Bitcoin Life Insurance Explained (Meanwhile Interview)

[00:00:00]How else can [music] you turn 10 Bitcoin into 20 Bitcoin without buying 10 more Bitcoin? And you do it with life insurance because we generate yield. We generate 2% per year every year in Bitcoin denominated yield.

[00:00:12]>> Wow.

[00:00:12]>> This is singularly the best place to put your Bitcoin for the long term and it just happens to [music] be life insurance. Life insurance is the original huddle. But when you put the original hutddle life insurance together with Bitcoin, which is this new age hutddle, it actually goes together like peanut butter and jelly in the sense that this is the perfect vehicle for Bitcoin. So your Bitcoin is safely held in custody. Meanwhile, the insurance company pays for that custody. [music] And this is like the premier version of third party cold storage.

[00:00:41]>> Yeah, it does. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:00:43]>> You're going to get yield and you can borrow against your policy and then leave the Bitcoin to your family one day. I think that Bitcoin is going to go multiples higher in our lifetime. And if you could leave them more Bitcoin than you even had in the first place because you use life insurance, then what's better than that?

[00:01:00][music] >> Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Deep Dive Podcast. I'm your host Rachel Wolfson. Today I've got a great interview lined up for you. I'm speaking with Jason Lieowitz. He is head of business development at Meanwhile, which is a Bitcoin life insurance company. So, in this interview, we talk all about Bitcoin life insurance. Before getting started with today's interview, I also want to take the time to remind you guys to smash that like button, hit subscribe, be sure to stay in touch because I've got so much more great content coming your way and I don't want you to miss anything. I also want to take a minute to thank Chat Room Podcast for letting me film today's interview at this beautiful podcasting space in Miami Beach. Big shout out to them. If you want to learn more about Chat Room, you can find out more in the show notes.

[00:01:47]Okay, without further ado, let's get started with today's interview. Hey Jason, how's it going?

[00:01:52]>> Good. How you doing?

[00:01:53]>> Doing well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me here in person in beautiful Miami. So, we are going to chat a little bit about Bitcoin life insurance and what Meanwhile is doing.

[00:02:03]Before getting started with those questions though, I want you to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in the crypto sector.

[00:02:10]>> Sure. Um, I have been in the crypto space since 2013. Uh when I first heard about Bitcoin, uh I was on Wall Street at the time. Uh the light bulb went off for me about this um concept of basically attaching money to an email and being able to send it anywhere in the world instantly and for free. And that resonated with me. Things were going viral online at the time. Think like Gangdom style video and all that stuff. And things like overnight can explode with virality. And I was think money could go viral. Maybe it's going to catch on. May as well invest in some.

[00:02:43]we'll see how it goes. And sure enough, I bought in mid 2013 and then I saw it go to $1,200 and then crash back down to $300 and I was like, what is going on?

[00:02:53]And uh realized that it wasn't going away. Um started a crypto fund in 2014, joined Credit Swiss to build out their blockchain team and cryp their digital asset team 2016 to 2020. started my own consulting firm in 2020 that helped high net worth individuals and family offices go from traditional capital markets asset classes into the crypto space safely and securely. Ended up selling that to a fund in 2023 and uh then I discovered Bitcoin denominated life insurance in 2024. When I realized what it was, I quickly got my own policy and then joined the team shortly after and uh I'm the head of business development at Meanwhile, which is a Bermuda based life insurance company that is fully on the Bitcoin standard.

[00:03:41]>> Okay, wonderful. So, first of all, very impressive background. You are definitely an OG in the crypto sector.

[00:03:48]Let's talk a little bit about Meanwhile and Bitcoin life insurance.

[00:03:52]>> Bitcoin life insurance, Bitcoin denominated whole life insurance. It's a mouthful. Um, but I think that what you're going to realize is that this is singularly the best place to put your Bitcoin for the long term and it just happens to be life insurance. What I mean by that is because when you are on the Bitcoin standard, what that truly means is everything you do is in Bitcoin. If you actually look at Meanwhile's financials on our website, our externally audited financials are a table of numbers with B's in front of each number, not dollar signs. first company to ever do that. What that means from a life insurance perspective is that you're going to pay your premium in Bitcoin. Your death benefit pays out in Bitcoin. And because it's whole life insurance, not term life insurance, it's an investment vehicle that you can borrow from. And you're going to be borrowing from Bitcoin. And it's all taxree, meaning you can borrow and monetize and sell and spend your Bitcoin at higher prices if the price of Bitcoin goes up in in the future and pay zero in capital gains tax.

[00:04:52]>> Wow. Yeah, that's impressive. Let's break that down a little bit. So, Bitcoin life insurance. Why would a Bitcoiner need a product like this and how would they get started?

[00:05:03]>> Life insurance in general is a product that has a lot of tax benefits baked into it. The reason whole life insurance specifically is extremely tax advantageous is because first of all, life insurance has been around for hundreds of years, over 300 years. The governments of the western world want their citizens to have life insurance if they can afford it because it protects you, it protects your family and it creates less dependency on the government for welfare for handouts. And so if you can afford it, they want you to buy it. And the incentive mechanisms, the levers that they use to try to incentivize people to buy it is that everything in life insurance is taxree.

[00:05:36]Your assets go in, they get a yield, they grow taxree.

[00:05:41]You can borrow from your life insurance policy completely taxree. no capital gains or income tax. And ultimately when you die and you pass on assets to your beneficiaries, that is taxfree. And if you can afford it, get it. It's it's great. But the problem with traditional life insurance is it's on the dollar standard. And as we all know in the crypto world, the US dollar and all fiat currencies have always experienced a lot of inflation. Meaning the purchasing power of the dollar is going down every single year by a lot. I mean, look at the price of eggs. A dozen eggs was like $10 not too long ago. And if you had the choice of leaving your family a million dollars or 10 Bitcoin when you die, we obviously would choose 10 Bitcoin because we know that a million dollars might be a lot today. But 10, 20, 30, 40 years into the future, it's really not going to buy as nearly as much as it does today. Whereas, if you're bullish on Bitcoin, the price of Bitcoin, we believe relative to the dollar or any currency, we believe it's going to go higher and higher. And the purchasing power of Bitcoin will go up, not down over time. And so, this is a way to grow your Bitcoin in Bitcoin terms, get yield in Bitcoin, not dollar terms, and then ultimately leave more Bitcoin to your family when you pass than you had in the beginning. For example, let's say a 30-year-old uh has wants to get a life insurance policy. Meanwhile, 10 bitcoin in premium gives them about 20 bitcoin in death benefit, roughly speaking, depending on your age and health and all that other underwriting criteria. But how else can you turn 10 bitcoin into 20 bitcoin without buying 10 more bitcoin? And you do it with life insurance because we generate yield. We generate 2% per year every year in Bitcoin denominated yield.

[00:07:25]>> Wow. It sounds like a great product. Um, the question is, and as you know, because you are an OG Bitcoiner, a lot of Bitcoiners like to hodddle and they like to hold and they typically keep their Bitcoin on a ledger or a hardware wallet and they don't really touch it.

[00:07:43]So, I want to know how this product has been viewed by Bitcoiners. Have they been happily able to put their Bitcoin with meanwhile or are they hesitant?

[00:07:57]>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, whenever you're going to send your Bitcoin anywhere, you better be very careful.

[00:08:02]You better do due diligence on who you're sending it to and what they're going to do with your Bitcoin because we've seen a lot of scams in the past.

[00:08:10]And it's important to understand exactly what's going on when you invest or dispose of or send your Bitcoin out.

[00:08:18]Life insurance. Actually my CEO has coined saying this life insurance is the original huddle. It is the original way to turn to store money for generations for your money or assets to outlive you taxfree but added benefit. Well, when you put the original huddle life insurance together with Bitcoin which is this new age huddle it actually goes together like peanut butter and jelly in the sense that this is the perfect vehicle for Bitcoin. Why? Because this is how you get your Bitcoin to outlive you to last for decades and decades generations. It's a way for you to be able to monetize your Bitcoin through these policy loans without paying capital gains tax. So, you can sell some Bitcoin at a million dollars a coin one day and not pay cap gains and ultimately leave whatever's left over after net of loans from the death benefit to your beneficiaries, whoever they may be.

[00:09:04]Maybe people, maybe a charity, maybe an entity. It's totally up to you. In life insurance, there's three primary um parties. There's the owner, the insured, and the beneficiary. The owner can be an individual, it can be a trust, it can be an entity. The owner has the Bitcoin, they're going to pay the premium and they have access to these tax-free policy loans. Then you have the insured.

[00:09:26]The way we do it at meanwhile is we ensure people between 18 and 65. The younger and healthier you are, the bigger the death benefit ratio relative to the amount of premium that you're going to pay. And lastly, you have the beneficiary. They're the ones who file the claim when the insured passes away.

[00:09:41]Okay. The beneficiary can be a person, can be a group of people like all your children or all your grandchildren in equal splits. Can be a trust. It can be a charity. And that's primarily how you think in generations. It's like, okay, I have my Bitcoin. It's on a ledger. If I pass suddenly tomorrow, do my loved ones know how to a where my ledger is, b how to access it? the passwords, the PIN, the seed phrase, the private keys, just all of it, where to go with your Bitcoin, how to sell it, what the cost basis is if you're asked, like all these different dynamic questions that are involved in Bitcoin custody. And if the answer is no to some or all of these questions, then in all likelihood, your Bitcoin is going to die with you. Mhm.

[00:10:24]>> And if you want to be able to pass on your Bitcoin to your family one day or to your loved ones one day and not have it die with you, then you have to figure out a way to make sure that your Bitcoin can outlive you. And you know, personally speaking, I'm married. I have two young kids. It wasn't until I had my kids that I really started to worry about all my crypto accounts. Um, you know, being in the space since 2013, I've accumulated a lot of different wallets with a lot of different a lot of different exchange accounts and you name it, like 40, 50 different accounts, email address, password, two, 2FA, private keys, seed phrases, like all of it. And it's written down somewhere safe on paper. But will my wife or kids be able to really figure it out if I were to die like tomorrow? Maybe. And that's not good enough for me. And when I discovered Bitcoin Life Insurance, I was like, "Well, I can put some of my Bitcoin into this vehicle." It goes to Meanwhile, we custody at Anchorage, we custody at Coinbase, the two biggest, best, most regulated, licensed cyber security custodians on the planet. ETFs trust them, wealth funds trust them. You can't pick a better third party custodian than them in our opinion and in my personal opinion. So, your Bitcoin is safely held in custody. Meanwhile, the insurance company pays for that custody. And this is like the premier version of third party cold storage, you know, airgapped custody that Coinbase and Anchorage offer. And ultimately, you're going to get yield and you can borrow against your policy and then leave the Bitcoin to your family one day. And to me, that makes all the sense in the world.

[00:12:03]>> Yeah, it does. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:12:04]And I actually wanted to ask you about borrowing against your Bitcoin because that's a pretty unique feature. I mean, I think it's unique. So, is that something that happens after after over time or can you sign up with Meanwhile and all of a sudden you're able to borrow against your Bitcoin?

[00:12:21]>> In the US, uh we have what's called a 10 pay whole life product. What that means is you're going to pay your premiums over 10 years in equal annual installments. What makes this different besides the fact that we're in Bitcoin than traditional life insurance is the fact that Bitcoin's a scarce asset with finite supply. In traditional life insurance, you typically go to a carrier, and we are our own carrier, but you go to a carrier like a Chub or Mass Mutual or Northwestern Mutual, and you say, "I want a policy. I want a million-doll policy on myself." They'll crunch numbers based on your age, health, sex, other criteria, and they'll dictate to you an amount of premium in dollars every month or every year that you have to pay. And of course, there's baked in fees and expenses in that premium. And it goes in whole life into a mutual fund with like a guaranteed growth rate of 5ish% per year every year and it grows taxfree. And in time that mutual fund like it goes up 5 10 15 let's say it's up 30% in time and you want to borrow out of it. You can borrow without paying that 30% capital gains appreciation. Whereas any other account you have for the most part that's up 30% and you want some cash, you're probably going to pay some form of capital gains tax. And so life insurance is taxfree.

[00:13:35]And let's say you borrow 100,000 out of that. Uh your new death benefit just nets down from a million to 900,000 like an interest rate of 5ish% that you would have to pay on that loan. But you never have to repay that the loan and you can let that interest acrue and it'll all net out of that original a million dollar number. Whatever is left over after you pass net of the loan and the interest goes to your family. Bitcoin life insurance. We had to change a few things around mainly due to Bitcoin scarcity. So you can't come to meanwhile and say I want a million dollar policy because first off we're going to say Bitcoin only. Let's say call it a 10 Bitcoin policy. But then we're going to crunch numbers and what dictate to you how much Bitcoin and premium you have to pay. Let's say it's six Bitcoin because you might say I don't have six Bitcoin.

[00:14:20]What are you talking about? I have four Bitcoin. We don't know how much Bitcoin anyone has. So we flip the whole concept upside down where you come to Meanwhile and say, "Hey, I have this amount of Bitcoin. What do I get for it?" We will then crunch numbers based on your age, health, sex, and smoking status and give you a death benefit ratio that you get relative to the amount of premium that you want to use. Let's say as as I said in that earlier example, 30-year-old 10 bitcoin, 20 in death benefit. Five bitcoin would be 10 in death benefit.

[00:14:48]The common uh math here is that it's a double for a 30-year-old. So you you do 20 bitcoin, it's a 40 death benefit. 10 is a 20, so on and so forth for that specific um person and that tier one health class, let's say. And so ultimately, you're in power here of how much Bitcoin in premium you want to send to meanwhile. Whatever number you decide, you're going to pay it over 10 years in equal annual installment. 10 bitcoin in total premium for 20 in death benefit. Well, you're going to pay one a year for 10 years and then you're done for life. If you want, you can just prepay it all up front, set it and forget it, and never have to make another payment again. Key here, there's no baked in fees or expenses because you're choosing your premium. You're not being told how much premium with this opaque structure of what are the fees and expenses in it. You you might say, you want to do 10 and then change your mind last minute. I'm only going to do eight. It's up to you. And what you then get is this growth of 2% per year every year. And then the ability to borrow from it in time. You can start borrowing after one year. And you get to borrow up to 90% of the surrender value or the cash value, however you want, whatever you want to call it. It's all the same thing, but up to 90% of that value. So it's in essence a 90% LTV loan that you never have to repay because it'll just net out of that 20 death benefit number.

[00:16:10]and it has a 3% interest rate on that loan, which is a very low interest rate relative to everything else in the industry or any industry.

[00:16:17]>> So, it's a lot of information. I mean, obviously really interesting. Um, sounds like a very good solution that you're providing. In terms of your customers, what are the average age and do these people have to be wealthy Bitcoin whales or are we talking about just like retail investors that might have one or two Bitcoin?

[00:16:37]>> The minimum size to get a policy is 0.25 25 bitcoin paid over 10 years. Think about that each year that's 0.025 bitcoin. So it's in total less than 25 grand at today's prices. Um so that's kind of retailesque for someone who's looking to put some bitcoin to work. And then on the bigger side we have institutions and entities that have big policies um that are trusted family trust or an irrevocable life insurance trust and IT. And so it sort of ranges the gamut. Um, we have 18y olds, 20 year olds that have policies. They're not going to pass away for like 60, 70, even 80 years. And so what we're in the business of meanwhile is making very long-term promises to people that in time, many, many years into the future, we will pass on your Bitcoin to whoever you want us to pass it to. For that to happen, we have to be very conservative in everything that we do. We have to make promises that we can deliver on.

[00:17:36]We're fully regulated and licensed in Bermuda by the Bermuda Monetary Authority. Bermuda is one of the insurance capitals of the world. Uh there's 12 over,200 different insurance companies in that small little island of Bermuda for good reason because the Bermuda Monetary Authority is considered one of the most credible regulators of the insurance industry on the planet.

[00:17:54]That's where we have our licenses. And um ultimately, you know, anyone who comes to us who wants to either store their Bitcoin, someone who like wants to get their Bitcoin to their family one day, someone who wants to spend their Bitcoin like a whale who wants to live off their Bitcoin for the rest of their life, or or someone close to retirement who has Bitcoin and wants to retire off their Bitcoin, and whatever's left over after their retirement, they want to pass to their family. These are the types of personas that come to us and we work with. Mhm. What about Bitcoin volatility? I mean, obviously the price is up, it's down. You know, we could see it go way down, we could see it go way up. So, how does that impact meanwhile >> in order to really understand our company and our product, you really have to think in Bitcoin? Because if you think in Bitcoin and realize that we're on the Bitcoin standard, there is no volatility when one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin, >> right? I know it's a cliche to say one bitcoin equals one bitcoin, but it tr I was thinking >> it truly is the case for us because as I said our our our financials are a table of numbers with bees in front of it. So whether Bitcoin is at $1,000 or a€,000 or 100,000 yen or whatever it might be is completely irrelevant at all points in time with regards to someone who has a policy with us or our company because we're in the business of growing Bitcoin in Bitcoin terms and allowing people to spend Bitcoin. And when, by the way, when you borrow against your policy, you're borrowing Bitcoin, not dollars.

[00:19:24]You might turn your Bitcoin into dollars and you'll get a new cost basis. If Bitcoin's up, you'll get a stepped up cost basis in that case. So therefore, it'll there will be no taxable event if your cost basis equals your sale price.

[00:19:35]But when you think in Bitcoin there's no volatility.

[00:19:38]>> Okay. So I'm wondering how easy is it?

[00:19:41]You know, let's say I am using meanwhile, I have Bitcoin life insurance and I pass away and that goes to my mom for instance. She's older than me. She's not as cryptosavvy. Um although my dad has learned a lot from me. So, but you know, how easy is that process for them to then work with meanwhile to get that life insurance in Bitcoin?

[00:20:05]>> As easy as it comes in the entire industry, and I'll tell you exactly why.

[00:20:08]And this is a one of the the unlocks for me and why I got it. We expect that beneficiaries will have not signed up for this. The owner of the policy, you or me or whoever cryptosavvy, we have Bitcoin, we understand Bitcoin life insurance, we want the yield, we want to be able to spend it, all that stuff. And then we die. and we named beneficiary who was your mom who is not cryptosavvy and all they have to know is that you had a policy with this company called meanwhile and all they have to do is reach out to us and say help because we expect beneficiaries will say I do not know what I'm doing I don't even know what Bitcoin is I thought it was big coin it's now I'm told it's Bitcoin like what is going on here what do I do with this >> right >> I don't want Bitcoin My life is in dollars. My club payments or my kids school payments, it's all in dollars.

[00:21:00]So, please help me get rid of this Bitcoin and get it and get rid of it and I don't know. We expect and anticipate that that is what h may happen in in certain scenarios with beneficiaries.

[00:21:11]And what we're going to do, meanwhile, by law, is help them help the beneficiaries hold their hand through the entire process of filing a claim and getting their assets, which by the way, get a new stepped up cost basis upon death. And if they don't want Bitcoin, we will help them get the Bitcoin into a wallet that is theirs and then liquidate the Bitcoin at one of our um liquidity providers that we work with.

[00:21:36]>> If that's what they want, if they want dollars, they'll ultimately get a wire in their account. It will have no fees or taxes or anything.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah. So, there's a lot of handholding.

[00:21:45]>> Has to be >> there has to be in order for >> it's like a concier service that you're signing up for for your beneficiaries.

[00:21:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, there has to be in order for Bitcoin to go mainstream and for a product like this to work, there has to be handholding. Otherwise, I can't imagine the problems that we meanwhile would run into.

[00:22:01]>> A lot of Zoom calls, a lot of inerson meetings, a lot.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah. question if you can answer it. Has any of the users of Meanwhile actually passed away?

[00:22:13]>> Not yet.

[00:22:14]>> Okay. I had to ask.

[00:22:16]>> We are We want to ensure people that will live long healthy lives. Okay.

[00:22:20]>> We're also young. We were founded in 2022. Okay.

[00:22:23]>> We were uh seated by Sam Alman from OpenAI and Northwestern Mutual.

[00:22:27]>> Nice. Then in subsequent fund rounds uh we raised money from Apollo, Bane Capital, Panta, Han Ventures, Wensus himself, Northwestern again. And so we have a lot of bigname investors, but because we're young and we're in the business of ensuring people that we believe are going to live long, healthy lives, we we haven't had a claim yet.

[00:22:46]>> Okay.

[00:22:46]>> But we're ready. And actually on that point, we're mandated by law to have at least 150% capital reserve ratio of assets to liabilities. We're currently over 400%. M >> so we are more than ready for any claims to be filed >> right and actually that's a really important point that meanwhile does regular audits that's what I I read about there you know it's audited and is that information public though >> it's on our website audits are public and on our website you go to the financial section at the bottom of our website see all of it you can see the 2024 one the 2025 one was just released um we try to do everything in our power to be as transparent as possible with our policyh holders and potential new clients because we're the adults in the room. We are all a lot of us are cryptogs. Um, a lot of us come from the life insurance industry. We are quite frankly sick of a lot of the scams and frauds in the crypto space that we've seen over in my in my 12 13 years in the space and others you not as long. Our goal is to build trust and ultimately like what you're signing up for is you're going to trust this company to outlive you, for your Bitcoin to outlive you. And so >> insurance companies have to be around for generations. And so that is exactly what we're building towards.

[00:24:04]>> Um that's why we are regulated and licensed and audited and have these capital reserve ratios that we publish.

[00:24:10]We're in the process of getting a credit rating with AM Best and S&P uh which we will make public as soon as we have it.

[00:24:17]We're excited for it. We have no volatility because one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin. And hopefully the ratings companies recognize that too because when you first go into these meetings, you assume that they're going to be like, "Oh, Bitcoin's so volatile." But when they really understand our business, there's no volatility.

[00:24:32]>> So there's a lot to it. But when you really start to think in Bitcoin, you realize like, wow, like this is a great place to hold my Bitcoin for the long term. It just happens to be life insurance and gets a lot of tax benefits.

[00:24:44]>> I want to get your thoughts because you've been in the industry for so long.

[00:24:48]Bitcoin has matured a lot from when you entered, right? What are your thoughts on that maturity and and do you think that that's a good thing? Do you think we're going to continue to see the sector mature moving forward? the fact that we have the biggest ETFs in history that are Bitcoin ETFs that Black Rockck is in the space, Fidelity, Morgan Stanley, Sovereign Wealth Funds, Central Banks, they're all custodying like Coinbase, Anchorage, and others. You have the micro strategies of the world which are amassing the most massive piles of Bitcoin and other digital asset treasury companies. Other companies and people just allocating to Bitcoin because they recognize that it is a non-s sovereign uncorrelated asset that has nothing to do with inflation and fiat currency devaluation. Um and so you know you see all this investment advice whether it comes from global macro fund managers or banks or other asset managers or financial adviserss saying you should have two or five or eight or 10% of your portfolio in Bitcoin among other assets equities fixed income real estate etc because it gives you these this diversity and it gives you this we call Bitcoin a highly convex asset because it has this asymmetric upside potential and so it's always to have an asset that has this longtail potential in your portfolio. Some people don't understand Bitcoin. They don't understand how this thing that we don't know who invented it has any value and it's not backed by anything. It has no intrinsic value. But when you really look at anything in the world that has a price to it, it's only worth what someone's willing to pay for it. Whether that's gold, whether that's your house on an island or your apartment on the 80th floor of a skyscraper. If no one wants it, it's worth zero. If everyone wants it, it has a high price tag. If you look at gold, intrinsic value, can't eat it in in the worst of times. You can't wear it to keep you warm. You can't live under it to keep, you know, shelter. Humans have ascribed a value to gold over time. I I believe it's valuable because we've ascribed a value to it. And I believe that everything that happened leading up to the moment of the internet was its own era. And now that we're in this internetworked age with the power of network connectivity, everything is different. And the concept of value is different. it. To me, it's proven by the fact that I see my two young kids who are so good at technology, whether it's their iPads or my iPhone or any type of technology in my Tesla and speaking to AI bots like voice bots. And to them, as they get older, what's going to have more value?

[00:27:37]Something digital or something physical and heavy metal like a rock? And to me, it's obvious that everything is going to be digital. And so would you rather invest in the future of digital gold or antiquated pre- internet physical gold?

[00:27:53]And I think that this is like a common example of digital gold, Bitcoin digital gold. But I see it I see it every day that the digital age is here and is only going to get bigger and more important and and assets that live in the digital world are going to continue to have value. Banks are finally recognizing it.

[00:28:10]they're allowing you to buy Bitcoin and um I only think it's going to increase, not decrease.

[00:28:15]>> Right. And on that note, every time I see my 8-year-old nephew who lives in Paris, he is always asking me for a Bitcoin. Like that's Yes. He literally he see like that's what they associate me with, Bitcoin. They don't they don't want anything else. Good. At least he doesn't. He just wants a Bitcoin. So, uh it makes sense.

[00:28:34]>> Give him Bitcoin.

[00:28:34]>> Oh my god. Well, you know, as of now, >> his birthday, >> um, it's it's it's interesting um with with with that, but we can talk about that after.

[00:28:44]>> Do you know what the best wedding gifts are to our friends are? You would give them like 250 or 500 bucks or whatever it is, depending on how close you are with them, >> right?

[00:28:51]>> Usually a check. Well, we give it to them in Bitcoin.

[00:28:53]>> Yeah.

[00:28:54]>> And this has been going on for like seven, eight years >> with our friends.

[00:28:58]>> And yeah, we gave $500 worth of Bitcoin to some friends eight years ago.

[00:29:02]>> That's the best. and think about that price multiple today. And they're they just tell they remind us every time we see them. They're in New York. We're here in Miami. But they remind us they're like, "Holy."

[00:29:11]>> Yeah.

[00:29:12]>> Like that is the best wedding gift anyone ever gave us.

[00:29:15]>> The best is like back in the day when people didn't realize how high Bitcoin would get and people would, you know, they'd give Bitcoin or they'd pay you in Bitcoin or, you know, things like that and then it reached its all-time high and you're like, "Oh, that's great.

[00:29:30]>> Those were the good days." Yeah. I mean honestly we may still be in those days where what Bitcoin right now I think it's like 80,000ish you know in a month or whatever >> it could be much higher. So we could still be in those days where it's like have a Bitcoin and then you know at least you know the years to come that will be higher. I'm a big believer in that. So yeah >> me too. I'm I am a Bitcoin maxi. I truly believe in everything I said and which because of its scarcity can only lead to one thing when demand goes up and supply is fixed then the price has nowhere to go but up assuming demand goes up and I believe demand is going up and um >> I think that Bitcoin is going to go multiples higher in our lifetime that it'll be the best gift you can ever give someone and when you leave your children uh or your family something one day that to Leave them Bitcoin is a really wonderful thing. And if you can do it taxfree and if you can leave them more Bitcoin than you even had in the first place cuz you use life insurance, then what's better than that, >> right? Right.

[00:30:34]>> I think that the the framing of this is, you know, try to like not over complicate things. Bitcoin life insurance, it's a place to put your Bitcoin. It's really, you know, you have to pay a premium in Bitcoin. So, it really is for people who have Bitcoin right now. And when you have Bitcoin right now, you're not really mentally going out and buying something new and allocating your monthly budget to something new like life insurance the way you do in traditional in the traditional way. All you're doing is moving your Bitcoin on the blockchain into a new account that meanwhile sets up for you. And then it suddenly takes all the properties of life insurance which is 2% per year every year in in Bitcoin denominated yield. The ability to borrow against your Bitcoin taxree and ultimately the ability to leave more Bitcoin your family than you had in the first place in the form of a death benefit. That's also taxfree and it's easy and seamless. So when you start to think about that that it's just moving Bitcoin then suddenly it's it's really easy thing to do.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Jason, thanks so much. If our listeners want to reach out to you or learn more about Meanwhile, are you on X? Are you on social media?

[00:31:41]Is there Yeah, >> you can find me at leobbtc.

[00:31:44]Uh you can also go to our website, meanwhile.bm.

[00:31:48]BM is in Bermuda.

[00:31:50]>> Okay. Well, Jason, thank you so much.

[00:31:52]Thanks uh for having