What We Mean by “Toxic Family Dynamics”

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]Some phrases carry emotional weight.

[00:00:02]Today we want to define one carefully.

[00:00:20]Hi everyone and welcome back to Thriving Beyond where we have honest conversations about family healing and the patterns that shape us. Today we're clarifying what we mean by toxic family dynamics. This phrase gets used broadly, but we're using it specifically. When we say toxic family dynamics, we're not describing a person. We're describing a reoccurring relational pattern that consistently causes emotional harm.

[00:00:43]Reoccurring meaning it repeats. um relational meaning that it happens between people and consistently harmful meaning it produces ongoing distress, confusion and destabil destabilization.

[00:00:57]When did you guys realize that your guys's family dynamic wasn't just random? You started recognizing a pattern. Can you guys reflect and see when you guys realize this happens a lot?

[00:01:11]I think for me it was when I was a teenager because I think by that time um like I think as a little kid I it was just more normal you know I didn't like what was happening but I didn't know any different but as a teenager I had had enough exposure to friends houses and how their families looked to notice that there was something different about mine and some of the the issues that existed in my home didn't always exist in somebody else's home and that's not how you know their parents treated them or their parents treated each other. So I was able to pick up on I think that there's something really different and kind of not right about my family and also during you know my teen years was when my parents got divorced and had their custody battle. So that was another just kind of big blow up in my face kind of situation.

[00:02:11]Did it feel like um there was ever a point where it felt like predictable though? Like you knew like um a meltdown was coming in any way? At least for me it seemed like >> um there was patterns of peace and then it would just turn up on end and it would just be completely hostile in my family. But we went through pattern. It was a wave kind of thing. Do you remember moments of wave of okay, it's peaceful and then it builds up and then explosion kind of like me or not really?

[00:02:40]>> Yeah, I think that we could kind of figure out like we had to live like on eggshells.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah.

[00:02:47]>> And we we did try our best to just not rock the boat, but you know, like life just throws curveballs at you. You can't control every situation. So, if there was something unexpected that happened, we kind of knew how certain family members might react to that. And it's not always like in a um super healthy way. And then like I don't know if you guys experienced this, sometimes there would be like a big blow up in the family where there's like a huge conflict and then nothing ever gets resolved, but it would like calm down.

[00:03:25]Not get resolved, but calm down. And we'd have like a period of peace for like maybe a month or maybe a couple weeks before it would start building again. And it just like would keep kind of happening that way. And again, we would we were trying our best to have a peaceful home, but you can't always you can't always control that what other people do, you know, or outside factors or anything.

[00:03:55]Shantel, did you notice any kind of predictable pattern in your family or not really?

[00:04:01]>> Yeah, it was honestly exactly how Bri explained her her situation growing up.

[00:04:09]It was like there probably around the age of 12 for me. I was like, "Okay, this is really wrong." the anger, the just the events that occurred, the and then like compared to the situation of what happened. So, it's like this trigger event, an explosion, and then this big fallout from every relationship in the household, and like yeah, walking on eggshells, not allowed to address the elephant in the room ever. And you're just left always in this constant wondering state, and then am I safe or and like for us there was physical abuse, mental, emotional, pretty much spiritual too, I would say.

[00:04:56]And it just like pretty young I started to be like, "Okay, I'm not safe and I shouldn't open my mouth and I shouldn't question these things and I can't behave like this."

[00:05:07]But I did like to rock the boat. I was like pretty rebellious and I would like know when to poke and where to poke and what to say. And there was just horrendous things that happened. But and then as a young teenager, I wanted to move out. I wanted my own house. was I wanted to get away and I did like quite young start my life and then get married and start having a family and I wanted right out of the gates like I'm I'm going to make my own life. I'm not going to have this for my children and being able to recognize the patterns. And it was yeah comparing myself to like either television, friends, families, other people around me and how they behave and like getting a job and talking to co-workers and stuff and forming those connections and then going to further education. You start to like hear people's stories a little bit. If you form those connections and in yourself, you can look and reflect and then be like, look at where they might be in life or where they had this start and you're like, I didn't have that, so you had to build this. I don't know. It's that disconnect. You're always like, it's like when you put on your eyes that you can make the world fuzzy looking around you where you kind of like sink back in.

[00:06:35]you're always in that space and you're just not seeing clear, but you do recognize the feelings.

[00:06:44]Um, like the triggers sometimes it's even smells. It's a song. It's like and you get taken into the memory of that space and you're like, "Oh, like it's that's not healthy or I don't, you know, and it's all just these sensors and feelings." But I grew up in a household with other siblings and they didn't feel the same effects in a way. They had their own experience too. So I don't know if they see they saw the patterns. But my sister and I will talk about things sometimes like, "Do you remember when this happened or this?" And it's like, "Yeah, I do." And it happened like that and I felt like this. And we both can agree like that was our reality.

[00:07:29]And we could and we see like now in our adult life, like if anything takes us into that, maybe we should be curious and figure out what do we do about it? And are we going into this bringing this or are we going to leave that pattern and stop end it here?

[00:07:50]>> Yeah. I I feel like um with my family, my my parents didn't handle adversity very well. So when things would arise, there was a lot of I guess yelling and not really much communicating, just more, you know, chaotic yelling is the best way I can describe it. But I want to make it clear that we're not describing just a disagreement. We're not describing personality differences.

[00:08:21]We're not describing a difficult season.

[00:08:23]We're describing patterns that persist without repair, accountability, or change.

[00:08:29]What kind of things did you guys notice that it wasn't resolving? For me, it was just you woke up one day and my parents were talking again and it just I don't think anything was ever really talked about. It was just kind of more like >> they woke up one day and just >> forgot it ever happened, if that makes sense. Like avoid it and then until the next time where you know there's a breakdown. What kind of patterns did you guys see as far as like or when did you realize it I guess it wasn't resolving for me? It seemed like about 14 it was like okay this is not getting any better or this is kind of where it's at its I guess peak of what it's ever going to be.

[00:09:17]Yeah. I think about 14 as well. That was around the time that my parents were getting a divorce. But I don't think that them getting a divorce was how I realized. I think it's just the age.

[00:09:28]Like as kids, we're taught to apologize, you know, especially like in school like when you have a conflict with another kid, you know, if there's adults who know about it, like they would help you to kind of resolve your conflict. And even like you know other family members like my grandparents you know or you know other adults in our lives if like we had an issue like sibling to sibling or cousin to cousin if there was a conflict there was always you know like oh well do you see how this person could feel that way and you know well how do you think you know your actions affected them and how did you know how did they hurt your feelings and you have you know a resolution and talking things out and apologizing and I by like middle school, like if you're like taught that, like as a child, you're taught to like resolve conflicts, but then you like start to notice like, well, there's never apologies in these situations that happen here at home where there is name calling or there is, you know, objects being thrown or there are violent outbursts and there's no talking about it. There's no getting to say, "Well, this hurt my feelings." And there's nobody saying, "Oh, I'm sorry I did that. I shouldn't have done that.

[00:10:41]So, I think, you know, middle school age was kind of where I was starting to recognize that things just really don't get resolved around here, >> right? So, >> there's a pattern of no repair pretty much. It's just >> go on and act like, you know, everything's >> and you're supposed to smile, you know, after after something horrific happens the next day or even the same day, just hours after, you know, especially if company was coming over.

[00:11:08]>> Oh, yeah. You're supposed to act like nothing happened.

[00:11:11]>> Yep. Absolutely. And that's like it it teaches you how to mask at a very young age. I've been kind of deep diving into masking lately and it you put up a mask and it's just like that that fake persona just did not get found out pretty much is how I felt you know and I you know it's just like you can't let anybody know that you know what's really going on behind closed doors and that's the thing when you hear about people getting divorced you you know some people will be like oh yada yada but re in reality you don't know what happens behind closed doors in families you really don't because it seems like um a lot of families are taught to just keep quiet and don't rock the boat and where we're changing things now at least the three of us as we're talking about those things that are not really wanted to be talked about by families but I want to make it clear too that even healthy families can experience conflict Toxic family dynamics are defined by what happens after conflict. You know, is there accountability? Is there repair? Is there a space for honesty?

[00:12:26]What what is your guys's uh opinions on what happens in a system where the elements are constantly missing of, you know, repair, accountability, you know, what kind of effect did that have on you?

[00:12:45]I literally took like this whole program on taking Yeah. like ownership and then having to make amends. So making amends, you're also forgiving yourself, forgiving them, you're reflecting on your part, you know, like I was praying about it. And I then made changes like either in my the way I was living, the way I was behaving, some of my thought distortions and belief systems that I held. I then so I said, you know, I did this. I'm sorry. I'm going to change and I make the change and I do the change and it's a lot of work. Not everyone I don't believe everyone in the population can heal. But these people and their behaviors and their patterns that cause this like stirring up of like like intense horrible things inside like physical pain, headaches, not being able to sleep, bad grades, like all these negative impactful things in your upbringing and childhood because you're like, I'm I'm not safe. And you're constantly measuring and gauging like where can I breathe, where can I move, where can I eat, what can I say, what can I do because I am sitting next to a a landmine that's going to blow up and knock me off. So I grew up in that and then had to say you know I then inflicted be poor behavior and behaved in ways because I what I witnessed I thought that that's how you resolve things and how conflict looks and how relationships work. So, I mimicked that and then I've ruined a lot of relationships and the relationships have been hard for me to maintain and I've become pretty much a bit of a loner and focused on school studies and my children and fighting a whole other system and dynamic in the result of these this upbringing this toxic place.

[00:15:00]And so I did the work and I said, you know, and I changed and now I'm doing all this other stuff and heal from a better place and version of myself. So like I have can say I've changed and these people can say, you know, we made amends because she, you know, took ownership. She said sorry and she did the work and then she made it the change and we're beyond that now or whatever. But these people cannot believe or say anything because of the way that their reality is shaped and formed in what they see. And it is a total inverted way. And if we at all disturb that they become so fragile and something and they break down and they'll have medical events or some and they'll put everything on to you that because of this you you did this, you did this and they never ever will take ownership for what they've done. They could even be on their deathbed and they will never admit this is like I'm 36 years old. This started at three years old between my mom and my biological father where I had no contact with him till the age of 28. Now that we have repaired and reunited and I'm reconnected with my alienated parent, my dad, my mom will not ever say I did that. Even though it is repeating again in my life with my children and my ex-husband and the alienation and me not seeing them for over four years or having any contact is the repeated nonresolving. So like my mom will never forgive what my biological father has done. So she did not allow us to have a relationship. She will never admit to that. She will never say sorry. She has continued on through life and patterns have repeated where she has been in big trouble and caught in some lie and even resulted in prison time. But it's a repeated pattern again of all these big events and they started off small and small and bigger and bigger where it's just this toxic behavior where I would never want my children to behave that way in society or as a citizen where I would never want to behave that way. So it's I can take ownership of where I'm not perfect. I can be open to saying I make mistakes. I can say sorry to people. I can communicate now. But like that never ever was happening around me.

[00:17:34]Nobody was modeling that. And it almost feels robotic now. I was given a layout of this is a course and this is how you rectify and how you make amends and make changes and grow and these are the steps. And I just was like those are big steps. Not everyone has the will, the ability or the awareness to even begin doing that. And then they just go out in the world and they will never change their truth or their reality because if they do it, it's going to rock them off so much that their whole life will be just totally destroyed. So I'm like, we're the stronger ones. We learned and we don't do that. But some people just keep repeating that behavior and they don't have the awareness and it's just I think it's like a chemical thing or way you're born or like a belief system or personality trait and disorder that you have and I don't know how it all stems or where it comes from.

[00:18:38]>> Yeah. Well, you know, to kind of touch on that a little bit, it takes a certain amount of self-awareness to be accountable. And that's where we're seeing the difference in people who are motivated for repair and people who are just dysfunctional.

[00:18:56]There's other patterns that we are referring we want to refer to as well.

[00:19:01]There's chronic invalidation of feelings. There's role reversal between parent and child. Affection that depends on compliance, withdrawing connection as punishment, and loyalty expectations that limit independence. And that's all things that we've all had to deal with.

[00:19:20]Do either of you want to touch on either parent child relationship, how that changes or do you want to talk about how the silent treatment if did you guys ever get silent treatment or did you see a withdrawal of love if you weren't compliant in the way that you were supposed to live?

[00:19:39]>> I would say that I suffered pure neglect like full neglect. All my siblings did like our parent, my mom and stepdad worked, shift work and they were always out of the house in the evening and from a very young age I was responsible for giving my brother medication for his to that treated his ADHD and Tourette's and stuff and I was making meals and cleaning up and there was no physical affection. So I never even had the withholding. There was just never love from the get- go. was there was a video clip that my dad shared when I was 18 years old. My cousin's wedding, we were at a barbecue. We went in the basement, put on this childhood home movie and I'm 2 years old and I'm trying to climb up and sit on my mom's lap and she pushes me off and says, "Ew, get off me." And I left the room crying, >> but I was like, "That's been from day one." And I was like, "Oh, that's where that started." So for me, it was just pure neglect and then no affection and then the invalidation. You're not valid out ever. So there's no nothing like that. Sorry. Go ahead, Bri.

[00:21:01]>> Bri, what are your Do you have anything to say?

[00:21:04]>> Yeah. I was kind of raised with the whole role reversal, being put in the mother role, not just for my siblings, but also for my mom cuz it really our relationship always felt very backwards.

[00:21:16]I had to be the adult in the relationship and comfort her when she was upset, which was almost daily as a kid. And then if she was ever upset with me, if I wasn't doing what she wanted me to do or say what she wanted me to say, she would call me by my dad's name, like like an insult, like use my dad's name as an insult to insinuate that I was acting like him or I'm just like him.

[00:21:44]And of course, since she had told me such negative things about him and at this point as a teenager, I really didn't have much of a relationship with my dad. That was one of the biggest insults you could ever give me is to tell me that I'm like my dad or to call me by my dad's name. So yeah, there was definitely a like parentification. And then I don't know, I guess you could say that that was withholding affection to be called my dad's name when she was upset. So yeah, and obviously there's no repair. I mean, how do you repair that? You know, when when she's upset and resorts to name calling in that way, it was just I don't know. It was just painful, you know.

[00:22:36]>> Yeah. For me, um my mom would always say, "Uh, well, he's your dad." Like, I had a choice and he's my dad. You know what I mean? But she'd be like, "Well, he's your dad." And it's just like I can't I couldn't choose that he was my dad. But honestly, you know, my dad has done a lot of work in the last year and he's really changed and I'm actually very very proud of him and how much he has changed. But as far as the parentification for me or the withdrawal love or the role reversal, by fourth grade, I was getting myself up off the off to school pretty much. I had to get up, take my own shower, get myself up, take a shower, get my, you know, teeth brushed, get my breakfast, do everything. And I can remember sitting on the edge of my mom's bed just waiting for her to get out of bed to take me to school. And pretty much from fourth grade on, I was pretty much dependent on my own self of doing a lot of things. There was a time though that my mom did um do like she did laundry and that kind of stuff, but as far as any kind of emotional um any kind of emotional support or anything like that, my mom was not available for and like you, Bri, it was kind of like um I had to help her along.

[00:24:04]I was the one that was strong and you know while she had some internal mental struggles that I had to be the backbone for that her and and I also remember having to take care of some of her physical needs as well. I don't really want to get into it today but you know and reflecting on it now too when I was younger I was always the mom in my friend group. I was always the responsible one. I was the one that drove everybody everywhere and made sure everybody got home. And I can definitely remember at a very young age having to just pretty much take care of myself. And it it's it's sad that a lot of us had to grow up too soon. It seems a lot of our childhoods were kind of robbed or kind of rushed. But as far as our conversation, I I want to make sure that everybody knows that without language, without talking about this, people often internalize the distress. So, back when we were younger, we didn't have anybody to talk to about it. So, a lot of us internalize that. Now, we can talk to each other about it. Now, we can have these conversations.

[00:25:23]But maybe people from the outside, they would see that we are struggling or they might perceive us that maybe it's some kind of weakness, but they don't realize that what we're going on behind closed doors is really affecting how we just function every day. And by talking about it, we're externalizing the patterns and we're able to think about them, talk about them, and we can talk about these things without removing personal responsibility that people have for their own actions. At the end of the day, people should be held accountable for the way that they've conducted theirelves. But I have a question for both of you. What changed when you guys could separate yourself from the pattern? When when you were able to be, okay, I'm removing myself. Okay, I see this pattern. You know what? What changed for you guys in that moment?

[00:26:26]I didn't separate myself from my family until I was in my mid30s. So I started seeing something wrong or recognizing that this is not right in middle school.

[00:26:41]So as a young teen, but tried to still live in it in the system because it's my family. You know, you love your family and just tried to, you know, just always taking in what people were telling me of, you know, how they are and extending grace to this person, giving benefit of the doubt. And it really wasn't until my mid-30s when it just really felt unsustainable. At this point, I had been married for over a decade. And I had, you know, my my children were not just babies and toddlers anymore. They were kids who needed help with homework. And they were kids who had their own questions and their own personalities. And it felt like I I can't keep doing this. I felt like I was always juggling my my life. That it really is my responsibility, my marriage and my children and my household. Um that is my responsibility in real time. Like that is what I should be doing with in my adult life. And then trying to juggle that with trying to trying to heal. I really did want healing for my family for my, you know, family of origin. Of course, I wanted what was best for my my mom and my dad and my stepdad and all of my siblings. Of course, I really, you know, I still do want healing for them, but I really thought that I had I had to do so much in order to make that happen.

[00:28:08]And it really wasn't until I was 34, almost 35, when I was I can't I need to separate myself and work on my own healing. I cannot fix them. If I could, I definitely would have been able to by now, right? It's been my whole entire life. So, I don't know. Did Did any of you feel like you were able to separate yourself from that as a teenager or was it when you guys were adults as well?

[00:28:36]For me, I So, um, nine years ago, I figured out I was alienated. It was in 2017.

[00:28:46]And for me, once I realized that, you know, all the cuz I therapy was very very validating for me once I I kind of started unloading. Um my therapist really validated me and assured me that pretty much I I wasn't the problem. I was made to be feel like I was the problem, but and a lot of kids do take that burden on themselves and make them feel like, well, it's something that I'm doing that's causing all of this. But it was 2017 when I was able to step back and realize, okay, I'm not the problem.

[00:29:32]I am just dealing with the the I guess the conditions that are set up for me. It's not, you know, me personally. And I figured out that there was something wrong when I was about 14, but I didn't realize that and fully like process it that there really was something wrong in my family dynamic until 2017. So, it wasn't as an adult, but it was so freeing to be able to take a breath and be like, I'm not the crazy one. I'm not the one that's doing this. I'm just handling what is getting kind of thrown at me.

[00:30:15]So, it was nice to be able to separate me from the pattern. You know, I wasn't the one causing the pattern. I was the one responding to the pattern. And then once I realized I was responding, then I realized I didn't have to respond anymore. So, it's kind of like, you know, the same thing that you went through. It's just like, you know, we all go through it in our own time. me.

[00:30:39]It was 2017, so I was I don't even know how old I was. So, I mean, >> still pretty young. That's young adulthood.

[00:30:50]>> Yeah, it is.

[00:30:52]>> You got a head start on your healing.

[00:30:54]>> Well, for me, I moved out at 17. I was an emancipated minor. I graduated high school early and I moved out and got my own apartment at 17. So, I didn't have um anywhere to escape to. Like most kids like if they go through a divorce, you know, they can find their other parent or at least entertain the idea of maybe, you know, that other parent can save me kind of, but since my parents were married, uh I had nobody to like save me. I had to get out on my own. So, I really focused about 15, I decided I was going to really buckle down in school and I figured getting my diploma was the first step to getting out. So, I took summer classes. I never took a summer break after freshman year and I took all summer classes and I ended up graduating early pretty much like you can go out and get a job and everything after you get your high school diploma. So, I moved out at 17. So by 2017, I'd already I moved out in 2013. So I was already out on my own 5 years at 23.

[00:32:06]So for me, life was really life punched me in the face. I went into factory work and if anybody's ever worked in manufacturing, it it you'll know what what I'm talking about. You meet all kinds of different people from all kinds of different backgrounds and all kinds of different lifestyles. And pretty much I had to learn everything from other people. Um I constantly talked to I I still have friends that are my parents' age, but I I made friends with them at, you know, really young cuz you know when you're 18, you can be throwed in with somebody who's 43 and on assembly line somewhere and you just start talking. And for me, I I really felt like I just didn't have a choice. but to get out. And my adult life pretty much started at at 17 years old. And I feel like it even started before then because I was taking the steps to getting out. I was, you know, working in school so hard. And I mean, I I am very proud of myself that I was able to do that because both of my parents didn't think I'd ever graduate.

[00:33:20]I can remember my mom actually being surprised. She's like, "Wow, I'm I can't believe you actually, you know, did this." But it wasn't that I was bad in school. It's just I had so much on my plate that I couldn't deal with it. And I think that a lot of kids in in toxic family dynamics struggle in school because they have just so much on their plate that they can't focus. You know, you're thinking about things like when you're sitting in a desk, you know, are you going to listen to a teacher talking or are you going to process what you dealt with at home? a lot of kids will probably relive what's going on at home.

[00:33:54]So, I mean, I'm very proud of myself that I was able to graduate and, you know, I did that on my own and it it's just it's sad the kids that have to grow up too soon. But, I don't want anybody to feel bad for me cuz I'm really happy in my life now. Like, I live like an old lady. I don't I don't relate to any I'm going to be 31 and I don't relate to any 31year-old like ever. or like I I really just feel like a a 50-year-old lady. I just want to go crochet and bake and do that kind of stuff.

[00:34:26]>> Can I just say that I think the old lady life is where it's at?

[00:34:29]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:34:31]>> Like over here like making bread.

[00:34:34]>> Yeah.

[00:34:37]>> Shantel, when was it that you were able to separate yourself from your family of origins pattern? When were you able to be like, "Okay, I'm going to step back.

[00:34:45]I'm going to separate so I can get some some clarity.

[00:34:51]Well, okay.

[00:34:53]I always felt like I was going to from a very very young age I was going to be in this bubble that I have my own separate reality that I live in and is not a part of this family. And so I distanced myself. I remember playing Barbie dolls with my sister and having this plotline of like I it's my wedding day and then I and like that night I'm having a baby like you just have no idea how life works. I was guess who's not coming to my wedding and I would say to my sister guess what and this is in real life too. I'm like, if I actually got married, I would never invite mom or dad ever. And if I have a baby, I would never let them touch my baby ever. And I was like, I'm dead set. And this is like my rule for life. And so I I just like bubbled myself and was like, I'm different. This is different. This is nothing I want to be like. This is like everything I saw. I was like, not going to do that. Not going to do that. And I don't know where that came from. It was just like from just this gut instinct like this isn't what I'm going to do.

[00:36:13]And then oddly enough, things that happened to my mom repeated for me in my life even though I was living a totally different life. So I don't know what it is. But then I noticed there's different layers of this part of myself where I'm still connecting to these things in my childhood that I can't let go or I can't heal from. So when I fully totally disconnected I would say it's been almost recent definitely right after my divorce or separation like in 2018 and when things started going south and I was having legal custody problems in my own life I thought what is the history of this here and when I started reading up on things and like what I'm a healthy fing parent why can't I see my like for no reason at all. I'm not a bad person. I have nothing like what what is going on? And then this parental alienation stuff. And then it was like me remembering times where my dad was like, I want to be a part of your life.

[00:37:17]I love you. And he was so kind and genuine. And I was like, "Oh, I don't trust you. I have no idea who you are.

[00:37:23]I've met you a couple times in my life."

[00:37:26]And then that really opened me up to being like, "You know what? He did try to be in my life. He does love me. He is my father. Like he does have a right because he's healthy and kind and good and like he's supportive and he tells me nice things, things that I wish I had as a child. So that broke up some things where I'm like, "Oh, um I'm like I'm not only like my mother and what I grew up in. I am like my father and I am not that person." And so that was like so much validation and then that just kept me like going onwards like towards that side where I felt this is natural for me instinct inside and I just I don't know have a radar that I follow and I say it's like God guiding me to what is meant for me and and what is not meant for me. So having that that gauge to see like this aligns cuz this is positive and love and what this person is telling me on this other end and what I've experienced my whole life.

[00:38:40]Well, that's so negative and taking away and like breaking down relationships that for not a good reason. Like if there was a good reason, sure. But if there's no reason to like interfere and separate people. So, I was like, I'm not going to repeat that behavior, but it did. And then and and trying to stop and reverse all that now. Well, it's because of the it's the type of person you're dealing with.

[00:39:09]So, you can't change them. And you like all the best I could do is just pray and then like hope that things like inside them shift enough where they can you know get into that space of like true being like healed and and coming from a lighter loving place. But if they're not showing that then I'm not going to like have that around. Then there's certain boundaries and there's like distance and there's separation and and then there's understanding like when that creeps in I have to shut that down. But when people when there's things coming in that it's safe, it's secure, it's honesty, it's truth, it's like all these really healthy good things. Yeah. And but that's where I noticed, okay, I'm not like dark hard things aren't good for helping me. So >> figure out the have the awareness pretty quick.

[00:40:17]>> I also want to mention too that we're not advocating for arangement as a first response, but we are advocating awareness and awareness supports informed decision making. Recognizing a harmful pattern doesn't require hostility. It requires clarity and clarity in increases your options. You may not control other people's behavior, but you can adjust your participation in their behavior. What does adjusting participation look like in practice?

[00:40:46]What kind of boundaries? If you guys were willing to share, how does how does adjusting participation or interaction with somebody look like for you guys?

[00:40:55]How do how do you do that?

[00:40:59]I think it kind of depends on the person because if you're dealing with somebody who is just you're kind of in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation, that's probably a situation that you maybe just you can't interact at all with that person. And unfortunately, I do have some of those kind of people in my family. I hope it won't always be that way, but as of right now, it is.

[00:41:22]And then we do have some people who we just we're not aranged at all. Well, there's really no hard feelings, but there are people in our lives where, you know, politically or religiously or whatever, we don't always agree on things. We just know, hey, I'm not going to bring up any politics or any religious topics or we're not going to talk about this topic over here. You know, we just we set those boundaries for ourselves. And that and that's all you can do. Like boundaries are not something that you place on other people. It's what you're going to do in a situation. And so for me with people that know I do have a relationship with this person, but I know that we don't always see it eye to eye, it's I put boundaries on myself of I'm not going to have I'm not going to discuss this topic. I'm not going to bring up this topic. And if it's brought up, I'm just going to take that as my cue to go get a drink or go get a snack, go do something else to avoid, you know, just this unnecessary drama. Um >> because you don't have to. Yeah.

[00:42:23]>> Yeah. because you don't have to participate in drama. You do have a choice. And as for people that really the situation is just really so when you see that person, there's just so much destruction and dysfunction in that situation. And I think that it's okay if you have to have space from people for a while. I know that that was really hard for me. I felt really guilty for a really a long time. Even though I was the one who chose estrangement, it is not the choice I wanted to have to make.

[00:42:55]So for people listening, we are saying we we are not pro-estangement. I would never want people to think, oh, we are advocating for people to walk away from their families. Um, no, that's not really the outcome that I want for anybody, but it is sometimes the only way that somebody can heal. you know, things are really and that's okay, but >> walking away from your family isn't really what heals you. There's more work to do. You just get the space to heal, but that in itself in and of itself is not what heals you. It just gives you the the space to be able to be on your healing journey instead of like having these influences on you that are not very healthy. So yeah, that's what it's been for me is that sometimes it's just putting boundaries on myself on what I will not discuss or what I will not do and then other times it's that I will not even you know will not even enter a space where somebody is there that I know that the situation is not going to be a good one. So yeah what about you Chantel?

[00:44:05]Yeah, I felt once I figured out what is in my control and what's outside of my control, which is like other people's behavior, like sure, I wish I could be like, here's my magic wand. And now I'm your puppet master. Like, no, I don't wish that at all. That would be awful.

[00:44:24]Too much time. But there's sometimes where I'm like, you know, your answer, your response isn't what I really was going for and I wish you would say or do this instead. And and like just re recognizing that's never going to be a possibility. So there's a lot of okay, what can I control? And then what can I change if it's something in my control?

[00:44:49]And then if it's outside of my control and I can't really change it, then there's a part where I kind of have to accept it and then I make you know an idea list of in this situation I would do ABC and if this ever happened I would do ABC and just have all just have this action plan of this is how you know I can accept and get through this which is like okay I will I'll read the Bible or I'll sit and meditate or I'll journal or I'll exercise or I'll go for a walk or talk to a friend or go to a therapy group setting or take a course or learn a skill. And yeah, >> looking at what you can control and what you can't. I feel that's such a big part of healing.

[00:45:40]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:45:41]>> Yeah.

[00:45:43]>> For me, >> it really liberates you.

[00:45:45]>> Yeah. I I can be a little bit of a a control freak or I'm o OCD, but it I know that I'm kind of in hyperdrive because of the chaos that I grew up in.

[00:45:58]So, it's just kind of learning to go with the flow is not easy for me, but I I definitely try. As far as my relationship with both of my parents, I do have a relationship with both of them, but the boundaries I set, for example, is they either have to call me or text me before they come over to my house. I don't like to get dropped in on. It makes me feel unprepared. It makes me feel I don't I don't like stuff getting sprung on me, if that makes sense. So that's like a clear boundary that I have for my mom and dad is they have to call or text before they come over and I have to agree, yes, you can come over or no, you cannot come over maybe another day. But I really keep my parents separate. The relationship I have with my dad is my dad and my relationship. And the relationship that I have with my mom is my mom and my relationship. And pretty much over the last 10 years, I've had to I've had to establish a lot of boundaries with both of them. But would I say that our relationship is perfect and great and we're super close? No. I wouldn't say that I'm close to either of my parents. I I kind of feel like um we're we're at a good place, but we're not building on the relationship right now. We're just kind of at a place where it's peaceful. We don't have confrontation. There's boundaries in place. But maybe as the years go on and after they get used to my boundaries, after they get used to them, maybe that we can, you know, build a little bit more of a closer relationship. I I really would like my mom and dad to be able to participate in my son's life, be able to come to his first birthday. But, you know, there's still situations that my parents cannot be cordial right now.

[00:47:53]My parents actually just divorced in 2022. They were married for 38 years.

[00:47:58]So, the whole time growing up, I was already married, you know, uh yeah, I was married in 2016. So by 2022, I mean, I was already married a while. And so when my parents split up, I wasn't a child, but I was able to process it more of like, okay, I know you guys aren't compatible, so I think it's best that you guys do separate. And my sisters and I, we all agreed. We actually had a family meeting about it at the time. But as far as my relationship with my parents, there's there's a lot of boundaries. And it's not it it's uncomfortable to set boundaries with people if you're not used to doing it.

[00:48:41]That that's the part that I struggle is I feel bad afterwards cuz it's like, oh, I don't want to hurt that person's feelings or and that's that's >> too.

[00:48:51]>> Yeah. It's just I'm not a mean person by nature. So, it's just kind of like, you know, when I I it was just the other day I I said something. Oh. I told my dad that it wasn't a good time to video call my son and I texted him. I told him and then I asked my husband, "Was I too mean? Was I too mean?" But, you know, it's it's baby steps for me. I'm I'm learning still to be able to uh there's some boundaries that I can set and have no problems. And then there's times where I like I let that doubt creep in and it's oh, was I just a little bit too mean and direct? But when you're not used to it, it's it's hard to do. But right now, I would say the relationship with my parents is as good as it has been in a long time. And I'm able to keep them both separate. I don't talk about either of them to each like I don't talk about my mom to my dad and I don't talk about my dad to my mom. So I I keep that boundary in place where they know that I'm not going to talk about them e each other either. So that was a really big boundary that I set and that's been some years ago now and it's actually worked quite well. I think they respect it. And there was some times where I had to tell my parents, oh, well, I don't want to talk about my other parent to them. And it's just like even after those minor, you know, corrections and reaffirming the boundary, it's actually it's it's going as well as it can. And what I'm trying to do is be able to break the generational curses, but still have my son be able to have his grandparents in his life. Because one thing that both of my parents are are good grandparents.

[00:50:34]They they do love their grandkids. So I mean I don't know if that was because when they got married they were 18 19 years old and then now they're almost 60. So it's taken a long time but I mean I think both of my parents uh are finally growing up some.

[00:50:54]>> Did you ever have a period of like estrangement like not talking?

[00:50:59]>> Oh yeah. Yeah, I have. Um I've had periods of arangement with my sisters as well because >> I was gonna ask cuz I did with my twin sister.

[00:51:10]>> Yeah. Well, you mentioned earlier kids can have different experiences living in the same home.

[00:51:18]>> So to for a perspective, you know, my oldest sister left home in 2003. I was in third grade. I didn't get to leave until 2012. So that's 9 years that my oldest sister didn't live in the same home. And that's 9 years that she didn't experience, you know, but she did experience, you know, some of the early, I guess, conflicts that my parents had.

[00:51:46]So there was a point in time when she had to deal with it when she was younger, but then it kind of passed off on to me. It's one kid wet left and then the other one is growing up. So, it's just kind of like I know my old like older sister had to deal with the conflicts of my parents before I was born but then after she left I had to deal with them after everybody was gone cuz there was a point in time where both of my sisters were out of the house and then it was just me and my mom and my dad. So, a lot of conversations were, "Go tell your dad this, go tell your mom that." They communicated through me. My parents did.

[00:52:27]As I got older, you know, go tell your dad I need his debit card, you know, that kind of thing. It's just kind of they never talked to each other. They talked through me. And I was kind of like mediator. And it's it's hard being the last kid, you know? It's hard being the last kid, especially in in a family dynamic where your parents don't get along cuz it's kind you really just feel like you're stuck there and you have nobody else to talk to. I mean, my two older sisters were out living their lives, you know. my second oldest, my middle sister, she, you know, when she graduated in '09, she she moved out, you know, and that's one thing, too, that I did notice a pattern, if there is a pattern between my sisters and I is we all left home very young. We all left home 18 years old, right out of high school. So, that is something that I have noticed is, you know, there was no period of where we just lived with mom and dad or anything as an adult. We became adults and we all left. So, but >> I have a middle I think. Well, the my train of thought came back, but I was >> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:53:36]>> Yeah, my par my parents right now and my relationships like I moved back to the same city. So, like I moved away for 13 years of my life and I was in another province and I just moved back in April to my hometown to my childhood neighborhood and my mom and my stepdad live 5 minutes away from me in a car ride and my mom can walk here and she is basically my child care for my son who is one month on, one month off going between Calgary to see his dad and then coming back to stay with me. And so when he's here, she's in my house, she's around me and you know, being gone for 13 years and having to come back and knowing what I know now, I Yeah, the boundaries definitely for me and I just like know what I can handle and can't handle. and I'm a student again and like I feel like the fog and like the trauma has lifted enough that I can sit in a class and listen to instruction and understand what's going on and I was not able to do that in my youth but I really need to focus. So I'm like I can't have any other drama coming in. So when she comes in and tells me things that are happening with her I just give her space. I listen to her. I, you know, respect her, but I also I'm like, I'm not your caregiver. And I give suggestions, you know, maybe try this or maybe do that. But I'm I'm like, I'm really fully focused on my son, myself, my custody battle still, and graduating and getting through school. And so I can say like I can use a lot of that as like, mom, I can't do this right now.

[00:55:24]I'm really, you know, I got all this going on. And it's not, oh, I hate you and I'm dispelling her, but it's just I I see you. I hear you. I praying for you. I hope that things can get better and like one day that you'll be strong enough to say the truth and speak the truth and just live in the truth, but right now you're not doing it. So, I can't be in that space with you. So, we're in different spaces, but we're in the same space sometimes. So, it's if that makes sense. And then with my stepdad, we really don't have a relationship. He comes over for family dinners and stuff. Now I host Thanksgiving and I and birthdays and different things and have my grandpa, my mom, my stepdad, my brother over, my sister, my son will be here and I'm happy to have everyone in the space and it's comfortable and we all get along and we all talk and it's nice and whatever, but then I don't really talk to my stepdad outside of that. And then my biological father will text every few days or a couple times a week and check in. And my younger halfs sister that I didn't grow up with or no at all. She's getting married in in June. So we're all going to her wedding and it'll be a big reunion and we mostly get together for big events, big weddings because everyone we're scattered Ontario, Manitoba, BC. So, it's really you're only getting together for these big things. And I do try to make an effort to see my dad. I don't have the flexibility that I used to when I visit him way more frequently. But he I go out there and that's my reset. That's my happy. It's in the middle of the woods, in the middle of nowhere, and it's just so peaceful. And he's quiet. He's so quiet and I'm so quiet. And we just sit.

[00:57:09]We will drive in the bush and we'll go shoot birds and stuff and we'll just be listening to country music and driving down these roads and it's just silent.

[00:57:20]And I love that relationship. I cherish it because that's just me. I'm just a introverted. Let's listen to chill music. Let's enjoy nature. And we don't have to make a drama. We don't have to we don't have to bring anything to each other's table that's going to put too much or be negative or taking away. We can just exist and and then just sit in a space of love. And that's like the relationships that I want to harbor and nourish and be around and the ones that are so much work. Well, I just Yeah. But I had I've Yeah. I was gone 13 years and now I'm and now I'm back and really using all the skills I had to take anger management. I've had to take all these certificates and courses cuz I this really messed me up as like a person and how to behave and how to be around people and friends and I had no relationships too for a long time. I had I was like I just want nothing put me in a hole. There was times where I'm like I just want to die because I like and for and legitimately and I was hospitalized for that feeling and I think it's nothing to take lightly and depression is a really hard hole to get out of. So grab out whatever you can to get out of that hole and whatever it takes. So if you have to cut out people for a bit and you have to have a time where you're going really inward and you're begging on the ground pleading to God and and you're at the point where like are you even real and like how is this happening to me? like just really like dig into the the faith and the hope and just get yourself like whatever you can and and if yeah like I won't say you know it's good to like totally emancipate yourself and be away from I I don't know if that's but it depends. It's so situational.

[00:59:14]But in healing and when you're in a good place, you should be able to comfortably just manage your relationships. You should be able to be in a space without anyone like yelling, causing physical harm, putting each other down, swearing, and or bringing in lies or like manipulative and other behavior that's sub extreme behaviors. one, if you're healed, you won't really have those people around you. And then if you do have those types of people around you, well, it's teaching you something, but don't go into it. Don't go into the behavior and the patterns that they're doing because you know it's wrong. You know that it doesn't feel good if you're on the other end. And we're not perfect and we can't always do the right thing.

[01:00:01]But if it's like you're constantly choosing that and you're constantly going into those really low-level human being behaviors, that is that should be an alarm. That should just be a warning like I need to go. I need to change something. I need to talk to someone. I need some kind of advice. I need help. I need different therapies. Maybe maybe a medication.

[01:00:24]Maybe a diet change. Maybe exercise.

[01:00:26]Maybe breath work. But yeah, it's it's try to not go back into that and be careful like guard yourself in your relationships. Just guard yourself, >> right? And I think a lot of people are confused too and that's what keeps people stuck is they don't they don't know how to describe what they're going through or they don't have the language for it. Um but clear language does bring you know it reduces confusion and it brings clarity. So I mean we'll continue um having these conversations. We are approaching these topics with grace and very carefully. If something in this episode triggered a question or if you have an experience that you would like to share, please share that on our website. our discussions, we're trying to keep them as thoughtful and steady as possible. We know that this is a hard topic to talk about. Um, if you would like um extended conversations or deeper episodes, consider cons uh subscribing to our membership. But until next time, take care of yourselves. We'll see you next week.