Małgorzata Czyńska „Pisz do mnie na Łódź!"

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:01]Good evening. It's 8:30 PM on the clock and this is the moment when I hope you can slow down and immerse yourself in the story. I want to say right away that this is our joint meeting, so at any point during the conversation with Małgorzata Czyńska, you can join this conversation, i.e. ask your question, and of course I will very quickly be your voice and will pass these questions on to Małgorzata. Write to me in Łódź.

[00:00:27]Cultural and social life in the temporary capital. This is the book we are focusing on today. Małgorzata Czyńska on the other side. Good evening.

[00:00:36]Good evening Gosia. Let me briefly introduce you. Anyway, I will use what is on the so-called flap of the book.

[00:00:44]Writer, journalist, art critic, exhibition curator. And I think I can also mention books that some of you are probably very familiar with, and for others it will be a hint on what titles to reach for next. I will remind you of Berezowska's guest for everyone, a book from 2018. Book hustle and bustle A moment, because I already have something here. The commotion of the heart. Absolutely. The commotion of the heart.

[00:01:14]The story of Maria Pawlikowska Jasnorzewska.

[00:01:20]The women in the paintings were also published in the margins. It was already 6 years ago. There were also women from the New Stories paintings 5 ​​years ago. Witkacy and women 4 years ago, women from the paintings of Poland 4 years ago, Dwórnik Robotnik sztuki, the year 2023 and the book that came before the book write to me on the boat, or Julia Keilowa Metalworker for new times.

[00:01:45]And today, a story that will allow us, I like to get into a virtual time machine and travel back to the 1940s and see what social, literary and emotional life was like.

[00:02:00]I guess we can also say in the 1940s in Łódź. Say suddenly. Suddenly at the beginning.

[00:02:08]Suddenly say suddenly and then suddenly say. Suddenly, then, I will continue what just popped out of my mouth here. When you found out that this boat, called a chimney-garden, would have rather worker-like associations, when you discovered for yourself that it was a city that was teeming with artistic life, full of writers. And thanks to this, you could also see the kind of community that, to be honest, I miss a little today, because I don't think there's a community like that anymore where people meet and talk to each other.

[00:02:41]We are more so single in all of this.

[00:02:45]That's true. And why? Why suddenly a book about boats? Because now I'm constantly asked, why suddenly? that here I write biographical books, herstories first of all, these books about female artists, and suddenly, suddenly Łódź, as if Łódź was a woman.

[00:03:06]In 2016, my book about Katarzyna Kobro, Kobroskok in przestrzeni, was published, and before that, for about two years while I was working on this book, I regularly went to Łódź.

[00:03:19]And Łódź was a total discovery for me, because this will sound bad, but I didn't know this city at all. I'm from Krakow, I've been living in Warsaw for years. I knew Łódź from Reymont's book, Wajda's film and that was pretty much it. And of course from the collection from the international collection at the Museum of Art. And when I started going to Łódź, at first they were just timid trips straight from the station, to the art museum, to the archives and that was it. Then I started driving around the city, walking, discovering this city that was unlike any other I had ever known. And also during this work and writing the book I touched a bit on the 1940s, the post-war period, because Katarzyna Kobro was no longer connected with the artistic life of Łódź, the temporary capital, just after World War II. she was actually excluded from it and this is also a story that resonated in the book about her and which also resonates a bit in the book Write to Me on the Boat. But thanks to this, I suddenly realized that, oh my, not only were art schools established that hadn't existed before, but also that post-war survivors from all over Poland and from the Borderlands and from Warsaw, especially, came to Łódź, and that it was in Łódź, which was an absolute discovery for me, that the artistic life of this country was happening. this is where the first performances were and so on and so forth, and it seemed to me that it was so worth describing.

[00:05:16]And besides, I would still have a good excuse for those boat trips that were so inspiring to me.

[00:05:27]Yes, because writing a book, apart from being a torture at times, I think you'll agree, because everyone probably has moments like that when writing, wondering if it's really possible to finish it, should also be a pleasure. So if you can combine business with pleasure. Yes Sir.

[00:05:40]Yes, yes. Here, here these queries are always such a good time for me, such a good time, when I'm already working, but without the great pressure of having to sit down and write a text to submit to a publisher. So I really, really enjoy this time of research, and if it is also connected with trips to another city or cities, then it is a great pleasure.

[00:06:09]I see that there are women from Łódź with us on board, but there are also women from Krakow and Warsaw. Please report from various places in Poland and the world. It's like a virtual handshake. And I would like to remind you right away that, as always, our meetings can be shared. Under the windows in which we are visible there is a Facebook button called share.

[00:06:27]you press and we jump onto your Facebook timeline. If you follow us on YouTube, simply type in, copy the address from the search engine and send it to your friends. So let's start with this contrast, because you made me realize that for people who come from Warsaw, for example, and have a picture of rubble in front of them, coming to Łódź and seeing the Grand Hotel, for example, can give the feeling that suddenly we are in a completely different world, some parallel reality, right, after the Warsaw Uprising.

[00:07:05]And these are the descriptions, memories of people who experienced it.

[00:07:10]people who, sometimes for many hours, and sometimes for many days, were traveling to Łódź in January, February, March of 1945 and getting off a truck on Piotrkowska Street in front of the entrance to the Grant Hotel and a completely different world was happening there and it was like before the war and it was warm. and the light was on and the maid was filling the bathtub with hot water and the beds were made. And above all, there were people around, one could say from the industry, people from people from that circle, journalists, musicians, writers, film people, theater people.

[00:08:04]Um, this Grand Hotel was a place where for a while everyone really just met, found each other, and figured out what to do, how to do culture. It was an incredible time, because creators were so eager to create, and in turn, audiences were eager for books, newspapers, concerts, and theater performances.

[00:08:41]So it was such an amazing time.

[00:08:43]Of course, all this did not happen in isolation from reality.

[00:08:48]And because these were people who had often gone through really, really difficult experiences, marked by the loss of loved ones, and simply marked by the war. And yet the enthusiasm of the reviving post-war cultural life was enormous. Well, there is something very, very attractive about it for a researcher. Well, for me it was really, well, it was a great adventure to enter that time, to experience that enthusiasm.

[00:09:25]Meanwhile, you are dealing with the history of Łódź and the years 1945-1948, and the way these social changes looked is perfectly reflected in the statement that appears at one point in your book, that it is actually difficult to find Łódź inhabitants in Łódź. So let's expand on this topic a bit.

[00:09:46]Yes, there are many, many memories in this book, many anecdotes, many, many such somewhat satirical images, but it was so that during the war Łódź was generally called Litmanat and from the very beginning the Germans were very keen to depolonize this city.

[00:10:10]Um, so uh, a lot of Poles were displaced, Germans were brought in, primarily Germans from uh, the Baltic countries, but also uh, not only that. Um, of course, the Jewish population was murdered, moved to the ghetto and so on. Well, after the war, there were only about 800 Jews in Łódź, so it really shows the scale of the pogrom.

[00:10:45]And at the beginning of January 1945, right after liberation, Łódź was a rather empty, depopulated city.

[00:10:55]Of course, Poles who could return slowly started to return, but first there was this influx of people from outside, from outside of Łódź, not from Łódź, but above all from Warsaw, and there were very funny situations when it suddenly turned out that when you ask someone for directions, how to get to a certain street, no one knows and everyone says, "I 'm not from here, I'm from Warsaw."

[00:11:26]Stefania Grodzieńska gives such a wonderful picture in Szpilki, but I also found that she wrote a similar story for the Cross-section and somewhere else for the press. Just about how it all wanders around the boat at the beginning.

[00:11:42]And every passerby I meet, when asked for the address, gets very angry, huffs and simply says that he 's not from here, after all, he 's from Warsaw. And there are also such reports from other writers, when they say that what a strange city, there are no inhabitants of Łódź at all. This boat must not have seemed strange to the visitors at first.

[00:12:09]But it filled up very quickly, both with the returning Łódź residents, those returning from work, etc., and with the immigrant population, and it really quickly became very crowded in Łódź. This is also what we know from many reports. While at the beginning there were indeed empty apartments there, these empty apartments belonging to the Germans were a real lure. The apartments were often furnished, people really entered other people's lives and these relationships were also very interesting. There was a lot of joy not only in getting an apartment with furniture and sometimes even some canned food in the pantry, but also anger at the Germans. There were a lot of emotions boiling over there.

[00:13:09]It was a very, very hot time.

[00:13:13]I'll tell you that I also really like the photos you can find in the book, because on the one hand, the words obviously trigger our imagination, and very vivid images immediately appear somewhere in our minds, and at the same time, we can also look at the city from years ago. There is a photo where the train is literally plastered with people. What we are watching today is nothing, right?

[00:13:38]Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a bit like watching trains somewhere in India right now, right?

[00:13:47]I had great pleasure in choosing the photographic material for this book, because I didn't want them to be just some theater or film posters, but to show a bit of the authentic life of the city.

[00:14:05]So I'll try to show you this train.

[00:14:08]Oh, this is the train to Łódź. People got off at the Łódź Kaliska station and simply dragged themselves from everywhere with their own bundles and suitcases, and that's how they re-organized themselves for post-war life in Łódź.

[00:14:29]probably in the first, I mean not probably, but definitely in the first issue of pins, which came out on March 1, 1945, there is a fantastic drawing by Henryk Tomaszewski entitled The Promised Land. This drawing is also in the book and it shows how people are drawn to the boats, and there is already a housing crisis there. There was a saying that whoever comes to Łódź late is doing himself a disservice, because those people who got there first managed to get that good apartment. Of course, later they were given additional tenants, and it wasn't so rosy, but some of them actually succeeded. And among this privileged group were artists, there were people of theater, film, and, like, for example, Jerzy Borejsza and the publishing cooperative, the reader took over the large Przywandurski tenement house as a house for writers. For example, Aleksander Ford booked several tenement houses on Narutowicza Street for his filmmaking staff. It 's also amazing when you look at old magazines. I'm just wondering because I tried to find such contemporary equivalents and sadly found that much more space was devoted to matters of theatre, literature and film in the 1940s, for example, than today. Well, because there is probably no such space, or there are only a few small columns, really, for culture, a short book review, and then, well, literature and theater were definitely fields that were talked about and that interested people. So you had such comparisons when you were going through subsequent archive issues of Szpilki, for example?

[00:16:38]Well, of course. Well, I was absolutely delighted with how it looked and I don't know, maybe I'll sound like a bit of a whiner now, that it used to be better. But even the press from the 90s or early 2000s, well, it gave us a lot of inspiration, right? You read reviews, you went to the cinema to see these films, to these performances, to the theatre, and it was fantastic. But the post-war press, well, I really liked those great articles, columns, in-depth analyses, and of course the graphics, right, and for artists you also have to take into account that propaganda was already there and so on and so forth, that the ideological layer was very, very important. Um, nevertheless, um, well, these were um, very um, substantive um and um articles that did not treat the topic um, never, never, to the head. Well, you just read it. In general, these articles read like good literature. I also thank you very much for expanding such knowledge, which is basic. For example, when I hear Jan Brzechwa, I immediately go back to my childhood and my beloved poems.

[00:18:11]Meanwhile, this man also had another serious face, that of a man who, I think, could easily work in the EU today, who knew copyright law and worked for the reader. Yes, let's talk a little about it.

[00:18:26]Yes, yes. Well, Jerzy Borejsza, who organized the publishing cooperative Czytelnik, was a real institution, and of course, because he was a communist, he was the one, as they said about him, the most international of Polish communists, that he was in the service of the new government. Yes, it was. Um, but he believed that literature was important and the literati in 1945 felt that they were needed by this new government, but also that this new government cared about them. And of course there were all sorts of dilemmas there, and it 's enough to look at the diaries of Zofia Naukowska or Maria Dąbrowska. And as if we knew that it wasn't like that the writers, well some of them, but obviously not all of them, that they went, they went like smoke.

[00:19:18]Nevertheless, very quickly, a few months after liberation, most writers in Poland found themselves in the reader's pocket and had jobs, were settled, had money, and were given apartments. Well, there was really a lot to do, because he had some incredible abilities when it came to attracting people from various political parties, and he was able to patch it up in a way that, please, let's put the ideological matters aside for later, but now there is work to be done. Here, please, you have money, here, please, there is an apartment in Łódź on Bandurskiego Street, and so on and so forth. please report to the reader, y, to the editorial office and then we could act and people simply needed it.

[00:20:15]And he also, of course, had this feeling that literature, or culture more broadly, was a kind of mouthpiece of the new government, but at the same time, these creators had the opportunity to create, they were given this table to work on, it was incredibly important and it attracted very, very different writers, very different poets. Among others, Jan Brzechwal, real name Jan Jan Lesman, who was also a pioneer in terms of knowledge of the law and the development of copyright law in Poland in general, so Borejszy was very much needed, and Borejszy apparently tempted him with the promise that he would publish everything Brzechwa wrote. So I think it was Jerzy Zaruba who conveyed it so brilliantly in some satirical image that here in the reader Jan Lesman works as a lawyer and copyright specialist, and Jan Brzechwa publishes his next book and it is Jan Lesman who signs a contract with Jan Brzechwa, so these sorts of funny scenes also took place there. Well, the matter was serious. Well, literature was simply supposed to help the new government. Borejsza is an incredibly interesting person to me. I recommend Eryk Krasudzi's book, the biography of Jerzy Borejsza, because his activities were really very broad, because it wasn't just about publishing books or publishing press.

[00:22:10]After all, there were plenty of such titles published by the reader, from such serious and serious magazines as Kuźnica or Odrodzenie.

[00:22:26]We could say that educating a young reader was important, but there was much, much more going on there. there was actually some promotion and education when it came to reading, fighting illiteracy, some traveling reading rooms.

[00:22:48]At one point, Jerzy Borejsza and the reader even carried out a campaign to equip postmen, postmen, and postmen of postmen with bicycles so that the ordered books could reach readers faster.

[00:23:08]Libraries, reading rooms, literary evenings, reading classes were organized, even with some musical accompaniment. Well, really, a lot was happening.

[00:23:21]You wrote that a crazy social life was developing, which on the one hand assuaged the longing for the pre-war past, but also, in many moments, assuaged the fear of the future, because, as you mentioned, there was already propaganda and, in fact, this desire for freedom clashed with subsequent obstacles that appeared on the way. But at the same time, let's say at what point the artists decided that we were doing well in Łódź, but we would still like to return to Warsaw. How many people do you think, when they came to Łódź, thought from the beginning that it would only be a temporary stopover, because there were some who stayed a bit longer than others, but I think most of them came with the intention that it would be a stopover, a short stay, but we would come back.

[00:24:14]Well, most of them, for sure. I was wondering how it happened. Well, yes, first of all, Warsaw was in ruins, you know, but the decision to rebuild Warsaw was made very quickly. Of course, looking at this sea of ​​rubble, it might seem that it was some absolute pipe dream and, in any case, that it would not happen quickly. So Łódź was a stopover for many, especially Warsaw residents, and I think that this assumption was present in many of them from the very beginning, and it was, and even many of them write about it, so there was something so terrible and ungrateful about it towards this city that took in war survivors.

[00:25:11]But it happened. Paweł Herz recalled years later that Łódź was a sufficient exile for the people of Warsaw, that it was this wonderful harbor, but it was known that it was only a stopover. Well, this whole complaint about Łódź is also repeated all the time, that what kind of city is it with one street, and what a strange city it is, there are no Łódź inhabitants in it at all. But these visiting artists created, I don't know, today we would say that they had this kind of bubble, because they really lived in their bubble. These descriptions about how Łódź is suddenly like a town of renaissance, with an artist at every step and so on. Well, yes. Yeah. Well, people who moved in the same circle actually met each other all the time. If you lived on Bandurskiego Street, you would meet all your neighbors. neighbors of writers, and there was the Pole Gojawiczyńska and Zofia Naukowska and Jan Brzechwa, Jan Kot and so on and so forth. Even for a moment the very young Julia Hartwik and Zygmunt Kałużyński. Well, everyone kind of just kept in their own circle all the time, and from there you'd go to the Zimens tenement house on Piotrkowska Street, and there, in the reader's office, in all these editorial offices, people worked, and then they ate in the same canteen, in the same diner, and then they drank coffee in the same café, and then they went somewhere else where the same people met, and the same thing happened in the film and theater circles, and these circles intertwined a bit, but everyone had their favorite café, pub, and so on. So yes, in this sense it was that kind of city, a city of artists, but one laced with constant complaints about Łódź, that Łódź was somehow insufficient. When I analyzed it, I thought that this despair after the war years, this despair after the loss of loved ones, this despair after all the war experiences, this incredible grief over the destruction of Warsaw, well, it didn't allow these temporary inhabitants of Łódź to truly be happy, to be happy for the boats.

[00:27:54]So, so all the time it was like there was, there was this melancholy, there was this nostalgia.

[00:28:01]Well, her favorite song was always a song about my Warsaw, when in 1948 the Syrena theater, which, by the way, was installed in Łódź right after the liberation, in the Grand Hotel.

[00:28:20]And when the Syrena moved to Warsaw in 1948, at the premiere performance the actors came on stage and sang a song that was actually a thank you to Łódź.

[00:28:38]Łódź welcomed us with tender care, and we were unworthy of it. Piotrkowska they called Marszałkowska and they were strangers. So I think that this strangeness has always accompanied Warsaw residents, and not only Warsaw residents. And when it was finally possible to move to Warsaw, when the city was ready to accept its people again, there was a great retreat, a great, great loss of blood in Łódź, and people started leaving en masse. But it was also caused by the fact that various institutions that were installed in Łódź in 1945, especially theaters, began to move to Warsaw, so people immediately, and the publishing house and the reader also moved in. Those who stayed in Łódź, stayed longer or stayed permanently, were constantly pestered with great surprise, saying, "Well, are you still in Łódź?" And it was so incomprehensible. So it was as if the dream of Warsaw, the longing for Warsaw took over some kind of everyday reality that was going on in Łódź. Um, so uh it is really so that these hundreds of creators, artists that I mention in the book "Write to me on the boat" uh they just passed through this city in transit.

[00:30:32]When it comes to such fans of boats, we can certainly include Julian Tuwim in this group, about whom you write: "Julian Tuwim, a Łódź native by birth, could wax ecstatic over the city of factory chimneys, factory sirens, over the whole smoky chimney garden where he spent his childhood and early youth." In the poem "Łódź" he declared: "Because I declare myself, my city is Łódź, it is my family cradle. Let others exalt the gang from Sorento Crimea to the sky, but I prefer Łódź, its ford and smoke a bowl of happiness and delight. Well, on the one hand, we have this delight here, but at the age of 20, as you write later, the poet moved to Warsaw, but he missed his, as we said, chimney garden. There is nostalgia in it, of course, but he never returned to Łódź.

[00:31:24]He came to this city, of course.

[00:31:28]But he chose Warsaw, and and and and and that is what most of the characters in my book missed. There was a longing to sit back in the small landowner's house on Mazowiecka Street, was n't it? There were constant comparisons, that this Piotrkowska Street was called the Marshall Street, that these constant comparisons, very unfair and so unfair to Łódź, but also completely understandable.

[00:32:05]I see that you are joining us and From Częstochowa and Silesia, and I saw that Warmia was present, and Cape Town was on board. It was from Cape Town that Mr. Eryk smiled at us and said, "Well, the film school was founded and remained in Łódź, not Warsaw."

[00:32:21]We'll definitely return to this film thread, but let's start with art, because it's probably worth noting that Łódź already had this unique international collection of modern art. Let's talk about what was going on in Łódź, what was Katarzyna Kobro doing in Łódź?

[00:32:36]I think she's close to your heart.

[00:32:39]Katarzyna Kobro is very close to my heart. The book is being republished in the fall, so I'm back again, again, in Kobro, and actually, as I said at the beginning, Katarzyna Kobro introduced me to Łódź. It's always been surprising to me that she and her husband, Władysław Strzemiński, chose Łódź, that how it happened that these people, educated in Moscow and familiar with world art and excellent collections, ended up first in Vilnius, then in the Polish countryside.

[00:33:18]And after Koluszki, in Łódź. They taught in Koluszki. They practically spent their entire lives teaching. They had a very restrictive approach to practicing art, because they didn't practice art for sale.

[00:33:39]They believed that one should have some additional occupation, even if it was in education, so as not to become a dealer in art. They approached it very ideologically. They both liked Łódź. Katarzyna, Katarzyna Kobro, liked Łódź, and it was a city close to her heart, and in fact, you could say she was a Łódź resident by choice, and they had this idea of organizing an international collection of modern art. While still living in Koluszki, which is completely unimaginable to me, they corresponded with European artists, people of the avant-garde, and encouraged them to donate works to the collection they were organizing, which at first they thought they would donate to a museum in Warsaw. They were n't necessarily considering Łódź, but Łódź turned out to be a good place to accept this collection.

[00:34:51]And of course, today we know That, that it was like the seed of a, a, museum, and so on and so forth, but in the, uh, late 20s and 30s, Łódź wasn't associated with art at all, so even this, uh, international collection of modern art didn't make a huge difference here. Of course, for connoisseurs of the subject, this is a very, very important moment, when it comes to avant-garde art. And Katarzyna Kobro also taught in Łódź at a high school, at a vocational school, so she liked this city, she was connected to it. It was here that her daughter, Nika Strzemińska, was born, and you could say that Łódź wasn't particularly kind to Katarzyna Kobro.

[00:35:51]But that would require delving into the history of her marriage to Władysław Strzemiński, a truly terrible story, because Katarzyna Kobro is the one who was overlooked in post-war Łódź, precisely when she should have started working at the Higher School of Fine Arts, later called the State Higher School of Fine Arts. School of Fine Arts, but that didn't happen because her husband, Władysław Strzemiński, effectively prevented her from doing so. It was known that other professors, especially Stefan Wegner, who was friends with the Strzemińskis, were very much in favor of Kobro working at the academy. So it's a great pity, a great loss, and a great injustice that an outstanding artist, an outstanding sculptor, didn't have her own students. No, no, she wasn't allowed to work in her profession, she wasn't allowed to teach young people, she wasn't allowed to function in the artistic community of post-war Łódź at all.

[00:37:02]So, in reality, after the war, she persisted in a kind of profound artistic oblivion, in poverty. She created only a few works, nudes, and what a tragic fate it was.

[00:37:19]Katarzyna Kobra isn't exactly a good example, when we talk about the great enthusiasm and the sea of opportunities that post-war Łódź offered artists. Because perhaps what became most important in general, when it comes to this city and what remained, is higher education. Before the war, Łódź didn't have its own university. It did n't have It didn't have a higher education institution. For a long time, the city authorities and even private industrialists and entrepreneurs were trying to get the city's office to organize a higher education institution, even a technical university. It did n't happen. The city's red character probably made the authorities afraid of organizing a higher education institution. It was as if they thought that such a gathering of young people with leftist views under one roof could have consequences, so it was better not to. But what Łódź got already in 1945, right after liberation, was the University of Lodz and technical schools, and what was most interesting to me in the context of this book: higher art schools.

[00:38:44]I found a mention in the newspaper Codzienna, where, very soon after liberation, the news spread that a higher art school would be organized, but also excellent secondary education was being organized, and music schools were being established, and an art high school was established. And of course, staff were needed, so people from all corners of the globe flocked to these new-fangled institutions.

[00:39:14]Cultural institutions. And students, I think Drewnowski mentions that young people were drawn to Łódź for several reasons. Homelessness, university, or chance. Um, so, uh, so, for example, from the Łódź, uh, h, uh, university, uh, will graduate here, and the generation of future, uh, spotty, and, uh, and, and really, well, very, very many people, including distinguished artists, lecturers, scientists, and many students who later entered the world of Polish culture, will remain, leaving some kind of mark. It all started in the first post-war months and those first post-war years, precisely in Łódź.

[00:40:09]You also write that some artists, as they themselves admit, were a bit surprised by the moment the war ended. This is, among other things, the confession of Jan Kot, and many a scientist or writer sought a place for themselves after wartime exile. Not everyone immediately ended up in Łódź.

[00:40:30]Um, Jan Kot was initially in Krakow. You write like that? Uh, and here's a quote from Jan Kot. The war is over for us. We'd been waiting for this day for years, but now it was as if liberation had caught us by surprise. We didn't even know where we'd be living. For many, including Kot, the first stop was Krakow, which remained untouched by warfare.

[00:40:52]During the war, it was the capital of the General Government, but it didn't suit the communists for ideological reasons.

[00:40:58]It was known to be conservative and traditionalist, while Red Łódź was more likely to be seen as the country's temporary capital. How many other famous artists, writers, and scientists actually made some stops before coming to Łódź, checking where they could actually put down roots, even for a moment?

[00:41:18]Well, before Krakow, there was Lublin, liberated the earliest, and it was there that many artists went. Here again, Jerzy Borejsza played a major role, attracting and attracting artists, and it was there that many actors, or rather, writers, got their start. He was the first to leave. Newspapers were printed, the first books were printed, the first books published by readers were published in Lublin. Only then did Łódź come, and in the meantime, Kraków. Kraków was also very important, and many authors went to Kraków. Many of those survivors of the Warsaw Uprising also went to Lublin, Kraków, and so on, and so on, but Kraków was bursting at the seams. Kraków was absolutely, uh, overcrowded, uh, but so many writers, even if only became, uh, the first in such a literary commune, that is, in the house of a writer among writers on Krupnicza Street. Uh, I give such a great description in the book, uh, of what life was like there, from that house. Uh, on Bandurskiego Street in Łódź, it was better because the conditions were better. Really, when you compare the crampedness of Krupnicza Street with that, uh, modernist, comfortable, spacious tenement house in Łódź, it's heaven on earth. So, so... stops.

[00:43:06]Eryk Lipiński, for example, was brought to Łódź by plane that the city had at its disposal, that the reader had at its disposal, that Borejsza had at its disposal. So this " kukuruźnik" (corner man) was shuttling between Krakow, Krakow, Krakow, and Łódź, and that's how people were brought in. Boresza sent out these scouts, searching for writers on estates, farms, where, where they had survived the war, or where they had ended up after the Warsaw Uprising.

[00:43:45]And he was effectively persuading and attracting them to Łódź. So, but Krakow was important, because they were also considering, as we're talking about, both the film school and the film studio, because I see Mr. Eryk's comment here, well, Krakow was being considered, Krakow was being considered. Krakow was being considered very, very seriously.

[00:44:15]Just as it was considered for a moment as the location for this temporary capital. Well, but precisely because of this character of Krakow, I say this as a Krakuska, well, well, Łódź seemed like a new... The new government, the new rulers, well, more appropriate. I'll tell you, after what you're saying, I'll reach for that biography of Jerzy Borejsza, because he's truly a fascinating figure. On the one hand, he was a very effective organizer, a man who really knew how to work to gather, under one roof, so to speak, people who had enormous literary talent. But I also think it's worth mentioning what you're writing about, that he conducted a purge in the Solineum library. Let's say what books he removed.

[00:45:07]Yes, yes, it was important. It's interesting what she writes about Borisz. It seems to me very accurate and sums up what Maria Dąbrowska writes about him: that for the first time in the history of the country, people who considered themselves Poles were Russifying Poland, Russifying, excuse me, Russifying Poland. Um, so that's what happened.

[00:45:34]I talk about that time, those first post-war years in Łódź, as a time of such an explosion of creativity, of this opportunity for expression, of artists being given this table. To work, a stage for performances, a film studio, higher education, well, everything was happening, but it was n't rosy, it wasn't... was an interesting time, it wasn't easy, it was full of Theater.

[00:47:20]People want to live, so these cafes are truly amazing at every turn.

[00:47:29]I've come across such wonderful descriptions of what an elegant street Piotrkowska is, that it's even better than before the war, that it's simply incredible elegance.

[00:47:42]Well, well, a lot was happening in this, this cultural witness of Łódź.

[00:47:51]Bore also undoubtedly had his own very specific vision for a publishing company, but when you look at the book circulation figures, it's also impressive.

[00:48:02]There's nothing like it anymore.

[00:48:04]Exactly. So, for those who are uninitiated, let's say what the average circulation of a book is today. I'm not sure about Remik Mróz, Kasia Bonda, or authors like that. Because when I say circulation figures, I also say how much heart was put into promoting reading. Let's talk a little about it, because it's impressive.

[00:48:27]Jesus, it's incredibly impressive.

[00:48:29]You know what, I won't tell you exactly how many, what the circulation figures are, because it's It depends, but I think most publishers start with a few thousand copies for each title and see if it goes any further, and then they print more.

[00:48:45]And in the 1940s, at the latest, we also have titles that sell tens, hundreds of thousands of copies at once. Something simply incredible.

[00:48:57]Ugh, but uh, well, that's how it was. The number of press titles, what was happening, something incredible.

[00:49:10]Several, and at once several, for example, at the beginning of the year, only satirical magazines, so you could choose, and everything was well-tailored to suit readers with different needs. Something very, very interesting, but here too there's this incredible Boreszy thinking, even when it comes to ideological press, just to mention the Renaissance and Kuźnica. One so sharp and to the point, and the other so wink-wink, right? So, he was a really clever guy.

[00:49:57]So let's take a look at that film school in Łódź and also talk about theater right away, because that's the time when the greatest things appear in your book. Theatre names that I think are familiar to those applying to theatre school today, and I hope they are.

[00:50:16]Although, when I sometimes talk to lecturers, what seems obvious to me may not be so anymore, but let's just say, in general, let's say these names are definitely worth knowing when preparing for an exam, whether for theatre or film school.

[00:50:30]In 1946, Leon Schiller came to Łódź to take over the Polish Army Theatre. Well, then it's probably impossible to know Leon Schiller anymore. This was a very important time for Łódź. Of course, theatre in Łódź was being organized very quickly, right after liberation. The Polish Army Theatre and Krasnowiecki arrived, with actors who had already performed in Lublin.

[00:51:00]Besides, in Łódź, there's a repeat premiere of Wyspiański's The Wedding, which had previously premiered in Lublin.

[00:51:10]I think it's very important to say how deeply this all evoked emotion in the actors, the entire theatre crew, and the audience, because in these many accounts and memories, well, they just pour out. Tears, really, and that's very important.

[00:51:34]Both renowned artists and actors who are just starting out come to Łódź, like, I don't know, Andrzej Łapicki, Alina Janowska, Danuta Szafskańska, Danuta Szaflarska. Really, it's like making an index of names, even of the characters who appear in my book, and yet they're not all of them. It would be impossible to list everyone. Well, well, well, you can see it again, yes, they started, they started in Łódź, and well, Leon Schiller's arrival, well, it's already turning this theatrical Łódź into Schiller's Łódź, and it's a theatre that resonates throughout Poland, but not only Schiller, Edmund Wierciński, Bogdan Korzeniewski, Teresa Roszkowska, and these people come to Łódź to design sets. She's also a wonderful character, isn't she? Very original for those times.

[00:52:37]Wonderful. I wrote, I wrote about her in the women from the paintings in this third part of "Polka."

[00:52:43]Wonderful. And in and out, this boat was already appearing in my mind then. Generally, I'm in favor of this idea. I kept returning to this book about Łódź for many years. It came right after working on Kobro, but whenever I put the book aside and wrote about my various authors, Łódź kept popping up as the place where many, many of my characters debuted. It wasn't just that it was, that it was the one, it was the place where new lives began. I'll cite some data, because it's also impressive. You write that from January 19th to the end of 1945, nearly 206,000 people came to Łódź. The census conducted in February 1946 showed that the city had a population of almost 499,000, which put it first in the country, ahead of Warsaw. Let's talk about the housing conditions, because if someone was lonely, they had to consider who they would live with. They certainly weren't lonely for a long time, but at the beginning, that winter of 1945 was an empty city. That's what you have to do.

[00:54:05]Remember that before the outbreak of the war, Łódź was the second-largest Polish city.

[00:54:14]And all these German actions, this depolonization, the deportation of Poles to forced labor. And also the great liquidation of the Polish intelligentsia in Łódź. Unfortunately, many artists, such as Karol Hiller, did not survive the war. So, yes, it was an empty city, but it was empty for a short time. Well, in less than a year, 200,000 people arrived. And those, uh, empty tenement houses, which, uh, initially, attracted people so much, those empty apartments, uh, filled up very quickly. And here we also have wonderful stories from some of my heroes, like Erryk Lipiński, who, after flying from Krakow to Łódź in that corncob and being installed at the Grand Hotel, where, by the way, he took a room after Marian Ailin, who went to Krakow to create a cross-section, felt so good and comfortable there that, as he himself admits, he neglected matters. Housing.

[00:55:31]And suddenly it turned out that there were no more empty apartments, that it wasn't so easy, it wasn't so easy to find something. His friends, um, rescued him and they gave up their apartment, um, Wilda in Julianów, which also quickly became occupied, because not only were Eryk Lipiński's relatives moving in there—his wife, then his daughter was born, and so on—but also some friends, and some artist with his mother and sister, and someone else, and someone else, and someone else, and someone else, and when you read the names that kept coming in, it suddenly seemed as if this house and all these rooms were made of rubber.

[00:56:19]Rubber, right?

[00:56:20]Yes, right? Really. And that everyone found a place. I also find it amazing that people helped each other, that they squeezed in, that it was as if everyone was homeless at the entrance. So there was a roof over everyone's head. That's something impressive about it.

[00:56:39]I see that we are thinking in parallel, because I have this fragment with Eryk Lipiński's memories right in front of my eyes, so let me I quote what you left in the book. Um, installed in the Grand Hotel, as you said, completely neglecting the apartment issues.

[00:56:53]Lipinski writes. Meanwhile, others, more thrifty, took over the luxurious apartments of German dignitaries, superbly furnished, equipped with bedding and sometimes even food supplies.

[00:57:02]When I thought about it, there were no more available premises. Fortunately, I met Mira Ziemińska, who, together with her husband Tadeusz Sygietyński, was allocated a large villa in Julianów. The Sygietyńskis gave it up in my favor.

[00:57:18]There was no furniture, no light, no gas. The telephone was cut off, but the house at Aleja Róż 6 was spacious with a large garden adjacent to Julianowski Park. I soon received an assignment for it. My mother, whom I found in a hospital in Krakow, and my cousin Hanna Tomaszewska, who had returned from the Ravensbryg camp, came to live with us. We also hosted my wife's sister, Danuta Staniszewska, and her two children.

[00:57:44]Despite this, Willy still had plenty of room left. So I gave two rooms to the photographer of the reader's graphic studio, Tadeusz Aleksandrowicz, who lived there with his mother and sister. Years later, Aleksandrowicz became known as a theatre director and an efficient organizer of mass events.

[00:58:01]Edward Dziewoński, who was performing at the Syrena Theatre at that time, settled down with his wife in the large living room. There were also free rooms for my friends from primary school, Stanisław Kucharski, and his wife Halina Górczewska. So, 10 adults and two children lived in this villa, and I also had to read this fragment, as well as my dog, Shaggy Blut terrier Kubuś. And this is not the end of these inhabitants, right? And then some other friends came there, fellow artists, and that's how it happened.

[00:58:31]So let's also talk about these Mhm.

[00:58:34]Please, please, please, please.

[00:58:36]No, no. Please, please.

[00:58:37]I wanted to ask you about the most famous cafés in Łódź.

[00:58:41]Of course, in our story we will also be in Warsaw, when this return was possible for artists for a while, but these cafes and these places where you were basically sure that no matter what time you went in, you would meet someone you knew.

[00:58:57]Well, the café at the Grand Grand Hotel is certainly an important place, but for example, the reader has organized his own café on the ground floor of the Fraszka café. there was mocha, which in turn was liked by filmmakers and there was even a saying that the path of Polish film led from Oka to Moka. A very important cafe. A cafe, a place in the Savoi hotel, also near the grand, the Pikwicka club, where the entire BMA in Łódź and actors would gather, so there were a lot of these places. Tabarin, other other places. Besides that, there were many, many dances, places where you could dance, where music was played, where great artists played in the Grand.

[01:00:01]For example, right after the liberation, the famous Harris brothers came to the Grand to give concerts, playing very fast both at the New Year's Eve ball in 1945 and on the anniversary of the liberation of Łódź.

[01:00:18]Um, so uh, in general, the cultural life in Łódź is at a very high level. Great, great musicians, philharmonic orchestra members, lecturers, and of the Higher School of Music. Well, there's a lot going on in all fields, and everyone has their own places where they go and meet. It 's a bit like Rudnicki wrote, I think, that it was also tiring, that everyone was constantly keeping an eye on each other, um, that living in these and in these houses assigned to a specific professional group and also meeting um, and this and that in the theater where you work, or at the film studio where you work, or in the editorial office where you work in the publishing house, and then the same canteen, the same, the same café, the same dancing.

[01:01:21]Well, but it was no different in pre-war Warsaw, and then in this Warsaw to which artists and creators returned, simply these groups, these professional groups moved in their own circles and in these dedicated premises. What is also moving to me is the fragment that shows how diverse the street was in terms of its financial status. You write that in those first 40 years you saw, for example, people in the streets wearing authentic Auschwitz striped uniforms.

[01:01:59]There's also a fragment when Jan Ek, who played at a symphony concert of the Łódź Philharmonic, was sitting in a gray suit, but the trousers of the suit were practically hanging in tatters at the bottom, and for me it's really like Wilkomski's Bier, that people looked simply strange, and of course, both in the theater and in theaters and in concert halls, people dreamed for a long time about, I don't know, pre-war tailcoats or elegant, elegant outfits. Well, everyone performed in what they had and everyone was, everyone was poor after the war.

[01:02:45]And at the same time, it is a time full of contrasts, because we can recall images from Grand, where black trade flourished and you could buy absolutely any Western goods, for big money, of course, and at the same time also in Łódź, because here we are talking about cultural life and it is such a pleasant bubble, but there are also mass workers' strikes. there are a lot of terrible things happening. Well, there are thefts, robberies, rapes and attacks on the private apartments of Polish soldiers together with Soviet soldiers. He also recalls such scenes in this book. Um, so you have to realize a little bit against what background, on what stage this artistic life is taking place. Well, it's happening right now with great enthusiasm.

[01:03:51]You mentioned Schiller, but the name of Erwin Akser also appears, and you write that Adam Łapicki said that Erwin Akser could have known, let's say why, how much the actors who performed in his plays drank the previous evening.

[01:04:12]Well, as you said, the fact that they were there almost all the time and were in plain sight meant that certain things couldn't be hidden.

[01:04:18]Because my mother, Akser's mother, ran a place in the Savoy Hotel. This was the tavern to which artists were so eagerly drawn, where Leon Schiller would often spontaneously sit down at the piano or the grand piano, I don't know what was there, to be honest, whether it was the piano or the grand piano. I think the piano yyy and he played and sang yyy French songs yyy so yy this is a very nice topic to describe this life and the life of the creators of the post-war boat, but in fact everyone had their eyes on each other.

[01:05:03]Well, let's talk about these stories again, but when the decision is made that, for example, from what I remember, the reader was in Łódź probably only for half a year, right? Yes, the reader was in the water for half a year.

[01:05:17]very quickly it already had its headquarters in Warsaw, but there were still branches of the reader in Łódź, so it wasn't like it was an immediate liquidation, but '48, '49 to '50, these are the times when these cultural institutions are closing down and moving, moving to Warsaw.

[01:05:47]Besides, the anticipation for this moment was constantly present in these relationships, in these memories, in these regrets, the word simply keeps repeating itself, when Warsaw will claim us. Um, and yet it is so that, uh, that the people of culture who came to Łódź had this feeling as if they were being sidelined. And this is the biggest paradox, really, because for these few years in Łódź they were on the main track. It was in Łódź that the main track was located. And this grief and these resentments yyy played such a big role all the time that they actually yyy overshadowed the yyy rational view of what is here and now. But yes, they were there, but this regret and this longing were, as you can see, so big and so important that they resonate so strongly in all these statements. And then, of course, it 's like in Rudnicki's story, that one realizes that this was precisely this wonderful time, these years in Łódź. Well, first of all, because most of the heroes of my book were simply still very young, or at the peak of their creative powers, or just on the threshold of life and artistic life. So it was also a unique time for many of them. Supposedly, each natural time is unique, but this one actually somehow accumulated a lot of different things.

[01:07:36]Thank you so much for showing that before creators start creating and writing, they have to somehow find a place to live and manage, so to speak, everyday life. Tell me in what circumstances Maria Dąbrowska comes and where with such a question. I was told I could get some kitchen utensils. Who should I contact? Because it's a story also built on details, but it shows that it's not like you sit down, wait for inspiration and write, but first you have to manage the whole cycle of everyday life. And precisely, Boreza was well aware of this and with this he convinced many, even doubters like Dąbrowska. Well, you had to live somewhere and you had to have a job and somehow manage to cope with reality. So you came to Łódź, you got an apartment, if you were a writer, well, or a writer, you got this apartment on Bandwurskiego Street. And if there was a shortage of pots or any other items necessary for everyday functioning in this apartment, then you went to the reader's headquarters, that is, to this Zimens tenement house, where there were also warehouses with such household appliances, including pots, pans, and apparently even chamber pots, so... So, so, so, so even Maria Dąbrowska had to consider such everyday needs.

[01:09:23]So let me ask you about this moment when we close the Łódź chapter for a moment, because I was very interested in this story about these commonplaces on Iwicka Street in Warsaw.

[01:09:34]Especially since when I am in Warsaw, I actually live very close to Iwicka Street. And I also realized that there are still a lot of people living in this area who are translators, interpreters, writers, journalists, so somehow this tradition probably lives on here, and there, too, practically door to door, almost only people lived next to each other and helped each other.

[01:10:00]And not only, and not only in Łódź, not only in Warsaw on Iwicka, but also not only in Krakow on Krupnicza. Um, because for example, such a uh, such a city, which wanted to create decent uh, conditions for writers, but also to attract uh, people of letters.

[01:10:22]there was Szczecin, where by the deep lake there were these beautiful post-German pictures, which could have just been put into use by the creator and and and even in comparison with the tenement house on Bandurskiego Street, the Szczecin wilds were really, as this writers' colony was called, Disneyland.

[01:10:49]Y, but even those who were tempted by it and left and enjoyed this large space for a while, still wanted to return to Warsaw.

[01:11:02]Warsaw was attracting people like a magnet, and whenever it was possible to return, whenever it was possible to find somewhere to live and work, the power of attraction of the capital was enormous and no city could withstand it. when you write like that, either about this gathering of writers on Bandurskiego Street, or in these colloquialisms on Iwicka Street, it reminds me a bit of a student dormitory for adults, where you can actually go from room to room. Anyway, if you allow me, I will quote a fragment which shows that not everything was always so amicable, and quarrels occurred. Ryszard Matuszewski, as you write, told stories to Anna Bikont and Joanna Szczęsna. When the vase appeared on Bandurskiego Street, he made a public row with Stanisław Lec because the latter had taken a larger apartment. But he didn't want to be thrown out. He shouted: "I was in the partisans, I slept on the ground and under a bridge, and it sounds louder. I wasn't any better. I came here with the Soviet Army. Why should I have a studio apartment and you have three rooms?" Someone tried to explain that Lec was with his family, but Warzek replied that he was also going to start a family soon. he looked through the list of tenants and noticed that Marian Piechał had been allocated three rooms, but he did not live there yet. Only his suitcase was standing there. The dragonfly threw her out into the hallway and moved in. And Julia Hard wonderfully commented that when she lived there, she lived on Bandurskiego Street for a year and years later she wrote in her diary that if some villain wanted to attack such a house, he could blow up almost all the literature of that time. So actually, well, students, just a little older. The students are only a little older, but you could say they also have student life.

[01:12:55]In fact, the events on Bandurskiego Street are a separate chapter, and not only on Bandurskiego Street, but this is a separate chapter.

[01:13:07]young female students, students of Polish studies visiting famous writers at night and wandering from room to room also entered literature.

[01:13:22]So, there were a lot of these aspects, but also a lot of this kind of test of strength, a bit of intimidation, even the scene with the little bell jar, which was a bit funny, but actually more violent, so there were a lot of different things going on there too. Of course, there were those who were more privileged or who enjoyed much greater support from those in power or felt more confident.

[01:13:54]So all of this is also so, well, important to be aware of.

[01:14:01]So let's also talk about a fragment that, I admit, made me laugh a lot, concerning everyday life. If you have problems with order, it may turn out that the definition of order and mess may be broader than you think. How did Jan Kot cope in one of the apartments? All I can say is that I respect that at least he doesn't mention the woman he was living with at the time by name, but she is listed under the initial M. But tell me, how did they function? Maybe for someone it will be a blessing, and for someone it will be a relief that he never brought the apartment to such a state. Yes, you are. Listen, Weronika, it would probably be better if you read this truth, because I can't express it as vividly as the cat describes it, so if you can. I have it in front of my eyes and I read it.

[01:14:54]My former German apartment on Bandurskiego Street, in a house generously shared with writers in the first days after liberation, had three rooms. Written by Jan Kot. M and I always lived in only one, until it was completely destroyed. M was probably the laziest creature that existed in the world. She was even lazy in love. Well, there 's a thread here about erotic themes, so I'll leave it at that. But yes, we ate in bed. In bed she wrote poems and sometimes translated for me and for herself. It was some kind of pamphlet that eventually came out under my name: "I Am Untidy." But M was the absolute of disorder and domestic anarchy.

[01:15:32]She never cleaned, never washed dishes, she even washed and combed her hair only before going to bed. Each of the three rooms lasted us no longer than a week.

[01:15:43]When we couldn't stand it anymore, we locked it and moved on to the next one. After a month, the entire apartment and kitchen were in a state of complete decay. We would then move into the reader's guest rooms for a day or two and call in German women from the forced labor camp, I don't know what it was called, to clean. They were happy about it, because they got a few pennies, something to eat and sometimes even a half-finished bottle of vodka, which also shows, confirm or deny, that this life was also bathed in alcohol in the 1940s. And full of post-war traumas, right?

[01:16:20]It was like this, like this, like this. That's for sure, that 's for sure very important. This, this isn't just because we like to have fun, right? This is all some kind of and well, we don't go to a psychologist to work through emotions, but the only solution we know to suppress them is alcohol. There is alcohol. So of course there are again such very colorful descriptions of this Namburski life and stories, for example, of the caretaker Mr. Orzechowski, called Orzechoś, who, I don't remember, I don't remember which poet or writer it was, said that when Mr. Broniewski lived here, we were constantly drinking vodka, or he was constantly leaning out of the window and sending for a quarter, and so on, or that he often had to be dragged out of the carriage, and so on, or that Mrs. Gojawinczyńska was a real woman and didn't spill anything over her collar, and how much vodka they drank, Orzechoś and Gojawiczyńska, and so on, and so on, and so on, it really keeps repeating itself, and it's like this, I don't know how to call it, culture of drinking, of strong alcohol, is obviously very, very much embedded in this, and the life of the cultural community.

[01:17:53]Now I was thinking, Gosia, if, of course I know it's unrealistic, but if we had a time machine to actually land in Łódź in the 1940s and had the opportunity to choose our closest neighborhood, who among the people you mention so many times in the book, as we said, Julia Hartwik, Zygmunt Kałużyński, the Brandys family, Jan Brzechwa, Tuwim, who would you like to live next to and drop in for tea and chat sometimes?

[01:18:24]You know what, she wanted to, but I would like to meet Zofia Naukowska, because I'm sure Maria Dąbrowska would too. She didn't really identify with that boat, and it doesn't seem like she emphasized that it was an important time for her.

[01:18:43]But yes, yes, yes. It's Pola Gojawiczyńska too, but it would be nice to meet young Julia Hartwik, just at the threshold of her, um, creativity.

[01:18:56]I would also like to see Stefania Grodzieńska, so young, right?

[01:19:00]Excellent. No, so many, so many, so many. But you know what, I wouldn't really like to look at Katarzyna Kobro from a distance, at least on Srebrzyńska Street, and that was also a very interesting place, the Montątfiła, Mireckiego, before the war, but also after, because many people of the Łódź intelligentsia lived there, including the painter Stefan Wegnarz with his family, Katarzyna Kobro, Władysław Strzemiński, and Marian Minich, the pre-war director, and later the man who recreated, reconstructed, and built anew the Łódź Museum. Um, so, uh, so there were many of these artistic circles, but living for a while in one of these tenement houses of filmmakers, uh, on Narutowicza Street was also incredibly interesting.

[01:20:01]Next to the Jakubowska gang, for example. Well, that would be great. Well, this index of names is truly impressive and seems endless.

[01:20:13]You also show the daily press and also such reviews that reach the press from ordinary people, and there is a fragment from the workers' voice, when of course there is no letter, one could wonder whether it is real or not, as you yourself point out, whether it was written by the editorial office under the dictate of propaganda, which, if you allow me to quote, reads as follows. It is difficult for me to describe my impression of the beautiful play Krakowiacy i górale. This play is a must see for every citizen. Interesting content, beautiful dances and music, concert performances by artists and wonderful decorations.

[01:20:52]I am a humble worker, but I prefer to give up my glasses, a glass of vodka, and watch this spectacle a few more times. And let me tell you, it is a really strong declaration to deny yourself that glass of vodka. So as you suspect, go to the theater. Do you think this letter existed?

[01:21:14]Chiller. Well, well, that's a bit of a stretch, is n't it? It seems to me that this is pure propaganda. Well, actually, Schiller is making his debut in post-war Łódź, because of course he also performed in Łódź before the war, but the first play he performed was Bogusławski's Krakow and the Highlanders.

[01:21:42]And it is simply a spectacle that dazzles the audience.

[01:21:47]however, it is not free from the influence of propaganda, because the director adds both a prologue and an epilogue, and the play suddenly begins with the words "compatriots in 1946 breathing new freedom."

[01:22:09]So this letter to the editor is a bit funny.

[01:22:16]Iwona wrote: "This boat is surprising. You're listening with extraordinary interest, so Gosia, I'm sending you my thanks right away.

[01:22:24]And now we're opening this chapter about film, and here I'd like to focus for a moment on the figure of Aleksander Ford, whom Jerzy Hoffman, as you write, called 'tsar'. Where does this nickname come from?

[01:22:37]Oh, well, because these are, you know, these men generally have such nicknames.

[01:22:43]Schiller is called the Napoleon of the theater, here Ford is the CAR of the movie, and so on and so forth. But yes, of course, these are incredible, incredibly important figures. Of course, the Łódź film community isn't created by Aleksander Ford himself, although he is obviously an incredibly important figure, and also so important for this film community, and actually has such a figure of such stature as, for example, Borejsza for literature and the literary community. This is the kind of man who can arrange anything for his people, simply for his industry.

[01:23:25]So he arranges these tenement houses on Narutowicza Street and arranges the location of a sub-studio, and so on and so forth.

[01:23:37]In general, it must also be said that These organizers of cultural life in Łódź in those first post-war months were people in military uniforms.

[01:23:49]These were the people who came from the Oka River.

[01:23:54]And for a very, very long time, this film boat and the theater boat and so on were shining with these major stars and others, and these reprimands on their belts were also sometimes used, even in some cases, shots rang out, so that's how it happened.

[01:24:23]Maybe not for very long, but for a while, Krakow was also considered for this film community, so it could have happened that it would n't be Lodz that would be the film city, but Krakow. Uh, but still Lodz.

[01:24:45]Uh, so, so, so that's how it happened, and the film life there really started to get organized very quickly. Well, the military studio, the military Polish film studio, quickly organized, and they started filming. It was, it was truly amazing. Of course, cinemas in Łódź opened very quickly right after liberation, and so on, but people watched It was all about movies, pre-war films, so those first productions were incredibly important. It was what everyone was waiting for; the audience simply stood in lines stretching for kilometers.

[01:25:35]It was all incredibly important, with an important message. Besides, oh, and thank you for saying that, as I used to think, Alexander Ford, even though he's called a Tsar, I imagine a huge man. And you write that Ford was short and that you could barely see him from behind the wheel. The top of his head was barely visible.

[01:25:56]Passersby look around in amazement and think it was a ghost car.

[01:26:00]Yes, especially him and Wall drove cars around the boat, and there weren't many of them. I do n't remember what year, probably not yet 1945, but the first taxi that started driving around the boat appeared. And since, as rumor has it, Alexander Ford was short, he barely showed behind the wheel, so it must have made an impression. There are many anecdotes from the world of film in this book, but I think for me, more important than these somewhat amusing stories is the great determination shown in organizing the studios, which wasn't easy.

[01:26:56]The Germans either took away or destroyed most of the equipment. It was also the reason why Łódź was chosen as the city for the studio. He used to say that before the war, Warsaw was the center of film life, that most of the staff who survived the war were people connected to the capital, so the proximity of Łódź and Warsaw worked to Łódź's advantage. But it's also the fact that even at the moment when this cultural boom in Łódź is ending and so many institutions and so many creators are fleeing to Warsaw, escaping, the studio remains in Łódź, and the film community is so consolidated in this city. This is probably how you consider the balance sheet for Łódź. This is what this city won from this whole cultural advancement, from this temporary capital. I also wanted to thank you very much for We can see actors we already know in such mature forms as debutants. For example, there's a beautiful photo of Alina Janowska from the set of the film "Treasure." I'll try to show you the year 1945.

[01:28:33]Beautiful, smiling, such a hopeful and open-minded girl, a young, young woman. But also, while writing this chapter about film, you must have been wading through tons of issues of the biweekly "Film." What did you find in the film press back then? How different was it from today, for example?

[01:28:53]And what is filmmaking like today? No, exactly.

[01:28:56]No, well, that was everything. It was probably a window onto the world and a window onto film, so it's wonderful. These stills are great. When I was looking through the resources of various institutions and those archives with photos, I only saw the cover of the film. " Forbidden Songs."

[01:29:24]And Danuta and Jerzy Duszyński.

[01:29:29]Jerzy Duszyński and everyone thought they were a couple, that they were, that they were a couple in life, not just on screen. That's it too.

[01:29:38]It's funny. That photo you showed Janowska earlier is also touching. She's gorgeous, young, and her stories about how she started in Łódź are also fantastic, and they ended up in the book. Among other things, there's the story of how, during forbidden songs, the actors all played in what they had. There were simply no costumes, nothing to change into for the film. People came, the actors came in their own clothes. So, for example, Alina Janowska was hired for the film on the principle of "do you have a coat, do you have a beret, do you have this, do you have that?" "Come tomorrow, if you have one, come to the shoot tomorrow." The leading actress wore her own hat, so when she was later seen in the street wearing the same hat, passersby would say she's so important, she wants to show off, she walks the streets in the hat she wore in the film, right? And that was simply the only headgear the young actress had. She had it. So, again, this mixture of possibilities and desires, of opportunities is here, it's very, very powerful, and it also shows how life was lived in those times, how poor it really was, but also how culture was created, how culture was created. Besides, for me, what's also important in this story, Łódź, Warsaw, is that this first post-war film, Forbidden Songs, is the story of occupation-era Warsaw told through songs, but it's this film shot in Łódź, a film about Warsaw.

[01:31:28]A photo from a photo from working on the set that ended up on the cover of the book.

[01:31:35]This is a photo from the film, from the film Skarb. I mean, not from a photo, from the film, but from the set, from working on the set. And this is again a studio, a studio in Łódź. These are the very creators this story is about, working in Łódź, making a film about Warsaw, so the model of both ruined Warsaw and Warsaw rising from the ruins, from the ruins, is a very symbolic photo for me, and actually also showing this longing, this great, great sentiment for Warsaw.

[01:32:15]And when you talk about these Forbidden Songs, this is also a beautiful photo showing a huge queue of people wanting to get into the cinema. And for me, it's also proof that people truly were aware that, of course, you have to provide bread for your family, but also that this culture nourishes and that it is also necessary for growth, because people of all backgrounds are standing there, but they know it's important and they want to see what's being shown in the cinema. That's how it was. Well, well, well, well, but cinema, cinema has always been this democratic entertainment, right? This is, um, this is, this is wonderful. However, um, um, this was also what theater in postwar Łódź became.

[01:32:58]If we have, for example, this true or false, probably false letter from a worker who refuses that glass of vodka and goes to see another film, Krakowiak and Highlanders, directed by Leon Schiller. Uh, this is both true and untrue, because, for example, um, on um, Elektra On the poetry scene, groups of workers would come, and they were probably organized outings, but yeah, these people also had guaranteed access to culture, which is what's important, it seems to me, all of this, access to education and access to culture, all of this. Which is not without reason, at least for individuals in social advancement. So in Łódź, right after the war, in these institutions that seemed to give people culture, well... Zofia Naukowska at a lecture, Maria Dąbrowska, but the Syrena Theatre and its revue repertoire. And if that's too difficult for someone, it'll be Osa, some other theatres. Smaller ones, so a lot of these events, a very wide range of offerings, tailored to different tastes, different needs, and different audience possibilities.

[01:35:27]And so now I look at the sentence I also underlined: " In those years, in this city, we experienced our greatest adventure," writes Wiktor Woroszylski. "And indeed, I have the impression that this youth, regardless of the times, provides such an additional drive, something that unfortunately cannot be repeated, of course, but even in the most difficult times, this willingness to change, this flexibility, and people accustomed to basically knowing the reality, which was constantly changing. There was no stability there, so they enter so boldly, also with the belief that they are starting something new and important. Despite, as you said, the historical and social background, there are many complex things happening there, yet they have it within them." Such courage to realize what they envisioned, although many of them also have moral dilemmas, of course, about how much they can, for example, submit to the Borejsza's orders, right?

[01:36:25]Mmhm.

[01:36:26]Yes, yes, yes, yes. This, this, this, all of this, um, all of this is happening. But, um, these first post-war years are still mild. In fact, it will only become bleak with the introduction of the doctrine of socialist realism, socialist realism, that things will simply become bleak, and many artists will have to fall silent for a good few years—bad years, I mean—but of course, this will also affect the artists' community and institutions remaining in Łódź. And here, suffice it to mention Władysław Strzemiński and his story, his expulsion from the school of fine arts, and such things will also happen.

[01:37:27]However, I am, of course, signaling this in this book, because for me, the most important thing in this story is this time of building this artistic community, this very rebound after those years of silence during the war, but also signaling, That these artists did n't completely fall silent during the occupation. They, of course, did n't have the opportunity to exhibit, perform, or publish, but it wasn't like they weren't working, even though there was a secret theater council, and that's where work on "Elektra" began for the first time, which will be performed in Łódź on the Poetic Stage.

[01:38:22]So, what happened before 1945 and what happened after 1948 is also important, and this book discusses it, but this period of events, which took place over those three years in post-war Łódź, is completely unprecedented in the history of Polish culture, and it seems to me that it offered something important to tell. Well, earlier, I came across these descriptions scattered somewhere, sometimes in Naukowska's diaries, sometimes in Dąbrowska's diaries, sometimes in Eryk Lipiński's memoirs, sometimes described in a completely satirical and mocking way by, for example, Jerzy Zaruba, but there was something missing. I'd like to see a story like this, where these environments would be discussed in this way. I'm not saying in a monographic way, because this book doesn't have any such ambitions, but I wanted to show this mood, this mood, this kind of enthusiasm, this rising, rising, and with greater or lesser faith, an attempt to position oneself in a new reality. The different attitudes of the creators, even the people who enter the reader's presence and are truly in this pot within the reader, and with what different attitudes they enter this new reality, this is also very interesting and shows that there are truly many shades of gray.

[01:40:27]Ladies and gentlemen, I must say that our conversation has been going on for 40 hours, and I assure you that we may have touched on a few things, not only that, but I want to assure you that we have touched on perhaps a percentage of what you will find in the book. So I encourage you to continue this meeting with Małgorzata Czyńska on your own, in a comfortable armchair. Ideally. And Gosia, before we say goodbye, I wanted to ask you about your reading delights, because I, of course, recommend it. Send your book to me on the boat, so you can discover a whole host of other stories, perhaps also see in great poets and authors, people with ordinary, down-to-earth problems, because you can truly feel the energy of these people through reading. What has delighted you lately? Can you recommend something, and also, how is reading Kobro's biography, which will be reissued? What kind of experience is it?

[01:41:21]So first, these reading delights, and then even more enthralling ones, I've had such that for two days now, unfortunately, I have n't just sat and read, I only pause, but I'm looking forward to reading it. I'm incredibly reading the novel "The Solitude of Sonia and Soni," and now I can't remember. The author's name is Indian, the literary publisher published it, and I really like this novel. I really have the great pleasure of reading novels.

[01:41:55]Um, what's coming up? I just started it and put it aside, and I'll get back to it soon. Lazar published by Margins. This is also the pleasure of novels.

[01:42:11]I love Richard Osman very much and his Thursday edition. Crime Club. Um, so a few days ago, I listened to the latest one. It's simply wonderful, this kind of cozy crime. Um, so these are my pleasures.

[01:42:30]What sounds good, you know?

[01:42:31]Jesus, it's wonderful. Don't you know Thursday's Crime Club?

[01:42:35]No, no, so I'll check it out. They're wonderful. There are already four parts, really.

[01:42:41]I saw there was a film adaptation, even with Helen Miller, and I didn't like the one with Rosna. However, the books are absolutely wonderful, really funny, smart, sad, also really great, super something, something wonderful.

[01:43:00]And the experience of reading your own book is strange.

[01:43:04]Back to Kobro.

[01:43:08]Well, I'm glad, glad that this book will get a second life, and I can't believe it's already been 10 years since its premiere, since its publication.

[01:43:23]Well, there will be a few additional footnotes, not too many, but still. And I'm looking forward to the fact that we'll probably be able to illustrate this book, uh, enrich the illustrations.

[01:43:42]The same as 10 years ago. It couldn't be included in the book, so now it probably will be. So I hope that this will be a book that, even if some of you have read it, might surprise you a little or expand your knowledge.

[01:44:02]About Kobro and, like it or not, about Władysław Strzeliński, although maybe it's not meant to be said, but rather, because she's an important figure in my story about Katarzyna Kobro, and as if there's no point in avoiding dealing with the story about Władysław Strzemiński.

[01:44:26]Ladies and gentlemen, we're waiting for Katarzyna Kobro until September, and if you're already reading, write to me on the boat. We recommend it wholeheartedly. Of course, you can share this conversation. It's on YouTube, so if you'd like to share it with someone, feel free. Małgorzata Czyńska was with us today.

[01:44:45]Thank you very much for meeting with us.

[01:44:48]Good night and a good week. Thank you very much.

[01:44:50]Thanks. And thanks so much for the conversations, and thank you for your patience, because I really don't even I knew this conversation took so long. Thank you.

[01:44:58]Listen, but you didn't disappear from us, you were here, the number of viewers was stable, so you told us just like you wrote here, that even a woman from Łódź wrote that I'm rediscovering my city of Łódź, and for that you thank you. Me too. See you then.

[01:45:13]Thank you very much. See you.

[01:45:14]Goodnight.

[01:45:16]Yeah.