally have to disengage from this and I have to I have to, you know, you you want the best for him. Um, but on the other hand, it could be psychological preservation for her to have some distance and say, "I I don't want to attend a trial. Um, I'm just not up to trying to manage this anymore."
And so, it could be just a survival strategy for her.
>> And I don't know, I always put myself, how would I handle something like this?
A little hard to imagine.
>> Yeah, I it is.
>> Yeah, we did that thought experiment yesterday. And that's why I'm curious about your your take on this, Siobhan.
So, say this because I'm curious about the history of the accused, you know, Timothy's behavior prior to this. If the parents reaction is indicative of that in any way. So, let's remove any legal counsel the parents were given and just take it from the face value of all right uh Timothy's accused of killing the stepsister parents kick him out and I just as I was looking up he's living with the uncle right now supposedly.
>> Yeah. So based on that fact data we have is that because again my thought experiment was if this was a oneoff and a spike from the norm that they hadn't seen before as opposed to hey this has been a long growing trend and problem area for us. Um which which way are you seeing us? Um >> I wonder if they don't know what that boyfriend said. Do they not know that they were warned about this? the dad was >> well >> if any from one small data set >> yeah right my guess is that there has been some pretty aberant behavior you know because you don't usually move from just being a normal kid with normal interest and activities to murdering your stepsister and then all the other allegations that you know he's been aggressive with her um yeah made her feel threatened before and who knows what they've tried um to intervene that just hasn't worked. And so my guess is it's not a one-off just because people usually don't just go from normal to murder, right?
>> Um and they may just not have felt like they had a lot of options. And and I think I just go back to you can still love your kid but not be up to handling it anymore. And just >> And that's a good point, too. I mean, parents are not always going to be equipped to handle a problem child like Timothy in this case, McKenzie in other cases, right? That that case. But that being said, I just think in this case, knowing what you know, you just don't leave them in a room together on a cruise.
Like, that's just careless to me. You don't of all the of all the mistakes, that seems like a pretty big mistake.
And I think I heard they were drinking, too. like and that's like even worse, right? You like they had an access to booze as well. So, I don't like it.
Shadow doesn't like it either.
>> Just just feel overwhelmed and threatened and that it's not good for the other kids and it's like we just need him separate from us and we need some space and distance.
>> Yeah. because my thought experiment on it was again so so definitely on the kids side this was an arc you know this wasn't just a one-off um from everything we're seeing and and again like you said but I was curious about assessing the parents awareness of this arc as well through this through the optic of their actions because if this was a if they didn't know of anything else going beforehand and all of a sudden again let's place ourselves in this we all have kids what would your reaction be like you said Siobhan me, I'd be I'd be in disbelief at first. I'd be like, "What the hell's going on?" I I'd get closer for a period of time as I'm trying to understand what made them do this. This isn't you. This isn't this is this I don't get it. You know, you you'd be you'd just be deeply disturbed and and what I mean just see my just like this same reaction. You get closer to try to figure out as opposed to the final straw of like I've had it. Mhm. So that's >> I'm I'm I'm finding everybody's actions here and dare I say performance in some of this rather troubling. Um because at the beginning of all this, if these allegations are true, there's outside sources, her ex-boyfriend, the ex-boyfriend's father saying they warned the family about this kid and nothing was done. Okay. And and nothing was done.
>> Um if that's what happened. Um, so they could Shantel and and and Anna's father could have been saying, "Oh [ __ ] like the chickens have finally come home to roost. We've been warned about this all this time, and now look how how out of control this got."
>> I'm actually kind of surprised how easy Tony is being on the parents in this situation.
>> I would have thought he'd be a little harder. Maybe the parents, the parent in him is maybe thinking about it from a different lens perhaps. But I'm surprised. I'm surprised.
This has gotten And I'm sure if you're a parent, you're looking at that going, there's so much more we should have done.
>> Yeah.
>> But didn't Now, I'm not saying that makes them killers. I'm not saying it makes them responsible for their their crazy son's actions if he did this, >> but it certainly is not a good look. I mean, it certainly is is some Oh, another great message here by Sweet Caroline. I feel the need to say this.
Thank you so much for this. By the way, sometimes I feel uncomfortable with super chats. I feel like I am flaunting my financial position. Please know that they are always from us all in gratitude for this wonderful channel. Well, Shadow and I couldn't have said it better ourselves. Actually, sweet Caroline. And that's why you have a a giving mentality, right? not a selfishly giving mentality but from everybody and I think everyone can learn from that right chat everyone can learn from Miss Kim's or Miss Kim sweet Caroline's wisdom here so Shadow and I are always grateful anything you ever need sweet Caroline you let us know and that goes for the rest of the flock of black sheep too I'm sure they'd be happy to help you as well thing that you wouldn't necessarily, I think, want to hang your hat on or have following you around. And I'm finding the actions after the fact, going onto social media and posting words like, you know, they're looking to for nails in the coffin on Timothy and things of that nature. A bit much for a family affair.
Like, why are we projecting this [ __ ] out into the world? I mean, everybody, I guess, does now, but I I don't, but but a lot of people do. It seems performative. It seems I'm going to tell you who I am in this, not what the evidence or my track record shows you I am in this. I'm going to make a stand.
And maybe they are make maybe this is the wakeup call they needed so this chaos doesn't ensue the rest of their family or in that house. But it the other lesson is right folks that when you have it, it's good to be generous.
They say money is like a currency because it's supposed to flow like a current. I try to remember that >> just feels performative to me. And again, I could be completely off. Maybe there is a mixture of some performance going on here for self-preservation at the same time. Grief and loss and and hate and anger. It's probably a bit of everything that's going on.
>> Um, without a doubt.
>> But >> it just I don't know. It it feels a bit off. Let's get to the the area of um the fact that they're still married. I mean, I know they just got married and they were hearing some of the uh the wording here of uh to protect the marriage and the relationship and all that and they want nails in the coffin for the son that's you know few days ago they were the [ __ ] three amigos and everything's fine and dandy. Um the the the fact that that that this has shifted so dramatically so quickly with these people um and a full reversal on their own child within a matter of weeks. I mean what what flips a parent like that? I mean it I don't know. I I'm just I'm I'm baffled by the whole damn thing. Yeah, there's a lot that you know my guess would be these folks are not terribly psychologically sophisticated and putting putting those two kind way to say it, right?
>> I love your statements. You know that that that's technical for nutter.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Poor poor judgment. Obviously, as everybody has said, putting your your teenage girl in the same room with a problematic, aggressive teenage boy, what what was that about? You know, a very bad judgment, this might not have happened. Um, if if that decision had not been made and it can be hard for people to sort out loyalties in step families. I mean, that's kind of a consistent theme of, you know, do you love your husband more? Do you love your kids more? And of course, most people say you stay loyal to your kids no matter what. Not everybody is sophisticated enough to to, you know, make those decisions clearly. And yeah, it's just got to be this huge whirlwind of disturbing emotions. I I can't imagine what these people are. All right, what do we have here?
Mel, thank you so much for the super chat, Mel. I'll give a super chat for our kids. Don't let them get by with little things. Nothing harsh, but take the phone away. Won't hurt them or all internet for 48 hours. I can agree with that, Mel. Give for our kids. Don't let them get by with little things. Nothing harsh, but take the phone away. Yes.
Consequences. consequences for the kids are needed. You can't in the worst case scenario let your kids turn into a McKenzie a McKenzie Sharilas or I mean and let's face it also I mean what Timothy did here is worse than McKenzie Sharilas. The difference is with McKenzie I think we just know more about her so she's been given more opportunity to make herself not look good. But given the same opportunity, perhaps Timothy would do the same thing. But as of now, I mean, what Timothy did is way worse than what McKenzie did. Not that it's a competition, but you know, to the family members of Dominic, Davon, and now this girl Anna, not going to help. Not going to help. I mean, dead is dead. So, thank you so much, Mel Shadow, and I really appreciate your support.
feeling like right now, >> you know, and I just I'm I'm sorry, Tony. Just a quick interjection of one simple thing could have mitigated bes I mean, there's so many things that could have Why didn't they just put her her in their room?
>> You know, I know you're on a cruise, but you know what? I mean, just get over your hormones for for a night and just >> Well, she didn't choose that. She apparently had the option to go sleep with grandma and grandpa, but she chose not to. That's the story they're telling that that the option is available and she chose not to. controlling narratives is the only thing that's popping in my mind as when you were saying you know what you're saying leading into this Tony >> and and it feels like Anna's dad is controlling a lot of the narrative in my opinion on social media the statements that are being made >> and him speaking for her for the wife for Shantel in in a lot of things as well which I I got to say I don't know how the hell I mean from a psychological perspective how a marriage survives this >> um or or and I don't even know like how you work through this at this moment in time. It's a brand it's a fairly new marriage. Um, this just happened and you're still together. That's the part that kind of also shocks me. Not that you need to go get divorced or but I don't know, there's two very diametrically opposing things going on here. And and a mother here and a father here and and and and maybe some space, maybe some time to individually handle this and work through this might be the healthiest choice. I don't know how you do this as a group effort because I think you're going to have diametrically opposing views on some things just because of the roles that they play.
Being the mother of the alleged murder, being the father of the victim.
>> Again, it seems controlling. It seems chaotic and maybe that's exactly what it is. But maybe they don't know any different either. Um there could be other factors at play here as to why everybody's still together. Not that I'm rooting like go get divorced after your son killed your daughter like but again it all just feels it feels like the wagons are converging and it's not necessarily to get to the bottom of this or to other than let's bury the sun and and get all the blame onto him. Um it it just seems like there's not of a lot of accountability happening over here for the recipe that made little Timmy to begin with.
>> Right. Right. Yeah. This would be a fascinating one to have.
>> Oh, we got one more here from Mel. Thank you for this, Mel. My child didn't get a phone for a long time. I only did it to keep tabs on her. I have I have two now, basically.
Okay, I get you. I mean, it's got to be dangerous for a parent these days, right? You got to be People are concerned about what their kids have to do, like what they're doing online, etc., right? It's got to be terrifying, especially considering how many hooligans are online as well. So, but I'm sure Mel here, she's on it. So, I appreciate it. Shadow appreciates it, too.
And I think it's good. I think it's it's one of those things where they might not like it at the time, but looking back, I think they'll be grateful that they actually lived in the present as opposed to on TikTok, right? That's how I would see it. So, thank you again, Mel Shadow, and I appreciate it. That's going towards soyf free hoodie snacks, by the way, >> of everybody in family therapy, you know, um, and try to look at the dynamics. Are there dependency issues going on with Shantel, his mom, right?
>> Want to get the names right. Yeah. Um, is she feeling really dependent on this man? And, you know, what is their relationship dynamics like? How have they agreed or disagreed? Because I I'm guessing they have not as step families don't always agree on how to handle kids with problems. And yeah, I'm I would guess that it's not smooth sailing at their house. It's got to be >> crazy doesn't happen in a vacuum.
>> No. And and then you also have the custody dispute going on between Shantel and her ex-husband. And the ex-husband's like, "This is a crazy house. I don't want any of my kids over there."
Basically, >> and so she's trying to watch what she's saying. and they're both trying to watch what they're saying and it's coming out in court filings, but none of it is like all too positive about Timmy. It's just like Timmy's the devil. Go away. Um, it's I I I don't know. This is this is I guess just a look into chaos, >> but apparently the grandparents are defending Timmy. Correct.
>> Initially, yes, they've been saying that they they can't judge I don't I'm just paraphrasing here, but they can't judge what they don't know, basically. Let's talk about the uncle for a second. Why the [ __ ] does the uncle want to take him in? Yeah. I mean, that's another weird part of all this. So, so mom and and and stepdad have basically written him off.
his biological dad still is in the picture and apparently behind him or at least being a a father figure to him.
Not necessarily saying he's, you know, believes he's much about, but apparently he's staying with the uncle. The hell is that?
>> I mean, should he be imprisoned after first degree after murder charges? Yes.
this man should no longer be free working at the landscaping business of the uncle. But again, that's another weird dynamic of this, like why the uncle and and why with with this sort of a a charge against you, how is that the best setting for this young man?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Not something I would vote for. Maybe my G just making a wild guess about the uncle. He he may be the one that sees himself whether it's true or not. He may see himself as the solid voice in the family who can come in and rescue and do something to fix. That would be my guess. Stepping up. Just trying to be a person that steps up.
>> And maybe that's what it is. I I know I'm not trying to disparrage the uncle in any way, shape, or form. Again, it's just it's more chaotic dynamics and it seems every every stone you unturn, every page you turn in this book, it's more chaos, which which I think it probably explains as to why we're here today talking about them.
>> Yeah, it looks like he is living in um and working at the family business. I just he has not much on him. That's what he's doing on the side is just looking it all up. Can you imagine being like a client of a landscaping company and you know what's going on in this community and then he shows up to like put in your zenas.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like Yeah. I don't think so. Um he's going to have to get off my property right about >> Did they Did that land I'm not even going to say what they just might have popped over from being in Arizona.
Right.
>> Jesus.
>> Now it's uh it's uh your thoughts in the comments section. Substack and YouTube.
Uh feel free to weigh in there. We'd love to continue the conversation there.
>> Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and >> All right.
Well, that's a good place to end off for today here. We got a good baseline of this case. We'll see if we go over more of it, but um I'm more curious now about the backgrounds of her mother, um the father, the stepmother, to see what's going on in that dynamic.
He always does, Snoop. He always does.
Oh, Rooster has a message. Let me guess.
Is it like the video?
Smash the like button, he says. That's a damn good message, isn't it, sweet Caroline?
So, thank you very much for the super chat, Sweet Caroline. And like Rooster said, make sure you like the video.
Because likes are free, so is subscribing, and so is telling everyone you know about the flock of black sheep.
Those are all good things here, right?
Any topic ideas Sweet Caroline would ever want, definitely let me know.
No, all good. Mel, we're probably going to wrap this up one for tonight here.
This is the third stream of the day. But we've had a lot of good support and Shadow is very grateful for the soyfree hoodie snacks. Of course, you're guilty says her biological toothless. Oh dear.
Methane ass failed her too. People with blah blah blah.
Well, addiction is a a terrible thing.
Addiction is a terrible thing. And yeah, it is their responsibility to handle it though, right? I do agree with that. Not easy, but it is their responsibility.
Have a great night, Linda.
All right, folks. Yeah, I'm getting tired here, too. So, I do appreciate all the support as does Shadow. So, Linda and Rooster and you're guilty and Natty Goat and D and Autumn and Snoop and Mel. I think this is the first time we've seen Mel in here, is it not? The flock of black sheep should welcome Mel.
Mel's mom, not M. Little's remember that. We appreciate the support. Mel Shadow and I don't forget we are like elephants. Shhatty Kathy, you have a great night.
Miss Kim and Laura. Laura's not here for this one, but she was here for the other one. Lindsay. Lindsay Shadow's mom, by the way.
Dana, you have a great night.
I knew you would. Nanny goat. Nanny goat.
Uh, what was what was your name before then, Mel?
Write that down, Dana. We'll see if there's some good info on that. Kansas mom murders.
I might invite Dr. Z to talk about McKenzie. We'll see.
if she's available to. She might not.
I'm the lone black sheep who arrives late every time. Yes, you do, Lindsay.
Where are you normally?
How mysterious.
Well, write that down, too. Rooster Macy Lathers. We'll take a look.
We shall see.
All right, folks.
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. So, thanks for all the support, everybody. Shadow and I really appreciate it.
And everyone, have a great rest of your night.
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