The English Heritage Podcast: Where the sacred meets the sea

[00:00:03][music] Welcome to the English Heritage Podcast and thanks for joining me. I'm Amy Matthews. [music] This is another in our special series focusing on the British coastline. This time we're taking a spiritual angle. I'm going to be finding out about our long history of building sacred places close to the sea. and I'll be asking what it is about our cliffs, islands, and headlands [music] that makes them so perfect for pilgrimage prayer and retreat. And don't forget, you can watch these episodes as well as hear them. So, if you're not looking at us already, go and find us on Spotify and the English Heritage YouTube channel. You can see some of the sites and objects that we're talking about and check out what we look like. Now, I'm delighted to be joined in the studio by Susan Harrison and Jeremy Ashby. It's so lovely to have you both here. Welcome. Hello.

[00:00:55]>> Hello. Thanks very much. It's great to be here.

[00:00:57]>> So lovely. Both of you have done the podcast before, but it's a pleasure to have you here in person. Let's start with you, Jeremy. Give us a bit of context as to how you started working on what you're working with and what was the kind of passion point for you that got you into your line of work.

[00:01:10]>> You know, I've been interested in this stuff since I was a student. So, it's a real pleasure to to read about read around it again and think about some of the brilliant places that we look after now.

[00:01:20]>> And Susan, how about yourself? How did you get into your line of work?

[00:01:23]>> I had a lucky occurrence really where I wrote to um an inspector of ancient monuments, haven't we?

[00:01:32]>> As as we do, [laughter] uh when once I'd finished university and said, "Have you got a job?" And so I got my first job working with collections at English Heritage and uh that was many years ago now.

[00:01:44]>> So Susan, there are lots of sites that we're going to be discussing today that have their roots in the medieval period.

[00:01:50]So what did the medieval church specifically see in the coast that made it such fertile ground for religious life? Well, if we go back really to the word monastic or monasticism and it comes from the Greek and I can't pronounce the Greek but monass um and that means alone. So that gives us a a good clue as to what we're talking about. And then we think about monasticism as we first know it develops in the 3rd and fourth century in Egypt and Syria in the deserts. Again, the people that are seeking a renouncement of worldly pursuits, they are looking to devote themselves to spiritual activities. They're going to uh literally a deserted place to um pursue those. Okay, this is a lovely teaser of all the things we're going to be getting into. I'm very excited. So, as always, we begin with an object. And today's object, it's a really evocative, if not mysterious object in front of me. We've got what looks to me like almost a headstone really. I've not got anything for scale. So, it could be a thumbnail size. It could be the size of a truck.

[00:03:03]I'm sure you'll enlighten me very shortly. But most strikingly, it's got these beautiful runes and and shapes carved into this stone. And the stone itself is reddish brown. Um, and it's it's it's got the the bottom of it slightly um carved off. I don't know if that's intentional or whether that's just where. So, tell me Susan, what am I looking at? Where have we found it? And what's its context? So, this is one of a number almost 20 exciting objects from Lindesfan and we call them namestones.

[00:03:38]>> For size, they're about 20 cm high.

[00:03:43]>> Okay.

[00:03:43]>> So, quite tiny really. But you're right, they are the shape of what we'd think now of as a gravestone or memorial stone just in miniature.

[00:03:53]>> And so yeah, it's um it's relatively thin.

[00:03:56]>> Um and it has a rounded top and a squared base. So the bits at the bottom you can see are broken off. This particular example is incredibly finely carved. And what you can see is the shape of a cross.

[00:04:10]>> Yes. Um and that cross conveniently divides the stone into quadrants or quarters.

[00:04:18]Um and across the top quarters is a personal name in runic letters. So an old style of language written down as it sounds.

[00:04:31]And then in the lower quarters are Anglo-Saxon Latin capital letters of the same name repeated. So we're talking about two cultures and languages coming together here. And the name that it says is Osgith which is the name of a lady.

[00:04:53]If we also look at the namestone we can see that the cross is beautifully figured. In the very center you can see a little um hollow that may have contained a jewel. Now that a jewel might be a stone or something like that. And then the whole stone as well was likely painted probably in quite bright colors. We see this time and time again, don't we? We get this idea that it everything was very monochrome and earthy, but actually it's just where the pigments have disintegrated over time. So this would have been a pretty bedazzled bright object.

[00:05:30]>> Yeah. So if you can get into your mind um an illuminating manuscript like the Lindesfan Gospels, one of the greatest manuscripts ever to be produced in um Britain and think of the colors and the pallets within that. This was probably done by the same artist, the same color palette of those that wrote the Lindesvan Gospels. So, we can add earthly greens and reds, whites, um, to this and really pick out the name.

[00:06:06]That's beautiful. And for anybody who hasn't heard our previous episodes, could you give us a a quick rundown of what the Lindesf Gospels are? Um, and just a bit of context uh with for that site. So the gospels literally are a a manuscript writing a copy in the gospels. They are written in around 700 to 720. They're the work of one man and they are an exceptional example of illumination. So decoration with the word of God and they are um dedicated to God. Fantastic. And I'm really struck as well by even though we've lost a lot of the pigment and the the sort of potential center jewel, the distinct lines are still very much there that it's so well preserved. It's yeah, it's a really really beautiful piece. So now we've got an idea of who this is an ode to. Who is Osgus? Who who is she? What do we do? We know anything about her.

[00:07:02]Ironically, this is the only testament to her having existed.

[00:07:08]And that I think is incredible. So when we think um up until um about 10 years ago, we knew of about 14 15 of these stones from Linda's farm priary. Their unique North Umbrean style. Um and over more recent years, more have been dug up through a series of excavations that have been run just outside the primary limits there. And every name that appears on these namestones is only on these stones. So it's the only record of members of this community community that probably knew um some of the great players of the Anglo-Saxon period a number of the North Umbrean saints um the memory of Kuthbet St. Huthbert. And it's amazing to think this is a way into understanding that community >> and the significance of just a name. The fact that she was named even though we don't know what she does or what kind of context we would find her in.

[00:08:10]>> But it also tells us about her relative importance. You know, you've got to be somebody of some particular standing to be memorialized in stone at that point.

[00:08:21]And the other thing to pick up here is this is the name of a woman and there are only two females named on these stones. The rest are male. But again, it leads us into think who is this community composed of and why in the history books when we read about um bead and the life of the English people that he predominantly refers to the male members of community and who have made history.

[00:08:51]>> Absolutely. And now here we are in 2026 still talking about her. And that's the importance of it, isn't it? And speaking of the community around this this mystery woman, I mean, Lindesf really brings together lots of very interesting ideas about identity, faith, community.

[00:09:07]We've covered some of that in earlier episodes. So, could you talk a little bit about how this site is is is um significant in that way. So, Lindesf Holy Island is like the name sounds is an island and in fact was a proper island until about the 1950s.

[00:09:25]And so nowadays you reach it on a causeway um covered by the tide twice a day. But in this period right the way up through to the 20th century you had to get there by boat >> or you would potentially walk across the sands um at low tide. So the sea would have been I mean obviously integral to its identity but also the the people living there the the rhythms of it the cycles the tides that would have obviously been a huge part of life there and I'd imagine that um that speaks to maybe the kind of spirituality and and flow of of life more broadly. How how would those kind of rhythms and tidal patterns have have helped or or dictated what life was like there? Well, if we think back to those first um monks in a desert and we think back to that feeling of isolation, >> one of the tenants that comes through into a later reform period of monasticism is uh far from the concourse of man. M >> um and it's about um being away from that main hustle and bustle, the ability to retreat, to concentrate on work and study, uh work and study being very integral to a lot of prayer >> and all to the glory of God.

[00:10:47]>> That's absolutely fascinating. So, we're going to dive a little bit more into the significance of Lindesvan Priaryy being where it currently stands because obviously it's indicative of of medieval Christian society thinking of coasts as perhaps a a remote space. Um Jeremy, I'm going to bring you in here. What did it mean for people's spirituality and and spiritual living? Well, Susan has already set this up absolutely beautifully with thinking back to the early days of the desert fathers and I mean that is undeniably very prominent in their minds and we actually know quite a lot about what the people at Lindesf were thinking fortunately because it's in Northland and she's already mentioned the name of the venerable bead who comes a little bit later than the first Christian colonization on Lindesvan but it was a place that I think he knew very well he was only a few miles away he knew some of these people and He writes about them and in particular it it figures in his great work the ecclesiastical history of of of England but it also features in a very specific work that he writes the life of the great saint of Lindisant Cuthbbert and I want to talk a little bit about Cuthbbert because actually some of the tension between escaping into the desert and being a part of the world is very important and as you yourself said [snorts] knowing Being that Lindesvan at some times of the day is actually open to the mainland. People could wade across. They could come across in boats and at other times was completely cut off. Even today, the people on the island are very aware of what the tide is doing. If they want to get off, you got to go now, you know, and then you're not going to come back for several hours. So, yeah, there there are rhythms certainly that are going in there. I mean, general points to make is that the sea is powerful. It has an elemental force and presence. And I think for everyone, you know, even people of no religion at all, you're confronted with, you know, the power of the elements in in its capricious moods when it's calm and when it's violent.

[00:12:51]And I think for people whose life was dominated by thinking of God, that was a very strong thought. It was a place of danger for them as much as anything.

[00:13:02]But I'd like to suggest that as well as escaping into the desert, sometimes the sea was also a great highway. And that's something that I think we'll see when we look at a lot of these sites. That just as sometimes they thought they were escaping completely from the distractions of the world to a place that they they chose to be uncomfortable that would mortify their flesh. And perhaps they would even be, you know, talking about fighting demons in living out there in this remote place, at other times they'd be able to watch the world go by. So just as Lindesfan is out at the sea, when you're there, you can see other places. As you look down the coast, you can see Bambra, which is now a royal castle and in this time was a great royal center on a high rock. And you you're never far away from you can look across to the mainland. there were other villages and churches there. So they were trying to live apart but they were also not completely disengaged from the world.

[00:14:03]>> If you think about um even food source >> Yeah.

[00:14:06]>> and um anything that they want they've got to work hard to get that. So you've either got to arrange supplies or um quite often the landscape is a difficult one um and there might not be as many woods for your construction. You've got to think about uh your stone supply uh and everything to do with that.

[00:14:29]>> Yeah, there's no convenience, is there?

[00:14:31]It all sort of has to be earned mindfully.

[00:14:34]>> It's got to be earned mindfully, but sometimes the elements may be good for you. So, there's a rather nice anecdote about St. Cathart that when he every so often St. Cathart had a moment where Lindesfan just wasn't remote enough for him. He has to go somewhere else. And quite often a big place in this is a is an island called the inner farm which is we call it inner but it's actually quite a long way off the coast and he wanted to have a hermitage there that where really he would be separate but one of the things that he wanted was having done a certain amount of building work and prepared the place for it still had a very rough and uneven surface and he said to the brothers on Lindesvan can you bring me some wood so I can actually put down a nice claw so I won't always be suffering on these hard rocks. And they said, "Yes, yes, Kath, and then forgot about it." But through a miracle, the sea came to his rescue and washed up a piece of flatsom, a big plank. That will do nicely, said Kath. Thank you very much. And then he had this plank that he could sleep on.

[00:15:34]>> Oh, incred. That's such a lovely anecdote. That's brilliant. And I mean, obviously, we've spoken about Lindesf.

[00:15:40]What other uh sites have we got in addition to Lindesf? So another great example is that of Whitby Abbey which is in on the North Yorkshire coast. So Lindesfan is um started in the 7th century but it also is refounded um in the later medieval period and we see the same at Whitby.

[00:16:02]>> Ah okay. Um so Whitby has um that early foundation um and then refounded in the 11th century um because of its location and because of different ideals happening that relate back to that ideal of the seeking spirituality but also the history of a place and [clears throat] its convenience and its inconvenience.

[00:16:28]So, I'm really pleased that Susan just talked about Whitby Abbey because that leads us on to a whole other discussion.

[00:16:33]The monastery of Whitby, hopefully many people will know it, is on a clifftop overlooking uh the river mouth and the town of Whitby underneath it, you know, is a quite sort of bustling has been a fishing port at times. It has all sort of sorts of other purposes. Now it's quite interesting that Whitby Abbey was partly the initiative of royal figures and some of the people who are involved.

[00:16:58]I mean as Susan has said these are leaders in society.

[00:17:02]um you know its early abbas Hilda who becomes a saint you know has close connections to the royal house in you know that part of England and you will see this time and time again they're quite you know the these are people with connections at the very highest places in society who have the money they make it happen but I think it's also they're pursuing some of their own agendas they have placed their monks and nuns in places where everyone can see them and they will attract donations, but also their monks and nuns are looking down and seeing what's going on in the town and you know who's sailing in and out of the harbor and all that other thing. So there's a certain secular agenda that is satisfied by having these sites where they are too.

[00:17:50]>> Sure. I mean it's a Taylor's oldest time itself, isn't it? the the patronage as much as it can facilitate one thing also means that these positions and influences of power are percolating down um with everybody's own sort of initiatives the monasteries and the the abbies themselves on the coast would have had a a protective and defensive role as well kinds of things would they have been protecting us from famously we've got Viking raids at um our northern monastic sites and they are devastating you know huge huge um events that rock Christendom throughout Europe.

[00:18:26]And then we've got things like um in the later history we've got Scottish raids happening and we've got evidence of in in the account book at Lindesfan of um what weaponry and armor is owned by the monastery and we've even got um the site being built with a partic battlement wall and we've got arrow slits in the church for defense.

[00:18:52]>> It wears many masks.

[00:18:53]>> It it does wear many masks. I mean the the fortifications at Lindesf are actually rather interesting. They're curious. But because Lindesf itself is the the shape of the monastery itself, and I think they tried to actually fortify, you know, that I don't think it was a wild success, which is why actually much more successful has been saying, "Oh, to hell with that. Let's build Lindeswan Castle just a little bit up the up the lane, you know, which is a site of National Trust, which is purpose-built and is amazing." But I mean, another one is Tinemouth, which is rather interesting. It's another one with a an early history. It's talked about there is a monastery at the mouth of the time that's talked about the time of the venerable bead that has connections to royal saints and that's another one that's refounded after the Norman conquest. Um the church part of it still survives in that period. But as an English heritage site we call it tinmouth priaryy and castle because it has a real duality to it particularly late in the 14th century. They fortify it in a really big way and you don't get into that site without going through this enormous gate house which is like I mean architecturally it's a little bit like the castle at Belce and it's not a million miles away from one of my favorite buildings in the hall of English heritage the gate house at Dunenbra which is one of the mightiest castle buildings anyway the the prior at timemouth wasn't far far behind them he built himself something that had real stopping power and they actually continued to fortify the site after the dissolution. It's a very because it's in this very commanding site at the mouth of one of the great rivers of England.

[00:20:27]So >> all of the reasons it's connecting, it's also great at protecting as well.

[00:20:32]>> And if you think as well about again particularly the later um medieval period monasteries, if they're in these remote places, you've got areas where the king cannot rule properly, cannot reach. So he's actually asking the monastery to act as his feudal lords to perform law and order to collect the tithes. And we've got evidence of um somewhere like Furness Abbey where they're acting for King Richard III. And we even know that the abbot is paying Jews to the king and he's going in order for the king to hold his coronation. And the abbot goes to the coronation of Richard III at York Minster.

[00:21:16]>> Gosh.

[00:21:16]>> So it just shows they're massive political players at this time as well.

[00:21:21]>> The most connected people for sure.

[00:21:23]>> Susan has been looking forwards, but I'd like to look back a little bit, but not quite as far as going back to the desert fathers. Lindesf rather interesting.

[00:21:31]talking about the Lun Gospels was quite good because culturally there's a a strange ad mixture going on between the culture of the Anglo-Saxons. This is the Germanic people who had settled England at the beginning of the fifth century is what England is actually named after. Um and they were converted to Christianity through the mission of St. Augustine and some of his followers um in the very end of the uh sixth century in the in the seventh century. But there's another branch of Christianity, the Celtic Christianity from the western parts of Britain. And Lindesfan, in fact, had initially been founded by them. Um, particularly from people coming from the island monastery of Iona, which is off the west coast of Scotland. And I'd like to say that actually that's quite significant in the choice of coastal and island places. This was a world that they understood. Again, it's a sort of similar kind of thing. is just off the mainland and actually all the way around what we used to as archaeologists sometimes call the Irish sea culture province but we just call it western Britain you get outposts of sort of hermitlike um monasticism there another quite famous one and there are in fact there are several off the west coast of Ireland a place called Skeleig Michael which of all unusual things appeared in one of the Star Wars films so it's quite famous for that but you get lots and lots of little beehive huts in which um Celtic monks lived a solitary and it has to say a pretty uncomfortable looking experience um on a rock out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Now, Lindesvan isn't quite that, but that's the world that it comes out of. And at Lindesfan, you get this interesting mixture of the Celtic world, which is, I think, sort of a bit closer to the world of hermits, a bit closer to nature, and the Anglo-Saxons, who are a bit more um ready for the kind of communal monasticism. They are, you know, they've been converted to Christianity by a missionary from Rome. And so, they're a bit more in touch with with what I might call the mainstream of of of Christianity on on continental Europe.

[00:23:39]So it's so there's some funny things going on there, but I think that that does give some significance to these remote coastal locations out at sea.

[00:23:48]>> Absolutely. And I mean it's it's you know making more and more sense that this duality of community and isolation is plays such a spiritual role for for these monasteries. But obviously monasteries were also money-making enterprises. They're they're businesses.

[00:24:02]So, so how does this commercial aspect fit into the location and specifically how does that interact with this with the spiritual role as well? So, we talk about commercial but actually that's not a prime function. That is a way of making everything else happen. So, you have to have that economic base, >> a facilitator for everything else.

[00:24:25]>> Exactly. But then they become political players because these are the educated people of the time and these are the movers and shakers. They're talking to the kings. They're talking to the spiritual leaders across Europe. They are forming new ideas and new ways of thinking. Um they're developing new architecture.

[00:24:49]>> Yeah.

[00:24:49]>> There's so much happening.

[00:24:51]>> They're just at the forefront of sort of everything.

[00:24:54]>> Yeah. politically, architecturally.

[00:24:57]Yeah, that's fascinating. And and Jeremy, >> I I mean, I think Susan's absolutely right. And when they speak about themselves, they do tend to talk about the the secular world as a distraction, a temptation, you know, something to be avoided. But actually I think it's not quite as simple as that because these monasteries as well as being you know inhabited by you know religious men and by and large I am talking about men but there are also religious women involved but they also have secular patrons whom they have to sort of keep in touch with a little bit and sometimes it's those patrons who are actually responsible for why a place is founded when and where it is. I'd love to get a broader idea of who are the kinds of people living in these coastal monasteries. Was it just religious folks themselves? Was it broader communities? Who who was there?

[00:25:46]That's a really interesting question because we don't fully know the answers.

[00:25:51]We think of the later communities as being very closed off. But I think the earlier communities probably had more more visitors um more happening. And if we think about the monastery perhaps being off to a side, a settlement starts to surround them. So what happens? It's it's a great question. What comes first, the monastery or the settlement? Um and some of them develop literally side by side.

[00:26:19]>> That's perfect. So there's a kind of symbiosis between these these two things.

[00:26:23]>> That is right. Now I mean I said earlier on that my interest in this I I started thinking about this when I was an archaeology student. is fascinating and it's a it's a really great area for archaeology all through the 20th century and I think probably going on into the wait yes going on into the 21st century people have been digging these sites up and trying to find it and Whitby Abby is a really amazing one because from the 1920s um a sort of predecessor of Susan's and mine Charles Pierce the chief inspector who' be the predecessor of the person who gave Susan her job you know dug up the headland of Whitby Abby and we've been trying for decades to work out what it was that he found. And several years ago now, uh, a former colleague of ours, Tony Wilmont, the archaeologist, dug quite a lot on the headland. They haven't found the Anglo-Saxon monastery. They think it's probably under the later monastery. But what they did find is a quite thriving secular settlement that seems to have, you know, quite a lot of activity going on on the top right next to ne next to where we we think the the abbey must be.

[00:27:28]And to use another quite famous historical anecdote we talked from Whitby the abbey again I mean we talked about uh St. Hild who was its first abbess and in charge and one of the stories that the venerable bead tells is of a man called Kedmmon who obviously was illiterate he didn't know he couldn't read the Latin so he wasn't a full choir monk or anything like that but he did have a great ability to be able to improvise poetry in the English language and apparently he's visited having escaped from a feast because he's going to get embarrassed when the harp comes around and he's going to be a bit rubbish and can't sort of sing properly he goes off to his cow shed to hide and is visited by an angel who says to him, you know, sing me a song. And he sings, you know, he basically improvises the beginning of the book of Genesis, I think it is, in the English language.

[00:28:17]And eventually this comes to the attention of Abz Hild who goes, you're being a monk, mate. You know, I want you in. And so all of that, but that's a nice example of a secular person living in the monastery who later gets absorbed by that monastic culture but was formerly separate from it.

[00:28:34]>> Got head-hunted.

[00:28:35]>> Absolutely.

[00:28:36]>> It's extraordinary.

[00:28:37]>> You will also get um royal figures who deliberately go and live in the monastery in their later life as well.

[00:28:44]And again, this happens both in the early medieval period and the later period mainly because they want to atone for their sins. Right. [laughter] Okay.

[00:28:52]So, the equivalent of a sort of deathbed confession just to sort of get it in late in life.

[00:28:57]>> I see. And would there be um sort of residencies that they'd take up? Would it would it be sort of for how long would they do these sort of stints?

[00:29:05]>> You would it would vary I'm sure.

[00:29:07]>> Yeah. You generally it's seen as a lifetime occupation, right? So at whatever point you come to it in your lifetime that is then >> certainly in the later middle ages it's quite a good thing to do when you realize that death is approaching you know um you give them all your property you know you die wearing the habit of a monk as a monk you're going to go straight to heaven I see that that's quite a good thing to do and you have atoned for all of the things that you've previously done >> that makes total sense and I mean we've mentioned quite a few of of the sites now and I I wonder how much do we see them well and continue to see them perhaps as practical landmarks because as they are coastal I'm assuming as well they start to play play a role in in maritime life >> they do >> how how does that manifest >> sometimes you know even just you know putting a beacon or a light you know on the top of the top of the building I think St. Katherine's um in in Dorset just to move out of the the north country for a moment. That's one that is and um I'm from Kent. We have a quite important one recala which is another Anglo-Saxon minster church that's set up on a clifftop in the remains of a Roman fort. And until I think it may even be the case now, but the two later towers of the church were a beacon, a landmark or sea mark for for Trinity House. And there were times when they wanted to the the vicar wanted to take the church down. Trinity House wasn't having it.

[00:30:34]Real Towers have got to stand cuz it's it's it's how all the sailors around that part of the coast will be able to navigate.

[00:30:40]>> The same happened at Whitby. Um so Whitby, the church uh tower was the navigation aid. Um, and even from the dissolution, the church tower remained because it was so important to mariners.

[00:30:54]>> That's extraordinary. That's >> It unfortunately sometimes doesn't work to our favor. There's a rather sad moment in the First World War when um the Germans actually shell the ruins of Whippy Abby and knock down part of the west front of it.

[00:31:06]>> Oh gosh. Because it is that prominent, you know, as a site.

[00:31:09]>> That makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, I love it when we get our layered histories as well. is just it's incredible that it's withstood so much and played such a part in all of these these these different lives and times.

[00:31:20]How much do these sites differ from their inland counterparts? Like were they culturally architecturally different these monasteries?

[00:31:28]>> I mean there are I'd say there are quite a lot of similarities and Susan said something really important at the very beginning. There's a phrase that she used being far from the concourse of men which is a sort of great motto of the cisters order um which is you know a another one of the reformed orders of monasticism who wanted to sort of get away from the distractions of the world and in a sense escape to the desert.

[00:31:50]Only problem is they were just too good at it. So people tended to follow them and so what were they were supposed to be living apart um Furness Abbey in the northwest quite an important site it's on a coastal site quite close to an estie. is near now the town of Barrow and Furnace sort of was grown up you know next to it that's a Cersian site but in other ways it almost you know could be anywhere it's the remoteness of it is is the important thing the specificity of it being facing out towards the sea is sort of an incidental detail so I would say that there are some things that do sort of mark them out I mean the the kind of economy that they can live you know they can't by by their very nature you know you're not going to have huge pastures of sheep around because the the the land just doesn't work for it. So, you might well live from the fruits of the sea, the fishing industry suddenly will be a big thing in your diet. That's certainly the case at at Whitby and at Lindes Farm, for example.

[00:32:48]>> And would they have been more connected in the sense that I'm guessing travel by boat would have been quicker than on land? So, would was there a sort of a greater sense of connectivity on the coastal sites? The best way to travel is by sea because you've got a reliable method. Okay, there's still danger involved in it, but a lot of the monasteries and um and royalty will maintain wararfs um and harbors to enable trade to take place.

[00:33:22]>> Um so yeah, absolutely >> and certainly we see that in some of the early sites. I mean the venerable beads monastery which was in fact on two locations one of them the mouth of the river weir and one of them on the south bank of the tine when you read bead's history of that monastery they're always going off to the you know whenever they they can't think of anything else to do I know I'm going to go on pilgrimage to Rome and off they get in their boat and off they go so you know because >> we've all been there on a slow day you know >> well you [laughter] know in a sense it's they are right next to a mainline railway station it's kind of quite easy for them to get away >> later medieval abbies um own ships Right. So, it's their it's their property and and their sort of mode of transport.

[00:34:01]>> And if you think again they're part of a European movement. How are they going to get across to Europe? They are going to get on ships and boats.

[00:34:11]>> For sure. And I think I mean we've we've touched on a few different points in history as to how these these um these places have have played a role, but I wonder if bringing bringing it back to our present right now. What is it about these places and spaces that still hold so much power for us now? you know, they are still, as much as they're dramatic and cinematic and incredible to engage with, they also have practical functions and and um ways that connect us and obviously spiritual significance as well. So, I wonder if we might move to our present day and think about how they how they play a role in our modern lives now.

[00:34:50]>> In a way, I mean, this can only be a bit subjective and unless I you know, we were to do a sort of survey about it. I I I do think that by their very nature these places have atmosphere. There's no getting away from all of that which is partly brought to you by the sound effects and the you know the lighting effects of the you know being you know by by the sea in all its in all its different moods.

[00:35:13]I also think that I mean almost by its very nature you know we've made lots of references back to the early periods of history and and Christianity in this country. So, you know, it's not entirely a coincidence that most of the places that we've been talking about have got very deep roots. And I think that feels very strong that when you go to Lindesfan, you do feel the the pull of the past in a much more um powerful form than I think you do at quite a lot of other places. You think actually when I look at that rock, that cliff, I'm actually seeing what St. Aiden and St. Kuthbart saw and all of the many generations of pilgrims and monks and nuns and settlers that have that have lived there in the past. And I think that's just as powerful um as as as the the the the coastal sort of effects of the place. Well, >> it's the connecting experience, isn't it? That even across all of that time and geography that we can experience certainly through our senses the same sensual experience as as you know would have been had had then. Um how about yourself? I think it's something to do with the breadth of the landscape that you get when you're there. So, it's it's going back. It's the heavens and the earth meeting. Um, it's that distance that you can see what's beyond that. And quite often you've got a dramatic landscape. You've either got a low-lying island and it's disappearing into the sea as its edge or you've got really steep cliffs.

[00:36:44]Yeah. So again, there's lots of myths and legends built up around the the landscape of each monastery as well.

[00:36:50]>> Everyone can relate to either I think staring at fire and staring out at the sea. There's something ancient in it, isn't there? That that connects us all humanly to it. Yeah. You you sort of feel connected to something whether that's yourself or something bigger.

[00:37:03]>> I think we do feel the smallalness of our own existence when confronted by something that is so big. Well, Susan and Jeremy, thank you both so much for joining me. And don't forget, you can watch all our episodes in this special coastal series. So, [music] if you're not looking at us already, go and find us on Spotify and the English Heritage YouTube channel. Next week, we'll be celebrating the unveiling of another English Heritage Blue Plaque. This time, honoring a man who devoted his life to fighting racism and discrimination in the East End of London. Kamal Chanchi.

[00:37:38]I'll be finding out more about the courage and determination of this incredible man.

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