Michelle! (Thriving After a CULT)

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]Hey guys, before I get into the video, I did want to mention that we are doing another woman's retreat this year and some of you guys were asking how you could support. We are selling art to be able to help the funding for these retreats. These retreats are for ex-FLDS girls and ex-Order girls. Girls that have come from these um cults basically and we're trying to provide some therapeutic stuff that they can bring back home with them. Maybe some somatic healing, just teaching them how to teaching myself too. Like I come go on these retreats as well. But hopefully these retreats can help all of us to be able to bond together and walk away with some knowledge on how to kind of cope with all of the trauma. We're also doing a men's retreat for the first time this year as well. If you are interested in supporting the cause, I'm going to leave a link to where you can donate and also an Instagram where you can purchase this art and all of these pieces, all of the money for these pieces is going towards these retreats.

[00:00:53]Thank you guys so much for all the love and support and I hope you enjoy this episode. Hey guys, welcome back to my channel. If you're new here, my name is Amanda Rae and I escaped a polygamous cult known as The Order and this is my cousin Michelle who also escaped the same polygamous cult. For newcomers, I'm going to tell you kind of how we're related. Michelle is the daughter of Jesse.

[00:01:13]Jesse is my dad's half-brother and you escaped on Escaping Polygamy at How old were you? 17. 17.

[00:01:22]I get confused on what what's real and what's not anymore.

[00:01:26]What's a you thing and what's like an Order thing that was instilled in you?

[00:01:31]Yeah, especially that the was thing.

[00:01:34]The saying we was, I did not know that that wasn't Am I saying that right?

[00:01:39]>> [laughter] >> I'm like now I'm like over-analyzing myself. That's not accurate. Yeah.

[00:01:43]>> That was the one thing was like bees good.

[00:01:46]Bees good. But like that would be an Order thing.

[00:01:49]>> [clears throat] >> But there are things that like happen like that that other people don't say. One of the funniest ones, I didn't tell you this, Allison. It's Jake who was saying, "Other people doesn't believe me."

[00:02:01]>> [laughter] >> So some of it is like lingo that's completely order like wet and mess, like wetting your pa- pants and messing your pants. That's weird, right? But other stuff is just us being stupid. Like other people doesn't believe me.

[00:02:13]>> [laughter] >> Well, it's not even us like intentionally being stupid. It's just us being Yeah, [laughter] we're just uneducated people.

[00:02:20]We're just stupid. Anyways, welcome back to the podcast of uneducated people.

[00:02:25]>> [laughter] >> There's times that I am like at work and I tell people like if they're going to be like on my team and we're having a meeting and I say, "If I say some weird [ __ ] sometimes, it's because I grew up weird."

[00:02:38]>> [laughter] >> Oh, I mean, but tell me though if I say some weird [ __ ] and it's like offensive cuz it shouldn't be like offensive [ __ ] but it's like just weird. I want to ask you a question on this. We have an audience here today.

[00:02:49]So if you hear people in the background, it is a familiar voice, it's Allison.

[00:02:53]They might be chiming in here and there.

[00:02:55]Uh but before we get into I have all these notes of things I want to talk about. You were just What were you just saying before I lose the chain of train of thought? About at work? Oh, oh, oh.

[00:03:06]In life, since you've left the order, be honest, how much have you played the "But I came from a cult" card? Things that I say that that are just very blunt and I say, I don't know, like that was a big reason is because I came from a cult and it's like let's get to the point. We don't have time to sit around.

[00:03:24]Okay.

[00:03:25]>> be like "Oh, I was offending you. It's cuz I came from a cult." It's just kind of more of like, "Oh, I was unaware, not because I'm trying to be like disrespectful, but because I was raised in the cult."

[00:03:38]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Please educate me."

[00:03:39]I've done the same thing. Like that has happened more often recently as I've been like meeting new people and I I have done it like, "Oh, I didn't realize that this is a moment where I'm being educated right now that this is actually not normal. So like thank you for pointing that out. Not in a sense of like feel bad for me I came from a cult, but one time that I can think of, I did so I was making my Airbnb in Flagstaff.

[00:04:06]And I got my very first um customer.

[00:04:10]And she goes down there and immediately she's like, "Amanda?" I'm like, "Yes."

[00:04:15]She's like, "I can't stay here."

[00:04:18]>> [laughter] >> And I'm like, "Why?"

[00:04:21]So [snorts] scared that she's going to give me a bad review. My first customer, it's going to ruin my business that I by the way spent like 10 over $10,000 remodeling that basement so that it could be ready for an Airbnb. She brings me down there and she shows me, "Is this blood in the bathtub?" And I was like, "No, it's paint. Like we just we just painted the wall red. Like see." And I'm like trying to convince her to stay and she's like, "You can't have There There was like a I swear to God she was just being over I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like a little a little blood in the bathtub never hurt anyone.

[00:04:51]>> [laughter] >> And like that's all you need to say.

[00:04:55]But um >> [laughter] >> then she pointed to like this little pool of water in the next to the sink and she's like, "It's just like post-COVID. You have to clean that [ __ ] up." Like and I was like, She's like, "I can't stay here anymore.

[00:05:07]I need a refund." And she's getting mad and I and I I closed the door.

[00:05:11]And I go, "I'm going to level with you here.

[00:05:16]I and I did make it sound like it was more recent. I left the cult and I'm like new to this out here and I'm like struggling to to like make it and I put everything into this Airbnb. I can't [snorts] afford to have a bad review." And she's like, "What?

[00:05:35]You [snorts] What What was it? I Oh my God, I'm so sorry." I'm like, "Yeah."

[00:05:40]"Will you tip me extra if I tell [laughter] you the story? Will you stay?

[00:05:44]I'm so lonely."

[00:05:45]>> [laughter] >> No, I didn't say that much, but I was like she was nice enough to not give me the bad review. I even think she left a good review. I can't remember fully, but >> No blood in the She lied.

[00:05:57]No blood in this bathtub. Well, there actually wasn't blood, it was paint.

[00:06:02]But so I'm curious if you've ever saw like kind of been in a corner where you felt like the last card to play was that >> [laughter] >> that card.

[00:06:11]I don't When I think of like after you explained that when scenarios that come to mind for me are like when people have like poor work ethic or like don't know how to use common sense and I'm like I found some sense laying around and I was in the order.

[00:06:28]>> Yeah, so what's what's your excuse?

[00:06:29]>> figure it out. Yeah, because like I think a big thing is like not being willing to hear another person's perspective when it comes to just like well, this is just the way like life works. It's like okay, well everyone's obviously not doing it that exact way. So can you not sit around for 5 minutes and see that not everyone does it that way. Yeah. I do think that I've I've related in that sense where when I found that someone was struggling out here for something that we just didn't even have time to struggle with and that we're I don't I I had a hard time sympathizing with it.

[00:07:04]>> Like first world problems.

[00:07:05]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like okay, cry a [ __ ] river. Yeah. My dad's [ __ ] his sister right now.

[00:07:10]>> [laughter] >> There's definitely been moments where I'm like um like kind of like the people are people are dying. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:20]>> or when people say something about like oh, my mom or dad didn't do this and they got me this for Christmas instead of this and I'm like I mean, I had to pay for my own presents, but I mean that that works, I guess.

[00:07:32]>> I lived or died, but good for you.

[00:07:35][laughter] Actually, they said they would happily kill me.

[00:07:38]Sadly, here I am. Yeah, unfortunately for them, I'm alive. I know. Do you ever think um uh >> [sighs] >> How do I word this? Not that if Not that they wish that we were dead, but in a in a weird way they underestimated us because we were women. They were like, "Oh, they're going to leave and they're not going to get far." And now they're looking at our [ __ ] like [ __ ] Well, I think not just that, but I think also saying like if we don't give them attention, they won't have an lot to talk about. And they'll like give up basically. I think they underestimated us in that aspect where they thought like, "Oh, yeah, they're going to just give up in trying to reach out to us."

[00:08:18]Which I mean, we did, but now we're coming to try to help other people.

[00:08:23]I look at it as like I've said this so many times, but the way that they thought that I would just give up when you just took everything from me and then now you made an enemy out of me. And And now you took everything from someone who has nothing to [ __ ] lose. Mhm. That was your [ __ ] bad. Well, and I think like with my parents, because my mom talked to me for a while after I left to try to get like Escaping Polygamy not to air and all of that. But um like so I think at that point they were trying to see how far I would go and if they could bring me back in. And then they said, "Okay, well, that's not working. Now we're going to kind of isolate her and like cut her off and then see if she'll come back." Cuz they did say tell people like, "Oh, she's just on vacation. She's going to come back." And my mom fully knew like we had had our my court date in place. But they were lying to the masses.

[00:09:15]>> Yeah, because they're like, "We're going to be able to get her to come back."

[00:09:17]Wow. And then like in the end just saying like we don't know what to do and how to handle it. But like you said, you I have nothing to lose now. But also like when it comes to that, my dad was so like egotistical that he showed me all of his weak spots. Because like where he would like go off the deep end, then it was like, "Okay, well that's obviously something that sends you off the deep end."

[00:09:44]>> Yeah.

[00:09:45]>> So it's like you gave me the rule book.

[00:09:47]Why are you mad when I use that rule book you gave me? Yeah. I It's like you're winning the game that they thought they invented. Yeah. But you figured it out.

[00:09:57]>> No, I was there not just to listen and do what I was told. It was also to watch. Mhm. To be able to get to this point. Observe. Yeah, there is a scary part of And I think that scares my dad Yeah.

[00:10:10]>> on some level, whether he admits it or not.

[00:10:12]Uh oh, I have so many topics that I want to discuss in what you were just saying, but one of them is I'm so curious for those of you who maybe don't know Michelle was on the show Escaping Polygamy. The episode was called Ava.

[00:10:24]Was it called >> Escaping Wedlock.

[00:10:26]>> Escaping Wedlock, and her name was Ava on there. And my question for you is when you started Escaping Polygamy, cuz for me personally, it was back to that what I was saying like the I'm getting my vengeance. Like you just made an enemy out of me. You don't even know who you made an enemy out of. Um what was the drive for you to go on Escaping Polygamy?

[00:10:46]Well, the biggest thing was for me it was like I was watching Escaping Polygamy when I was in the order. Oh, that's true. So you saw us.

[00:10:53]>> I was watching you make fun of me.

[00:10:55]>> [laughter] >> No.

[00:10:55]>> Like look at how mad he's running over there.

[00:10:57]>> I wasn't. But I like [laughter] I would watch it like secretly myself, and then my mom would watch it after we would go to bed. And then I would like sneak in her room, and she's like, "You shouldn't be watching this." And I'm like, "Okay."

[00:11:09]And then I keep watching it with her.

[00:11:10]>> she was watching it alone, and then After all the kids went to bed.

[00:11:14]>> Wow, so the moms are watching, too.

[00:11:16]>> Yeah, and that's what I knew people were watching it. It just had to be like hush-hush. So I was like, "My story's going to be told within the order anyways." Right.

[00:11:24]>> But if I can have partially like have a say in that, >> Mhm. that's the only way for me to do it is to go on Escaping Polygamy. That's a good point.

[00:11:32]>> like for the world to be like oh yeah, this is what happened. It was like, no, I want my siblings to hear from my mouth rather than from my dad's mouth.

[00:11:40]>> Yeah, and you knew exactly the narrative that he was going to try to to taint your name with.

[00:11:45]>> Mhm. And that's the shitty thing in the order.

[00:11:48]Even when you're in there, you have like so little control about your reputation there. It's really only the people that are in your inner circle that know who you are that um even like Rachel and Esco, they were like, I know Amanda and I know that these things that mom and dad are saying isn't true. But even my siblings that were too young, like my little brother Jake had a hard time. He was like, but I remember Amanda being kind to me. Like I remember Amanda taking care of me and these good memories of her and he would like cling to those, but it was hard for him to cling to those after so many years of being told something else.

[00:12:22]>> Right. But >> rewriting the story. You're right. Like you going on Skating Polly me and then when they look up to you and they want to watch that, then it reminds them, okay, yeah, that's I do have those memories. Those aren't false memories.

[00:12:34]>> They're lying, right.

[00:12:35]>> Mhm. Cuz I remember like going back to my mom's house and dropping off like the phone I had in the order, and I didn't cuz I got a new phone. I didn't want to have like [clears throat] anything tied to the order. And then my sister was outside and she said, she's like, Michelle, you're here, like said hi to me. And then she said, Gad said you turned your back. What does that mean? Turned your back? Like I turned my back on them. But she was three.

[00:13:00]>> Aw. So she had no idea what that meant.

[00:13:02]So it's like Nico saying, what does this mean?

[00:13:07]Cuz she remembered there were good memories. Like were there memories that I was like a little like brat? Yeah.

[00:13:14]You were a kid, too. Yeah. There's also memories of the good times. Did that hurt to to hear a three-year-old?

[00:13:22]>> I mean like >> She was three or four. Yeah. I I it definitely hurt [snorts] on some level, but I also knew that that was going to happen. Yeah. So I wasn't shocked, but I was also like that was quick. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was a thought I had, too. When I left, I was like I knew that there were there were friends that I kind of already mourned the loss of while I was there. I was like, "These guys are not going to be on my [ __ ] side." Yeah. One friend, [clears throat] I was actually crying about her today. One friend, it was the one that when Jason physically attacked me and I called the police, she was she watched it happen, and she's also the one that I went to her um knowing that this would be our last conversation cuz she was like, "I genuinely knew I was going to miss her, but I knew I knew that I could no longer live in her world." And when I once I crossed the line to this side, she could not live in this world, right? So it's like there's >> wouldn't tow the line, either. Right.

[00:14:15]And so, I was crying about her today cuz it's like that moment was the last moment I ever got to see you, and also the even though you watched me on TV, that was the last moment you ever got to see me cuz you'll never know me. You'll see me, and you'll only see the version that you understand of me. You'll never get And I was like crying about it cuz I'm like the things that like we really had something real there of that friendship was so real, As real as it could be in the order, though.

[00:14:43]>> That's true. As real as it could be, as real as they allowed it to be. And what kind of friendship could we have had had we not had the bounds of What is that called? The boundaries of this cult that we were in? Mhm. Yeah, and I think like that was a part of me too with when I heard that my sister say that, I was asking my mom like, "Okay, so you're telling my full siblings this, which is who I care about the most, but then you're telling other people I'm going to come back. How am I supposed to go back to that? Yeah. How am I supposed to be Even if I do everything you guys say, I go back to the order, that still is going to be a different treatment in that four-year-old head.

[00:15:22]They're going to see me different now because of that. How am I supposed to jump through all these hoops that are not very easy to jump through, but then get treated like a less like less than human. Right.

[00:15:36]And >> less than the version of human I was always treated as.

[00:15:39]>> Right. And then it's like why did I jump through all these hoops? For what?

[00:15:42]>> I And I told my mom that. I said, "If you guys are expecting me to come back, why are you guys ruining all the relationships that I would even be able to have?" Yeah. Because there's At that point there's not much to come back to. Cuz I look at my half brother who went back, left for a minute and then went back. Like he was always looked at differently. That's a good point, yeah. I I don't know that we've really covered much of the how your your reputation's never the same if you leave and go back. FLDS, you can't go back.

[00:16:11]Like you're you're gone forever. But in the order there is this like If you're a man, you can pay a fee. If you're a woman, you can bear children.

[00:16:18]So, but you have this like mark of shame that you're walking around with forever.

[00:16:24]And you have to be willing to like face that every single day. Face everyone looking at you differently because you basically wanted to see what life was like outside of this little bubble. It It's so It was so shocking to see how quick the narrative change that day that I got attacked by Jason. And people watched it. There were at least 10 witnesses. Yet the narrative in the order is that I clawed myself in the throat. I I He didn't lay a finger on me that they had evidence. Like But that's the thing, too. It's like how can you believe that? Not only did a lot of people watch it, but also it's not a secret that we all got beat.

[00:17:00]Right.

[00:17:01]>> hands laid on us.

[00:17:02]>> It's like they would never do that, but you watched them do that. They did that to you [laughter] five seconds ago. Why are you defending You're gaslighting yourself, you guys.

[00:17:10]I know. But I think like I was also talking about this with you today about like Okay, so this is the definition to them.

[00:17:20]So like they would say, "Oh, we like when they make statements when people like leave and we say, 'Oh yeah, they taught us to bleed the beast.'" And then they say, "No, we talked about being self-sufficient and self-sustaining." And it's like, yes, they did talk about that, but the definition in the order was "Go ahead on your statement." Was "Don't ask for a credit card because you should be self-sufficient." Was "Don't ask Paul for money because you should be getting money from yourself."

[00:17:46]Like that's what that meant. Like it had different definitions in the order. Some of the terminology was the same, but it was like a completely different meaning.

[00:17:56]Yeah, there was a lot of um you're you're making me think of the how So in the history of the order, how they started marrying minors, it's so it happened so fast, but it was it was shown to the order as like, at least from my understanding, it's shown to the order that isn't it such a great thing that we can um start our families even younger, and like their purpose is to build up the kingdom of God, and now we can start that purpose sooner. But really, it's because little girls were trying to run away.

[00:18:29]And they they could at 18.

[00:18:32]Yeah, but it's also like if you can get three kids in before you're 18, why not?

[00:18:36]Right. And that's what they like would talk about, "You guys you're so lucky because we accept when people want to get married younger and like start having kids younger because they don't want to waste that time on getting all their kids from the other side." The real definition out in the real world is called rape.

[00:18:52]>> Yeah, that's statutory rape and that's grooming and that's pedophilia. And this you know So people would say like, "Well, did you guys not have the internet in the order? Like you guys could have looked up these things and it's like >> know to look up what the word pedophilia means? I don't even know what that word is. No, literally. But it's like all these things like we had definitions for it. Were they right? No. Yeah. then even if we did look up the actual definition, like sometimes they did line up on some level, but it was interpreted of this is like what that actually means.

[00:19:19]>> Yeah, I literally did not understand that how they would glorify, you know, those the stories and the pictures of the old men holding the baby saying he knew that he was going to marry that baby he cuz he was so close to God.

[00:19:32]Um I did not even realize that that was glorifying pedophilia till I was doing a podcast episode with Eskel talking about it and I realized it as we were doing the episode. I was like, they were glorifying pedophilia. This was years after leaving the understanding what they were doing. Well, it's like we understood like it was wrong when we leave and like see a different life and we understand that, but we don't understand like Here's the actual definition for that.

[00:19:59]Like we knew it was like Wrong with >> When when you have an adult go after a kid, like that's wrong. Like the world sees that as wrong. But it's like okay, putting these bigger terms on it that have more weight to them, >> Mhm. then it hits harder.

[00:20:17]But at the end of the day you're talking about the same thing. Yeah.

[00:20:19]>> Whether you say like oh, it's older guy going after a teenager Mhm. or if you say pedophilia, like that's the same thing. It's just you're trying to take the weight away from it. Yeah, I do think that I for years after leaving didn't even realize that I was cuz I couldn't even call it a cult. Did you struggle with calling the order a cult and when you first left? Mhm.

[00:20:43]Cuz on escaping polygamy they'd be like, can you you know how they would say, can you say it like this? And you'd be like, I wouldn't call it a cult though.

[00:20:51]>> [laughter] >> And that's when I realized it was so uncomfortable for me cuz they were like, yeah, so basically it was a cult, right?

[00:20:55]Now now say that and I'm like uh It's like you tell them what it is and then they're like, okay, so the definition that's the definition for cult and you're like, no, but this was my family. Like my family is still there. And it's like Okay, there's no Oh, it's a cult unless if you you care about them. [laughter] So, that makes sense. Oh, it's it's rape unless they tell that you that it's okay. Like, okay, that's how it happens usually.

[00:21:21]>> It's not rape in if you're married and then they tell you, "Oh, marital rape is a term." And you're like, "Oh, I didn't know that marital rape was a thing." I was supposed to follow in that line of having that marital rape happen all the time. So, it's hard to be able to acknowledge like that was very close to being me. Well, first of all, I want to I want to shout out this guy actually who messaged me recently and he said, "Do it along the topic of when are you going to get over it, right?" And that was the most triggering thing that a lot of exes would say to me, "When are you going to get over it?"

[00:21:50]So, he didn't say that. He actually was very respectful. He was like, "I love your content, but I do fear that talking about the same thing and like you constantly go back to the same topic, do you feel like it makes so that you can never get over it?" And then I responded, "I think the idea that talking about something or like how did I word it? Not talking about something equals healing doesn't make any sense to me. And a basically a limit to the amount you can talk about something and then you're healed and you no longer talk about it, it feels like you're silencing yourself and you're you're you're cutting yourself off from healing from that. And I think it's a narrative that for me, I think it's a narrative that the world has placed on um I don't know if not to get like in the patriarchy and everything, but like how uh we notice there's a noticeable thing with a lot of men specifically in the order that "Quit crying, I'll give you something to cry about. Quit being a [ __ ] girl.

[00:22:49]Don't throw like a girl." Even out in the world, "Don't throw like a girl.

[00:22:51]Don't cry like a girl. Emotions are for wussies, right?"

[00:22:55]Um and in that same breath, that that has birthed this idea that talking about your your things that you struggle with um means that you can't let it go and means that you are not healing from it, but it's doing the opposite. For me at least, all of this talking on my podcast and being able to talk to you and talk to Allison and people who've also gone through things and in the comments that are relating makes me feel validated and helps me to move on from it. Well, I think like not even not not to break it all the way down, but it's similar to like a death. Just if you don't ever talk about someone who died, does that mean you move on from the fact that they died? No, because they're still dead.

[00:23:36]>> Right.

[00:23:36]>> Like it still happened. Like whether I talk about it or I don't, I still have memories of that person. I can still say, "Oh, yeah, here were good times and here were times that were hard." But it doesn't mean like a lot of times, honestly, a lot of times like when someone that you care about dies, then there's a stage before you can even talk about it.

[00:23:57]Because you have to get to like quote unquote a healing point so that you can like have a conversation about it without completely breaking down.

[00:24:06]But like saying like, "Oh, you can't move on from it or you can't heal from it." It's like that's not even I don't feel like that's necessarily even like the right way to look at it because it's still like a healing is like a scar.

[00:24:21]Okay, then you heal the the scar is healed. Right. But that doesn't take away the fact like you still may have like a scar on your leg.

[00:24:29]>> there. It's still >> happened. It doesn't mean like just because you have a scar on your leg or that you have something like a cut on your arm that needs to be healed, it doesn't mean you can't go to work.

[00:24:41]>> Mhm. It's just part of life. But also for me, it's like the scar is an open wound at one point. Mhm.

[00:24:48]>> You cannot heal this open wound by like running into the fire with it. And pretending it's not there. Like you have to address it. So like just cuz these videos are done, it doesn't mean like that you're harping on old wounds or any of that. It's like Okay, just because like when you talk to your friends, like you talk about oh, what did you do over the weekend? Oh, what did you eat for lunch?

[00:25:11]Are you telling me what you ate for lunch because you haven't healed from it?

[00:25:14]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's true.

[00:25:15]>> No, because it's just a [ __ ] fact.

[00:25:16]>> Yeah, this is a part of my life. And another piece of it is like this was the only childhood we had. This for me it was 17 years of my life. This was the only childhood I had. And so, it's a very common thing that people talk people talk about the childhood stories.

[00:25:29]Mhm. Um but I have had people be like, how come you bring up your stuff so much? I'm like, you get to talk about your childhood. Just because yours wasn't traumatic, doesn't mean that I don't get to talk about mine. And people have told me like, well, you chose to leave your your childhood and the people who were a large part of your childhood. And it's like that doesn't mean I don't get to have the memories that I had. And they they've also said like, oh, I said, so you talk about like when you were in school, then how come I can't talk about like when I was in school?

[00:25:59]>> Right. And they've said like, well, you have had school outside of the order.

[00:26:03]And I'm like, so that means I magically have to erase all this other stuff?

[00:26:06]>> Right. I honestly think people that are like that, they're like, why don't you just move on? Why don't you How how come you have to talk about it? It's literally like feels like whenever I bring up my stuff, they're they're like, don't talk about it cuz it it makes me feel things and I don't want to feel things.

[00:26:19]>> [laughter] >> And it's like it makes them feel uncomfortable and it's like I'm not here to I know what we were talking about, too. I'm not here to make you comfortable. I'm not here to make you uncomfortable. I'm here to have a conversation. If you don't want to have a conversation with me, don't have a conversation with me. Like we don't have to. But also, don't get mad at me cuz I'm having a conversation when you also were trying to have a conversation with me. Right. And and uh one thing, too, is like I find that a lot of people value honesty, but when I give them it, then afterwards they're like, that's too much. No. [laughter] And that's what I think like it can be a lot of information and it can be really heavy like and I understand that. But also, like if you're going to ask the question, then I'm going to answer it.

[00:26:59]So, I always like I try to do a good job about like if you don't care to know like everyone doesn't need to care about all the things that happened in my life.

[00:27:08]Like I get it. I can I know that that's the reality of life.

[00:27:14]But also, if you want me to be able to empathize with your stories, like But you're not willing to reciprocate that.

[00:27:22]>> going to have to be able to give that back because that's how life works.

[00:27:26]That's how humanity works and that's just part of life. Exactly. And I think that so so going back to that topic of like so I I think that there's some people that don't understand why we keep going back to these rehashing the traumas to process. For us, it's processing, it's healthy, and it's healing, and it may feel weird to you because I personally think usually people that are like that are actually running from their own stuff that they're trying to process and we're actually bringing something up that they don't want to think about in their own life. So, they're like, "Hey, hey, hey, stop that now."

[00:27:57]>> [laughter] >> Well, and I think also there may be people who are out there that think like that we're looking for them to feel sorry for us. And I think >> And one time in a Airbnb in my house, that was the case. [laughter] That one time. Exhibit A. I genuinely find a lot of people resonate. You don't have to be in a cult to be traumatized.

[00:28:17]Yeah.

[00:28:17]>> And a lot of people really find healing in the way that we can dissect our childhood and that we're not afraid to cuz I it's not even that we're like so powerful we're dissecting. We kind of had to to understand what the [ __ ] that was. So, because we had to figure it out, now we're able to kind of like give it to you guys a little bit on a platter and and then there's so many people that resonate with Oh my gosh, my parents did that. But because we came from a cult, then I in a weird way I feel like cuz have you ever felt like people who come from LDS um they don't get to have the same sympathy as someone from a cult. And like we get a lot of help because of that, and people are like that very validating. Yeah, that's a you came from a cult. But someone may have had like an alcoholic parent or came from the LDS or in their own way LDS people might get triggered by that, but came from another place that maybe isn't called a cult, but has those same kind of tendencies, but they're not allowed to be as validated in it. Yeah, and I think like that's a good example of like even between me and you, there's a lot of experience some of our experiences that are very different, but also some that are very similar. And it doesn't mean like oh, you don't deserve to have like empathy because mine is worse or vice versa. It's like, no, sometimes things impact people differently. And the same scenario that I probably could have like been crushed over, you were like, oh yeah, that was just another day for me.

[00:29:46]But it's like everyone processes things differently. And you may process something very similar to how I process it, but it's the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of like how traumatic the event was Mhm. on like a scale.

[00:30:01]But it's like it doesn't have to be like cult level trauma to still be traumatizing.

[00:30:07]>> Right. [clears throat] And it doesn't that doesn't mean that you don't deserve the validation, too. And like even with like a death, it doesn't have to be like this person died and is no longer living for it to be a void in your life. Like for us, like we don't have parents we can just go to and cry on their shoulder. Right.

[00:30:26]>> But there's a void and some people don't have parents living, so they still can't do that. So it's like either way there's a void, it doesn't have to look the same. Right. That's an I'm going to okay, last thing to say on this topic cuz it does trigger me so much when people say that thing like, "Well, can't you I stop talking about it?"

[00:30:41]They don't understand the everyday eat, sleep, and breathe that it affect like the other day I cried about. It was just a It was supposed to be a funny reel of this this Have you guys probably seen this? It was on Instagram and this girl's Maybe it wasn't funny actually, I don't know. This girl's This girl's like bunk bed fell onto her brother and she takes the the She's like trying to get the mattress off of him. She's like, "Are you okay? Are you okay?" And I started bawling because and and I feel like a normal normal I hate that word, but someone that didn't come from the situation we came from would see me crying over there and be like, "What are you crying about?" But I was crying because the way that she just so instantly loved and cared for her brother and like like it just was triggering me that why couldn't I have this healthy love in my home for my I had nine siblings that we could have had a beautiful like I care about you, you care about me healthy love, but that was ripped from us and and acknowledging that and it sucks that I can be scrolling on Instagram minding my business and this random ass thing can just make me break the [ __ ] down because it makes me realize how much I lost out on. And I think that also like goes to show though that the same video can be very triggering for one person, but also very healing for another person. And it's like it could also be both like seeing that seeing like I'm sad that I didn't get to have that and I won't ever get to have a childhood like that. But also it can be like if you end up wanting kids like my kids do have the opportunity to have that. So it doesn't mean like if this is like your video videos talking about the order triggers that person, it's like you don't have to watch it, but also don't write it off because it could be healing for other people. Yeah. Like even if it's not for me right now, it may be for me in a year from now or it may never be for me ever again. It would for other people who might be helpful.

[00:32:39]Yeah, the same topics that would trigger me in the past, I'm actually going back to and it's healing. It's so weird that like you just needed a little time to process and now that thing is actually something you're you're wanting for yourself. And that's the thing. It's like take what is beneficial to you and then leave what's not. Unless you're like hurting someone, like and someone else is hurting someone, like it's okay for people to exist outside of the box that you want to create for them.

[00:33:06]Create your box and like decide who you are. You don't have to put this box on other people. Did you go through that at all with um raising your kids? I think it's big thing is like when you're raising your kids because there's times where like my kids will push back on something and my initial thought is like hey, well, I'm the mom. Yeah, like that's the rule cuz I'm the mom. And then it's like no, let's have a conversation about that. But it's also like age-appropriate. If they're like two, Yeah, you're not going to explain geometry to a two-year-old.

[00:33:36]Let's unpack that. It's like can you just get it out of my face? Is what the kid's saying and you're like no, let's sit there and unpack it. But it's like it is a healing process but also heartbreaking process seeing things that your kids do that you got like the [ __ ] beat out of you for. Yep. But then you're like like at different stages of some of my memories, I like look at Harper and like Nico and I think this was how old I was when I realized I couldn't count on my mom.

[00:34:05]This was the stage when I realized I was going to be abused if I stepped out of line. But also you do know like I can be better for my kids, but you also have to acknowledge I will never have that from like from the me for my kids like my mom. Yeah. It's it's like a bittersweet.

[00:34:25]Like I'm so happy that my kids get to have this um and and that you broke the cycle cuz very much you could have been the polygamist in the order that's that like my my brother was telling me the other day that cuz I I my brain sometimes forgets that the order not that the order was so bad but like my brain wants to believe that they're changing. Just like for me to be able to sleep at night my brain will be like maybe my mom's changed or maybe they're not beating them so bad blah blah blah. But I my brother told me the story about and he was like crying saying I just I can't get over this the time that my mom so apparently one of the little boys in the third wife family kept having a problem with pooping his pants messing his pants.

[00:35:06]He was messing his pants.

[00:35:08]Um but he was like two and the last time that it happened my mom goes go put him in an ice bath.

[00:35:16]Which can you get hypothermia from that putting a little two-year-old in an ice bath?

[00:35:21]Well, I don't think it's healthy. Yeah.

[00:35:23]That it's not It's like it's child abuse definitely child abuse. But he's crying about how he was forced to abuse the kid. Mhm. Well, that was something I talked to you guys about and like even talked on Shalice's channel about like it took a long time for me to be able to talk about the abuse I participated in because it's like do I let that person tell their story?

[00:35:46]But if I don't talk about it then it's me saying like oh I was this good person I didn't ever do that. It's like no I was forced to be a part of that. But like all the comments like on those videos of when I talked about that they said like that's part of your abuse too though is like you can acknowledge that part of your abuse where you were forced to abuse other people.

[00:36:04]>> Yeah.

[00:36:05]That's a really hard part for me to admit to too even even 13 years out of the order there recently I have been so scared to cuz I have a I was just talking to Allison about my repressed memories and I'm so scared that some of those repressed memories are me just being a piece of [ __ ] But then I'm like I was a kid. I was a child and to think that I was this perfect child in this [ __ ] up universe that I was in that was the order would be a miracle.

[00:36:36]Well, there's [laughter] no way. I think also like in general people like nobody's perfect. Everyone struggles. Like that's not justifying the behavior, but it's also like is that something you chose? And I think it goes back to that what is me and what is the order's creation within me. Like what did the order create and force me to be?

[00:36:56]Did I choose that? Did I choose to hurt my siblings? At the end of the day like there were times that I hurt my siblings and like I can't say, "Oh, that was like my mom's fault."

[00:37:06]Did she play a role? Did she like was it her job to stop me from being hurtful to those around me? Like yeah, your parent's usually the person who helped shape you into the person you are. But also like you don't have to hate yourself for the things that you didn't You didn't know. Yeah. But also there's a lot of times that's like it's not that I just chose to do this and I didn't know better. It's that I was told go do this. Like what happens if this person doesn't listen or does doesn't do what they're told? This is what happens next. Like this is just cause and effect. You put water in a cup, the cup's going to get wet. Yeah.

[00:37:44]Like that's just how it was.

[00:37:46]>> Right. And there's no I tell the story so many times about how I for I think I told you the I force-fed a kid after leaving and then he threw up and I cried cuz I realized that I was abusing the kid, but I genuinely in that moment there was no like there was no literally like no brain path was telling me that what I was doing was wrong. Like nothing was tell It was that was just how I was raised.

[00:38:13]So then when the kid throws up, I'm like, "What the [ __ ] did I just do?" And I'm like balling. So it's like unfortunately if you're not willing to admit that you may have been [ __ ] up in the order cuz everyone was, you're going to still be [ __ ] up out here. Yeah, and I think like that's in general like everyone should always be reflecting on who they are and what they're doing and the type of person they are like to the type of friend they are, the type of partner they are, the type of like sister they are, whatever. And it can be and I think also like with that though, like unless you reflect, it's you it's hard to be able to change if for something that you don't reflect on and don't like Why would you change if you don't think that you need to change? Yeah, but I also think like there's a lot of comments from different people who say like well, these girls who like immediately left the order, they just went right into having kids and they obviously abuse their kids right after. Who said that? People have said like made comments about that of like why would you not heal first? I think it's not uh the right thing to say of you have to be this perfect person in order to have kids.

[00:39:25]But it's also wrong to assume that we did the exact same thing our parents did.

[00:39:30]>> Right. Like we we're all on our different journeys of healing now, then, like just like people in the normal world who didn't weren't raised in the order.

[00:39:41]They everyone's on their different paths. But also like not that everyone's going to [ __ ] up in parenting so it's okay like to do things how we were taught, but you can't say that someone's doing exactly what they were taught. And sometimes they are, but sometimes they're not. So it's like always having that look looking back at like what you're doing, how you're doing things, how it affects those around you.

[00:40:10]Like I think that's the biggest thing rather than like you need to wait till five out five years out of the order before you start having kids. Well, and like that no one's even going to listen to that advice anyways because we were so like our whole purpose in life like eat, sleep, and breathe was to be mothers.

[00:40:28]Mhm. So, of course we're going to come out here still like my purpose, my purpose, my purpose. Like for me that was my marriage, right? And then next was kids. And then I do think God that I didn't have them because I I mean obviously, right? The [laughter] situation would have been really bad.

[00:40:43]But you always look back and be like oh, if I would have gotten waited to buy this car, I would have seen like this other car is a better option, more realistic option. It's like you can always look back and say I know more now. Yeah, it's true. But also that doesn't mean that you did the wrong thing in the moment.

[00:41:02]>> Yeah.

[00:41:03]Yeah, and I I try not to cuz I definitely do shame myself for um for not knowing better, for why did I get married at 18? Especially because um it's all the first giving polygamy. And I'm like having to be forced to relive the I I married the love of my life.

[00:41:20]>> [laughter] >> But it's also like I was 18. But I think also like it goes back to if you're not hurting anybody then like it's okay to do things and learn.

[00:41:33]Just like make sure you're not hurting anybody at the end of the day. Yeah.

[00:41:36]But again like I'm not going to say like oh yeah, in a year I'm going to know everything there is to ever know.

[00:41:42]>> Right. I'm going to be perfect. So, I'm going to be at that point is when I'm going to like do all XYZ. Yeah. It's like that's not realistic. So, am I supposed to like put my life on hold until I'm this healed version?

[00:41:55]No, because there's always going to be another thing that hurts. There's going to be another traumatic event. And you deserve to live your life. You deserve to in these in like life is so short.

[00:42:06]Just because you're not healed enough doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it and try to enjoy it. That that leads me to this question of the struggle to have fun. I wrote this one down because I remember we we've actually talked about this a lot where you have said that it's hard for you to How would you word this? It's hard to enjoy things that that the average person you can see them out enjoying or like it's hard to just let loose and How How did you word it? I think it's both of those things. Like it's hard It was hard for me to be able to like just kind of sit with doing nothing.

[00:42:42]>> [clears throat] >> And like not being productive.

[00:42:45]Like not working or not like cleaning, doing stuff like that. But also it was like not seeing things the same way as like I call them normal people. I know. I'm trying not to use that word, but it's the only word that comes to mind. Just how like other people like see things the same way other people do.

[00:43:04]Because like for an example is like I'm not going to see someone whose favorite color is yellow. I'm not going to see yellow the same as them. Because I'm just not. But also there's these other like barriers in place. Like for example, how the order raises to think and like where we see our worth. You don't see your worth in the good person I am.

[00:43:28]It's how many kids do I have? How much money can I give to my husband? All of that.

[00:43:34]>> You have to prove that you have value.

[00:43:37]Where is which is so like skewed cuz we were born with value. But they they tricked us into thinking we didn't have value.

[00:43:43]>> Yeah. And that's like that's not something that's specific towards the order. Like that's in the order, but it's also like other places. They do struggle to see the value in themselves.

[00:43:52]Like people struggle with their sense of self. But also like there was a long time that I struggled to just like I guess enjoy things. Yeah.

[00:44:06]it was everything had to be logical cuz I feel like I am a very logical person.

[00:44:11]And it's hard to be like okay, so how is coloring a paper beneficial in the end? Really? So you can >> was like the level that it was at was like what am I going to do with it?

[00:44:26]>> What's the purpose of coloring this coloring book or this puzzle?

[00:44:29]>> would let my kids do it, but it was like I couldn't see the reason I would sit down and do it. Because I have a whole to-do list to do and [clears throat] I have like I'm not doing it to hang it up on the wall. Yeah, so it didn't satisfy that.

[00:44:43]>> like it has to be to this quality. Like it has to be all these like this all whole logical process that's like it doesn't need to be all that. And it feels very I'm resonating so much with this because I did a Have you ever done your neurofeedback?

[00:44:58]>> Transactional kind of.

[00:45:00]>> Yeah. Yeah, our whole childhood was that way. And and um You didn't get love unless you did like met these requirements. Do you find that relationships are like that?

[00:45:11]Um per- personally, I think that like for a at a point in time I did. And I like I think when people would say like when are you going to be over your trauma, that would also trigger part of that because it would like make me relate to in a relationship if I talked about my trauma, I became a charity case. Like I wasn't a partner and an equal in that relationship. I was the unfortunate one that they basically had to deal with. Yeah, they felt like the Oh, now I'm like >> Like I was just like a burden to everybody.

[00:45:46]And like that's like not how it is now, but it would definitely was like that.

[00:45:51]So it's just like again, all these conditions on how why you deserve to be loved. Yeah.

[00:45:58]Yep, I >> And why it you deserve to color this paper and why you deserve to sit down and watch a TV. What have you accomplished to be able to reach that point? Cuz it was always like a give and take, a reward system. Yeah. I I was so I I do that still a little bit like I need to be productive, I need to be productive, but in relationships, time and time again, I slipped into this weird place of like let me show you that I am worthy of love. Yeah.

[00:46:26]>> Look how great I am. Yeah. Please love me. And I think also like being like let me pour into you and pour all this into you before I'm willing to even be comfortable with you pouring in back into me.

[00:46:39]>> Yeah. And I think like I had to go through a period of time where it was just like sitting alone with myself, being like, "Okay, there's no distractions around.

[00:46:50]Like I have to sit with my feelings. There's not someone who I can kind of pour into and feed into in order to let myself know that I deserved to be poured back into.

[00:47:02]>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, what do you think it was? Cuz I think I resonate a little bit of that in that way of like I in the beginning felt uncomfortable with them like truly trying to love me and know me. Mhm. Is it that that stems from a fear that if they did, then they wouldn't truly like you? Well, I think like it was like we were never accepted as we were. We always had to like change who we were. Like my mom expected a certain level of from me, my dad expected a whole 'nother level from me.

[00:47:35]And then my siblings were like, "Well, we know we can't go to Mom, so like let's try to give our each other comfort." So then it's like everything was just transactional. And like if I wanted some like if I wanted a pair of jeans for my birthday, like I had to earn to be able to even go use my own money to buy myself a pair of jeans for my birthday.

[00:47:55]So it's like all these things which again, it came back to like logic for me because even as a kid like it was just like Kate, where's the logic in it?

[00:48:05]Cuz we couldn't show emotion. Yeah. You couldn't be too happy because then there was something that other people could take away from you.

[00:48:13]Yeah, that's >> how I would see it even as a kid. I was like, why would I tell you what my favorites are? Because then it will give you a road map of what to take away when you want to punish me. Yeah, so so in a way you were cutting yourself off from happiness.

[00:48:27]>> Even having those attachments and having fun. Like that's kind of like where that whole thing started was like why would I give you the tools to hurt me when you're already hurting me?

[00:48:37]>> Yeah, so you it's like you made yourself smaller and and stripped these emotions away from yourself.

[00:48:44]Uh But again, it went back to logic.

[00:48:46]Like Yeah.

[00:48:47]it makes more sense to not give you that power than to give it to you and expect you not to hurt me with it.

[00:48:54]>> Right. It's that's a risk that you just couldn't take in the order. So, now how long >> So, then it like came out with me. The same thing of like I have to be meeting all these requirements for this other person even if I'm not that's not who I am.

[00:49:10]Do you >> I can make sure I deserve their love.

[00:49:13]>> Wait, how long have you been out?

[00:49:14]I think 9 years. 9 years? Do Next year will be 10 years.

[00:49:19]Wow, are you going to do anything special?

[00:49:21]I am special.

[00:49:22]>> [laughter] >> Every day is special, [ __ ]