How the Virtues Help Us Respond to an Increasingly Vicious Online Culture

[00:00:00]Welcome back to the word on fire show.

[00:00:01]I'm Matthew Petrusk, senior director of the word on fire institute and the host of the word on fire show. Thank you for joining us. From Bishop Baron's very first social media post close to 20 years ago, he and Word on fire as a whole have recognized that the online world is a rough and tumble place. While most over the years have interacted with our content with charity and respect, even if they disagree, there's always been a gallery of trolls who traffic in insults and profanity and are only interested in taking pot shots at the ministry rather than engaging in conversation. And so it goes. That's just part of the price of entry into the digital world, especially when evangelization is your goal. The internet culture, however, seems to have taken a dark turn recently. Whatever limited restraint people used to show in their online interactions seems to have evaporated in a toxic cloud of mob fueling and mobfueled rage replete with distortions, deceptions, and sometimes even explicit calls for violence exacerbated by the rise of the use of AI bots and anonymous accounts often based in foreign countries. It is increasingly difficult to know with whom you are engaging online or what their motives are. And sadly, physical threats from online sources are now also something we must take very seriously.

[00:01:19]So, how should we move forward from here? Is it still possible to make evangelical headway in this increasingly noxious online environment? If so, what principles should guide the way? Here to discuss the challenges and possible solutions to the current state of the online world is Bishop Robert Baron.

[00:01:36][music] Bishop, welcome back to the studio.

[00:01:48]>> Hey Matt, good to be with you again.

[00:01:49]>> So, today we're looking at the uh dark turn that internet culture seems to have taken recently um and what uh we can do to constructively respond to it from a perspective.

[00:02:00]>> Before we get into all that, what have you been up to recently? I'm not sure when this show will come out, but as we record it, I'm getting ready for uh a little celebration of my 40th anniversary as a priest. Uh kind of snuck up on me, but um some of the folks in the chancery are planning a a cool trip up to uh St. Paul >> first to visit one of my favorite religious buildings in in the country, which is the Cathedral of St. Paul.

[00:02:26]>> And we're going to visit there, have a tour, and then I'm going to say mass.

[00:02:29]And then we're getting on the bus and we're going to the Twins game. So, the Twins are playing I forget whom they're playing, but I think it's like 12:30 is a Twins game. So, a little um liturgy and a little baseball in honor of my 40th anniversary. So, that's coming up as we record these words.

[00:02:45]>> Beautiful. I remember we you got to throw the first pitch at a women's game a couple years ago. Yeah.

[00:02:50]>> That's a fantastic um an early congratulations to you, Bishop.

[00:02:53]>> Well, thank you.

[00:02:54]>> Uh well, let's now turn to a sad topic, a dark topic. um the uh the viciousness of internet culture. We're seeing real time sort of emerge. Um we're going to look at some of the possible causes and and then how can we respond to that. Um but before we do, Bishop, take us back in time to nearly 20 years ago when you just started posting uh online. What was it like in interacting with other people in the online environment at at that time?

[00:03:21]>> Yeah, I mean it was confrontational, I suppose, would be the right word. And I' I've told this story before when I I started with YouTube videos and I knew nothing about them. I just did these things. We put them up and I was happy when there were 200 people watch them.

[00:03:34]Uh and I discovered that you could comment. I didn't even know you could do that. And the comments were, you know, typically negative because people do come on to say, "Oh, how wonderful that was." But not typically. They they love to have an argument. So at first I was kind of put off by it. I was I was surprised. But in those days, I would engage people because they seemed like real people who had a real concern or question. And I like the fact that I had a little traction. If if they raised a question, well, all right, I can respond to that. If someone just hates religion, but they're off in the the corners of the culture. I never hear from them. I have no traction. But hey, it gave me a little traction. So, I kind of enjoyed that and I did a lot of it in those days. And I do think it's partially responsible for um the success of Word on Fire that I >> was on there. We're putting new things up a lot and I was interacting with people and I I've often said to >> colleagues who want to get in that world, that's a good combination. You got to be fresh and you got to be interactive.

[00:04:33]>> Oh, it was totally innovative at the time. No one else was doing that.

[00:04:35]>> Right. Right. So, I think that was really a good thing. Um and it was just less insane. You know, I think there was it was confrontational, but you didn't get the sense you were dealing with insane people or with or I think we'll get to this with carefully orchestrated campaigns of opposition. You didn't have that so much in the beginning.

[00:04:54]>> So, I didn't mind. I kind of I kind of enjoyed it actually getting into the, you know, it's the French call the de ka, you know, the joy of the of the battle. And uh so I I think it was confrontational but but not insane. What what other platforms besides YouTube were were you on when you first started?

[00:05:10]>> The earliest days. That's YouTube's one I remember. Uh >> were you on Facebook?

[00:05:15]>> Yeah, eventually. But uh that was a little while later. The people that the Word on Fire staff would know better.

[00:05:20]Like the Instagram Reddit. Uh >> yeah, I did Reddit. That's right. Yeah.

[00:05:24]>> Not that was fairly early. I've done three of those maybe. Uh now we could do another one. I don't know if that's become dysfunctional. Probably has. But it was, you know, it was fairly brutal.

[00:05:34]you know, you go, it was people don't know Reddit, they ask me anything. You just go on there and and I would feel any question. Um, and then of course people could respond and you know, you have to wade through an awful lot of just obscinity and stupidity and all that.

[00:05:49]>> Uh, but I still thought it was a useful exercise and I learned a lot. I did some videos I think and articles about that what I learned from Reddit. like here you could distill pretty readily um here are the four or five major objections that people have.

[00:06:04]>> Yeah, that was when the new atheists were in their >> supremacy and they had lots of devotees on the ground you know in that space. So no I was I was willing to do that. Uh a lot of people said to me why are you wasting your time and you know all this these crazy people and it's so obscene and why >> but I just felt you know it was still a useful exercise in those days >> it was the only place to reach those people.

[00:06:25]>> Right. Yes. And I I always felt that my model there was my hero Thomas Aquinus who now admittedly a higher level than Reddit. But I mean uh would do what he called um quad liberal questions. Quad libet means whatever you want, right? So he would just open himself to whatever question you have. And and believe me, Aquinus did get irreverent questions and you know kind of offbeat things and all that. He wasn't dealing, I don't think, with the obscinity of of Reddit, but I took that as kind of my example of all right, you know, I'll just ask me whatever you want.

[00:06:59]>> Well, it's been uh close to 20 years since you started doing that. Of course, >> 2007 was the first YouTube video.

[00:07:05]>> Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[00:07:06]>> Yeah. So, next year will be 20 years.

[00:07:08]>> Many things have changed uh including your schedule. You were exponentially busier now with much less time to be able to gauge people online. But even even to the extent that you are able to engage in a limited way now um what kinds of changes have have you seen over these close to 20 years in internet culture?

[00:07:24]>> Yeah. One is just personally the the nastiness level and the tendency of these internet mobs to form and that's been one of the most disagreeable parts of it. You know I've talked a lot over the years about Renee Gerard and Gerard's theory of scapegoating violence and part of that is this tendency of mobs to form. So when a scapegoat emerges there's tension within the community that one of the best ways to create this ersats sense of community is we all come together in blaming you know this person or that group. Well, mobs can happen uh easily enough in in the real world in the internet space. think it happened like that because people are connected and so there's you know a video emerged or someone said something that we don't like and then one person attacks and oh oh that I want to get on that and all I have to do is go yeah that's right and boom and before you know it these mobs on the internet can form which are really awful and they participate in exactly the Gerardian dynamic. the people participating in the mobs get a kind of sense of community, but it's so dysfunctional and it'll fall apart like that and it's mean-spirited and so on, but um we so respond to scapegoating violence. We love it. We love when a scapegoat emerges and the internet, you know, like this the devil loves that because it's it's perfect. It's a perfect field, you know, for the Gerardian dynamics to play themselves out. So that's happened. But a second thing and I think in your opening remark you made reference to it is the way these mobs are now kind of orchestrated or even artificially created.

[00:09:07]>> Absolutely.

[00:09:08]>> So what can happen is um maybe one person was got a little financial support even support from uh highle institutions can make a negative comment. Let's say there's a video of mine that they don't like. Okay negative comment. Now go to your AI and say make a thousand similar comments to this. Well, AI that's that's easy peasy. I mean AI can create a screenplay in about 10 seconds, right?

[00:09:36]So make a thousand variations of this remark and then through bots and through burner accounts and these various things suddenly boom those thousand comments will appear.

[00:09:46]>> Yeah. So the trouble is see people will look at the video and then oh we all love a car wreck right so oh what's going on in the oh there's negative comments oh I see thousands but that could be one person who simply orchestrated these you know that to me is so gross and dysfunctional and the end result you want my honest opinion I wouldn't have said this 20 years ago 20 years ago I would have said no comments that's good you know get in there and see what people are saying and maybe you can contribute and you If I were king of the universe, one of my first moves would be no more commenting on the internet. I I think that's just become um um fedded and and dysfunctional. Uh and it's so marked by these artificially generated um mobs that it it just doesn't contribute. I would say look, watch a video. Fine, watch a video and then make up your own mind. Maybe don't pay attention to to all this nonsense in the com boxes.

[00:10:48]Yeah. I remember man this some years ago um I heard Joe Rogan say this, right?

[00:10:52]The most popular podcaster in the world, right? This some years ago he said, "Oh, I never look at comments." And I I stopped reading comments years ago because he was on to all these dynamics.

[00:11:02]>> Jordan Peterson, the same thing. Oh, he never never look at comments. It's it just, you know, wears you down and it contributes nothing to truth and goodness. And so I I'm in that position now really. I just think that's dysfunctional.

[00:11:15]>> I think this is something really important for our our audience to to understand uh and it's it's happened to you. It's happening to you in real time is that on most social media on all social media platforms right now. It's highly likely that most of the comments are not real people or one person working through all of these bots.

[00:11:33]>> And I don't know if people know that. So maybe this is good to advertise it a bit but awareness campaign. No, I had I that was a surprise to me when it was first explained to me and uh >> yeah, so I be aware of that fact, but I would say generally avoid uh comment boxes and watch a video, listen to an argument, make up your own mind about it, and don't worry about these these mobs that are just following the Gerardian dynamic, which is nothing but bad.

[00:11:58]>> And there's an additional element to the Gerardian dynamic is it's now monetized.

[00:12:02]So there's there's a financial incentive to get clicks, to get eyeballs, >> uh, and mobs do that well, >> which is terrible when you think that I'm going to artificially generate just all this negativity so that I can make more money off of this thing. It's bad at so many levels, right?

[00:12:17]>> What about u digging deeper into the anonymity uh of the internet and social media? Um, how do you see that affecting the the the character of the online environment?

[00:12:26]>> Well, yeah, that's, you know, that's part of it. The the ease of making a negative comment. Uh, I've said this before, but when I was a young guy, uh, someone reads an article, I don't like that article. I'm going to write a letter to the editor. And you got to sit down at your, in those days, your typewriter and you have type out a letter. You got to find an envelope and a stamp and you know, what's the address of that thing? And if you go through all of that hassle and then you send it successfully to the newspaper, some editor or subeditor will pick it up and it's just a crazy rant and throw it away, right? and maybe a handful of good articulate uh objections make their way into a newspaper editorial page. Okay, that's fairly functional. What's dysfunctional is I don't like that in my mom's basement. Enter. And then you know 24/7 365 all over the world that comment is just there. someone else in his mom's basement sees it. Yeah.

[00:13:25]>> You know, there's there's nothing that that limits it. So, it might even approach something like responsibility.

[00:13:32]>> Exactly.

[00:13:33]>> And then the anonymity thing too that well I can just do this and I with impunity. Uh at least with the letter of the editor, you had to sign the darn thing so they know who you are. Um so no, that's contributed to the dysfunction of it.

[00:13:47]>> You know, you you you know this figure well, the uh character of Thrmicus in Plato's Republic who argues um and I think it's fair to say that Socrates has some difficulty in in um in countering that look the only reason that people behave uh is because they're scared of getting caught and punished if they don't.

[00:14:07]>> Um what do you think the the the state of the online world especially as it's connected to an anonymity says about Thruska's argument? Is he actually right if people can get away with doing something malicious they'll do it? Oh, no. I remember I read The Republic for the first time in college, you know, and uh I always liked Thrmicus, meaning I don't agree with him, but I he's a he's like Mchaveli, like when you read Makaveli, >> who's a darn good writer and is right about so much, meaning he was really cleareyed about how human beings actually behave. Now, he makes the sent like now use that to get what you and all that. I don't approve of that, but I mean a really cleareyed assessor of the human condition. Well, thromicus is a bit like that too that hey come on don't give me all this justice nonsense and you know doing the good and here's how people actually behave you know and sure I think he's largely right about that and I I'll speak as a Christian Plato didn't know about this but we know about original sin that has worked its way and the effects of it has worked its way into our systems and so yeah a lot of us are like thrmicus you know actually go back to the the ring of gaises right which comes into in the Well, that's what Tolken is playing with. You know, if you had a ring, if this ring of mine, if could render me invisible.

[00:15:24]What would I do? What would I do? Would I do anything? I'll never get caught.

[00:15:29]I'll I'll murder. I'll rape. I'll steal.

[00:15:31]I'll do anything because I'll never get caught. Would I do it? You know, and like a Thrmicus would say, "Well, yeah, of course he would. Of course he would."

[00:15:39]Uh, Mchaveli, yeah, and you should. It would give you a huge advantage. Um, so is that the anonymity of the internet?

[00:15:47]It's like wearing the ring of Gajis. I can do all this stuff and well, who even knows? Now, you know, the internet world, God knows, uh, you can usually be found out in some ways, but at least there's the illusion of anonymity that contributes to this negativity.

[00:16:02]>> Um, so again, maybe playing devil's advocate here. Um, we could say I look, I recognize that the dumpster fire is a popular term that that is the online word. It's full of misinformation. It's full of disinformation, lies, but the only way to counter that is to be on the front lines and to be commenting. And so if we were to shut down the anonymity, if we were shut down the people's ability to comment, then it would just get that much worse. You see any merit to that argument?

[00:16:29]>> Oh, maybe. You know, I again, I think if I were King of the Universe, I would outlaw comments. But I would say I I love having the forum that you can put a video up, you can make an argument, you you can publicize your views pretty readily. Um, that's all to the good, you know, and if the commenting could be somehow controlled, now that's the trouble. It really can't be. But no, and I want to emphasize too, man, people might think I'm I'm a hypocrite because I I use social media all the time. It is good. It is good. And and heck, I think we've used it um for very good purposes.

[00:17:04]were on fire. And I also think this rise in um affiliation among young people.

[00:17:11]>> You know, I think the internet outreach of the churches has had a lot to do with it.

[00:17:15]>> Absolutely.

[00:17:16]>> You know, that we've been able to reach younger people, not just young, everyone now, uh in a way that we couldn't otherwise. So, no, thank God for the internet and I've used it indeed. It's just that it's like anything, you know, it's the devil. It's original sin. It's like anything good can go bad. All right? Everything good has a shadow side and it'll be used by the dark powers, you know. So, the same thing has happened to the internet world. It's good, but it carries a shadow.

[00:17:42]>> Well, let's now dig into the Catholic intellectual tradition and moral tradition u more deeply to look at some tools and how we can move forward in this environment. Um, so let's go the the four cardinal virtues, temperance, fortitude, justice, and prudence.

[00:17:55]Bishop, let's let's start with temperance. Um, what is temperance and how might we be able to apply it to the online world? It's I would say it's a control of your of your passions so that the achievement of justice can become possible. It holds off internal threats to justice. So by justice here I mean kind of doing the right thing like rendering to each is due, right? But one of the obstacles to that is is my own interiority. My emotions and all that are offkilter and so my [clears throat] inmperance is preventing me from doing the right thing. Think of again someone I know I shouldn't do this but my passions are such that I do it anyway it's St. Paul, right? The good that I would do, it's that that I don't do, the evil that I would avoid. That's what I do. Who will deliver me from this body of death? So inmperance produces that problem. Um I think there's a lot of inmperance on the internet. You know that you know the right thing, you know, to say something that's true and indeed loving to someone versus I am so angry and I'm going to let that person know.

[00:19:00]Well, that's an inmperate, you know, uh, frame of of soul that leads to trouble.

[00:19:07]>> So, we often times also think about temperance with regard to, you know, fasting from from food or drink. Um, do you think it's ever a good idea to completely fast from going online?

[00:19:17]>> Yes, I do. And, uh, you know, it's it's one of the most interesting reforms in seminary education. This now goes back about 20 years. It was Archbishop Shepu had a lot to do with the reform of this whole thing to have what we now call the propedutudic year right before you even enter into seminary formation formally there's a year and they often use the term of detox you have to detox a young person from this internet culture because part of the proputudic and I would say to a person because I talk to these these young kids um what they remember the most and appreciate the most about the proputic year they study they pray and all this, but what they remember most is they took my phone away and how my whole life changed for the better, you know. So, yes, I do think at times real abstension from it is a good thing to learn a more temperate approach to it. So, again, I'm not recommending just get rid of your cell phone and let's go back to the, you know, lite years of the 1970s. Um, we got to find a way to deal creatively and properly with these things. But yes, something I I've talked about during the last two lents now I've one of my resolutions is one day a week put the phone away >> the whole day.

[00:20:28]>> Yeah. And I put in the drawer and I have a um protocol with my assistant in case of an emergency how to reach me you know because the bishop of dascese you have to be in touch with what's going on.

[00:20:39]>> Um but yeah I endeavored I didn't always work but endeavored one day a week put the phone in a drawer just don't use it.

[00:20:45]I think uh detox is is the right word because it's now been shown empirically that the devices and the content are addictive.

[00:20:53]>> Absolutely. The the machines are designed that way and and we know it. We know it and we all experience it. I'm addicted to them. Yeah.

[00:21:00]>> And they they're all designed to be that way. And um it's wickedly clever how that was done to us. And uh >> you know I I remember I didn't get my first cell phone till I was 45.

[00:21:12][laughter] You know, we all lived our lives without them. And we all travel.

[00:21:17]It's amazing to me now. I think all the traveling I did, all these plane trips.

[00:21:20]>> How did I get lost all the time, right?

[00:21:22]>> Yeah. And [clears throat] I relied on um a a pay phone, you know, and finding a if I my ride wasn't there, well, I better find a pay phone and you call the number and >> or asking someone for directions.

[00:21:33]>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember vividly being in the car and you have a piece of paper like, "Okay, turn right at the red light." And and then when the big tree is that the big tree, you know.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah.

[00:21:43]>> Well, we all did it.

[00:21:44]>> Yeah.

[00:21:44]>> Well, and also we were all better navigators in those days.

[00:21:47]>> I was much better. Now I'm hopeless. I'm hopeless. In my own dascese, like if I'm uh this happens in my dascese because it's much of it is rural and I'll I'll be in a place sometimes that's so far away from cell towers that I I start to go home and it's not working and I'm like now what do I do? [laughter] And I I start where's the sun >> at east? I'm look I am or like where's Orion, you know, and so I'm hopeless with that. Um I forget where I was going with [laughter] that now, but uh it's just living without them, you know, I think is wise. I think that is a temperate thing to do is have some abstension from them.

[00:22:25]>> How about then a fortitude? What is fortitude and how might we be able to apply that virtue to being online?

[00:22:30]>> Courage, you know, having the strength and well, see, if temperance holds off trouble coming from the inside, fortitude holds off trouble from the outside. So, I want to do the right thing, but there's an external threat to me. And what I need therefore is courage to face that down. Um, you know, are there threats coming from people online?

[00:22:48]Yeah. You know, and and I better fit in and and if I say this, they'll get mad at me. And um Yeah. And you need courage to say and do the right thing. Are you always putting down what what you really believe is true or are you just contributing to a Gerardian mob? M um are you responding in real love to someone? You you're willing they're good or are you just acting out of you know your own resentment? So yeah know and I think also the courage to resist a mob mobs formed. We all we love mobs. That's what you already understood in our fallen state. We love mobs. It's like looking at a car wreck. I mean we we're drawn to some of these terrible things.

[00:23:27]Mobs forming. I want to be part of that.

[00:23:29]Oh yeah. I read that too.

[00:23:32]Uh, do I have the courage to resist that? You know, and the story by the way that Rene Gerard loved was Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery.

[00:23:41]It's perfect example, right? The mob is formed and now Lord, what's your judgment here? You know, >> how about the one, you know, among you without sin? What was he doing there?

[00:23:50]Was he was he was breaking up the enthusiasm of the mob, right? So, do I have the courage to resist that? That's where fortitude comes in. What about the the courage to to post as yourself online? Do you think that that applies?

[00:24:02]>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. That would require fortitude. Yeah.

[00:24:07]>> Uh how about then justice? You already briefly touched on justice, but um from a virtue perspective, what is justice and and how does that play out?

[00:24:13]>> Yeah. I I to put it collarally, I think doing the right thing. Uh think that every moment of every day, you're you're faced with that decision. Am I going to do the right thing right now? What's the call of justice? And go back to Plato.

[00:24:27]rendering to each his due which means you know I walk into a room and there's another human being there and I'll say good morning how are you well what am I doing I'm it's an act of justice I'm rendering what's due namely respect if I walk in and you know brush past somebody or they say hello to me and I ignore them that's an act of injustice it's very simple you know it's not world changing but it's an act of injustice right now we're both engaging in an act of justice because um we've committed to doing this program to record that uh you've done requisite work. I've you know done some preparation for it and and we're now um executing that um that act. It's an act of justice. If I were to say to you uh no, I'm not going to do I just don't feel like it and uh I'm not sick or anything. I just I'm not going to do it, you know. Or uh you didn't prepare, you know, you didn't prepare anything for this. Well, those would be acts of injustice, right? So, I would put it that way. It's rendering to each his due or doing the right thing. Now, internet world, before you go, you know, send or enter, >> yeah, >> ask that question. Am I doing the right thing here? Am I saying what I think is true? Am I doing what I think is right?

[00:25:39]Am I engaging here in an act of love, which is willing the good of the other.

[00:25:44]Now, it doesn't mean namby pami. If someone's saying something really stupid and dangerous and and you want to correct that, that's an act of love.

[00:25:51]you're willing, they're good, you know, but it's an examination of consciousness required. Am I really doing that? Um, I think it's a darn good question to ask before you hit and maybe even have like a little sign by your computer to remind you I put justice or love or something before I hit that button because we do it so often out of the opposite of love and justice, right? So, I think that's a very relevant consideration >> under this broad umbrella of justice.

[00:26:18]Bishop, can you speak a little bit about the sins that particularly apply to to sins of speech? Yeah, >> a category I think is often times completely elited. Can we sin with what we say?

[00:26:28]>> Of course. And I mean, one we talk about with lying, telling an untruth, but calumny is something that is um defined in the catechism of the Catholic Church.

[00:26:37]You know when you are willingly and maliciously attacking someone's reputation that you are trying to destroy that person's reputation by telling a falsehood um that's calumny and that's a very serious sin. It's bearing false witness, right? It's a violation of one of the ten commandments and it's a very serious sin and it, you know, talking about wounding.

[00:27:00]Look at young people in the internet.

[00:27:02]So, we've been talking more about, you know, like people our age, older people, but gosh, young people, may I say, especially young women are deeply affected by what I call calumny, which is the reputation destruction. And people love doing that. And it's a and the internet provides a marvelous forum for that. You know, I'm going to do everything I can to undermine you and to wreck your reputation in the in the minds of others. That's a really serious moral crime. And I I think preachers should preach about it. I think the church should talk about it more. It's where a lot of sinning is going on. And we can go to all the traditional places we talk about sin. But here's a new one is the internet has provided a terrible um field for this kind of moral dysfunction.

[00:27:54]>> And it's not only just about what you say, but also what you repost. I think that's often times it because it looks like an endorsement of what someone else has said, >> right? And if it's I mean, it's always an examination of conscience. Why am I doing this? I I mean, can you repost something you think, hey, that's really good. That's that's insightful or that's interesting or that's helpful and I want more people to know about that. Great.

[00:28:14]Great.

[00:28:15]But no, I'm reposting that because I hate that person, too. And and I want you to know what a jerk that person is.

[00:28:21]And I'm doing everything I can to undermine his reputation. Um, that's serious moral business. And I don't think I'll speak, you know, in a uh accusing myself uh that we don't talk about that sufficiently as as moral leaders in the church. What about and this gets a little bit more nuanced then we'll move into uh prudence but um thinking something might be true but not necessarily knowing it's true and reposting it or knowing it's true but not really having a good moral reason to share it. Are are those also potential sins >> and right maybe it is true and and you know it's true but why am I doing it am I doing it out of love willing the good of the other maybe you know something is true and I want other people to know this it's an important thing okay fine but okay it's true >> but I'm going to repost it because I hate that person and and I want that truth about him or her to be better known. You got to examine your conscience. You know why are you doing the things you're doing? uh think of the internet as a moral arena. I think that's important.

[00:29:24]>> Yeah. And Bishop, finally, uh prudence.

[00:29:26]What is prudence and how does it apply to the online world?

[00:29:29]>> Well, if justice is kind of I always think of that's you know doing the right thing. Temperance protects you from inner trouble, fortitude from outer trouble. Prudence is the is the virtue that allows you practically to um make justice a reality to make a more abstract principle into a reality in this particular situation with this set of circumstances. What is the right thing to do? So you could say abstractly justice is doing the right thing or rendered each is do or it's the mean between extremes or whatever fine but all right here and now what is the right thing to do? prudence uh determines that. It's a it's an intellectual virtue, Aquinus will say, because it's a it's based on memory. It's based on how you've assessed similar situations. Um so it's a it's a practical practical and intellectual virtue. Um >> I would say the internet it's look I I' I've been in these battles before. Uh I've I've faced opposition before. uh I've done kind of bad things before you know so in this situation what's the right path maybe the right path the credential thing is to say delete [laughter] you know maybe it's not enter it's delete maybe it's >> I know what I just wrote is so clever and it's so funny and oh boy oh boy but it's not the prudent thing for me to be doing right now it's not the path of justice that's open for me right now.

[00:31:03]Um, so no, I think that's in some ways it's it's the queen of the virtues because it's where it's where, you know, the rubber meets the road. It's where you you concretize your moral convictions.

[00:31:15]Um, so again, I think the internet is it's an arena and the virtues they're not obsolete. On the contrary, those virtues are all at play in this.

[00:31:25]>> And finally, uh, Bishop is the founder of Word on Fire and we do most of our work online. What's your um what's your assessment of the future of the online world? Do we have reason to hope, despair?

[00:31:35]>> That's a good No, it's a good question.

[00:31:36]I don't know if I can be that good at predicting. I you know, look, it's you're never going to put it back in the tube. I mean, this world exists and it'll always exist in some form. Um you know, my hope may it's more of a hope than a prediction is that people will see just how awful the negative side has become and they'll find a way to push past it. Um Maybe through some disciplining and and I don't not censoring but maybe a self censoring will kick in when people realize how dysfunctional you know and maybe we can in our own small way contribute to it.

[00:32:14]The more people know about these comment boxes and and where all that's coming from, maybe they'll say like, "Oh yeah, I'm I'm not going to get in that world.

[00:32:23]I'm not going to be part of that mob or I'm not going to pay attention to that."

[00:32:26]If if more people could do the Joe Rogan thing or Jordan Peterson and just say, "I I'm done with comments. I'm not playing that." Peterson used a line, I've used it many times since. He said, "Uh, oh yeah, the chattering of demons."

[00:32:39]You go into those comment boxes that it's the chattering of demons.

[00:32:44]Don't be seduced by them. Don't don't be drawn into it because it's it's a very apt comparison because, >> you know, oh my god, what are they saying? What are they? Oh, I got to respond to that. Respond. Yeah.

[00:32:59]>> Right. And so then the you're part of the chattering of demons.

[00:33:03]Ignore them. You know that I'm a big Simpsons fan. Remember years ago um the episode when these great advertising figures came to life in in Springfield.

[00:33:13]They start and and the the answer was don't look at them.

[00:33:18]Oh my god. Oh no. And then they were terrifying. But then I think it was Lisa of course breaks the code. He goes, "Don't don't look at them." And the minute they did, they all just fall over. Well, that's the internet in a way. You know, there's a com boxes. Uh, don't look at them. Don't read them.

[00:33:34]That's a complete waste. And it's more than a waste of time. It's dangerous.

[00:33:38]Then they'll go away. That maybe that's my hope, >> more than an expectation that they'll go away if we learn to ignore them.

[00:33:44]>> Well, if I could give a a plug for the Word on Fire Institute before we move to our listener question. Uh that's what we seek to do is to preserve the original form of commenting on the institute platform. We have thousands of people active on the platform commenting under their real names. Okay.

[00:33:58]>> Uh it requires a lot of moderation and a lot of engagement with uh with the members and we have to have a clear goal. What we like to think of it as like a university classroom where you're going to allow lots of different kinds of conversations but you have a specific goal in mind for those conversations. So as long as you keep that goal in mind that helps keep the comments moderated and directed. So for anybody watching who wants to comment, you can join the word on fire institute.

[00:34:21]>> It won't be the chat room dance.

[00:34:22]>> No, it will not. It will not. It's been exercise.

[00:34:26][music] >> All right. Well, it's now time for our listener question. Today we have Taylor asking for a concise definition of the meaning of respect from uh the Catholic intellectual tradition.

[00:34:38]>> H okay.

[00:34:42]Hey, Bishop Baron, would you please define respect? In our home, we teach our children that every human being deserves two things, love and respect.

[00:34:53]We taught them the definition of love that we learned from you. Willing the good of the other.

[00:34:57]>> Good.

[00:34:58]>> Could you please provide an equally succinct definition for respect? Thank you. And God bless you.

[00:35:05]>> That's good. I don't know if I can off the top of my head. Um, something like the acknowledgment of the worth and value of someone might be what respect means. So, right, love is to will the good of the other. Respect to acknowledge the the worth and value of someone.

[00:35:24]It's not it's not as good as Thomas Aquinus' definition of love, but uh that's I guess how he'd see it. That's good though. I like the two things you're talking about, both love and respect. Um because respect doesn't mean you know that you can't correct someone uh you can respect in fact the more you respect someone the more you might want to get them back on the right moral path. So it's not like this wokeist understanding of you know well you got your opinion I got my opinion I'll never impose myself on you. No if you respect someone you acknowledge their worth and value well then you you want them to be living a morally upright life. So, I kind of like that the more I think about it, uh, acknowledging the value and worth of another.

[00:36:07]>> Well, thanks so much, Taylor, for reaching out to us. If you'd like to ask Bishop Baron a question for a future Word on Fire show, please visit askbishop baron.com. Again, it's ask bishop barren.com. We do always love to hear from you. Well, thanks again for another great conversation, Bishop.

[00:36:23]>> All right. Thanks, Matt. Always a joy.

[00:36:24]>> Looking forward to the next one. That does it for us today. Thanks for joining us on the Word on Fire Show. If you're interested in learning more about how Word on Fire can help you grow closer to Christ, become a better evangelist with and for others, and work for the common good, consider joining the Wordonfire Institute. Check us out at institute.wordonfire.org. [music] That's institute.wordonfire.org.

[00:36:46]And we'll see you next time.

[00:36:49][music] >> [music]