Inside the insidious world of romance scams: Kylee Dennis (Part 2)

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]I have a 23page Nigerian scammers playbook. So, and it starts off, you know, hi, how are you? And they have answers. So, if I'm engaging with a scammer now, I'll go onto the playbook and I will say, you know, what is your favorite sport? And you'll see it's a pre-formatted. I like to play tennis because we have a victim of a a client that is a widow. Okay, I'm a widow. Oh, a client's divorce. So, we're going to ask her some information about how did that all happen? You know, my husband cheered on me. Tip. Okay, now I can tap into that. It's not just that one person sitting in a cafe or in their garage at home. This is this is a welloiled machine. If you weren't meeting your quotas, you're you're beaten. You're electrocuted. Um they are held under armed guard that is run by organized crime and you will be working 16 17our days.

[00:00:55]>> They're virtually prisoners. Yeah. Human trafficking cannot leave.

[00:00:59]>> And if you do leave, >> you could be killed.

[00:01:02]>> Yeah.

[00:01:02]>> End of story.

[00:01:19]In part two of my chat with detective turned private investigator Kylie Dennis, we take an inside look at romance scams. Kylie reveals who's behind these scams, who is being targeted, and how we can prevent them.

[00:01:33]We also talked about the horrific treatment of people coerced into working these scams. I think you're going to be shocked by the magnitude of these crimes, but also learn a lot about what goes on in this growing world. Kylie Dennis, welcome back to part two.

[00:01:48]>> Thank you.

[00:01:50]>> Are you still saying it's a privilege to be here?

[00:01:52]>> It is a privilege to be here. I'm still excited. You know, I will talk underwater.

[00:01:56]>> How do romance scams typically work?

[00:01:58]Give us a like we we've heard in part one about your mom's situation.

[00:02:03]>> Just give us an overview of how how they generally start and play out. So you go onto a dating app. Yep. You pick your subject, the person that you are interested in. You will ask a question, you know, um, hi, how are you? You know, tell me a bit more about you. You'll start engaging with them.

[00:02:19]>> Um, and and I engage with scammers on dating apps a lot. So, >> and it's always photo with the on the always photo. They might have two or three. Y >> um and it'll just be, you know, an age, an occupation, maybe where they live, you know, Sydney or something like that.

[00:02:33]And a couple of you little bits of information about their interests.

[00:02:36]>> They're getting a bit better now.

[00:02:37]They're putting a little bit more information into their bio.

[00:02:41]>> So then you'll just say, "Hi, how are you?" You know, Steven, they go, "Hi, how are you, Samantha?" Um, quick question. And then they will say, "Let's take this conversation. Oh, do you have a WhatsApp number or do you have Telegram or Zangi?"

[00:02:55]>> Yeah. So, we'll go into an encrypted messaging platform.

[00:02:58]>> So, that that's the first red flag.

[00:02:59]>> Yeah. First red flag straight away. Even if they ask you, I want you to stay onto a dating app as as much as you can, but as soon as they push you onto that messaging >> platform, they start taking control and then you will spend your life with your phone in your hand replying back to them. Um, and that's your relationship.

[00:03:19]So, they will they will then take me over to that and then we will just start talking. So, I'm currently engaging with someone now, but we're doing it by email, but I've got a couple of different um scammers because the language is different and the way they're talking to me is different. So, that's two different scammers, you know, at the same time engaging with me. But most of my other times are always on Telegram or WhatsApp.

[00:03:41]>> Okay.

[00:03:41]>> A couple of times, Angie, but yeah, I don't I just use I say to them, I've only got Telegram or WhatsApp.

[00:03:46]>> Y >> we go on that and then we just start talking. They start sending photos, then they start love bombing. you know, you're beautiful. I love your eyes. Send me a photo of yourself. Just that typical language. And then they'll talk about their job. They'll talk about their family. You know, I have a daughter. She's in boarding school. I'm on an oil rig out in the middle of nowhere. And they'll start talking and they'll start then they'll start talking about their issues within their workplace.

[00:04:12]>> There's always like out on an oil rig or in Turkey where there was um you know an earthquake or always looking for a reason why they're not there. But yes.

[00:04:22]Yeah.

[00:04:22]>> Yes. And and look and the the question I say to everybody, >> why you went on to a dating app in the first place to meet somebody, correct?

[00:04:31]And you really wanted to go to the movies and out for dinner. Correct. Or on a cruise or whatever. Correct.

[00:04:36]>> Where is this person? Why are you engaging with someone who's apparently a civil engineer on an oil rig in the middle of Netherlands or wherever that they they're telling you that they work three months solid, which is not true how oil rigs work, >> but that's what you want to engage with.

[00:04:54]And I say everybody, that's your red flag because you went on a dating app.

[00:04:59]>> Yeah.

[00:04:59]>> To go out for lunch with somebody or to walk along the beach, but you're spending all your time on an encry encrypted message platform talking.

[00:05:10]That's not what you wanted to do in the first place.

[00:05:13]>> Yeah.

[00:05:14]>> Why are you doing this? You know, I want them to go, "Well, she's right. Why am I doing this? I really want to >> have someone cuddle me or hold my hand."

[00:05:23]that's what you want.

[00:05:25]>> Well, okay, if we're looking at the red flags, it's a fairly obvious one, isn't it? Just when you break it down like that, >> it's quite simple.

[00:05:34]>> It's simple in that if you're on a dating app, wouldn't the next step be um let's catch up for a coffee or something something like that.

[00:05:41]>> And I always say to one, if you and because I know I'm talking to scammers, cuz I do all the reverse image. No, this is when when you I don't want to sell you out as just someone desperate to find find love, but this is this is this is uh your business. The clients are coming to you with okay, they've been approached and and you're doing your uh your research.

[00:06:02]>> Yes. Yes. And look, there are investigations.

[00:06:04]>> I need to understand and I have, you know, I have a special phone and you know, certain identities and everything like that. I need to understand how scammers work. I need to understand their language. I just need to understand the process from point one to point Z. At what point? Um, are they going to ask me for money? Where are they working? Is there any new jobs that they're now undertaking? Like, I've had a lumberjack. I've never had a lumberjack before. Yeah. Which was interesting in California. Um, he turned out to be a 15-year-old Nigerian boy, which I at the end of the conversation, I did say to him, >> I I make up a story that I'm a journalist and I'm writing an article or some some some garbage. Um, so he sent me a photo and he explained, "I'm a 15-year-old boy. I go to school during the day and I scam at night because I have no money. And by the way, would you like to buy me a laptop?" Well, of course, I said, "No, I'm not going to buy you anything." Um, but yes, so I do that to learn >> their processes, you know, is anything changing? Is the script changing? What are they doing differently? and you say a script and and you've identified the fact that they're not readily available which is is there anything starting right at the start with the photos like is there anything a common theme you see in the photos >> look I always say if >> the photos look really good >> um and we go back to that halo bias you know we look at someone who's got a very good-look photo or a doctor or an engineer or something that has a really good profession we tend to trust that.

[00:07:36]>> Yeah.

[00:07:36]>> So I and I'm not saying that the >> ugly photos like it's it's a really hard thing to scammers will use beautiful looking people or beautiful photos and and they are whether they've been docked or whatever. That's my first red flag.

[00:07:51]The second red flag is how much information is actually in the profile.

[00:07:55]If there's limited information, >> just don't just don't go there. That's that's a red flag cuz if I'm wanting to look for somebody, I'm putting in divorced female with two kids, a cat, I love this, you know, here are all my interests, you know, blah blah blah blah. And that's what I would put in my dating if I was online dating >> as my fake profiles. I don't put that. I put basic information and then the scammers tap on to me and and then I know that they're scammers, you know?

[00:08:23]So, I mean, I've had real people, too.

[00:08:26]But limited information for me is a red flag.

[00:08:29]>> Yeah. Well, that that that m that makes sense. And the photos, well, I suppose it's a dating app, so people are going to put their best photos, so it's hard to filter from there. Although I there was a a girl I I knew that was going online dating and uh she was asking me for my opinions of uh the BS. I said, "Anyone that's got a photo with his shirt off and patting a dog, get rid of it." That's a red flag. That that was that was that was red red flag. That was the way I I helped her sift through uh sift through those.

[00:09:01]>> Okay. So limited information >> get you off the off the app onto the different uh communications >> straight away.

[00:09:09]>> Um not readily available.

[00:09:11]>> Yep.

[00:09:11]>> What's the what's the next move then? Do they get lovebombed with messages?

[00:09:15]>> Always. and and you get told how not that I'm saying that people aren't beautiful and all that but but you will be told that you are the love of their life. Um you know I may have lost my wife to cancer you know 5 years ago but I wish I'd met you before that because you are far more special than she is. So it's this intense love connection and I and I see how that works. I can see when if you've I had a I had a a victim who was a victim of domestic violence for 20 years and >> I could see how that lovebombing would work. And she said, you know, once I found out once I got involved and told her that she was a victim of a scam, she said, "I >> I still miss that that language. I still miss what he was saying, those virtual hugs. The money is irrelevant now. It's the virtual hugs because she'd always been told that she was worthless in her marriage.

[00:10:11]>> Yeah.

[00:10:11]>> And she was belted and, you know, really treated as we know, you know, DV victims are, >> but the scammer knew that.

[00:10:20]>> So, they tapped into that small piece of information because she had told them that she was married and was a victim of domestic violence. So, then the scammer utilized that. I I'm I'm seeing you're opening my eyes up to it and and taking away my judgment because when you you're saying that I'm thinking how the hell is someone saying yeah you you're the love of my life and you haven't even met and all that >> but you're looking at people that are on the apps to start with that clearly haven't found their their connection.

[00:10:49]>> So there's starting point degree of vulnerability. You don't know what the backstory is.

[00:10:55]>> And then we all love compliments. Like you can feed off it all day if people are complimenting you. Say, "Oh, this is making me feel feel good."

[00:11:03]>> So I I but the psychology of it and there is a real psychology to it, isn't how they just trap people in on it. And it's interesting because you can be taken and I call it that vortex >> you know and and we go back to you're a widow for example and you've lost your you know like say for example I lost my husband um and I'm a widow so yes I have you know I want to now find somebody so that is that first step of vulnerability you know it's that strength I mean Bnee Brown talks about vulnerability being a strength so you put yourself out there because you think oh I'm now wanting somebody to be part of my life the scammer knows that you are a widow because you put that in your dating profile. You say so tick right I've got so here's the first fishing hook right so I go in >> there's some sadness that comes from >> absolutely and then what the scammer does and go I am also a widow >> so now you've got something similar >> so then the scammer can now touch and now online there are scripts out there this is what and they call the victim's clients if you want to lovebomb a client this is what you're going to say >> so this is a playbook for scammers >> so I have a 23 threepage Nigerian scammers playbook. Yeah. So, and it starts off, you know, hi, how are you?

[00:12:18]And they have answers. So, if I So, if I'm engaging with a scammer now, I'll go onto the playbook and I will say, oh, okay, >> you know, what is your favorite sport?

[00:12:27]And you'll see it's a pre-formatted I like to play tennis because blah. And I'll go, okay, radio. I now know that he's got the he's got the playbook as well. So, I try to see the narrative.

[00:12:38]>> Yes. So, I can see what they're going to say. But that's what they're doing.

[00:12:42]They're using that playbook. Okay, we have a victim of a a client that is a widow. Okay, I'm a widow. You know, oh, a client's divorce, so we're going to ask her some information about, you know, tell me a bit about your you, you know, how how did that all happen? You know, my husband cheered on me. Tip.

[00:13:00]Okay, now I can tap into that. So, they just take those bits of information and then start creating that narrative. And once you're taken into this this world and you are isolated and I can feel it because some days I'm going >> when are they going to text me? I've asked them a question. I want them I want them to answer. I know I'm talking to a scammer. I just want to see what their next strategy is. Now, if I was falling for that, of course, you sit there with your phone and wanting that connection because now you're starting to connect with someone who's interested in you.

[00:13:37]>> Yeah. And but you fl if you start flirting with someone via text, it can become addictive, can't it? So, absolutely. And I can So, can I imagine I can imagine they're getting the rush of the excitement. He's contacted me again or she's contacted me again. And a little bit as it builds up a little bit of flirtation and uh yeah the connection >> and the and and and you you hit the nail on the head. If someone tells you you look great, >> you just go >> cool. Let's keep going.

[00:14:04]>> Oh, this is this I'm feeling a million dollars. And that's all they have to do is say, "Your eyes are beautiful. I love your smile." Now, if if you're And we go back to my DV girl, she didn't have any of that.

[00:14:18]>> So, okay. Yeah, I I can see it. see that and and and that's why I try to say to everyone, this is not about being stupid. This is about a background that someone's gone through. And I'll use my mom. My mom had been single for 20 years. So when Donald the scammer came in on and he was saying to her, I can't wait to spend time with you. We are going to go on a cruise. We're going to build this. And I could see all this love language and knowing what my mom wanted. This tapped into exactly what she was missing in her life. Yeah. And that's what they do. So, so victims aren't stupid. They're just listening to someone because why would they believe that it's a scammer?

[00:15:03]>> There's no reason for them to believe that.

[00:15:05]>> Well, I I I think they're in that vortex of of so looking for that companionship.

[00:15:10]And it is a private thing when you're first starting off a relationship. So, you're not sharing it with everyone. And uh >> yeah, I can and and yeah, with your mom, it's sort of even if it was a legitimate one, she'd be a bit hesitant in telling anyone that I'm starting to see someone. So I can imagine why they they'd sit sit on that.

[00:15:31]>> When does it go into uh okay, what how do they start getting the getting the money or or making a benefit?

[00:15:37]>> So they just start telling a story. So So they will start and it is drip feeding. They're not. I mean, I've had a few that have very been very quick, >> uh, wanting money straight away, but normally they will start with, and we'll use the oil rig for example. Um, look, I can't video call you. We've got a bit of problem with Wi-Fi. I can't get to my bank. Um, would you be able to just send me, you know, some money? The only way we can do it is through a gift card.

[00:16:03]Yeah. You know, oh yeah, how much do you need? Look, $30 would be all right. So you, you know, you hop off down to Woolly's, pick up your gift card, come back, you take a photo of the back of the the gift card with the code, and you send it to them, right?

[00:16:16]>> So it is that slow drip feed >> and that that could like I would imagine if I was trying to um create the narrative there. I'm on an oil rig.

[00:16:25]>> Um internet's down or whatever. Can't get access to my bank accounts, but it's my uh child's um birthday.

[00:16:33]>> I just need to send him send him something >> something. So, if you send me the gift card, I will then be able to think you're not asking, he's not asking the world. He's just asking for a $30 gift card.

[00:16:46]>> That's right. $30. And then that just slowly >> creeps up. You know, there's an urgency.

[00:16:53]Um I think one of the scammers said to me, "Look, I've got some problems with the tools that are on the the oil rig. I need to buy some extra tool." You know, like doesn't make any sense. But remember when you're involved with that person that does make sense because they have laid the foundations and now they're just slowly starting to build the house. So they have done that you know maybe been six weeks of laying or couple of months then all of a sudden they're saying I've got a problem with you know something to do with the workers and I need to do this and then all of a sudden you're then sending money or I've got this great investment opportunity I've just found out.

[00:17:31]>> Please don't tell anybody. this is just between you and I. So they then start feeding that part. So it's that >> they're drip feeding urgency and necessity and you're the only one that is going to be able to help me.

[00:17:44]>> Yeah. I I can I can see how it happens.

[00:17:46]>> Yeah.

[00:17:47]>> And I also like the internet and social media and that has evolved so quickly.

[00:17:53]>> People haven't caught up with it. And like I would not now I'm not that naive, but if someone's a photo, well that's a person, there's a photo.

[00:18:03]and trust it. And I would imagine from a generational thing, even older people would, well, it's online. I've seen his photos. He exists.

[00:18:11]>> And why would they question that?

[00:18:13]Because they're not inclined to question it. You know, maybe an 18-year-old or 20-y old would question more things online than what an older person, this is in the romance world. Yeah.

[00:18:25]>> They would look at that saying, well, that's a real person that has gone onto that dating app, has paid for that privilege to be onto that dating app, so they must be real.

[00:18:34]>> Okay.

[00:18:34]>> They don't think, well, how many people on this dating app is not real. Yeah.

[00:18:38]You know, and and don't get me wrong, all dating apps can have fake people in them. I mean, I I know there are some dating apps that have got, you know, the ability to be able to you've got to, you know, do a reverse tick image, but I've done that using my fake profile.

[00:18:53]>> Explain the reverse.

[00:18:55]>> So, what they've asked me to do on one of the dating things was to take a photo of myself, a live moving photo, and then they will verify myself to say that that photo is real. But the photo that's on my dating profile is is my photo, but it's been tweaked a bit through AI to make me look a little bit older and little bigger and all this sort of stuff.

[00:19:18]>> So, the two photos are not similar.

[00:19:20]Yeah.

[00:19:20]>> But the app has just tick the box to say self-verified. So, this is right. So, that looks legitimate.

[00:19:24]>> Okay.

[00:19:25]>> So, again, that doesn't actually work.

[00:19:27]There's some great apps out there now that I think that you actually have to do this. You've got to talk. You've got to show identification and >> different bits and pieces, but some of the basic ones you don't have to do that. I mean, some of the ones I haven't been able to get on, that's fine, which is which is fine, but scammers are a little bit better at manipulating the system than what I >> It's a different level on like on on the dating apps that um yeah, people I would imagine misrepresent themselves, but they're not after the finances, they're just after the short-term relationship.

[00:20:00]So there'd be a lot of that. So you push that aside. But the scammers are at a different different level, aren't they?

[00:20:07]>> They're they're at the pure evil level.

[00:20:09]Their their sole purpose is financial destruction. Yeah. End of and that's >> as distinct from someone on their I'm looking for a long-term relationship.

[00:20:18]Hey, can we catch up and want to sleep with the person that that night?

[00:20:21]Correct. You got that lot. But the scammers are patient.

[00:20:24]>> Yes. and that in their their preparation to drag it on, that would give comfort to people as well, I would >> because why would you question it?

[00:20:33]>> Yeah, they're they're talking to me every day. And the thing that we've got to realize, it's just they're not just talking to my profile, you know, my Robert and my Samantha. They're talking to >> half a dozen or dozens of other people.

[00:20:46]Oh, they they're they're having it's just continually, you know, and it's interesting because a couple of times I've actually when I've spoken to them, they've got my name mixed up.

[00:20:56]>> So, they've called me something else.

[00:20:57]So, that's a red flag.

[00:20:59]>> But I know that that's a red flag. But if if it was, you know, say it was my mom who really wasn't thinking twice about it and said, "Why did you call me, you know, Michelle?" They would go, "Oh, I'm so sorry. My mother's name or something."

[00:21:13]>> Absolutely. I I was just talking to someone else where I know, okay, now you're talking to Yeah, you've slipped up.

[00:21:19]>> And that's what we've got to understand.

[00:21:20]It's not just that one person sitting in a cafe or in their garage at home. This is this is a welloiled machine. This is whiteboards. This is we know that we can get us Aussies. We know if we go on this dating app, we can get this. and and see a dating app from a naive point of view, I think you'd be looking at being taken advantage of emotionally in a quick hookup and uh and then um block them.

[00:21:46]>> Yeah.

[00:21:47]>> So, that's the warning signs they're looking at. But these scammers are coming in with a completely different agenda. And I could see how the the potential victims miss >> miss it all.

[00:21:57]>> Yeah.

[00:21:57]>> And and and again, because I suppose and this is where we're failing in the way that we're educating, right? Because I have a big problem with everything has to be online. You know, you're defeating you. We're basically com working alongside scammers. You know, we want everybody to go online and do everything online. We we're failing everybody certainly in Australia with face to face. We don't do this.

[00:22:22]>> This is what we need to do more because we need to teach people and and older Australians as well. And and I say I'm 56 so I when I talk I say us oldies We need to, you know, be front and center and teach people exactly what they're doing. We got to stop doing the digitized learnings and teach people and show them, well, here's a script. Here is what the scammers would do in any scam. We need to learn from each other and we need to have that conversation where it's easy for us to say, well, I was a victim. That's okay, Mary. Okay, you too, Rob. Yeah, that's great. What What can we learn from that? because scammers want us to be isolated. That's >> Well, is that a is that another part that um I'm sure I can't wait to tell my family about you you being the the victim saying that to what's their playbook for that? Oh, look, they probably won't understand.

[00:23:16]>> Absolutely.

[00:23:17]>> So, they will actually say to you, >> don't tell any family and friends about our relationship. It is that special.

[00:23:25]They won't understand >> just and and again you've found somebody you know in inverted commas you found somebody so you're not I mean my mom spoke to her scammer for 6 months now she had >> see that fills a loneliness void to start with >> and I used to say to her at what point did you not think um that talking to him at 11:00 at night I know that he was in Turkey I understand that >> that was not healthy for you. Yeah, >> you know, you you're in this isolate.

[00:23:58]You're still in your room in your where you live in your residence.

[00:24:02]>> You're not engaging with anybody else.

[00:24:04]You're talking to this person online that is giving you that sense of comfort. And what they would say is that, you know, I will talk to you tomorrow, my beautiful love. So, the first the last person they talk to and the first person they talk to when they wake up. So, when you've been alone for so long, scammers know that this is great. I will be there. It's not the one scammer. I'll be there when she goes to bed and I'll be there first thing in the morning. And that's a first person.

[00:24:30]>> You wake up and you're excited. Oh, look.

[00:24:32]>> Oh my god. You know, Frank's, you know, Donald sent me a text message. Oh, great. I'll start doing it. But my mom, I noticed that she was sleeping in longer. So, she was speaking to the scams at 2:00 in the morning.

[00:24:43]>> Yeah. and then was, you know, not waking up until midday and was missing a few like was late to a few, you know, family functions and and was always tired and I I just thought it was a health issue because I'd say, you know, what's going on? Oh, no, nothing. Because the scammer had isolated her and told her not to tell anybody.

[00:25:02]>> Okay.

[00:25:02]>> So, if they'd actually told me earlier, maybe I'd picked it up earlier >> with from the the financial gain side.

[00:25:08]So, we we uh talked about, you know, a gift card. How how does it build up to to more than that? Do they get access to bank accounts? Do they look for bank accounts?

[00:25:17]>> They can they can ask you to create bank accounts. They will ask you to transfer monies. My mate needs some help. Can you do this for me? Which we know is elicit funds. So you transfer from one bank account to another.

[00:25:31]>> Um they've I've had victims who have gone and got loans. some taking money off their home loan, not not in not in major major lots, but might just go in and say, "Look, I need 10,000 because right, the the scammer said, "Well, I want us to buy something. I just need a $10,000, you know, loan. Once that happens, I'll be able to pay you back.

[00:25:51]Yeah, not a problem." They go and take money off their home loan, their savings, and they send it off to them through Western Transfers.

[00:25:59]>> Do they get ever get that complicated where the scammers will send some money as a show of faith like I borrow a hundred >> and uh I need a hundred for the gift card and then a week later pay that hundred back and then sort of oh well is trustworthy last time.

[00:26:14]>> Absolutely. You'll get flowers, you might get a fake piece of jewelry like like sort of I haven't had that done. Um but I know of people that have had you know but they've sent me this and they've sent me photos of the house and they've sent you know something that legitimize that story cuz that's all it is. It's just I've received flowers for my birthday from, you know, my love interest because you're you've you've given them your home address. I'm not giving my home address to anybody, >> but they do give their home address. So, they're going to get something in return. And you think about you spend a $100 gift card >> and the scammer wants to make sure that we're in the right relationship. Well, I'll give that back to you. Okay.

[00:26:57]>> It was just a borrow.

[00:26:58]>> That that would set everyone up going, "Well, they're trustworthy. I've seen it and it's come back." Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:05]>> So, what's the biggest uh one that you've seen like as in someone that's lost sign without naming names?

[00:27:13]>> The biggest one I've I've had two. I've had >> a CEO of a a female smart chick. She lost half a million through an romance investment, >> right?

[00:27:26]>> Um and she just she's she's devastated like and and they're all devastated.

[00:27:31]Everybody's devastated, but she said, you know, I'm more embarrassed that I'm intelligent. She's in her 50s. And she just went down that romance that led into the um the investment side. Then I had a a a hard one. He he had um he he was just he's he's passed away. So he was invested in these scammers for years. So the exached out to say that you know that photo is this and this is where we believe the origins of where you're talking the phone numbers they originate from >> Nigeria etc et so you know I put this thing together he didn't believe it I tried to get the Queensland cops to do a welfare check because I was really concerned for his mental health >> they didn't they failed to do that not saying they could have done anything but possibly they could have Um then he spent $57,000 on gift cards. He was he'd opened bank accounts. He was sending his pension, but he had he had alcoholic um dementia. So they knew that he was unwell. Yeah.

[00:28:39]>> And they just wore him down >> and wore him to the point that >> he died he died last year. And it and that was heartbreaking because there were so many factors in this and and so many people could have helped that they didn't along the way and they the scammers and so I took his his phone and his laptop and so I kept talking to the scammers and they were relentless. They were just continuing.

[00:29:09]>> What sort of what what sort of things were they coming at like you you would push back a little bit or would you >> Yeah. Look, I I I took the role then as playing his sister and I said that, you know, my brother was in hospital. He had had something wrong with his throat, so he couldn't talk. So, I would talk to him on the phone. They had African accents. Um, and what they were doing, they they were just saying, "Well, you know, you received this package before.

[00:29:33]You've paid us $200. There's another package." And the package is, you know, money. Here are the photos. It needs to come from FedEx, etc., and they just were the packages here or one of them was well you know I'm your wife you know you're meant to help me out and you know it was just that manipulation >> going at you >> and they were relentless it just never stopped. So this so this victim he was just continually bombarded on every and he thought that he had a relationship with a male who was you know this person in Australia and we were going to do this and we were going to you know build this business and you know this and then he had this female who claimed that he was his wife and you know so >> so he had a couple >> oh they had scammers going you know had a few scammers >> so that would have been like once they've identified this bloke we've got him here. I reckon we can get him again another one.

[00:30:27]>> So they, you know, they take the topic of Michelle's this person role. So, and then we've got Steve's going to play this role and then we've got this person's going to play this role and we and they just >> bombarded. So, he he he lost around 400,000.

[00:30:42]And that was a real hard because he had a health issue >> and his ex-wife who was beautiful and his daughter just beautiful people tried so hard and we all tried hard to get him away from the scandals >> telling him and what what was this fascinates me like it's >> when the facts are presented to them they just >> he was so he was so deeply invested. So there was, you know, and he had that little bit of >> um he he was cautionary about a lot of things and he had he had a bit of he was smart too. He had a bit of an IT background. So though the facts were black and white presented to him, >> there was that mistrust. He was believe they had manipulated him so well that he believed them over anything that we had to say. Well, I suppose again it's human nature. Like we've all had friends or we've been in relationships where you believe in the person even when the common sense is telling you no that that's not not right. Then you just choose to >> and look and and you know and I actually said and and I made it known when when I put it together. I don't know you. I have no reason >> to not tell you the truth. This is my background. My mom's gone through, you know, something similar. So, please understand that what I'm telling you is truthful. You are a victim of a scam.

[00:32:13]Please, I need you to really stop. And the look, the scam has opened up credit cards in in in fake names, sent it to his address. He sent him off. He was sending parcels on behalf of them, sending parcels to Malaysia.

[00:32:27]>> The complexity of it, you'd be overwhelmed.

[00:32:30]>> Huge. you know, you would need and that's why and and this was >> this is the saddest part with this is that after he passed, you know, >> I reached out to a friend in New South Wales cops and I said to him, >> "This is not your jam. I know that, but can you can you get me into AFP? Just get me into somebody."

[00:32:49]>> So, he then sent me to someone else who then said, "No, we're not going to touch it." So, then I reached out to someone else. And then the end result was report cyber report the information which I can't actually put all the information on report cyber because it's a 200page brief so how do you put everything in there and then that then got sent to the local police station in Queensland who the local detective would have looked at that and went oh that's out of our jurisdiction I can't do anything here so it's gone into the abyss now my argument was is there is information contained in that brief. Yeah.

[00:33:24]>> Whether it be the owner of the accounts for Apple, >> whether it be who opened up the mule accounts where they originate, like there is enough. There's phone numbers, there's IP addresses. There's enough that I think you could put >> part of a puzzle, put it on a whiteboard and say, "Let's just leave that there because we know that that puzzle piece is going to fit into something >> bigger like an organized crime >> that just sits at my my home in a folder." It's it's difficult because you you know the way police work as I do and yeah the different jurisdictions um you know you put all that together send it off to Interpol or or make connections with uh overseas law enforcement >> you're not going to get a lot of attention on it and I would just imagine walking into a U police station if I if I I've been scammed like that and I've seen it or you you've come to me like like your mom's you you walk in there and say this is going on um you'd be virtually turned turned around.

[00:34:27]>> And look, that's really interesting. So, I've um and I haven't got a reply. So this so I've just um proposed an initiative for New South Wales cops and actually for all cops which is for that purpose that when they walk into the police station the cops can say to them well here is something for you to look at which talks about transnational organized crime why we can't >> do anything about it at a local level but here are here are some initiatives we want you to look at you're not going to remember now but I want you to take this book I hear everything you're saying we are interested we'll take a bit of that information, but I need you now to report it onto these and this is why, >> you know, this is transnational organized crime and this is what happens. So, and I think victims don't understand that. They need that something in their hand to actually read that. Good idea. I think it's a great idea. I'm just waiting for them to >> ring me and say, "Kindly come in and let's start this initiative." Because we're not cops at at a police station don't have time to to and not and >> we're not being critical of >> I'm not absolutely but they don't have time to sit down and go through the whole discussion point about transnational organized crime. they, you know, trying to explain about scam compounds and why it's not in our jurisdiction to try to, you know, um, investigate something that's happening in >> to to investigated if they came in like your at your mom's stage, you'd have to have real time access to all the messages and respond to, not dissimilar to what you do. So, >> I I think education is crucial then, isn't it? Absolutely. what what you're talking about there like a big big if we drumed it into everyone's if you get receive this on a dating app red flag that's right and it it's not that complicated really is it >> look see I don't think it's rocket science and and I really I I really struggling with when I certainly when I send out proposals for face-to-face education uh you know I receive crickets back and I I sort of think well I'm you're not doing the right thing.

[00:36:32]Certainly in in in retirement villages for for your your oldies that are sitting there, they need to be educated face to face. And when you do do face to face education, they love it because they get to ask you questions. And some of them may be the most simple questions. You know, I've got Microsoft rang me the other day and they just wanted to have a look at my laptop, but I just couldn't do anything. So, I'm like, "All right, Fran, let's let's not go there, right? We all right, ladies and gentlemen. This is what's happened to Fran. this is what we're going to learn from. We're not going to allow anyone remote access to your laptop.

[00:37:05]Please understand, you know, simple things like that because old Fran thought that >> I just couldn't do it then. Can you ring me back later? Fran would have allowed them access which they would have then >> I know >> destruction. Destruction on on all levels.

[00:37:18]>> Yeah. So it for me this idea and you know I can talk about the you know we spend $20 million on a ridiculous ad campaign for pumping up your tires for fuel and all that you know seriously for the love of God.

[00:37:33]>> I'm I'm glad I found someone likeminded on that. I laughed at that. Make sure you keep air in your tires and we'll save fuel.

[00:37:39]>> We'll save fuel. Wow. Let's let's what a great initiative. let's not put anyone in your car and you know hey how about give me $20 million people and I'll go around and educate people on scams you know hello you know I mean like like it's it's mind-blowing the stupidity >> what about with I think with dating apps like if people are joining dating apps if there was some sort of these are the things you should look out for like do they have that they have that >> but people just >> you don't do that >> I'm finding love I don't care what's >> they don't and and look and I suppose again it it you know you join a dating app and it'll say you know um don't don't give money to someone you haven't met and you know so they've got red flags there >> a couple of things with that is the writing is always quite small so if you're an older Australian an old Australian um that that's your first problem you're not going to be able to read that so that's the first thing and second of all you're sort of just you're flicking through you're not really thinking about >> No you're so excited >> I've just I've actually made the decision to get myself out there and put myself online. So, it's it's more of the idea of understanding that you've done that, you've put yourself online, that's great.

[00:38:50]>> If this happens, >> yeah, >> you know, and I say to them, if you have not met for coffee in 10 days, you know, two, five days, two working weeks, forget the weekends, it's it's a it's a no-go.

[00:39:02]>> Well, see, >> it's a no-go >> to me. that is well I say common sense and that that's been unfair to people that uh oh yeah but this is slightly different but yeah of course a dating app and you you brought the point up in uh part one it's to have company meet so if you're not meeting who why are you looking for a companion if you're on an oil rig out in the middle of the Indian Ocean >> that's right and look and they have these you know I had one of the the scammers tell me that he was so worried about the pirates you know out in the ocean I mean I I really laughed at that.

[00:39:36]>> But the sad part about that is that I know someone else received the same text message about the pirates. So, I need your help for money. You know, we got to go back to meet them for coffee, you know. And I will say to the scammers, let's meet for coffee. Let's meet in Sydney. Let's meet at a cafe in George Street in Sydney. And there's always an excuse. Yeah.

[00:39:56]>> Can't meet there. Oh, look, I've just got to jump on a plane and I'm now going to Turkey to finalize this contract. So there'll always be a reason why they cannot meet. They'll say absolutely and then two days beforehand there will be a reason. And for me, ding, that's your that's your red flag. You know, and I know it's awful to say >> it's common sense because I say it's common sense.

[00:40:20]>> But I want you to go back. Why why did you want to meet somebody?

[00:40:24]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:24]>> You know, you really want to cuddle someone. You want to cuddle. You haven't had a cuddle in 20 years. you want someone that's that's about it's that idea of going out for dinner or you know it's it's you don't change the playing post. Do you think that the world has gone so crazy at the moment and we spend so much time on our phones it's almost like some relationships are just this electronic relationship so that that probably creates it well I haven't met but we're texting every uh every hour and that's fulfilling my need at stopping me being lonely >> and then and look and and I I doom scroll it is the most I've got this great book I'm reading and my phone and sometimes I go all right and I and I and there's two hours gone I Well, there's like 10 brain cells I've just lost because I've just doomcrolled for two hours. I've leed nothing. Yeah, >> I've leed that humans are stupid. That's about as far as I've learned. But >> we're so used to that. So, you're trying to teach people >> don't use this phone as being your source of a relationship. That that's not >> in what we're we're talking about here.

[00:41:32]But you can see how people are if if you've come up and said, "Well, have you met them?" No, but I've I've communicated >> and they've sent me photos.

[00:41:41]>> So, I'm talking to a scammer now that has that has stolen Barry Dubois's photos, you know, from Right. So, I've done a few with Barry Dubois. So, I'm just allowing them to see how they're, you know, how he's progressing me from point A to point B. And so, there is just photos after photos of Barry with his twins and Barry at this event and Barry and and you know, poor old Baz. I mean, you know, his photo is I don't know Barry personally, but Baz and Dr. Chris Brown, my lord, their photos are just used all the time. Chris is out there, isn't it?

[00:42:12]>> Oh, Chris is out there and bless him.

[00:42:14]And a couple of times I've I've talked to, you know, fake Chris and fake Chris has got a, you know, African accent and I just, oh, whatever. So, I, you know, they, all these photos create the story.

[00:42:29]>> Yeah.

[00:42:29]>> So, I get it. why you believe what is happening on your phone as a relationship. I get that cuz that story here. Hi, hi my love. I'm at this, you know, event speaking and Barry was at the event speaking but it was in Sydney, you know, and he's not dating you, you know, and he set the phone and my kids, this is their first day at school.

[00:42:51]>> Well, it was their first day at school, but that's not, you know, it's not Lewis, it's Barry. But but if you you buy into the the the first lie, it's easy to buy into the rest of rest rest of them.

[00:43:01]>> Well, that's I mean >> what's the what's the playbook for how far do they take it? Like how like how long does it go on? Like >> could go years >> and you know >> they just keep going. It it it it goes as long as you're prepared to give money >> and and so so some of the victims will stay with it for for years.

[00:43:19]>> They have no reason not to believe any different. And I this is only >> when your mom's at home saying, "Well, I've got a relationship. It's it's an online one, but uh we communicate all the time." And >> he's just had to stay over in Turkey a bit longer. And >> and once it it goes for that length of time, >> the psychological impact is far more difficult to get them away.

[00:43:46]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:43:47]>> Because you got to look at they are now so invested in the relationship in their mind they are. So, >> you know, I've got a lady in Western Australia and it she she's she's taken a loan out and and and doesn't matter how much >> Yeah.

[00:44:06]>> I prove to her >> she's not going to listen.

[00:44:09]>> She's not she there is no way. This is just so then it becomes a issue where family have to you know get involved and start taking you know control over finances and that becomes then there's another family you know what I mean there's another issue because this can go on >> for such a long time and they lose >> so much money and people don't actually understand and I'm not going to use the word clever how manipulative scammers are.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah. They use words work.

[00:44:44]>> You know, we can say the most hurtful words and break somebody down.

[00:44:48]>> Yeah.

[00:44:49]>> Just with words, you know, not with violence. And that's what they use. They use the power of words >> and and and making people feel, you know, guilty if they're not doing something. And oh, this poor person, he's going to, you know, be deported if I don't uh >> That's right. Yeah.

[00:45:04]>> And that's their skill set. That is what and we don't need to be educated now because we've got enough large learning models out there that'll help us. So anything we need to say.

[00:45:15]>> Yeah.

[00:45:15]>> You know, we can say >> and that that document or the book that you said the the playbook, you know, it's just answers to all all the questions.

[00:45:23]>> And in that playbook, not only is it just your basic, it actually then will take you into a sexualized part. you know, how do we then take it to maybe a sextorion part where I can get naked photos and and move into that part, you know? So, so though it's only 23 pages, yeah, um I haven't got down to that that sextorion part in my interactions with the scammers, but you can see that there is the love bombing, then the sexualized bombing, you know, this is and then they will talk about how to >> talk in sexy language, but how to say certain things that you're reading it, it makes my skin crawl.

[00:46:05]>> Yeah.

[00:46:06]>> But I can see how that works. But you're you're you're stepping away and looking objectively. But if it was, oh yeah, >> but I can see how that works.

[00:46:14]>> And then they get uh get them to send a naked photo or whatever. And then then they they could even declare and compromise them and go it's a scammer.

[00:46:22]We're going to post this on everyone.

[00:46:24]Yeah.

[00:46:24]>> And now we're in another another world of pain. You know, this is, you know, I mean that's another you discussion too about sextortion. But that still works there for for adults as well. You know, if they know that they're at a certain point where they're not going to get any more money, for example, let's try the sexy talk.

[00:46:43]>> Evil, isn't it?

[00:46:44]>> It's evil.

[00:46:45]>> It's not. This is This is evil. And this is this is why this has to be that discussion of this is this is pure evil.

[00:46:53]>> It it is because it's ongoing manipulation of someone. And and I would dare say that there's people whose lives have been destroyed by this. Not just financially, emotionally, psychologically.

[00:47:05]>> I mean, we know people have ended their life >> because of the intense shame.

[00:47:13]>> Yeah.

[00:47:14]>> That is that that that's that they have felt. But also society doesn't do a good job of it because we call people stupid, foolish, naive, dumb. you you're combining the shame with also losing a relationship, too. So, you know, we've all been down when you've lost a relationship and we've all been shamed.

[00:47:32]You combine the two of them together and uh >> it's it's horrible.

[00:47:35]>> It's it's it's the perfect storm.

[00:47:38]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:39]>> And that's the hardest part. This is this is the perfect storm. And they said, look, you know, there are a lot of scams out there, but they talk about the romance side as being the most devastating because it has that the emotional, you know, connection, the love part and the financial part. You know, an investment is just like the financial part >> where this has these two components that are so intense.

[00:48:05]>> Yeah.

[00:48:05]>> They come together, they combine, and it's it is it's your perfect >> I'm feeling sad for the victims just as you're talking. It's awful. It is just if people become aware or it might be a friend, a family member or or whatever and you suspect they're how would you well first of all with your business people can reach out to you and you can come in and do the investigation >> and then provide the facts.

[00:48:30]>> Yes.

[00:48:30]>> To to Yeah.

[00:48:32]>> Prior to that, what would you suggest to uh people? Yeah.

[00:48:36]>> Take it very steady, very calm.

[00:48:38]>> So don't have a don't have a big intervention. all the family there and go look please don't do that please look you know let's say let's say granny's involved in something ask her questions show interest you know nan tell me a bit about him I'd really like to know you know show me some photos you know and just slowly show interest so what you're trying to do is I always say like plant the seed yourself you know get them in there oh okay n oh oh >> ideally ideally it would be if they came back of the realization and came came back to you and said, "I I think I've been scammed." Yes. That gives them a bit of >> And that makes it a bit And look, I had a gentleman in Tasmania, um, 59, great, good, down to earth Aussie man, like lovely man, truck driver and everything.

[00:49:28]And he reached out to me and he just said, >> "I just don't know. I think this is real. I really do think it's real, but can you just do right?" So, of course, I came back to him and said, "Mate, it's not and these are the reasons what."

[00:49:43]>> He was devastated. He'd taken out a loan. He'd use finances of savings, you know, all this sort of stuff. And >> he just said, "Are you sure?" And he kept ringing me and and it went over for weeks, you know. And I said, "Yeah, I'm sure." And I said, "But I want you to promise me one thing. You're you're a truckie." I said, "I don't want you to hurt yourself. You need to ring me >> on this time." time and he did, you know, and he gave me guarantees and we worked through some processes and everything. Then I said to him, "Man, I now need you to go and get some help with your thing." And he reached out to some mates and he burst into tears and one mate was really good. The other mate said, "Well, you're a fool."

[00:50:18]>> Yeah.

[00:50:18]>> You know, so so then he said, "You know, I've got a mate who who supports me and I've got another mate who doesn't support me." So >> then we have got to be a bit more kinder because it's so intense. And he's, you know, he rang me a couple weeks ago. He said, "I'm I'm doing better.

[00:50:34]>> I'm now so ashamed that I've lost so much money >> to what I thought was a real person, >> and that's now what he has to deal with that as well. He's still, you know, he's got his one mate that's helping him through."

[00:50:48]>> Um, but I was really worried for him and and Yeah. And he was and he was so >> he was so real. He was so he was so uh and I and I hate the word vulnerable but he he was so >> he was so honest with the way he felt to me and I went mate you're going to be okay you you will be fine you just got to work through it you know please understand and then I explained to him about >> you know the organized crime part of all so you understand this is just not Joe sitting in a cafe >> well I I suppose that helps to a degree that you haven't been uh yeah conned by just one one person you are a victim of organized crime and and and on the issue of organized crime, we're talking uh off mic about um uh recent things in the media where people are talking about what goes on in these compounds where these scammers are. Just tell us what you know know about that because I find that uh frightening that um this is this is what's happening in the compounds that are generating these scams.

[00:51:52]>> So a victim will um apply for a job for example. So there there's a known victim. He was a uh gentleman from Pakistan. He applied for an IT position in Thailand. So he rocked up there. The person who was pretending to be part of the company, greeted him, took his passport, then drove him down to Myanmar.

[00:52:12]>> Yeah.

[00:52:12]>> Uh to to the border down Thailand and he was taken to a scam compound. And and he he talks about if you weren't meeting your quotas, you're you're beaten.

[00:52:23]You're electrocuted. Um, and we talked about, you know, there's photos of just people that are just covered in bruises and welts and, you know, they have a quot to meet and they are held under arm guard that is run by >> Chinese organized crime or organized crime and >> and each level within those compounds will be for something whether it be an investment, business email compromise, romance scam. So that's your job and you will be working 16 17our days.

[00:52:58]>> They're virtually prisoners of human trafficking.

[00:53:00]>> They cannot leave >> and if you do leave >> you could be killed.

[00:53:04]>> Yeah.

[00:53:05]>> End of story. There's there's no this is this is not fairy dust anymore. This is happening in real time as we speak now.

[00:53:15]We have got and I think the UN have talked about 100,000 300 300,000 victims of human trafficking. the numbers might be wrong. Um, but these are people who have gone to apply for what they thought was a legitimate job >> and have then been taken prisoner and driven to these compounds. And once one compound >> is shut down, another one is is built, is created. because we're talking about corrupt governments, corrupt police, we're talking about very wealthy organized crime, you know, and I said to someone the other day, I mean, we we could be saying that the one of the organized crime leaders could be buying homes in Sydney Harour for 16 $60 million. I mean, I don't know that. I'm not part of that world, but that's what we're talking about. This money is used >> to pump up the drug trade, the, you know, the crimes uh the the um firearms trade. I don't know, nuclear weapons.

[00:54:16]>> Well, could be terrorism. You don't know. It's organized crime.

[00:54:19]>> I mean, there it's it's there and it's it's, you know, trillions.

[00:54:24]>> But and and that's what, you know, I I think when victims look and think, "How stupid am I?" That's what they're up against, isn't it? That's what your 78-year-old mother is competing against organized crime on an international network stage. And even if we look at if we if we look at the Yahoo boys in Nigeria for example, so they're the known, you know, group that talks about romance who who who are very good and and you know at what they do.

[00:54:53]>> Um I'm not upselling them. I shouldn't say they're very good, but they are good at what they do. Um they're still organized.

[00:54:58]>> Yeah. You know, I I have a scammer on the books now and he was part of the Yahoo and he he talks about they they train every day. They learn from each other whether it be they post stuff on Tik Tok, whether they share documents, whether they write something in >> this worked. I had a situation like that. I said this >> don't do this. This is what we you know.

[00:55:24]>> So they're they're constantly evolving%.

[00:55:26]Have you seen in the times that you're looking that they're changing the changing the playbook?

[00:55:32]>> No, not no not really. I think what I've noticed now is the use of technology is against us more. So I would have said to you 12 months ago if you're doing a video call, they won't be able to move around. Now they're actually >> utilizing AI or apps that allows them to use their body more to put hands over their face. Because normally I would say don't do this. Don't put your hand over your face because it'll pixelate and it won't work. That's all changing now.

[00:56:02]>> That's all. So, so then that reinforces that I'm a real person.

[00:56:07]>> So they will find one app and say this is working really well >> and they will train and then they will video themselves doing it. Then they'll put it out for the next scammer to learn from that. So I just watch that and go that's that's exactly. So I try to teach people. I say to people this is what they're learning. So don't think that just because you're talking to somebody on a video chat that they're real >> they're not with the use of AI which again me too. It's just too confusing isn't it?

[00:56:39]>> But can't we just go back to face to face? What is wrong with people? Why are you happy to sit in your home and talk to somebody on a phone? Yeah, it is weird. If people want to reach out to you, how how do they?

[00:56:52]>> Look, you can just go on to my website which is tofaceinvestigations.au and everything's there. My mobile number's there. Send me an email. Go on to all my socials. I'm, you know, >> I'm out there. I'm out everywhere. My my big fat head is out there. If you tie Kylie Dennis up, you'll be able to figure me out.

[00:57:12]>> Well, we're going to have to wrap it up.

[00:57:15]But >> but a bit of a Debbie Down really.

[00:57:19]Sorry, I've got nothing to positive to end on.

[00:57:22]>> No, I Well, the positive thing is uh I you know, any former police officer, working police officer, and I can tell you were a working police officer, I thank for the service to the uh the community. Um for the drinkers, I thank you for running a hotel. But wow, what you what you you're doing now, I think, is is so important and and you're making making a difference. And it's a area that you've changed my thinking. I'm never going to laugh when I I I see someone how could they be so stupid and just look at the impact and the yeah the manipulation of vulnerable people. And if I if I learn something in police, I don't like uh crooks praying on vulnerable people. So yeah, keep up the good work. Keep talking, which I'm sure you will. I will.

[00:58:06]>> Okay. Thanks for coming on.

[00:58:08]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:58:09]>> Cheers.