The Science Of The Unknown: The Hidden Truths of Cosmic Science - Lawrence Krauss

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:02]The great thing about the universe is it's big and it's old. [music] So, rare events happen all the time.

[00:00:07]There may be life elsewhere in our solar system. I'm betting there will be in the oceans of Europa or or Enceladus under ice cap. And we may discover that in the next 10 or 20 years that there are other independent [music] genesis of life. If we discover that in our solar system, that's amazingly important. Cuz if there's more than one genesis of life in a single solar system, it really implies it's ubiquitous. We are actually the creators of AI, then that continues to evolve.

[00:00:32]>> [music] >> Well, yeah. I mean, the intelligence we may discover in other systems may be AI, what you would call AI. But it could be that as I suspect may happen on Earth that the dominant intelligence may not be biological. What's always amazing to me, Lawrence, is that the average person finds this stuff fascinating. Well, you know, but why is that amazing? Because you know what? I realized when I was writing the book, I want to talk about the ideas [music] at the forefront of science. Are we alone in the universe?

[00:00:56]What does it mean to think? You know, when I see green is the same green you see. How did life originate? How did the universe begin? [music] How will it end?

[00:01:02]These are the questions we all have. We give them up, but we all have those questions. So, it's not so fascinating It's not so surprising [music] that questions at the edge of science fascinate people because they're always the the kind of unknown threshold that provokes us when we're kids, when we look up at the sky at night. If you know things before you even ask the questions, that's religion.

[00:01:23]>> [music] >> Have you changed your opinions about God?

[00:01:26]>> Well, I don't I don't know why I do that. I would change my opinion if there was just one thing, evidence. All of the evidence is there was no need for a creator. Where are we going next, Lawrence? What do we have to do? [music] It could be wonderful or awful and it's up to us. The future is racing towards us like a freight train, but it's doing so on tracks [music] that we built. But one thing is certain is the most exciting things in the future are those things we haven't the slightest idea about now. I like to say I wake up every day I'm surprised if I'm not surprised.

[00:01:55]If I'm not surprised, it's not a good day.

[00:02:08]The world is changing.

[00:02:11]Inspiration is everywhere.

[00:02:14]>> [music] >> It has never been so easy to connect, share, >> [music] >> and bring people together.

[00:02:23]We're learning from others and finding the best in ourselves.

[00:02:31]Challenging [music] our beliefs.

[00:02:35]Sharing our vulnerability.

[00:02:38]Overcoming [music] our fears.

[00:02:43]>> [music] >> Transforming ourselves so we can transform the world.

[00:02:50]How far can [music] we go?

[00:02:53]This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is >> [music] >> This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is Lawrence Krauss, the world-renowned theoretical physicist, commentator, and best-selling author.

[00:03:11]You are the president of the Origins Project Foundation and host of the Origins podcast where you discuss science, culture, and social issues.

[00:03:19]You've written over 500 publications on physics and astronomy, receiving many awards for your research, and have published 10 critically acclaimed books including the New York Times bestsellers The Physics of Star Trek and A Universe from Nothing. Your latest book, The Known Unknowns: Unresolved Mysteries of the Cosmos, explores cosmology's greatest unanswered questions and the importance in science of not knowing.

[00:03:44]You believe the unknown possibilities of our existence are fascinating to everyone and ultimately the driving force behind all new discoveries.

[00:03:52]Lawrence, welcome back to London Real.

[00:03:54]It's great to be back here again. I always enjoy Brian. It's great. It's great having you. This is like your fourth time you've been coming on the Yeah, I'm like a pro at this now.

[00:04:02]>> You're so good at this.

[00:04:03]>> [laughter] >> And he's been dazzling me with his magic tricks.

[00:04:06]Go to our Instagram and you can see it.

[00:04:08]I'm pretty impressed. As a former magician, the skills are there.

[00:04:11]>> I can't ask for anything more. Yeah, that's right. I'm I'm working on just in case I have to have a, you know, backup and new career. I'm working on magic.

[00:04:19]>> know. Um I want to dive into the book because there's some fascinating stuff and people always want to know about the cosmos. They always want to know these things. But first I got to get your hot take on some things that are happening right now. The first one is artificial intelligence. Now, you have probably known people in the artificial intelligence field for decades. But obviously ever since December last year when ChatGPT got on people's minds, now everyone is talking about it. There's billions of dollars going into it. We're actually investing in a company here through London Ventures. I've had a bunch of people on including MIT Professor Max Tegmark for the Future of Life Institute. I've had Peter Diamandis, another MIT grad as well, who created I think Singularity Institute. I've talked a lot about it. What is Lawrence Krauss's take on artificial intelligence?

[00:05:07]Well, you know, I'm not as It It's a very It It's a very useful new technology.

[00:05:15]And like new technologies, you they they can go in many different directions. It will change the way we live. It'll change what it means to be human. But so is So have so many things. I mean, that's what I'm I'm amazed at the fixation of concern about it. I I actually signed on one of the things that it said we should hold off of ChatGPT moving past, mostly cuz I thought it was being trained incorrectly. It was a little too woke.

[00:05:39]And but I am more interested in what it can do.

[00:05:45]And fascinated by what it could do. And so I I take the long view. Actually, in the end of the book I talk about AI and and when when people talk about how it's going to ruin everything, I'm reminded of going back to ancient Greece, to Plato. Um at around that time, a little bit before actually, a few hundred years before that, lang- written language had come in. The Greek alphabet had come in and and and and around the time of Plato, everyone said that's that's the end of storytelling.

[00:06:15]There'll be no more storytelling because of writing, because people won't remember things anymore and and and and face-to-face really matters.

[00:06:24]Well, that's true, but writing didn't destroy storytelling. And AI will will change a lot about the way we live. And how whether it makes the world much better or much worse is kind of really up to us.

[00:06:37]Fortune favors the prepared mind. And so you should think about those issues. And there are possibilities that are dystopic. Uh but at the same time, I I think it's at this point it's much ado about very little, I think. ChatGPT is amazing, but it's not thinking. But what it can do is amazing and it can be useful.

[00:06:58]And people are worried that it'll, you know, people use it instead of writing and and it But it will it can it can help you.

[00:07:05]And I suspect there'll be many other areas that AI will help people. And it'll replace jobs, and that's unfortunate, but many things replace jobs. Automation replace jobs. And again, you can imagine a future which is probably the future, where the people who control AI control all the resources. That's the one way it could go. Or it could go in a way where yeah, a lot of people don't have jobs, but the rest of us could spend our time in coffee shops listening to music or or reading books and and life would be better. And we can choose that. Um you know, there's a it's it is interesting that the jobs that it'll probably replace are the opposite of what people thought. Um I think people thought about robotics replacing menial jobs. Those are probably more safe than the than doctors and lawyers and you know, so it replaces all the lawyers. Well, that's no loss, right?

[00:07:56]>> [laughter] >> Anyway, so I'm I I have mixed feeling about it, but I think we have to take the long view that it is every new technology has pluses and minuses and you know, even smartphones change what it means to be human. I I was just on the tube and I was reminded I was talking to a friend yesterday that 20 years ago, I remember when I was in Japan, everyone was I'd go on the on the trains there and everyone would be staring down at at something. It wasn't a smartphone back then, but it was maybe 30 years ago. But they'd all be staring and I thought this is a a weird thing and now you go on to everyone's staring at a smart It's So, it's changed what it means to be human. Has it made it worse?

[00:08:35]Well, in some ways it has, but in other ways just think of the things you can do that you couldn't do before. Yeah.

[00:08:41]Yeah, it's weird because we can say a lot about things about mobile phones and it keeps you not present and social media can be toxic, but like on the flip side, I know this and a bunch of influencers that I know that have been on the show, they said, "I've met my best friends on social media." Because you find people like you all around the world that normally you would never bump into. And so, you can actually make some amazing connections.

[00:09:02]>> You can and and you know, I'm always not that it I This sounds weird, but I I know sometimes when I respond to someone who's written me, they're they're surprised that they're interacting with me.

[00:09:13]And it makes their day. That's great.

[00:09:15]I'm I feel very fortunate about that.

[00:09:17]But I've had the same thing happen to me. And it's amazing who you can connect with. That's one of That's one of the examples. You can connect directly with people you would never have imagined you'd be able to connect directly to.

[00:09:28]And this is one of the small aspects.

[00:09:29]So, yeah, it's changed the world and and and it is unfortunate that kids maybe fixate on maybe don't read so much and you never you can all all the standard arguments against it but no I think AI is uh is is fascinating and it's like quantum computing another area it's going to be going to be fascinating but it's it's there's a lot of hype and I'm always opposed opposed to hype so in any area of science and technology and maybe people need hype in order to sell things and that's okay but but um so things are never as the future that people discuss are never as near as the future really is but the real future what I love about the real future is is you don't anticipate it that's why I don't when someone says there's a futurist I don't listen to them because it's like science fiction right which I'm supposedly get asked a lot about because of the physics of Star Trek we're not driving hovering you know flying cars right now all the future that people imagined in the 1950s and 60s that's not the future but the internet which people didn't imagine is the future so I like the fact that the future is is totally unexpected it's not knowing and not knowing makes makes life exciting and my god it would be so awful if we knew everything um it's funny you mentioned Star Trek and that book that's a best seller for you I met William Shatner this this year at the it was like a blockchain conference in Texas and one of our companies we invested in was doing his digital collectible and I don't fanboy very often but I was like I got to meet Bill and so we hung out with him and I watched a bunch of old Star Treks and then there was there was one where he was actually talking to a computer and asking it to to create a summary and it was just very AI and he's like okay computer can you summarize all this stuff and it came back with a response and I was like wow I never really realized that that was kind of chat GPT back in the it exactly there's a lot and it's often accidental I mean when I wrote the Star Trek book and and um there's lots of things that have come to pass but it's only because creative people imagining solutions to problems often come up with similar solutions.

[00:11:35]It's not as if science fiction caused the science, but sometimes, you know, to scan you, right? That Star Trek was created before even ultrasound. But obviously it's better to if I want to find out what's going on inside of you to be able to have some way of learning about without opening you up. And and we were talking earlier about people who are older and Bill, who happens to be another friend of mine, is is 92. Yeah, 93.

[00:11:59]>> just did a podcast and it's hysterical.

[00:12:01]You should watch it. I we we've done a few things together and every time we do it just breaks me up. He's so on on interesting and funny and on the ball. Again, he when I think of people uh when I think of getting a lot older and I look to people like him and say, "Okay, there's hope."

[00:12:19]>> Yeah, he just went into space. He's still completely irreverent, very opinionated, and everybody loves him. At the conference everybody went gaga.

[00:12:26]>> Yeah, yeah. And and because he doesn't cuz he is fun and he and and he doesn't take himself too seriously. And he's yeah, which is hysterical. He reminds me of an uncle. I told him that on the on the my who who's now passed away, but was one of my favorite relatives and and um yeah, and we're both and we're both of course Canadian, which is really part of the, you know, >> [snorts] >> another secret. Canadian mafia.

[00:12:47]>> Yeah, yeah. Is there anybody you don't know? I mean, you did stage shows with Johnny Depp, you're doing movies where you star in with Werner Herzog. I mean, come on. There's there's a lot of people I'm sure I don't know. Oh my gosh, you're plugged in. But anyway. Um just with AI quickly, you know, you're a physicist and a lot of people make the comparison of technology that can be destructive to humanity by going back and looking at the atomic bomb and fission and fusion. Obviously the movie Oppenheimer just came out and so it's the only example people grasp to when they say, "Here are these scientists working on a technology that can not only kill the scientist, but kill everybody else." And AI is the only real equivalent that we can think of Sure, >> fact, I'm partly I was for a dozen years ahead of the board of sponsors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, which by the way was created by Oppenheimer and Einstein. They were the first heads of that and then I felt very honored to have that position later on. But when I was it's primary purpose was to warn people about the dangers of of nuclear war. In 1947 created you know, and and scientists talking about the dangers of nuclear war. When I came on board in 2006 to 2007, we decided to broaden it to talk about all existential risks. So not just nuclear weapons, but at the time we were concerned about biological weapons and eventually AI became one of the things. So it's one of the things the Bulletin now focuses on. I'm not involved in the Bulletin anymore, but I'm a little I'm I have mixed feelings about having put all those things in the same box because they're very different.

[00:14:16]Nuclear war can end our end humanity like that.

[00:14:20]AI has a potential existential threat as are some aspects of biological weapons.

[00:14:25]But they're much longer term and climate change was another one we added. But they're all very different. But it is it you could imagine a future. You could imagine the Terminator future, right?

[00:14:35]Which is what people imagine. But it always amazes me that you know, people imagine the Borg or or or that kind of thing instead of instead of things where where AI really is a useful tool and and who says the future is human? I mean I don't I mean it sounds awful to say that. But it could be the long term that biology has to incorporate aspects of of of what you would what you would call artificial intelligence, which I think is neither artificial nor intelligent at this point. And but it does have that it does have that you can imagine the technology certainly for example if you put together AI and nuclear weapons, right?

[00:15:17]If AI had the decision when to launch nuclear weapons, then that's really of concern.

[00:15:23]But, you know, it's it Of course, it's of concern. But, right now, what most people don't realize is the United States, the president can decide to launch nuclear weapons without and is the only person that can do that. No one else has to approve it.

[00:15:39]So, do you feel better about AI or a few years ago Donald Trump being, you know, So, you got to worry it's We somehow think, "Oh, if humans are involved, the better decisions will be made."

[00:15:50]But, that may not always be so clear.

[00:15:52]So, it's um yeah, it's it's a double-edged sword.

[00:15:56]And but all all really fascinating technologies in one way or another have impacts for good or bad. I mean, industrialization did, too, right? And you And it it changed the world and it it caused a lot of problems um sweatshops and and those kind of factories and in England early on.

[00:16:14]But, we, in principle, in principle, we we are rational human beings who can then look and try and improve things.

[00:16:23]I'm I I I mean, in principle because it happens too too little, but we can we can look at things and try and moderate them. And And the best thing we can do is talk about the options in advance, so we're prepared, as I say, because then because that kind of technology does evolve very quickly. Technology as a whole evolves very quickly, much more quickly than our ability as humans to fully adapt to it.

[00:16:48]But, we can at least think about it in advance and try and imagine and discuss, so we're more prepared. And who knows what the future's going to bring, but that The future's terrifying, but it's also exhilarating. And that's what makes it so exciting. Also, nuclear weapons are quite an example of us being in control of them. I mean, so far we have.

[00:17:08]It's amazing, right? Over 70 years we have they haven't been used since since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I actually am surprised. And I have said I don't I as I often say I don't make predictions about the future except for 2 trillion years in the future where it's easy and then no one's around to check. But but it would be surprising if nuclear weapons were not used against a civilian population sometime this century. Now what will happen about that? Um I don't know and I'd love to be wrong in that prediction. Yeah, it's still one of our most dangerous threats, one of our most existential risks.

[00:17:43]>> and we and people don't talk People talk about AI more than nuclear weapons when when there's still a thousand nuclear weapons on each side of the US and Russia that are on on hair trigger alert. Yeah. But people are somehow more worried about chat GPT and it it's kind of interesting to me. There's a great movie called The Fog of War with Robert McNamara before he passed away. And at the very end that's his final warning is that this is the most dangerous existential threat we face. And it comes on the back of a conversation I think he had with Fidel Castro 40 years after the Cuban Missile Crisis where he found him at some meeting and they were having dinner at the back and he said, "Would you have pressed the button?" And he said, "You god damn right I would have."

[00:18:21]And he said, "Even knowing it would have killed 90 million Americans and killed everybody in Cuba." And he said, "Yes, I would have." And for him that was like this realization that oh my god, even as humans we can make such critical errors.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah. Yeah, as human you know, yeah. It depends on the day. I'm I'm I'm pessimistic but then as another friend of mine I hate to be Name dropping again. Come on, I like it. I like when you name drop. You do it in a nice way.

[00:18:44]>> a writer named Cormac McCarthy who's who's passed away but was a good friend but he when I first met him he's very his futures are very dystopic and and [snorts] and and I and I when I first met him um I was surprised at how chipper he was. And I said, "You know, how can you be so And he said to me, "I'm a pessimist but that's no reason to be gloomy."

[00:19:05]Which I which is my motto now if I if I have one. I love that. But The Road is a tough watch but >> It is a It's a tough read. I could only read three pages of that book a day because I It just was so reading and he wrote it for his son as a present and who I know his son and it's a It's an interesting present for your son.

[00:19:22]>> Wow. And they uh it's tough reading still and not an easy watch either. Mads is a great actor in it so >> Yeah. Um so all right and one thing final point about nuclear weapons uh Marc Andreessen of Andreessen Horowitz big >> Yeah. you know, investor from Silicon Valley was on Rogan's episode recently and he did make a good reminder. He said there was never a World War III. And he said that's because of this threat of nuclear weapons.

[00:19:45]>> Well, so far yet mutually assured destruction has worked up to now. Yeah.

[00:19:49]Unless it unless it leads to mutually assured destruction. And so yeah, what it what it what I think people would say and again I'm sure I'm not the first person to say that World War III will be last one because but who knows but people always said World War I will be the last one so you never know. Please continue. I'm not so optimistic.

[00:20:06]>> You alluded to ChatGPT and the fact that it was kind of becoming it's spitting out wokeness and there was a lot of tests on it and it was being trained on the internet and the internet is being censored by typically Silicon Valley companies who have their own view of the world that they export to the world.

[00:20:22]>> Tell me about Big Tech. Tell me about fundamentalist wokeism. Like what are we dealing with today because it's an important issue to talk about. You're probably one of the few people that will talk about it. Yeah.

[00:20:31]>> Everyone's experiencing this right now.

[00:20:33]It's a topic du jour even in England right now because uh we have a very famous speaker, comedian Russell Brand who's been demonetized from YouTube. Members of government are reaching out basically asking platforms to close him down, demonetize him based on headlines and accusations >> Yeah, without ever proof. Yeah. Yeah, no proof, no no no no No no court of law, no fair you know Yeah, which is maybe just an example of what could be in the future. What do you see? This has been happening for years.

[00:21:03]Well, it it it if you ask me about things that terrify me That is something that terrifies me because it you take the area where I know best from my life's experience which is academia and science, which should be immune from this and isn't.

[00:21:18]The biggest anathema to science is is not being able to ask questions. Is not being able to ask any question and say anything no matter how offensive if it leads to you know, discussion. And what you see in the United States now is that that's just been turned off.

[00:21:37]In academia, people are afraid to ask questions.

[00:21:41]And and when that happens, progress ends as far as I'm concerned. And so I really see that as a threat. Now, it's a threat in some sense, but it's only a partial threat cuz if it happens in the West, well, in China, they won't be afraid to ask those you know, they'll just try and get the best people to do the best science that they can and China has its own issues. Let me not pretend it doesn't. But uh but so yeah, you talked about I I I don't know that I coined it, but I talked about fundamentalist wokism because you know, I woke is is well-intentioned. It's you know, trying to say well, what are the social consequences of things. So I don't want to make it seem as a bad term, but it's like Islam in principle is no worse than any of the other religions. But fundamentalist Islam is is really bad.

[00:22:31]But so you know, and fundamentalism of any sort is. And fundamentalist wokism is this is is basically saying certain ideas cannot be discussed. Certain things cannot be stated. Certain things must be presumed to be true without evidence. And that's what you're seeing.

[00:22:48]So some people say, well, you can't you can't ask the question. You can't say what really there to you know, you can't say there are two sexes or or what is a woman.

[00:23:01]And you're not allowed to. It's somehow dangerous to say that. Well, nothing should be dangerous. Nothing should be sacred.

[00:23:09]Nothing.

[00:23:10]And and that's my concern when we have a society where groups and particular groups that can control discussions, whether they're academic groups or Silicon Valley, say you can't even raise this question because it's so dangerous to say it.

[00:23:26]Well, it does remind you of 1984 a little bit, doesn't it? And and I think that that's a bigger threat to progress in the West than almost anything else. And I write a lot about it because it it it it really scares me and I see most I'm many, if not most, academics that I know are afraid to say things. They won't teach certain things for fear of the consequences. Well, when that happens, you know, what's university all about?

[00:23:56]University is not supposed to be safe.

[00:23:58]It's supposed to be the opposite of safe. It's If you're not uncomfortable, you're not learning.

[00:24:04]And and yet now it's you just see it and and I'm a way step away from it and I can talk about it. And I do and I think many of my colleagues don't because they Well, for the very simple reason they're afraid of the consequences and you know, I and well, I've always been not afraid to speak out things in spite of the consequences, but now I'm more I'm more removed from it, so it's easier as well. It's dangerous because what you see on all sorts of platforms, academia, even a place like YouTube, is what happens is people self-censor because they know if they say something, they'll be demonetized, maybe they'll be thrown out of the university. And so sometimes, even without being conscious about it, they'll stop talking about things. And then they self-censor and then you don't even realize you're doing it sometimes.

[00:24:48]>> And we I mean, we all self-censor to some extent and it's part of living in a society. You know, we're born free, but we live forever in chains, you know, but but uh, uh, but And that's okay in in certain circumstances, it makes sense. Uh, but, but when you're when you're talking about a classroom in some sense, well, [snorts] again, you you know, you The idea is not to overtly try and hurt people.

[00:25:12]But, if you offend someone, that's their fault. That's their problem. If you don't intend to, they own that problem.

[00:25:19]And and and you can And then they can decide how to respond to it.

[00:25:23]But, but uh, you can't you can't You know if you're if you're speaking about important things, you're going to offend some people.

[00:25:32]That's just life. Yeah. And and but being certain be being certain of things is really the problem. And I mean, you know, I don't want to bring things back to the book, but I will say that's the why I said I don't know are the most important words in science, but they're the most words in learning because it's an invitation to discover. If you know things before you even ask the questions, that's religion.

[00:25:54]Yeah. Yeah. It's true. This all goes right to the book because you have to be willing to say don't know. And that means it opens your brain up. Okay, let's talk. Let's learn. That's why you should wake up every day. And parents should say it, and teachers should not be afraid to say it. Too many parents, when their kids ask them questions, are afraid to say I don't know. Teachers, too. But, yeah, let's say I don't know.

[00:26:13]Let's discover, even if it means turning to the internet. I don't know the answer. Let's discover this together cuz education should be a voyage of discovery.

[00:26:21]And it should be exciting. It should not be regurgitating.

[00:26:24]I was I I was on a in in a movie once and and and and and it was a a documentary about going into space but the farthest about the Voyager spacecraft. And I was at some event talking about it. And this isn't profound, but it was amazing to me that I'd never thought of it before that each time each time a kid learned something, for them, it's the first time in the history of the world it's been understood, right? So, every everything should be that kind of a joy of discovery.

[00:26:52]It shouldn't be oh well, people knew this before. It's hey, I figured this out.

[00:26:57]And that's what education should be all about. You mentioned 1984. I just recently reread that or audio booked it and he lives he wrote it right near where I live in Hampstead. And man, that's dark. You talk about the road, man. It's really dark and you go deep down into the thought police and the the speak rights and the monitors that watch you and can hear you and you know, it it it just it's this technology that's in place to monitor the society and there's no way around that.

[00:27:25]>> well, and you see there is and you're seeing that but it's funny how people he missed it, right? It was it was a it was maintained by a secret police and violence but you don't really need that.

[00:27:37]Apparently, you know, that's what's interesting. He was thinking, you know, he was more spurred on I think by the Soviet Union and potentially or or the experience of what was happening there and and what and again, it's a case of life is more interesting than fiction.

[00:27:52]It's it is scary book and you're right.

[00:27:54]When you read it, you see all these all these parallels to things that are happening but but secret police aren't really needed to do it, right? That's that's the interesting thing to me. Yeah, that's the scary thing and we found we saw that during all the lockdown is that that the your neighbors will enforce without even knowing that that's what they're doing. The people will will will will will censor each other.

[00:28:17]Or and or and that's the talk about enforce. I mean, this is exactly like 1984 the Stasi Stanford, you know, universities would have would invite people to anonymously report on their colleagues.

[00:28:30]Students on other students. There was they were having a third day and hired a third party firm to allow students to make it to be informers.

[00:28:38]Well, what does that remind you of?

[00:28:39]That's terrifying. Yeah, in 84 the children are ratting on the parents.

[00:28:44]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's uh and you're seeing, you know, you're seeing students encouraged to rat on other students or professors if they say something in class that they that they found offensive and you know, it's really and that that's straight out of that and it but it's more it's it's scarier in a way because it's the one place maybe because I'm a I've been an academic and so I I think it's the one place that should have been immune from that.

[00:29:08]>> I agree. And um when it happens there, it's it's really terrifying. So right now we're streaming on this service Rumble which has come out and said that they support freedom of speech and they are not here to judge someone based on rumors.

[00:29:21]Uh one of the House of Lords people here in Britain wrote them a letter last week saying, "Are you going to demonetize Russell Brand like like YouTube did?"

[00:29:28]And they said, "How dare you? How dare you reach out and ask us to do that?"

[00:29:32]Their response now is we might block you in this country. And so you've got this media government industrial pharmaceutical complex that has, you know, a certain agenda in mind that's good for business. I'm not even saying there needs to be a conspiracy. And then you've got a bunch of other people pushing back and these digital media companies are more powerful than a lot of governments. And so it's an information war, Lawrence. That's what we're in. And it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

[00:29:58]That's my concern.

[00:29:59]>> again, it's like nuclear weapons or anything else. It's got it's got two sides.

[00:30:03]There are awful things about the internet. I mean misinformation is huge. But on the other hand, isn't it amazing to be able to pick up there's more information in my phone in my pocket right now that I can access things that that it would have taken me weeks or months to find the answer to. I know. I mean, I started to write books.

[00:30:23]I remember I'd have to go to the library and look things up and it would take, you know, a day to find a reference and now it's like a second. So the access to information is remarkable, but there's also access to misinformation. And and that means we have to change how we teach people.

[00:30:40]It used to be facts were what was important in teaching, but that and it should never should have been, but it was. But it should be process. How to tell information from misinformation is the key tool that we should be teaching kids now because that's going to affect their lives more in the future. How to how to learn to be skeptical, how to compare sources.

[00:31:00]Um because the facts, you know, they can access. I mean, there are certain skills you want to teach kids how to read, how to write, how to do math, how to do math.

[00:31:09]And how to do math right and realize it's not um racist to get the right answer. And uh um uh or to know how to get the right answer. And um but beyond that, it's how to tell the wheat from the chaff. That's what we should That's what education should be doing in the 21st century.

[00:31:25]Need to teach our children how to think.

[00:31:27]Um how to think and how to and how to be how to think and how to be able to process other information appropriately, which is to not turn to echo chambers.

[00:31:36]We all do to some extent, but >> Yes. How to critically assess.

[00:31:39]>> Yes. Um while we're on all the controversial subjects, I might as well hit them before we get to the book.

[00:31:43]Okay. But uh you've talked about um academia's missing men. I know at MIT right now, an institution that's probably I don't know where it is actually. Maybe it's 60% men.

[00:31:55]>> 60 or 70% men.

[00:31:56]>> Um and I was there it was 70% men. Now is run by mostly women and then >> Oh, not mostly, 100%.

[00:32:03]>> 100% women in all of the executive roles.

[00:32:06]>> chairman of the of the board of of the board, the president, the provost, the dean, and and in this case five of the eight engineering departments, okay?

[00:32:16]Which I mean, look, in principle that's okay, fine, but but but it clearly doesn't represent the demographics of the institute. So it indicates something's being done artificially. And if they And as I point out, if it were the opposite, which it could have been, you know, if it were 70% women and 100% run by men, people would be noticing that and arguing there's a problem.

[00:32:37]And so um that kind of tokenism is dangerous, I would argue, because it also minimi- um the people who run the place may be may be the best people. But you automatically suspicious when you see that that the boxes are being ticked and and that's that's what I worry about. Okay, I appreciate that observation. And then you went in further with white privilege. Talk about that and how that's also infecting academia and other pieces. You talk about papers being written about that. Yeah, okay, you're really getting me now. Okay, I'll I'll get I'll get after I'm going to get after this program. But um well, look, it it We live in a What bothers me is we live in a culture of where a victimization where where people are proud to to be victimized and to and to list and to check off the boxes of their victimization. And the point is we all are victimized in certain ways.

[00:33:33]I And and it's more than white privilege.

[00:33:36]It's socio-economic privilege. There is socio-economic privilege. Fine. But the probably the the group right now, and I was just reading this, that probably the group right now which is most victimized when it comes to the ability, let's say in academia, um are poor white kids uh for many reasons.

[00:33:55]And and just talking about how you're victimized is is self-demeaning and and and suggests systemic issues which may or may not exist. That but you you you have to demonstrate that they exist. You can't say, "Oh, because I'm X, I wasn't able to do things." Because I I see In academia, it's just not the case.

[00:34:23]It's just not the case. No matter what the claims are. As a chairman of a department, I've seen there's less sexism and racism in academia than probably anywhere else in the world, but yet people are calling it systemically racist and sexist. And um and so when we when we are and then when we're required when they have these statements where it's basically like the the loyalty oaths in the 1950s against communists when people can't get jobs in academia unless they sign a loyalty oath basically saying the institution is sexist and racist and here's how I'm working to to counter it. Some Can you imagine some young string theorist who's been working in mathematics his whole life and barely has got gone out of his room or make it a him. It could be a her, but it whatever. And then suddenly have to write a statement in order to get a job showing how they've been actively opposing race you know in in their work that their work is actively anti-racist or anti-sexist.

[00:35:21]They you know, it's just ridiculous.

[00:35:23]It's ludicrous. Is that what's being required in all the universities?

[00:35:26]>> yeah. And oh yes, and there are these DEI statements. In a few two years ago Berkeley So there are these there's this infrastructure diversity, equity, and inclusion that are now permeating all universities, growing much bigger than than the money that's budgeted to the academics or to student loans or student support and they basically oversee hiring and promotion.

[00:35:52]And recently say that I I there was Berkeley was looking for a faculty member in in biology.

[00:35:59]Well, all the people who apply have to write these diversity statements showing how they're doing this. Okay, fine.

[00:36:05]Who cares maybe? Except that 76% of the people the first group that scans the applicants are the is the DEI bureaucracy. 76% of the applicants were removed from the pool before you could even look at their research statements of biology to decide what they were doing in biology. Well, that's clear nonsense.

[00:36:25]I mean it it's it's it's a worry.

[00:36:28]Uh and that you're seeing that in in uh you're seeing that requirement. And some people would say, in fact, I just published a letter by a scientist, and often my colleagues who are most sensitive to this are people who grew up in the former Soviet Union, where you were required to pledge, you know, you're required to pledge to the party before you could be in in academia.

[00:36:48]And and whether or not you agree with the the politics that are behind it. And again, it's well-meaning. Look, we don't want racism. We don't want sexism. We want equal opportunity. It all sounds good.

[00:36:59]But then if you're required to pledge to the political goals in order to in order to get a position in in physics or mathematics, that's a worry.

[00:37:10]I mean, it should your politics should be irrelevant. And moreover, an assistant professor, this is the other problem. An assistant professor or a postdoc is not going to There is racism and there is sexism in various parts of the world and and in in various parts of society. But you're not going to solve the problem at the level of an assistant professor of physics.

[00:37:32]You you're going to solve the problem in inner cities in the United States to make sure that there's schools that that and there's books. I I lived in Cleveland and I used to go into the schools and I'd see how they didn't have books. And of course, it immediately uh puts them in a disadvantage. Young black kids in Cleveland are at a disadvantage.

[00:37:49]But that's how you're going to solve the problem. You're going to solve the problem by trying to improve family life and all sorts of things. You're not going to solve it at the level of an assistant professor of physics.

[00:38:00]You also see these issues getting weaponized by political parties as well.

[00:38:03]And then they just turn up the dial, and then they literally become weapons. At least that's what I see sometimes when I go >> Yeah, and I and you know, and I'm I'm my politics have virtually been more on the left, although I'm now often called a right-wing pundit cuz I write in the Wall Street Journal and other places cuz that's where that's where you can talk about these issues. You really can't talk about them as much in the New York Times. That may be changing, but um they are weaponized and it's and it's embarrassing for me to to see that. And so I I speak out. I mean, I've criticized the right for many years about certain things about well, you know, about scientific truth or at least scientific evidence. But I criticize the left when when when they're um bean counting when it comes to, you know, I'm a big believer in merit, for example, and and and I understand demographics, but but uh the the the profile of a certain institution need not mirror the demographics of the If it doesn't mirror the demographic of the world, it's not evidence of racism.

[00:38:59]It could be evidence of many other things. And so requiring that you check off these certain boxes when appointing people or anything else is is demeaning to them, once again. It's not just demeaning to society. Yeah, I know. It ends up infecting the whole self-esteem of everyone. In the long run, it actually doesn't create better anybody.

[00:39:18]>> It it it doesn't And it makes people You're right. It doesn't create better anything. It it reduces people's self-esteem. It reduces people's sense of security. And um yeah, so I'm that's a that's a big problem. Do you think this gets worse before it gets better? Oh, yeah.

[00:39:34]Absolutely.

[00:39:35]You know, every five four years ago three years ago people were saying me, "Well, people are beginning to notice this now." And but it gets worse before it gets better. It's true that this too shall pass, but it doesn't mean it's not going to pass without a lot of victims.

[00:39:47]And real victims. And and society as a whole uh and we see it we saw it in the communist scare in in the '50s and we've seen it in many different places. And but I see no evidence I see evidence of growing awareness, but I still see evidence that Yeah, I think it'll get worse before it gets better. More dangerous than AI, wokeism.

[00:40:09]I don't hierarch- I don't do things that way. I think of apples and oranges. So, you know, there are dangerous and not dangerous and I don't know which is more dangerous.

[00:40:17]And uh um uh uh um But I know we have to talk about the things that are dangerous. And the things that are And yet not be so afraid of what's dangerous, to not realize that there are opportunities. As I say, the motivation behind wokeness is a positive one. Social justice initially is an was is a goal to try and make the world more just. You can't argue with that. But then it it gets pushed.

[00:40:42]Same with AI. It's a It's It's a tool that can assist us. Look, you know, people say we give up our freedom with AI. Well, you walk in an elevator. I walk, you know, I didn't walk in an elevator to come in here, but there are elevators in your building.

[00:40:55]And uh when you walk in an elevator, you've given up your freedom already to one of the earliest forms of computers.

[00:41:01]You press that floor button and you hope it's going to take you where you want to go, but but you don't know.

[00:41:06]Anyway.

[00:41:08]>> [laughter] >> Well, to be continued. I'm glad we can have these discussions, because what you really need is a is a long-form nuanced conversation to understand.

[00:41:16]>> not not soundbites.

[00:41:17]>> Yeah, unfortunately we get reduced to soundbites, and then a lot of people judge someone without ever actually listening to what they said. It's a headline or a clickbait title based on what they said.

[00:41:26]>> Yeah, when I write something and the And unfortunately, usually it's an editor that chooses the title, which sometimes relates to what I've written and sometimes not.

[00:41:34]Uh the the the discussion that follows on Twitter is No one actually reads what I say. It's the title. And Well, not no one. But you worry about that, that people don't actually read uh and um And And when I write a book, you know, I I'm happy for people not to like it, but I like them to actually read it before they decide.

[00:41:55]>> Right. These days.

[00:41:55]>> It's similar about a movie. I usually I anticipate, and I have biases also, but I, you know, so I anticipate whether I'm going to like some something based on someone's past work, but I like to give them a chance.

[00:42:07]Yeah, I think we all need to listen a little bit more before we make our judgments. Um which kind of comes to the book, which is this this admission to this phrase of I don't know, and how maybe we need to embrace that a little bit more. Um, honestly, Lawrence, like the evolution of this show was me saying that same thing.

[00:42:27]Actually, usually I put myself in this room with people I don't agree with.

[00:42:31]I've had people I fundamentally disagree with everything they said. Sometimes I can barely sit in the seat.

[00:42:35]But I found sometimes, 2 years later, that I agree with them now.

[00:42:40]>> Yeah.

[00:42:40]>> And so it was allowing that open mind to say, "I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong."

[00:42:45]Tell your ego to shut up for a bit.

[00:42:46]Listen to someone, and actually let it soak in as opposed to the headline of what they are.

[00:42:53]And so this book, The Known Unknowns: Unresolved Mysteries of the Cosmos, you're trying to get people to embrace this concept of not knowing, and then opening the mind to discover. Well, that's how we I mean, it's it's talked about It uses the title, by the way, The Known Unknowns in the UK, not in the US. I know. I heard about it.

[00:43:10]Tell us why. I love this that that that Yeah, cuz it's, you know, it's it's a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, which one of the It was a really intelligent thing.

[00:43:17]He said, "I'm not a fan of Donald Rumsfeld." Let me make it clear. But he talked about, you know, the known unknowns in terms of the Iraq War.

[00:43:24]There's the things we And then the known unknowns are things we know we know, the known unknowns are things we know we don't know, and the unknown unknowns, which are things we don't know we don't know. Now, as a scientist, by the way, the most interesting thing is the unknown unknowns. But if I want I want to write a book on that, it'd be a very short book. Right. But But But what we can say is we know it is we know what we don't know, which is fascinating, cuz that's what drives scientists. That's what drives scholars. That's what drives many people.

[00:43:50]So, saying I don't know recognizes what remains to be known, and encourages you to learn about it. It encouraged me as a young man was when I finally realized that not everything was known in science. I talk about that when I think it was when Richard Feynman wrote a book, The Character of Physical Law, when I finally realized, "Gee, that's not all known. It wasn't all done 200 years ago by dead white men. It was you know, there's a lot left to learn." And um and that should should spur us all on.

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