KARL FIRES UP: 'Is There One Rule For Some and Another For Everyone Else?'

[00:00:04]Evening everyone. Well, a Perth doctor who fled Australia to join ISIS and became known as Dr. Jihad has reportedly been found alive after being presumed dead for more than a decade. We could all be so lucky. Well, he wants to come home. And I bet the Aussie government can't do anything about it given he's a citizen. All of this comes days after the news that an alleged ISIS bride who recently returned from Syria was granted bail. Anyone else feeling uneasy about that? Well, former AFP officer David [music] Craig sure is.

[00:00:37]>> Danger is radical Islam. More dangerous than white supremacists and all these other ugly idiots that are out there.

[00:00:44]The most fatal, the most dangerous is radical Islam. Don't try and play victim when really you're the aggressor.

[00:00:49][music] And is two-tier policing, like we've seen in the UK, a disturbing possibility here in Australia? A Perth mother is demanding answers after the teenager accused [music] of a brutal machete attack on her son walked away without punishment. A warning, the vision you're about to see is confronted.

[00:01:15]and the local counselor who was escorted out by police for asking questions >> removed today for what I think and feel.

[00:01:28]>> And the 24year-old country girl fighting to stop the government from running transmission lines smack bang through her family's farm. [music] This is Carl Weekly. Let's get into it. You know, everywhere we travel with the Carl Stephanovic Show, we hear the same thing. It's hard to employ people in Australia. It's way too hard. Rising costs, thousands of pages of fair work rules, edge cases everywhere. They're like the flies. It's so annoying. Even trying to do the right thing, you're one step away from doing the wrong thing.

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[00:02:24]So, if you've got employees, check them out at tander.com.auu.

[00:02:30]You won't regret it. And first up, an alleged ISIS bride has been granted bail despite AFP warnings she poses a risk to the community. Her kids, let me tell you, weren't waking up to Bluey and Vegemite toast? Hardcore ISIS propaganda videos. So, is the government taking the threat seriously? What do you reckon?

[00:02:54]Former AFP counterterrorism officer David Craig joins me now. Hey, David.

[00:02:59]Great to talk with you again. Um, you know, in a year where I continually get shocked, um, this ISIS bride being allowed out on bail rocked me to my core given what the AFP had warned.

[00:03:14]>> How did you view it?

[00:03:16]>> Uh, it was it was absolutely shocking, Carl. Uh, I mean, they're only allegations, but the allegations are extremely serious. So, I mean, the fact that, you know, the allegations that she uh encouraged her children to view is uh, you know, radical um footage, the fact that she encouraged her children to imitate ISIS uh members, um the fact that she tried to recruit other people.

[00:03:40]Now she's got bail, she could do all of those things again. There is nothing to stop her showing her children radicalized stuff, recruiting other people that are friends, u or getting her children to to um imitate or emulate um ISIS fighters.

[00:03:58]I mean, that's the Bale hasn't might she might have got bail for those other offenses committed overseas, but the same offenses can now be committed here because she's got bail. Now, she may not be doing that. Let me ask you this because again I I I was more than mildly irritated because I presume the AFP when they warn a magistrate that someone could pose a risk to the community, they mean it.

[00:04:29]Yeah. The AFP don't say these things lightly, Carl. Uh, and I know the magistrate, look, he's assessed that there's no risk to the community based on a psychological report. Well, I mean, the Green River killer in America had two psychologist reports and he killed 44 people. So, you know, I mean, I I think that there's a risk and an unacceptable risk for this person to be in the community. They they're good bail conditions, but is the person subject to a control order? like they should be uh subject to a federal control order so we can control exactly who she speaks to, who she relates to, and what she's saying, where she can go, the whole bit.

[00:05:07]She needs to be under surveillance 24/7.

[00:05:09]That's my opinion.

[00:05:12]>> Well, I mean, she could be under surveillance um 24/7 by not being out in the community. is are the courts magistrates out of step do you think with the risk level here that the AFP is suggesting the Victorian court system is generally very soft Carl I mean they they have I I don't know why but they are very um very lax when it comes to looking at risk I mean we we how many children you know these are children offenders have been let out on bail in Victoria and reaffended when this is knife crime with machetes and stuff. The magistrates are definitely out of touch and uh they shouldn't be immune from making these sorts of decisions.

[00:06:00]>> Do the laws need to be strengthened? I mean, I just I can't fathom how how a magister would look at that and go, you know what, this is going to be fine. Um, and I know this is a big leap, but given Bondi, um, given the state of of terror threat in this country, a and the the amount of evidence that seemingly the AFP, you know, has on this particular person, you know, I I just can't comprehend how any normal magistrate would make that decision.

[00:06:31]>> Yeah, it it beggars belief, Carl. I you know uh I mean if if it's true that she she was married to one ISIS fighter who got killed and then she got married to another ISIS fighter who got killed, she's clearly hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid and so you know just drifted off. This is an ideology a hardcore hardwired ideology in this person and and I don't think it is safe for her to be in the environment. Um and I don't think it's safe for her kids to be exposed to her.

[00:06:59]I mean, the kids aren't watching Bluy.

[00:07:02]They're watching terrorism propaganda videos. I mean, I don't know. I don't know that you can take a risk on that.

[00:07:09]The one thing that government needs to do and the one thing that the courts need to do is is to keep the community safe. Uh what's happened to the priority system?

[00:07:21]>> Well, K, I know you've just been uh uh to the UK. I was over there myself interviewing people for some uh terrorism stuff that I'm working on. Um and the UK is an absolute mess because of the soft approach that people have had. The Henry Noak killing, things like that. I mean, this is the same stuff.

[00:07:38]This is the same almost two-tier policing where if it's >> someone that is um Muslim, the courts and the public and everyone are too scared to call it out based on facts.

[00:07:50]Now, I I I don't hate Muslims. Not at all. But I hate radical Islamics and I will call it out because I don't want Australia to go down the same track as a UK where we just end up with a a horrible situation socially.

[00:08:05]>> Well, the alleged behavior is radical.

[00:08:07]There's no there's no hiding that. Um and the AFP have said that have have almost pleaded with the magistrate um to not let them out on bail. all of this when the reason why I pepper you about this is because you know we've just seen that release from the prime minister about Islamophobia the big you know the big announcement on Saturday morning about that and there is a curriculum um quote you know a portion of that that's going to be taught in our schools but if our courts can't handle it then then what hope do our schools have.

[00:08:47]>> Yeah. Car also in relation to the education.

[00:08:51]This is only relating to state funded schools, the AC schools, not Islamic schools. They don't need any training on social cohesion.

[00:09:03]It's only the state schools. I I think if we're serious about um Islamophobia or about social cohesion is a a much better term um the education is important um and and getting young minds involved uh early on getting people to integrate not separate uh like this funding from from Madak uh has said in his report this whole big funding uh mess of stuff that will be simply ineffectual.

[00:09:34]You know, there's some there's some also some very strange stuff in there, like the author suggesting that we should weaken counterterrorism laws. Um, and Albo fortunately stepped into that one um to prevent it from happening. But does that also say something about the credibility of the report?

[00:09:51]>> Absolutely, Carl. Like I mean when when um Malik was talking about changing the definition of terrorism and removing religion and ideology from it, I mean that is so ridiculous. I mean, it's terrorism that kills people and it's counterterrorism that stops it. And to run effective counterterrorism that is stopping mass murder, you need accurate data. You need to know exactly what you're dealing with. What Malik was wanting to do was to brush over everything and make it more hard to know where we would have data obiscation. We can't measure it. We can't react to it.

[00:10:23]We can't intervene. I mean, it's it's absolutely ridiculous.

[00:10:27]>> But but here's the point, too, and I keep coming back to it. I'm sorry. I just ruffled my feathers. um greatly is that that we've got all these announcement uh you know driving all of that. Um we've got you know this this preoccupation and focus on and and rightly so on you know on trying to stop that kind of you know hate on the streets. But then you have the other message of okay you know what you go over and fight for ISIS or um you become a member of a caliphate and you know your husband goes off and fights you and your kids are over there that you've said goodbye to Australia. Then you come back to Australia. Um you've taught your kids everything about, you know, allegedly about, you know, the movement and terrorism. And then you come back to Australia. You know what?

[00:11:15]You'll be back in your home. You'll be back having your Vegemite toast and watching Blueie Quicks smart as soon as you get out. I mean, that kind of mixed messaging is a huge flaw.

[00:11:28]>> Absolutely. and and and part of it is the precedence that's been set with other other offenses, Carl. Um they they need to take the courts need to take a stiffer approach to this because one of the things the magistrate did consider in this case was that she may be in remand longer than the sentence. Well, then that's the problem is then that the sentencing isn't good enough because as you say, I mean these these people um they absolutely hate everything we stand for. They are fighting for a global caliphate. These are Islamic Nazis that are wanting to take over. I mean, I'm not talking about Muslims, the good. I'm talking about the jihadism. The the people that are wanting military might to take over and they think there's a holy war going on. And there's there actually isn't when no one's fighting them. It's okay. You know what I mean?

[00:12:18]like um for example in this report um Malik recommended and and Albanese is going to pay for a $15 million um Islamic sports center. Now how is that going to help Islamophobia?

[00:12:33]>> How I I mean I've only had, you know, quarter of a century exposure to the subject and I can't work it out. But >> I don't know. Every little person every person that walks past there that's not Muslim goes, "Well, I can't go in there." This is about separation. That's not about integration. How about a multiffaith center? What about a multifaith sport center where we get Jewish people and and atheists and everyone and play sport for the sake of playing sport, not tying it to a religion, >> you know, and what I worry about is that this stifles the debate and the conversations that we're even having now. And what is the next step? Is the next step that we're going to go to censorship? Is the next step that we're going to go to two-tier policing? I mean given you know what's happening with the courts and on the streets in the UK is that going to be replicated here? There is a slippery slope here and it feels like we're at the top of the slide.

[00:13:27]Yeah. Carl, do you mind if I read you a quote from um uh from a guy I'll have to read it. Um Ahmed Tea. Now he's a political analyst from the UAE. So he's he's a devout Muslim, a political analyst. And this is exactly what he said last night when I was watching him.

[00:13:43]He said radical Islamists uh mainly the Muslim Brotherhood all around the world have been allowed to act in such a way in such a manner.

[00:13:51]Every time that you criticize them, they make it expensive for you. They will as soon as you call them Islamophobic, that's the terminology itself. It was created by the Muslim Brotherhood to stop debate. Now, our government is spending millions of dollars on what I say is is is a complete folly. If people feel a a fear of Islamic violence, well, maybe it's because there's been over 35,000 Islamic attacks since 911. Maybe it's because 88 Australians died from an Islamic attack in Bali in 2002. Another four died along with 109 other people in 2005 from an Islamic attack. On Australian soil only since 911, 51 people have been 51 Australians have been killed. If you add up all the types of terrorism and extremism deaths over the same period of time in Australia, it accounts for three. So, let's get our balance right here. The danger is radical Islam. More dangerous than white supremacists and all these other ugly idiots that are out there. The most fatal, the most dangerous is radical Islam. I I think also there there is some interesting dialogue around this and whenever um there is something about anti-semitism um and we've seen all of the things that have transpired in Australia um over the last couple of years but whenever that is mentioned it seem there seems to be a need on behalf of government um especially the current government um to come out and talk about Islamophobia um when the number of incidents aren't anywhere near each other.

[00:15:28]I mean, all of it's bad. All of it's bad. But but in terms of that the concrete amounts of what we're seeing on the streets, it's very different.

[00:15:37]>> Oh, absolutely. Look, Carl, I'll just give you a little window what I did when that that nut Australian shot up the mosque in in New Zealand.

[00:15:46]>> Um I went down to the to the local mosque in Brisbane in Dara and I just to greet all the Muslims coming to prayer to say this isn't what we stand for.

[00:15:54]This isn't what it's about. because that's the way I feel about religion.

[00:15:58]People should be free to do it. But >> um we need to call out what is bad though.

[00:16:05]>> And and what Malik has put forward is a a money grab and disguised under an vastly exaggerated um victimhood mentality. You know, it's it's not the it's it's the Islamic or it's Muslim nurses that in Bankstown that are talking about hurting patients that are Jewish.

[00:16:26]It's Islamics that are on the steps of the opera house chanting, "Where's the Jews?" I haven't seen one anti-Muslim protest in Australia. And if I did, I would be right against it, too, because we shouldn't be doing that. But don't try and play victim when really you're the aggressor.

[00:16:44]>> What does the AFP do with all this now?

[00:16:46]Um, you know, I mean, if I was working inside the AFP right now in regards to this, I mean, look at all the people they got to monitor. they finally got someone they can monitor. Um, they go into the court and they say, "This person shouldn't be let out given all the the evidence, the alleged, you know, stuff this woman's done." And the woman gets out anyway. I mean, the level of frustration they must be feeling inside that organization must be beyond.

[00:17:14]>> Yeah. And it's really hard KL because you know having worked in counterterrorism in the in the hardcore part of counterterrorism in the international and domestic uh market if you like I mean people carry this weight a lot they know if they make make the wrong decision people die >> and it's all riskbased it's you can certainly lose your career in a heartbeat but people can lose their lives just as quickly and the the hard thing with counterterrorism is we the offense can be committed with a push of a button.

[00:17:44]So, we can't wait for like a normal crime where it might be an armed robbery or something where if you don't get there on time, there'll be a, you know, some sort of fallout. We need to jump in straight away. We need to jump in straight away even if we won't get a prosecution because we've got to disrupt it. We've got to stop it. We've got to save lives. So, the the the um the the threshold for for looking at counterterrorism is so much lower or higher. Um and everyone feels a stress.

[00:18:12]There's a lot of stress in counterterrorism.

[00:18:15]>> Well, I'm sure and and I think there's stress on the streets as well. And I think decisions like this are made and we lose faith um in the system and and we all go, "Well, hang on a second. If if Bondi happened, um if this lady left the country or the bunch of them left the country and they were fighting or their their husbands were fighting for ISIL, they were indoctrinated um in the caliphat.

[00:18:40]It it it it makes us question whether or not we've got this here and and when is the next attack going to happen. A matter of, you know, when, not if.

[00:18:51]Well, um my dark prediction, Carl, is if they allow these 13 ISIS fighters back into Australia, that combination uh with the ISIS brides who are either radicalized or subservient to those that are radicalized, that the Australian uh people can expect a terror uh terrorism attack within 5 years of those 13 people coming back. And it will be one of them or it will be a close associate because these are heroes when they come back, Carl. That's the how they're viewed.

[00:19:21]They they fought the good fight for God.

[00:19:23]That's what that's the way they're treated in the community.

[00:19:26]>> God help us all. David, appreciate your time as always.

[00:19:30]>> No worries. It was a lot of fun. Let us know what you think about that story in all the comments below. Well, now 17-year-old Lucas Jman was left unconscious and slashed three times with a machete after an attack at a Perth house party. His family says police failed to help him. and the attacker walked away with virtually no punishment. Lucas's mom, Lisa, joins me now. Lisa, thank you so much uh for spending some time with us. I I've just seen this horrific vision of the attack.

[00:20:05]I mean, how are you feeling?

[00:20:07]>> Absolutely gutted for my son. Um yeah, Carl, to be honest, what he's what he's gone through since April is just absolute hell. Yeah.

[00:20:17]>> Tell me what happened.

[00:20:19]Uh 3rd of April, it was Good Friday.

[00:20:22]Lucas went to a party in Mandari with one of his good mates. It was just the two of them.

[00:20:29]They weren't there long, you know, maybe an hour out the back talking to some girls by the pool. Um and there was some um boys there that started on Lucas's friend, started being aggressive. Lucas got in between them and just said, "Leave it." They've turned on Lucas and um they just knocked him unconscious straight away.

[00:20:50][sighs and gasps] Uh Lucas woke up. He could hear the commotion had been moved out the front of the house. He's ran through to check on his friend and when he's got there, he seen one of the boys had a knife to his friend's throat. Um and he um he knew he had to he had to help his friend. So he's jumped in and that's when they've turned on Lucas again.

[00:21:15]Um, and Lucas tried to defend himself, but when you have 10 pack animals jumping on you, he had no chance.

[00:21:24]>> I can feel that this is still very raw for you. Um, it is your boy. What What happened next?

[00:21:32]>> Um, Lucas woke up after being knocked unconscious again out the front and he saw his friend laying there and he he picked him up and he said, "We've got to run. Like, let's run."

[00:21:43]and they started running down the street, but the boys that were attacking him had already called more people.

[00:21:49]So, as they've got to the end of the street, there was car loads of boys that pulled up and um and they got Lucas again. And um the whole thing was recorded. Um I haven't watched it, but they've they've knocked him unconscious again.

[00:22:08]while he's unconscious. There's one boy that he used my son's head as a soccer ball while he was unconscious.

[00:22:17]There was another one slashing his legs with a machete.

[00:22:23]Um so Lucas was, you know, he was he was unconscious. It's in the video.

[00:22:29]and um he's come to his woke up, but he's pretended he's still knocked out because he's got these boys around him watching the videos of what they've just done to him laughing.

[00:22:41]>> Oh my god.

[00:22:42]>> Um so he's pretended he's still still unconscious and he said, "Mom, I thought that was it. Like if they knew I woke up that they would have killed me."

[00:22:51]So he just laid there quiet and then he heard the police in the street.

[00:22:57]All these boys that attacked him were still in the street, but he's got up. He thought, "The police are here. I'm I'm I'm safe."

[00:23:06]He's got up and walked back up the street to where the party was, where the police were.

[00:23:12]And he's got there and he said to the officer, "I need an ambulance. My shoulder's broken."

[00:23:19]Um, he'd been beaten. He was covered in blood.

[00:23:23]Um, and the officer ignored him. He just ignored his pleas for help.

[00:23:30]Um, Lucas saw his friend there. His friend was bleeding from the head quite badly.

[00:23:39]Him and his friend were talking and the police have um told them to leave.

[00:23:44]Get the [ __ ] out of the street is what they said. Uh, they don't want you here.

[00:23:49]Lucas started walking down the street when an officer got in his car, drove down the street, got out of his car, put Lucas's hands behind his back, and slammed him into a fence and said, "We've told you. Get the [ __ ] out of the street." And threw him. When Lucas told me this, I thought, you know, sometimes kids can stretch it a bit. I thought it's the police. I don't think that's going to happen.

[00:24:13]Um, I went door knockocking on every single house in that street and I spoke to a neighbor there who witnessed the whole attack.

[00:24:23]Um, he said when police came, he told me, "I saw your boy walking up to the police." He said, "I actually did think his shoulder was broken. It was his arm was just sort of dangling and he was holding it." Um, he said, "I heard the off him say to the officers, I need an ambulance help."

[00:24:39]Meanwhile, all the attackers are still in the street. The police have driven past them in the street to get to Lucas.

[00:24:46]It just Yeah.

[00:24:52]>> What? Um, who were these these guys? I mean, this gang, >> who were they? Lucas went to school with them, so he knows them. A handful of them he went to school with.

[00:25:07]Um, so they were Sudin, all Sudin boys, and there was one white boy.

[00:25:16]Um, the white boy was arrested within days of this happening.

[00:25:20]He was arrested.

[00:25:23]Within days.

[00:25:25]Um, I had to fight with the police every day. I was fighting with them every day to do something. Lucas knows these boys.

[00:25:32]He went to school with them. He knows their names. There's a video of the attack. Why are you not making any arrests? You're going to arrest these boys and you're going to charge them for what they've done to my son.

[00:25:43]Um, so I fought with police every day. Um, I done a 7 News interview that went to air on the Saturday night. Sunday morning I had an inspector come to my house.

[00:25:59]He didn't know I recorded him, but I did. I've got an 18-minute video of him sitting in my house.

[00:26:04]telling me that my son was the aggressor that night.

[00:26:09]I asked him why wasn't an ambulance called for Lucas. An ambulance wasn't called in his exact words, well Lucas showed no signs of injury.

[00:26:18]Lucas was covered in freaking blood. He showed no signs of injury.

[00:26:23]>> What happened then afterwards that they got this guy or one of them?

[00:26:28]>> Yes. They've charged four um the first boy he has plead guilty and I found out last week that he got no he got no um yeah >> conviction.

[00:26:43]>> Yeah. No conviction. No conviction. So he got away with what he done to my son.

[00:26:48]How does that work? How do you try and kill someone? Which is what they done.

[00:26:53]They tried to kill my son that night.

[00:26:56]It wasn't just, you know, it could if it was a one-on-one fight and Lucas lost, you lost a fight. That happens. It wasn't. They mobbed him. He had no chance to defend himself whatsoever.

[00:27:08]>> How does the community feel about this?

[00:27:11]A and also the police response.

[00:27:15]>> The community are angry. There's a group of parents. Um, a lot of people reached out to me when this happened. um when it went onto social media um that these same group of boys have done it to their kids as well. Um so there was a group of us that met um so what we wanted to do was start a petition through the WA government to introduce a mobbing law. These boys were charged with assault. Um it's not assault.

[00:27:46]I could come and touch you on the shoulder. You could charge me with assault if you wanted to. It's they didn't assault him. They mobbed him. It needs to be more serious than what it is. It's It's not assault. They mobbed him. So, we would like to introduce a new law through the WA Parliament, a mobbing law with harsher penalties.

[00:28:08]>> You wanted to call it um Lucas's law. Um what sort of hope do you have for that given the response you had even on the night? I mean, this is the frustration on on behalf of every parent, you know, in Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, you know, where violence is happening on the streets with young offenders. It's so hard.

[00:28:31]>> It is. And it's so hard because um I want to be upfront and honest with you.

[00:28:36]There is uh there's a lot more to this story, things that happened after Lucas's attack. Um and but for ongoing legal matters, I just I can't discuss it. you know, there's there's a lot that has happened to Lucas since his attack.

[00:28:49][sighs] Um, yeah, but I want you to know I'm I'm not hiding anything and I'm being transparent as as I'm allowed to be. But when that's all said and done, I would love to sit with you and tell you the whole story cuz this is half of it. But I have absolutely zero faith in the police after the way they've treated Lucas, what they've done to Lucas.

[00:29:11]No, he's a kid. He's 17 years old. He just left school, started an apprentichip, got his license. Life was just starting.

[00:29:17]>> How's he doing now?

[00:29:20]>> Um, Lucas has been diagnosed with PTSD.

[00:29:24]Um, physically he's good. He's healed, but [gasps] mentally he's not the same boy he was before the 3rd of April. What these animals done for him and then to have no conviction, just, you know, a slap on the wrist, don't do it again, Johnny.

[00:29:42]It's not good enough. He's not good enough. I had to fight with the police to do their job. I fought with police. I wouldn't and I told them I'm not going to stop until charges are laid.

[00:29:53]So, they've charged them. Put him in front of a magistrate. How do you hold the magistrate accountable for this?

[00:29:59]What if it was her kid? No conviction.

[00:30:02]It makes no sense.

[00:30:04]>> Well, I want you to um let us know how you go with the legal proceedings.

[00:30:10]And I mean, you must look at the news.

[00:30:12]Look at the news overseas and you you see what's happening everywhere at the moment.

[00:30:17]>> Not even overseas, over east in Melbourne. I mean, it's Yeah, it's it's coming to Perth. It's here.

[00:30:23]>> And what's your worry for the community from here?

[00:30:25]>> Safety. Who do you call when you can't call the police? The police won't deal with it. They've made that very clear from that night Lucas was attacked. They didn't want a bar of it. My boy stood there covered in blood asking for an ambulance. They left him. They left him in the street with the attackers. So, it's scary. It's a scary world when you think you have the police to help, but you don't. You're on your own. It's It's scary.

[00:30:49]>> Let us know how you go. Um, you know, I I think that what you've been through is truly awful.

[00:30:56]You are fighting this every step of the way. How are you doing?

[00:31:00]>> I've got to be strong. I've got to be strong for the kids. I'm Yeah, it's um it's I won't let it break me. I've Yeah, I've got to stay strong for Lucas.

[00:31:10]That's what I tell him. You You can't let this beat you. You've stay strong. Yeah.

[00:31:15]>> Will you stay strong, Lisa, and and stay in touch with us?

[00:31:19]>> I will. I did put in a um freedom of information request um to receive the body cam footage that night from the officers. Um but that was denied.

[00:31:30]I've put in complaints to the trip. I don't know how I get the body cam footage from that night. If they have nothing to hide, why don't they show me?

[00:31:39]When the inspector came to my house, I asked him, "Show me the footage from that night." He said, "No, it's too confronting."

[00:31:46]I'll decide if it's too confronting. Why is it hidden?

[00:31:49]>> Also, you can't say nothing happened when and then at a later date say it's too confronting. Um, look, there are there are many questions there. Um, keep fighting the fight, Lisa. Um and and we want to hear from you when when some of this is resolved and we'll do everything our end um to try and and keep the ball rolling on it because um it shouldn't happen to anyone else. We appreciate you being on the show.

[00:32:10]>> Yeah, it shouldn't. Thank you.

[00:32:11]>> It's unbelievable, isn't it? That a kid has to go through all that. A family, the system just needs to be fixed. Well, here's another one from the world has gone absolutely stark raving mad file.

[00:32:22]Don't get me started on councils, people. Do not get me started, but if you must get this into you. A counselor questioned a decision in a council meeting, refused to apologize, and ended up being removed by police. Well, now she's warning new rules could make it even easier to silence elected representatives, the wrong representatives, if you catch my drift.

[00:32:49]Kimberly Hone joins me now. Kimberly.

[00:32:52]Hey, Kimberly. a little troublemaker.

[00:32:55]>> Yeah, I'm I look very scary, don't I?

[00:32:59]>> You're very scary looking woman. Um tell us what happened.

[00:33:02]>> Um so I raised a concern in the chamber based on um preferences that were distributed to um a panelist or vice versa and it was quickly shut down and I was told to either retract that comment or apologize. Um, I said, uh, I'm happy to retract it if it's non-factual. Is what I'm saying non-factual? I wasn't given an answer on that. I said, "Well, I'm not apologizing for my feelings and my concerns." And then they said, "Okay, well then we'll have to forcefully well, first of all, we'll move the motion to remove you." And that's what they did.

[00:33:41]And then, um, I said, "This is, you know, I'm not leaving." Cuz I thought, "This is ridiculous. I mean, this is my job. This is what I'm paid to do. and this is what the people elected me to do. And so then they said, um, okay, well then we'll, uh, remove you with the police. So that's what they did.

[00:33:59]>> Okay. So it's one thing to have an objection in a meeting. Obviously, that would happen all the time in the process of things. But have you ever heard of the cops being called before?

[00:34:12]>> No, never. I've never witnessed police been called on any counselor. I don't even think around the nation.

[00:34:20]Yeah. It's it's um it's a it's a silencing tactic that we see from the left now, right? Do not raise a dissenting voice. Do not speak against the narrative. We control the dialogue.

[00:34:32]We will silence dissent and if we don't like what you have to say, we'll make you apologize for it or we will remove you.

[00:34:41]Under what law or or jurisdiction can the police enter that?

[00:34:48]>> Well, these are really good questions and some people have suggested that they don't actually have authority in that in that scenario. Um, but at the end of the day, the the police officer was called to I guess keep the peace. Um, and I don't think they were given the whole story because when the police officer turned up, he was pretty shocked about what he was being asked to do. He was embarrassed. He didn't want to be there and he actually kept apologizing to me.

[00:35:21]So, um, very odd. It's, um, it's an overreach of, you know, power and, um, it it also blurs the lines of what police duties are supposed to be about.

[00:35:33]we do have a separation of powers. Um, I should be allowed to discuss in the chain of the things that my constituents bring to my attention or any concerns that I have. And if I can't do that, then we've got a serious problem with our council and probably councils across the country if this is if this seems to be a common thing >> at every level of government. And you know, I was just sitting here thinking, I mean, I don't know where else this happens except for maybe in some parts of, you know, Europe, maybe China, um, to an extent, but this takes it to a whole new level in Australia when the police could be doing far better things. I mean, this is this is just ridiculous. It's absurd.

[00:36:15]>> Yeah. I mean, their job as police officers is to is to prevent crime, right? Um, there was no crime. There was no issue. you can everyone can go back and watch the recording. I was very peaceful. I raised a concern. I challenged that I was being silenced. Um and they didn't like the fact that I wasn't leaving. And I think that's what we I think those on the right need to start rising up and saying, you know what, I won't be silenced. This is not okay. Um but yeah, it's it's ludicrous.

[00:36:47]It doesn't make any sense. It's it's a crazy state of affairs I think we find ourselves in in Australia now. So what what happened afterwards?

[00:36:57]>> Um so afterwards um well in the in the meet in the um time that I was waiting for the police to arrive. I obviously was quite nervous and shocked because I thought what on earth is happening? Are they going to handcuff me? Like this is ridiculous. And I actually rang the local newspaper because I wanted somebody there who could film it because for my own safety. Actually rang my husband as well, but he couldn't get there fast enough. And um so the newspaper was pretty shocked and newspaper was saying um to me oh you should you should mediate mediate you know try and have a conversation and I said it's too late they've called the police on me this is all systems go you know and um so we live in a we live in a pretty greenleaning council area and um he I guess it could you could say that publications pretty greenleaning and leftleaning as well so he kind of didn't really to leave me. And until I said, "The police are here. I've got to go."

[00:37:56]Um, and then straight after that, I'm I'm very grateful because as I was leaving, another counselor had the fortitude to film the event on my behalf. So, very great grateful for that. And that's counselor Owen. And um so yeah, I got outside. My husband had arrived um at that stage and I just thought, "This is crazy. I'm going to get this out on social media." And then gratefully Barnaby picked it up which um made it go gang busters pretty quickly.

[00:38:26]Um I think we had um about two million views within like by that night. Um so it's it's quite a few million now. Um and and then Pauline Hansen picked it up. Um and yeah it and then it was just uncontrollable. It was everywhere pretty fast. So what does it mean now for any precedent in in council chambers when when things get a little funky? Has there been any kind of recourse? Has there been um any any issue blow back on the count? How have they explained calling the cops on a counselor?

[00:39:04]>> Yeah. So, this has been very um interesting to watch what the mayor has said in the media since um I have purposely stayed out of the details of the incident um and just listening and watching, but she has consistently said that um in in her defense that there's been no preferences, etc., stuff like that, try and defend the actual issue at hands. um and that there's a code that allows her to expel me from the chamber.

[00:39:37]So, there's questions that arise where you we have to start to think if there's a code that allows her to fall behind in order to silence me, then we have serious issues with the code. Now, in saying that, there is a new code that they're pushing for at the moment that will go out to public exhibit in about a week's time that gives the mayor the sole power to remove any distancing counselor um without it going to a vote. So, already we have an issue where a whole a few counselors don't like what I have to say. They voted against me. But if this new code goes ahead, I just need the mayor to not like what I have to say and she will vote against me.

[00:40:24]>> I'm astounded. I mean, there there is stuff going on all the time in this country at the moment, but that makes me shake my head. But but that at a local level is the most bizarre thing. I mean, I would have thought it's an abuse of power.

[00:40:38]>> Yeah, it absolutely is. At the end of the day, there's seven of us elected on council, right? We all represent the whole community. That's why with council, you have multiple counselors because you want to have a collection of voices. You want to be able to bring the voices together, have an open discussion. Um, and it's in these open discussions that good decisions are made. And without open dialogue and without that, you know, sometimes uncomfortable friction of competing voices, you get into a really dangerous state of almost tyranny really. If only one voice is allowed then it's it's very dangerous.

[00:41:17]>> Have you spoken to the mayor personally?

[00:41:20]>> No, I have not spoken to the mayor personally and council has not reached out to me either. But the mayor has gone out on um in her interviews in particular with the ABC big ABC um and have said that I she's going to try and push on me to apologize before I can return to my job to return to council.

[00:41:41]So, um I won't be apologizing ever for doing my job and for standing for the voicings of the people who elected me. Um yeah, I definitely won't be apologizing. So, um yeah, we'll we'll have to see. I'm going to continue to raise my concerns. Um my original concern was around panelists on planning panels in our area have done preferences with four of the counselors that booted these from the chamber. All four and I was highlighting that um he sits in a paid position. So for me that sounds precar. was questioning that and um it sounds like influence and so I'm not sure uh I didn't have a chance to question that on the public record um and in the chamber. So I might have to just push that challenge and those questions through social media instead.

[00:42:40]>> It's it's about it's about the most ridiculous thing I've I've ever just to remind me too. You weren't spitting, you weren't swearing. Um, you weren't involved in some kind of fisty cup because I know local council meetings can get pretty heated, but none of the above.

[00:42:55]>> No. No. So, I literally all I did is I raised a concern. Um, and I owned it. It was my opinion. Did not raise my voice.

[00:43:04]Did not get frustrated, angry. Um, and again, look, your viewers can go back and watch the recording for this for themselves. I know most people would rather poke themselves in in the eye with a fork than watch a council meeting, but look, I encourage you to to do that. Um, and yeah, have a look for yourself. It's like the first item of the agenda and I I was booted out pretty much on the first item of the agenda.

[00:43:28]Yeah, it was the saddest part is when I was forced to leave that day, I wasn't able to vote on the rest of the items in the meeting, which means not only did they silence me, but they silenced all the people that I represent, you know, and I had some concerns for the rest of that meeting, and I really wanted to vote on stuff. So, yeah.

[00:43:46]>> How did it make you feel? Oh, I was I'm I'm forever actually being shocked at the moment about our country and where we live and what is happening to our beautiful nation. Um it really concerns me that our democracy is being undermined by people who don't value what we have. And I often say, if you're going to destroy what we have, I hope you have got a really good plan to have something way better because there really isn't any other better. There's no other better plan. There's no plan B.

[00:44:20]When you destroy democracy, that's it.

[00:44:22]It's gone. So, um, that's it left me losing base actually in our democratic system and that that's really disappointing.

[00:44:35]>> Well, Kimberly, I'm sure you're on to bigger and better things. Um, I can't wait. Actually, I've never I've never in my life thought that I would say this.

[00:44:43]Um, but I I can't wait for the next council meeting. Um, hopefully you'll be out of Bogo Road jail by the time that one comes about. Um, and and keep fighting the good fight.

[00:44:54]>> Yeah, you too. Cancer culture is alive and well, but keep going. I love everything that you do.

[00:45:00]>> It is absolutely shocking to me that a question could be so offensive, we need to take police off the beat. Let us know if you've got a problem with the council and I'll climb into it because I like climbing into that sort of stuff. Well, now to 24y old Darcy Jervisone, six generation Victorian farmer fighting for her farm and her community. Across regional Australia, as you've seen on this show, families aren't only being smashed by rising costs, they're also facing the threat of massive transmission lines cutting up their farmland for renewable energy zones.

[00:45:36]Here's Darcy's story.

[00:45:39]>> Darcy, I want you to pretend for a second that I'm Anthony Albanzy.

[00:45:46]>> That's not going to really always end well.

[00:45:49]>> I don't want you to be violent.

[00:45:51]>> Not violent. It'll be more questioning your thought process through what we have endured and why you keep pushing this when a lot of the regions and a lot of the farmers are displaying that they're upset with what's happening and displaying as to the importance of our agricultural land especially on my level where I see our beautiful farmland that we have taken care of, we nurture, we love and you guys are just coming through and showing very little regard to the people who are growing the food for the nation. Okay. And I'm Anthony Albanzy. What are you guys whining about? Take me back.

[00:46:27]>> Well, [snorts] this all started back in 2020. It was in the middle of CO. We're all locked down and we got a text one day from a neighbor saying, "Hey, have you heard this? They're going to put power lines through our farm." We hadn't heard anything week later and a letter rocks up saying, "Yep, they're thinking of putting power lines through. We're all really confused. We're all locked down. We can't really communicate with each other. we can't join up, we can't do anything. We got very organized very quickly and found out who these people were. Found out what their plan was. A bit of a rough guide at the time they gave us. Since then, everything has gone really, really downhill. We have been treated very unfairly by this company.

[00:47:08]They've come onto our land without permission. They have tried to push their way onto our farms. They have been really mean to everyone. and they've pretty much tried to bully farmers into signing up for these power lines that we don't want.

[00:47:24]>> Okay, I'm going to stop being Anthony Albanzy cuz it's it's too hard. Um, also I don't want to freak you out. Um, when you say the transmission lines, we've covered this story on the Carl Stephanovic show. I've saw, you know, some of these meetings that you've had on social media. I've seen the outrage.

[00:47:40]I've seen the the pain. Um, I've seen the sadness. I've seen the frustration.

[00:47:47]what what where is it at now and what are they still trying to do? What are you seeing dayto-day?

[00:47:53]>> On the day-to-day, we're now at a bit of a a still point where we haven't got much happening. A few [snorts] months ago, we were fortunate enough to have our uh submission place just to discuss with an independent inquiry group why our issues need to be heard and what our issues are with it. on that. OSNET also put in their own counter inquiry as to why it should go through. We haven't heard anything back from that. That was submitted back in May from the independent inquiry to the state government. And since then, again, the state government has put legislation through that now allows compulsory acquisition of farmland for this project and for other similar projects. So they can just acquire your land for these transmission lines to cut straight through your property and and they they buy your land for whatever price and you'd have no choice.

[00:48:46]>> Yes, pretty much. Because no one was signing up to it. Nobody was agreeing to the terms that they were laying out to us >> and they can come onto your land then at any point and you have no recourse. You can't do anything about it.

[00:49:00]>> Yes.

[00:49:01]>> And what do these things look like? How much land do they take up? You know, it's good agricultural land. I don't think I've ever been on a farm. I've said this before, where every single bit of that land is important, right?

[00:49:13]>> Yes.

[00:49:14]>> So, so what how ownorous is it?

[00:49:16]>> So, these towers are going to be about 80 to 85 m, which a bit of comparison, that's about a light tower at the mcg.

[00:49:22]So, these are massive massive towers.

[00:49:24]They're putting through about 100 500 kilowatts of energy at any time, which is enormous amounts of energy. And we're going to have a exclusion zone of about 100 meters.

[00:49:35]>> That's cut that cuts a corridor straight through your property.

[00:49:38]>> Straight through the middle of it. Yes.

[00:49:40]Straight across. All farmers argue that their farmland is important and their farmland is loved. We're very much fortunate enough. We live on class one agricultural land. So this is classed as the most prime perfect land that you can find in Victoria. Only 4% of Victoria's farmland is actually class one. M >> and we have some of it at our own property that they're just going to plow through.

[00:50:04]>> What renewables is it is it is it going from and what grid is it going to?

[00:50:09]>> So this is the western renewables link.

[00:50:11]So this will be coming just out of arat at Bulana and it'll be going to the northwestern side of Melbourne.

[00:50:18]>> Right. And again is what sort of renewables are they are they talking here? The wind farms.

[00:50:25]>> Yeah. This will be coming >> the big um fans. Yes. that that sometimes don't work and leave a mess for decades [laughter] >> and you've got to pay for it to get cleaned up when they don't work.

[00:50:35]>> Well, it's not [snorts] really in our area that they'll be putting them up, but we'll just be transmission lines.

[00:50:40]>> We'll have the transmission lines.

[00:50:42]>> I've seen a few of those laying around the place as well. Yes.

[00:50:44]>> How do you feel? How does everyone feel um towards the the state government?

[00:50:50]towards the state government specifically. There's a lot of anger and that is because they haven't been completely truthful to us. They haven't really heard our voices. They haven't really sided with the farmers in this.

[00:51:05]They've been very narrow-minded. And it's not that we're all against renewables and we don't want any renewables anywhere. We're just really focusing and trying to explain to them that there could be better ways. that this is some of the best farmland that Victoria has to offer. We're really profitable and they just aren't listening.

[00:51:24]>> What happened to consultation to hardworking people? What happened to it?

[00:51:28]Is it just something that doesn't exist anymore?

[00:51:30]>> Well, the company that's putting it through Osnet admitted that they didn't do a good consultation prog uh process.

[00:51:37]They didn't listen to us. They didn't really consult with the farmers at all.

[00:51:44]And so you've got again no recourse there. So no consultation then they can buy your land back.

[00:51:52]This stuff goes through and causes you know whatever damage to you on the bottom line for you guys. I mean this is just a proper railroading.

[00:52:04]How do you feel personally?

[00:52:08]>> It varies dayto day on how you feel.

[00:52:11]Some days we do feel really angry that this is happening. Other days we're all really sad and we're confused and you know, you don't know how to feel cuz I am quite young and I've been dealing with this since I was 18 and you you're not really sure what the future of your agriculture is going to look like.

[00:52:28]>> You have no power that you're a sixth generation farmer and the power over your own property has been taken away from your sister.

[00:52:40][ __ ] them. I mean, but I don't know what else to do. I mean, do what are you gonna do?

[00:52:45]>> We're gonna keep fighting. We are really, really fortunate that we have a really great group of people in our whole community and our whole community is really strong and they're going to keep fighting it. They're going to keep looking at ways to make this project change. Make people see outside of our region why we are special, why we love what we're doing. Cuz farmers do. We love what we're doing. We want to keep farming. We want to keep producing.

[00:53:09]>> You're a young problem solver. Um they see your parents over here and they look like >> well your mom looks beautiful.

[00:53:17][laughter] >> Your dad I don't know but not to be trifled with. Um [laughter] >> I would say that but what are the options around it that you that you would suggest? I mean, Justinda Allen has shown no propensity to listen to anyone >> um for for the time that she's been premier and you know hopefully she's not there at the end of the year. Not that drawing any kind of biased conclusion there, but I don't think she does deserves to unless she has some sort of change in heart and change of everything in the next couple of months, but I don't see it happening. So, what's what's the option? What would you sell what would you tell them?

[00:53:55]>> We would love them to go back to the beginning of the project and relook at the route. see if there are other alternatives, other avenues that are already available. There is options of undergrounding some of the project in certain areas, changing the route because we have seen that underground transmission lines do work in other countries and there are a lot of countries that are doing a lot longer projects than ours completely underground and that would make our lives a lot easier. It would make a lot of farmers lives a lot easier. Osnet, is this the same mob um that that is working their way through New South Wales? Scone and >> is that the same mob that Yeah. So that's the same mob that with the farmers there that we did the story with. I mean, they're a lovely bunch of people. I mean, they just come on do, you know, do some surveying, don't tell you they're coming on.

[00:54:42]>> Yes.

[00:54:43]>> But I do want to ask you >> how they've [clears throat] been, how the staff have been when they come onto your property >> because it seems to be getting more and more heated. They're very intimidating.

[00:54:56]They haven't come tried to come onto our property in about 12 months now. The last time they did come to try to come on, there was two individuals that were doing the assessing and they were surrounded by three security guards.

[00:55:10]These are really big security guards that have cameras that are body worn cameras attached to them and >> like cops.

[00:55:17]>> Yeah, kind of. But with little authority, >> little less authority. They will call the cops if they feel it is required, if they feel they're being intimidated to.

[00:55:28]And yeah, they're not >> But it's like you've done something wrong and and it's your own property.

[00:55:35]>> Correct.

[00:55:36]>> That's crazy.

[00:55:37]>> And again, we're very organized. We have a whole group chat dedicated to this.

[00:55:40]So, one text in the group chat and you can guarantee there'll be 20 locals that will come to your property and help you.

[00:55:47]>> So, you've got a great community.

[00:55:49]>> Yeah. Absolutely. Is that going to make is is that great community feeling and and that whole notion of of sticking together to to try and achieve something. Is that going to get you home here, do you think, or or is what's what's what's going to make a difference?

[00:56:06]>> I think our community definitely does help us. It helps all of us. I'm not exactly sure what the answer to that is.

[00:56:12]>> If you saw these things built and if you get your land taken away from you, >> what's that going to mean?

[00:56:21]It could mean a lot of different things.

[00:56:22]We could be facing a lot of issues surrounding fire risk and increased fire risk. Uh bio security issues which we're very fortunate we don't have a lot of biocurity problems in our area but the introduction of them from companies that aren't that don't know a lot around biocurity especially on farm. Uh there is a little bit of unsuress around potential permitting for our own machinery especially our harvesters as they are quite tall. We they haven't exactly said what the permit will endure and what the terms will be but there has been talk around potentially having spotters in our own paddics to harvest our own crops.

[00:57:03]>> Oh my god.

[00:57:04]>> Which is a little ridiculous. And then they do provide us with information pamphlets which these have changed five times in six years. We've had five different booklets. It started yes, we can irrigate our crops. No, we can't irrigate our crops. And then we may be able to irrigate our crops >> cuz it's a good thing you don't have any other issues with fuel or fertilizer or anything like that.

[00:57:24]>> No, absolutely [laughter] not.

[00:57:26]>> I mean, it's been an awful time.

[00:57:28]>> Yeah. Yep. Definitely. It's been It's very uncertain times >> and this only adds to it. Yeah.

[00:57:33]>> What is your Does your grandfather still work?

[00:57:36]>> Yeah, he does. He does. Loves it. I don't think we can get him away.

[00:57:40]>> I mean, he has seen a lot, right?

[00:57:42]>> Correct.

[00:57:44]>> Over the years. What What does he say about what's happening and and the government, the role of the government?

[00:57:51]>> I don't think I'm allowed to say exactly. You can say it.

[00:57:54]>> He He's a very uh a non-filtered man. He is. Um, >> when you say when you say he's non-filtered, uh, is he sort of in the style of, you know, the show sometimes or, uh, worse?

[00:58:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. [snorts] [laughter] >> I think you get along very well with him actually.

[00:58:14]>> So therefore, you can say it.

[00:58:17][laughter] >> They're over there.

[00:58:20]>> Mom's saying you can say it.

[00:58:23]He often makes a lot of comments going back to when he started farming when he was around 16 and how the times have changed around that. But now we're looking at a different generation where everything is a lot more connected and everyone can see a lot more. So when he was like growing up you just farmed and everyone was that's fine. Now we're farming with international pressures that we never had before. We are very globally connected world. Our pricing is influenced by some place I've never really ever been. I'm probably never even going to go to. And we should have a lot more reliance on our own. We should be able to produce our own. We should be able to sell our own to try and not be so reliant on a place I've never been.

[00:59:08]>> Do you know the thing is, and we've been talking about this when the fuel crisis started, and didn't it run hot, right?

[00:59:14]Yeah.

[00:59:14]>> It ran so hot.

[00:59:16]>> Let's set up our own distributions. Let let's set up our own storage facilities.

[00:59:21]Let's make our own drill, baby drill.

[00:59:24]>> And what's happened? I mean, this is what happens every time. Yeah.

[00:59:27]>> And if you don't have government that has foresight, >> y >> then it's just going to happen again.

[00:59:32]>> Yeah. And we were only working out last night. Our fuel >> during April, which was our busiest time. We were sewing. We had trucks going everywhere. Our fuel went from $180 to $3 a liter >> when >> this was in mid April this year. So when we just worked out how much extra we were paying, it was absolutely exorbitant. Like we worked it out like where were we going to pull all that money from and we just absorbed it.

[00:59:58]>> Government's getting in the way and not doing their not there's no forward planning and then take that issue as a microcosm and then and then add the issue of the transmission lines running through your property. It it just makes you must make you so disheartened.

[01:00:15]Yeah, that's probably the best word you can use. There's a lot of words I could be used. It's angry. It makes you sad.

[01:00:21]It makes you confused. It makes you worry of what's going to happen. Will we be able to farm in the future? Is it going to be financially viable for us to keep farming in the future?

[01:00:31]>> Look at what's at stake.

[01:00:33]>> Yeah.

[01:00:35]>> Well, give my regards to your grandfather.

[01:00:37]>> I will.

[01:00:37]>> He sounds like a very decent man.

[01:00:39][laughter] >> He definitely is.

[01:00:42]>> They are an incredible family. They love speaking with them all. All they are asking for is to be heard. Don't they deserve just that much? Well, Friday on the show, Kalista Clemens is back for a spicy panel with comedian Isaac Butterfield. I love him. This is going to be a beauty this Friday night. We'll see you then.