Madlanga Commission to hear Brown Mogotsi's bid to remove chief evidence leader

Ajouté : 2026-05-15

[00:00:00]Motswaledi says back on the line. I want to tell us what's happening in court today. Well, Jane, um at the Masondo Commission today, there is a recusal application that's being heard that's been brought by controversial uh figure Brown Mokhozi. He is applying for the recusal of the chief evidence leader, Matthew Chaskalson. And he says that this is based on an an interaction that he had with uh Chaskalson where he claims that Chaskalson wanted him to quote throw Suleman Karim under the bus.

[00:00:28]He says that he was going to be offering information to Chaskalson about Suleman Karim, another controversial figure that's appeared before the Masondo Commission. And he says uh this was going to be in exchange for immunity.

[00:00:40]And so, the perception that's been created by Brown Mokhozi initially was that uh Matthew Chaskalson would ensure that he comes out of the commission unscathed if he gives him um in enough information or damning allegations information rather against Suleman Karim. Now, the commission has been dealing with that this morning and and the lawyers for Brown Mokhozi have just completed their submissions. One of the first issues that the commission has is the application of the law because they have um applied [clears throat] the test for judicial recusal in their um in their submissions and in their argument, which would be a test that would be for a person who's a decision maker. So, this would be for the presiding officer in this matter, uh one of the commissioners, maybe even uh the the chief commissioner or the main commissioner that is um the the judge Masondo, right? But this test does not work for the evidence leader. And so, that's the first issue that the commissioners have with this.

[00:01:38]They're saying that this is an uh the type of argument that you would make if you want the recusal of the chair or other commissioners. But secondly, there's been a number of uh concessions that have been made by the lawyers for Brown Mokhozi today. Number one, they concede that there is no evidence in the WhatsApp messages or in the documents that they've brought before the commission that proves and shows Chaskalson ever promising immunity to Brown Mohutsi. That's important, Jane, because initially they had said very clearly that there was a promise from Matthew Chaskalson that you would be immune and I would protect you if you give me this information about Suleiman Karim. But now they've gone back on that and they've said that there is no evidence, but they had perceived it to be such or Brown Mohutsi had perceived it to be such. They've also really struggled to show the commission how this would have happened, especially around the fact that Matthew Chaskalson, it seems, responded to what Brown Mohutsi had approached him on. The perception that was initially created, Jane, is that it was Brown Mohutsi, or rather it was Matthew Chaskalson, who approached Brown Mohutsi and said, "Please give me whatever information you have on Suleiman Karim." But now there's been a clear concession by the lawyers for Brown Mohutsi, Jane, that it was actually Mohutsi who approached Chaskalson to say, "I've got information on Suleiman Karim. Would you give me immunity if I were to share this with you?" So that's the submissions that have currently been made before the commission. All right. So I should imagine this is not going down too well at the commission, but let's leave it there and we can talk a little bit later about what it is that he's been accused of and why the commission here is desperate to find out a little bit more about Brown Mohutsi and his workings with politicians.