FBR collections | Petroleum Levy | Ho Kya Rha Hai With Irshad Arif & Faisal Abbasi | Dr Hafeez Pasha

[00:00:13][Music] I am Faisal [Music] Abbasi Group Editor 92 News Irshad Ahmed R all together.

[00:00:20]Thank you Irshad Sahib, your national unity survey has been presented. Wazir Treasury Mohammad Aurangzeb presented the survey.

[00:00:26]According to the survey, the economic growth in Pakistan i.e. Sharia Nood has been 3.7%, the limit of which was fixed at 4%. Wazir Khazana said that the floods that occurred last year and the subsequent Iran-US war issues led to a situation of uncertainty.

[00:00:41]Otherwise the GDP would have increased by 4%. Overall, Pakistan's fiscal deficit has exceeded $452. The per capita income in Pakistan has increased from $751 to $101 annually and similarly there has been growth in most of the sectors of Pakistan.

[00:01:01]But in this economic year of Pakistan, Pakistan has not been able to achieve its goals in many of its major sectors.

[00:01:14]Which IDAF were fixed in the budget last year.

[00:01:17]Now tomorrow the budget for the year 2026-27 will be presented. What relief is there in it for the people? Are you Marat? What new taxes are being imposed? We will have some detailed discussion on this in today's program.

[00:01:29]Dr. Hafiz Pasha Sahib is also joining us. He is the former Prime Minister of Pakistan.

[00:01:33]Maynaaz mayt daan hain. Doctor sir, thank you very much for your time. Irshad Sahab, overall you have also seen this speech. The press conference that was. Ah, what is your input that is justified that if there was no uncertainty in the global situation, then Pakistan would have achieved its target.

[00:01:50][sound of clearing throat] You think this is okay? Well, we know this from Hafiz Pah.

[00:01:54]He can give a better idea.

[00:01:56]But whenever any targets are fixed, then climatic conditions, challenges faced by the overall economy of the world, war, bad weather, natural calamities, all these things are kept in mind and then a limit is fixed with caution and it is done with the thought that it is possible to achieve it.

[00:02:21]So what Janab Wazar Khazana is saying does not appeal to the common man but in the field of finance because Hafiz Pasha Sahib understands better whether we could not achieve these [sound of clearing throat] Aadaf because last year there was a flood and this year the war started or some of these Aadafs were impossible and were not achievable or there is some interference of the functioning of the government's administrative institutions or our over system [sound of clearing throat] of hard work is not supporting it, so I think brother you should tell us whether these Aadafs which were not achieved were really due to natural calamity, the reason for this was war or it was not achievable at all, yes Bismillah Rahmanir Rahim see the first question is that the boundaries of the Share Namook have been given. Have they been estimated appropriately? I regret to say that we have spent our lives looking at numbers, so when we see even a small glimpse of something wrong, we immediately realize it. First of all, it is a matter of regret that the growth rate of positive 6% which has been declared for our most important crops or which we call the backbone of our economy will not happen and the most regrettable reason for this is the huge decrease in the cotton crop.

[00:04:18]You will be surprised to know that there was a time when the cotton crop used to be 14 million bales.

[00:04:26]Correct. This year, the estimate that has come for the growth rate has been taken as 7 million bales but actually the output is only 5 million bales and because of this, the share rates of your crop sector will be reduced. On the other hand, there are some other sectors in which we believe that the share rates have been increased, in that your small scale manufacturing sector has been shown to have an astonishing 84% share rate, whereas their focus is mostly on exports, sports goods, surgical instruments, leather goods, pharmaceuticals etc. There is no increase in exports, so how has the growth rate been 84%, this is a bit impossible. I will keep saying this but I just want to say that overall my own estimate is that the share rate for this year will hardly be 3%, 37% has been shown to be a bit inflated.

[00:05:44]Correct. That means, whatever has happened in your opinion, only three have happened. 37 This is being shown. If I may ask one question, we know that the important factor in our exports is cotton. It is about our textile. So it came down from 14 million bells to seven or five. So we never made any planning to increase our backbone, the decree is being passed and none of our efforts, any decisions, any policies are visible. This is a very important question. If you permit me to answer this, please do so.

[00:06:28]I want to say that we have said a lot on this.

[00:06:32]Cotton is our backbone.

[00:06:36]What happened? What has happened is that when you look at the competition among Kharif crops.

[00:06:44]Doctor Sahib, this Doctor Sahib, one question has just come to my mind. Now for the next year also, the limit of Sharia Numut has been kept at 4%.

[00:06:52]So right now you are saying that it has been up to 3 fees. So is this practical? Is 4% a realistic target? Look, in these circumstances, when the war in the Middle East is continuing and in the last one or two days, it has again gained intensity, then God forbid, if the Strait of Hormuz also remains closed and the oil prices remain higher by 40%, then I regret to say that it will be very difficult to increase our share and on the other hand, a very dangerous thing is that there is going to be a severe shortage of fertilizers. Yes.

[00:07:38]That's why nothing is being received from Qatar etc. And the current situation in Pakistan is of shortage. As a result, there may be a huge reduction in crops in the coming year.

[00:07:54]Due to shortage of fertilizer. So, if at this time it reaches 2.5 to 3%, then it can be a visible success in these circumstances while the war is still going on and it can still happen further, it is correct. Well Doctor Sahib, at present our government structure is running on the basis of debts and abundance of taxes, that is, impose more taxes on the class which pays taxes or take loans and run your system. So, do you see any serious effort to get rid of the burden of taxes and debts and does our infrastructure, which is currently owned by the government, have the capability to do so or not?

[00:08:46]This is a valid question for you.

[00:08:49]I regret to say that the meeting of the National Economic Council took place yesterday.

[00:08:55]Yes, in which the Prime Minister himself was present. The surprising thing is what are you reducing in expenses? Development expenditure, i.e. projects which are very important for us, have been reduced significantly to increase our share price.

[00:09:15]You will be surprised to hear that there has been an almost 25% cut in development expenditure and the surprising thing is that there has been an almost 50% reduction in the development expenditure of Punjab.

[00:09:38]We are unable to understand that for God's sake we should definitely reduce the expenditure but we should also reduce the current expenditure.

[00:09:48]Your countless institutions, departments, SOEs, these and those attached departments, autonomous bodies, 40 ministries etc., you will now have to cut almost all of them. Focus on current expenditure. If you cut development expenditure, your Sharanmu will fall further. We are fine. The position right now [sound of clearing throat] is that the throw forward of the projects that the Federal Government has is N10 trillion.

[00:10:19]Yes, and after much effort, the federal government is going to spend barely one trillion rupees this year. In this way, we have reduced the expenditure on development.

[00:10:35]Whereas it was necessary for you to reduce current expenditure.

[00:10:38]Correct. Well Doctor Sahib, Doctor Sahib, experts like you have been saying for a long time that government expenditure should be reduced. Reduce these ministries.

[00:10:49]Eliminate divisions. Which are the departments of the states and are also present in the states.

[00:10:55]Markaz is also present. These two officers should be eliminated. What is the obstruction? Why ca n't this happen? The fact is that the bureaucracy also plays a big role in our Ashrafia. If you have reduced it then the posts of secretary will be reduced. That's why we restrict them very strictly.

[00:11:15]Many years ago I prepared a downsizing report and as a result we proposed it.

[00:11:24]Three or four very careful ministers were with me.

[00:11:27]Yes, there should be 15 ministries at the federal level.

[00:11:31]Correct.

[00:11:32]When we took this report to the cabinet, the first question that arose was that if there are only 15 ministries, then will ministers like us get space?

[00:11:45]Okay, we are fine, the matter is over, the real issue is of space. The issue is of place.

[00:11:50]Doctor Sahib, please tell me, you have just mentioned current expenditures. Just yesterday in the meeting of National Ikhtadi Council, I also heard about NFC which according to CM KPK will be revisited after 3 months. After the award of NFC which is the tenth, Vifak says that we have become poor and the provinces say that we are not getting our share. Now there is a real need to revise it or its policies, which are your sideline policies, can be improved to achieve its objective which was our NFC 10 award.

[00:12:26]Our Federal Government has very smartly taken such measures in the NFC which was the seventh NFC Award of 2009-10 which is still in force that the share of provinces has almost come down to a very low level. How should I tell you? Yes. There are two ways, one is that there is a divisible pool through which sharing takes place and we have to give 57.5% to the provinces.

[00:13:00]That divisible pool itself has been reduced.

[00:13:02]Good.

[00:13:03]And how it was reduced was that the sales tax on petroleum products was changed to petroleum levy and declared non-tax.

[00:13:13]We removed 1400 billion from the divisible pool.

[00:13:18]Proves' share fell by 800 billion. The second method adopted was that the provinces were told that brother, you have to generate cash surplus.

[00:13:32]We should generate a surplus of Rs 1400 billion. That means, return Rs 1400 billion of the revenue that we are giving you, transferring it to you. Yes.

[00:13:43]Poor guy kept doing this with Sherfat in the provinces. The result is that the 57.5% share given in the NFC award today has fallen to 42% in reality. How much more would the Federal Government want to bring it down, it is not on them, Doctor Sahib, then this Federal Government always cries that the states take everything, in fact, the big people who are the masters also say the same, the former rulers also say that it goes to the states, the Centre only has the defence budget, repayment of loans or taking new loans. Everything goes to the states.

[00:14:25]You say that the resources of the states have been reduced.

[00:14:29]Markaz is taking more. have been reduced considerably. About 200 billion, and what has happened is that the debt repayments of the Federal Government have increased beyond limits. We have therefore gone through some years where deficits have been at record levels.

[00:14:54]Our conclusion is that this is not a problem because we are giving money to the provinces. They are giving less to the provisions. I told you that the real issue is that about 60-70% of the revenue goes only towards repayment of loans and payment of interest.

[00:15:14]We are the real issue. So to solve this, the Federal Government now has to first keep reducing the budget deficit. Secondly, the tax revenues have been quite large, for example, in the last two-three years, there is a real need for further increase in them.

[00:15:33]So we would like to see in the upcoming budget whether we are actually bringing in decent tax reforms which will result in a significant increase in our tax to GDP ratio.

[00:15:54]Right, this is what you have to see.

[00:15:56]Well, Doctor Sahib, growth has been reported in the petroleum sector. Please tell me how this happened.

[00:16:05]Growth in the petroleum sector: I am compelled to say that the Oil Companies Advisory Committee is saying that perhaps the consumption has started decreasing and there is nothing unusual in this because you had increased the price of petrol and high speed diesel by 30-40% and it is still there. So this was bound to happen. We are right. And secondly, progress in the private sector has also been very less.

[00:16:39]What is the reason for this? The main reason for this is that what is happening right now is that the level of investment is falling. You must have noticed that there has been a slight increase in the interest rate in the recent times. On the other hand, there is a very important component of private investment, that is foreign private investment, from which technology comes and from which access to the market is obtained, etc., there has been a 40% decrease in it this year and the third factor is that the share of the industry has fallen a lot in the last five-six years, hardly two and a half to three percent, the most important sector for us in terms of investment was the manufacturing industry.

[00:17:33]People have withdrawn their money from that and invested a lot of money in real estate, houses and commercial buildings. You might be surprised to hear that the level of investment in our industry [sound of clearing throat] is lower than it was 25 years ago.

[00:17:56]This is the state of investment. I am sorry to say this.

[00:17:59]Correct. Well doctor sir, this foreign disease of ours is increasing. However, it was said that we have also increased exports.

[00:18:08]We have also received more remittances.

[00:18:11]But the foreign losses are not decreasing. However, in this also our effort was to reduce imports. So, how harmful is this increase in the risk of cancer and what will be its outcome?

[00:18:29]Look, the most unfortunate thing is that since the war started in the Middle East, the price of oil has increased by about 35 to 40%.

[00:18:42]Yes, our import bill [sound of clearing throat] for petrol etc. was 14 billion dollars. Yes, if it increases by 35 to 40% then there will be an increase of approximately 5 to 6 billion dollars. On the other hand, by the grace of Allah, the good news is that home remittances increased last month, mainly due to Eid.

[00:19:07]But the danger in this is that people who are returning from UAE are probably remitting their savings.

[00:19:17]So, in the future, remittances may also start decreasing. There had been a 5 percent decrease a few days ago.

[00:19:24]Our third thing is that recession has occurred in the world.

[00:19:31]Due to rising oil prices. Especially in Europe etc. This is our biggest market, the European Union.

[00:19:38]And now our verandas will also be affected.

[00:19:42]So, going forward, there is a risk that the foreign exchange rate and current account deficit may increase significantly and there may be some pressure on our reserves in the coming months.

[00:19:59]Doctor sir, thank you very much for your time. Very much worth your time. After a break, Dr. Khakan Najeeb Sahib will join us.

[00:20:04]We will talk to him only about the budget.

[00:20:06]Stay with us. I'll be happy to greet you again after the break.

[00:20:19]Doctor Khakan Najeeb Sahib has joined us. There are donations. Doctor sir, thank you very much for your time. Doctor Sahib, please tell me this. Wazir Khazana Sahib said that the rate shown is 3.7%.

[00:20:30]Do you see this economic progress reflecting on the public level as well? is 3.7% I think that's the most important question Faisal that you have asked which means we are in a phase of stabilization. We are going through that. The growth in it has been 23% in the last four years and this year it has been 37% and if you look at it in depth then you will realize that out of this, agriculture has grown by 2.9% but crops have grown by only 1.4%.

[00:21:07]So the remaining growth is coming from live stock, which is 60%, it has grown by 100p.

[00:21:14]Large scale manufacturing has rebounded a bit, which means that some factories which were closed must have started functioning, there has been some improvement, so yes the service sector has also grown a bit, but 37% is 5% short of the target, they had set a target of 42%. Now similarly, in a financial loss, what one would call improvement means that the financial loss has reduced, but with the heavy bout of taxation, we have managed this financial loss.

[00:21:47]Which means what? Which means we handled this by doing many major taxations like manufacturing pay, personal income tax pay, advance taxes, withholding taxes, presumptive taxes.

[00:21:59]From this you came to know that Pakistan's investment has slowed down. Because people did not have money to invest and there was no incentive either. So Pakistan's 14% investment to GDP has become stagnant. Earlier it was 17 percent, it has come down in 2018. The low of several tens is on the surface.

[00:22:18]What did people feel in these three-four years and even this year, you saw continuously that the inflationary trend remained the same. This year the prices will increase by 7%.

[00:22:28]Prices have increased by approximately 78% in the last four years.

[00:22:32]Your ₹1000 now has a buying power of ₹560. That's why I tell the people that this stability that you talk so much about, I also say that it has come, it is the result of IMF program and by handling the turmoil in the economy, by breaking the demand, by slowing down the economy, by imposing many taxes and by handling all the losses, stability has appeared in the country. But you can say that in this a tailor-made structure of the economy has been transformed and taxation has become broad based.

[00:23:05]Expenditures have been greatly improved. It's not like that.

[00:23:08]Pakistan still has a taxation regime where major areas stay elsewhere out of the tax net and are taxed much lower than the actual taxation they should be paying. There are many areas in it. There is a retailer and a wholesaler. Now you will be surprised that we have given a scheme. Come on, let's give the government you know a bat at the bag, come on, you gave me a scheme.

[00:23:35]For a turnover of ₹ crore, you will be charged ₹5,000. That means if you are earning ₹20 crores then we will take ₹8 crores from you.

[00:23:44]What one has to really understand is that by using the stability in this change in structures, Doctor Sahab, Doctor Sahab, what you are talking about, ₹20 crore, ₹25000, basically the fear factor of FBR and taxation is so high all over the world but it is a bit higher here and because of that, generally the traders or businessmen think that wherever FBR gets involved, the ease of doing business becomes very difficult. So, I am convinced that this is a very good scheme. There is a lot of light. But how can one be convinced despite it being such a light scheme? How will people come on their own?

[00:24:24]Look, there are no two ways about it. One thing is that there should be fairness in taxation, the tax that we are paying should be so faceless. This means that digitization has progressed so much that we send you a pre-populated form. You look at that form and see that yes, this is my tax.

[00:24:45]You pay that tax.

[00:24:47]No questions asked.

[00:24:49]That is again at the end of the revenue collection authority. And the second thing is that this entire system needs to be changed, governance needs to be changed, the entire thinking of the way we think about taxes needs to be changed.

[00:25:05]Obviously we are not able to do this.

[00:25:07]We have been hearing the same story for the last 202 years that the fear factor of FBR is very high [sound of clearing throat] and compliance and what we call taxes like agriculture income tax will collect Rs 10 billion. There is a potential of 7800 billion. Meaning, you tell me what to do? The same is the case with GST on Service. There are very high transactional taxes on property. So people do not let him come. She underreports significantly.

[00:25:31]You know this, the system is riddled with issues. There are many like this. Let me give you a funny example that advance with holding presumptive which is deducted from your salary, which is deducted from manufacturing pay at source. If all these taxes are removed then 95% of the taxation head happens automatically. The compliance and the follow ups and what you call enforcement. That only brings you 5% of the taxation. So you have to think a lot about how to change this tax system. That's why tomorrow's budget will be truly Faizal.

[00:26:02]It's not about tax to GDP ratio in Pakistan.

[00:26:06]I have said it a thousand times, it's about what you said, what is the tax moral of the taxpayer? What is the tax comfort of the taxpayer and how geared are the authorities to actually demand the tax due from him. Now you know that something is totally very alien to Pakistan.

[00:26:27]And then people like me will also understand that if the retailer is 35 lakhs then it is 35 lakhs. Faisal Bhai, how can it be possible that those 35 lakhs have remained in Pakistan for the last 78 years and months. They are not in the tax state generation, Doctor Sahib, Doctor Sahib, what you are saying is that this time after so many years, if there is a turnover of 20 crores, then you will give 25000 on that. Now the common people are saying that this 8 billion which the government is saying, 50 billion, if you have to collect 50 billion from 20 lakh people and the rest of the burden will be borne by the salaried class or the manufacturers will bear it or it will come on the services, then what kind of fairness is this and how is this called compensation and how will the indirect taxation be reduced by this, then let me comment on the indirect taxation in advance that the Petroleum Development Levy this year is ₹1468 billion, next year ₹1727 [sound of clearing throat] yes, even the person who gets petrol filled for his motorbike is paying ₹150, the person who owns a Land Cruiser is also paying, the person who owns a Toyota is also paying. The rickshaw puller is also giving it. So how does the IMF justify this? They are educated people. That means, they have done PhD from a university like ours and they are saying that taxation on petroleum is very high. It is 167%, 116% but we will increase the petroleum levy and take it to Rs 1468 billion next year. Well, we will increase it to 1727 i.e. 18%. I am not sure how he is justifying this. Now come to what you said four years ago, the salaried class of Pakistan was paying ₹200 billion in taxes. Will pay Rs 700 billion tax this year.

[00:28:21]I hope that the retailer will earn Rs 35 lakh next year. I don't believe it is 50 billion.

[00:28:23]I think if maximum Rs 10 lakh comes then according to Rs 25,000, Rs 25 billion tax will come.

[00:28:29]Now that is the problem. So, this system of lot of people who are in the very bracket of taxation feel that it needs to be made comprehensive. The problem, Irshad Sahab, is that it is not that the government is not working. The government closed three institutions and sold PIA. All these things are fine. Some jobs were finished. Did some digitization work. The kind of work that is required in Pakistan is at a very different level. The reform, the restructuring, the reframing, all these things are of a very different level, which is called intuition, they demand that you go in and do these things. The IMF has given you stability. That's all they can give you. They Don't Know How to Change Your Taxation. They don't know how to restructure their expenses. For example, Irshad Sahab, you are a seeker of the Constitution.

[00:29:20]You tell me, if the income support program is not a poverty subject of Wafaq, then why is Wafaq going to spend Rs 830 billion next year? And then they go and tell the states to return 000 billion to them.

[00:29:31]Friend, let's fix the work of federal and provincial. I mean, who is stopping him? Whose subject is energy? The provinces say give this to us. So we have ownership over this. You are absolutely right. So then what Doctor Sahib said is that if this matter of gas and other diseases is handed over to the states, then do you think that it can bring improvement?

[00:29:59]Look, all these matters which are ultimately of the states are under jurisdiction.

[00:30:04]But if it happens then it should be with the private sector only.

[00:30:06]Just like you did with mobile phones or normal phones or banks.

[00:30:14]Eventually, we have to proceed like this. If this is not done then the states become important because they have the enforcement police and the theft has taken place in the states. That means Islamabad has some customers. All the customers are in the states.

[00:30:28]If the customer does not pay the bill, he moves on.

[00:30:30]How to do recovery? Let us see that this is a very serious issue. We have to fix these things in this budget. From the discussion we had today regarding the survey, it has become clear that there is stability and there is hard one stability. It has ruined the investibility of Pakistan and investment to GDP has dropped. LSM has recovered.

[00:30:54]But also remember that LSM is far lower than what it was many years ago. So that's enough to understand overall what is the manufacturing sector of Pakistan.

[00:31:04]No, LSM has grown but export has not grown, Doctor Sahib. So there is a contradiction in this also.

[00:31:09][nasal sound] The export is there and the reason why there is no incentive to export is because you have held the rupee wrongly. Pakistan 's real effective exchange rate tells me that the Rupee should be 290/295.

[00:31:23]But you're holding him at 278 in a sense.

[00:31:27]So, according to the real effective exchange rate, we should let it slide so that incentive is created.

[00:31:35]Whenever we have done this work, we have suffered losses.

[00:31:37]Now, in addition to that, there is a high energy cost. The entire energy sector in it. So here the same thing comes up that the survey shows that there is stability. We also agreed. But the survey does not tell what structural changes are needed to fix this sector.

[00:31:51]Well, Doctor Sahib's question is that if four years have passed since this program and now it is ending next year, then tell me that when we end this program, if we are not able to do any major reform, then will we be back to square one or will we really be able to continue this Isteqam which is being called Isteqam, this is a very important question, if the discussions that we had in yesterday's budget are seen to be implemented. Yes, at the age of 78, Irshad Sahab is coming on 10th May.

[00:32:28]All the institutions are pulling in one direction.

[00:32:32]Pakistan's foreign diplomacy is good. The name is good. Mac Stability IMF is moving along. IMF cover. Now it is your job to fix the house tomorrow. If there is a conventional budget and all these reforms do not come, then when the program ends in October 2027, then after two-four months, one or two years, you will be square one. If you are seen doing these reforms and then build an economic team of very smart economists, then an attempt can be made to run without funds, otherwise Pakistan's imports will increase, there will be dollar shortage, our reserves position will weaken again and we will be back to square one.

[00:33:17]Doctor Sahib, this investment is not coming to Pakistan.

[00:33:21]Sir, this is the question, Doctor Sahib, this is the question. You talked earlier about FDI being down 31% this year. These are the numbers of the authorities, we are not saying anything. Yes, what you are saying is that investment is not coming and investability is not there. There is economic stability. Now, we have implemented some of the stability that the IMF had talked about. To some extent we did some minor restructuring. A. Privatization of PIA has taken place. These are some of the things that have been seen.

[00:33:50]But on the other side, we are following the IMF policies. Due to this there is high taxation and that is a big obstacle in bringing investment.

[00:34:00]Energy crises also exist in their own place.

[00:34:02]So this is not a matter that ends at one place.

[00:34:05]Many people say that businessmen say that they should come out of IMF.

[00:34:09]We will bring $25 billion.

[00:34:12]You are right in this matter.

[00:34:14]To get out of the IMF, you need to really prop up your own team. Right? Which means that when you leave the IMF like this, you get very uncomfortable, you know, because the financial discipline, the discipline on foreign exchange, breaks down. Or we should promise that we will maintain this discipline.

[00:34:36]Otherwise, at least we should negotiate this program better with the IMF.

[00:34:40]Where we are standing right now, I would take the second route because no one will give you a single penny the day you exit the IMF, but at this time, we should have a major negotiation with the IMF for 24 hours on how we can reduce the tax burden on the productive sectors and tell them that I am cutting my expenditure by Rs 830 billion. I'm cutting 43 divisions.

[00:35:00]I am giving on the bottom surface.

[00:35:02]I am doing all these things. Similarly, a lot of work is going to be done in the PSDP development budget of the Federal Public Sector. Its efficiency is very weak. You go and fix it.

[00:35:16]Kashif Sahab, the thing is that this country, where we got stuck, is currently stuck in stability for the 24th time.

[00:35:25]Meaning, he has visited the IMF rate 24 times.

[00:35:28]He also mostly did not complete the program.

[00:35:30]Now if we leave this program incomplete then that will be uncomfortable for Pakistan. So let's hope that we can negotiate with them and give them what is called a reform budget tomorrow.

[00:35:43]Somehow we are controlling the financial loss by increasing it to new tax compliant sectors.

[00:35:51]That's a wrong way to.

[00:35:52]Ok.

[00:35:53]Well, Doctor Sahib, please tell me whether this is a matter of our ability, a matter of capacity? It is a matter of will that we make a resolution and then break it, that we cannot impose Zari tax, Zari income tax, we want to impose tax on these grocery sellers, but we are not able to do so, there are many other sectors and we feel that it should be done, then what is the reason behind this that now it has become a matter of our inability and capability, our resolution is not strong. Political issues were given priority over the economy.

[00:36:34]What do you see as the underlying reason? The basic reason for the developing world is very simple. And that is what I have always said that unless you solve the crisis of public sector competence in Pakistan, you will not be able to solve any issue. If Pakistan wants to make a long-term policy, first it will be a correct policy, then we will make a long-term policy and for making a long-term policy and for correct policy making, we have to get competent people, Irshad Sahib, you want to bring higher salaried people.

[00:37:12]You want to run the country in a generalist setup.

[00:37:17]This is not how to proceed. If it is going on then at present it is being run on the basis of the 11 PhDs who have come from IMF. The opportunity has come to you today to build a team that can implement this entire reform agenda that I have placed before you, not incrementally but in depth.

[00:37:39]Pakistan was on the ICU table, the last word I would say.

[00:37:42]Faisal IMF is the ICU doctor.

[00:37:45]He has taken him out from there and today he has brought him to the operation theatre table. Now his operation has to be done by local doctors.

[00:37:54]Whenever you build a team, Manmohan Singh had built a very strong team of economists in the 90s.

[00:38:00]Irregulation, liberalization, privatization. That's where Pakistan stands.

[00:38:04]Yes, okay. Thank you very much Dr. Khakha Sahib for your time. Come back after a break. I'll be happy to greet you again after the break.

[00:38:20]Irshad Sahib, the budget is to be presented tomorrow and as Dr. Khaqan Najeeb Sahib has said, tomorrow we will know whether it is a reform program or it will be a traditional budget. Overall, the reduction in the volume of development will definitely have an impact, but primarily the issue which we talk about a lot, these workers also talk about it, is that you are not reducing your current expenditures and there are huge political hurdles in it.

[00:38:49]Today Hafiz Pasha Sahib said a very surprising thing that you have reduced the share of the provinces from before.

[00:38:54]So what are you waiting for?

[00:38:55][Sound of clearing throat] What's going to be in tomorrow's budget?

[00:38:57]Look, there was a news today that firstly, the tax on electric [sound of clearing throat] vehicles that was being demanded by the IMF was not accepted by the government and secondly [sound of clearing throat] it was that it is on solar panels.

[00:39:15]This makes us feel that many other organizations might have been successful in doing what they did and might have been successful in convincing the IMF that we have to think about the people as well.

[00:39:28]One thing, as far as this tax is concerned [sound of clearing throat] you can widen the scope of the tax or increase the amount of tax. Hmm. The public's concern is that widening the tax base is of no use unless the indirect taxes are abolished.

[00:39:51]If you increase the taxes and you digest it and say that look, you were taking taxes from 10 people.

[00:40:03]We are both direct and indirect.

[00:40:07]Direct tax was being collected from 10 people. He was taking it directly from the remaining 90 people. If you increased the tax from 10 to 20 and that indirect tax remained in place, then the government's income increased.

[00:40:21]What benefit did the common man get? The industry will be available to the common man. The common man will feel relief the day you widen the scope of direct taxation and broaden the base and eliminate indirect taxation and reduce the taxes that are already being paid and due to which your economy is slow, this is a matter of Chamba, Irshad Sahab, what I don't understand is that you buy a car, there is food for one filer and food for the other non-filer, yes brother, why eat the non-filer when he is paying tax, make him a filer. You buy land and get so many non-filers for a filer.

[00:40:58]When a person is buying land or buying a car, he is giving you his filer data.

[00:41:03]Well, otherwise a person is paying you tax and is also buying something from you.

[00:41:10]You are also collecting withholding tax from him.

[00:41:15]You are collecting income tax as well as advance income tax. What does advance income tax mean? He has to pay income tax on whatever he earns that year.

[00:41:22]Even if he is not a patient next year, he will have to pay tax.

[00:41:25]Meaning, you have thought of various tricks and excuses that now we are being shown this beautiful dream that we are establishing the base of direct taxation.

[00:41:38]Expanding the scope. Increase your brother. Ok.

[00:41:40]We don't want to.

[00:41:41]Ok.

[00:41:42]But reduce the burden on those on whom you have already imposed taxes. Yes of course.

[00:41:48]And you have included the entire society in indirect tax, that whoever is buying a matchbox, whoever is buying a soap, whoever is buying a toothpaste, he is also paying tax.

[00:41:58]We have to reduce that too.

[00:42:00]Absolutely fine. You should bring Maswat.

[00:42:01]Irshad Sahib, another matter is that today the badfa Khawaja Asif Sahib also gave a policy statement [sound of clearing throat] inside the Parliament. Secondly, as notified by the Azad Kashmir government, the notice which was given to Kaldam Awami Action Committee on 7 October 2025 when they staged a sit-in and 1770 FIRs and other cases, now a notification has been issued that the notice has been withdrawn. The situation is that there has been detailed discussion about this Padma Awami Action Committee that earlier there were discussions with them but later they have to object in every situation. At present, he has Pindals at three different places in Rawalkot and his wish is to go to Muzaffarabad but he has not been able to do so.

[00:42:44]Now the issue is that the statements coming from their so-called leaders are also causing harm to the Kashmir cause. The conflict between Pakistan and Kashmir is also happening. And even though this matter has reached this far, we are suffering a loss because of it. We, the people of Kashmir, are also facing losses as there are major supply issues right now. The biggest stakeholder in it is the common man and he is getting affected. Actually, see, when all this was happening, this government adopted a clear policy on the very first day as to till where they have to provide relief and where they have to block the roads for this protest.

[00:43:27]See, this happens every time, getting relief for the people by protesting is one thing, it is a proper practice, by making it a daily practice, then this is a thin line, a thin line in the form of blackmailing.

[00:43:43]When you decided to provide electricity at ₹. The electricity is fine.

[00:43:53]We get electricity from Mangla Dam. Well, it is closed with Neelam Gelam in it.

[00:43:56]Nothing is coming to us. But this concession should have been given to the people of Tarbela also. When you decide on one hand or you decide under pressure by fixing the rate of wheat flour. If you take decisions under pressure, then as a result you face difficulties in the future.

[00:44:14]Even at that time you went to the extreme.

[00:44:18]Now you are forced to go to the other extreme.

[00:44:21]So it is better that this Awami Action Committee also adopts the path of accommodation and the government also thinks that now this matter is not just about a public protest. It is not ours or an immigration committee's.

[00:44:38]We can also feel its impact on our travel matters. There is definitely the issue of law and administration. The struggle in our region Kashmir can also be affected. It is said that India is trying to do this.

[00:44:58]You came into the political process, you came into the political process, you have public support. You have come into political struggle.

[00:45:03]You came into the political process, you came into the assembly. Actually, JKLF does most of the work, it has a leader who talks but they come in elections.

[00:45:13]Now, the affidavit of Rana Sanaula Sahib says that he tells us that you should also amend the affidavit related to the Pakistan area. Interestingly, the issue of Muhajireen is another matter, I also support the Muhajireen, but on this I have already said that look, there is no doubt in this matter that the Muhajireen who are in Kashmir and Pakistan have the right to be represented.

[00:45:36]When we say that the foreigners of Pakistan, who are overseas Pakistanis, should be represented in our assembly, then Kashmiris should also be represented and this did not happen today, nor was it done by this government or the previous government, the misuse of those facilities, the misuse of development funds for them, should be stopped, even the Prime Minister said that we are ready to talk on this, but the government says that if you do it by force or force of weapons, then it cannot last long.

[00:46:08]He will not agree. However, this matter is a matter of sentiment and is also related to the conflict between Pakistan and Kashmir.

[00:46:15]And it should be resolved within the ambit of law and through mutual consent.

[00:46:19]Yes, okay. Irshad Sahab, the program is over.

[00:46:20]Thank you very much, please allow me to do just that from today's program.