Rocco Papalia, the Johnny Pops Hit, & the Papalia Crime Family | Interview with Fmr Undercover

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]Welcome to the Original Ga Gangsters News Network and podcast. I'm your host, Scott Bernstein. We're going uh out to Hamilton, Ontario. For this episode, we're bringing back our favorite retired undercover cop in the history of Canada.

[00:00:17]Uh comes from uh Scotland Yard and uh did a great job undercover in the Hamilton Mafia working the Papalia Brothers.

[00:00:27]and we're bringing Paul Manning on to uh help us with our uh another episode of our life and crime series. And we're going to focus today on Roco Papalia, the last of the Papalia brothers who passed away a couple weeks ago. And uh we're lucky enough to have Paul come on and tell us, you know, straight from the horse's mouth. He was uh in the belly of the beast and undercover with uh Rocco uh in the 2000s. Paul, thank you for joining us. Hey, you're more than welcome, Scott. Good to see it.

[00:00:59]>> Uh, so you know what? I I thought when I um I called you, I assumed that you knew.

[00:01:07]Uh, but I was the one who told you that Rock >> No. Yeah, you you infor you told me he died. I I didn't have a clue. I really didn't.

[00:01:15]>> 90 92 years old.

[00:01:17]>> Is that how old he was? I knew he was in his 90s. He was in his 70s when uh when I was undercover with him. So, um yeah.

[00:01:26]He was around forever. He was working the streets when he was a teenager.

[00:01:30]>> Um I mean he used to bo when I knew him, he used to boast about how he'd never been arrested in 53 years. So it shows you how long he'd been on the street.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah.

[00:01:39]>> You know, uh before we get into a little more detail, you know, give a little basic background. Uh the Papalas are a name in you know Ontario underworld circles that goes all the way back 100 years and um the Papellia brother's dad Antonio Papellia came over uh in the 1910s and by the 1920s he was working directly with Roco Perry who was like the ala propone of of of Hamilton and then >> and then just like we've seen uh it's it's unfortunately it's a cliche that happens to be true you know to become the king you got to kill the king and Roco Perry disappeared in 1944 uh Tony Papalia Antonio and Johnny uh his oldest son were top suspects in that disappearance and then the Papalas rose to uh the forefront themselves uh of organized crime in Hamilton. Rock or uh uh Antonio died of a heart attack in 1964 and at that point Johnny Pops became you know the the godfather if you will or one of the godfathers of that area and he had Frankie Rocco and wasn't there another brother?

[00:03:11]>> Uh Frankie, Roco and Johnny.

[00:03:13]>> Okay. So three okay three main brothers.

[00:03:15]Johnny Johnny was brother, >> James Paley, the enforcer, >> right? So Johnny was the one that got all the headlines.

[00:03:24]Uh, but Rockco and Frankie played a, you know, a pretty significant role and had the same type of reputation. And you went undercover after Johnny Pops had passed. And I think there's this >> notion, I want you to talk about this.

[00:03:40]There's this notion that I'm hoping to dispel from this interview that uh you know once Johnny Pops was gone that the Papalas were done making a living on the street, but they were they were in the mix in in through the 2000s with Rocco and Frankie.

[00:03:59]>> Oh yeah, definitely. There was they were still at it. They were still at it until the day they died, I'm I'm sure. Um Frankie was a driving force between the two of them after Johnny went. They they used to call um Rocky they'd call him the reluctant mobster. I don't think Rocky was ever made uh truly made. I I I don't think it was his thing. Um but uh Frankie was definitely a made guy. And Johnny obviously he got he got killed in um he was murdered back in 1998. So long before I worked on the cover down there.

[00:04:29]Uh but yeah, I used to spend a lot of time with with Rocky uh and occasionally with Frankie. Uh Frankie would turn up every now and again, but it was Rocky I saw almost every day.

[00:04:39]>> And you would So tell us tell us the like the the dayto-day of you being deep undercover and going to spend, you know, hours at a time with with Rocky. Uh where where were you going and uh who what was paint the scene for us. Who else was around?

[00:04:56]>> So they they had a they had a house down on H Street. Uh it used to be a booze can, an illegal drinking establishment.

[00:05:03]Um, we used to go there. They were using it as a meeting room, as a a clubhouse kind of thing. Uh, Rocky would always be there. Uh, Jackie Jackie Balini. Uh, turns out that wasn't his real name. Uh, but, uh, Jackie Buchalini was always there. Uh, Jackie was the one that was was there when Johnny Pale was murdered.

[00:05:22]>> Yeah. Let's get Let's get I'm going to get to that in a moment because I think that's kind of like some kind of groundbreaking stuff that I want you to get into. But let's first just let's first just talk about this this time in the 2000s and then we're going to go back and open that door.

[00:05:38]>> Yeah. So, and then um the only other character I'd see a couple of guys come and go. The only other real character was an indigenous gentleman called uh Henry. Can't remember his surname.

[00:05:49]>> Wilson. Henry Wilson. Henry Wilson.

[00:05:51]>> Henry Wilson. Uh again, you know what?

[00:05:54]Always good with me. Always decent with me. Um I was I was allowed free reign. I could come and go as I pleased. I'd just walk in, grab a drink, sit down, walk out. If I had business to do, I'd do it.

[00:06:04]If I didn't, I'd just leave. Um, there'd be conversation. We we'd chat. Sometimes they'd uh uh they'd not chat too nicely, but uh neither would I. Um and there was there was a lot of ball breaking went on. And it was it was actually it was it was a it was one of the better times working undercover. Um, I'd always head there first when I deployed and then from there I'd go and do whatever else I needed to do, whether it was go and meet with the Hell's Angels or go and meet with uh other members of the Masano crime family or whatever the the plan was for that day. Uh, that's what I'd do. So, I'd go there, get a brandy, sit down, drink, they watch some TV, we talk, and then I'd leave.

[00:06:44]>> What was Rocco like personalitywise? I mean, we say he's, you know, he's been coin the term has been coined reluctant gangster, but how would how else would you say that his uh that what color him up for us? Like what was his his if not for the fact that I already knew who he was? Uh you he was very unassuming. He wasn't um he wasn't aggressive in the slightest. He wasn't uh he wasn't the politest. Um Frankie Pelia, completely different character.

[00:07:14]You knew when he was in the room. Um, but now Rocky had a weird sense of humor. Uh, he'd laugh at the weirdest things. Uh, we do the weirdest things.

[00:07:24]You know what that all those guys just want to make money even when they're they're retired. They've got all those properties. They've got all those those assets uh that have been illegal illegally obtained and they they they still want to make money. They still want to take the risk. Uh, and that's part of the life. I suppose the uh it becomes more of a a thrill than than the actual cash that the the score itself becomes becomes the uh the adrenaline rather than than getting the money and spending the money.

[00:07:52]Uh, so now let's go back a little bit and we're going to get to Johnny Pops's assassination in a moment, but before we hit that, um, there was a scenario before Johnny Pops get got killed, a situation where Rocco's son uh, was causing issues.

[00:08:16]>> Oh, Columbia.

[00:08:18]>> Yeah. and uh the brothers wanted to his brothers wanted to kill his kid and he had to negotiate for his son's life and it ends up with the son being sent to uh South America. I >> I'll be honest with you, I don't think it was much of a negotiation. It was um >> if it if it was was going to happen, it was going to happen. I don't think Rocky would have uh would have stepped in the way. Yeah. I don't know what Rocky Jr.

[00:08:41]did. Uh he did something bad. Uh I don't know whether he stole money or stole drugs or whatever he did. They were they were pissed. They were they were hot.

[00:08:48]Um, and they were they were talking about clipping him. So, um, obviously when you you you kill another family member like that, you get permission off the the dad, which sounds it's the ludic ludicrous most ludicrous thing to say out loud, but that's what they do.

[00:09:05]>> Um, and they went to Rocky and and they came up with another solution. And they sent Rocco down to Rocco Jr.

[00:09:12]>> He went down to Columbia to work with the cartels for a few years.

[00:09:15]uh he came back and he was still a [ __ ] show. So, >> well, but this kind of demonstrates, I think, that Rocky was uh more of a velvet glove uh as opposed to the iron fist that was his brother Johnny. And uh let's segue into the downfall of Johnny Pops.

[00:09:37]And I think there's some revvelatory stuff that you have and I don't know how uh and I I I really appreciate you coming on and sharing it with us. I don't know how much the general public knows this, but it wasn't just you, but it was I had some other people from law enforcement after uh Rocky passed that came to me and felt comfortable talking about it. Now that According to what the crown thinks, even if they didn't charge that, that Rocky Papalia and Frankie Papalia signed off on Johnny's murder. They were aware, definitely.

[00:10:22]Um, that's one of the worst kept secrets. They were definitely aware. Um, I think I want to say Rocky was up in uh Dunurch or Frankie may have been up in Dun Church and Rocky was somewhere else.

[00:10:35]They just they both had really tight alibis that morning. Um and then uh there was of course Jackie who let the guy in, let Kenny Murdoch in who who met sorry he didn't let him in. He he opened the door to him and then told Johnny there was a guy outside waiting for him.

[00:10:50]Johnny went outside and and and Kenny killed him. Um, so I I've I've sat and talked with with Jackie about this and and Jackie was rather drunk at the time and he said some things that that caused me concern that uh that perhaps everybody was aware that it wasn't uh I I I just think that Buffalo decided Johnny had to go. He was getting arrested all the time. He was throwing down all the time and I just think they'd had enough of him. So, >> how I I did a little bit of deep deep diving uh and I mean I knew the basics of of the assassination. Um, but I I I did a little bit more of a drill down and got my hands on some uh uh law enforcement intelligence and talked to some other people and I really got a a better understanding of how it reached the point where Johnny Pops gets uh, you know, marked for death. And it wasn't a and please jump in and correct me if I'm if I'm inaccurate in any of this. uh that it it wasn't a um a split second decision. This was something that bubbled for about two years, two three years. And it all the start of it from what I could gather it could all be traced to a pretty significant loan that was given from the Rudos in Montreal to uh Johnny Carmen Berilaro and uh Mora in Toronto. was like seven, eight million bucks that they took and put into restaurants and clubs and whatever else.

[00:12:37]And Johnny Pops was pretty, I guess, vocal that he didn't feel like he had to pay that money back. And that that the domino effect to that led to a situation where a lot of forces combined against Johnny.

[00:12:58]>> I think I don't I don't know whether that's the case. I I know that Johnny pissed off a lot of people.

[00:13:02]>> Um I mean I I got the story direct directly from one of the brothers and >> Okay, give it hit us with it.

[00:13:09]>> Effectively there was a lot of uh discourse between uh Ruto between Paleas and the Paleas were paying back to to Rudo. They were kicking up at the time.

[00:13:18]Um and the Mustanos wanted in on gaming and gaming is very very lucrative. It's probably the the most lucrative um avenue these people have for making money. The amount of money that these guys make is is crazy. We we thought at one stage they were turning over about $3 million a weekend in in Hamilton alone. So you've got the Masanos, they want they want obviously they want a piece of this pie and and it is gaming was uh Johnny Pelia's thing. That was his thing. So uh Johnny decided to give them a crack and and they did really well by all by all accounts. They got paid up and I mean who's not going to pay? Uh they got paid up, they paid back on time and then obviously >> uh JP Johnny Pelia kicks back to um to Ruto.

[00:14:07]However, this is the story that I've heard of these guys. There was all these debts owing etc. and there was already bad blood in the water between the Rutos and and Johnny. And then um you have uh the Mustanos. They take uh one week and they take the the money up to Ruto directly and drop it off with him and then they go back and they tell Johnny what they've done and Johnny says, "No, no, you give the money to me. I pay him kind of thing cuz Johnny knows he's not going to see this money again." So, he turns around to these guys and says, "You know what? I want the money back."

[00:14:41]Um, bad things are going to happen if you don't give it back. So, um, you've got two weeks of of nervousness on the part of Pat Mang and and in the end we've got him crossing the border.

[00:14:54]I want I think he was shot on the 28th.

[00:14:56]Don't quote me on it, but say he was shot on the 28th of May 1998.

[00:15:01]Um, they crossed the border the night before or two nights before uh into Buffalo. Then they come back the same night. we've got the we've got the records of CBSA records and um then Johnny's killed and we think that's where they went to get permission to uh to clip him and and everyone had just had enough and they said yeah but guaranteed guaranteed that Frankie and Rocky were were made aware guaranteed and and the for Buffalo for a long time the guy that was representing the Tadaros across the border even though lived in Buffalo was Frankie uh Balfalco Butchie Bifocals.

[00:15:43]>> Yes.

[00:15:44]>> And uh I I've you know I I think at least from the '9s forward until he died in 2020 uh you know he if things were being relayed from the Tedaros, a lot of that was coming from Butchie probably.

[00:16:02]>> You know what? Probably. Uh okay. So there's there's a source um he's he was effectively employed by the OP and um he attended the funeral and he said I'll be able to tell you from who's at the funeral who was involved in this homicide and that's what he came back with as well that that this was sanctioned by it was sanctioned by um by New York and um everybody knew so uh everything fit everything fit that he was set up. Um, everyone was aware and he was probably the only one that wasn't aware. Um, and it shows in the fact that I mean, you don't whack a a made guy like um Johnny Pelia walk away scratch free. Uh, and they must tell us nothing happened to them over that homicide, >> right? That nothing happened to them uh from that homicide.

[00:16:59]It bought it bought them a 20 year reign where they had to go do, you know, five, six, seven years in prison. But it it definitely played a role in what happened >> to Pat and Angie in the late 2010s, early 2020s when the Rudos couldn't really have their back anymore because of everything that was going on in Quebec and the stuff they needed to, you know, they had their own their own house was falling apart.

[00:17:27]>> Yep. They could worry about the Masatano's house falling apart.

[00:17:31]>> So he he was killed in o I think October. No, sorry. He was killed in May. May 28th, 1998, I think. Um October. Uh we've got surveillance reports were uh packed. Um two players from uh Bif Focals was there. Uh VTO Ros was there. They all up a restaurant in um not Wateroo, Cambridge, Ontario. So they all went and met in this this restaurant up in Cambridge and they had a meeting there and and unfortunately the the uh the organized crime guys couldn't get years up on them. But uh the meeting was definitely there. it was recorded and um I would imagine they were discussing how to uh to move forward with business and I would imagine that that involved the mustanos but obviously they didn't realize they were going to get arrested.

[00:18:25]What what did you get any um what sense did you get when you were around Rocco Papaya like when the Musatano's names came up? Did these >> never did?

[00:18:37]>> I was very careful uh about talking around these guys. I don't want to erase any suspicions whatsoever for obvious reasons. Um but we used to do work for them. I used to to to do jobs for them.

[00:18:49]Uh there was a contract killing that we we got involved in. Um, and that was a favor for a friend. That wasn't even one of their their their things. Uh, I nearly got married because of Rocco. Uh, it was just anything they could do to make money. Um, they I walk through the door one day. I go and get my brandy.

[00:19:10]The brandy's taken out my hand. Business first. Okay. What have we got going on?

[00:19:14]Uh, you're getting married.

[00:19:15]Congratulations. Oh, what do you mean I'm getting married? I'm not getting married. No, you're getting married. And then they tell me the the scheme.

[00:19:22]There's a a woman, she's uh she's Korean. Uh they own the restaurant um around the corner. They own the building and it was leased to the Korean guy that was running the restaurant. And he wanted to bring his niece over. So they're like, "Yeah, you're getting married to him." I'm like, "Okay, fine.

[00:19:37]Uh how much? Five grand. Okay, I'll I'll do it. Not a problem." And then that caused some problems back at the uh the station. What are you going to do? You can't get married to her, etc. I said, "You know what? They're after a passport. I've already told him I'm here illegally.

[00:19:51]>> So, I left it right till the last minute. That's when I broke it to Rocco and I said, "Listen, why why does she want a passport? Why does she want a British passport?" He's like, "You stupid. She wants a She wants a Canadian passport.

[00:20:02]>> I'm not Canadian." And they all look at each other and go, "Fuck sake." I'm like, "There you go." So, literally, we're in the car. We're driving Jackie down to St. Catherine's uh courthouse to get his divorce papers and his birth certificate cuz he's getting married to her now. Um it was just stuff like that.

[00:20:20]It was it was stuff you couldn't make up and anything to to make a dollar. And then there was the more serious stuff like the we need to go meet with this guy and I meet with this guy and he wants me to do a contract killing and um it caused problems because obviously I can't go out and kill somebody and uh to to keep the legend going and um we had to work a way out of that and fortunately enough the guy backed out but he was never arrested for for the conspiracy to commit murder or anything.

[00:20:49]So, >> I think Rockco only took one major case and he and the charges were dropped before he even went to um >> which which one was that?

[00:20:57]>> I think it was in 79 or 80.

[00:21:01]>> It was a CA when I say major, I mean like there was a bunch of he was arrested with a bunch of other mob guys in a I think it was a a fraud or some type of extortion case. Um, and the char Rocco's charges were dropped before they even got to uh pass the first part of the case.

[00:21:22]>> Rocco Roco, Johnny, and Frankie had a lot of friends in the police service at the time.

[00:21:27]>> A lot of friends, >> but Johnny did, you know, Johnny did time uh at a number of occasions. He did Johnny did time on the on the French connection. I mean, that's how that's how long they were talking about.

[00:21:38]>> But then Hamilton police weren't dealing with that. So, >> right. And Helps if your cops aren't being paired by the bad guys.

[00:21:46]>> Yep. And then uh he did time on uh another case. I think it was out of Quebec. It had to do with him and Katrroni uh Vic Katrroni together extorting a Jewish guy >> in Yeah. Yeah. A blue scene.

[00:22:03]>> No, the blue scene was a was something that happened in the 60s. This was a guy named >> this was a guy named Bader Stanley. They called him. Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> Stan the Swindler.

[00:22:13]>> But Bluestein, they nearly killed >> Bluestein. They Johnny Pops beat him to inch of his life.

[00:22:20]>> Yeah.

[00:22:21]>> But yes, they Johnny Pops seemed to have a affinity for trying to shake down Jewish guys, which I mean that's normal uh for, you know, Italians and >> he had an affinity for shaking down uh other gaming guys.

[00:22:33]>> That's what both those guys were. He was taking the he was taking the book off them.

[00:22:39]>> The Bader guy ended up getting killed.

[00:22:41]uh like six or seven years after he testified against Katrroni and Johnny and Johnny had to go do like two years I think in the late 70s >> uh and Bader was hiding in Miami and they found him in like 82 83.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah. These guys don't screw around.

[00:22:57]>> No. No.

[00:22:58]>> It's like with with Enzo and uh Dominic Violi. They'll find him sooner or later and they'll they'll not screw around.

[00:23:04]What uh what was Frankie's you said you saw him less often but uh compare him to Rocco in terms of personality or how they how they you know moved about >> just a moody guy. Um tough guy but wanted everyone to know it. I'm sure Rocky could look after himself. I mean all these guys could but uh yeah Frankie wanted everyone to know what a tough guy was that he just had that walk that that air of arrogance about him. Um uh he he was hard to talk to. He would have been hard to infiltrate. Um whereas Rocky was pretty easy.

[00:23:42]Rocky was Rocky was you could talk to Rocky. One one thing I noticed, and this is just kind of popping in my head right now as we're having this conversation, is out of the three Papelia brothers, the three main ones, uh the only I've never seen a picture of Johnny smiling. I've never seen a picture of Frank smiling, but I a couple pictures that that surface just from the uh obituary. Um, and there's some there pictures that are kind of through multiple uh, you know, eras of Rocco's life. And he's smiling in all the photos. Rocky Rocky laughed through his belly when he would talk when we were talking about me getting married. He's he thought it was hilarious. Just the look on my face. He just he loved it. He absolutely loved it. Frankie just didn't laugh. Just walked out. You guys are [ __ ] Walked out and left. Uh, and that was his his end in the play. But, uh, yeah, with um with Rocky, he he'd laugh. He'd he'd joke about he'd uh I once asked him if I could join the mafia. Uh, I was just being cheeky. Hey, can I join the mafia?

[00:24:55]He's like, no. I said, why not? You're not Italian. That's racist.

[00:25:02]We'll take it to HR >> cultural diversity in Hamilton.

[00:25:06]>> He was he was he was that kind of guy.

[00:25:07]But he was still at the end of the day he was still a mobster. They were still these were not nice people. They were just they were okay with me at the time because at the end of the day I took them I took them stolen booze. I took them stolen smokes. Um any stolen goods we got hold of we we take them there and we we give to these guys and sell them to them. Um and then when when I took on the um because the the conspiracy to commit murder was a big thing for just for him him to give me the job uh was a huge thing. And it was um I I went down the next day. I didn't know what I was going down for. And he says um he didn't he actually didn't talk. Jackie did all the talking. We're going to meet a friend of ours. So, okay, fine. So, we go meet this guy. And this guy, he's a civilian.

[00:25:49]He's he's nothing he knows these guys, but he's nothing to do with them. And he goes off on one. He wants this guy dead.

[00:25:56]And I'm trying to talk him out of it.

[00:25:57]And and then I throw a stupid figure at him to to kill this guy, and he says, "Yeah, I'll pay that." And it was just a mess. Um but uh it would have been a conspiracy to commit murder. Uh but again Rocky on that one didn't say a word. He just said we've got work for you tomorrow. Be here and that's why I came down. So but the the trust that that that that builds up that I turn up for that and then nobody gets arrested.

[00:26:20]It it played well when we move forward.

[00:26:23]>> Was uh was Bruno Monaco around any of this?

[00:26:29]>> Yeah. I met him I met him once.

[00:26:33]I I have no idea what happened to that guy. Is he still alive?

[00:26:36]>> Yeah, I see. He's a kind he's a shadowy guy. I I I can't even speak to what's going on with Bruno Monaco right now, but uh he's definitely somebody that if you look into, you know, Ontario mafia activity in uh Hamilton Niagara, he's kind of always there in the background.

[00:26:56]I think he was involved in that case that I was talking about that Rocco got uh indicted in, but I know that he was around the Papalas.

[00:27:06]>> Crazy crazy eyes. Um >> if it's the same guy.

[00:27:11]>> No, it is. It's the same guy.

[00:27:13]>> No, no, the same guy I'm thinking of.

[00:27:15]Crazy crazy big guy. Big eyes.

[00:27:17]>> Uh we met him at a bar. I was with uh I was with two Italians. We were in a bar downtown Hamilton somewhere. I can't remember. We used to drive all over the place and we do drug deals and and um he came in and grabbed a drink and then he came over to the table and he knew both the guys I was with and and these are two tough guys and they were worried about him. They didn't want him standing behind them and he's he's just got these these mental eyes if it's the same guy.

[00:27:44]Uh and he was on his way to do a job down Toronto and he told us he's like, "Yeah, I'm on way to kill a guy in Toronto." Oh, okay. All right. You enjoy that?

[00:27:53]>> Um the story was he had He he heads down there uh goes to fill up his car, gets into it with the um uh the uh the gas attendant and ends up pistol whipping the gas attendant and gets arrested for robbery for armed robbery. And then there you go. The the guy down in Toronto who was just about to be killed, luckily enough, doesn't get Bruno Monaco looking after him. But it might not be the same guy. I'd have to check it out.

[00:28:18]>> No, I I'm pretty sure it's the same guy.

[00:28:21]>> Yeah, I've I've seen pictures of him and I've >> Yeah. I know that he's he did a lot of business with uh Lupinos and Papayas.

[00:28:30]Um >> somewhere >> uh Paul's got a chart in the background.

[00:28:40]>> He's there somewhere.

[00:28:42]>> Uh do you uh >> do you recall >> character? Do do you recall any um when you were in the 2000s hanging around Rocky? Do do you remember the uh doing any interactions? Do you remember witnessing any interactions between him and the Lipinos?

[00:29:01]>> No. No. I saw him once. Um but it wasn't with failures. I never saw those guys together. Never.

[00:29:11]>> Never.

[00:29:11]>> What? And I'm jumping all over the place here, but what what do you think what do you think about uh more recently uh one of Lepino's sons got killed? I mean not super recently but like in the last you know last decade. Um do you uh and there was rumors about a contract that someone was trying to carry out within the Natali uh Lupino's house and then that might have had something to do with it. Do you I still don't really have a ton of context with what happened there.

[00:29:48]>> I I don't think anyone does. I I mean the the the the word that I'm getting is that this was a tit t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t for tat between the Violanos.

[00:29:58]>> Okay.

[00:29:58]>> Um and uh CC was a CC Lepino was a soft target.

[00:30:05]It's as simple as that. And they might not even be going for the hit with CC.

[00:30:08]He might have been going for the old man >> um who was at home at the time, >> right?

[00:30:13]>> Uh but you you've got the you've got the you got the hitman on camera. You've got a a really good image of him. Um, and sooner or later the techn is going to catch up and and that image is going to be uh it's going to be useful for for law enforcement. Uh, but yeah, there were there was a lot a lot went on that that wasn't even reported to the police in that that two three year time period um until Pat went down. And when Pat went down, that was it. It was it was I remember the media, I think it was Peter Edwards from the the star called me >> and said, "What happens next?" And I went, "Nothing. That's it."

[00:30:43]>> He's like, "No, no, no. Everyone's saying that it's this is a war. It's all going to kick off. It's no that's it.

[00:30:47]It's done. There's no there's nobody to fight anymore. Uh and that was it. It was done. They they sorted out between themselves. And whether CC was um um u a civilian or a family member or I I don't know. But uh the everyone I've spoken to has said they he wasn't involved in the business. I hear I hear that Pino though is working with the Lepinos now and kind of Pino Aon Aon >> and you know people can do the math in their head and I know that there's been some um vandal vandal vandalism of of some of Pino's properties. Uh people >> he got a he got a car and he got rats written on his carriage. people accusing him of giving up uh Pat because he was with Pat that the the time that he was assassinated in two in 2020. But I hear he's he's working with you know the other side and >> Pina would have flipped he'd have flipped to the Violent.

[00:31:50]So, >> I also heard and I just heard this in the last couple days cuz I've been trying to track down uh Pat and Angie's like uh the British guy that used to uh you know be their right hand that had been their dad's right hand. John Clary.

[00:32:10]>> Oh, John.

[00:32:11]>> John. Yeah.

[00:32:12]>> Yeah. What about him?

[00:32:13]>> No, I just heard that I just was trying to get a get a beat on what he's doing now and I just I heard from some people he just he's retired. He's tapped out.

[00:32:21]He's not >> done.

[00:32:22]>> He's done.

[00:32:23]>> Yeah. He He chased down the gunman. So when the gunman uh and obviously this this came from one of the officers of the scene after >> um he chased down the gunman when uh he he shot Pat. Uh Pino got the the [ __ ] out of there. And uh uh I think John even uh drove the car into Pino's car.

[00:32:42]But I nearly had John once. Um, this is when I was back in uniform and um I got an informant told me that that John was about to go down to a place called the the Scout Bar down on Centennial down in Stony Creek and he was going to rip all the um um the vending machines off and uh I was going to come out over the radio and say, "Can we get units there?"

[00:33:04]And I thought, you know, I don't know who's listening. I don't know who's on the radio. I don't know who's he's got listening on the This is how little I I I trusted Hamilton police at the time.

[00:33:13]And um I I shot down there. I flew down there and I I walked in and you literally you had the barman bleeding from the face and and then you just had four spaces on the bar that were free from dust obviously where the machines had been taken. And these guys wouldn't talk to me. They said it's not worth it.

[00:33:30]It'll come back and burn the place down.

[00:33:32]And so I just missed him. I missed him by seconds. And then I went in the next day to see if I could re persuade them.

[00:33:38]And there were four brand new units there. And obviously they've been replaced with uh with John Clary's units.

[00:33:44]>> Was he a big he a big guy?

[00:33:46]>> No. No. Tough guy though.

[00:33:50]>> Tough guy though. All these guys were I mean there was there was Clary, there was um uh Aignon. Uh I I don't know whether he's a tough guy or not. I don't think so. Um who did Aignon with? Person Reggie Person Ball.

[00:34:08]um he can look after himself. He's he's filled in a few people. Uh but yeah, John John can look after himself. It's just I never never got there in time to to find out. So, >> he's a guy I I like I like learning about the guys in the background, the guys that are important but don't necessarily get the headlines. And um I I had some, you know, sources telling me about him and I just kind of got really interested in him. Uh you know, he's 85 years old right now. will be. Yeah.

[00:34:38]>> Yeah. And uh came over from Great Britain at some point when he was younger and uh got really close to all the Masatanos and they trusted him like he was family.

[00:34:49]>> Yeah, he's um he was a player. He was a serious player at one stage. He was a he was I mean he worked for Dominic Mane, he worked for for Pat. Uh but yeah, he was a serious serious mover.

[00:35:02]>> So did you uh hear anything about uh Roco's funeral? I know it was a couple weeks ago at all.

[00:35:10]>> It it it wasn't a secret. I mean, they put it in the paper. Um I I haven't really spoken to anybody that was there. Uh but I was just wondering if you had heard if it if it it got a big uh you know, there was a big crowd or or you know, people from Scott, >> I wish I know I know nothing. I literally found out off you. Um um yeah, I was having a couple of down days. I was I had loads to do and uh I was sort of off social media. I was off off the media full stop. And and then you called me out the blue and said, "Yeah, Rock, he's dead." I'm like, "Okay." Um I don't feel any way about that, but didn't wish the guy any harm.

[00:35:53]I don't wish him any well. He's just he's a nobody to me. Uh he was a target.

[00:35:58]That was it. Uh, but he was a target that was that actually he was fun to be around. So, what do you remember the last time you saw him?

[00:36:11]September 2006 when everything went to [ __ ] Yeah.

[00:36:19]Yeah. I I didn't call him. I called Jackie.

[00:36:23]So, when we thought we'd been compromised, I called Jackie. I called a few people. Uh, and I just I apologize cuz I had some I think I had some things to do for Rocky and just apologized.

[00:36:33]Said, "Listen, I'm in the [ __ ] here of uh there's a warranty for me. I need to go into hiding." And Jackie's like, "Yeah, you look after yourself. We'll get somebody else to do the work that he's doing." So, and then I never went back undercover.

[00:36:45]>> Well, you you let everybody know about your book because I don't think we properly puffed your uh uh hyped your book the last time you were on. It's it's a great read. 1078. Um, >> have you read it?

[00:37:00]>> Yeah.

[00:37:01]>> Did you review it?

[00:37:02]>> I didn't review it, but I read it.

[00:37:04]>> Review it.

[00:37:06]>> I'll I'll drop you a review. I promise.

[00:37:09]>> Thank you.

[00:37:09]>> Let everybody know, though. I mean, it's a great uh insider tale about cops and robbers and undercover work. And I mean, you really I I say this often because I guess these are the type of people that I interview on here, but I mean, you really did live a movie script.

[00:37:29]>> You know what? At the time, because obviously it's that's condensed into what, 280 pages. Um, but that's that's maybe a tenth of what actually happened when we were undercover. Uh, but spread over almost two years. So, there'd be weeks where nothing had happened.

[00:37:48]Um, but yeah, I just thank everyone that bought that book out. I mean, I've sold over 5,000 copies now, which is crazy.

[00:37:54]>> That's really for people that don't understand.

[00:37:56]>> Don't get me wrong, there's no money in it. I've I I set it to a really cheap price. I mean, people are setting the books at like $39.99. I don't get it.

[00:38:03]So, I set it so it' sell, but yeah, I'm over 5,000 copies now. So, >> um, yeah, it's great.

[00:38:11]>> That's a really an insane number for not having a uh major publishing house, you know. Who doesn't like it? Hamilton Fleece for some reason.

[00:38:20]>> Well, so that's the that's the kind of I want to end on on this note. Why is it and this isn't I'm not giving law enforcement in the US a free pass because they have their own issues. Um, and especially when it comes to organized crime in certain cities, FBI uh and DEA offices have been compromised in major investigations. So, I'm not trying to uh say that they're the white knight of of of busting gangsters, but why is it in my my time of really immersing myself in reporting on on the Canadian underworld and getting a better understanding of the way things go out there? It is it's not why why is why is corruption so widespread? And it's not specific to like in like the analogy I'll make and then I'll throw it over to you is that like in the US there's like pockets but it's not as pervasive.

[00:39:26]It seems to me, and I say this with respect to anybody who's a, you know, a straight shooter Canadian law enforcement that's watching this, and I'm not trying to paint a broad stroke against all people in law enforcement in Canada, but just seems like there's a lot more uh lanes into bribes and protection. And >> for Hamilton, for Hamilton, >> um I I think it's traditional. I mean, you you you got a you got a country in America that set up um legislation that made alcohol illegal.

[00:40:05]Um and then right across the border, you've got a country that's just the same size as America where alcohol is completely legal. And Capon used to get his booze directly from uh Roco Perry.

[00:40:16]That's that's well known.

[00:40:19]>> But police officers were asked to turn a blind eye. Well, it was legal that side of the border. So, it doesn't matter what the Americans say to the Canadian police and can you stop this stuff from coming over? They just it's not going to happen. Uh, so they take backhanders to take a to turn a blind eye. And I I think it just progressed from there. And now it's we're at a stage where um officers some officers uh come into the job, they're bad to start off with. They just they shouldn't be on the job. And then you've got other officers that become bad for whatever reason whether it's financial a divorce or they get an alcohol problem or and then you've got the third category off officers especially in Canada because there's no assistance for for uh PTSD or at least there wasn't when I went through uh for PTSD but you got a a third um group of officers where uh PTSD has a an extremely negative effect on on their psyche and the way they behave and and I'm not justifying their actions but I am saying that it's a mitigating factor in when they do something wrong. There's the Rosowski case is pretty famous and I've I've harped on about it before, but Craig contacted me from prison. He was a piece of [ __ ] He he was taking money left, right, and center. He was uh he was giving up warrants. Um he was just just a a nasty piece of work. Uh however, I've spoken to all the people that paid him off, all the bad guys that paid him off. And uh one thing's consistent, he never did this before 2010. And in 2010, he became involved in a shooting incident where he shot somebody in the in the face. Um, and I would imagine that was his turning point. So instead of getting the assistance he needed or asking for the assistance he needed, obviously he he fell off the rails and he turned to a life of crime. Um, America is different. I mean, if if some if a police officer commits a criminal offense here in Canada, everybody's shouting about it. Uh, everybody's asking for the chief to resign. Uh, if a police officer commits a a criminal offense, say in Florida, P County for instance.

[00:42:20]>> Yeah.

[00:42:21]>> Where Grady Jud is, uh, Grady Jud's the one that's going to come and arrest you and put you before the courts. So, there's there's a different mentality.

[00:42:28]So, it's going to happen in the US, but it's not going to happen at the same rate as it does up here because they they don't protect it as well um in the US as they do in Canada. And they they do like to hide these things. They really do. I'm I'm just noting just in the last 20 years, 25 years, you have these certain people and groups in Canada, whether it be bikers, the mafia, uh a drug kingpin like Orion wedding, where they get so big like in like beyond the borders of Canada, like international uh super size international And there's just if you know the way things happen and those there's just no way they're able to to rise that high and get that big without inside information coming from law enforcement >> and it it's it's a problem. I I sat down with it must be 2019 now. I sat down with um two intelligence officers from Niger Regional Police. So they're out on the border. It's a peninsula. It's it should be an easy easy place to police because it's not a border border.

[00:43:39]there's a a big river between it and a waterfall. Um, but I sat down with two of them and I had uh a complaint come to me, a complaint come to me and I was no longer a police officer. I was I think suspended at the time or something like that. Uh, but I not been into work for some time and um the complainant had come to me with a crime report which was classified.

[00:44:02]Uh, so I took it to the intelligence and went, "Listen, you got somebody leaking this." and they turned around and said, "Nothing we can do about it." What do you mean you can't do anything about it?

[00:44:10]And they went, "There's no way for us to trace it." So Niagara Regional Police are running a system where I can be sat in my police car, my cruiser. I can bring up a report on the MDT and intelligence report. I can take a photograph of it and I can text it to you for $100.

[00:44:26]That's the system they're running at the moment. Uh when you've got those kind of lapses, it becomes very easy to be corrupt. Um, I mean, I think [ __ ] police as well, they had an officer that was on for two years before he was arrested for trafficking, ketamine, steroids, um, cocaine, everything. So, we're rather recruiting the wrong people who were treating them very badly and put them in a position where they believe they could behave that way. They're they're justified in behaving this way.

[00:44:53]>> I'm I'm just of the opinion, and I don't I don't want to get soap boxy, and if it if that's how it comes off, I apologize.

[00:45:00]or if it comes off like I'm getting soapboxy on behalf of criminals, take it what it is. But I just feel like if if you're if you're the government and whatever country you are and you're you're coming out you come you're coming after the bad guys like come correct like you know make a strong case and make it clean and do it the right way.

[00:45:27]But the the the notion that a lot of people have and I'm going to tie this into some real time stuff before we leave. Uh and I want to just get your quick take on it and it it all connects to what we're talking about. Uh and the ends doesn't justify the means in my opinion and some maybe in some in some extreme extreme cases possibly but for the most part it doesn't >> never uh we got a set of rules. We stick to those rules. It's as simple as that.

[00:45:56]um society's got to set the rules. The people that don't stick to those rules go to jail and that's the job of the police officer to put these people in jail. Okay? But we've got to abide by the rule. As soon as we stop start breaking the rules, then we're no better than the people we're putting away. Uh and usually if you do break one of those those evidentiary rules or procedural rules, you're committing a criminal offense anyway. Um it's you you've got America's different. Okay? We we've just got a there's an argument going on on Twitter at the moment. There's there's a a guy gets arrested for a $22 million gold heist at Pearson Airports. He gets four years. He's going to be out in 18 months. Okay. I think that's disgusting.

[00:46:40]>> Yeah.

[00:46:41]>> And people are arguing back going, "Well, it's nonviolent."

[00:46:44]I say, "Yeah, it's nonviolent. It's $22 million." You know what I mean? What do you get in in the US if you uh if you rob $22 million? You'd be >> you up to 25 or Yeah. So, >> you know what? I I think we're very very lax on crime up here and and they wear it with pride in Canada.

[00:47:05]>> Uh they wear it like we're very uh tolerant people and and that's why such a shitty community at the moment. And we do we've got Canada's not a nice place to live at the moment. Uh and there's not many people that'll tell you different than that. No, it's pretty it's pretty um staggering when when I'm looking at some of the uh sentences for for some of these criminals that I've just started in the last five five years covering and you see um uh one that comes to mind from the Hell's Angels uh from the Montreal chapter, Marvin Wtt, they call him the ghost or Casper the ghost and uh you know Marvin Wette got convicted of 14 13 14 murders. ers and he did tw he did 10 years.

[00:47:51]>> Rene Renard Deardans who you know started this whole rudo war 20 years ago or 15 16 years ago uh he he is found guilty of uh arranging the assassination of his co-conspirator in the insurrection Salvador Montana. He does five years.

[00:48:12]>> Yeah. They're just very very lack sentences, >> very likes. And you know what that that sort of plays a a part on the police psyche as well when you're arresting people for robberies and for for home invasions and and then you're arresting the very same people the next night because they've been released on bail.

[00:48:29]Uh and of course there's a presumption of guilt. Uh there's a presumption of innocence. But you know what? I think we've taken it too far in Canada. I think we we've left ourselves with a society that that really isn't that safe. Um I I I I mean I let the kids walk when we lived in Florida. I let the kids walk wherever they wanted. It wasn't an issue. Uh I won't let them walk downtown Niagara Falls.

[00:48:51]>> Not a not a chance. I drive them everywhere. Um and that that speaks volumes because three four years ago I would have done. So the the the government have really really let it let lapse when it comes to uh to how we treat our prisoners. They want to give them all the rights and entitlements and and I understand that, but it takes away from the victim. It really does.

[00:49:14]>> So, I'm just going to tease tease this out for something that's coming down the pike very soon, and I'm going to tie it into everything that we just spoke about for the last 5 10 minutes, get a a parting take by uh Paul, and and then let him go enjoy the rest of his evening. Um, so I'm going to be doing a series coming up very shortly. Uh, it's probably going to be three videos, maybe more, but I've been able to get my hands on a lot of the internal court and law enforcement documents uh that made up Project Alliance, the biggest uh organized crime prosecution in Canadian history, headed to trial this fall. Uh pretty much the entire Brazo crime family leadership is behind bars right now facing life in prison, half a dozen murders, gangsterism, uh the whole kitten kaboodleoodle. And and I'm not saying that they're not guilty of what they were charged, but when I'm looking through these files and I have my hands on debriefing documents from their number one witness, Freddy Silva, there's a lot that doesn't make sense.

[00:50:34]And there's a lot that I'm not trying to derail any prosecutions or what, but I'm gonna put some stuff out and and and this stuff is fact and it will eventually come out in the trial in the fall that just make you question the timeline that uh the indictment states and how reliable their number one witness is, Freddy Silva, who was a bad dude, But some of these debriefing documents that I have that I've seen that I've got my hands on don't necessarily match up with what was charged.

[00:51:16]>> Yeah. Whenever you deal with a case where you've got u a witness who is actually a criminal or convicted criminal or party to that crime that you're you're you're now prosecuting, you're always going to have issues. Always. uh and you work around those issues. Now, you say it's fall. It goes to trial.

[00:51:37]>> It's going to be I think it's going to be a series of trials. I don't think it's going to be one trial. I think uh the first one's supposed to start in September or October.

[00:51:44]>> This discovery and disclosure won't even be close to being finished yet.

[00:51:47]>> Okay. Well, that's a whole there's a very good chance we won't actually go to trial, but right now it's scheduled for trial.

[00:51:53]>> No, what I what I'm saying is discovery and disclosure >> Yeah. won't be close to being finished yet because there will be there will be um confidential informants in this and the there'll be witnesses that are protected and there'll be sensitive policing methods that were used that they don't want to disclose and that will all come up in void. So they'll have a private argument about whether certain information should be released and it won't have been released yet.

[00:52:15]It'll be when the trial starts they'll start to argue about all those other things. So, I think you might find that it becomes a bit more complete when when all the documents are released and the the the uh the prosecution give their opening statements. Um, so I won't I won't read too much into it yet.

[00:52:30]However, if you've seen something that really doesn't fit, then yeah, you you might be on to something.

[00:52:35]>> Well, I'm just I'm just give I'm again I'm going to tease it out and then people can come back in the next couple days and I'm going to release the first video. I'm just going to say just a very basic thing that was said in Freddy Silva's first like five minutes sitting down talking to law enforcement. Freddy Silva told them within the first five minutes that he was Italian. We know that Freddy Silva ain't Italian. He's Portuguese.

[00:52:59]So, you know, right off right off the jump he's he's lying. And you know it's stuff like that is again you just you just hope everything's above board and when you see that and then that becomes >> identifies as Italian right he identifies as right okay so I've said too much everybody come back and check out my uh series on project project alliance where I'm going to be going through a lot of the uh court filings that are a lot of these are sealed but I've been able to get my hands on them uh through my resourcefulness and uh I'll be uh uh letting everybody know what I've what I've found. Paul, thank you so much for joining us and giving us Oh, >> pleasure.

[00:53:41]>> the exclusive insight and analysis that you always bring and uh you you I can just envision when it eventually hits the either the television set or the or the streaming network or the film, we're going to have like Russell Crow playing you and and uh Stephen Spielberg directing. It's gonna be epic.

[00:54:02]>> You said I'm false. No, I'm saying that you're you need to have a great actor that that uh emits the uh the gravitas that that you bring. And I just threw a name out. It doesn't necessarily have to be him, but >> Yeah.

[00:54:15]>> All right. I appreciate it, Scott. Yeah.

[00:54:17]>> All right. Thanks, buddy.

[00:54:19]>> You take enjoy the enjoy the rest of the the the evening. Thank you. Uh please like, share, and subscribe. Original Gangsters News Network and Podcast.

[00:54:27]Thank you to my producer uh Benny Augusta for producing Original Gangsters News Network and podcast. Uncovering the underworld, one city, one region, one country, one continent at a time. We're out.