Episode 46: Expat vs Immigrant: What It’s Like to Be a Refugee in Europe with Sabrine Ingabire

本站添加: 2026-05-08

[00:00:00]But I always think, would you fight for me? Because I'm going to fight for you.

[00:00:04]And if you can't find at least two people who would fight for you as well, I think that's worth fighting for.

[00:00:09]That's worth continuing for.

[00:00:15]Hi and welcome to another edition of Oh my god, I want to say Dips podcast because my friend Sabrine Eig is here. But no, welcome to No Boundaries, the podcast. This is my podcast and this is the black girl magic edition and I'm so happy to speak with another beautiful, incredible black magic girl. Her name is Sabrin Egabir.

[00:00:38]She is a Rwanda Belgian writer and journalist. She wrote a beautiful book in the Dutch language that we share with uh with the Belgians, part of Flemish language, and it's called Lanote. I'm going to talk to her about, of course, all sorts of stuff, but especially about being a black woman in this world.

[00:00:57]Sabrine, welcome.

[00:00:59]>> Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:01:01]>> So nice to talk to you. We haven't spoken in a while. We know each other privately. You worked a lot with us with Dips House podcast. You were also an editor-inchief for a big, you know, online magazine also in the Netherlands and Belgium. Lilit. I mean, we'll get into your career. First I want to know your beautiful book in Flemish and Dutch. How would you yourself if you are going to work on a translation? What what do you what are you thinking of a title?

[00:01:29]>> I I don't know. So, as I was telling you, the Flemish House of Letters, I don't know if that's the good translation, but like the federation that's the institution that does translations, they call it Companions in Fate, which I think is a little bit accurate because it's like the literal translation, but I think that when you hear lot in Dutch, there's also like a negative connotation to it. It is not just fate in a positive way. There's also, you know, the the bad things that you can share based on shared attributes. And I don't think there's a good name for that. I've been thinking about it for a long time. And I think they they might just have to change it entirely if they want to find something that's catchy and really, you know, encompasses everything that the book is about.

[00:02:18]>> And especially because what I love about I think it's a beautiful title in a Dutch language language. It's one word.

[00:02:25]I think that's so strong. So powerful.

[00:02:27]One of words that encompass so much.

[00:02:30]>> Exactly.

[00:02:31]>> Yeah. We'll get into that more. I want to I always start at the beginning. Uh Sabrine, you were born in a beautiful country, East Africa, Rwanda with a I mean, one of the most beautiful countries I think. I've not been in Rwanda myself. I've been in Uganda. I've been on the east side. I am originally from the west side. My father from Camru. I know the east side is extremely beautiful. I've been in Kenya and I've been in Uganda. You left the country not by your own chores at a young age, but what are your let's start with the peaceful, beautiful, like sensitive memories?

[00:03:07]>> Yeah. Memories you have of Yeah. being there until like four, four and a half in your country.

[00:03:13]>> That is such a good question because if I'm honest, people never really ask refugees about their beautiful memories.

[00:03:20]And I also tend to remember the more painful ones because when you're so young, I think that like it's the painful things that really stick to you.

[00:03:29]So, let me think. I remember that my family at some point all kind of lived together in the same house. And that's something that I've been missing a lot.

[00:03:41]You know, when you all flee, first of all, you don't even flee at the same time. And even if you flee at the same time, you often don't arrive at the same time and not even necessarily in the same place, right?

[00:03:54]So my family ever since we fled the country all in different years actually um we haven't lived in the same house.

[00:04:02]It's something that I describe in the first chapter of Venote that family parties are kind of the only moments when everybody's together and then they sleep over and then it's like you feel like this community again. But one of my best friends who's Kenyan, she gets to go back home because she's not a refugee. There's not all of this trauma and also just the danger in general that refugees have with the concept of going back home. And her family, they all have this compound where everybody has a house and they don't always all live there, but there's just the idea that they get to come back and live together.

[00:04:37]That's something that I miss because I remember I did have that when I was younger. And that's I think one of the most beautiful things that I remember about a home.

[00:04:46]>> That's that's a beautiful memory. And the compound I yeah same my father's house was the same in Kumba like a city in in Cameon where everybody would just be there and stay there and and inherent togetherness that is the basis right of >> I think also East African culture family culture that there is the basis is that you're communal. That's also what I got, you know, from your book, that community sense >> that is kind of a given. There's no questions asked, right?

[00:05:17]>> Yes. And also just if we were to put it into this wider political um context that we live in, right? The I think one of the reasons why so many of us are struggling is because capitalism and colonialism and you know all the isms they divide us when all we need is actually each other. I think that if we were all to get back to this communal sense of I need you, you need me. Let's take care of each other. I think that a lot of, you know, the oppressive systems would fall. And so that's something that I'm really missing as well when living when living here at home.

[00:05:52]>> Yeah. Cuz now your home is Belgian.

[00:05:55]>> Mhm. So in what sense is it a home?

[00:05:57]Because I know you've also kind of like, you know, you've been here to United States as well. You've been to other places. Have you made a decision now?

[00:06:05]because I think it's the first time I I hear you say home about Belgium. That's interesting because I h I was counting recently and I think I've lived in maybe 20 houses ever since I've been born that like as really lived in those were my places of residence which is a lot because I'm 30 right and I was really thinking about what is home indeed and I think that this is the first time this apartment that I live in is the first time that I really feel like I'm rooted somewhere because all Those moves were always happening in situations of crisis. Even this apartment, I moved here because I quit my job because of the results of racism. I was heartbroken. And then I decided to go back home. And the idea of home wasn't necessarily Belgium. The idea of home was my grandma lives here, my my auntie lives here, my mother now as well, but also my best friends, you know, the people that I grew up with, they also live here. So I thought, let me go back to these people who are going to feed me if I'm ill. Something like that. You know, I had a community in the Netherlands as well, but I think there's just something different when your mother, like the the the woman who raised me, my auntie, when she comes home and she just brings you like food for two weeks. And so I decided to go back home. But because it was a situation of crisis, you realize that you kind of put your furniture, you just find a good spot and you don't think about it because you're so busy with the everyday day-to-day life, having to work, all of those things. And this and after staying here for three years, it's the first time that I actually reorganized my house. I reorganized my furniture. I instead of thinking about um what's super practical for the short term, I thought why do I want to stay here for the next 10 years and it was the first time that I got to do that and I think it was really also the first time that I thought oh I'm really home because I had never stayed somewhere for more than three years before.

[00:08:06]>> Wow. So and you love you I I can I wanted to give compliment you. It looks already so beautiful from here the space really. Ohio, >> right? I can tell. And you're shining.

[00:08:16]You are shining cuz the last time I saw you was in Amsterdam. I mean, you're always beautiful, >> but I can see there's like I mean, you're working very hard. You set your tires. You're working on grants for your next book, but there I also see you're also shining.

[00:08:30]>> Thank you. I think there's been a lot of growth in the past years about, you know, who I am and what the world is and what we need to be also as a society.

[00:08:39]So, I think I've definitely grown a lot.

[00:08:41]>> Yeah. I can't even imagine what it must be like being 30, which is such a pivotal important age for a woman in this political climate. One of the things that kind of like holds me together is I'm like my grandmother would always say, you know what, at least I'm older now.

[00:08:59]>> I can handle a lot of stress and cuz you know, I had really good 20s. I had very good 30s but now to be 30 in this and I mean so we're not to go into a lot of trauma but you as you said you're a refugee you went through a lot so what is holding you because you already mentioned our ultra capitalist and every climate we live now in we're in wars it's just horrible how are you keeping this together what is your advice to other black women because we also I' also have listeners in African countries I've listen have listeners in Arabic country. I'm so proud of my international audience. What are we saying to all US black women in the whole diaspora?

[00:09:41]I'll be honest with you and I'll I will say that these times are really bleak and I think it is really like a difficult time to be a a woman to be a black woman specifically and an African woman on top of that. I mean there's just even more political barriers that come that come with that. What keeps me standing is I think we have to and this is not like this is not a revolutionary idea. I mean it is an absolutely revolutionary idea. It's just not my idea. It's things that Octavia Butler have said in the past as well. We need to be able to imagine a future that's better than this. We have to always keep in mind what it is that we're fighting for. Um and as I said, I think what it should be is community. I think we should be fighting for each other. We should be fighting for finding ways that care, communal care is central in our lives to make that come back. So I think that if if we can still find the hope, if we can still think of a better tomorrow, then we can fight for a better tomorrow. And I I think that in all of the bleakness, finding people who believe the same things, you know, who have the same principles, who also believe in the irreducation of, you know, oppressive systems, those are the people who are going to keep you standing. So when I'm looking at my friendships and at my at at the people around me, I often think, would you fight for me? You know, we often joke about race wars and whatnot. Those are always memes, though, so there's it's not for real. But we we do see that there are wars going on right now. The bigger wars with bombs, but also the wars on poor people and trans people and queer people and black women and all of the things black men as well. Um and especially black trans women, please.

[00:11:35]You see that there's so many wars happening at the same time. And so when I pick my people, I always think, would you fight for me because I'm going to fight for you. And if you can find at least two people who would fight for you as well, I think that's worth fighting for. That's worth continuing for.

[00:11:52]>> That's beautiful. Yes. Beautiful lesson.

[00:11:55]>> Can I ask you something as well?

[00:11:58]>> How is it for your for your daughter?

[00:12:00]How how does she look at the world?

[00:12:02]>> Yeah, it's um it's not easy, right? I mean, she is really busy now with school because she has a double major, film and psychology. So she's working very very hard. Um so that keeps her sort of like you know busy. Plus I have to say New York City is is is yeah it's a different beast. I mean you've been here >> she she has a very strong gay community around her. Strong gay black community around her. She has a lovely girlfriend with like a supportive family as well.

[00:12:35]We of course you know she has us. So, um, she is, I could say, a little bit in happy, hardworking denial.

[00:12:43]>> Yes.

[00:12:44]>> Which I want her to be at 22, you know.

[00:12:46]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, I always say that a lot of black people, and of course, your daughter is mis is mixed race, but is also very much aware, I think, and and visibly not white. Um, I think that for us, we often don't get this kind of innocence, you know, like the innocence to forget that the world isn't perfect. We we never really get that. So, I I'm always happy when I meet a 25-year-old who doesn't know anything about politics. I'm like, good for you.

[00:13:16]Like, black woman who doesn't know anything, I want you to know less.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah. No, I mean, she knows a lot.

[00:13:23]unfortunate she knows a lot but she is in a happy she can put her head in the sand >> you know what I mean >> she can switch it off >> that's beautiful that's healthy so speaking of that innocence because I think that's a beautiful segue to your to your you know because you you literally said one of your identities is being a refugee that's for always imprinted and that's what your book is about that's what a lot of your work is about >> and you had to experience that at a very young age, right?

[00:13:55]>> So without having I don't want you to feel that you have to explain everything and go through a journey and trauma. No, you know, at some point people hopefully in who who speak English will read your book. But tell me about what it did to you. How were you? Because you were a child, you know, living and born at the cusp of a very difficult period, of course, in Rwanda, like right after right after the the biggest horrors. You have a few happy memories, your family togetherness. Did you have ever experienced innocence before you had to flee as a little girl just playing innocent?

[00:14:32]>> I definitely did get to experience some form of innocence. Um I will always say that when it comes to refugees, it's often the more privileged people who get to flee. Um the less privileged they actually die. So my family was privileged and because of this I think I still managed to experience some form of innocence cuz we still had a house for example, you know, for a long period of time. Uh I I was in love with my neighbor. Uh, I was in love with uh my neighbor. His name was Hakeim. I was completely obsessed with that boy. I do not remember what he looks like, but I know that I got to be in love when I was just a child and I think that's beautiful. Uh, and uh I got to trick the our maid into going to the market instead of going to school. Like we had a new maid and she was tasked to bring me to school and my family told her h is incredibly smart. I know she's only three years old, but she's she's only three years old, but she's gonna bring her to the to to to her school, don't worry. And I didn't want to go to school, so I brought her to the market and I made her walk around for like hours before she was like, "Where are we going?" And then she had to bring me back home. Um, and I think the biggest form of innocence or like the biggest example of it is that even though the wars were technically over, um, there were still some explosions in my neighborhood. Um, and as a kid, I thought that they were fireworks.

[00:16:10]So, I would go happily I would I would go happily to my family and be like, "Oh my god, there's, you know, there's fireworks and there's things happening."

[00:16:19]And my family was always so negative about it. And it took me, I think, 10 years to realize that the reason why they were negative is not because they're negative people, but it's because actually they were there were explosions. And it was very scary. And I think that I think that that shows that a child will try to find joy anywhere at any time. Um and I will always say that I would al also say that I was very loved. You know I think that community saying I was the oldest grandchild still am of course >> number one the first baby. the first baby and and my grandma apparently adored me and I was I was very much surrounded by loving aunties and uncles who took care of me growing up. So there was definitely something. It's just you know there's the duality of having to say as a child there were explosions and I thought they were fireworks. you know that that's something that my my classmates never went through and it's something that is just very difficult to explain and that's also why you know bringing going back to my book my book um is of course not a not a biography it's not an autobiography and my main character grows up in a f in a refugee family but she herself was born in Belgium and every time people ask me if the book is based on my life I think but you know I'm a refugee and you know that she isn't. And this distinction in and of itself could not make this book about me because our lives are by definition completely different because she does not have to talk about this duality of thinking that fireworks are fun but actually they're bonds you know. No, it's a gift to the reader that you give them that perspective actually of oh, she doesn't know. That's actually >> let them know.

[00:18:12]>> Yeah, it's a beautiful gift to the reader.

[00:18:15]>> So, at four and a half coming because there's two things I want because um how was it for you to be all of a sudden surrounded by white people? Because I remember when I was a 16, I was in Cameroon for the first time for like a month, six weeks, like the whole summer vacation.

[00:18:32]>> And when I came back to the Netherlands, I was like in shock looking again at white faces. It was really like, oh my god, I was so used to round faces, round noses. All all I could see was like this weird like translucent skin, the big those huge noses. I remember being like, "Oh my god, you know, no softness, no warmth." It was how n really maybe you know just speaking of innocence how was that for you as just like a little girl to all of a sudden come on you know I don't know where you arrived on a airport or and like in the city you know and like see those big Belgian big nosed faces will be honest with you I do not remember what it was to see all these white people I do remember the racism though I remember the first time they were racist and I thought why would you be racist you know like I'm cute I'm smart and I'm funny already I also think this today when I when I experience racism I always think how dare you >> um but I I remember and I I don't know if growing up privileged in Wanda meant that I had already seen white people regularly I don't think so I do think that I grew up in like a very very black environment. But I do know that for me the idea of white people was not weird.

[00:19:58]It's being confronted to whiteness and what whiteness does namely this like white supremacist to racism.

[00:20:06]That was very weird. And I also did not understand what was happening. Now I now at least I have the words right. as a kid you're four, you're five because I was four and a half but it definitely continued for a long time. I'm suddenly getting bullied for the first time in my life. I don't have friends and I do not understand how that's happening. How that is and speaking of innocence because you know that really as I had the same I I was teased because I lived in white environments first in Russia and then in the Netherlands. So, I didn't have innocence in that sense because from the the moment I could talk and interact with kids, >> even grown-ups, I could see, but I, you know, they Russians don't really look friendly anyway, usually because they always are serious. It it's a form of respect, right?

[00:20:53]>> So, it's not normal for Russians to like to walk on the streets and smile at you.

[00:20:57]They think that's kind of I think that's weird if you do that.

[00:21:00]>> Uh, but kids, soon as I started playing with kids, I experienced racism. And that was like, yeah, at three, you know, playing on the playground.

[00:21:07]So that really takes away your innocence.

[00:21:11]>> It absolutely does. And also because it it starts this question that kind of never ends, which is are you treating me this way because of the color of my skin. And I don't like the color of my skin actually because of me being black because that's like a bigger political context than just the skin color. Are you treating me this way because I'm black or are you treating me this way because you don't like me? Because there's nothing wrong with not liking me, right? Even as a kid, I also bullied a bunch of white kids after a while, you know, but it's because I didn't like them, not because they were white. And so, and so even today, I realized that when bad things happen to me interpersonally, but also on an institutional level, I have to then ask myself, is it because is it because I am talking to these people when they're having a bad day? Is it because this person doesn't like my vibe? Or is it because I'm a black woman? And I find that to be exhausting.

[00:22:08]>> It's exhausting. Yeah. As Tony Orin said, it's the biggest distraction. It distracts you from everything. It's a huge distraction that takes such a toll.

[00:22:18]And that's why I have these conversations because we have to speak about it. And we have to take care of ourselves. you know, self-care, like you said, having your beautiful space, having your home, something like I said to you before we started recording, I've really made my world a lot smaller and my career a lot smaller because it's so safe. I'm allowed to do that now. I can also with technology, that's such a privilege that I can keep it safe and small.

[00:22:43]>> Hi, I hope you're enjoying this episode.

[00:22:45]And this episode is made possible by Ajet Coaching. Yes, my own coaching service. Ajet is a West African word for togetherness. And after years of creating conversations about all sorts of topics about race, about relationship, about parenting, about culture, I want to work together with you to help you stand in your light.

[00:23:09]Because maybe you're working on your next steps after becoming a mom or after menopause. Maybe you are facing some difficulties at work, trying to navigate through complex systems that were not built for us. Maybe you're having issues with your relationship, with your family dynamics, or maybe you just want to see yourself more clearly. For all those things, I got you. Because as an ICF, certified life coach, I'm here to help you. For instance, with communication skills. You know, how can you speak even more clearly, maybe sometimes hard to the matter, but always soft to the person without losing yourself? And how do you navigate through those difficult, sometimes intricate, maybe even, you know, borderline racist spaces without shrinking yourself? That's where I come in. So, if you are ready to work with me together on yourself, please book a free consultation. click on the link below and uh enjoy the rest of the episode >> and knowing which people are going to shop for you and also which institutions you can work with and in which way because I think that white institutions will always disappoint you eventually.

[00:24:21]But I think that when you're older and you know what you can expect from them and what they can expect from you, it creates these beautiful boundaries where maybe you can even navigate yourself through that for multiple multiple years before there's even a problem. But when you're young and finding out about all of this, it hurts you so much. I I know that it hurt me so much when I was younger and I was disappointed by institutions that I thought were going to be, you know, my jobs forever, for example.

[00:24:48]>> Yeah. No, let's get into that because um you are very smart. So, you were always really good at school. You you know, but how did your smartness, you know, did your intelligence, how was was it able to protect you? because from a young age you've done extremely well and even when you started to working with those institutions unfortunately the racism you know came smack at you literally in the guts we we'll get into that but you got incredible opportunities right I really thought she's part of the change so tell me about your intelligence and that journey um my intelligence how did it protect me well first of all I will always say intelligence can never protect you unfortunately because it's the master's stools in it and the master sto tools cannot dismantle the master's house but I will say that it gave me a lot of privilege um when I was younger I got to understand the dynamics as I said when I arrived I was confused but very quickly I started understanding okay when I do this they treat me this way when I behave like that they treat me this way so I understood that I had to assimilate very quickly And I did that. I learned to speak French with a French accent.

[00:26:05]Then I learned to speak a flawless Dutch as soon as we moved to Flanders. I learned to speak English because my aunt and my uncle who were raising me, my uncle is Nigerian. Uh they used to speak English when they didn't want us to understand what they were saying. So as soon as I was younger, I was I thought I'm going to learn this language that you cannot hide anything from me. So I from a very young age I realized oh when I'm smart people are nicer to me. And sometimes they're even just nice to me.

[00:26:36]And so um that can sometimes be a trick because when somebody is nice to you because you're a smart black person, you don't expect them to then be racist later on, but then sometimes they are and then you're like, "Oh I thought we were friends." But so but so I very much realized that that was the case and I very much weaponized that and I'm also made it into my identity. Being smart became my identity. Um and even to this day you know I will sometimes talk about uh the things that I have achieved because I know that it will make a person treat me differently. I know that I then don't have to to prove myself anymore because I have achieved all of those things that so many people have not been able to achieve and might never be able to achieve. So I think in that sense, you know, intelligence can be a privilege and it can also be something that tricks you into being comfortable because you think you've made it, right?

[00:27:32]You are in all of these spaces. You are getting these opportunities. I think I've deserved all of those opportunities that I was given. and I've fought very hard for them. But you are in this space with all of these people and you are always the only one and at some point you might get safe being in that space and that and they will always find a way to remind you that you actually aren't really safe. So >> your presence >> it's your presence is always subjective and dependent upon Yeah.

[00:28:01]>> It's always dependent on their goodwill.

[00:28:04]It's always dependent on their goodwill.

[00:28:06]are you good enough to be in that space that day? Whereas, you know, some random white guy named S could be mediocre. You know, I've had colleagues and I've had a lot of racist colleagues. Um, and I've had a lot of very smart racist colleagues as well, but I've also had mediocre white people who had opportunities that I could only dream of. And where I was, for example, you know, when you are a young journalist, if you want to have like a permanent contract, you have to work so hard for it. And I worked so hard for it. I had to prove myself in so many ways. I speak three language languages fluently. I write three languages fluently. I know everything about, you know, European, African, um, American politics because I I had to know all of those things. And then you're talking to some guy who's like 40 and you're like, "Oh, how did you get your your contract?" And he's just telling you, you know, I walked in and I applied and they gave it to me.

[00:29:06]And you think, >> "Yeah, >> what how is that even possible?" And of course, I understand how white supremacy works and all of those things, but it's just that like being being smart, I think, is a privilege. Um, but it can also get very exhausting.

[00:29:24]>> I understand. So let's get into it because you're alluding to it. So we're there now >> for that's for the transition. um you got at a young age to work for one of the you know first in Belgium for a really good newspaper like the intellectual newspaper but also in the Netherlands which >> at itself as a Belgian is very difficult right so we share the same language but culturally the Dutch really think they're you know intellectually above Belgium even though they adore it's like the typical Dutch exoticism you know discrimination so they love Belgium literature they love Belgium music you know Shak Brown everybody adore him, whatever. But the Dutch still think they're better, right? Intellectually superior.

[00:30:06]>> So for Belgians to really get an amazing career in the Netherlands is difficult.

[00:30:11]There are exoticized, you know, if they make music, if they come in talk shows and can with their beautiful Flemish accent or language, they're allowed to kind of like, you know, it be part of the culture next to it. But to become a serious journalist at the Dutch intellectual newspaper, which is in itself really difficult for women, for women of color, for Belgian men, for Belgian white men, and you as a very young in your 20s black Rwanda Belgian beautiful woman got that chance.

[00:30:46]The dream, right?

[00:30:48]>> It seemed like the dream for sure. And I will actually say that for a long time it was the dream. Take me to that moment because you lived the dream and literally I I knew you then I knew about you then. We were all so excited like oh yes she's doing it. I remember you know my dips colleague and you know her so well. She's also a mentor of you at B.

[00:31:07]Literally we were both like like oh my god she's you know and we thought that meant we knew the woman who hired you.

[00:31:15]We thought that meant the person. Let's just say the person. Uh we thought that meant protection.

[00:31:21]Yes. Okay. So I will say this. Um I will say that I always think that I fought really hard for my uh opportunity. So I don't like to talk about given a chance, right? What I will say is that the community that I had was a huge privilege. If we're talking about for example, like the reason why I got to that newspaper in the first place is because she made the book and that got attention from um from this uh from Dasm, you know, this publishing house who took me on their writer's residency even though I told them I can't afford it. So they were like, okay, we'll make an exception for you. You don't have to pay. And there I met some journalists.

[00:32:04]And the journalist said, you're a really good writer. you should come work for us and then I went to work for them. But it all started with Aist making that book right with Sharif. But I will I only talked to Abby at the time. So for me, she's the one who made the book. But also um she made the book and because she made the book, I got to have this little community in the Netherlands even before I arrived.

[00:32:31]>> Even before I arrived, I had people who were rooting for me. And so when I when I was given this opportunity or when I fought and gots and won this opportunity, I had the preparation >> preparation meeting opportunity, right?

[00:32:46]You were prepared.

[00:32:48]>> I was very prepared. Absolutely. I had already published a book when I was just a teen, you know, like I I was they were lucky to have me and I was lucky to do it. But I think the the bigger luck, the bigger privilege is that I got to touch down in Amsterdam and I already had three people who had reached out. Do you want to have coffee? Let's have dinner.

[00:33:09]Simil is coming. I'll take you to her lecture and then afterwards we can have we can have dinner. And these people very much guided me into understanding the Netherlands and into understanding the the position that I had when I arrived at that newspaper. And I think it is hard to break through serious journalism as a Belgian, serious Dutch journalism as a Belgian. And at the same time, there is a thing that happens when you are black where the people from your own country will not recognize your abilities as much as they will recognize the abilities of a black person from another country because the black person from the other country will not be as critical of this own country as the person from their own country. So there is a reason I think that I was not given or I was not even given the opportunities to prove myself in that same way in Belgium as I was in the Netherlands because I think I am the I think the Dutch thought I would be more inoffensive not being Dutch but they were very wrong because I'm a very critical person but also because I had this community of people who were telling me Sabrin this is these are the things that we are going through and these are the things that we would like you to address in your work. Um, did I even answer your question because I I just really wanted >> you to stay there.

[00:34:40]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:34:41]>> Good. Go on. Go on. So, yeah, like you said, it was it so the question was like, okay, you know, take me on the journey and you are taking me on that journey.

[00:34:50]>> You were prepared for it and they >> underestimated your toughness, right?

[00:34:55]They thought, "Oh, nice soft." Because just for our context, for our listeners, uh, Belgians are, we think the Dutch think Belgians are like the softer version of the Dutch people.

[00:35:06]>> Yes. And I think, uh, countries in general prefer uh uh, strangers of color instead of their own people of color.

[00:35:17]with such a good point that in the Netherlands like lots of African-American, you know, artists are are invited, get subsidies, are are are lauded, they deserve it. Like amazing, fantastic. But for us ourselves who are living in there, well, who used to live there, it's you don't you hardly get the same recognition. You >> Exactly. And I think I think also because I'm Belgian, they might have thought, "Oh, Sabrine will continue criticizing uh Flemish media like I was already doing and she'll continue saying that Belgium is racist." But then I arrived in the Netherlands and I was like, "Well, well, well, this country is racist, too."

[00:35:59]>> And so they were and they were not they were not appreciative of that at all because what do you mean we take you in and then you criticize us? But, you know, I think that criticizing an institution, a person or um or a country is a is an act of love. And I hate that people who are racist do not recognize that because if I didn't love you, if I didn't want you to get better, I would literally just dip. I would not be spending my time doing this at all. Um but so that journey was that basically that's what happened. I I arrived. I claimed my opportunities. I got a contract very soon and I think I was only 23 at the time. I think I was the youngest person working there with like with a permanent contract. And then I started complaining and not about them but about the systems that they're a part of. And as soon as I did that, I became the enemy. Um I became the enemy. And I think, you know, um, it's kind of like, I think when you're adopted by somebody and then you go and you criticize them, they don't appreciate that at all because they did something for you. They're trying to save you. They're giving you this opportunity. Nobody else gets given this opportunity. How dare you say that we are racist. But how can I say that we're not racist when I'm the only black like doskinned black person working in this space that writes about this country and determines the way that we think about the world and about this country and about our neighboring countries. Every single day I walk in and you know the question you asked about how was it arriving from Wanda to Belgium and seeing all of these white faces. I don't remember that. But I do remember how many times afterwards I arrive into a space and I only see whiteness and I don't and it shouldn't be only whiteness because I think a newspaper should be at least representative for, you know, the country that it's representing. I cannot be the only black person. And I and if we're completely honest, me as a Belgian should not even be here before you're hiring a bunch of black Dutch people to come talk about, you know, write about Dutch black people and Dutch white people, all Dutchness, the whole Netherlands. And so they did not appreciate that at all. And as soon as they realized, oh, she is not inoffensive, they became offensive as well. They went on the offensive. And I managed to stick it out for I think three or four years because no matter how racist they might be or they might have been and they were very racist, I still got to do my job. I still got to interview anybody I wanted to interview.

[00:38:47]Any story that I wanted to write, I got to write it. Sometimes with needless discussions, Sabrine, um, this Muslim person that you are quoting might not be objective enough. And then you fight and you fight and you fight, but you do get to write the story and you do get to keep the quotes in. Even though maybe you get to you have to change a couple of words to make your editor happy. But the moment that I decided to leave was the moment when my supervisor told me I was not allowed to interview a fellow black woman, a fellow anti-racist black woman. And they thought that I would not be objective enough to do that. And I remember that day I cried during the meeting when they told me this. Mind you, this was a meeting where they they wanted to talk about it as if they hadn't made the decision already. I remember crying so hard because I think I realized I cannot stay here because now I can't even do my job anymore. If if you are going to stop me from interviewing people, then why why why what am I here for? Because the only reason why this place was still appealing to me was that I got to make stories that nobody can because it has the resources that nobody else has. But if I can't do it because I'm not objective enough, then I have to leave.

[00:40:03]And I found that to be very heartbreaking to this day. I find that heartbreaking actually.

[00:40:10]>> It's un unbelievable. And that brings me to this point. Can you explain, And I know you can because you're an incredible writer, this subtle difference of that Dutch, Western European racism versus American racism.

[00:40:26]Because what I have experienced here that if you have that position in America, if you look for you call Hannah Jones, a New York Times writer, you know, she also she fights the incredible good fights and the articles and stuff she writes.

[00:40:41]>> Um, I'm sure she's also tired, >> but there's there's this like at least I don't think her intellectuality is ever questioned here. You know what I mean? I >> like her objectivity.

[00:40:54]>> Yeah. I don't know if the word is Yeah.

[00:40:55]I think they call it object objectivity, but >> but they actually mean intellectual.

[00:41:00]Yeah, that might be a little >> Yeah. Or at least you're because you're an African, you know what I mean? You're not you don't have the Dutch education.

[00:41:08]You don't have the Dutch, you know, cultural context. You know, you're still >> maybe you're >> Yeah, but if you look at I forget her name, but the woman from the Washington Post who got >> fired. So, I think it still happens in the US as well. You know, I think >> No, no, no. Go ahead. Yeah. The difference there is that it's been taken over by this this this, you know, by uh Jeff. So, yeah. Yeah. So, he lit he is so aligned with Trump right now. So, I think but anyway, >> that's true. That's true. That's true.

[00:41:38]Although the New York Times, they're ionists. So, it's like But I think Okay. I think going into like uh Dutch, Belgian, and uh American racism, I will say that when I'm in the US, I am scared in a way that I am not when I am at home. Um I've been I mean I haven't been very far in the US. I've just stayed for longer periods of time in the same places. I've been to New York and Seattle.

[00:42:13]And I will say that there's something absolutely terrifying about seeing like huge police cars. Like why is it so big?

[00:42:23]Why do you all have huge guns? Why are you everywhere? Why are there people with guns in supermarkets? And I think you know when you're aware of all of those like security guards with supermarket uh with guns in supermarkets. And I think you know when uh when you grow up in Europe the the racism that you that you face is very much we could call it subtle. I don't think it's subtle though but it is um and it is harmful as well. It kills as well but it kills uh differently and um first of all more slowly.

[00:43:00]>> Yeah.

[00:43:01]>> And seldom physically. Let's remember, of course, that there's uh black people who are getting killed in Belgium and in the Netherlands by the police as well, but definitely not to the same extent.

[00:43:13]And so, when you grow up here, the racism is your teachers are racist that they and they and they hold you back. Uh they take away your opportunities. They pretend that you're not smart when you are. Uh and then people do not give you houses. People do not give you jobs. And even when they do give you jobs, they treat you like and you have to quit. And you have friends that you think are going to be your friends forever. And then they vote for farright parties and you realize, oh, you only like me but you hate my family. You know, those are the forms of racism that you will experience in Europe that I that I think you also experience in uh in the US. But um but seldom do you as especially as a citizen gets killed by the government. In the US that does happen. And I will I will say that because it happens. It scares me so much more because when I'm walking down the street in Belgium, I know that you might be racist. You might call me the nword and not even blink about it, but you will not draw a gun and shoot me.

[00:44:18]and and that that was that was um when you're politically aware and when you're so aware of all the things that our black American siblings go through, you realize there is such a different kind of danger here. And I am not prepared to handle it because when you grow up in a certain environment, you do learn how to handle the racism. As a European in the US, you don't know how to handle it. But what I think is interesting is that a lot of black Americans are also not adapt or not capable of handling European racism because they don't know how it expresses itself because first of all there's this myth that it doesn't exist. So they arrive here and they're having a good time and after a year they realize wait a second I think this and that was racist as well but it's just it's the same beast but in soies right what I find difficult specifically as a as a refugee is that there is nowhere to escape from that I have friends who are not refugees who are black who can go back to Africa who get really tired and will say, "Actually, I also have brown friends who get really tired and they say, "You know what? I might go back to Morocco. Morocco is not perfect, but it is home. Everybody looks like me and I will be protected." I have black friends who say the same thing.

[00:45:43]I'll go back to Kenya and I'll just live there and I'll be fat and happy and I will never have to be, you know, to be confronted with this specific kind of racism anymore. Me, I can't go back to Rwanda and and be safe in the same way.

[00:45:58]And so I think there's this exhaustion that overtakes you when you realize Europe isn't safe. The US isn't safe.

[00:46:08]And when I go to another part of Africa, suddenly I become this kind of like European black European colonizer maybe.

[00:46:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. Digital nomads, whatever.

[00:46:20]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:21]>> Which is also not somebody who you necessarily want to be. So these I I think when we're talking about, you know, innocence, it's not just for kids. It's also for adults. And when you've lived in so many different places and you know so much so much, you also kind of lose this illusion that there's a place that exists that is safe.

[00:46:45]>> Yeah. No, >> do you do you share that as well?

[00:46:49]because I know that I see these these black Americans talk about Europe and I think I'm so happy you think that things are great here. I I'm really happy for you that you still have this hope >> and yeah I mean they are they are treated more like expats right >> but just like you said >> first year for it's just like with a bad relationship the beginning is always great right you get love bombed you get love bombed and it's like you said it's a in in in what I've experienced in the Netherlands or in Europe it's a slow erosion literally from the inside like literally what you said you have great friends you talk to them and you realize like while they're having dinner, white people who voted for like extremely racist parties that literally support legislation that is against people who look like us and they're just saying it out loud because for their special interest they're voting that party. That's that's just shocking and they and they still want to be your friend, right?

[00:47:42]>> Of course, >> it's it's a slow erosion and yeah, like you see like and like in the Netherlands it's really normal. I remember I worked for a for a TV company and then the B who gets money from the government, right? the Dutch TV, they get money from the government. And he literally said in an interview like, you know, with with no shame. Well, it's just like the numbers in the in Netherlands, 20% of the people work for us are of color. So, but he was counting not journalists and people who make programs. No, he was counting also the cleaners, the people work in security and the people who work in the kitchen because the people who were working in TV, there was only three or 5% and 50.

[00:48:18]>> Of course. Of course.

[00:48:19]>> Right. So, we're working menial jobs, which I have a lot of respect for, but that doesn't mean that we could influence the programming. And like you said, if you're only one, if you're only two or three, you're not going to make it. You're going to get tired because the buckets can be filled with like a big splash of water of pain and racism, but also in drops. And what you experience was in drops in four or five years that even the work became impossible. And that is what happens a lot in the Netherlands. Whereas in America, they're so afraid also to be sued. And you know, there's legislation.

[00:48:53]I mean, it's changing now, but it used to be more that legislation was at least a little bit on your side, right? If you can prove factually racism, there's a factual line in the law in the United States, race, racism. And if you can prove that, that's it. The company is is up. You'll still lose your job.

[00:49:13]You shall get money, right? You'll take money with you, whatever. And people aren't afraid of that. And there's a little bit more power by numbers. You know, at the New York Times, Nicole Hannah Jones is not the only one.

[00:49:25]>> Exactly. Exactly. I think I think when we when we look at the power here also, we are taught that we have none. Racism is illegal. Racism is illegal. Which is why to me it was wild that I decided to quit because they told me you cannot interview anti- black anti-racists because that became the thing. You cannot interview black anti-racists. And I thought, well then there's no black people left. But also everybody should be an anti-racist.

[00:49:56]Racism is illegal. I am lucky that I studied law. So when I quit that job, I didn't just quit, you know, I went through this whole legal thing. They gave me damages for racism because I was going to sue them. And I don't think I would have gotten like a shitload of money like in the US, but it would have hurt their reputation and it would have taken a toll on me. So, so that's also why we needed to settle, right? So, but the thing is when I talk about other people who've gone through similar things, who had to quit their job because of racism, they didn't do all of those things because they don't realize that we also have protections here. And I think the US, we can make fun of this uh society of suing, but I think it's good to sue people. I think I think more black people here should sue people. I think I tell black women to sue people all the time. and Anushia, I get a lot of things done by threatening to sue because I know my rights and I think we don't know our rights. We don't know how far it goes. We don't know what we're what we're allowed to claim and what they're allowed to do to us in the US.

[00:51:10]You know, I was looking at this, you know, there's this case of these people who wanted to buy a house and they were told that the house was sold because this white person didn't want to sell them the house. It was a black couple, but then they wanted to sell it to a white couple or whatever, and then the black couple sued the seller of the house. I think that's incredible.

[00:51:29]>> I think here, if you don't get the house, you just go home and you cry about it and then you think, "Shit."

[00:51:35]Whereas we should all, I think, learn this from black Americans. Let's sue.

[00:51:41]Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens because maybe we'll get it. I've sued institutions and won.

[00:51:47]>> Yeah. because why not? Because I know my rights. But I studied law. A lot of people didn't. And also, I was always very argumentative and a lot of people aren't. And so, um, so I think that might also be like one of the ways that racism expresses itself in the fact that at least a lot of black Americans do grow up knowing that they are allowed to sue and that they are allowed to ask for more. And we are told that we need to be grateful for everything that we have. Yeah.

[00:52:17]>> Or otherwise we need to go back to where we came from.

[00:52:20]>> Absolutely. It's of course also different history, right? They've been here not by their own choice but at least for 300 years we quote unquote were allowed in from the 70s last century or we had to leave. So it's it's a different history. And also I think I'm going to look that up because that's interesting also for the newsletter. the margins for suing in the United States for racism >> are clearer are I think clearer defined if I'm not mistaken you should you probably know that then in or at least we have the idea it's not as clear clear divide right like you said we're maybe being gas lit >> so we are being gaslit though because we have institutions that will literally help you and you literally just have to call them and say hey I think I was a victim of racism can we look at it together and they will do that often even for free. And so I think I think one of the things that I taught myself was I did not choose to be here. I want to emphasize that. Um uh you didn't say that by the way, but I want to emphasize that I had to teach myself. I did not choose to be here. Somebody took me, put me on a plane, and brought me here. and that they only did that because Belgium and France and all of the all of Europe if we're honest, but definitely Belgium and France ruined my country and that's the only reason why we had to leave. If I had stayed, I would have had if I had stayed with no war, of course, if nothing had ever happened and we had stayed there, I would have had a very, very happy and very privileged life if we're completely honest. So, I know that you guys took all of this from me and because of you guys, I had to come here.

[00:53:59]And I think knowing knowing that they owe me, knowing that I deserve Belgium as much as a white person and maybe even more because I lost my family to Belgium. I lost my country to Belgium and I lost my home to Belgium. Knowing this, I think, makes me know that I can sue them for literally anything. I might lose, but I will take you down away from me.

[00:54:26]>> Thank you. That is so This is so empowering and I want young women and and women my age, all black women to listen to this.

[00:54:36]>> I want people to understand that as well. And I think that if we did this a lot of, you know, I I am always amazed by acts of resistance, no matter how small, but acts that say I do not accept this situation. You know, there's this rise of the far right. Is it a rise if it's already settled? I don't know. But the far right fascism, they're here, but we cannot fight it if we stay complacent. Right? And so I remember when Witch, the far-right racist in the Netherlands, he posted he posted an Islamophobic uh drawing, I think about a year ago.

[00:55:18]And it's not the first time that this man has said and posted Islamophobic things. And it's unfortunately not going to be the last time. But so many people in the Netherlands, so many Muslim people, black and brown people said, "No, we do not accept you doing that."

[00:55:35]And then they went and they they complained about him officially. They filed official complaints. And I think those moments are beautiful because then you have tens of thousands of people who are officially filing a complaint about a person who has done this in the past and will do this in the future. But it matters to complain still today. And then he had to draw it back. And if we're completely honest, I think his reputation also suffered from it a little bit. We need to know that we cannot stay complacent and that starts with knowing what we deserve for ourselves but also for each other.

[00:56:10]>> Thank you. That's >> sorry.

[00:56:13]>> Stop. Why are you saying story? This is beautiful. Listen, my dear, we're coming to the end of our beautiful conversation. I don't want to take too much of your time. I know you're be you're busy. Uh but this strength, right? Being a black woman and you've had such like you said strong, beautiful aunties, black women around you. Your mom is now your aunt is who's one of your moms is with you now. Your mom is around you. Um how how is that now? Tell me how you feel. How are you being how is the rel what can you share if you want about the relationship with your mothers and the strength as a black woman in that context?

[00:56:50]>> Absolutely. Okay. So I will start with my grandmother who is not my grandmother but is my grand aunt if we're being you know white people practical.

[00:57:02]>> She's the sister she's the elder sister of my of my grandmother who died unfortunately in Rwanda and she is I've I often say that she is one of the people who made me who I am. Um, we are now in a fight. Actually, we've been in a fight for the past four or five months. And I I've told you before we started, right? I told you I've been really sad about it. But one of the reasons why I find it so hard to to stop the fight because stopping fights with with African parents is not very hard.

[00:57:32]You just go, you apologize, and then they'll take you back as long as you apologize and say that you were wrong for everything. But I know that I'm right in this instance. I know that I'm right and I know that she's wrong. So, I'm refusing to apologize and she's refusing to apologize. And it's very sad and at the same time, I think it's very beautiful because she is the person who taught me what was right and wrong. And she's the person who taught me that you never back down when you know you're right. She was a politician and you can very much tell in the way that she is. She's very principled and she taught me to be very principled. So I'm very lucky to have grown up with a woman who taught me what it was to be black and woman and African and strong and irreverent, you know. And then at the same time, the other person who raised me is my auntie who taught me strength in a completely different way.

[00:58:29]She is not as she does not care for politics the same way. I will say that all African parents care about politics because they do nothing but watch the news. They watch the news all the time.

[00:58:42]And my auntie watches the news all the time. So she is political in that sense, but she will not give you the great speeches. She will not uh lead an uprising at her work. She is not that person at all. But she is a person who made sure that her whole family managed to flee to Belgium. As as I said, my mother is the last one to arrive. That was about 7 years ago. You have to understand that it means that my aunt spent 20 years bringing her family back together. She works very hard. She teaches me what it's what it means to work, to take care of people. She teaches me what it means to not care about what people think. You know, she is such a beautiful woman. She works in a hospital. She arrives with the biggest earrings wearing perfume and being dressed like she's going to a wedding.

[00:59:34]And people tell her, "You're so beautiful. Nobody else dresses like you." And she says, "Yes indeed. Yes indeed." And because all of this is impractical, she has to change her clothes. She has to take out her earrings to to do her work, but it doesn't matter because in these 15 minutes before she arrives, she is uh she will look good. And I think people think that being a strong woman means that you have to reject femininity, that you have to be more like a man, that you have to that you'd have to like blue and not pink to make it, you know, to make it shorter and and a bit more absurd.

[01:00:10]And someone like my aunt teaches me that you can be strong and smart and hardworking and feminine as all hell and you care about perfume and you care about what you look for and it doesn't change your strength and it doesn't change how strong you are. And then to finish, you have my mother who I who I I'm still learning how to love properly because when I because I didn't I wasn't raised by her. I didn't grow up with her for a long time. I didn't know where she was. And then suddenly she was there.

[01:00:44]And growing up, people had always told me, "Your mother is the kindest person that you'll ever meet." And I always thought that's something you say about somebody who's not here. Like cuz of course somebody's the kindest when you miss them. But now I've met her and she actually is the kindest person that you'll ever meet. And I think when I think about strength in my mother, I think about two things. I think about the fact that we're a family of alcoholics and she doesn't drink. She's been here for almost 10 years and she still doesn't drink. She will drink her water. She will drink her tea. At at the same time, her brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces are getting drunk and she is just still remaining alcohol-free. I love that. I think that's a beautiful sign of strength. And the second thing is that she actually apologized to me four or five months ago. It was this kind of intergenerational fight. So I had a fight with her. I had a fight with my auntie. I had a fight with my little brother. Everything exploded. Everything exploded. And my mother in the middle of it all sents me this message telling me, "I'm so sorry all of this is happening.

[01:01:54]I'm so sorry that I wasn't there to protect you when you were younger. I'm so sorry that I didn't know about all of these things. and I love you. And I thought, well, I can say I love you back because our family doesn't know how to say I love you. But I I have never gotten an apology um without a butt from any adult in my family. There is no I'm sorry this happened to you, but I couldn't be there. There is no I'm sorry you feel this way, but you need to forgive your grandma because she's old. It was very much a text where it was just an apology the way that you know social media and therapists have told us and taught us to apologize. And I thought I thought that this demonstrate this demonstrates how beautiful and how strong she is much more than any of the stories that my that my uncles and aunties were telling me growing up. Um, so with her, I think I think I'm still learning to love her because I had to accept that I was motherless for a long time in my life.

[01:02:59]So I I'm still struggling with accepting that she's here and that she's here to stay. But the consistence with the consistency with which she is there, she loves me and she tells me that she's there and that she loves me teaches me that she's going to stay and that heals me a little bit. Uh, and I think it also teaches me how to be in the future. Like I I'm learning to say I love you to my family more. And I'm I'm learning to apologize without a butt. It takes a long time, but this is something I'm learning as well. And one day I'll be able to go through a family party without drinking. I think that is incredible. Oh, this is so beautiful. Sabrina, I could talk to you all day. These are >> such beautiful lessons. Your beautiful strength, your resilience, and your power, but also your softness. I see your softness. Like I said, you're shining. You are so on your way, my dear. You are so on your way.

[01:04:02]>> Thank you. I also really wanted to thank you, Anusha, because you know, you asked me for this and I said, "For you anything." And it is true that for you anything because when you were in the Netherlands we never saw each other. Um and when we were in New York I think when when we were both in New York at the same time I think we only saw each other once or twice. But there is this thing that happens with certain women in your life where you know they are always kind of guiding you. You know that they're always a little bit above you and just like watching out for you. And that's a feeling that I always had. You know that you co-published my book. You talk about my book as if it's this kind of like abstract thing that you had nothing to do with but Dips house made the book. It is it is you. It is Madame and Debis. It is not just not only because it's not because I only talked to her that you guys weren't very much involved. So I want to say that you have such a big impact on black women and black womanhood even when you're not in this country. And I really wanted to thank you for that as well.

[01:05:04]>> No, you're the best. And let's talk more offline about your second book.

[01:05:08]Absolutely.

[01:05:08]>> Because I know you had some questions for me once. I'm ready now. So, if you still help, >> absolutely. I will know where to find you. You're still on my list. Don't worry.

[01:05:19]>> Sabrin, thank you so much for this conversation.

[01:05:23]Listeners, please, you know, subscribe to the newsletter. I'm going to put links about Sabrine. She also has a substack that you can please, please people follow her. Where's the most important place people can follow you?

[01:05:34]The substack of >> uh it is the Substack or the Patreon.

[01:05:37]And on Patreon, I also have an option that is just €1 for people who don't have a lot of money.

[01:05:44]>> Beautiful. It will all be in our newsletter. Thank you so much everybody.

[01:05:47]Thank you so much for listening, for watching us. I also want to thank my production manager Sarah Dunov. I want to thank of course my daughter Lulu, Lulu Fif, and Sabrine. I love you.

[01:05:57]>> I love you too. Bye.