Conflicts are often sustained not by ideological or justice-based motivations but by economic incentives that benefit various actors, including arms dealers, politicians, military personnel, NGOs, and opportunistic entrepreneurs who profit from smuggling, extortion, resource control, and the chaos of war. The angophone crisis in Cameroon exemplifies this phenomenon, where the conflict has become a multi-trillion dollar industry with over 14 trillion US dollars spent annually on arms and war-related activities, while the general population suffers casualties, displacement, and loss of education. Peace is described as having three types: negative peace (absence of violence), positive peace (conditions making violence unlikely), and internal peace (psychological well-being), and resolving conflicts requires addressing these economic incentives through negotiation and dialogue rather than continued armed struggle.
Peace vs Profit: Who is secretly keeping the war alive?Ajouté :
It's the first edition of Prime AB on my media prime TV for this uh week and tonight we're going to be focusing on prolonged uh conflicts especially with respect to the ongoing conflicts in the northwest and southwest uh regions of Cameroon. We're going to be looking at peace and profit who is secretly keeping conflicts alive and uh for what reasons.
We're going to be discussing on this very pertinent uh topic with panelists who are with me in the studio. We have Dr. Michael Andreancho who is a lecturer with some universities out here in Adala and Yawundi. He also heads a civil society organization. Uh Dr. Michael Macho, we glad to have you.
>> It's a pleasure Mr. Kum to be here again this beginning of the the week. And I will first I'll start by sending my condolences to those who were involved in an accident between Buddha and Bamea.
We keep decrying the state of our roots and we also keep decrying the mentality of drivers. Of course, all we need to be able to raise an alarm to let Cameroonians know that life is precious.
And in as much as we do not have bad roots, maintaining stability and preserving life should be almost on our table. Therefore, with this, I say hello to all Cameroonians, especially my own people from NI. Good evening.
>> Okay. We also are going to be discussing with Mr. Mosake Lucas Leonga who is a modern nation builder and USDP coordinator for the town of Abua capital of the southwest region. Good evening Mr. M. We glad to have you.
>> Good evening Mr. Leu once more. I'm very happy to be here and uh I am so glad that uh we are picking up in Cameroon and uh we are trusting God that as things go by things will change, things will evolve and that the conflict will finally be resolved. That is the prayer and that is the wish of all Cameroonians who actually want peace to return to the northwest and southwest jo. Thank you.
>> Okay. Um thank you very much for honoring our invitation. Other panelists are also supposed to be joining us. We hope they bit traffic to be part of tonight's edition of the program. Uh Dr. Michael Nimancho we are going to be looking at this concept of peace and uh prophet who is secretly keeping the conflict alive and um what does the phrase peace versus profit really mean in context of modern conflicts? we especially with respect to what is happening in Cameroon.
>> Well, when we talk about peace >> and profit >> and profit of course, >> uh I will start by talking about peace because uh >> peace is actually divided you know into three parts. There are three types of peace. Let me put it that way. We have what we call the negative peace. The negative peace is peace where we talk about the absence of war, the absence of violence, the absence of conflict. We call that the negative peace. And then we have what we call the positive peace which is the presence of the conditions that make you know violence unlikely.
That is positive peace. When we have conditions in a place in a country that makes violence unlikely we call that positive peace. Now we now have the third which is the an internal peace whereby you that deals with the state of mind you know where you stay and you say I mean you are happy you know you are not disturbed psychologically no depression and most of those things. So it's about the state of mind that's internal peace. So that is it that in a nutshell you know I would say that peace is when uh conflicts are managed by institutions and negotiations generally in summary what we can say peace out because there is no society that is really uh totally in peace >> and therefore if you want to give a summary of what peace is we can say peace generally is in a context way conflict is managed by institutions and there are negotiations >> because when you look at in every quarter in every region >> in families >> in families there is there are conflicts.
>> Yes.
>> And therefore when these conflicts are managed in a very very you know structured way we call this peace. Yes.
But when you allow them to escalate, they go off without any meaningful structure to manage them. That is now when you call there's conflict because rather there are conflicts even within families right as we were talking about because some of most of some of this even start in in the families. There was one time I was telling somebody a Christian friend and I told him >> you don't have I don't like hear people talk about praying for world peace. I prefer people talk about praying for peace in the families because when there is peace in the family there will be automatically peace in the world. Yeah.
Because all of these things result from the family. Now we now go into the aspect of we say uh profit you know that people benefit mostly when there conflicts.
Yes. When there is peace the benefit is collective.
When there is conflict the benefit is individual.
So that is when actually people a lot of people make profit and one of the things that we'll talk about is the material incentives that people have when there's conflict they have a lot of material incentives because there is money from smuggling money from extortion. When you go to the conflict heat zone like the northwest and southwest region you hear people talking about extortion. You hear people talk about smuggling of arms.
Those arms are smuggled in by individuals who want to make profit and extortion is made uh because people take an advantage of the situation of the disorganization of the conflict of the disorder to extort money or material from individual because I know at that particular moment you cannot take anybody anywhere. Everybody is living in a state of fear and thirdly you realize that there is profit with politicians. I'm happy that we have uh our w mayor here. There's profit with politician because politician use the concept of conflict to justify their emergency budgets.
>> Mhm.
>> Yes. This is one of the thing that they use to make profit because at this point of time when there is conflict there are a lot of you know fishy budget that people make. Even the military uses that to make profit. The military will say we need this budget now to deploy people from here and here and here. I remember I having met John Fu rest in peace and one of the things I disco one of the thing he told me was that uh at first he used to organize strike actions matches you know uh organizing all the thing street whatsoever with the SDF but at one moment he refused that you will not do that again and I asked chairman why he said when he organizes that they the military that eat Because when he organizes they deploy money I mean a bulk of money to the military per he comes to dual and say he's going to have a strike action what happens y sends a lot of money down to the military in duala and now in in the guise of having to stop the the protest march so that is one of the thing politicians too are not left out they use a lot of means like when we had have elections what do they a lot of them make a lot of profits in sort of way that they wanted to penetrate they will say they penetrated the hint allands to make campaigns. Now the budget that they have now is not more a normal budget that they have uh us I mean in the past. Now they will say their security is at stake and they have the risk >> the risk and all of those logistics AND ALL THAT THAT IS profit and at the final analysis you even see that most of them do not even spend the campaign money because what we even observe during the last election was that many people who took money for campaigns to the villages where you have the crisis they didn't use the money because they have the pos they had the possibility maybe to use the military or use means to stuff ballots and they didn't need to do any campaign any longer. So the money that they had for campaign they kept to their pocket that is profit during uh a period like this. And you know to during war conflict there is what we call resource control.
>> Mhm. H that may not apply very much in Cameroon but when you go to country like Sudan and other world countries like GRC the democratic republic Congo you have where you have real resources where people are fighting for it is this period of conflict is a period of conflict that people take an advantage to actually you know dig out the the minerals and all OF THAT BECAUSE WHEN there is peace everybody is aware everybody is watching you cannot penetrate together but when there is that conflict that disorder and most people now same I mean they create the disorder in order to have an easy penetration into the minds into the resources of the people and get it out. So that is the profit the peace and the profit that we can talk about talking about this even >> okay um Mr. uh Lucas are today's conflicts genuinely uh about ideology and justice or have they become economic systems for certain actors when you look at what is happening especially in Cameroon?
>> Yeah. Uh it's a pathetic situation when human beings are losing their lives and other human beings take advantage to make money, to make profits, to make uh uh uh gains.
>> Like the ongoing angophone conflict in Cameroon has overdrafted because up to 10 years is too much time for an internal conflict. I call it an internal conflict because it's something that has to do with Cameroon. It's not Cameroon with some other country that is external. It has overdraft and uh uh uh uh uh uh smart entrepreneurs have taken advantage of the conflict and they have made a lot of money for themselves.
Now my own uh uh uh focus which what I would love to actually dwell on a little bit on this issue of profit and uh uh uh peace and and justice >> you're going to come to that. My question is are the conflicts today are they genuinely about ideology and justice >> today when you look at what is happening and >> yes looking at the specific case of Cameroon the the the the the conflict is truly about ideology >> because there's an ideology which uh uh the Amazonians are putting forward the ideology which they say that they want in their own country and they want complete independence >> and that their ideology and they putting it forward very strong and the issue of justice is where the problem is because the Amazonians are looking at it as though justice is not served to them because they have a cause. They have an ideology and their ideology is genuine to them. Their ideology is correct to them and they believe that they have they have the right for justice >> with respect to their ideology. And if you truly study their ideology, you realize that despite the fact that they might have used a a a much more harsh strategy, their ideology is based on historical foundations and truths which can be justified and what they have online as their points with respect to their ideology because they are not just talking in space. If you go online it's clearly outlined why they are fighting.
>> Historically historically where do you place Ambaz Amazonia?
>> Yes. Historically the Amazonians claimed that they that the third option was not given to the former British Southern Cameroon and that is where THEY ARE FIGHTING THAT they were not truly given their independence as former British Cameonians territory and that is where the Ambazonian argument is is based >> because they are claiming that >> theuh uh uh uh uh the United Nation did not actually treat the the the former British Southern Came. Well, >> are we talking about Ambazia or former British Southern Cameroon?
>> No, the the Ambaz Amazonian ideology goes back to the root cause of the fact that they wish or they prefer a separate territory because they were not given independence. The third option independence is clearly online in what they have.
>> Doc Dr. Um when we look at what is happening uh today we have the impression that there is a genuine uh uh course that is uh being fought and justice on the ground today.
>> Well uh yes and no.
Uh yes because uh the basis on which the crisis started >> uh we can be able to touch something because when at the beginning of the crisis we talked about the issues of education and what do what do we say about education that we do not want the deployment of French teachers in English schools that is genuine for me because a child sitting in class and not understanding the language of instruction is already a problem because this is one of the things that they is uh secondly the issues of the law whereby they complained that there were magistrate frame magistrate ruling in courts English courts and instructions that uh you know uh people were not understanding I think that it's a genuine cause at that particular point in time but there is a difference between having a genuine cause and going about solving the the the the incident the aspect of it.
>> Uh because in as much as we can say they had a genuine course um the the roots which they took the route they follow was so separining and at the point in time they got missing along the way because they reach a crossroads because there was no direct way in which they had to follow. No. Now my second part of the your answer will be no because they do not have a just cause as of today because uh we have seen the uh route as I talked about which they followed which has even caused more harm than the good that they were fighting for. This is now where we are having a problem because at a point in time remember some of us and I particularly I supported the ideology but the ideology turned out to be a theology because to me the ideology was okay people should be respected and just like the NCN took a case to the African people's court yes it was a cause a genuine cause this is the way you follow an aspect and that you can be able to follow that these people actually have a way of following a is and just like with the war and all they cry for the GC board and it came with the pain. This is a way you follow an issue and and the end we had it that is an ide because people believe in something and they kept on following it but a theology is something that is so temporal and an ideology is ephemeral. So that that theology they followed of course is about having to kill in order to gain what they have which didn't work and this is where we are today and that is where my no is standing that in as much as they had a genuine cause a genuine reason for fighting a genuine reason for demanding what they demanded and of course we run a program here also about how some efforts that have been made about the A1 in 1993 the crazy and most of those those are things that you can follow up. But now people came up and thought that they can quickly you know use force in order to gain and what the harm that they have caused up to today I'm bet you the harm is more than what we were asking for and that is why I think that up to now as we speak they do not have any genuine cause and that is what now we are crying for peace everybody now crying for peace because even the person who took up you know a palm tree a peace plant in 2016 Today what he's asking for is the peace that we are discussing this evening because the conflict has adwred the peace that we're waiting for and perhaps we may need some other technocrat and philosophers to come and actually push forward the agenda which we have as angopones up to that when we leave it in the hands of those okay you've asked about the ambia and you asking where the basis of ambia is you remember now that they shifted from the issue of the southern Cameroon to Ambaz Amazonia because they to them they said they do not more identify themselves even with southern Cameroon they want something uh I mean they went to Ambas Bay they want to have a NEW TRIAL SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY history with the Republic of Cameroon now you see means that there are no people without a history because when you want to erase history it means that you are erasing even the course you want to take and this is the one of the mistake that we did that is where Ambaz Amazonia is coming from some people do not know Ambassador comes for ambassad because they said they want to locate it actually geographically yes where I mean the southern Cameroon is from and now because they do not want to have any links to do with Laru they want to take a neutral ground and we are crying you cannot talk about history at one moment because at that time they were talking about going back to federation because that was one of the cry you cannot talk about going out to re and then suddenly you change your position this is the problem and I saying that um the issue of angophone remains marginalization remains a problem that we continue to fight. It is a problem. Uh the issue of balance regional balance which we do not have is an issue we continue to fight.
the issue of education appointment even even though there was some masqueradic appointments after the crisis where we were we had to benefit from the po ministerial post of minister of territorial administration and education which we have not always had I think that that we still need more like Oliver twist we need more of that because that is not representative of us because we talk about Cameroon being maybe it is uh uh let's say 8 to two. At least we really need that two to be representative for us that we have two regions and they really need to be representative. Up to today we see that there is still some marginalization.
They I mean there is still uh this issue of looking at an angophone as a secondass citizen because most of us who walk down this way east of the we leave some of those experiences. There is not yet that love and that peace which now I will now talk about the peace of the mind which is internal peace. Why over there they have the positive peace here we have the negative peace the internal conflict that we are suffering from when we get into offices and people look at us and people come from another land. So it is a genuine case but approach is that which we need to recall.
>> Okay. Who are the hidden beneficiaries?
Uh when conflicts drag on for 5 years because um there is also miraculous that after 5 years 6 7 years the the the the conflict are still ongoing. Why is it difficult? Is it uh because some persons have used it as a sure source?
>> Yes. actually from theories uh uh uh a conflict the average uh uh timing of conflict resolutions is 24 years.
>> Mhm.
>> So this one has not even gone anywhere but you can shorten the time. Mhm.
>> So the the the the the actual beneficiary for this Cameroon conflict, let's be specific, the actual beneficiaries from this Cameroon conflict has really been the diasporans who have been raising a lot of monies. They have been saying it online, people should give, people should give and people have been giving.
You have the military that have been deployed into the field. They go for missions for 3 months and they are highly paid for those 3 months that they in the field.
>> Yeah. But it's also risk allowance.
>> Yes.
That is benefit from the war or from the office because they are going out for that 3 months because there is a conflict if not they will stay back. So they benefit a lot. Though there is a risk but there is a benefit attached to >> many many go and do not come back.
That's why I said there is benefit attached to the risk.
>> Yes. Then the government benefits a lot >> during conflict period like this because the government most government take advantage to get e loans. Most government receive aid and even support from some bodies that support the government to help them to see how they can resolve the conflict. So money also comes in in as much as the government spends the government also receives from different quotas that give to the government. So the government also benefit a lot. Then you now have the the highest beneficiaries are the people who sell arms and related accessories. Those are the people who benefit the most because during war you there's a lot of armed trafficking that takes place and people sell arms and other uh uh uh things that are linked to armories. So those are the people who make the highest benefits. Then you also have a set of people that make a lot of money during war period like this.
They are usually called smart entrepreneurs. Mhm.
>> Smart entrepreneur they study the situation and they see how they can what can they supply and what can they bring in to make money because people are desperate. People are confused. People don't know where to vote on. SO THE FEW PEOPLE THAT ARE SMART they make sure that the needs of the people are met.
They buy and bring they sell. They make sure that they create new businesses that sell within that period of the conflict or on a war because there is a complete business dynamic change during a conflict. Those who usually do their normal businesses may not be able to do it again. BUT THERE ARE SOME PERSON that are smart in exploiting conflict situations. They create other type of of avenues on how they can sell products to the people that actually need this products. Those people to also benefit.
But in general, the population is the one that suffers the most >> because they are the ones that are being killed. They are the ones that face casualties. They are the ones that live in perpetual fear. They are the ones that, for example, many children have not been able to go to school. They have been disrupted from their school. Some have stayed home for 5 years and have not been able to go to school. And so so you SEE THE POPULATION SUFFERS. THEY ARE THE ONES that lose and lose everything because at the end the population will gain nothing from such a conflict.
>> Okay. The population gains nothing from the the conflict. Um now how how how do we understand uh the fact that this conflict has uh when conflicts arises we have the creation of new personalities uh will become very relevant and um given new titles and would actually want to ask themselves what would become uh to them if the conflict were to cease.
Of course uh just like every other situation >> there are opportunist in everything >> and well being opportunist sometimes is not completely negative because people use situation in order to rise you know >> uh some people decide to rise when they are conflict through their through their courage through their ingenuity through their creativity and all of those they be they they shine and they rise from nothing to something. So that we we understand with that and but we understand that there are some people who after they just steal the show you know at the end of it all they just want to be pompos they all want to show up they I mean he too nobody knew them at this part I mean you know they gain from some literary sports and all of those to be able to to blow off and gain some you know wider uh you know knowledge. I mean people know them better but but then uh I also think that it is not just about people it's also about organizations we also have some organizations uh like NOS's who also stand out is a time of conflict that uh maybe they are able to penetrate certain areas now with the social media they blew off and everybody knows that these people went to this way to go distributing things from here and there because when we Even talking also about the beneficiaries. Uh the NGOs are also one of the highest beneficiaries of the conflict. Uh because of the aid that comes from abroad and all of those everybody who does anything wants to write about it now write and ask for funding right ask for it. And that is why at one moment in this crisis you realize that especially when the US stopped it US aid in some of these things most of those NOS went extinct.
we didn't hear about them anymore because NGOs's they went because of what they were gaining from abroad what the sponsorship they were gaining so is the same thing with people uh you want to and two I'd like to touch on issues of politicians most politicians have gained credibility because they went uh I mean they were able to penetrate maybe some zones uh I remember I saw one who went from man to binda and all that and that he made a lot of name wanted to make a lot of name for himself to say that okay he has penetrated he has spoken to the people even though he just went in hiding he didn't actually meet the people but you know he got the fact that he stepped foot in those kind of areas he wants to blow and say that okay he went into the conflict zone so we have a lot of people like that and especially those who are able to command a following they make a lot of name uh you remember during this crisis we had some people especially when the uh Then three leaders went to prison. It was handed over to some people in the internet republic there in abroad and they were commanding from there and it appears as if their words were gospel truth. Once they said it, everybody believed. And you see now those people have remained famous either in one way positively or negatively because at that particular point in time they were famous positively because people thought they were like the saviors you know uh they wanted to salvage the people from but as the war goes on people begin to discover that these people were not real people that we had and you have even seen many of them going to prisons and abroad and all of those. So now you find that a lot of people made their names. They are names that we didn't know before 2016.
But as the crisis started, we started hearing about the name. The names were on the top rooftops and everybody was on the lips of every child. So that is it.
That the way some people make their name and now it makes them get the impression that they are popular. Meanwhile, they really are not. They are victims of circumstances that have made people to know them. And it's just like you say that okay some people give orders and people respect it they are not the orders that are respecting the people are afraid that is why they actually follow the orders if you allow the people to take the decision let me tell you there will be no ghost towns on Monday there will be none on Mondays because of the the suffering that inflicts on the people you cannot I mean it's like you are a dog a dog cannot defend its master and at the same time bite biting. You see those people who stand over there are dogs and they were supposed to defend the people but they are rather biting the people. You block roads, you their accents on schools, hospitals are down. I mean you kill people, you rape, I mean you slaughter, you know take ransoms and all of those.
Those are some of the evils that have come with the crisis. And now people now begin to understand that those that we they thought were their saviors because these things do not happen without their knowledge. Even though they are most around here it it doesn't happen without their knowledge because when it happens they are the one who put it on internet and said this happened this I hear they call another one master or they had their names and now the people began to know that the people who made their names in 2016 2017 of the 2019 were not really the people that actually was were their savior and that they were just opportunist that came in into the war and now we have discovered uh that they were only wearing mask. We have unmasked them. So that is the issue that as I mean I would say individuals make names of course they make a lot of name from the war from conflict organizations make name from the war and conflict and of course you will have to I will also say even the in times of conflict uh organization like churches they make their name because most people during conflict depend on God. When you look at what happened in the north and southwest many people, many more people have become Christians because when you are at the age you know or you are in the middle of the sea, going back is not possible. Going forth is a far-fetched dream. The only thing you depend is now on God. And many people now became real Christians whereby the only voice that they respected at that time was the voice of their pastor, the voice of their priest and all of those. So you also find that churches too became places of you know comfort for most people where they went to their god. It is important to know that and that uh this teaches a lesson that when something happens it is good that the population sits and study and see the durability of the thing because when he started too I I know that my my co-panelist here knows that they they promise independence in 3 months I mean highest one year and that is why many people just plunge into saying that there is independence they promise independence to the young the guys that they recruited into uh uh they fight and they promise the guys they'll become colonies, they become corners, they become generals and all of those and because they didn't finally become they are hosting the names in the bushes. So that is it. A lot of people have benefited through you know h distortion of information they have benefited through selling of their own personal ideas through extortion and many other ways.
>> Okay Mr. Uh Mo, you raised the issue of arms dealers. Um what role do they actually play um to safeguard foreign interest and also help in prolonging wars?
>> Yes. Uh arm dealers are entrepreneurs and business persons >> and they have their networks worldwide and they sell arms and their sale of arm is illegal.
>> Mhm.
>> Because you have legal sales of arms which governments buy arms directly. But you also have now this illicit uh uh trafficking of arms which is illegal and arm dealers illegal arm dealers exploit the period of wars conflict and the smuggle arms and sell to to to to let me use the word especially the rebel groups that come up during wars. the group that usually fight against the governments in all countries. They the they buy arms, they smuggle arms from their sponsors and so on. And this arms that they use this arms to cause havoc on whatsoever they do because it's illegal. It's illegal for rebel groups to hold arms. It's illegal. But the government is legally holding arms. So this this this this these entrepreneurs these guys who smoole arms left and right they take this opportunity to sell so many arms and sell uh uh other accessories that are being used during war time to to make their money. They make a lot of profit during this time and that is why they are happy when there's a war and they pray that the wars will prolong because the more the war prolongs they will sell more arms they will sell more accessories for the people that are fighting the war and they they are one of the highest set of beneficiary but it's a very risky uh uh business because it's illegal and it's it it does not tie with the the the the the laws of a country that people should be selling arms illegally. So such arm sales are usually not acceptable because it's it's it's helping to fuel the war and it's helping to make the war to prolong whereas we are uh actually asking for a ceasefire.
Uh so when these arms are still being sold like this, it it complicate things more because the more arms are coming in, the more sophisticated arms that are coming in, the more courage now uh uh uh is being mounted by those in the bushes and the rest that they have more sophisticated armory and they can use it to do a lot of this. They jubilate, they are happy, they celebrate. how they can use it now to to to to cause more havoc.
So it's really not the best and individuals that are engaged in such businesses should be very careful because they are trading the lives of human beings. They are trading the life of innocent human beings who are not supposed to be killed, who are not supposed to be destroyed. But in time like this when they sell these arms to to to to to any of the sites then these arms are being used to cause havoc cause confusion raise places burn down houses and so on burn down villages destroy communities cause people to displace themselves from where they were and become IDPs in other towns in Cameroon just because arms have been sold. And let me say that immediately this conflict became an armed conflict. That was where things became very very rough and very very bad. Everybody was just praying that this thing should not go armwise. But as the boys took arms, it became another level and and and they became more sophisticated with sophisticated arms which today arms can pull down structures, pull down heavy duty vehicles and so on which is not a good thing for us. I think that these type of businesses should should not be encouraged and people who are doing this should be very careful because they will have to explain in future why they were involved in that because this thing will not come to an end and people go free. When it comes to AN END PEOPLE WERE involved in one way or the other they think that they are free now.
No, IT WOULD TAKE SO MANY YEARS but they will be they'll be be be apprehended and they will have to answer before the courts why they were involved in such activities.
>> Now now we talking about um peace and prophet Dr. Michael and Majo and he's talking so much about the issue of arms dealers. Now when you engage in purchasing arms which are quite expensive, you investing for what? That this these arms you're buying is to do what? To kill human beings. And do you know that by doing that you are enriching um enriching a an industry and also going to inflict pains on some other persons.
>> Yeah. Uh um Mr. Leo, if you take from the words of the pope in Binda >> who also talked about how a lot of money is invested in arms >> which are used to cause disorder and of course and later is invested in developmental project. Uh you understand that we live in a situation of uh autocratism, a situation of dictatorship even at every level because sometime when we say this you we only think about The government at at own level everybody wants to command >> and when arms are involved it is because people do not want to use institutions and negotiation in conflict. It is because they want to be autocratic. They want to be dictatorial. That is why arms are used because arms is the weapon of the weakest. Let me say this arms is when you use arm it means that you are the weakest of the society because it means that you cannot tell a problem on the table you cannot negotiate you cannot use an institution but you want to use an instrument to kill means that you are weak so and that is it uh people use arms apart from saying that okay like Mr. And my co-panelary said yes it is there's a war economy as we say in general people yes arms yes make money and all of those but then arms are also used to create kind of disorder in the society that is one purpose of the arms to create disorder. Yes. Because they are used to create what we call fear.
Yes. They are used to create what we call fear because there are some stages in creating fear in a society for purposes of individuals whereby you think that you need something, you need to govern, you need to command, you need to get something.
One of the best thing that you do is to use arms because you know you yourself just speaking politicians they speak but those war mongers they use arms for the purpose of even the politicians because the politicians them too themselves most of them are dictators because most of them sponsor what is happening. Yes they out create the disorder because sometime when we talk about disorder like no and southwest we only think about the military there are some politicians who are involved. There are some politician who are involved in ransom taking. There are administrators who are involved in this thing. They're not just the military. So you find that the arms people use to create that kind of uh psychological trauma, psychological fear in the people in order to implement their own uh you know ideology in the society. Not just about gaining something from a society but about implementing their own ideology for the future because there are people who plan things here this war that we have for for this past 10 years. If they tell you what some people plan about gaining at the end of this war you will not imagine. They may plan this thing for 10 for 20 years and say at the end of 20 years this is what we are going to achieve. There may be somebody actually who is having some ambitions and he creates this. He knows at the end of 20 24 years he's going to achieve this. So it is important that we understand that arms is something that is an agelong instrument that has been used for ages in order to I mean create disorder in society to create fear in the society in order that people can be able to get in easily and get exactly what they want because let me tell you once we are sitted here if you hear the sound of a gun nobody stays indifferent. I'm sure that Mr. Kung will be the first even to run out of this studio. So it is a problem because people know the psychological effect of the arm that they want to use it. So it plays a lot on the physical and the psychological status of individuals in the society and being a weapon that for so a so long has been used in this and people know that there's no alternative to this. So it is that they continues to use in order to create that and apart from the fact that even the industries are brought are flourishing because of and you understand that arms are even also very industries they make a lot of money and arms are very very expensive and then you ask yourself peace is cheap. Peace is very very cheap. Why is it that people leave what is cheap to go for what is expensive? Because now when you start with arms to earn it is a problem.
But peace is very cheap for us to accept. Now you now see we understand with creation and with God to say that you have air that is cheap. You have amenities that are cheap but people decide to go before what is expensive.
SO IT IS HUMAN NATURE. HUMAN nature is meant for to be to I mean to get involved in conflict. But now the degrees of conflict now actually matters because you reach another degree of conflict whereby you can no more solve and at one moment now because you use arm people now start asking that they want compensation for what happened because people have used guns to kill others and now they want compensation.
SO HE FIND THAT IT'S ALL about money monetizing everything that happens and arms have been used as one of those number one issues that people use to monetize. You kill somebody and then people ask for Mr. K and our mayor to be for we talking about seeking peace and making profits and I asked you earlier on how genuine the ideologies uh that are being fought for. uh today the question I ask is everybody is talking about peace and others are profiting from this let us put the taking of the kidnapping of uh the population the collection of ransom people have to pay to be released you have to go and bury somebody you have to pay and um yes all of this which ideology are we actually fighting to defend here.
>> Yeah, Mr. Leo, the issue of of kidnappings, the issue of even harassing youths and picking them up to go and lock them up that they have been involved one or the other. All this all these issues of arresting youth, kidnapping youth for ransom and so on. I think these are the consequences of a conflict. When the conflict comes, other things to follow because we see so many youths arrested, carried by trucks to to to places, they are locked up and before you you are released, you pay money and so on. So you see that even the state itself is not helping the situation. You come to a ki, you meet youth playing football, you arrest all of them, you carry them up. For them to be released, they have to pay. For them to be released, they have to pay monies. I don't think so. It shows lawlessness.
There's no country that function with law that you just come and innocently arrest people at random. You take them, lock them up for no good reason for them to be released. they have to pay money. This is something which have been going on and this is happening in the midst of A CONFLICT THAT PEOPLE ARE fighting that peace should retain that uh uh cease fire should be pronounced so that both the separatists and the military will keep down the guns so THAT THE THE DIALOGUE table can be open so that peace should be given a chance. You still find again in the midst of all this that governmental authorities are creating confusion in places arresting youth, arresting women, arresting even children and for them to be released they have to pay money. Now I think these are things that need to be decrieded seriously especially by the media especially by the print media and and the radio and the television. THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY DECRY THIS THING BECAUSE IT'S ABNORMAL AND WE HAVE BEEN SEEING it on a daily basis that young people are arrested at random for no good reason and for them to be released THEY PAY MONEY.
PARLIAMENTARIANS, SENATORS AND THE REST WILL TAKE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AND DECRY SUCH THINGS WHICH do not benefit the community that do NOT BENEFIT THE SOCIETY. THIS IS DISORDER CREATED BY ADMINISTRATORS. And I also wish to say that the issue of random of ransom is has been termed uh uh uh uh uh uh uh in a funny way now because I saw some write ups that the people who are kidnapping for ransoms are not only the voices that they are thieves that have also taken advantage.
THINGS HAVE ALSO coming now pretending to carry the mask the the cap of the BICES AND THEY ALSO go around harassing people arrest people for ransom. SO NOW WE FIND OURSELVES in a mix of situation WHERE THE PERSONS THAT ARE kidnapping for ransoms, the persons that are raping, the persons THAT ARE DOING ALL these atrocities, you cannot tag all of them to the voices BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALSO CAUGHT PERSONS THAT ARE NOT PART of the move BUT WHO ARE THIEVES, CHRONIC THIEVES that have taken advantage of this situation and they too are asking for ransoms, kidnapping for ransom and so on. But in all this chaos, Mr. Leo, in all this chaos, the bottom line is that government should take her responsibility.
>> Okay.
>> Government should take her responsibility and make sure that this conflict comes to an end.
>> Dr. uh Deancho, I was also ask question.
We're talking about the ideology uh being fought for and uh acts like kidnappings because when they kidnap you pay millions that is uh um where does this money go to? That is what somebody will want to and how does it advance the ideology you talked about which accordingly is very uh just when people have to bury their loved ones they have to pay as money to which account is this uh going to and how is this money that is collected advancing any any cause?
Yeah, that is now exactly what we are saying that you have people with ulterior motive about war, individual motive about war. Opportunists are into war.
>> Uh because uh since the crisis even started, we have not had a a kind of a bank account where they say okay contribution for the war, this is where it is going to. you have lots of people who are in their individual uh corners uh actually kidnapping and taking ransoms. And I I I was in Bameda lately and I was talking with a few people and one of uh a colleague told me that uh one of the things that they are beginning to um study and to make research and see is how some houses are cropping up uh in the neighborhoods in Binda in and some villages and that uh some people have taken upon themselves to make an investigation to know exactly those who are constructing those houses and the highest hit part of the crisis at the highest at the peak at that poe of the crisis because you realize that most of these guys some of them who take ransom they go build their individual mansions and now this is the war they are fighting for this is the war this is the people's war that they are fighting for they take ransom and then they invest in in their individual property we it is not even a novelty that we have had many of them of course that they unmask most of them were even killed at construction sites where they are building their own houses and the question is where did the money come from that they are building such luxurious mansions and now you understand that the money comes from ransom taking and all of those so you now realize that war create this order where most people crooks and terrorists you know they come into it to fight for their individual because now you don't want to live in affluence and the objective, the ideology and that is why I keep on talk about the theology of war which we had is not an ideology because it is not sustainable. It is not sustainable at all because if it was sustainable it would have still been now. So I think that we still have the ideology of the angophone crisis whereby people believe in it and of course it was people have the mentality that this is the actually the attribute of an angophone. This is what an angu one. So you find that the ideology is kind of an selfish individualistic kind of an ideology. People think that they should grow rich fast and that is the is by the end of the crisis they must have made a lot of money. So this is what is happening. We have seen many of them who have gotten money and cross over to other countries and they have gotten money from the blood innocent blood of people that they have killed they have taken ransom and they have gone out to the country. We we have many of them and I still say like Mr. M said I think the government needs to make his own investigation. We have lot of them who get that money from there. They come and enjoy here in town. Many of them travel.
They come and enjoy here in town and they go back under which conditions and how do they travel? We do not know. So you FIND THAT IT IS SOMETHING THAT people are now fighting for themselves because we do not sell like and you hear people say okay we have invested this in schools because if you are talking about an angophone cause then you should be able to assist in education. You should be able to assist in in the in the health sector. You should be able to assist in the infrastructure. But what we rather see is that they are destroying the infrastructure. On the contrary, because the money they are collecting for ransom will be a money that they will help to build that angophone status or angophone idea, that angophone you know image that they want to build. But I learned the other day that you I mean a construction company was burnt in Binda. when you see I mean so now you see that uh the money that people take is for personal agandisment is for their families for themselves is for their girlfriends and all of those because there is no accountability since they started their journey to buya we have not heard they reach maybe uh uh bridge and say that this is let's make an account let's see that this account before reaching Buya we have not heard that we have not heard the amount of money that they have made that people have even contributed in fact that it keeps on I mean many of those organization and have failed because of mismanagement of money. Before you start, you hear that the money issue has already come in. We start they started this in 2016 and people contributed a lot of money. NOW THE GROUPS HAVE SHUT THOSE GROUPS THAT we thought that actually were actually together to actually ple and focus they have gone apart because of money because people wanted to enrich themselves from what people contributed and a lot of people now have understood and that is why the issue of ransom taken kidnapping has increased because angopus have understood that the money was being I mean invested in in individual project in private pockets and all of those. So that is the same thing that the boys are doing over there in Bameida because you don't find the boys who are in the bushes they come out and they take people into the bushes and you ask yourself through which means which bank and where are they keeping the money now you understand that the money is only for themselves and that is why they need to be investigated.
>> Okay. Uh Chu Fideli says I'm watching from Buaala Evelyn is watching from Susan Desmond is watching from Banda. Ed akum Johannes says Duala. I'm watching from Duala.
Shans keep bright as usual from Kumbahas and Buuya from Duala. Elvis Redman is watching from Limbeang.
Luis is watching from Bua. I don't know where that is. Um Mein Sa is watching from Bmena. Chafe Virginia says okay. Um Fqua Clovis is watching from A to the Yund. Gvenin 4 is watching from Bonu.
Patrick Buri is watching from Maryland, United States. Chu Fidelis from Boya. I going Adela is watching from Ibonji.
Reinous Dachi from Limzo Lawren is watching from Tiko and Chaffi. Okay. Is watching from Bonab Duala. Yangci Ezekiel is watching from Tinala A. Okay.
U Reggie Ibraim is watching from Juba South Sudan. Elvis Kenchu is watching from mile 14.
Adi Hamit is watching from Sa. Uh Faron Richard is watching from Nasau. Okay.
Um Ch Sylvester is watching from Bafusam. Clinton Bob is watching from Yundi and Games Meta. Okay. Says I'm watching from Boya. The program is very educative. Watching live from that is gaming senator. And as Julio is watching from Melon in a day. Yes. Um now can conflict become a business model? Can can we see a business model that is developed after uh according to the pattern of this uh conflict? Yes. What the key players profiting from the industry?
>> Yes. War is a business.
>> Okay.
>> It's a big is a multi- trillion dollar industry. War.
>> Mhm.
>> War is multi- trillion dollar industry.
And uh uh uh most most the the the the research shows that over 14 trillion US dollars is spent each year over 14 trillion US spent each year on issues related to war and selling of arms and so on. All those put together over 14 trillion US dollars is spent.
>> So it's a whole big industry on its own.
And that is why some people think that uh uh uh uh some conflicts or some wars are insinuated by by networks that benefit from the sales of of of of armory >> to to to make bit profit from this.
And uh one question which which one young man asked he said but why what is the need of producing so much harm in the world to kill human beings that God has created.
So it's a very big question and that is why uh I I I so much cherish this this uh ideology which is in the Bible and is also used in in in in peace and conflict studies that we should do unto others what we would love them do unto us. It's a golden rule >> which which states that human beings should live in such a way that we should do unto others what we will expect them do to us. Mhm.
>> If this moral ideology is put forward, it's going to make the world to be a better place.
>> Mhm.
>> And I think that things like the production of arms and so on will be looked into. We are producing arms to do what with the arms. Is it to kill human beings or to kill animals in the forest and things like this? So all this thing needs to be looked into again. And I think that the United Nation is better placed to revisit some OF THESE THINGS.
WHY are countries producing a lot of arms? Is these arms or are these arms used for the destruction of human lives or are they produced to destroy animals in the forest? So what may I say? I would just love to to confirm the fact that even as research has shown the world of wars and conflict has become a multi- trillion business industry and it is running on the sales of armories worldwide and the angophone conflict has not escaped from this the angophone conflict because all the arms that are being used by the separative fighters. These arms have been purchased. These arms have been bought. These arms have been smuggled into the country and gone to these guys and they're using the arms.
THIS IS A LOT of money. IF YOU WISH TO CHECK HOW MUCH HAVE BEEN spent to buy these arms that these boys are using is much money. So, it's an industry. It's a business. It is a a a WHERE SOME PEOPLE make their livelihood. That is what some people make their livelihood. They sell arms, they traffic arms and they sell.
But trafficking and selling arms to which detriment the detriment of other human beings that are the ones that that are afterward being killed, being destroyed and so on. So it's a multi- trillion dollar business industry and it's instead growing the more it will not go down. Is it still growing more except that the United Nation will come up with probably some treaties and which most countries will sign in order maybe to reduce the proliferation of arms that we see today because it's really causing in fact if there were no arms and then there would not be anything called anglophone crisis.
>> Okay. Uh good evening um chief ambawa Peter I'm watching from Kappa. Kappa is next to Suza. Good evening to you chief.
Uh good evening yisa promise wiki watching from Wiki in Banda. That should be around Tamulong. Good evening to you.
Um good evening. This is Kingsley Atanga writing from Bamea. Good evening to all of you guys watching us from uh Bmena. U Frederick Atambbe is watching from my for Lima. The program is quite rich and educative. Uh good evening to you. uh Frederick and this one says good evening Mr. Leo Mr. The mano is talking uh taking sight with the government. He should know that even the military men also adopt people from money and where is their money going uh to because I know it is not going to the government uh coffers. Yes. Okay. If the military is is doing is is not doing well you came to fix to correct the errors of the military uh you should do better than them. Good evening Mr. Lou.
Greetings to those elites on the panel.
Just want to add that which doctors also make millions on the sales of charms.
Thanks as so many persons have written about this issue that which doctors are making so much money. We are aware of the fact that there was a time where odeshi was very popular and these odishes are taken from these guys and the godwin says I'm watching from noni.
Good evening to you. um for Edwin watching from Tamulong neighborhood in Bamea says the program is very educative. I appreciate your program. I thank you very much. And um yes uh Dr. Dancho now um are some activists themselves activists influencers and commentators knowingly or knowingly benefiting from the ongoing conflict uh narratives?
>> Yeah. How did the the conflict escalate?
influencers, bloggers and all of those they got involved >> and even journalists of mainstream media they are involved. We have had cases whereby some of the separatist they propose things to journalists and they announce so they they are involved civil societies those who take sides they are involved so a lot of people I mean it's a whole network on its own so but knowing that the internet is one of the fastest means of communication now the social media is so fast in communication we can only blame most people like the bloggers influencer or some of those because before anything comes up they do not do investigation. You know, uh the social media is a dustbby where everything just get in there.
>> People get news and they do not get to investigate. And because you want to be the first to report what happened, you truly did. H people who reach the internet, who reach Facebook and all of those, many people do not take the mind to understand how something happened.
They take what is shown there to be gospel truth. Especially when you become this influencer where like we talk about opportunity become popular you throw anything there because it comes from this or it comes out people just take as gospel truth and they start quoting. So these people have contributed a lot and because many of them have sentiments they report from the point of view of sentiment they do not more follow the the I mean ontology of journalism of talking about the lead because I know in journalism what we call the lead sometime when you read a news story you get to understand when you follow actually uh that particular you know research style of reporting. It is important for and that is why sometimes in some country you find that some country block some Facebook and that and then people start complaining most African country and then they say is the social all of those because they escalate things unnecessarily. They inflame things. They put up things and color them you know and make them believable when they are actually falsehood. I'm not saying that some of them are not true. Some of them are true. There are people who report from the objective point of view. But there are some who report from the sentimental point of view because they also want to sell across their sentiment and let the world know that this is what they stand for and therefore they paint what something black in order to achieve their personal intentions. This is what we are saying. Some bloggers I mean actually uh it's a shame that we will say that that some bloggers some influencers is a shame because finally you do not really know what they stand to report. Somebody sits from some somewhere maybe even out to the country maybe and is reporting something that is happening without any investigation. So it is a big problem. It's a huge problem and we continue to say we do not know how the social media can be regulated if it can but then we think that this company has gone to where it is.
Remember that after uh uh the 2016 2017 when uh the the the the leaders the real leaders were sent to prison. Who was the one who were those who were leading this war? There were guys from abroad who were leading this war and they were leading through what through Facebook and that's how many people have come to ter Facebook the Amazonian republic because many people make themselves presidents some make themselves spokesperson some make themselves this and that of the angopones on Facebook and now they tell or they communicated they people from Facebook and when you are already having that posture of saying that you are a leader or that you are this. There is no other thing that you can report and send out to people to consume if it doesn't favor you. And you know Facebook is one of those things where you get I know there's what we call addiction. Many of us are already addiction to Facebook where you get up from the morning the first thing you have to do is to take your phone and look at whether you miss any information overnight and this is what happened and this is the way we consume it. Many people have come to consume all of the information that we get from Facebook as gospel truth. So influencers have contributed a lot in reporting in journalism. This kind of journalism that people just do without any ethics. This is what has contributed in one way to this crisis.
>> Okay. And for Edwin watching from Tamulu neighborhood in Bermuda. The program is very educative. I appreciate your program. Thank you very much. Um for Edwin. Um this one says okay uh good evening to you also watching from Tamolong uh good evening Mr. Hello and to everyone in the studio. Please let us call is participate. This crisis in the northwest and southwest uh is transactional business sponsored by our own people and even the in government.
Every crisis or war is all about personal interest even when a cause is genuine. Let's be sincere. Where is our government taking us to? For close to 9 years now, interested landed people think only about their interest or themselves. That is bad. Giving no integrity and respect for our nation. My prayer is is this. Let all the leaders in our country know that one day they will leave this wall and Cameroon will still be there to be a better place for the chosen ones. Thank you. Dero is watching us from Limbeck. Thank you to uh Dero for this uh uh message.
We hope it has gone uh through. Um oops.
Good evening Mr. Leo and everyone in the studio from now till tomorrow. Angophone people will forever be second class citizens in this uh country. Okay. Um I'm not sure that's a man. Um good evening to you all. I'm glad for this uh program. Thank you for the education you giving us. Uh thank you too for watching. Uh good evening to you people.
It's Deson Mule watching from Tiku. The program is so so interesting. Good evening to you. Um good evening Mr. Leo.
I am Gu Lewis watching from Betto. Good evening to all of you watching us from the east region. I am watching from a from a Belinda. Good evening Mr. Leo and panelist. Thank you so much for this wonderful teaching uh tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you too all for watching uh the program. In let us take the African context particularly uh in ongoing crisis. Who stands uh to gain most if peace is delayed?
>> Yeah, Mr. Leo, I I would love to go back a little bit to the AU agenda 2063.
>> Okay. which they they have uh vowed to silence the guns and and and stop all these conflicts by the year 2030 >> and but we I don't think that we should wait for the agenda 203 for the order to >> to silence >> silence the guns.
>> I wish to launch a challenge to the Cameroon government and authorities to take the bull by the horns and bring this thing to an end. I usually say that it's very easy to bring the angophone conflict to an end because it's an internal conflict that has to do with Cameroonians.
>> And I think that everybody today is willing to make sure that we see that this thing come to an end. Let children that have not been going back going to school go back to school. Let families that have been frustrated regain life.
let people that have run away from their towns, villages and the rest to go back and resume their normal activities. I wish to say that nobody is benefiting from this conflict except those who are illegally and illicitly benefiting from it through illegal and illicit businesses >> and others who are embezzling and slending money to be used in the name of conflict and so on because gaining from the blood of human beings that is being shed people are being killed then you are gaining is a problem and I don't think that we should continue to to to to condole with what is going on in our country. Let all of us Cameroonians rise up and stand with the government so that we contribute positive ideas and talk with the government to come down from her seat. Let the government come down to the humble seat and call the angophones and call the separatists and call the Ambaz Amazonians. Let them sit down on the table and bring this thing to an end. It's a matter of different ideologies. The government has her own stand. We know the separatist have their own stand. But all of us Cameroonians, this thing has to concern.
This thing should should actually concern all of us. Now whether you are a franophone, whether you are an angophone, let us put our hands together and make sure that government bring this conflict to an end. It's very easy. This conflict can come to an end within a short space of 6 months.
>> How how how would you do that?
>> I said within a short space of 6 months.
>> Yes. How would you do that?
>> First by declaring ceasefire.
>> The guns are kept down and now within a period of 6 months is possible to arrange logistics that will be able to make us sit down together.
>> Yes. What what if government says we are we are declaring a ceasefire? Ceasefire is something that should is is is agreed upon by two parties. What if government says I want a ceasefire and the other party says no?
>> No. I think the other party have always been saying that it will end on the table. They have been saying it that it will finally end on the table. So it means that they are expecting THE TABLE.
THEY HAVE been expecting the table for long. Let's sit down and look at this issue and see where we can compromise and agree and see the middle point that we can all agree and say let this thing come to an end.
Cameonians have oversuffered from in the northwest and southwest. It's high time this thing come to an end. And I think that the separatists are ready for the table. They have been calling the table for long and I think that if the table is is given an opportunity now I think they will surely come on the table >> you speak like you speak like a spokesman for the separatist I don't know >> no no no speaking generally yeah was there an official letter or was there an official letter where the separatist said we are ready now for I don't know >> I don't know >> what I know about uh the angophone crisp separatist is that they are so much in segments >> where there is no concerted voice. This is one thing I know about them. Uh way to say that there is a single person who will sign a communicate on behalf of all the separatist. I have not yet seen I have not yet seen that. But I know that they operate in segments and I know that actually there is a segment that when the pope was coming to going to Bamea there's a segment who said we are not going to observe any ghost town we are going to allow people go meet the pope of course my reading from there is already that that kind of a segment is for peace because they understood the mission of the pope was the mission of peace and we should get that from a segment of the separate then we to at least applaud and say that that now my question is are all the others in the same like and the same thinking because I've not had I mean a communicate from a structured uh and this is the problem we have had with the ankun crisis and I'm sure that that is why constantly the government will ask itself who am I going to uh negotiate with because unlike the bafan war with juku was after a leader of the Bafra war where if you wanted to say okay I want to negotiate you knew exactly that this is a leader of the Bafra war and that you could call him to the table and you speak even though fled to Ivory Coast but he declared that the war was end and people listen so but with the angopones you have about seven I mean I do not know I mean there are so many groups with their different generals with their different colonels with their different soldiers And each of these groups they have their leaders. This one talking maybe from Norway, another one talking from America, another one talking from and they are just talking in disparate and uncoordinated voices. And then you begin to ask yourself what if you are calling this and this one says yes and then the others say no, we are not ready. And we have seen this happen. You know about the Swiss talks, they are not all of them for the Swiss talks. You know about the Canada talks and the negotiation and meet Canada negotiation. Not all of them were for the Canada negotiation because why some stood for that negotiation that meeting in Canada others stayed behind and said they are not for. So we you get this kind of dissenting voices that come from them and then you begin to ask yourself really are we really fighting a a a a I mean a a a single cause or are there people some people with some ulterior motives and some hidden agenda that about the war that we do not know because we are fighting about one thing that we are fighting that okay margin again marginization we are fighting for education I mean angopy education to be respected. We are fighting for the burial and whatsoever. We're fighting for the angophone culture. We are fighting for this inclusion I mean recognition and all of those then it would have been one voice and that if you go to each of these groups you hear the same thing happening but you do not have the same thing. It is not the same doctrine that they preach but rather we got people who are rather talking about cutting people's legs. We got people who are rather taking ransom. We get people are rather concentrated on raping women.
We have people are rather concentrating on abdoping and for ransom. We have people are rather concentrated on blocking roots. How people are concentrated on destroying administrative buildings. People are concentrating on stopping schools.
People are concentrating on putting down health centers and killing administrative or even health workers.
Now you ask yourself now with all of these put together, how do this now tied up with the goal, with the aspiration, with the intention, with the ideology of the angophone and then we get confused at one moment. And that is why when we get confused at this moment with this radicality, we have the tendency and the propensity to say that they are not angopones. sometime have an impression that there are some mercenaries that have been brought in from other countries to because like there's a a a caller who who who I mean someone wrote and said I'm only talking about the military I mean the boys who are take the boys who are taking ransom but I am looking at this this way if you are fighting a war with someone and that opponent because I take that the separatist are fighting a war with the military and the military you know The military come and maybe adopt people and you the military is adopting your people and you again adopt your own people. Who should I blame? Should I blame the military that is opposing and coming adopting your people? I should blame YOU FOR ADOPTING YOUR OWN your own brothers, your own sisters, your own parents. I should blame you and not the military because you are fighting against the military is considered AS THE ENEMY. SO WHY should I say that a ministry is doing that when you already know that you are at war with them and you know that they have their own their own intentions. So we talked about the profit of the war. Much of the profit of war also goes on the other side where we have the military administration. We talked about it here. So we get confused that our people uh appears as if even the local person those uh most do not really want the war to come to an end and we still talk about the profit that they get from it and then the real economy of war is really taking its own turn on the angophone crisis and we really think that uh people really have to uh have some reservations you know uh because for this war crisis to get to an If we do not come together to actually and in angophone style in angophone you don't get up and say you're a leader that is one thing I must say because most of the leaders that we have there are self-proclaimed angophone have a culture of designating their leaders this IS IT SO NOBODY WILL GET UP ONE DAY AND SAY THERE'S a leader of the angophone separatist or the angophone of this and that is why when I saw the move of some angophone to say that they're coming together in concerted voice to be able to designate or able to come of modalities and how we can come together and chat a way forward. I already knew that something good was supposed to come because this is the way the angopones they do. Don't get up from your village and get up and say that you because and that is now the power of the gun. The power of the gun makes you feel that you have to push everybody down and that's why I talk about dictatorship and autocratism because you use the gun now to watch other people and with a gun there is no democracy. With a gun there's dictatorship. So we need a concerted voice. Let those who are even fighting come together and say that we have designated this person that we even be our general major. Yes. And they have designated it. We were say say yes and now we can now say the major come for a negotiation. Let them be able to negotiate and see how we can end this thing.
>> Good evening Mr. Kung. Kudos to you guys in the studio watching from Sa in Bamea.
Dr. Dancho should know that uh government declared a war. Let's take a cease fireg Ignash.
That is also something we have to debate for another day. Sir, please in God's name we the population of motor needs the help of the Lima city council or the government. It's too much already.
Please in God's name Lima city mayor. Uh help us. Um I don't know. Um can you write me more on what you want? Just write me after the program please. Um because now I'm focused on what is happening here. Just write me after the program. I will look into what you want me to put out there and if possible I will do I'll do I will do that. Let me take some messages. Good evening Mr. Kum. Kudos to you guys in the studio.
Thank you. Good evening to all the panelists. Uh your program is very educative. You are putting a square peek in the square hole. Um um Kumbu from Santa. Good evening to you. Please Mr. Can the last panelist explain what he meant by saying that the conflict can end within 6 months? Yisa promise is watching from Amenda.
Good even Mr. Leu. I'm enjoying the program. War is business and the people who don't belong to any of the party suffers. Good evening. I'm Peter watching from Bmena. Good evening to everyone in the studio. This is PE war from Bmena. We already understand that there are funds kept aside to sponsor the wars. Also, let us allow the funds for the road works that uh were dispense to fix roots in Bmena to be fully put to use without any disruptions. Okay.
Greetings uh to you all in the studio.
This is Reverend Joseph Obi in Benda.
Please I want us to consider what is happening in the northwest and southwest as purely the hand of the devil and engage in prayers everywhere. Let all the churches become like one person then pray to God even declare national fasting and I believe this will come to an end. Good evening Mr. Leu watching from Quen for men that great job to you guys. wish you wisdom in all your work and God bless you all from not Lawrence.
Good evening to you.
Um okay. Um yes we will continue our program.
What about the international community?
Are they benefiting anything from the disorder that uh we see in Cameroon and Africa as a whole? Why have they also gone very silent about what's happening here?
>> Yeah, the international community should first of all be very guilty to the fact that they are the the major cause of this problem, the root cause.
>> Okay.
>> Yes. They are the major cause of this problem because they created this problem. They created it from the foundation by by by by by causing a a a trust territory and making them to join another territory.
That is the root cause. You better give the three options and let the people choose.
>> You don't subtract an option. If the three options were there and the people choose to join their brothers and sisters, there would have been virtually no recourse of what is happening today.
So the international community is very guilty and I think that the international community needs to apologize to all Cameroonians for being unfair in 1961.
They were unfair to the southern Cameroon and the northern Cameroon. It's not just this one. So they the root cause. Then moving from there you have now the 1972 saga which was still again an insinuation of the international community. It was an insinuation of the international community. So these are some of the truths I'm saying that if we want to bring this conflict to an end Mr. Leo the international community has a hand. The international community has a hidden hand. They are working behind with the government and they also working behind with the separatist. The international community has a hand and the international community has a benefit because as it stands now the international community has a lot of investments in Cameroon. When we talk about the oil being drilled and being sold is being drilled by the international community. The international community has a strong hand behind what is going on and and and and it's high time Cameroonians come back to themselves and to realize that they are giving an advantage to the international community because when there is war when there is an armed conflict one of the set of people who benefit the most are the international communities because they use it they take advantage they sell arms and they sell other services and this does not help us in any way. So I wish to say that the international community carries the highest blame before the government the now the ambassadians but nevertheless we cannot end it. That's why I say this conflict can end in 6 months if we desire. I have a model that I've worked on in 6 months. This conflict comes to an end.
>> Okay. You have a model. But I wanted to make a correction. Um you insinuated that um you give you give the impression that it is only um the British Cameroons that got independence by joining. Um we have uh British Somali land and Italian Somali land that merged. Uh we have the situation in uh I'm sure that is in Tanzania where we have Tanga and Zanziba and there is a part there's also a part that went to Togo because Togo was also under the German yeah I just wanted this for you study all those cases that went like that they have problems. Yes, I would. No, >> because of that >> I'm not I'm not saying that there is serious conflict in those countries that had that my problem is let us not give the impression that the only there are some other countries most of those countries that had that type of of independence they they still conflict most of them are still in conflict >> and also part part of part of Cameroon join Nigeria. So this was not only specific to us >> that part that join in Nigeria also have internal >> I'm just passing I'm just passing information has NIGERIA INTERNAL THAT NORTHERN PART THAT joins Nigeria has conflict >> yeah but Bafra Bafra also has showing THAT THOSE issue of joining >> yeah but >> studying it brought conflict and most of those confidence >> which part of Nigeria BFRA join because they're also having problems.
>> No, no, no. I'm not saying saying that the Bafraan joined. No. I'm saying that those facets, those territories, >> the joint, the DFC is in war for more than uh 40 years today, which part joined which >> I'm not saying that those countries that have war must necessarily be that. I'm saying that those territories that joined during any if you study event we realize that they are in conflict.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Uh they are in conflict. I want us to be thinking of a way out of the current situation.
>> Yeah. And I have my 6 months a which I've worked on. So if the government is willing I can release it in 6 months this conf to an end. What what is the reading you have of the international community? It says the international community is largely uh to be blamed for what is happening in in Cameroon. But I think that I had an interview with Dr. Simon Muzu who said that they went uh to the United Nations and they were granted a 26 minutes audience and they were told um that actually the United Nations provided very little uh solution to their problem. This issue has been taken to the court also in the Gambia and the issue has been uh trashed severally. I'm sure there is u somebody who was interviewed I'm sure by Chrisu a British I don't know whether it's a diplomat or something but he said that they had done their job. Should we at this point still think that it is the United Nations it is the international community that has to come and undo what what happened in >> Not at all. Not at all. I would think because uh remember that this is this has square this crisis has square from the NC on goals and you know NC also had the objective of separating uh the southern Cameroon from republic and they are the ones who they even did it legally they took this matter to the people's and human courts in the African Union and the matter was judged not for one year not for two years not for three year for some years and the end of it all they gave them the judgment and said they have understood them but they have realized that they do not have any grounds of talking about separation because they when we talk about separation it means as if they had maybe a different Korean master who was even though we are under a trusteeship but no Korean master after he annex us as an independent country where to talk about we want to be ourselves and they advised the NCNC to come that The African Union can support in the fact that they should form a political party. That is why they to the NCNC and the NCNC had maybe almost a natural debt before. Now they took up with other issues. Now the people of NC now join the ADF when this crisis started there of the Ambazian defense forces. Now va. So I think that to say that we are blaming the international community is really it will be an overstatement. You may be partly because when you even look at Britain, you know, people had even gone to Britain and they were talking about how Britain had uh actually played a part in what has happened with sav and I mean in the British parliament they looked at I mean they think for them is no event they say but the world is changing you guys instead of looking ahead you going back to 1961 there's a question they as one of them and for them it was no issue they said but what did these people asking for something 1961 instead of looking ahead you want to go back to 1961 and do what? So it is a problem and that is why you will now see the uh you know the lacadical manner in which the international community has taken this issue. I was taken her back uh two years ago when Mron came to Cameroon and people were expecting Mron to talk about the anon crisis. You know what mron talked about? He stood there and talk about the Ukraine war and when he was asked about the issue of the ang that's an internal thing that's internal crisis which Cameroon can solve that he's talking about an international crisis that people know how can you not talk about internal crisis and that only added to what it added to what Scott and partisa Scotland OF THE COMMONWEALTH CAME TO Cameroona and did and when it was come people were expecting that there was going to be some negotiation about independence partic from the commonwealth came to give a sympathy from the commonwealth about what is happening in Cameroon and even she was even shocked that this is what is happening that people instead of people coming together they wanted to separate that was not all the secretary general came and people thought it was she was coming to broker a piece with she rather CAME TO SYMPATHIZE with the president of and say well he's sorry that this thing is happening in his country that instead of people wanting to come together they want to separate. What is more, Musam Muhammad of the the then chairman of the African Union was coming to Cameroon to brooker a peace as people thought when they spread him the red carpet he passed there received his gifts and went back.
Now you realize that the issue of the even gutter the secretary general the almighty secretary general of the UN came to Cameroon and people were expecting good I remember there were good stands all over in the north west and south west because good is coming to broker a peace and give independence but was only coming to sympathize with Cameroon and say we are sorry that you have THIS IN CAMEROON. SO IT IS AN issue to say that the international community uh yes they have a regard and like America will say we are really disturbed and worried. This is a statement of America this time. We are very very disturbed and worried about what is happening in the northwest and southwest of Cameroon. Disturbed and worried you know you they cannot permanent friends are those who share permanent diplomatic gifts and that is what America is looking for. You will not expect Donald Trump to come and solve the problem of Cameroon. Donald Trump looks at what will benefit Americans. You don't expect Maron Macron to leave his France and come and solve THE ANGOPHONE PROBLEM. SO OUR PROBLEM will be solved by us and therefore to say that the angoon the international community has been unjust to Cameroon to me I would say I would take a pinch of salt because each person to each person his interest and each person his problem that he's solving let us solve our problem. But but but but now but now uh if we have to tax uh the international community um have they been able to solve the problem in Ukraine? I'm not sure.
>> This is not a question because the UN has not solve any problem.
>> They have not been able to solve the problem in the DRC which has been ongoing for for decades now. Uh the war in the Palestine and the Israeli they have not been able to solve. I'm not sure is the international committee that is going to solve the war between the US and Iran. So I don't really know uh how what magic we expect the UN to to to solve in this uh situation.
>> Yes, we are not saying that the international community will solve this problem. We are saying that >> there when you go to the root cause >> they are implicated but this problem will only be solved by Cameroonians.
>> Okay. Uh good evening once more Mr. Leo the panelist from Bua has to revise his history notes concerning the plebit options. Furthermore in a war of separation dialogue is only after a defeat or surrender. If Ambaz Amazonians want dialogue because people are suffering they should surrender.
Christopher is writing from Bmena.
This one says, "The international community has had a limited involvement in this issue since the 1960s. Reports of gunfire and violence have been relatively infrequent until early 2016 when it became evident that a group of miscreants had taken control and exacerbated the disorder. Does this mean they had to wait for 50 years before acting?" Okay. Good evening to everyone and Peter for mile 4. You guys are doing a great job and this is very nice program. Mr. Leu, I like your program.
I'm Julia Berry writing from Kumba. The government should not negotiate with those thieves call themselves ambass.
Okay. Um now um how do we cut off this this um I don't know whether they are parasites those who are benefiting from this from this uh conflict so that it can come to an end because when people no longer see their interest in a fight they may have to have a change of mindset >> but you know Mr. you uh benefit is part of every conflict.
>> Okay.
>> Yes. Uh there I can't really say that you can cut up all the benefit the benefit that people are having from a war.
>> Mhm.
>> Because there is a war because there are benefits.
>> Mhm. If there are no benefits, there will be no war. And therefore to cut benefits, if really we have to, then we have to be able to erase that urge that you know uh the demand for what we had in 2016 or the demands that the angophons they have. That is the only way in which we can cut the edge >> because if it is not through sales of arm, it is through other means that people eat from the wall. You remember that when this was that was in 2018. Uh one separatist leader was uh alry spotted in England with a a a mallet and he was supposedly going to sign contracts already with an international so that they said you cannot get the benefit of war. I appears as if some people had already even sold the minerals the minerals that we have in Angun region. and promising that as they will be I mean they who wanted to buy that they will be independents and they will be the one exploiting the minerals.
SO YOU FIND THAT IT IS IN ALL dimensions there are benefits. It is in all dimensions be it socially, be it militarily, be morally, be economically and all there are benefit and they will all be. Now for those who do not those who want to minimize your benefits, we have to come together and negotiate and that there should be flexibility in the negotiation because negation is about giving and take. You look at the consequences that you have had in having a war and let angophone sit and say okay we are born so for so long a time. It is a right time that that should end and that we are not ready to lose any or to spear any blood any longer because no drop of blood is equal any political ambition of anybody and that my brother M will not go and ri and cause ri because he wants to be a mayor because I know he's a good man he's a a democrat and only those who as I said want to take things by force create what they call create conflict create disorder in order to get what they want. And mostly those things are often being sponsored from abroad and they sponsor from abroad and they pass through us. But because we have the desire, we are leers or misers.
We are misers because there are most people who have money until they only want to look at the money and they are satisfied. They are not even spending.
But because we we are led into accepting that we can sell our own brothers. We are the judases and get for money then we accept that they should be benefit that other people should be benefited because you even look at the boys who are fighting in the in the bush in the northwest and southwest many of them will not live to enjoy anything about life. MANY of them ARE BEING KILLED WHEN they are not enjoying anything about life. But who is that? who is enjoying the guys who are brokering the deals and buying the arms and sending to them and they taking ransom maybe sending to them or what or any other way. So you find that we need to be able to forgo these deals and actually prioritize what saves life. As I usually say anything that saves life is good. And as someone say in 2017 and 2018, the moment we started bringing blood into this cause, he knew that it was a lost cause and we need even need to even think longer. The moment we started slaughtering people, the moment we started stealing blood, the moment we started putting people on on toad and tying them in the bushes very alive, that is when we knew that we have come to the end of this uh crisis of this ideology and that only only sadist would take over the crisis. And now the crisis is being run by sadist. Those who do not have any human feelings, those who do not have any feeling for human being, they are the people are running the crisis now. Because uh you will not put down hospitals, you will not block root, destroy roots, Jesus rules. It means that you can only be a satis because when you do that, it means you don't have any uh regard for the future. You do not think about women, childbearing. You don't think about uh children who are supposed to go to school. You do not think about sick people. You do not think about hunger and famine. You only think about yourselves and your selfish ambition.
And that is why we are where we are today. And therefore to cut the benefit that those people they have. It is for a concerted action for people to come out and shame them and turn the slogan from our boys to our saddest from our boys to our enemies. And it is only there that we will begin to uh actually sell them out. I mean be able to bring to uncover their hideouts and let them know that we are born. We have suffered so much and we do not wish to suffer any longer.
Since they're becoming sensitive to our suffering, we also need to become insensitive to their own plight and their highlights and pronounce and sell them out. Now, how do we get uh peace in all of this? Um by by by stopping the benefits that many persons are reaping from this. You want to tell me about your proposal. Uh but away from your proposal, what if government refuses to listen to to what you say and says um we are we are implementing the recommendations of uh the major national dialogue and the separatist themselves except you want to say that you're talking on behalf of the separatist. You may you drop this proposal and the separatist say we don't identify ourselves in what you you proposing.
>> Yes. That's why I still I me made measure the fact that the government should take our responsibilities. Mhm.
>> This thing will still go around and still come back to the the government.
>> Mhm.
>> And that is why blame will still go back to the government to have allowed this thing to go this far because it was very easy to stop this thing even before it reached the stage of arms.
>> But now that it has reached this stage, it's still very easy to bring it to an end. And that's why I say again that the government have to do considerations.
There come a time where a government sits and say okay enough is enough >> let us sit down and look into this issue and where we come out with a compromise win-win compromise let's fix our nation and move ahead I think that is what the people are waiting be they the separatist be they the thieves that have joined the group now and they are causing all type of havoc everything is is moving left and Right? Because it has overdrafted.
>> Let the government take her responsibility and the responsibility as I said again is to start with the point of ceasefire and then again to appease the people and to to to make trust to boost trust. You release free all political prisoners that are linked to this including this animal and the rest so that they should constitute those that will sit for them and I believe that we as Cameroonians we have a very good country it's possible to strike a deal and this comes to an end and we start a new life.
>> Now uh let me just put this uh straight uh to you. Are you saying that if government refuses uh to do as you're saying because you say the people are waiting for it the killings the kidnappings and everything should go on?
>> No I don't think that government will refuse Mr. Kum I don't think that government will refuse. No, let's assume let's assume that
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