"쎄함은 과학입니다" FBI 요원이 직감을 믿는 이유ㅣ글로벌초대석 EP.1

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]There are researchers who say look underpinning of all psychopathy is narcissism. There's no pill that they can take. There's no medicine. There's nothing that you can do. I think it's one of the most overused terms the most harmful pathology that exists out there.

[00:00:18]So, how do you realize when you are with a narcissist? And what do you do after you realize that?

[00:00:25]>> The best thing that you can do is Hello, Mr. Navaro. Welcome to our show.

[00:00:52]>> It's good to finally be on your show.

[00:00:56]>> 25 years. I was a special agent with the FBI. My job was to catch spies. So, most of my work was in the area of counter inelligence and behavioral assessment.

[00:01:08]When I retired 2003, I started writing books. I've now written 15 books. That's why FBI.

[00:01:34]No, it's not like the movies. It's a lot of paperwork and sometimes they can be really boring. The FBI has many roles.

[00:01:42]We're a federal agency, so we have jurisdiction all over the United States, but in fact, we have jurisdiction all over the world as long as the host government allows us to work with them.

[00:01:54]So, a lot of times you'll hear that an FBI team is uh working on an investigation in Colombia or in Abu Dhabi. It's because we're invited to be there. But the FBI is principally an investigative agency. Our job is to collect evidence to conduct investigations and most of those are in the criminal area. So bank robberies, kidnappings. The side of the house where I worked was counterintelligence, which is to identify spies and threats to the United States so that then we can take uh action. So, we have both of those roles, criminal investigations and counter intelligence investigations. I enjoyed my career. I had a nice time. I was able to help a lot of victims and uh >> Right. Right.

[00:02:51]>> We all go through Quanico. Quanico is a city in Virginia where the FBI has its academy and uh four months of very very intense training. Physically it's not that difficult but intellectually it it is because everything is compressed into four months of training. We all go through that right.

[00:03:26]Absolutely. I think you summarized it beautifully. When uh we left Cuba, I didn't speak English. We only had 24 hours to uh to get here. Uh because we had just gone through the communist revolution. We were trying to escape.

[00:03:41]And I landed here in Miami, Florida. And I was lost. But the only thing that I could hang on to was the body language.

[00:03:50]The body language I felt very comfortable with because you can tell when somebody likes you, somebody's welcoming you. And so I decided that would be the language that I would hang on to until I learned how to speak English. But it also made me better observer. You arrive in the United States and all of a sudden you notice that people stand further apart. Cubans like to touch a lot while they talk.

[00:04:18]Americans don't do that too much. And so you realize that there are cultural differences and behavioral differences.

[00:04:25]And so I started to pick up on those things. But I was just naturally curious as a child because I remember I think I was 9 years old and I was looking at the birds that landed on the electric power line and I wondered why they all lined up perfectly aligned. one from the other. And uh I went to my teacher and I said, "Well, do you know why?" And she said, "Well, I don't." And so I began to study things on my own as to why is it that we the first three people in a line to get on a bus, they're the ones that set the distance. And so I started looking at things like that. I guess I was just a strange kid, but a very curious kid. Yeah.

[00:05:13]I think the most rewarding case that I had was one that I wrote about in my book 3 Minutes to Doomsday. And it was about an American soldier who decided to sell secrets to the Russians. And over a period of about a year, I interviewed him 42 times. And it was a sort of it was like theater. It was uh we each had our roles. He wasn't going to tell me anything and I was going to try and get information from him. But we liked being around each other. So we would get together and then it was about getting very small details that eventually led to solving the case and eventually arresting eight spies. I think for me that was the most gratifying. But it took 10 years to do the whole investigation.

[00:06:01]>> 10 years. Wow. We had suspects in Germany. We had suspects in Sweden, in Italy. We had suspects in Austria. We had suspects in the United States. And so it it takes a long time to solve these cases. First of all, all the evidence is overseas. So most of the evidence they sold to the Russians. So the Russians aren't going to give it to you. So now you have to work at finding that information, locating it, what did it look like, and then piecing it together. So, it's really about very careful, very structured, a lot like you do where you research how am I going to interview this individual and then how do I proceed, what words do I use, where are we going to sit, all of that. It's an intellectual game.

[00:06:51]>> The very big difference is that in your case, that person is structurally kind of, you know, they are programmed to lie to you, to hide completely master to your intention. So, I mean, it's a little different because you really have to crack them. How do you do that?

[00:07:07]>> That's a good point. The way you do it is by not going at it directly. So, for instance, this uh this individual, his name was Rod. Rod wasn't going to tell us much of anything, but what he was willing to tell us were things like that he on the weekends would leave the military base and he would go dancing or he would go partying or he would do drugs or in Germany prostitution was legal. He would tell us about all these things he would do and of course I would sit there and pretend like I'm really interested which I was but not for the reasons he thought. and he doesn't realize that he's telling me that he's spending $30 for the drugs, $40 for the booze. And so we add all this up and immediately we can see, well, the army salary in 1985 in Germany was $139.

[00:08:06]You're living way beyond your means, so we know you're getting that money from somewhere. He doesn't realize he just gave me all this valuable information.

[00:08:17]He thinks he's showing off when in fact he just revealed to me that he's living way beyond his means. And so we begin with things like that. You have to listen and you have to prepare for how to ask the question. So I'll give you an example. If he says something, you might say, "Oh, there's no way. No way it was like that." And then he would say, "Yeah, it was like that. I mean, we were partying every night." And I said, "That's not possible. You guys had responsibilities the next day." And then he'd say, "Oh, no, no, no, no. We just get somebody to cover for us and then we could disappear." So much information.

[00:09:01]But also, there's the human factor. when he was sad or he was lonely or he was having a hard time knowing when to be more empathetic and be kind and uh but you're also listening to what he's saying but I'm also collecting the body language. So I'll give you an example.

[00:09:18]Most people when they don't like something that's being asked of them, they'll begin to compress their lips or they'll do a uh lip purse where the lips come forward.

[00:09:31]>> I don't I don't think so. Right. So, I would watch him and carefully see how he would react to each question. And if I sensed that he wasn't liking those questions, then I'd back out and we'd go on to something else and then try it another time or in another way. It's art and science. And then how do they react to different questions? Or sometimes they don't react at all. They just they kind of look at you flash frozen. But usually people have reactions to questions and what we call positive or negative reactions. When they're positive, there's a lot of what we call gravitydefying behavior. So we arch the eyebrows, we elevate, right? We go, "Oh yeah, it was great." But when it's negative, there tends to be more eye compression, lip compression. Those are easy to pick up on.

[00:10:23]>> Okay, let's go on to the next question.

[00:10:38]Yeah. And it's been like that really forever. But statistically, especially if you're a woman, you're more likely to be harmed by someone that loves you, boyfriend, husband, and so forth, sadly, than uh anybody else. Stranger on stranger violence is actually very very small and I think it's just natural tendency of when people live together work together. I wrote a book years ago called dangerous personalities and I looked at the four personality types that are most likely to hurt you. And what's interesting is the narcissistic personality is the one that's going to cause you the most harm, but it's the most psychological and emotional harm, not physical harm. A predator, sociopath, or a psychopath might hurt you physically, but inevitably it's the narcissistic personality that does the most emotional harm and for the longest period of time. Let's start with definitions. Let's start with psychopath. According to Robert Hair, the psychopath is an individual who is severely flawed of character, who has no conscience, who doesn't think about or worry about who they hurt or how they hurt those people, and they tend to be very impulsive, and they tend to do very well uh committing crimes. So, that's your pretty much your psychopath. And of course, in the movies, you always have this strange person that looks at you weird. And most of the psychopaths I've met were actually kind of interesting.

[00:12:20]They were funny.

[00:12:21]>> They were funny.

[00:12:22]>> Yeah. Because they don't respect a lot of things. So, they make fun of of life and situations, but they have that dark side where they don't have a conscience and they're not bothered by the things that they do. And that's frightening.

[00:12:38]Fortunately, psychopathy is only 1% of the population. So only about 1% of the population is a true psychopath. Now, they're 1% of the population, but they account for about 40% of the people in prison. Sociopaths are one way to look at them is these are people that grow up around criminals, around other people who have no respect for the rights or the property of other people. And so they tend to commit crimes and and things like that. That's the big difference. The sociopath. Yeah. It's like uh people that live in a what we call a bad neighborhood or something like that. And they're just surrounded by other people that commit crimes. It isn't healthy. It isn't good, but there's still hope for them. For the psychopath, there's actually very little hope. There's not like a pill you can give somebody to fix them when they're a psychopath. The traits that I look for in psychopathy. Number one, if someone is trying to dominate your space, they try to isolate you from your friends.

[00:13:44]You go to a bar, they try to isolate you from your friends. They try to dominate your thinking so that if you're worried about, "Hey, it's getting late." They incessantly tell you, "Oh, don't worry about it. You're safe. You're safe.

[00:13:58]You're safe." When in fact, you're not safe. The other thing that they do is they're exploitive. So they either want your money or they want your body or any number of things. So usually can pick them up observationally because their focus is very different. When I'm with friends, I want them to relax. So I give them as much space as possible. I don't try to dominate them. The psychopath tries to dominate and control. And so there's the the danger.

[00:14:43]>> That's a very good observation. There are researchers who say, "Look, underpinning of all psychopathy is narcissism." Some people argue with that. I actually have seen it both ways.

[00:14:56]The thing with the narcissist is that first and foremost is they overvalue themselves and then devalue others. That stands out clearly that you're never an equal. With psychopaths, you don't see that sometimes. With narcissists, you definitely see it. I'm special and you're not.

[00:15:20]>> It's something so simple as as one lady told me. She said, "My husband doesn't allow me to drink CocaCola, but he does.

[00:15:29]I can only drink water." And so you have this disparity. He's going to be treated special and she's not. The devaluation through words like saying something terrible, like saying that outfit doesn't look very good on you, even though it does or saying something like, "Oh, you're that was really a stupid answer." you realize nobody talks to somebody like that. That's really very disrespectful. And you're creating this constant stream of behaviors where I'm special, I'm the best, and you're not.

[00:16:06]And of course, that those are the worst kinds of relationships. I get about maybe,00 1200 letters a year from uh people who have gone through narcissistic abuse.

[00:16:19]the themes are always the same. The depreciation, the restraint, they keep you from having friends and they don't value your friends. And so it's um yeah, >> but the thing with narcissists, they express themselves so that their intentions seem good. Like, oh, you can't have Coke because it's bad for you. Oh, that outfit is not flattering.

[00:16:42]I'm saying this for your own good.

[00:16:44]Something like that, right?

[00:16:45]>> Oh, exactly. One victim told me as soon as she got married, her husband said, "Listen, why burden yourself? We'll put all the money in one bank account. I'll run it out of my bank account. You don't have to worry." And so, in theory, it sounds like, "Oh, well, that's pretty nice. I don't have to work." But in fact, he took all of her money. And so, with the narcissist, you learn that they are destroying your life a little bit at a time. They're constantly pecking at it and so you don't feel the same. You're not as happy. You're losing sleep and you're always less than appreciated.

[00:17:25]>> I think it's one of the most overused terms, but I also think it is the most harmful pathology that exists out there.

[00:17:34]I I really do.

[00:17:35]>> So, how do you realize when you are with a narcissist and what do you do after you realize that? Well, that's that's a good question. Well, the first thing is you have to have that private conversation and say, "Look, this guy or this woman wasn't what she purported to be. I'm not happy. He's not going to change and I'm miserable all the time, and I deserve to not be treated like this."

[00:18:03]>> So, the best thing that you can do is is really distance yourself from that person. People say, well, you know, you could put up barriers and say, you know, I'm not going to tolerate this or or that. The narcissist doesn't care about that. In my research, and after 30 years of of looking at this, the only thing that really works is to get away from these individuals.

[00:18:37]Well, let me give you two examples. The problem with narcissistic abuse is that you will eventually get sick. They will drive you into physically and mentally get sick. So, you'll have uh you won't be able to sleep well. You'll suffer from depression, any number of other things that that will happen. There'll be even physical things. I know one gentleman who came down with pancreatic problems because of his his boss was so toxic. Well, what about a parent? I can tell you there's a a woman in Miami and she filed for divorce papers from her parents. That's how narcissistic they were. And the judge granted her a divorce from her parents because when they brought in the evidence, the judge just couldn't believe how bad these parents were. They were doing terrible things that didn't rise to the level where, you know, it was criminal, but the verbal abuse, everything else. And so she filed for a divorce from her parents at the age of 16 and she was granted a a divorce. Look, one of the things I always tell people is this, and it's really a very simple formula. How long is this tolerable? How long are you willing to tolerate this? If you can tolerate it for two more years, go for it. But just be aware that you're going to get sick. Psychological problems, physical problems, and so forth. And the second question I always ask is, is this in reality sustainable? And invariably, they'll tell you, no, it's not sustainable. I am truly unhappy. I got to get my children out of here and and look and I understand all the circumstances. You know, this is a really good job. I can't afford to lose it or it's my parents or I understand all of that, but I also understand from listening to the victims that continued exposure to the narcissist will have lifong consequences.

[00:20:36]Literally yesterday, a woman wrote me and said, "I can't wait for my mother to die." That's how miserable she has made my life. Think about that for a minute.

[00:20:46]And then you realize the level of toxicity, the inhumane treatment. It's very, very sad.

[00:21:07]I see the wisdom in what you're saying.

[00:21:10]And I've known women in particular who say, "Uh, well, I'll meet you at the food court at the mall so I can talk to you about this." Because they know the guy's not going to blow up there. But unfortunately, they they may blow up later. Things that can help you anytime to diffuse is distance, right? So, standing further away from the person, don't make as much eye on eye contact.

[00:21:36]and then angling your body so that if I'm in front of you like this, I'm more of a threat than if I'm at an angle like this and tone of voice. But when I look at the transcripts of people who have had these conversations and you realize this isn't going anywhere, at a minimum, he's going to say, "Yeah, I'll work on that. I promise not to hit you anymore."

[00:21:59]And then they they turn around and behave that way. The reason most people don't understand the narcissistic personality is because we're not taught in school what a personality that flawed of character really is. And if we were taught that, you'd realize, oh, you know, there are people who deserve uh respect and everything else, but they don't deserve anything more than that because they do not value us and their view of the world is very primitive. And I what I mean by primitive, it's almost like a 2-year-old child. It's everything is for me and nothing for you. And that's very sad. But that is what a narcissistic personality is. It's someone that's severely flawed of character. There's no pill that they can take. There's no medicine. There's nothing that you can do. The personality is fixed and rigid by the time they're 18 years old. And it follows them throughout life. Don't trying to change them or expect them to change. Right.

[00:23:04]>> Exactly. You'll be frustrated. You will be very frustrated. I have worked with people like that and I have tried to make things better, but after a while you realize, okay, this this is what I'm dealing with. And um you just try to get away from them.

[00:23:23]Both the narcissist and antisocial psychopath, they can see exploitable weaknesses very quickly. Well, for instance, in street crime, the psychopath will target someone who is walking but isn't looking around, is maybe looking at their phone or their hands are at their side and they're not swinging their arms, so they're not very physical. As early as 1968, we started interviewing these uh social predators.

[00:23:54]And we said, "Well, how do you pick your victims?" And they said, "Well, just they walk like they're not paying attention or they have something in their mind or they're very weak in their arm swing." And he says, "Those are the easy ones to uh to go after." And of course, now with cell phones, the first thing they look at is, you know, did you come out of the store looking at your cell phone? because now they know that you're distracted and so they can walk up right behind you and push you into your car and uh and they can easily do that. But the narcissistic personality actually goes after people that are very kind or very sweet, very gentile because for them, if you're really smart, if you're really sharp, they don't want to have all that competition. They want somebody that's just sweet and kind that they can push around. That unfortunately is the part of the equation.

[00:24:54]>> Gaslighting is basically, oh, it didn't happen like that. Or sometimes I'll forget, oh, this happened. And so I'll apologize and say, oh, I'm sorry. I I thought that's how it happened. What stands out is the person that does it so fast that you almost have no time to respond. They're just so quick to jump on you and say, you know, it didn't happen that way. And what I found over time is people like that, it is a pathology. It's an illness. They're trying to dominate you by making you question your own sanity or what you believe happened and and what reality was, but they do it so quickly. And it's because they do it so quickly that you can say, "Oh, they've done this before."

[00:25:40]And because they've done it before, that's what's frightening. You know, you'll you'll get some defensiveness and you you'll get all all sorts of things.

[00:25:50]For me, I think the scarier one would be the person who goes out of their way to have a an even calmer voice to say, "Oh, but that's not what happened." Because now it's becoming theatrical. Speed of action, that's alerting. But then when it becomes theatrical, then you you can tell yourself, okay, this is a person that rehearses these things and knows what works. And this isn't the first time they're doing it.

[00:26:20]>> Yeah. FBI.

[00:26:29]>> You know, when it comes to safety, it's always have situational awareness.

[00:26:34]Always be looking around. Who's around you and where are you and anytime you're walking towards a car, put the phone away, make sure you're looking around.

[00:26:45]The other thing is listen to your gut, your feelings, and if you don't feel safe getting in an elevator or going into a hallway, don't do it. Because we know from the research now, most people don't realize that your heart and your stomach and other parts of your intestines have neurons. Neurons just like in your brain. And these neurons are communicating back and forth through the veagal system. And so when you have a feeling that something isn't right, this guy at the door doesn't seem right, listen to your gut because we process information so much quicker. If you're a woman, you're in a hotel, you're going to get in an elevator, you press the button for the elevator, but step back away so that you have time to evaluate whether or not you should get into that elevator. because I have gotten on elevators in the basement floor where the parking is. It was frightening. Too many young people and too much alcohol and that's not a good combination. So, so there's little things like that. And always make eye contact with anybody that you think is suspicious because interestingly enough, they're less likely to do anything to you if you make direct eye contact. It's almost like I see you type of thing.

[00:28:09]>> I mean, you just talked about, you know, um listening to your gut is actually a scientifically backed sentence, right?

[00:28:17]There's a an expression in Korean that actually says that.

[00:28:22]It literally means that listening to your gut is science.

[00:28:27]>> Korean culture has been around for many, many, many thousands of years. And one thing I've learned is to listen to ancient cultures. And um we're only now beginning to understand the relationship between the neurons that are in our what's called our entic nervous system.

[00:28:47]That means the nervous system within us that the heart has neurons, the stomach, the the the lungs and and so forth. And it is absolutely foolish not to listen to that. And if and if you have that feeling that says no, Well, there's really four that are the most problematic in society and they they cause the most harm. For me, it's the emotionally unstable. Doesn't know how to control themselves. They become very violent or very vocal or they scream a lot. They don't know how to modulate how they speak to others. I find that uh very disturbing. The the other personality that I struggle with is people that are very rigid in their thinking and no matter what evidence you show them, they refuse to consider anything and uh they question everything and that annoys me because I'm very much sciencebased, but I read books in all sorts of fields. Now, sometimes I don't agree with everything, but I'll read it.

[00:29:58]But there are people that are just so hard-headed that uh they just don't want to learn and uh refuse to uh to see what's there.

[00:30:06]>> Right. Right. Okay. Great. If you want to learn more about the dangerous personalities, we can look to your book, which is a bestseller here in Korea, too. So, all right.

[00:30:23]Fore speech.