A Global History of World War II with Paul Thomas Chamberlain | John Batchelor

[00:00:03]I'm John Bachelor. It's a great pleasure to welcome Professor Paul Thomas Chamberlain. He's a Columbia University teaching contemporary history that is within the last 100 years, especially the subject of his new book, Scorched Earth: A Global History of World War II.

[00:00:22]Professor, congratulations. A very good evening to you. We go right to a moment you very carefully describe. November 25th, 1941 at the White House, President Roosevelt held a meeting with Secretary of State Cordell Hull, Secretary of the Navy William Franklin Knox, Army Chief of Staff George Marshall, Admiral Harold Stark of the Navy, Secretary of War Henry Stimson. The subject was the Japanese Empire. The subject was they're going to attack us perhaps within the next week. They discussed in the possibilities looking at attacking the British colonial masters at Singapore, attacking the American colonial masters at the Philippines.

[00:01:06]I believe Pearl Harbor was mentioned but not seriously at that moment. How did they see the world? What were the challenges for them with the Japanese aggression, with the German trilateral agreement with the Japanese Empire? two empires on different sides of the globe. What was the world of 1941? Good evening to you, professor.

[00:01:28]>> Good evening, John. Thanks for having me. Um, so you know, on at that moment in in November of 1941, the United States is confronting a a transformed international order. Um, and you know that that this is something that that American leaders have been grappling with really since the um since the spring of 1940. Uh, and and the first great shock to the Americans, you know, beyond the the outbreak of the war itself um or rather beyond the outbreaks of the the wars in um in Asia and Europe, which at this point in time are still seen as as being somewhat separate, though they're related. Um but the the great shock is the collapse of France uh which comes in um in the the spring and and you know very beginning of the summer of of of 1940.

[00:02:22]And there's a recognition among American leaders that the um the the infrastructure of the world order as it has existed since the end of of um of the first world war has essentially collapsed. Um the uh the fall of France has removed one of the key the two great pillars of the world order. One being the British Empire, the other being the French empire. Uh and this has opened the door to um to bids from uh particularly I the the two most concerning um powers that are have sort of emerged at this point in time are are Germany and Japan. Italy is also a member of the Axis. But the big threat um as far as US leaders are concerned appears to be coming from the Germans and the Japanese. Um and and what has happened is that that the collapse of France has essentially opened the door in in Asia to all of these um French colonial possessions in Southeast Asia that many of them are rich in resources um that the the Japanese need, you know, such as you war materials such as rubber um in the the rubber plantations in in mainland Southeast Asia. Then there's um the big prize is the oil fields in um the Dutch East Indies. And so when US leaders look to the Pacific um they look at you know the the the collapse of one of the great imper the great European empires and the the new vulnerability of all of these French possessions. Uh they also see that the British Empire is embattled um at home in in Western Europe and thus unable to maintain all of its commitments in the Far East which increases the sort of vulnerability that they feel. Uh and um you know that that this is this is the this is the sort of situation that they're confronting in in Asia. Um, Japan is a is a rising imperial power that is is challenging the United States for influence in the region. And American leaders understand that this is this is going to be a problem for US interests in the Pacific.

[00:04:33]When American leaders cast their gaze uh across the Atlantic, um they're looking at a balance and a balance of power in Europe that has been completely toppled by the collapse of France. and um they they're trying to figure out what uh what they can do about uh about the the emergent Third Reich uh which has um essentially defeated France. Uh Britain is besieged at this point in time. Uh there was a moment in the summer of 1940 where there are very real fears that uh the that Britain might collapse, Britain might surrender uh or the German military might invade Great Britain. Um that danger passes uh with the British victory in the uh the so-called battle of Britain. um the the British are able to prevent Germany from establishing air superiority over the English Channel and thus block the prospect of any sort of cross channel invasion uh from the the German military uh to the British Isles.

[00:05:38]Um and then you know the the next uh big concern that they're they're dealing with is um the the invasion of the Soviet Union. And again, there's this moment uh where there there is real fear that the Soviets might collapse, but um at this point in time there the the the the German offensive is is slowing down and it looks as if there's a chance that the Soviets might hold out. So this is the situation that Roosevelt and his key advisers are confronting when they begin receiving cables from American diplomats in Japan uh and other indications um from their um from their their signals intelligence monitoring in the Pacific that suggests that Japan is getting ready to attack American interests.

[00:06:29]Now, at the time, um it's not clear exactly where this attack is going to come from, but uh as as you mentioned, um a couple minutes earlier, um the expectation is that that it's probably going to be against uh US colonial assets in the Philippines. Uh this is the area that is closest um to to uh the you know to to Japanese military forces. Um, it's an area that American leaders believe that the Japanese are going to need to secure if they do end up making this this larger play uh to to move into the Dutch East Indies uh in pursuit of Indonesian oil. Um, and so they're very concerned about the vulnerability of the American colony in the Philippines. And you know from essentially from the the early 20th century from the the the first time that the Phil the colony in the Philippines is established American mil military leaders understand that it's basically impossible to defend. Uh that if Japan launches a concerted attack against the Philippines there's probably no way that that the Americans can completely defend their colony.

[00:07:41]They're going to have to fall back and then come up with some other sort of strategy to fight the war. The war plan they come up with is called war plan orange.

[00:07:50]Um there's another possibility that um there there's a fear as you mentioned that uh the Japanese could move against Pearl Harbor. And this is actually something that the US Navy had been planning for over the course of the 1930s. Uh there's a a famous instance where they run a war game back in the 1930s um that uh basically has a scenario in it where the Japanese uh carrier force basically closes in on Hawaii and launches this sort of preemptive attack against Pearl Harbor or this surprise attack against Pearl Harbor. Uh and um the Japanese are successful. Uh but at this point in time uh when they're running the war game in the 1930s uh there is uh a lot of military planners don't have a good appreciation of exactly what aircraft carriers are capable of and they don't have a good appreciation of what naval aviation and bombing is capable of. Uh and this is this is something that we always have to kind of remember remind ourselves when we talk about the second world war is that you know a lot of these technologies that are so central to the war these military technologies are essentially brand new um at least brand new in terms of of of being used in a large scale war. Um, so there's there's there's still confusion at this point in time in the 1930s and and even, you know, well into um into the the Second World War in the 1940s about what exactly it is that aircraft carriers can do. And uh there's there's a very real question about whether or not an aircraft carrier can actually uh engage in a battle with um you know more traditional uh warships like battleships for instance. And this is why you still see um you know the Japanese Empire, you still see the United States putting a lot of resources into building things like battleships and and keeping them deployed. Uh in retrospect, right, we now know that aircraft carriers are far more powerful than u or far more far more effective for the sort of um war fighting that takes place in World War II than the battleships were. But um this sort of ignorance about exactly what uh what capabilities aircraft carriers have leads the people who are running this war game back in the 1930s which you know predicts an attack on Pearl Harbor to essentially discount uh that warning. So you know this was kind of an early chance that the Americans had to plan for a Japanese attack and they they essentially don't take it. Um, so you know, fast forward, you know, to go back to to November of 1941, um, there is there's a realization among the American leadership that an attack is likely to happen, but they're they're thinking it's probably going to happen in the Philippines. Um, they the prospect of Japan launching a successful attack on Pearl Harbor is just seen as completely far-fetched, and so there's not a whole lot of um a lot of concern in that regard.

[00:10:52]There is however um some discussion among American leaders as to whether or not they ought to strike first against Japan. But it's but Roosevelt and his advisers conclude that this is just something that the United States doesn't do. Right? The United States is not a country that uh that starts wars. Um there is concern that the American people will not support a war that the United will not support a war in which the United States fires the first shot against Japan. And so there's a decision to kind of sit back and allow the Japanese to make the first move uh all while preparing to launch kind of a counterattack.

[00:11:30]This >> that's the chess board. The chess board November 41. Right now you're describing empires and ambition for larger empires.

[00:11:39]>> Yes.

[00:11:40]>> The Germans want more. The Japanese want more. The British want to maintain what they've got, defend it. And the US at this point doesn't recognize itself as an empire, but it is. It has the Philippines. It has bases all around the world. So the presentation I take from your book, Paul, is that thinking of this in terms of liberty and brutality and human rights is not adequate for the scale of what those men in that room saw at that moment. Is that correct, Professor?

[00:12:11]>> I think that's correct. Um, I think the the Americans, you know, if they're being honest with themselves, they know that they have an empire.

[00:12:19]>> Um, they have colonies. You know, they call them colonies. The the largest is the Philippines. Um, but the United States is sort of an unusual type of empire, right? It's a it's a very reluctant empire. Uh, it is an empire that, you know, sort of touts the the gospel of anti-colonialism, right? So I I like to tell my students that, you know, the Americans kind of have an anti-colonial empire. It's it's a paradoxical um notion, but they believe in it. And and that's I I would say that what the Americans want to do, they don't want to maintain their empire. In fact, they want to liquidate their colonies. And there's a plan in place to essentially grant sovereignty to the Philippines.

[00:13:01]And that is put on hold because of what the Japanese are doing, because of the the expansion of Japanese. Let's jump into the battles of 42 and go immediately to what they make of their successes and failures fighting the Germans and the Chinese and the Japanese.

[00:13:18]1942 is a series of battles that determine in the Pacific the Japanese are no longer on the attack. They're on the defensive. In Russia, the Germans are no longer in the attack after Stalenrad. They're they're pulling back from their ambition to get to the oil fields of Baku in the North Atlantic.

[00:13:39]America's entry into the war gives an opportunity for Britain and America to break the potential blockade of the Ubot to cut off Britain from resupplies from North America. However, the landings in Guadal Canal and the landings in North Africa are the US getting used to the idea of invading territory to recaptured from dug in forces. There are reverses.

[00:14:06]There are successes and the leaders of the three empires come together as allies, Russia, Britain and the United States. Two of those allies meet at Kazablanca in January of 1943.

[00:14:22]Professor, what is it that FDR and Churchill see at that moment after the successes of 42? Stalin does not attend.

[00:14:29]Thank you.

[00:14:31]>> So I think what's happened in in November of 1942 is that the tide has really turned in the war. uh this is in my mind this is probably the best candidate for the you the sort of turning point of of the second world war and in some respects I think it's a good candidate um for thinking about a turning point in kind of the the larger history of the 20th century and the history of um of of international order in the 20th century. So in November of 1942 you have three major battles. Uh the the first and largest is uh the battle of Stalenrad, right? And which has been going on for some time and this is the largest battle in human history by by by many metrics. Um and this is really the moment when the Soviets start to get the upper hand at Stalenrad. Uh it's also the moment where the Americans are gaining the upper hand at the battle of Guadal Canal, which is a critical battle in determining the course of the Pacific War. This is this is it's the battle of Guadal Canal that's going to mark the furthest extent of the Japanese Empire in the South Pacific. Right? So so Guadal Guadal Canal is essentially where the Americans uh the American Marines are able to stop the spread of the Japanese Empire. Uh and then in that same month, the United States also launches an amphibious invasion of North Africa and the the tide in the um the the sort of desert war uh between the British and the Germans in North Africa turns. So this is really the moment when I think that the that the key leaders in the Second World War recognize that the likeliest outcome is that the allies are going to win World War II. Um, but it's also a tipping point in the sort of geopolitical structure of the world order because this is the moment where you see the superpowers really emerging in a way where they're going to be able to surpass and eclipse the old colonial empires that have essentially dominated global affairs for uh for for generations upon generations up to this point in time. Right? So if we think about November of 1942, obviously the French empire has collapsed right long ago. Um the Japanese empire has essentially been stopped. Its expansion has been stopped at Guadal Canal. The German Empire, the you know Hitler's Third Reich has been stopped at the battle of Stalenrad.

[00:17:08]And in North Africa, we've seen uh this this essentially, you know, this this drawn out protracted struggle between the British and the Germans where the British are not able to establish the upper hand, right? They're not able to defeat the Germans on their own. It's only uh with the introduction of American tanks and support and lend aid and the allied landings in North Africa that the tables turn in North Africa.

[00:17:35]Right? So this is really the moment where you see the the full eclipse of the superpowers, right? These these kind of new um kind of quasi imperial but not not colonial empires. They're they're sort of new type of um you know they're they're continent spanning super states with massive populations, massive economies, massive industrial bases, massive resources. and they're able particularly in the case of the United States to project power and overwhelming force overseas, right? And and to think to to think about November 1942, it's really incredible that the United States is able to win this pivotal battle in the Pacific at Guadal Canal at the same time that is mounting an amphibious invasion on the other side of the world in North Africa. And so to my mind, this is really the moment where you see the the sort of the the larger structures of world history changing. Um, and it's in that light >> 30 seconds goes to Casablanca.

[00:18:45]>> And is that when he offers unconditional surrender to Stalin?

[00:18:51]So this is a moment where um the Americans and the British are confronted with proof from the battle of Stalenrad that the Soviet Union is not going to collapse.

[00:19:04]>> The Soviet Union is able to defeat a largecale German offensive. Um it's you know the Soviet victory in they they had done this before at Barbar Roa but from the British and American perspective there's this sense that it was the the Russian winter that really defeated the Germans but at Stalenrad it's the Red Army that is defeating the Germans.

[00:19:28]>> Let's bring in Stalin then. Let's get him on the on the on the front line. It is November it is 1943.

[00:19:36]It begins with the Kazablanca conference between Roosevelt and Churchill and moves towards the Thrron conference where Stalin enters the field.

[00:19:45]Professor, your remarks about Kazablanca and then on to Stalin's presence and how that changes the conversation. Thank you.

[00:19:52]>> Thank you. Yes. So the big issue that um that is confronting Churchill and Roosevelt at Casablanca is this realization that the Soviet Union is going to survive the war and the Soviet Union is going to be a major pl in European affairs. Um the the great fear that the western leaders have at this point in time is that uh having turned the tables on the eastern front that Stalin Joseph Stalin might be tempted to seek some sort of peace deal with Adolf Hitler and they would lose the the Western powers would lose the Soviet Union as an ally. And at this point in time, it's the Soviet Union that is bearing uh nearly all of the the the military force that Germany can can deploy. Um the Western powers are not uh fighting in Europe in large numbers and um so they need to figure out some way to keep Stalin in the war uh and to keep the Soviet Union from making some sort of separate peace deal with Nazi Germany. And historians have kind of concluded that the unconditional surrender declaration which comes out of Casablanca is kind of aimed at that.

[00:21:07]It's aimed at at uh giving some reassurance to Stalin that the Western powers are definitely going to stay in the war. They're going to fight. Uh and it's also a way of excusing the fact that they're not opening up a second front in Europe at this point in time.

[00:21:21]rather than launching a cross channel invasion of France uh in northwest Europe uh they choose the western powers uh choose to sort of continue the offensive in the Mediterranean. Um this is when they decide they're going to go into Sicily and then after Sicily they're going to go into Italy. Uh this is something that Stalin and the Soviets see as kind of um waffling. Uh there's a sense in Moscow that what's really happening in the Mediterranean is that the British Empire is um kind of hoodwinking the Americans into fighting to defend British imperial interests in the Mediterranean rather than going directly into a war against Nazi Germany aimed at defeating the Third Reich. Um, so unconditional surrender is a is a way of kind of sugarcoating the news to Stalin that uh there's not going to be a second front in France in um in 1943.

[00:22:16]It's going to be pushed back to 1944.

[00:22:19]And that of course points us um toward the Tyrron conference where they will meet face tof face with with Stalin. Uh Stalin is famously afraid of flying. uh he doesn't want to go overseas to meet um meet the the British or the Americans. Uh so he's essentially only um only traveling to places where he can uh he can he can reach fairly easily that are close to the Soviet Union. He insists that he has to stay close to the to the battle raging on the eastern front. There's a fourth empire to mention at this point because on the way to Thran, FDR stops off in Cairo and there he meets with Chiang Kai-shek. I believe they dine together. Chiang Kaishek is representing the fourth empire that we know today as people's republic of China. But FDR does not help Chiang Kaishek. Why?

[00:23:14]So Roosevelt wants to support Shang and the Chinese. Um, and the United States is sending lend lease aid to China, though it's considerably lower figures uh in in terms of the the the value of the aid uh compared to what the Americans are sending to the British and the the Soviets. Um but Roosevelt is sort of caught in this unique situation where on the one hand he has to keep the British happy uh and the British are an imperial power. Um on the other hand the United States is as I said earlier it's an anti-colonial power in the world. uh the the Americans want to see this sort of old uh colonial empires um dissolved and they want to see the the sort of uh imperial preference system uh replaced with a world of free trade. Uh and as part of that sort of global project uh they are the Americans Roosevelt his advisers are thinking about what's going to happen in the postcolonial world. Um they recognize that anti-colonialism is a powerful force in 20 20th century world affairs. They recognize that China is reemerging as a great power. Um Shang has kind of spearheaded the consolidation of China and China is is reemerging as an important player on the world stage. uh there is uh an awareness that moving forward after the end of the war uh after victory in the war uh that uh something is going to have to be done with all these parts of the world that had formerly been been colonized. And so Cairo is an opportunity for Roosevelt to sort of reach out to Shank Kaishek and um you know kind of give him reassurances often in private often out of earshot of Winston Churchill that the United States does intend to uh to support the commitments that it it voices in documents such as the Atlantic Charter, right? A a commitment to a world characterized not by empire but a world character characterized by self-determination.

[00:25:25]Uh but that world is also going to be a world that is dominated by American economic power. So it's it is it Roosevelt's vision is more of a kind of you know it it it looks much more like the the liberal capitalist international order that actually takes shape. Um and he recognizes that China is going to be an important player in that respect.

[00:25:47]>> I want to pay attention to Churchill's vision. Churchill has an empire and he is not in favor of a cross channel second front. He's in favor of launching into the the belly of the Balkans or into the Mediterranean basin again and again. Sicily and and Italy suit him.

[00:26:07]Why? Because he sees the possibility that Russia will dominate the continent after the collapse of Germany. And that is not good for the British Empire. Do I say that correctly, professor? I think that's correct. Um that that's that's one of the the big motivations for Churchill. He he famously says that, you know, he doesn't want to win the war only to lose the empire, right? The the British have um you know, they they they are going to be fighting the war the entire time, right? From the um the invasion of Poland, you know, where they will declare war on on Germany to the very end. They're in it the whole time.

[00:26:44]Um, and they believe that they, you know, they're not fighting this war to bankrupt the British Empire. They're not fighting this war to u to destroy the empire. They want to save it. Um, a key factor motivating Churchill's thinking is uh is also the memory of the First World War and the the generation of young British men that died in the trenches fighting the First World War.

[00:27:09]And so he wants to avoid that. Uh and so so Churchill's nightmare is that a cross channel invasion of France is going to degenerate into this mass bloodletting that is going to essentially uh kill another generation of of British men and leave Britain so weakened that it can't um kind of function as a great power after the end of the war. That is of particular concern because as I said before post Stalinrad there's an understanding that the Soviet Union is going to be the most powerful military player in Europe after the defeat of Nazi Germany and so there has to be there has to be some sort of um motus of endi sort of worked out uh between the western powers and the Soviets. And what Churchill wants to do is is take maximum advantage of the reality that the the Soviet Red Army is engaged the bulk of the German military, which allows uh that the Soviets have engaged the bulk of the German military on the Eastern Front. And this frees up the Americans and the British to essentially wage whatever sort of campaigns they want.

[00:28:16]They're maritime powers. They can stage amphibious landings. Uh they have control of of maritime lines of communication. they have, you know, powerful naval forces. Um, and so Churchill is is kind of constantly uh trying to slow down the Americans in their push to launch a cross channel invasion of France and instead redirect the Americans towards operations in the Mediterranean or the Balkans as means of uh kind of fighting to make sure that the post-war situation is more favorable to British and American interests than to Soviet interests. Does Roosevelt romance Stalin at Tyrron or is that all done at Ealta?

[00:29:02]>> I think a lot of it's actually done in Roosevelt's head. Um in retrospect um you know Roosevelt will brag about how much Stalin likes him. Um but I this is one of these cases where I think Stalin may have actually outmaneuvered Roosevelt uh in terms of of the diplomacy and the politicking. Um, you Roosevelt has a, you know, he he's he he famously has this political style where, you know, he kind of tells everyone what they want to hear. Um, and he he he wants to keep the people around him confused so that at the end of the day he's the person that makes the decision.

[00:29:36]Uh, and he tries to do that with Churchill and um and Stalin. uh and succeeds to varying degrees. But I my sense and of course no one really knows what Stalin was thinking. Uh but my sense is that Stalin could see through a lot of this and Stalin kind of throughout uh his meetings with with Churchill and Roosevelt and then later Truman that Stalin has a pretty clear idea of what he wants to do and he's not really being charmed by the Americans that much.

[00:30:07]Churchill is most concerned that the Germans will collapse and the Russians will rush in and he won't be anywhere on the continent. Not in the Balkans, not in Italy, not in France.

[00:30:20]However, once the landings happen, Churchill then has an idea, or if it's not Churchill, it's someone in your book that perhaps we should enlist the Germans without Hitler and turn on Stalin.

[00:30:33]already in 44 they saw that post war Stalin was going to be the problem. Did they?

[00:30:41]>> Correct. Yeah. Um actually the sort of first inklings of these sorts of plans to to align with the German military against the Soviet Union uh are are voiced in 1943. Um and again this is a reaction to the Soviet victory at Stalenrad in this realization that if the Soviet Union doesn't collapse and it it emerges victorious in the war, it's going to be the most important player in Europe. It's going to be uh at least in military terms uh there's there's really no force that's going to be able to rival the Red Army at this point in time. And so a lot of their thinking from 1943 onward um is is focused not just on finding the best and most efficient way to defeat Nazi Germany, but also on ensuring that there is an alignment of forces on the ground in Europe at the end of the war that is is is capable of blocking the further expansion of Soviet influence. Right? So very early on they're already thinking about ways to kind of um you know essentially contain I mean they don't use this language at this point in time but they're containing Soviet influence in Europe and they're doing it um by ensuring that there are American and British and Canadian u military forces in Western Europe and and so the the the pressure really um comes uh to the to the Americans in particular to find some way to get troops in if it looks like Germany is going to collapse. And it's in this moment that they kind of come up with this plan called Operation Ranken uh which is a plan to send um American and British airborne troops into Berlin uh if uh in a matter of hours if the the Western leaders uh to find out that Germany is about to collapse. And the reason for that uh the stated reason for that is to basically ensure you know security inside the German capital. Uh but really what they're thinking is that they want to make sure that there there are boots on the ground at the end of the war um so that the Red Army doesn't occupy all of Europe.

[00:32:50]>> What is Roosevelt's thinking of Stalin at this point? These are clashing empires. Does he recognize that the Russian Empire believes that it's going to win the whole map if it hurries up?

[00:33:02]>> He's afraid of that. Yes. and he has he has plenty of advisers that are kind of pulling him aside and whispering in in his ear and and telling him that you at this point in time the Soviets have done all the work to defeat the Germans in Europe and if that doesn't change um if there aren't a large number of of Western troops introduced to the the battle for for Europe then Stalin is going to be in a position where he will dictate the terms of peace right and you you hear one adviser after another uh basically saying this to Roosevelt. So Roosevelt is very much thinking of this, thinking about this and he's trying to find any way he can to speed up the timetable to actually get large numbers of American troops in Europe uh in order to start fighting the Germans before the Soviets essentially wrap up the entire war.

[00:33:52]>> At the same time, the landings have started in the central Pacific, Tarowa on to the Carolas. The Marines are carrying the load with the US Navy.

[00:34:04]>> How does Roosevelt see the war against the Japanese Empire? Does he have equally virtuous thoughts about a post-war there, or does he see Japan as useful?

[00:34:18]>> That's a good question. I I don't think so. At this point in time, the priority is Europe. Um, and that's one of the incredible things about what the the Americans are doing in the Pacific is the expectation at this point in time is that that almost all American effort is going to be put into defeating the Germans in Europe and the the Americans and the British are sort of in in the process of doing that. Um, a lot of it, you know, most of the works at this point in time is being done by the Soviets. But it's even in the midst of this that the the Americans have the resources to launch not one but two thrusts across the Pacific. Right? The first is led by MacArthur uh and it's going to go up through the Philippines.

[00:34:59]The second is across is is um more sort of uh the domain of the Navy and Nimmits uh and is going across the central Pacific. So the fact that the United States is able to mount all of these campaigns on other on separate sides of the world is is just astonishing and a signal of of the power of you know these this new you know of a superpower in world affairs right the British hadn't managed to the you know the greatest empire of the the old you know 19th century couldn't do anything like this the Americans couldn't um so so that is is very much um you know this the sort of progress that the Americans are making in the Pacific kind of comes as as a surprise, right? It's surprising that they're able to be this successful this early. Um, and so everything that's happening in the Pacific is kind of happening in the shadow of the war in Europe. And this is something that you'll get a lot of um a lot of Marines and and sailors complaining about.

[00:35:54]>> However, what Roosevelt is doing by defeating the Japanese island by island is he's endorsing the return of the British and French and Dutch empires, isn't he?

[00:36:07]He's making it more possible. Um, but at this point in time, the the priority for the Americans is just making progress in the war and defeating Japan.

[00:36:18]>> He's not going to pick a fight with Churchill about Churchill's vision of the empire.

[00:36:24]>> I think he's waiting for that fight until after the end of the war. Um there there are various American leaders that are placing pressure on the British. Um but oftentimes they're doing that through instruments like lend lease. Um and they're conditioning uh shipments of US aid um on uh sort of you know the British being willing to relax the sort of trade barriers uh to American goods in British dominions and British possessions overseas. So you know there there is a discussion about this the the Atlantic charter is part of that uh the Atlantic charter which basically you know proclaims that the United States and Britain are seeking a world you know governed by self-determination and sovereignty rather than than it you know empires. Um, but Churchill's not entirely on board. And so I I would say that all of the Allied leaders, and this this includes Shank Kaishek and and Stalin, they're they're priority is winning the war, but they're very much thinking about how best to maneuver themselves to have a voice in dictating the structure of power in the post-war world.

[00:37:39]The second front is opening as we speak.

[00:37:42]In June of 1944 in Normandy and June of 1944, as the Russians launch a very large operation against the Germans to push them back against a thousands of mile front called Burgium, we're moving towards Yaltta and dividing up the world into something recognizable to us today.

[00:38:06]We're now in France again, not in Versailles. We're we're in Normandy. An enormous battle that takes place between June and August when they enter Paris and then rolls on towards Germany. At the same time, Stalin has promised to launch an offensive called Braation against the German army in the east.

[00:38:28]this vast landscape, the two squeezing Berlin between them and the leaders of the countries uh the of the empires that are involved are looking to the future.

[00:38:41]I don't want to we're going to Yaltta and January 45. But before we get there, uh professor, my concern now is the Chinese. They're watching these resources being poured into Europe. And one of the themes of your book that you explore very carefully is the clear racial racist language that is used at the time. We joke sometimes about it calling it white man's burden and laugh at them but they thought it was a real policy. What do we say right now about race and the contest as they enter the battles of 1944? What can we say about how Russia and France and Britain and the United States saw their burden?

[00:39:27]So I think at this point in time the allied all of the allied leaders see themselves as um as waging a civilizational struggle. Uh and this is this is actually true for the Axis as well, right? They all see themselves as fighting this war for for you know what type of civilization will uh will dominate the globe uh in the post-war world. and their conceptions are heavily racialized. Um, this is especially clear with the Axis powers, right? Uh, Germany wants to create a new racial order in Europe. Uh, Japan wants to create a new racial order in in East Asia where there will be kind of a hierarchy of Asian races and and and the Japanese will sit at the top of that. Um, you know, part of this project involves driving the European powers and the Western powers out of Asia. So, you know, the the the propaganda is essentially Asia for Asians that Japan is is pushing. Um, but of course, you know, Winston Churchill and the British want to maintain their empire and the British Empire is is is certainly kind of a racially organized political system. Um, and the United States has its own view of of of what it wants the structure of power in the postw world world uh to to look like.

[00:40:49]Um, but there are racial components as well. And we we always have to remind ourselves that, you know, at this point in in time, the American military is is is segregated. Um, this is still uh back home in the United States. Um, you know, the the Jim Crow system still exists. Um so a lot of ideas about uh racial hierarchy and um sort of notions of of different civilization be it you know Chinese civilization or or or or Anglo-Saxon civilization the these are still um you know even in academic circles these are still seen as as as fairly credible notions as we head into uh into the 1940s and it's really a lot of the fighting in the Second World War that um you know or the fighting and the experiences of the war and the Holocaust that um serves to discredit a lot of these notions of kind of eugenics, social Darwinism uh and and and u you know racial hierarchies that had existed in the 19th century world and and you know continue to exist as we get into the 20th century. really World War II that um that kind of sends this message uh to the peoples of the world that that this type of thinking um is is is is not a good thing and it needs to be abandoned moving forward >> and the British Empire in particular there is starvation in India for what at one point and Churchill uh does not address some of the cruelty that's directed against the colonial troops that enter into the battle. All these things emerge afterwards, I understand.

[00:42:30]But we both know about them here 80 years later. At the time, did the United States just look away or was there a complaint?

[00:42:42]uh at the time the the Americans are focused on winning the war and Churchill is able to make the argument that um that the you know as as regrettable as the famine in India which kills you know something on the order of two million people u as regrettable as that is um it's these sorts of things are necessary because of the global emergency that is the second world war and the Americans are not pushing very hard to change any of that um the Americans are are also very much on board with the idea that they want that the the highest priority must been must be to win the war. Um this you know this this also comes into um consideration when uh there are proposals to uh to to launch air strikes uh for instance in Europe to disrupt the infrastructure of the Holocaust, right?

[00:43:34]to to bomb the rail lines leading to the death camps and that sort of things to to to bomb the concentration camps, you know, may maybe Allied air power should bomb Awitz, right? But the determination is that the highest priority must just be on winning the war as quickly as possible. Um rather than um fighting with these sort of more humanitarian concerns in mind. um the I think some of this sort of notion of of the military as kind of an instrument of promoting humanitarianism is also kind of a product of the postw World War II world.

[00:44:08]Um and it's something that that would have seemed kind of strange and foreign to uh to a lot of the leaders fighting World War II.

[00:44:16]>> I'm going to stay with the race themes that are quoted everywhere uh in the Pacific. the war against the Japanese, was it presented to the American people as a war against a race?

[00:44:31]>> In the more virulent uh rhetoric and and propaganda? Yes. Right. So there's there's a lot of of pretty pretty terrible um you know propaganda that uh is is being circulated in the United States that you know you you see these editorial cartoons that are depicting the Japanese as as rodents uh that have you know these these horri these horrible racial stereotypes. Um so this sort of the the racial dynamics are particularly um prevalent in the Pacific War. uh and you know historians like like John Daer have done very good work on this um there's some of that in Europe as well um but most of what we see in Europe is is coming from the the Nazis right and the sort of the the Nazi conception of of um the sort of you know the the fairy tales of like you know the Aryan races the Nordic races and the Mediterranean races and and that sort of thing. um that that sort of nonsense. Um but in the Pacific um certainly in in the the case of uh of American soldiers and and Marines on the ground in the Pacific, uh this is this is something that you see in in a lot of the a lot of the firsthand accounts. Um there's, you know, racial epithets and it's it's both sides as well. the Japanese um you know have their own uh their own propaganda and their own you know racially uh inflammatory depictions of of the the Americans and the westerners as well.

[00:46:05]So, you know, the the the racial dynamics uh in in the actual combat are are are very clear to see >> and the Chinese Chiang Kai-shek I asked whether he resented the resources that were going to Europe and not to him, but there was a race element also between China and Japan and the Japanese had taken advantage of it in their cruelty towards the Chinese. Was it vice versa?

[00:46:32]Uh it was um you know the the there there were you know there's widespread sentiments among the Chinese population um you know that that that Japanese are racially inferior u but of course the power dynamics in um in in the the war in Asia are moving in favor of the Japanese right it's it's Japan that has invaded China uh and Japanese leaders see their actions in China as part of a colonial war, right? They're they're fighting to colonize large sections of coastal China. Um mainly northeast China or Manuria as it was called at the time.

[00:47:13]uh this is seen as the sort of as as Japan's um kind of manifest destiny to put it in in terms that you know the American public would this is this is the the land that Japan is looking at uh on on mainland Asia and seeing this as you know this is the territory that that we need uh to support a larger population to grow more food uh to build a large industrial base u and it's in that light that they they see themselves as colonizers and they see the uh the the local Chinese population as essentially a nuisance to either be subjugated or driven away. Um so the the sort of racial dynamics that are are playing out in in the war in Asia are much uh more kind of familiar as you know colonizer and colonized uh because that's exactly what Japan is trying to do. Japan is trying to build its empire in Asia.

[00:48:13]>> It takes an arduous journey by a very ill and weakened president to reach Alta. Starting in January, they reached it in early February and drive across a landscape that is well, it's apocalypse now.

[00:48:28]>> It's wrecked completely by the Germans in their fight for the UK for Ukraine.

[00:48:34]And they go to a palace that is primitive beyond belief.

[00:48:39]But there's there's one restroom for all of them. All of these dignitaries from from the the three allies, America, Britain, and Russia. You notice China's not at the table. The author conference requires a great deal of attention, however, because it's here that Roosevelt made it evident that he was romancing Stalin. To what end, professor? What was the president's ambition?

[00:49:09]So by the time that YLA comes around, um it's no longer a question of whether or not the Allies will win, but a question of when they're going to achieve victory. And it's with that in mind that Roosevelt um is is going to he's he's going to go to Yalta in an attempt to get the the British and the Soviets on board with his vision for a post-war world. Um that vision was articulated in very very rough terms with the Atlantic charter.

[00:49:47]Um, but really what Roosevelt wants is a world, a post-war world that is characterized by cooperation between the victors of of the Second World War, um, between the Allied powers. And he understands that the Soviet Union is an incredibly powerful player on the world stage. it has been transformed into an incredibly powerful player because of the Second World War and the military buildup that uh that that the Soviet people were forced to undertake in order to defend themselves against against Nazi Germany.

[00:50:23]Um and he knows that that there will be no post-war peace without Soviet involvement. Uh he also knows however that the Soviet Union is an incredibly oppressive authoritarian state uh that is currently you know by the time that Yel Yelta comes around is is currently occupying almost half of Europe. Um and that there's really very little that the Western Allies can do to control anything that's happening behind Soviet battle lines. Right. So in in whatever territory the Red Army occupies, the Soviets are going to basically be able to do what they want and the British and the Americans can't do hardly anything about that. And so so Yaltta is is really um unfolding in in the full knowledge of these dynamics.

[00:51:21]Um, a lot of what they're they're they're going to discuss at Yalta concerns the what essentially becomes the post-war division of of Europe. Um, Stalin uh clearly wants a buffer zone.

[00:51:34]Uh, he wants uh what you what the Soviets call friendly regimes in Eastern Europe. At this point in time, it's not entirely clear what he means by that. Uh officially uh the Soviets are saying that they support um you know democratic elections in the Far East or not in the Far East in in Eastern Europe. Um but what that really means is elections that will um more or less be guaranteed to bring uh pro-soiet regimes into power.

[00:52:04]And this is something that Churchill is very upset about. It's something that a lot of American leaders are very upset about. this sort of knowledge that the Soviet Union is extending uh its control over these countries of Eastern Europe.

[00:52:15]Uh but the the naked reality is that the Red Army occupies these ter territories and the Americans and the British are in no position to really push back in any meaningful way. Um, and so, you know, post-war historians have looked at Yalta as this sort of moment of capitulation where the Western powers kind of appease the expansion of Soviet power into Eastern Europe. But in reality, the Soviets were already there and uh the uh the Americans and the British couldn't really do much to change what the Soviets were going to be doing. I believe it's that you also you make the observation that Churchill is has become very much the odd man out representing a very weak hand at the table because it was important to them if I read you correctly what battles they were winning. It was keen on Stalin to emphasize how he was how his suk forces were rolling up what is now Poland while the Americans were struggling after the battle of the bulge in December of 44 into February of 45. still cleaning up.

[00:53:21]They were involved in very bad fighting in very bad conditions in winter in Europe and Stalin was bragging about that. Roosevelt saw that. It didn't bother him. Do we know?

[00:53:34]>> It didn't bother him that Stalin was bragging about >> it didn't bother him that Stalin was saw this himself as supreme. He was very much holding himself as the winner of the war even though the lead lease is what kept him alive. But Roosevelt never brought it up.

[00:53:52]>> Um, I think I I think Roosevelt actually was more in line with thinking at this point in time that in fact it Stalin was right that the the Soviets had been the ones to really turn the tide in Europe.

[00:54:08]Um, the Soviets had undertaken the lion share of the work in defeating Nazi Germany. um the Soviets were the ones that were were going to ultimately reach Berlin. Um they would suffer the casualties, right? Uh so so essentially during the war the Soviets um uh they incur about 80% of Allied casualties in Europe, right? So So four out of every five allied soldiers that die in in Europe are are Soviets. um or you know there's but it's actually Soviet citizens that bear bear the brunt of of that. Um and the uh the Red Army is responsible for inflicting between 70 and 80% of the casualties that the Germans are going to face. So um and and the Americans know this and and Roosevelt knows this.

[00:54:59]Roosevelt knows that Stalin and the Red Army have done the lion share of the work in defeating Nazi Germany. And um what is left for for him to do in meetings like the one that took place at Yalta is to make sure that the United States will still have some influence in Europe and that Europe won't be completely dominated by the Soviet Union. And that's I think to a large degree that's what uh that's what Overlord is about. That's what the Battle of Normandy and the liberation of France is about. It's about sort of ensuring that Western Europe does not fall under the control of the Red Army.

[00:55:36]It's not about defeating the Germany anymore. Germany is going to lose the war uh by this point in time. Um it's about carving out whatever influence uh the Western powers can still hope to have. at the Yaltta conference in February of 1945.

[00:55:55]Roosevelt's at the table, Sal's at the table, Churchill's at the table, and their staffs, their general, chiefs of staffs are around them, navy and army, marshals there, for example. We're looking at the post-war world and we talk about the American Empire looking at the Russian Empire. But the British Empire saw very much that there were there were deals that could be made with Russia and Churchill was keen-minded to maintaining the British Empire but also offering to Russia Eastern Europe or parts of Eastern Europe. I've never been sure what Churchill's ambition was in trading. Can you help me, Professor?

[00:56:36]>> So Churchill um at Yalta recognizes, as you said before, he has a weak hand. Um the British Empire has been eclipsed by these two superpowers. Uh this has become increasingly evident over the course of the war. Uh and at this point in time, it's very clear to everyone at Yalta that it's the Americans and the Soviets that are going to be the most important players in the postwar world.

[00:57:02]Um that being said, there's still a lot of details to be worked worked out. Um perhaps the most contentious issue is the question of Poland. Uh and Poland is incredibly important um for for the war.

[00:57:19]It's incredibly important for for Churchill. Uh because after all uh Poland uh and and the um the the German invasion of Poland, which was accompanied by the Soviet invasion of Poland, which is an aspect of the war that that often gets forgotten, but it wasn't just the Germans that invaded Poland. It was also the Soviets in 1939.

[00:57:38]Um, but this is the incident that uh that led to the outbreak of World War II in Europe. Um, this is it was the invasion of Poland uh that led uh Churchill or not Churchill at this point in time, but led the British and the uh the French to declare war on Germany. uh and the prospect of surrendering Poland uh to the mercies of the Soviet Union uh at Yalta sits very poorly with Church Hill. Um so he's very concerned about that. He's aware of the uh the the massacre of Polish officers uh that took place at Kitin Forest um by the Soviet Union. Um so there's there's no reason that anyone has to think that the Soviet Union is going to treat uh the polls well. Um the you know the fallout from the Warsaw uprising and the Soviet failure to aid the um the Polish resistance in Warsaw u also is is is wrankling uh the both British and the Americans. Uh and so so Churchill feels like it it's a matter of honor. Um it's a matter of uh of of of staying true to commitments to the Polish resistance.

[00:58:51]Right? Poland never surrenders uh during the Second World War. France surrenders, but Poland doesn't. Poland fights. Uh and Poland um you know, by some metrics has uh the largest share of its population killed in the war. Uh so the notion that they're going to just abandon Poland um is is something that really bothers uh Churchill. The reality, however, is that the Red Army occupies this territory. And unless the Americans and the British want to actually go to war against the Soviet Union, there's probably not a whole lot they can do to shape Soviet actions in Poland. And this is something that I think Roosevelt and and a lot of his of the American adviserss understand. Um, you know, beyond that, um, the the other thing that that Churchill is trying to do at this point in time is is reach some sort of agreement with Stalin uh to divide up Europe, right? And this is sort of an old uh kind of an old-fashioned balance of power diplomacy uh that he's engaged in. There's a famous uh episode um where they they they write up something called the percentages agreement. And this is about dividing the Balkans between British and Soviet influences. And so essentially, you know, Churchill takes out a small piece of paper and scribbles out um you know, the names of, you know, Greece, Romania, uh Hungary, um and essentially um you know, says, you know, to you know, Stalin, you'll have 90% influence in Romania, we'll have 10% influence, we'll have 90% in Greece, you'll have 10 um you know, I could be off with the numbers, but it it basically a division of influ of a division of Eastern Europe into spheres of influence. And this is this is something that had been talked about by a lot of different western leaders.

[01:00:48]George Kennan actually is uh who's at this point in time a a foreign service officer in Moscow. He's pushing for this. Um so there there's a line of thinking that is that essentially says look uh the old uh real politic you know balance of power makavellian uh international relations are the way that the world works uh after this war is over. We're going to have to hammer out some sort of agreement with the Soviet Union. So we might as well do it now.

[01:01:21]Roosevelt in the more idealistic leadership in the United States is uh they essentially recoil at this idea, right? What they want is a completely transformed international order. Um it's you know you can think of this as more sort of Woodro Wilson type ideas in that sense. Um and so Roosevelt is very reluctant to engage in any of this sort of horse trading with Stalin and the Soviets. And so they don't hammer out precise agreements as to, you know, exactly where the lines are going to be.

[01:01:54]And because they don't do that, uh, there is, um, you know, these issues are going to be figured out, um, later on during the Cold War.

[01:02:03]>> The war an enormous number of casualties in 1945.

[01:02:08]The Americans press on to Germany and the Americans press on to the Philippines and then are anticipating having to inter invade the Japanese home islands and take an enormous number of casualties. I believe there were 3/4 of a million purple hearts manufactured anticipating the violence that would come from the invasion of Japan. At the same time at the Pastum conference, there was a secret that wasn't a secret, the Trinity test in July, middle of July 1945.

[01:02:41]And Roosevelt is gone. He died in April.

[01:02:45]>> Harry Truman is the president. And for the first part of Potam, Churchill is there. And then an election is held and Churchill's rejected by the British people as not up to date for what they need, which is a beggarly country now needing everything from food to hospitalization to someplace to live after the war. So a man named Atley takes Churchill's place as prime minister. Stalin, however, is front and center. So, two of the three major powers that started the war are not at the table. Your measure, professor, of Stalin's ambitions at this point, did Churchill's absence and Roosevelt's absence encourage him to grab even more?

[01:03:31]I think I think there's some truth in the idea that, you know, that Stalin saw this as his moment. um due to the departure of of these other leaders. But if particularly in the case of Roosevelt, I think that Stalin is actually is genuinely worried about what the Americans are going to do after Roosevelt because he while I don't think he was entirely charmed by um by by Roosevelt, you know, and his his his attempts to to kind of win over uh the Soviet leader. I I think that Stalin um understood and and Soviet officials understood that Roosevelt was um was was more amicable and and he Roosevelt wanted a working relationship with um with Moscow whereas a lot of American leaders were much more hostile to Moscow. And at this point in time, you know, the Soviet Union has suffered enormous casualties. Something on the order of 27 million Soviet citizens are going to die in the war. Uh to put that into context, uh the Americans and the British lose about 400,000 each. Uh the Soviets lose 27 million. Uh so the Soviet Union is devastated at the end of the war. Uh the Red Army is incredibly powerful. Uh it is far more powerful than the Western counterparts uh in Europe. Uh but the Soviets are exhausted and they don't really want to keep fighting. They don't want another war.

[01:05:04]uh they don't they certainly don't want a war with the Americans um and and the British right after the the defeat of of of the Germans. They're also concerned that the uh the Western powers are going to make a deal. Um it sort of back away from this unconditional surrender idea and make a deal with with Nazi Germany.

[01:05:25]Uh and there are in fact plans um or proposals to do this. they're not they're not followed through, but uh you know it is it is a sort of contingency plan. Um and so so Stalin is really I think primarily focused on making sure that he secures his um his sphere of Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, which he pretty much already has with the Red Army. um and that he doesn't completely destroy a working relationship with the United States. Uh that's his priority that those are the two top priorities. And then the third one is that he is now uh gearing up to enter the war against Japan. And this is one of the reasons why Stalin uh you know was not able to meet with Shanghai or rather why he refused to meet with Shanghai is because uh throughout most of the war the Soviet Union wasn't actually at war with Japan.

[01:06:25]Uh but at at this this sort of final stage, Germany has been defeated. Uh and all of uh all of the allies are sort of looking toward the question of how they're going to actually force Japan to surrender. Their experiences with Japan, particularly American experiences fighting Japanese soldiers on these Pacific islands, have been incredibly bloody. Um Japanese uh garrisons are refusing to surrender. They're fighting, you know, sometimes to the last man. Uh they're um they're launching kamicazi attacks. This is an incredibly bloody uh and grueling phase of the war. Uh the the the the Germans uh basically fought to the very end. Um right, the Soviet Union had to essentially destroy Berlin to to finally defeat the Germans. And now it's looking as if uh the Allies are going to have to do the same thing against Japan. And so everyone uh everyone at Potm wants to end the war as quickly as possible. Uh but they also want to do it on terms that are favorable to their own national interests.

[01:07:33]>> I'm speaking to Paul Thomas Chamberlain.

[01:07:36]The book is Scorched Earth, the global history of the world, Second World War.

[01:07:41]When we come back, the bomb. I'm John Bachelor.

[01:07:48]I'm John Basher with Professor Paul Thomas Chamberlain. Very helpful book, Scorched Earth. Helpful for right now.

[01:07:57]This is not ancient history. This is the world you live in. It was carved up by the victors in 1945.

[01:08:05]That would be the Soviet Union, the British Empire, and the American Empire.

[01:08:11]And Paul, you you end the book very very fetchingly that the war did not end imperialism.

[01:08:20]Imperialism ended the war. Please explain, professor.

[01:08:26]So I would argue that the conventional interpretation of the second world war is that this is the this is the incident in world history that finally d it drives the final nail into the coffin of colonial uh empire, right? Colonialism essentially dies uh in World War II. It had it almost collapsed in World War I, but it's really World War II that that finally ends all of that. Uh what I argue in the book is that um what we really need to to do when we think about World War II is is see this not as a as a conflict uh that is being fought by various nation states but rather a conflict that's being fought by empires.

[01:09:11]Um the axis powers are aspiring empires.

[01:09:15]Uh the British Empire is the largest empire in the world. The French Empire is the second largest empire. The United States has an empire. uh the Soviet Union uh is kind of consolidating control of its empire and reclaiming parts of the old Russian empire. Uh and China is is sort of re-emerging as an imperial power on the world stage. Um and it's it's only through the process of the war that these sort of older imperial powers like the British Empire are um are sort of laid low. uh German, Japanese, and uh and Italian imperial ambitions are are just gutted. They're they're completely destroyed by the Allied powers. And um the the the strain that is involved in fighting the war uh forces American and Soviet leaders to build their nations into what we now understand as superpowers. And these superpowers are essentially um you know kind of neoimperial players on the world stage right they they are not primarily focused on gaining control of overseas colonies the way that the old 19th century empires had been rather they don't need this uh the the new military technology that they've developed um you know the the creation of you know u sort of high-tech weapon systems aircraft carriers atomic bombs, long range bombing, uh the perfection of amphibious warfare, uh has essentially rendered oldfashioned colonies obsolete.

[01:10:54]Uh and it's, you know, it's the battles of the Second World world war that reveal that, you know, the British Empire simply can't cut it anymore. You know, the British can't turn the tide of the war on their own. They need the Americans. They need the Soviets. And so moving forward um the question is the the the sort of structure of of global power is not going we're not thinking about a world divided into various spheres of influence where you have you know you know five or six you know notable imperial powers in their colonies uh dictating the course of of world affairs rather you're going to have two major kind of planet dominating powers in the case of the Soviet Union and the United States these are powers that have planetary planetary force projection capabilities uh and they're going to use them to shape the entire international order if if they're given the opportunity. And so that's really the situation at the end of World War II.

[01:11:51]>> What's striking to me, professor, and I accept your case because I very much very much appreciated this way of thinking globally. What's striking to me is how the bomb doesn't change their ambitions nor their successes. It's just another weapon.

[01:12:08]>> Correct. It's just another weapon at the end of World War II. Um, and I think that's one of the that's one of the most persuas persuasive explanations as to why Truman allows the bomb to be dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? Is because it's a weapon and it was used, it was developed to be used in wartime.

[01:12:30]And so there was really not much question among the Americans as to whether or not they would ultimately use it if it was ready before the end of World War II. I also, you know, happen to think that um that had the bomb had the atomic bomb been been ready before the surrender of Nazi Germany, I believe it probably would have been used against the Germans as well. Um, it's only after the end of World War II that uh the the sort of the the notion that atomic weapons are weapons that can never be used again um begins to to to kind of emerge on the world stage and and and shape um thinking about about the future of nuclear warfare. Is it a surprise to the British Foreign Office to Atly to Parliament that they get elbowed aside by the Americans so quickly after the as the war ends once the Japanese war is over? The British are sort of they participated like volunteers but they weren't not integral to the American success.

[01:13:34]>> I don't think they're surprised. Um and if anything, you know, you you you find a lot of instances of British soldiers or or rather British generals and commanders and and and political leaders um making reference to this idea that the British are functioning as Greeks to the American Romans. That's >> right.

[01:13:53]>> Right. So um so the British have sort of figured out how to do this type of um the British have figured out how to function as a world power under the terms of kind of pax bratonica. Uh pax bratonica is falling apart and is being replaced by pax americana and the British see themselves as acting as advisers to this new pax americana. And this has been something that um that that leaders like like uh Churchill foresaw in the inter war period. Uh the British understand that the Americans are are growing quickly, that the the the United States is likely to overtake them. And so there is a push among many u many political leaders in the UK uh to ensure that um that they're going to be working alongside the Americans and they're going to kind of kind of guide the Americans as as Pax Americana uh emerges. And so I don't think it's a surprise. I think that that they expect it to happen. Uh they're not happy about everything that does take place, but um yeah, they they see themselves as advisers to the new American empire.

[01:15:04]>> Scorched Earth. Paul Thomas Chamberlain is the author, Global History of World War II. Again, I repeat, having read this book, the problems that we have today were right there in 1945. They couldn't solve them then, and we're not solving them now. The Soviet Union becomes the Russian Federation.

[01:15:23]The United States of America and Britain become NATO. And the whistle blows. Paul Thomas Chamberlain. I'm John Bachelor.