Senzo Meyiwa Murder Trial | 28 May 2026

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:05]on behalf of Mr. >> May I also confirm my behalf of Mr. and Mr. >> Okay. This is the I confirm my presence on behalf of accuse number four Mr. Misa. Thank you.

[00:00:20]>> Thank you. I confirm my personal >> Yeah. As it pleases the court, my lord.

[00:00:28]My lord, I do confirm that we've got a witness outside. However, she is seped speaking.

[00:00:34]>> She's seed speaking. So, I've alerted Mr. Jonasi and then he's gone out to try and find out if there's a language practitioner for Speedy. He says that today there are only four interpreters and all of them are are held up in courts. uh in this division my lord. So he's trying to phone perhaps the magistrates courts next door to find out if there's no separate interpreters. So he has asked my lord that we uh stand down until half past 11 for that purpose. My lord >> yeah okay fine but I hear that where's Mr. Jonas?

[00:01:21]>> He has gone out for that for that purpose. Yeah, I'm told that there's a funeral, what do you call it? Funeral what?

[00:01:28]>> Memorial service.

[00:01:29]>> Memorial service.

[00:01:30]>> And they've requested us to agend at about half what?

[00:01:35]>> At 21 minutes.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah. Apparently.

[00:01:39]So, what are you saying?

[00:01:41]>> Spirit guy or girl?

[00:01:44]>> Yes.

[00:01:44]>> Is he an interpreter in the high court?

[00:01:47]We don't want somebody who has never interpreted in the high court. I >> I'm not sure the calib person that Mr. is trying to >> must be. So, >> and so what are we going to do with the the >> the memorial service? We agendas one.

[00:02:04]They say they request that we should agend at half past one. They having a memorial service.

[00:02:12]>> My lord, he said we should agend at quarter 21 until 2:00, my lord, for that purpose.

[00:02:18]>> So, I'm not sure whether with that in mind and are starting at uh half 11. Uh >> yeah, fine. Okay. So, we must agend until we hear >> from the interpreter. Yes.

[00:02:33]>> Interpreter is competent >> as as the court pres.

[00:02:37]>> Okay. Fine. Mr. Where's the interpreter?

[01:20:50]>> He is here.

[01:21:05]I spoke to him in chambers. I know him for a long long long time. But uh I want him to display or show us his certificate so that the full.

[01:21:25]Just show them your certificate.

[01:21:42]Yeah. Three to to my brothers here.

[01:21:57]Okay. Are we starting after this?

[01:22:10]>> I don't want have to see this. I know this gentleman for 100 years.

[01:22:15]>> Yeah. No, that's okay. It's just that the problems we had the other day.

[01:22:22]>> Yeah. No, no, no.

[01:22:26]>> Thanks. Thanks.

[01:22:43]>> Please call for me. Sergeant Kaka outside here.

[01:23:52]Yeah, just for the records.

[01:23:59]>> Just for the record, place your name on on record.

[01:24:03]Valentine Harris the interpreter for today.

[01:24:07]>> Okay.

[01:24:07]>> In this matter of you are another.

[01:24:15]>> Thanks.

[01:24:16]Yeah. So they witness in my lord. Thanks. Thanks.

[01:24:45]Uh May the witness be seated. Hello Lord.

[01:24:53]>> Yes. Yes. He may be. What's wrong with the asking for the name of the witness?

[01:25:00]>> Yeah. I'm sorry.

[01:25:15]>> Thank you. Thank you sir. Now good morning ma'am.

[01:25:21]>> Morning. Now ma'am I see that you are wearing a face mask on and just for the record you have placed you've told me earlier on that you are a bit under the weather with influenza correct correct Yes.

[01:25:52]>> Nonetheless, ma'am, thank you so much for availing yourself and making time to come and assist the court.

[01:26:02]>> Now, ma'am, you are a member of the South African Police. Is that correct?

[01:26:09]>> Yes.

[01:26:13]What is your current rank?

[01:26:18]>> Sergeant.

[01:26:20]>> Are you based at any police station?

[01:26:26]>> Which one?

[01:26:28]>> Valeria police station.

[01:26:29]>> Valeria police station.

[01:26:36]>> How long have you been stationed at the Valeria Police Station?

[01:26:42]15 years.

[01:26:43]>> 15 years.

[01:26:48]Now ma'am, please place your history within the employee of the South African police on record from the time you entered the academy until you graduated from academy.

[01:27:11]2011 24th January.

[01:27:16]>> 24th January.

[01:27:17]>> Yes.

[01:27:17]>> I resumed duties in the year 2011. The 24th of January 2011 college for training. I went for training in Ptoria West 2012 as a student Valeria police station. In 2012, I started as a student at Valeria Police Station in 2012.

[01:28:01]>> And after the studying, I became a constable at Valeria Police Station.

[01:28:12]2022 1 April on uh the 1st April 2022 rank.

[01:28:23]>> I was promoted to a sergeant rank >> at the same Valeria police station.

[01:28:38]Now ma'am, I'm going to hand you a document and I'm going to request you that you identify that document for me.

[01:28:58]Identify that document SAP 15.

[01:29:06]>> This document is called SAP 15.

[01:29:13]SAP 15.

[01:29:14]>> Would I be correct ma'am to say that an SAP 15 is a duty roster of police officers that are on duty at the station on a particular day.

[01:29:36]You know that's correct. You are correct.

[01:29:49]If you can place on record the duty register for that appears in that SAPS5 >> what is the date and what time did your shift start on that day?

[01:30:16]2021 0207 >> 2021 >> 0 >> 0207 >> it was on the 7th February 2021 when I started >> shift to 6 in the morning >> the shift started at quarter 26 in the Morning 545.

[01:30:47]>> Yeah. 1,800 hours >> and it ended up at 1800 hours.

[01:30:58]And if you can place on record what is noted at serial number 05.

[01:31:18]05 the entirety of serial 05 ma'am >> yeah posting assistant >> it's a posting of constable cents assistant assistant >> and that constable tag will be you is That correct?

[01:31:51]>> Yes.

[01:31:55]>> And you were posted as a CSC assistant.

[01:31:58]Uh for those who do not know, the CSC will be the client services center at the police station. Is that correct?

[01:32:06]>> CSC era client service center police station.

[01:32:12]>> Correct.

[01:32:22]And what does a CSC assistant do? What did you do in that room on that day?

[01:32:36]charge office.

[01:32:37]>> The C at CSC is we are assisting at the charge office.

[01:32:51]>> Okay. I'm going to hand you another register which I'm going to ask you to identify.

[01:33:15]Can you identify the register in front of you ma'am?

[01:33:20]>> Occurrence book.

[01:33:23]>> Yes, it's occurrence book. We shortly say we call it OB.

[01:33:31]station.

[01:33:36]>> Now, if I can direct you to entries 356 and 361 uh of the occurrence book uh 356 and 361 uh it will show cell inspection. Did you participate in conducting cell inspections on that day?

[01:33:58]>> 361 and Yes.

[01:34:06]I see. Yes.

[01:34:07]>> Did you conduct cell inspections on that day?

[01:34:15]>> Yes.

[01:34:25]On 356 with whom did you conduct the cell inspections? 356 inspections.

[01:34:35]>> I was with Sergeant Mudgeaw.

[01:34:43]>> And on entry 361 with whom did you conduct 361?

[01:34:50]>> With Sergeant Mudaw.

[01:34:57]And can you tell me in brief uh what do cell inspections entail?

[01:35:03]>> Cell inspections.

[01:35:16]>> We go to the cells to check what the condition of the detaininees.

[01:35:27]Now ma'am in brief uh without much ado the reason why we called you here is the following.

[01:35:38]>> There is accuse number two in this court whom we call Mr. Yes. I hear you.

[01:36:02]And on this day, the 7th of February 2021, he had been held at Valeria Police Station in the cells on and off for a period of over 3 four months.

[01:36:32]February 2021.

[01:36:38]Now there are two police officers that are involved in the investigation of the case against Mr. Antanzi namely Sergeant Mana and Muani.

[01:37:09]Do you know those two officers and Sergeant Muani?

[01:37:17]Yes, I know them.

[01:37:21]>> Can you tell the court how do you know them?

[01:37:28]police station.

[01:37:29]>> I know them when they came to the police station.

[01:37:41]>> They came there to come to come and see uh number two.

[01:37:50]How often would you see them coming to the station to uh see accuse number two, the suspect?

[01:38:08]once.

[01:38:16]Now the essence is this. Both officers say they received information from Valyria that Mr. was in possession of a cell phone in the cells.

[01:38:40]No, no, let me correct. They got information.

[01:38:46]Number two, we are sorry.

[01:38:50]Do you understand that?

[01:38:54]>> And and and that on the day uh they then descended upon Valeria police station >> on the day on the 7th of February 2021 they went to Valeria police station February police station sorry on the 7th on the 7th of February 2021 27th of February And when they arrived at Valyria, they introduced themselves and they were accompanied by two officers from Valyria police station to go to the cell where Dani was held.

[01:39:40]And when they arrived at the cell, they asked that we hear that you've got a phone on you. produced that phone number and from the blankets and the mat that was allocated to they then found that cell phone number now as a person that visited the cells and you were would I be correct that on the day amongst other people like you've already stated you were working with Sergeant Mudau that is correct.

[01:41:24]Now for the sake of completeness, Sergeant Mudau has testified in this proceedings in this honorable court Now, as a person that was working as a CSC assistant on the day, did you or are you one of the persons that accompanied Sergeant Maba and Muani Truman's cell phone where a cell phone was I mean to the cell where a cell phone was allegedly retrieved from his cell.

[01:42:18]Oh no.

[01:42:34]And like I've already alluded to that Sergeant Muda who has testified in this court and I must be fair to you. She also denied that she is one of the persons that accompanied Sergeant Maba and Sergeant Muani to the cells where allegedly a phone was retrieved from the cell of Mr. Anthony.

[01:43:17]And if we look >> sorry, >> she just noted that ma'am for >> I want to hear >> for for the sake of the record. The record does not uh note body movements. You need to be vocal about your answers.

[01:43:47]Keep Yes.

[01:44:10]And now if we look at the SAPS15, the original the first document that I handed over to you. Uh like I've said, Sergeant Mudau was the CSC commander and then she also did inspections, cell inspections with you according to your evidence, right?

[01:44:31]15.

[01:44:44]Yes.

[01:44:56]Now if we look at the SAPS 15 uh just beneath your your name entry serial number 05 serial uh serial number 06 there's a constable SF Mabila who also was an a CSC assistant. Do you recall working with that officer during your shift?

[01:45:33]Yes, he was.

[01:45:40]And after that, for completeness sake, ma'am, from entry 7 to 12, those are the people that were not working within the CSC or in the cell complex. Would I be correct?

[01:46:01]That's correct.

[01:46:11]>> Now, ma'am, this story of and I'll I'll say the story this story of Mr. Danzi having a cell phone in the cells on the 2nd of February 7th 7th of February 2021. Do you know anything about it?

[01:46:44]I know nothing about >> and in your experience and having the same scenario that I've just explained to you, police officers arriving at the police station on information that a suspect is is in possession of a cell phone. Let's take this scenario. If indeed a suspect had a phone on him and it's retrieved by investigating officers in the presence of local police officers in the cells, what is the procedure for retrieving that cell phone before it even leaves the Veria SAPS?

[01:47:34]Number two, proceed exhibit. If the phone was found, it should have been booked in the SAP 13 as an exhibit.

[01:48:26]Fore! Foreign! Foreign!

[01:48:57]If if that be the case and after the booking in of this item in in the SAP 13. It it must also be noted in the OB book.

[01:49:23]if I out then >> yeah if the the item is found and is booked in the SAP 13 and if it's to be moved taken away from the station it must be booked out in the same SAP book, >> it must be written in. Yes, it must be booked out in the OB and station.

[01:50:27]Okay. And ma'am, you are in possession of an occurrence book right in front of you for the seventh. I'll give you whatever time you need to look into that occurrence book to determine whether or not the same procedure that we say especially pertaining to the OB because we we are not in possession of the SAP 13 register. whether such a a a a an entry is made about a cell phone being obtained from a suspect, especially Mr. on the 7th of February, 2021.

[01:51:31]I'm done.

[01:51:33]>> Can you identify such an entry?

[01:51:41]No entry.

[01:52:05]as the court places. My lord, thank you ma'am. Those are the aspects that I wanted you to clarify for the honorable court. Thanks for making time, my lord.

[01:52:12]Thank you so much.

[01:52:33]question.

[01:52:34]>> Okay. Yes, sir.

[01:52:36]>> Thank you, my lord. I have no questions.

[01:52:38]Thank you.

[01:52:38]>> No questions.

[01:52:41]>> No questions.

[01:52:43]>> Any questions? My lord, do we do have questions for this sergeant?

[01:52:56]Ma'am, um can you tell the court what is the difference between a sale visit as well as a sale inspection inspection?

[01:53:22]Cell inspection is when we go to the cells and the detainees are then searched.

[01:53:51]And to check whether the cells are in good condition Sell visited is when members of the church the church office >> they go to the cells >> to check how many detainees in the are in the cells >> and whether there are any complaints from any of them.

[01:54:48]So ma'am, can you tell the court? Sorry, Sergeant, can you tell the court on the 7th of February 2021, did you and Sergeant Mau conduct a cell visit or a cell inspection?

[01:55:01]>> 7 February 2021.

[01:55:10]myself and did the sale visit visit visit.

[01:55:33]Okay. And then during the sale um visit, will you be able to see a phone that is concealed under blankets?

[01:55:51]No.

[01:56:06]and tell the court what exactly happens during a cell inspection. How many members are involved during a cell inspection?

[01:56:15]>> Cell inspection.

[01:56:21]inspection.

[01:56:23]Inspection if need be that the cells be visited.

[01:56:40]members of the police officers, even those stationed at the same station and even if they are not stationed there, they may be they may be called upon to do that inspection.

[01:57:13]In your experience, have you ever been involved in a sale inspection?

[01:57:23]No.

[01:57:34]And then in your line of duty, have you ever heard of any items that were recovered during a self inspection?

[01:57:55]Oh, >> no.

[01:58:07]For what people's are inspections done for what people are sell inspections conducted inspection inspction Uh cell inspection is do is been done to to check the condition of the cells and if necessary the searching of the detainees is also done during the inspection.

[01:59:06]and and and then during the search what will be the police looking for exactly?

[01:59:27]to check whether the detaininees have any unneeded uh things in the in their possession.

[01:59:38]For example, cigarettes.

[01:59:59]And then just take me now to Vera Police Station on that SCP 15 document. Who was the cell guard of the date in question?

[02:00:23]There's no cell cut on this document.

[02:00:38]Who was responsible for for the cells?

[02:00:52]office. All of us who are at this church office has that responsibility.

[02:01:08]Who was giving keys to the cells?

[02:01:13]church office.

[02:01:14]>> They were at the church office.

[02:01:17]>> They were kept there.

[02:01:20]>> So from that document, you cannot tell who was having the physical key.

[02:01:41]We do not have the keys in our possessions at all times. We keep them in a locker at the church of peace.

[02:02:07]from the charge office to the cell. What is the distance?

[02:02:21]>> It's not very far. It's just at the back of the church. The the cells are at the back of the church.

[02:02:37]So are you telling this call that when you are all at the CSC, the cells are at the back of the CSC with no police official in attendance at the office at the Valeria Police Station. We do not have a permanent sale.

[02:03:34]Can you confirm that in Valeria at Valoria you do an hourly cell visit?

[02:03:40]Correct.

[02:03:47]Yes, I do.

[02:03:57]And then if someone was to come to this court and say at Valeria police station there were nothing like that. What would be your comment?

[02:04:19]>> No, I'll argue with him. It is. There are such things.

[02:04:38]Accuse number two told his court that the only place or prison where he was visited by members and asked if he had any complaints. It only happened at Ramo China prison as well as Hosim. Nothing like that happened at Valeria police station. What would be your comment?

[02:05:02]foreign.

[02:05:32]Do you are you still with the issue of cell visit? That's correct. Yes.

[02:05:40]visit.

[02:05:42]>> I'll argue with him because at Valeria we do an hourly cell visit.

[02:06:12]Did you personally during your sale your sale vis number two if he has any complaints?

[02:06:26]number two.

[02:06:31]Oh, what? No.

[02:06:46]Why not?

[02:07:00]on that day. I did not ask.

[02:07:07]>> I want you to go to that OB book now for the 7th of February 2021.

[02:07:12]>> 7th February 2021.

[02:07:14]>> Yeah.

[02:07:15]>> Are you on that page?

[02:07:16]>> Yes.

[02:07:19]>> Okay.

[02:07:22]any visit any hour?

[02:07:28]Yes. Did ask him if he's got any complaints?

[02:07:41]Yes, he did.

[02:07:52]So that was that in your presence?

[02:07:57]Yes.

[02:08:00]>> Did he report any complaint to you?

[02:08:06]>> No.

[02:08:10]See, we are talking about accuse number two. Do you see him here in court today?

[02:08:14]Number two.

[02:08:22]>> Yes, I see him.

[02:08:27]Okay. Starting from the right, my right.

[02:08:30]I'm facing that side. Going to be your left and the other side. Are you able to see him?

[02:08:52]And then look at him again.

[02:08:58]Is that how you know him from the time he was at the house?

[02:09:10]Yes.

[02:09:18]>> And then in terms of the appearance space >> face this is very unfair questioning and procedure. We are now conducting a doc identification. The last time the witness saw Mr. Antanzi was in 2020.

[02:09:41]People grow up features change. I don't know how Mr. Tanzi looked in 2020. Nor do I my learned colleague my not this procedure now is very precarious because we are now doing a doc identification via this witness expose factor 5 years 6 years later the courtes I just want the witness to comment on how the accused person looked like at the time he was at the cells from the 2nd of July to the 7th February 2021 only.

[02:10:22]My lord, we we we we we are now going on to the sea on on a fishing trolling expedition. What will the relevance of this demon?

[02:11:04]Yes, Mr. I I will I will go through this point in a different way. I will show the witness an exhibit. and then I'll invite her to comment on it.

[02:11:16]>> What type of exhibit?

[02:11:18]>> Um it's a photo album um prepared.

[02:11:22]Uh it is photo that was downloaded from the cell phone of act number two that was done by war officer DD4B.

[02:11:33]>> Yeah. Let's hear Mr. Ramir what you say.

[02:11:37]>> I don't know what the purpose of this is. That's the first relevance.

[02:11:42]Secondly, my not this exhibit uh DD4B Mansi says the photos are his but during the downloading it changed the date. So the dates that are displayed in the meta data here are not the dates when the photos were actually taken. So that will also be taking us nowhere. My lord, I don't know really what what what this exercise is all about in relation particularly to this witness. She never took any photos. She does not know any photos of Mr. Antani Man. The people that have testified about these photos weren't offic How is this witness going to assist the identification or nonidentification of Mr. Tanzi in relation particularly to the narrow aspect from which she's here to assist the court?

[02:12:35]>> Yeah. Okay. The question is disallowed because the witness has already said he recognizes Mr. Nanzi and he knows him.

[02:12:45]That's sufficient.

[02:12:48]>> So may I proceed my >> Yes.

[02:12:50]>> Thank you.

[02:12:51]Can you just interpret?

[02:12:54]>> Can you interpret the interction between the court as well as Okay.

[02:13:21]The question is disallowed my lord or disallowed.

[02:13:48]Ma'am, do you know where was the accused on the 20 24th of September 2020?

[02:13:56]24th September 2020.

[02:14:01]No evidence before this court is that the accused on that day was at Valeria cells.

[02:14:23]I was not on duty.

[02:14:32]and know where the person was on the 12th of November 2020 November 2020.

[02:14:46]No, I do not know >> evidence before this court is that the accused on that day was at Valeria cells 12 November I won't be able to can know whether he was there or not because we work we are working shifts we ships and an evidence before this code is that the only time the accused person left the cells of Valer when he has to appear at BB magistrate court as well as the court in Taban.

[02:15:56]Not for your >> I do not know. I hear you.

[02:16:21]Now, can you take the code inside the cells of Valyria? How do they look like Back door and >> back door.

[02:16:42]>> Back door.

[02:16:43]>> The cells at Valeria has got the back door >> where the where there's entry for the detainees.

[02:17:07]And there's a door from the church office which we may use to get into the cells from the church office.

[02:17:26]Just take us inside the actual now.

[02:17:42]prisoners visit and in the cells. There is a place where the visitors are are kept.

[02:18:06]And at the back of the cells is a kitchen.

[02:18:13]Just tell the court inside the cell in which was housed. How does it look like?

[02:18:34]There's a first door to enter.

[02:18:43]And there's another door, the second one where the detainee where he sleeps.

[02:18:55]And then the shower.

[02:18:58]>> And there's a toilet and a shower.

[02:19:15]Yes.

[02:19:19]>> And then the words that they printed.

[02:19:24]>> Yes.

[02:19:31]>> You recall the color of the walls in 2020.

[02:19:40]I cannot recall.

[02:19:48]>> And then the floor.

[02:19:51]>> How is the floorment?

[02:20:02]>> And then where is the light situated inside the floor?

[02:20:13]And then the first where he sleeps there are lights and on top there's a >> first entrance >> there's a seat where lights can get in.

[02:20:43]Thank you ma'am. And then they are waiting um child prisoners. Do you assist them to do laundry?

[02:21:04]No question.

[02:21:23]And then to do you ask them to trim their hair as well as beard?

[02:21:40]And then during the time number two was at Valeria, did he receive any visits from members of the family or anyone?

[02:22:04]I do not know about the other days but whilst I was on duty there was he did not get any visit from outside.

[02:22:27]And I I want to be fair to you ma'am.

[02:22:31]Sergeant Muham testified in the court and said that a cell phone was recovered from accuse number two on the 7th of February 2021. He did not mention the time as well as whether it was during the morning shift or the evening shift.

[02:23:06]I hear you.

[02:23:23]And he further testified that after the recover of the cell phone from number two, he did not book the cell phone in any SAP 13.

[02:23:46]Yes.

[02:23:58]What is important is that the cell phone was recovered and the cell phone belongs to accuse number two.

[02:24:06]>> Were you aware were you aware of this before I told you?

[02:24:09]>> No. Objection.

[02:24:11]Objection.

[02:24:14]That's a wrong it's a wrong supposition and I think it's because of technological inexitude the state says what is important is that a cell phone was covered is putting that as a matter of fact that is according to muane according to muane a cell phone was covered and we're busy with that phone I mean with that investigation so the state shouldn't put it as a matter of fact that a phone was covered But there hence I say it could be maybe terminological inexitude according to what moan told this court is that the sful must cover that is what this witness needs to be told not to put it as a matter of effect.

[02:25:21]What's your response, doctor?

[02:25:24]My lord, I I do not understand the objection.

[02:25:29]However, I will rephrase ma'am.

[02:25:31]According to the version of the state, a cell phone was recovered from number two.

[02:25:54]and accuse number 23 is indicated that the Samsung J5 it is his cell phone number Samsung J 5.

[02:26:08]>> I hear that First of all, please any correct supposition. I've never personally myself or on behalf of Mr. Antani said a cell phone that was obtained by Muhani at Valyria of which we don't know the chain of evidence belongs to Mr. Dani because that cell phone is nowhere in the registers to show the Point is physically does it belong to Mr. Nani >> physically?

[02:26:47]>> He says the cell phone >> physically according to you.

[02:26:51]>> Which cell phone?

[02:26:52]>> The one he says it was recovered. Does it?

[02:26:56]>> Let's put it like this. Has it ever belonged to Mr. Danzi?

[02:27:00]>> I don't know. The one that was obtained from Valeria.

[02:27:02]>> I don't know the one that from Valeria.

[02:27:06]>> Doctor, they say they don't know where the phone is. Which >> my my lord I will >> allegedly in the in >> in Valeria.

[02:27:17]>> I will find that part of the record where we we get all this.

[02:27:32]>> Okay. on page before we agend my lord >> 15th April 2024 >> was cross examination of mi >> by >> by advocate it says advocate but we know it's Mr. >> Right let me start on line number three so Mr. Advocate Ram. So it is issues of chain of custody. This documentation that records who handled the phone caught. Yes. Yes. Advocate when where caught. You are right. It is your client's phone. That is all I want to know that the very one he says he found there. Advocate. Yes. But not in Val.

[02:28:20]The J5 and then interven. Yeah. Fine.

[02:28:23]Advocate.

[02:28:24]The Samsung J5 that was downloaded. It is my client's phone.

[02:28:30]Can I join my >> Lord?

[03:46:20]version. It was recovered on the 7th of February from the cell number two.

[03:46:36]>> Yes.

[03:46:38]And then I must qualify it according to the state version because that was the bone of the objection by the defense.

[03:46:56]Okay.

[03:47:10]Thank you.

[03:47:12]So my question to you is do you know that Samsung according to the version of the state J5 was recovered from accuse number two?

[03:47:31]No.

[03:47:39]>> And is it correct ma'am that on the 7th of February you started your ship from 6 in the morning until 1800 p.m.

[03:47:49]Correct.

[03:47:56]Yes.

[03:48:01]And then you do not know what time Sergeant Muer visited police station on the 7th of February 2021.

[03:48:25]And and you cannot say with certainty that a phone was never recovered on that day.

[03:48:47]Now I will hand you a copy of exhibit NN.

[03:49:04]Can you identify that document?

[03:49:09]OB book.

[03:49:11]>> Yes, it's an occurrence book.

[03:49:18]>> And then do you recognize the date on the document?

[03:49:24]>> The date. The date.

[03:49:28]>> Yes.

[03:49:30]>> Can you please the date on record?

[03:49:35]2020 May 31st >> 31st May 2020 >> according to that entry. Can you remember if you're on duty or not?

[03:49:53]I was on duty.

[03:49:59]Where were you? Who pushed you guys?

[03:50:06]I cannot remember who was your CSC commander for the night or the nights.

[03:50:17]>> Captain Raot.

[03:50:19]>> Captain Raot.

[03:50:24]>> Do you recognize Ause number one before?

[03:50:27]>> Number one.

[03:50:28]>> Accuse number one.

[03:50:37]I cannot recall him.

[03:50:44]>> Now let us then focus on that um OB book um entry number 2186 01 0 0. Do you see that?

[03:51:00]Yes.

[03:51:01]Can you please what is written on that entry?

[03:51:04]>> Cell visit.

[03:51:05]>> Cell visit.

[03:51:07]>> Captain Ramata and Constable Tak found two awaiting trials with no complaints and constable Shaka.

[03:51:31]And then the last um annotation there on that entry where it says no complaints. Can you just read in full ma'am?

[03:51:41]>> Sell visit. Captain Ramata and Constable Shaga found two awaiting trials with no complaints.

[03:51:57]And then are they referring to you?

[03:52:03]Yes.

[03:52:07]And then who signatures appearing there?

[03:52:17]>> I cannot see it properly but it's not one of Taka.

[03:52:25]Can you explain what have occurred before this entry could have been made?

[03:52:41]that call for speculation. The witness has just indicated that the signature which is there does not belong to kaka and the state as are you the kaka that's before the witness says no that signature does not say kaka so the state says then to the witness can you explain what could have happened that's speculation ma'am are you the referring to in this entry Did you visit the sales at 010 a.m. on the 31st of May? 31st of May 2020.

[03:53:27]Yes. Yes.

[03:53:37]So I want to know what happened during this visit at the sales that led to this writing here.

[03:53:58]as the sales are visited all hourly. So I I found it necessary to go and check the sales.

[03:54:24]Yes. And then when you get to the sales, what happened in the male cells?

[03:54:36]Is the one who entered.

[03:54:47]I stood at the main door.

[03:54:56]>> Yes. Mhm.

[03:55:02]>> He checked them and spoke to them and we then left the cells.

[03:55:11]And what questions did he p to them?

[03:55:20]I could not hear the questions as I was standing at the main door.

[03:55:31]Ma'am, have you ever conducted a cell visit yourself?

[03:55:37]Yes.

[03:55:41]And then when you conduct the cell visit, what questions do you put to the prisoners?

[03:56:04]And then let's proceed to entry to 18780140 >> on still on the same page.

[03:56:15]Can you place that on record?

[03:56:19]>> 0 >> 0 140.

[03:56:23]>> Yes, I see. Can you place it on record?

[03:56:31]Sergeant Mara from National Commissioner Office investigation with the following Timber >> case number 217 of 3 2019 Timber >> Tbisa >> Tbisa C sub4156 of 52020 sub 14 A Romeo 5086208 J50 warrant of arrest no injuries correctly detained here.

[03:57:19]Oh, let me read you. Okay.

[03:57:28]It reads this way.

[03:57:32]Arrest >> arrest agent Mah >> Maha >> Mola from National Commission office case u case investigation with uh the following Muzi September >> CIA cast number 219 9 stroke 03 stroke 2019. Tbisa South SAPS 14 stroke 156 stroke 05 stroke 2020 SAP 14 yes uh R508 6208 J5 warrant of RS >> J50 50 >> J50 sorry J50 warrant of arrest office.

[03:59:12]14015605 2020. SAP 148 508 6208 Thank you ma'am. And ma'am who who writes on this book writer is the one who wrote this. I do not know who it was as I do not have what >> SAP 15 >> SAP 15 SAP 15 and then on the next page it's indicated no injuries and then yes And then do you know the South African Police Service standing orders when it comes to injuries and detention?

[04:00:48]Do you proceed to detain a suspect if he's presented with injuries?

[04:01:07]And then from this entry to 1878, will you say was injured when he was brought to the south?

[04:01:23]He was not injured.

[04:01:36]And then can can you tell the court between the investigating officer as well as the people that are responsible for the sales let's say the people from the CSC who is responsible for looking up the accused person?

[04:02:07]CSC CS C is a >> CS C are the responsible persons to lock up the detain.

[04:02:30]And then when the investigators um get to the with an arrested person, do members of the CSC attend to the processing and detention of the suspect?

[04:03:05]member of the church office.

[04:03:08]Yes, a member of the church office will accompany the investigators to the sales.

[04:03:35]And then let me read to you what accuse number one said before this court under oath. Then you'll comment if you agree or you disagree with him.

[04:03:49]Proceedings of the 5th of February 2024 on page 38 uh let's start on paragraph 9 Mr. All right. Just take the call to Valeria Police Station. At the time when you arrived, when you were booked in, were the cell masters attended to your booking in? Those people that are assigned to book in out the suspects the cell masters interpreter.

[04:04:15]What about them? Sorry, Mr. Gomezu. Did they participate in your booking inside the police station? Let me read the last entry. Accused one. My lord, I did not.

[04:04:26]I was not part of any of that or I was not involved in any of that where they did something in my presence. What happened is that I was taken by my from the vehicle took me straight into the set and lock me up there.

[04:04:58]All right, just take the the Valeria police station police station at the time when we arrived when you were booked in the cell masters attended to your booking Those people that are assigned to book in and out the suspect the cell number masters and then interpreter.

[04:05:44]What about them?

[04:05:53]Did you participate in your booking inside the police station?

[04:06:09]And my lord, I did not or I was not part of any of that or I was not involved in any of those work. They did something in my present.

[04:06:30]What happened is that I was taken to by the vehicle and took me straight into the cell and took me up there and locked me up there.

[04:06:56]number one station.

[04:07:04]>> What I can say is that number one is a trans atria police station.

[04:07:26]Number ladies.

[04:07:57]member of the office >> which means they won't proceed with the sales without the sale of the charge office to theelves a permanent member as we do not have a permanent permanent member who's always at the sales church.

[04:08:35]>> Is that all Christian?

[04:08:39]>> Yes.

[04:08:40]>> So, do you agree with what he says on that record?

[04:08:46]>> No.

[04:08:49]I do not agree.

[04:08:50]>> I do not agree.

[04:08:52]>> Just inter miring the same time as Mr. Jonas.

[04:08:57]>> Oh, okay. No, I did not agree. That's the answer.

[04:09:02]>> Okay. Thank you.

[04:09:18]And then you you said the person that writes on the OB book is the CSC scriber. Correct?

[04:09:28]>> CSC.

[04:09:32]>> Yes. He was the one who filled in the OB.

[04:09:41]And then is it the same person that made the entry? Entry number 2186 010 0 this entry >> again.

[04:09:52]>> Yes.

[04:09:58]Now let's then revisit the record of the 28th of October. 25 number one.

[04:10:13]Okay.

[04:10:17]>> No, no, I'll give you the record, man.

[04:10:19]I'll give you the record. And then from paragraph 10, it says, okay, let me start from paragraph five.

[04:10:28]Don't get lost. Mr. Baloy. All right, if we can get back to exhibit NN, there's an entry to 1878 at 0140. This is on Sunday 31 May 2020. You see the date there at top, it says the day of the week date. So, Sunday 31 May 2020. And the serial number is 2187* 0140. The note is as follows. Transitioning it says arrest and there is a cell phone number of Sergeant Maha. It says Sergeant Mahola from National Commissioner's Office called case investigation unit with the following moist case 217 of 3209.

[04:11:06]It says SAP 1415520.

[04:11:09]It says SAP 14A R508 6208 the J51 of arrest and it proceeds on the following page. No injuries correctly detained. And then this is the part where I want you to comment.

[04:11:25]Accused one now is accused speaking.

[04:11:30]It is Mulah who wrote here I do not know know my time of arrest or when I was detained at Valyria. Mah is the one that wrote in all this my details and everything by the J5 of arrest. I've never seen it.

[04:11:47]>> Let me finish. And on page 14 he wrote on her own that I I did not have any injuries. I was injured.

[04:12:09]>> Where where were you?

[04:12:13]>> Let me help you.

[04:12:13]>> Uh I I must I must I must tell you.

[04:12:17]>> It's fine. Let me just >> Oh, it's fine. It's fine. You you read too long for me. So I cannot explain everything what you have said because it's too lengthly.

[04:12:27]>> Okay.

[04:12:28]>> You can't expect me to say whatever you have said.

[04:12:37]>> This is okay.

[04:12:49]Please from here >> you >> from Mr. >> Mr. Paragraph 5. All right. If we can then get back to exhibit NN that is N3 21878 at 0140.

[04:13:11]This this is on Sunday 31st May 2020.

[04:13:15]You see the date there at the top. It says the day of the week and date. So it's Sunday 31st May 2020 and the serial number it is 2187. The time 01 4. The note read as follows. Transition. It says arrest and there is a cell phone number of Sergeant Mola. It says Sergeant Mola from National Commissioner's Office called Case Investigating Unit with the following.

[04:13:41]Moses Timber case 217 through 3 through 2019 Tbisa South. It says sub4 stroke 15 through 5 through 2020. It says sub4 A R508 6208 the J 50 warrant of arrest and it proceeds on the following page. No injuries correctly detained.

[04:14:07]>> Accused number one. It is Mola who wrote here and I do not know my time of arrest or when I was detained at Valeria. Moa is the one that wrote in all this my details and everything but the J51 run of arrest I have never seen it and he wrote on the own that I did not have any injuries I was injured question.

[04:14:42]2018 October 2021 14020.

[04:15:11]31207 29 South meeting SAP 14155 2020 SAP 148 5486208 Okay. Two questions from that. Did Sergeant write that entry?

[04:16:46]No.

[04:16:51]And then the next page where it's written without injuries.

[04:17:03]No.

[04:17:10]And and then the person who was busy detaining the suspect, does he ask the person to be detain detained whether they got injuries or not?

[04:17:27]Yes, they do.

[04:17:37]And then do they also check for injuries?

[04:17:43]>> Yes, they do.

[04:17:49]Thank you.

[04:17:55]Now let's proceed to the entry. Entry 218.

[04:18:00]Yes.

[04:18:04]Can you place that on record?

[04:18:07]>> You have 2188.

[04:18:09]218.

[04:18:10]>> Yes. Yes.

[04:18:15]>> Do you have it?

[04:18:17]>> Yes.

[04:18:18]>> Can you please record 218820?

[04:18:24]Sell visit. Captain Raata and constable found three awaiting trials without complaints.

[04:18:53]Thank you. And and and during this sale visit, did you personally go to the sales with Captain?

[04:19:07]Yes.

[04:19:12]Do you confirm what is written on this entry that they without any complaints?

[04:19:29]There was an issue in court when this entry was read into the record whether the three awaiting trials at that time included the accused before court. Can you just look at what is written at entry 218601 and check how many a trials were there?

[04:19:58]There were two awaiting trials.

[04:20:09]So after the arrest at 01 140 what was the total?

[04:20:17]There were then three Does that then include accused number one before court?

[04:20:29]Number one.

[04:20:34]Yes.

[04:20:55]And then can you tell the court ma'am when you do this hourly services do you do that in pairs or you do it individually in peace.

[04:21:28]Okay, let's go to the records of the of five February 2024 and hear what the accused says on page 39. Let's start from line number one.

[04:21:42]I'll try to be short.

[04:21:47]And this was the question by Mr. Gomezu.

[04:21:50]I understand you did you you said you did not see or you did not interact with the sale masters but was there any person when you were booked in that in that cell who asked you whether you assaulted or not Okay. Yeah.

[04:22:35]You had any medical problems, any injuries, any attention of medical doctor? Is there any person who was concerned about your medical condition?

[04:22:58]condition. Okay. Yes.

[04:23:12]And then this is what accuse number one says the person that came my lord although the person never asked me in the manner in which you are now asking me is the person that came in the morning and asked me if I was okay.

[04:23:54]>> So ma'am from that OB book from the time he was detained to the time you change shifts how many visits were there?

[04:24:06]visit mortgage for after he was detained.

[04:24:13]>> After he was detained, there are four cell visits.

[04:24:24]Is it then correct that only a person only came there to check if he was okay in the morning?

[04:24:33]song for the past year.

[04:24:36]Oh >> no.

[04:24:46]And then case number one continues. I then said that I was assaulted. Wanted to know who assaulted me and then said the police officers who brought me here.

[04:24:56]That person then said but I did not see those police officers.

[04:25:01]for Okay. Okay.

[04:25:23]Do you recall this incident?

[04:25:27]>> No.

[04:25:31]>> Did it happen?

[04:25:36]>> No, I do not know.

[04:25:41]>> What is the What does the standing order say? If a prisoner reports an assault to a police officer in the cell, there's a certain procedure to be followed.

[04:26:13]And what is the procedure procedure?

[04:26:34]Is there an entry for medical attention on the 31st of May 2020?

[04:26:56]No.

[04:27:01]>> So what happens to a police officer who has knowledge that a suspect was assaulted and then that police officer does not take any action?

[04:27:14]Those are the station commanders.

[04:27:42]Indeed.

[04:27:44]Let's see what happens now at entry 2189 at 3:00 in the morning.

[04:28:01]>> Yes, please. That on record, man.

[04:28:03]>> I entry 2189 3:00 sale visit constable and constable found three awaiting trials without complaints.

[04:28:23]Le and then when you say no complaints, what do you mean?

[04:28:44]not tell us or complain in any manner.

[04:28:55]You know the reason why I keep on repeating this without complaints is that before this court I know you might not know accuse number one told this court that he was assaulted at first ina by several police officers number one I hear youalling He further informed the court that he was assaulted by several police officers at Fores.

[04:29:57]And then lastly, he was assaulted by the same police officers um in deep police station.

[04:30:12]Okay. Okay.

[04:30:18]Okay.

[04:30:19]And then I see there at 0300 he said he was without any complaints complaint >> when we visited him. He did not lodge any complaints.

[04:30:47]And then let's move to entry number 2190. It's 0400.

[04:30:58]>> Yes.

[04:30:59]>> Yes, please. That on record.

[04:31:03]219 0400 cell visit Captain Ramata and found three awaiting trials without complaints.

[04:31:29]Thank you. And then were you part of this cell visit?

[04:31:37]>> No.

[04:31:42]And let's deal with the last entry. 21 91 0500 0 >> 21 91 050 0 S visit Captain Ramata and Sergeant found three awaiting trials without complaints.

[04:32:12]Thank you.

[04:32:15]And then is the same captain that you did at 020 years.

[04:32:27]Yes.

[04:32:35]I Okay, we done with this.

[04:32:45]Yeah.

[04:32:46]Let's look at entry at 0955 by the station commander.

[04:32:54]Yeah.

[04:32:56]Not sure if you'll be able to see the hand there.

[04:32:58]>> Zero.

[04:33:00]>> Um 3 the 1st of May 2020. 055 0955.

[04:33:25]>> What is this number?

[04:33:27]>> It's not visible. Let me let me show you. Okay.

[04:33:47]Yes. Yes. You see that entrance?

[04:33:52]>> Where?

[04:33:57]>> Yes.

[04:33:58]And then you know he station commander station >> and then he did a station visit there.

[04:34:19]Are you able to place what's written there on record?

[04:34:25]>> It's not very clear. Okay. Station visit canel toa be relieved on duty as per sap 15.

[04:34:35]You follow me?

[04:34:37]>> Yes.

[04:34:37]>> Awaiting trial.

[04:34:45]>> Yes.

[04:34:45]>> The the c was clean and neat.

[04:34:50]NSC.

[04:34:55]>> Yes.

[04:35:09]>> Okay. To be registered.

[04:35:14]>> Yes.

[04:35:20]No outstanding complaints.

[04:35:22]>> Yeah.

[04:35:41]You already of duty when this entry was made, correct?

[04:35:53]So tell me at Valyria, are the members of the investigating team allowed to remove the keys to the cells outside the police station?

[04:36:17]Keys to the No.

[04:36:29]police station and and and I want to then refer you to the proceedings of the 6th of February 2024 on page 52.

[04:36:40]Mr. Sib, I was asking questions. Those people that you were traveling with, were they also keeping the key to the cell?

[04:36:49]I was already and then number one okay responded now that's when I will invite you to comment I do not know but I will see them in possession of the keys and I ask who specifically And it is number one.

[04:37:38]They're the people that most of the time will be looking me up.

[04:37:56]So my question to you, did this happen during your shift?

[04:38:06]No.

[04:38:13]Is it any is anyone permitted to take the keys of the cells outside the police station?

[04:38:24]No.

[04:38:35]Are permitted to lock up number one?

[04:38:46]of the church office. Yes. Only in the company of the member of the church office.

[04:39:03]Members of the investigating team responsible for allocating a sale to a suspect or a prisoner.

[04:39:24]member of the church office.

[04:39:26]>> No, only the member of the church do And and then you indicated that the people that accompanies the investigating team to the sense is a member of the CSC. Correct?

[04:40:15]Do they via the CSC before they could go to the cells?

[04:40:27]When a motor got a detainee, we open the gates using the remote. The motor vehicle enter to the back.

[04:40:48]Thank you. Now let us go back now to the incident of the 7th of February 2021.

[04:40:56]>> 7th February 2021.

[04:40:58]>> Yes. Do you know the last time a cell inspection was conducted before the 7th of February 2021?

[04:41:14]February 2021. for accuse number two.

[04:41:17]>> For number two, >> visit or >> cell inspection.

[04:41:21]>> Inspection.

[04:41:23]>> No, I cannot remember.

[04:41:37]>> Just in conclusion, I want to understand this one. Is there a difference between sale inspection as well as a cell search?

[04:41:57]more good condition.

[04:41:58]>> Yes, slightly. So, cell inspection is when the cells are checked whether they are in good condition >> and then cell search.

[04:42:12]Cell search is when they go to the cells to search the detaininees.

[04:42:39]and then prior to the 7th of February 2021. Do you know when was the last sale search conducted?

[04:42:48]7th February 2021 search.

[04:42:55]>> No, I cannot remember. 27th of February 2021.

[04:43:04]Tell me searches are they done at random or there's a date where a cell search is conducted.

[04:43:18]anytime the sales cell search is conducted.

[04:43:29]>> You further testified that you know Sergeant as well as the late Sergeant Mena. Correct.

[04:43:47]And then you said you will see them during your shift.

[04:44:00]come in my during my shift. Yes, I'll see. And then >> How long is your day shift?

[04:44:13]>> Day shift 12 hours.

[04:44:16]>> 12 hours.

[04:44:24]And then in any given date for how long will you say and were at the police station?

[04:44:38]>> I can I cannot remember.

[04:44:46]Will you say they spend the duration of your shift for 12 hours at Valeria Police Station?

[04:44:56]for shift 12 hours. Oh no.

[04:45:08]>> And then you day shift. How many days was it?

[04:45:14]Two. Two days.

[04:45:22]Is there any stage um from the 2nd of July to the 7th of February 2021 where Sergeant Mu and Mena were there for 12 hours first day of the shift 12 hours second day of the shift?

[04:45:52]I cannot remember.

[04:46:11]station >> and then during your night shift two days as well correct you see them during your night shift if they came I'll see them there for the duration of the 12-hour shift.

[04:46:49]>> I cannot remember.

[04:46:57]>> Okay.

[04:46:59]was accused number two on any given date where he was not booked out for court there for the duration of your shift for 12 hours inside yourself. Number two, foreign.

[04:47:35]Yeah.

[04:47:52]And it's also correct now in conclusion that whenever he wants to be booked for court, it will be returned in the be book. Correct?

[04:48:04]Yes.

[04:48:19]>> Is the court decor.

[04:48:26]Now ma'am I'm going to ask you a few clarification clarification questions based on the questions that you've been taken through by my learned colleague. Now >> now you were asked to describe the cells the holding cells at Valyria SAPS and its fixtures what it contains.

[04:48:54]Remember that.

[04:49:11]Are there electrical plugs and electrical sockets within the cell holding cell itself?

[04:49:26]Are there any conceal are there any spaces within the cells where an object like a cell phone may be concealed for long?

[04:49:53]No.

[04:50:02]And regarding are there are there plumbing features basins and within the cells?

[04:50:19]And describe those are will they have spaces nooks and crannies where an item like a cell phone will be concealed in the basin or in the toilet itself?

[04:50:42]No.

[04:50:49]Now you were also asked about the cell searches. Remember that?

[04:50:57]>> Yes.

[04:50:58]>> How often in your experience are the cell searches conducted?

[04:51:11]It depends.

[04:51:17]It depends when we when there's a hand over it can be said. Okay, let's Within the four five months that Mr. Antanzi was held in detention at Vera, would a cell search have been conducted within that period?

[04:51:59]I cannot remember.

[04:52:11]Now let's move to a different aspect. It was put to you that Sergeant Muani says he found a cell phone within the cell that was holding the stanza. Remember that?

[04:52:32]Yes.

[04:52:40]Now I must be fair to you ma'am. Uh your station commander left tenant cola captaini who was the relief commander on the day on the 7th of February 2021.

[04:52:56]They've testified in these courts and they have both told this honorable court that as high ranking officials within that station they did not receive any report from any member at the Valeria police station that on that day the 7th of February 2021 a cell phone was found or casani number two.

[04:53:38]Okay.

[04:53:39]Okay. Okay.

[04:53:55]Okay.

[04:53:56]>> And regarding sales such as inspections and visits, you were asked of the items that are normally usually prohibited.

[04:54:05]You check for cigarettes. Remember that?

[04:54:27]And items for example ma'am like weapons, knives, nailers, cell phones, will they also be considered contraband or prohibited items within the cells?

[04:55:02]Let's move to a different aspect.

[04:55:05]It was put to you that Sergeant Muan says that when he he found a cell phone on the person of Unanzi on the property of Unanzi which are the blankets allocated by the state he stated that he did not enter that cell phone in the registers. Remember that?

[04:55:40]I remember that.

[04:55:54]Now ma'am, is it permissible under standing orders, directives and regulations for a police officer to seize an item of evidence from a suspect at the holding cells and not enter it into the official registers at the police station where it is allegedly obtained.

[04:56:32]No, highly improbable.

[04:56:49]And ma'am, if such a an object or item is seized and obtained without being entered into the relevant official registers at the SAPS.

[04:57:04]Uh what consequences does that have on the chain of custody of that item as a piece of evidence?

[04:57:13]No my lord these issues did not come out as a result of cross examination my lord and I do not recall asking the witness about chain of custody even the earlier question wherein I said it was m did not enter the exhibit into the sap I did not touch those aspects my >> let me respond to the latter one and we draw this one of chain of custody. The the the one whether Moane said I did not enter the phone into the register. I wrote it even in my contemporarious notes. It was the question that was posed but ma'am let's not waste time.

[04:57:58]These are matters of argument.

[04:58:01]Now let me come to this side. Now when Muani and Mabana as police officers that are investigating, they are not based at Valeria SAPS visit individually or collectively. Is there anywhere at Valyria where they signed to show that they had visited Yes.

[04:58:56]Where would they make the entries?

[04:59:01]>> There's a visiting book.

[04:59:10]And would that be a general public visiting book or a separate visiting book for police officers?

[04:59:29]OB >> is for for every anybody. But after they finish whatever they came there for, they must fill in the OB.

[04:59:52]Thank you ma'am. Those are the issues that I wanted to clarify with you as the court this morning.

[04:59:58]>> Yeah.

[05:00:01]I do have few question also to clarify the witness informed earlier and prior to the commencement of her testimony that she could be done with some She could be >> she's she she's got a flu bout.

[05:00:21]>> So I don't want to sound unkind to her, but I know >> what time is it now.

[05:00:32]>> 16 minutes past 3:00.

[05:00:37]>> Are you still comfortable, man?

[05:00:39]>> Was all right.

[05:00:40]>> Yes.

[05:00:41]>> Yes, I am. My lord, >> can you last another 15 minutes?

[05:00:47]>> Yes, I can.

[05:00:48]>> Yes.

[05:00:49]>> Yeah, I've got a fit lady.

[05:00:52]>> Yeah, she says she can last another 15 minutes.

[05:00:55]>> I'm going to be >> I'm saying I go beyond 15 minutes.

[05:01:01]>> No, just go for 15 minutes because that's what she says she's capable of sustaining.

[05:01:06]>> Okay.

[05:01:07]>> Yeah.

[05:01:18]Thank you ma'am.

[05:01:24]Thank you ma'am. This is not a cross examination but just clarification questions. Do you understand?

[05:01:35]Okay. Yes.

[05:01:37]>> Thank you. Now you told the court that um there would be searches in the cells >> in order to determine whether there no contraband or substances or items that are not wanted in the sense. Not so.

[05:02:08]Yes.

[05:02:18]Why would this happen?

[05:02:27]>> To check whether a suspect is not in possession of such >> items.

[05:02:39]Yes. The reason why should they not have this ma'am very short. Why are there why are titanis allowed to not allowed to have those items that you mentioning amongst them the the the the secret the mail keepers and all those items which are are not allowed in the cells.

[05:03:02]They may injure each other by using those items.

[05:03:13]>> Thank you.

[05:03:15]Now when investigating officers or whoever brings a person and in terms of the law that person is supposed to be detained in your cells, we're talking now about what do you do before that details?

[05:03:53]The police will come there office and book the the suspect in our in our books. Yes.

[05:04:10]Yes. Somebody one of the CSC member or two of the members to the cells >> then they will accomp be accompanied by one of the CSC members to the cell one or two of the members. Yes.

[05:04:39]When they arrive at the cells, the suspect is searched.

[05:04:48]Members of the church office.

[05:04:53]Members of of the church office will then hand over blankets and mattresses and show them the place to sleep.

[05:05:14]Thank you ma'am. You say the suspect before it is taken to gets locked in the cells that suspect gets searched. That's all.

[05:05:34]This court has had this many times that um in circumstances where that search that you're referring to now happens and the suspect gets to be and some items which is not a desirable item in the cell gets found in his possession or a possession that gets confiscated. Is that what you also know or do?

[05:06:08]Yes.

[05:06:21]No, I said this court has had many a times that where a person is to be locked in the cells that person get searched first before they get detained and if the item that are found in his or her possession that gets confiscated.

[05:06:44]>> Yeah. foreign.

[05:06:55]Okay.

[05:06:57]So yes Now, is that what should be happening in terms of the standing orders that we've been referring that have been referred to by the state?

[05:07:34]Yes.

[05:07:45]And many times this court has heard that those confisticated items get recorded either in the SAP 13 if it will eventually be used in as an exhibit.

[05:08:15]Yes, if it's an exhibit, yes, it's noted in the 13.

[05:08:31]Now if the item that is found in the possession of that detainee or the suspect is not something that will later on be used then as as an exhibit then that gets registered in SAP 22 which is referred to as a prisoner's properties register.

[05:09:02]SAP22.

[05:09:24]But beyond that there is this book that is is called SAP 10 which is an occurrence book. All that that I've mentioned gets recorded in that OP book in that occurrence book which is almost like a master plan like like like the nucleus of everything that is happening in the police station.

[05:09:57]Yes, they must be noted in the Thank you ma'am.

[05:10:09]Now the states in their cross examination to you they say Moane and Mena after having received information that accuse number two had a phone with him in the cells. They rushed there and they were able to find it.

[05:10:43]number two.

[05:10:50]Okay. Yes.

[05:11:04]Thank you, ma'am.

[05:11:06]And now against the background that you also confirm being the process that gets followed before a detainee get placed in in in in in the cells.

[05:11:30]the the the what what are probabilities what are probabilities that after that process that we just mentioned now has been followed that a prisoner that a detainine could still be found with a cell in their possession my colleague is inviting the witness to speak This is not a speculation madness. This is >> talking about probability.

[05:12:05]>> Yes.

[05:12:05]>> Yeah. So probability encapsulates speculative answers.

[05:12:14]>> Let me put it in a in a in a different way.

[05:12:21]The process that we have sketched to make sure that a person does not take into the cells something that is not allowed in the cells has been followed.

[05:12:42]Yes.

[05:12:53]Now that is if that process is followed to the latter of the law.

[05:13:16]Yes.

[05:13:16]>> Would a person still be found with a cell phone in the cells?

[05:13:24]Furthermore, the witness testified she does not know what time was the cell phone or the search was conducted. She was only there for our sheep.

[05:13:38]>> Mother probably the state does not understand.

[05:13:41]>> I understand >> and that is by design. The fact that they they they they pretend not to understand is by design. The evidence before this court is that Nanzi has been in that custody has been at Feria for more than five months. Four to five months.

[05:13:59]So what about that?

[05:14:01]>> That is the basis of the question that I'm asking.

[05:14:03]>> I'm just saying.

[05:14:04]>> Yes. So the misunderstanding is by design.

[05:14:09]>> Is it?

[05:14:10]>> Yes.

[05:14:12]But nonetheless, thank you ma'am.

[05:14:15]The state is saying that is speculation.

[05:14:18]But I trying to make a proposition that uh contraband can be smuggled into the police station.

[05:14:29]>> No. No. No.

[05:14:30]>> Because it can be. Everybody knows that it can be.

[05:14:33]>> No, I do not know.

[05:14:36]>> I'm not.

[05:14:36]>> Okay. Let me tell you about something you may know.

[05:14:39]>> Nelson Mandela smuggled >> Long Walk to Freedom.

[05:14:43]>> Yes.

[05:14:44]>> It's about 800 pages.

[05:14:45]>> Yes. using Maharaj. Yes.

[05:14:48]>> At Robin Island.

[05:14:50]>> Yes.

[05:14:51]>> Doesn't that tell you something?

[05:14:54]>> I'm I'm I'm hearing that for the first time.

[05:14:56]>> For the first time. Okay. Get get educated.

[05:14:59]>> So, it it is possible to smuggle.

[05:15:01]>> No.

[05:15:01]>> People wait. People smuggle contraband at the police station.

[05:15:06]>> Yes.

[05:15:07]>> Putting by eating it. Swallowing mandre tablets.

[05:15:10]>> Yes.

[05:15:11]>> Inside their >> Hello. Just just stand up ma'am.

[05:15:15]>> Okay.

[05:15:16]Just I want to see her. Haven't you heard about that?

[05:15:23]>> I call them people people swallowing contraband meaning tablets or other forms of tablets in in a in a duct of a of a lung of a of a rubber and selling it. We've never I've heard about this.

[05:15:52]We all know about it. We read about it in the press.

[05:15:57]So, it is possible. That's why the Department of Justice Department of Correctional Services conducts periodic searches, surprise periodic searches.

[05:16:06]And I'm told and advised that people also smuggle television sets into the cells. This is job television set into the cells. You have never heard of it.

[05:16:23]>> TV whatever.

[05:16:27]>> I did not hear about TV.

[05:16:33]Okay.

[05:16:35]tomorrow.

[05:16:37]>> I'm not.

[05:16:38]>> Wait, what's the time?

[05:16:43]>> What?

[05:16:43]>> 1532.

[05:16:44]>> That's it. I said 50 minutes. I said 50 minutes. That's what I said.

[05:16:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. He knows. She's an intelligent lady.

[05:16:53]Tomorrow >> again.

[05:16:56]>> Okay.

[05:16:57]You know what? This is worrying me. Your brother. Do you have a brother?

[05:17:03]>> Yeah. You don't have you don't have >> I have >> Liuru who went to you don't have to answer anything he was amongst the first in controversies in the 50s >> to leave the countries that's not a guy >> is that that's a guy >> yes of course I don't