William Lane Craig Vs Alex O'Connor: God and Suffering [Open Panel]

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:18]Knock knock.

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[00:01:14]I need my My name's She walk my Oh. OH, THERE YOU GO.

[00:03:02]Tell you like your tears baby when the drips from your lips tell you like your tears like this.

[00:03:12]Don't be such a slave to your brother.

[00:03:15]Baby Sh.

[00:03:45]See the swing of your heels. I tell you like it is. It's like this. Waiting for a drink from your brother.

[00:03:54]Baby get shy after school.

[00:03:59]There you go. There you baby go crazy ring.

[00:04:10]Heat.

[00:04:20]Heat.

[00:04:34]Heat. Heat.

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[00:04:53]Baby go.

[00:05:15]Welcome, welcome, welcome to another exciting night of chaos. This time about God though, which is a lot of nights, but this time it's about William Lane Craig and Alex Okconor. Okay. My favorite atheist that is a famous YouTuber and one of my favorite theologians that is currently still alive. So, I found this video all by myself. No one helped me find it. I'm just kidding. It was to sticker Johnson.

[00:05:37]He posted it in video suggestion in Discord. You too can post your video suggestions there and if I think they're goated, I will watch them. Okay, unless it's Kirk, which I know Kirk's not watching cuz he's currently debating right now, which I can't believe you didn't tell me about that. Shame on you, Kirk. But anyway, that's a distraction.

[00:05:50]Um, if you want to join the panel and react along to William L Craig versus Alex Okconor, you too can by clicking the link that's pinned at the top of the chat. It's also in the description if you think about it. And you must good to see Chatter King saying I believe that says testicular Johnson. I've seen that a lot of times, so I think that's what he's saying if I'm getting my Chinese right. Good to see you big soda. Good to see you Elder Lion. And good to see you Glacier. And good to see you Chatter King. And two perspicacious guests have already found a way to click the link.

[00:06:14]So amazing. Glacier, nice to see you big soda. I'm sorry. Little soda. Nice to see you both.

[00:06:20]>> Yeah, little little soda.

[00:06:23]>> The littlest of sodas. Hey guys.

[00:06:24]>> We need to go get Kirk. Kirk's [ __ ] He's drowning.

[00:06:29]>> I can't believe Kirk is I can't believe Kirk didn't tell us that he's debating Steelborn. And I can't believe he didn't tell us that he's going on speak easy because this seems planned, right? This is like a this isn't a call in. This is like like planned out thing.

[00:06:41]>> Yeah, >> that's so weird that Kirk wouldn't mention that. That's kind of like a That's kind of like a [ __ ] G move though, if you think about it.

[00:06:48]>> He's getting he's getting uh roasted it would go well. Yeah, I can't imagine.

[00:06:54]But I mean the balls or the arrogance or >> Yeah. Yeah. Like and I will definitely be reviewing this. I mean, don't threaten me with a good time. We got a lot to look forward to. We have that. We have uh John Zurka, a friend of the channel, is uh debating tomorrow, I think. I don't know on what channel. Um but about the existence of God. And then we have our very own testicular Johnson is debating as well on if religion is abuse. I can't remember if that's Friday or next Friday.

[00:07:23]>> Is that is your debate tomorrow or next Friday? If it's this, if it's tomorrow, we got like three friend of the channel debates to go through, which is crazy.

[00:07:32]Zirkas, Testies, and now Kirks, which is crazy. God made humans so we could suffer for his amusement. That's fake and gay. Testy, you know that's fake and gay. You know that's fake and gay.

[00:07:44]>> Testy's about to get blown out in his debate.

[00:07:47]>> I can't Did Testy say who he's debating?

[00:07:49]Can't remember.

[00:07:51]>> Orthodox guy. I remember that.

[00:07:53]>> Oh, that's even worse. Wait, is it also steelorn? It's not also steelorn, is it?

[00:07:58]>> Wait, what? Who? Who is he debating?

[00:08:00]>> We don't know.

[00:08:01]>> I don't know.

[00:08:03]>> I know it's a orthodox. Oh, boo. The bad atheist strikes again.

[00:08:12]>> He reviewed some of his content. He was like, I got to get the [ __ ] out of here, >> man. Testy, I was I mean, I understand you have personal stuff going on, but I think you need to think of me and how I want to react to it. Okay. I think you can pull it together for your friend Confluence and give me a good debate.

[00:08:29]Okay. Who is it supposed to be against?

[00:08:31]At least tell me that.

[00:08:33]>> Yeah.

[00:08:33]>> Orthodox guy cuz I remember Anson giving him advice about what what he should do.

[00:08:38]But I can't remember if it was Steelborn or if it was somebody else.

[00:08:43]>> What other Orthodox? I mean, there's a lot of Orthodox, but it wasn't someone that I feel like I knew too well. I think I only talked to Steelburn once before. He seems pretty goated, though.

[00:08:52]I don't think I Yeah, I don't I still don't think I've ever talked to him.

[00:08:56]>> He was on the panel I think only one time. I think Avarest brought him up.

[00:08:59]Yeah, Avarest brought him up. I was incredibly drunk though, so I like barely I didn't even know he I think it was the night I passed out. Oh, it was Steelborn. Yeah, I think Steelborn joined the night that I like passed out on stream.

[00:09:12]>> I'm going be honest arguments.

[00:09:14]>> He's got some good arguments. I've been I've been hearing some of his arguments.

[00:09:18]>> Do you know what I learned? I don't know if this is true. Okay, this is a fun fact and I saw it publicly posted. So, I'm not like revealing anything unless it was a joke. So, you know Avarice.

[00:09:28]Okay.

[00:09:28]>> Mhm.

[00:09:29]>> Maybe this is a well-known thing. Maybe I'm telling you something that everybody knows. Avarest's wife, I think, is Speak Easyy's wife's sister.

[00:09:39]>> Did anybody know this? Did anybody know this?

[00:09:42]>> I don't think I did know.

[00:09:43]>> Ask um I'd have to ask Dark Side. She would know better than I would >> cuz that's crazy. Unless it's a joke, but speak easyy's wife posted this on uh YouTube. She's like, "Abs had said a comment in in a reply and then she's like, oh yeah, and said something about I'm so happy about your wife in brackets my sister and your kid in brackets my niece." And I was like, "How is how has no one told me this? How's Avarest not told me that he's married to Speaky's wife's sister?" That's that's a weird connection.

[00:10:13]>> But that doesn't not America.

[00:10:17]Average is in America.

[00:10:18]>> Av is in America.

[00:10:20]>> Speakies is in Canada, right?

[00:10:22]>> Yeah, but Speaks has dual citizenship.

[00:10:24]>> Oh, okay. Okay.

[00:10:25]>> So, I don't know if that like >> But yeah, must have met cuz from Alaska, obviously. And then >> I don't I don't know where's I don't even know where Av lives now, actually.

[00:10:38]Where's Everest [ __ ] live now?

[00:10:40]>> I feel like I should know that.

[00:10:41]California. Okay, that checks out.

[00:10:43]>> E, >> that checks out. That's why he's got to be so loud. He's with those lip parts all the time, you know.

[00:10:49]>> That's why he's so fond of his uh forced abortion debate.

[00:10:58]>> But anyway, that's neither here nor there. I just thought that was a fun little pan paddleverse connection.

[00:11:02]That's so that's so cute, endearing almost. But I'll have to ask him about that to get confirmation. Anyway, William Lane Craig. Okay, Tessy, we need a bad atheist on the panel. I mean, there's a a spot specifically for a bad atheist. Not a good atheist, a bad atheist. So, I mean, cuz me and Glacier and Big Soda, we're all going to be like agreeing and that's going to be like super nice and kumbaya and stuff, but we need someone to, you know, be like >> anti us while God and suffering. We're probably not going to be on Alex Okconor's side, even though he's pretty goated for an atheist. He's kind of what I like to call a good atheist. Okay. As opposed to exhibit exhibit B over here, you know. But >> you mean Edgeword?

[00:11:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Desticular Edgelord Johnson.

[00:11:46]I think I think Ava got cucked on that data center thing. Okay. On uh what the [ __ ] is on Beth's thing. Feel like people were not listening to him.

[00:11:54]>> Nobody knows.

[00:11:56]Nobody was listening to him uh when he was trying to explain like the databases at all.

[00:12:01]>> I don't think anybody understood what he was actually trying to say. He's just like paid a premium for his database.

[00:12:07]Therefore, he should have first come, first serve because premium.

[00:12:13]>> Yeah. And everyone's like, "Are you saying you own a data center the size of Walmart?" And he's like, "I didn't say that."

[00:12:18]>> I didn't say that.

[00:12:20]>> And that was the thing. Uh, big, I don't know if you saw the stream, that was the thing I posted the clip from of Tenth Man absolutely crashing out the [ __ ] and everything and just like losing his [ __ ] mind. I don't know, Tenth Man. I don't know if that's like normal behavior. I thought that was [ __ ] crazy.

[00:12:36]AG's panel before.

[00:12:38]>> I'm gonna be honest. 8 a.m. in the morning is wild.

[00:12:41]>> I know. I like I woke up. I like see I'm like, "Oh, Beth is online. There's so many people watching." I click and I just like see 10th man losing his absolute [ __ ] I'm like, "It's 10 in the morning on a Monday. What is happening right now?"

[00:12:54]>> I'm [ __ ] work. I'm like, "Dale."

[00:12:58]>> Average is just screaming but drinking coffee. Just like guy's just like ready to go. treats to like a nineto five.

[00:13:05]Man, that was tense being cool. Yeah, maybe he's just like actually just like like that. I don't know. I've never talked to him. I don't think >> I don't think.

[00:13:13]>> I mean, I've talked to him, but I think Cipher has talked to him significantly more than I have. Um, he has some interesting takes.

[00:13:23]>> I don't mean to say this. I'm just honestly curious because I'm trying to connect people. Is Tenth Man gay or am I do I have them confused with somebody else?

[00:13:31]>> No, no, no, no. He's actually gay.

[00:13:34]Okay. I thought so because I there's somebody that I knew that EMTT had talked to before and I was trying to think if that was the same person or >> is he full gay or is he like or Avery gay?

[00:13:45]>> Married.

[00:13:48]>> Oh. Oh, damn. I heard >> apparently super gay.

[00:13:51]>> Super gay.

[00:13:53]>> Yes. As in he does mention his um husband.

[00:13:57]>> Holy [ __ ] >> man. I mean, I'm intrigued. Not by his gayness, but just by the fact that he not by that just the fact that he could just bolster such unbridled dopamine so early on a weekday is just, you know, this is crazy.

[00:14:16]>> Hell of a crash out.

[00:14:19]>> Yeah, maybe it does. Maybe being gay does make you mad. I don't know.

[00:14:24]>> We have to ask Avery if Avery is just like half mad.

[00:14:29]>> Yeah. Yeah, he's only semi mad.

[00:14:34]>> Semi mad.

[00:14:37]>> Oh, why can't I? Oh, wait. Technical difficulties. Never mind. I'm [ __ ] All right. Anyways, on to serious chicainery.

[00:14:45]>> This came out seven hours ago.

[00:14:47]>> Seven hours.

[00:14:48]>> And like I said, I found it all by myself with nobody's help at all. I just came up with it. I was like, you know what? I'm I got I had kind of a alert for videos like this. You know, I'm kind of on the ball, they say, as a professional streamer. So, yeah, I saw this video. I was like, "Yeah, I'll have to I'll have to react to it."

[00:15:03]>> What's sad is the alert probably came from Alex Okconor's side instead of William Lane Craig's side.

[00:15:11]>> I guess it kind of did in a way. I guess it kind of did if you think about it.

[00:15:18]>> That is a little sad, but you know, one of the first videos that has actually been posted, then I'm like, "Oh, hell yeah. Let's go." mainly because most of the videos that people post is just Kirk posting really lame videos that no one would ever want to watch.

[00:15:33]>> But yeah, this is actually Yeah, this is actually recent. And well, Craig, he's looking old, but he's looking he's looking pretty good. Like for how old he is. I mean, I used to watch him like god that must be like 20 years ago. And I feel like he doesn't look that much different, you know?

[00:15:46]I think he had he had some videos around the n like late 90s that I I remember watching like not in the 90s but some recorded stuff from that was recorded I guess put on YouTube later on about debates from the '90s.

[00:16:00]>> And let's remember too I always got to plug a brother not in a gay way but in a normal way that he's got two PhDs. He's got a PhD in philosophy and a PhD in theology. Bro's got double PhDs. That's why he's so freaking good at this because he can literally like do the philosophy and then go into the theology that two PhDs is that's a lot of [ __ ] school, man. That's a lot of [ __ ] school.

[00:16:23]But Alex Okconor is no uh is no uh indefensible indefense indefens when it comes to debating. So, you know, does he have a degree?

[00:16:36]>> He has a degree in philosophy of religion, but it's not I think it's just a bachelor.

[00:16:43]I think.

[00:16:45]And yes, uh yeah, before we start, yes, we are excited for racism edition trivia Tuesday.

[00:16:51]So that's going to be a thing.

[00:16:53]>> Oh, that'll be interesting.

[00:16:54]>> Glacier, you should join a trivia sometime cuz then it can't be racist cuz you are a proud woman of color if you think about it.

[00:17:01]>> Well, I it keeps on changing every time I go on to any black panels. Um they first they say I'm not black, then they say, "No, you're melanated." Then they say, "No, you're mixed." So it I I don't know what anymore.

[00:17:15]>> Would it help if I called you white, Glacier? Would that make you feel better?

[00:17:18]>> No. No, it would not.

[00:17:21]>> That's the kind of racism you can expect on racist.

[00:17:25]Somebody call accused me of being white just because they didn't agree with stupid [ __ ] black talking points. It happens all the [ __ ] time.

[00:17:32]>> Oh yeah, that's toxic. And then afterwards they said, "Turn off your canyon so you can prove that you're black." No, [ __ ] [ __ ] you.

[00:17:41]prove your blackness to us.

[00:17:42]>> She's like, I don't have to prove [ __ ] to you. [ __ ] you. I'm staying behind this damn camera. The fact that I had to do this proves that people that black people have a hide mind mentality. [ __ ] them [ __ ] >> Yeah. All I'm saying is that never happens in the white community.

[00:17:57]>> No, it doesn't.

[00:17:59]No one tells me I'm not white. That is true.

[00:18:02]>> No one has ever told me that in my entire life. Okay. But I got called Taiwanese, I suppose. So, you know, we all go through our personal struggles.

[00:18:10]>> I'm so salty. You don't have to deal with that [ __ ] >> Well, no, that's I mean, that is true.

[00:18:15]That is true. Um, second housekeeping thing. A big soda. Is Dn D tomorrow? Do we have enough story?

[00:18:22]>> Yep.

[00:18:23]>> Okay. Based red belt. I do not mean Chinese. Testicular Johnson. Okay. You know, you know there's no slurs for Taiwanese people. Why do you think that is? Cuz they're so goated and no one can come up with an insult for them. That's crazy about it.

[00:18:37]>> They really own everything.

[00:18:38]>> Well, they just don't care.

[00:18:40]>> Yeah, they're kind of like white people in that way, you know? Like all the slurs for white people are like no one would ever get offended by them. So, >> no, because white people use those slurs against each other all the time. Like, black people use slurs against each other all the time.

[00:18:54]>> Yeah, but they don't like it. Trust me, they don't like it when you say it.

[00:18:57]Well, you can say it.

[00:18:59]>> The general you. The general you. I mean, >> I have black people sling slurs at me all the damn time.

[00:19:07]>> That's it, Desty. That That's That makes me feel bad. That makes me feel Now I finally understand what it's like to be a marginalized group. I truly get it now, Desty. Thank you for You've opened my eyes.

[00:19:18]>> Yeah, we got to cler up in our political groups and defend our, you know, >> Monkey was the best you could think of.

[00:19:26]>> There's not really any like better ones.

[00:19:28]I mean, that's kind of the problem, you know. Maybe we'll find some out on rage pages racial trivia.

[00:19:33]>> I can think of some, but that I I don't think I can say that on YouTube.

[00:19:38]>> Yeah, it depends on the one.

[00:19:40]>> I know Twitch is a lot more sensitive.

[00:19:42]You couldn't say cracker on Twitch. And I still don't know if you can really say it on YouTube. Like I don't know if you can call somebody it, but you could say the word cracker.

[00:19:50]>> Big deal.

[00:19:51]>> I hope.

[00:19:53]>> But I'm talking about like the cheese, you know? So crackers and cheese. Cheese and crackers. Yeah. Testies workshop.

[00:19:59]come up with something that really offend me. Testy, actually the only thing I will say I don't like I don't like the the wasp word. I don't like that. That is actually that that gets me. That gets me. I'll say that. So I guess if you want to trigger me, you can call me a wasp. I think that's >> You know what really you know what really triggers Asians? Like hands down automatically triggers Asians.

[00:20:22]>> Hard math problems. Easy math problems.

[00:20:24]>> No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:20:27]um mislabel them as in calling a Japanese person Chinese, calling a Korean.

[00:20:35]>> Oh yeah, cuz they hate the other they hate the other.

[00:20:38]>> It's not just it's not just it's not just them hating it. They have history with each other. They all have history with each other and it is bloody bloody.

[00:20:46]>> Yeah, it's not it's not it's not pleasant. Yeah. Wasp. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, which like the acronym is fine. Sure. or don't threaten me with a good time. But like, you know, just the wasp part of like that's like a predatory animal. It's just like it's and it's a pest. It's like it's a that should not be allowed. If you can't say other slurs, you shouldn't be allowed to say a wasp. But no, we technically cannot. But maybe we could include rarified slurs for white people. We could probably get away with that.

[00:21:12]>> Yeah.

[00:21:13]>> Races though. Really?

[00:21:14]>> Maybe maybe we should reclaim wasp and start using it defensively toward others.

[00:21:19]>> What's up my wasp?

[00:21:22]I don't think a lot of white people care.

[00:21:25]>> Yeah. Yeah. We're too busy being >> disappoint if they if they even get the reference.

[00:21:32]>> Yeah. I don't know how common even that is. I just hear like Hassan and people of his ilk say that just Yeah. I don't know.

[00:21:40]>> Of all people.

[00:21:42]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:45]Especially cuz Han Asan will be white when it's convenient for him. like he'll he'll call himself white when it's expeditious and then he'll be Muslim the second that helps even though he's not religiously Muslim. He's like, "Well, I'm culturally Muslim." And then he's like Turkish the next. Just he'll just pick whatever.

[00:22:00]>> Oh my gosh. Well, that that that sounds right. That sounds about right for him.

[00:22:05]>> I will say when it comes to a Sky Daddy is annoying when people talk about God.

[00:22:09]Testy freaking does that a lot. Freaking Sky Daddy.

[00:22:13]>> You think that one's worse than Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[00:22:18]Uh, well, I feel like it's sad that I don't I don't Yeah, they're weird in different ways. They're both like Reddit atheism type stuff, but the flying spaghetti monster, I'm like, "Okay, whatever. It's like Russell's teapot or whatever." But >> the sky daddy or or the magic man, especially when someone like Indian Jesus will say it cuz it's like I feel like Indian Jesus just doesn't and if you're listening this just I freaking mean this. He just doesn't understand what I ever mean by God. And so when he says magic man or sky daddy, I think he's just like being sincere and that's what bugs me. Whereas when Anson says, "Oh, when you all talk to your imaginary friend or whatever," that doesn't really bug me cuz I'm like, "Oh, it's Anson.

[00:22:57]He's, you know, trying to get under my skin and he he knows better. He knows what's up, you know." But when it's like when it's the when it's the the other type of atheist that say it, you know, like Aaron Aaron Ro of the world or the who's the guy that got wrecked by Andrew Wilson? Oh, >> Matt Deah Hunty.

[00:23:17]>> Oh my gosh, that didn't take >> those people.

[00:23:20]>> That was a That was a generational crash out.

[00:23:23]>> And see what's wild.

[00:23:26]>> Sky daddy. See, that's the thing. And he says it's so accurate. See, that's what triggers me that because he thinks that's an accurate term. He thinks that's like what people actually believe in when they mean God. That's what's the triggering thing, you know.

[00:23:37]>> Yeah. Well, you don't know anything about unrealized and realized, so I I don't I don't take him too serious.

[00:23:44]>> How can you? Well, how can you? Gosh, I can't even take Protestants seriously.

[00:23:48]>> Oh, whoa, whoa. Easy now. Easy.

[00:23:50]>> Whoa, whoa, friendly fire. We're going after some bad atheists in the comments.

[00:23:55]>> Yeah, come on now.

[00:23:56]>> You got to tell me you're not going to pray with me next. Jeez. Come on.

[00:24:00]>> Well, I'm the doc, so >> you're a freaking woman. Aren't you supposed to like be subservient and crap?

[00:24:09]>> You're not gonna let me lead the prayer.

[00:24:11]You're gonna be all like women brain while you're trying to freaking pray.

[00:24:14]You're your uterus is going to pollute your spirituality to the point that you can't even pray.

[00:24:19]>> I can't be with you. Like I can't be with you praying. You're not a part of the true church.

[00:24:24]>> That's crazy.

[00:24:26]>> I'm going to become an Orthodox just so I can become an Orthodox man. And I'll be like, I'm sorry, Glacier. I have to lead. I'm a man. your hysteria is going to get in the way. Like, oh, oh, you're right. My religion teaches me that >> if you were a cate an Orthodox catechum, I wouldn't have to say [ __ ] >> Yeah. I remember when when Jesus was praying for everybody and he kicked out all the non-Orthodox people.

[00:24:50]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:24:53]>> He's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. You're Protestant. You got to you got to go around somewhere.

[00:24:57]>> Get out of here."

[00:25:01]>> See? See? That's that bugs me more than what anything an atheist would say.

[00:25:07]>> There's nothing an atheist could say that bothers me more.

[00:25:12]>> We treat it like a Mormon.

[00:25:15]>> Oh, I'm I'm sorry. I'm so I'm really salty over this some stupid idiot that was trying to claim that he was debunking the Orthodox Church and just like you got nothing. you you're misrepresenting everything and you got >> Yeah, I was gonna say I'm thankful for the Orthodox Church because to be honest if there's no Protestantism without Orthodoxy. There's no Bible without orthodoxy.

[00:25:38]>> No, better yet, there's no Protestant with um Protestantism without the Catholics specifically.

[00:25:44]>> See, see, I was saying that I was saying, well, I agree with that. I agree with with that as well. But there's no there's nothing to break off of for Protestants if we don't have an original structure. And I would say the original structure is orthodoxy, not Catholicism.

[00:25:58]Catholicism against >> Yeah. If there was no like, you know, holy apostolic church, what would I be like against in my esotericism? You know, there would be no like foil to my theology. The whole thing wouldn't work, you know?

[00:26:13]>> True.

[00:26:14]>> Does that make sense?

[00:26:15]>> Yeah.

[00:26:16]>> Not really.

[00:26:18]I mean it kind of definitionally does I can't be outside of the church or a protestant if there is no church >> church is not possible >> then then yes then absolutely yes >> long day I had a long day routinely through this >> can't we all just beef with the Catholics and get along >> testy bro I know You want to claim that we're delusional, but like you were the one that was decided to be an edge lord earlier.

[00:26:55]>> Jesse's being an edge lord now. That's in his nature. Okay.

[00:27:00]>> He has no off switch.

[00:27:02]>> Oh, really? That's unfortunate for him.

[00:27:04]>> Well, his off switch is when he joins the panel, actually.

[00:27:09]>> He's a completely different entirely different person.

[00:27:12]>> Entirely different. Completely different. like light and darkness.

[00:27:19]>> He'll he'll he'll throw bait out and then and then he'll get in front of you and he'll be like, "Oh, no. Yeah, you know." Oh.

[00:27:25]>> Oh, you can get edgier. Interesting.

[00:27:29]>> Yes. He's just too nice in real life.

[00:27:31]Well, I guess I haven't met him in real life, but in like voice. It's kind of like, do you remember the dude how I'll never forget that the dude was like really going after somebody and then someone paid a one v one and then the dude was just trying to like plate him like the entire time and I'm like what the [ __ ] is this? You had such high energy going into this and as soon as the one v one happens he's like no I don't actually want like you >> like what? Where' that energy go?

[00:27:56]>> Not what I paid for.

[00:28:00]We do know where Kirk is right now and he never told us he was doing this. We will be reacting to this probably on Saturday, I'm thinking because I mean don't threaten me with a good time.

[00:28:11]>> See, I always thought >> it's going to be fun.

[00:28:13]>> I always thought Kirk was Christian cuz the way he talks about it, but then he started talking about the Noahidism and I was just like, bro, what the [ __ ] >> Well, you don't just mean you found that out today, I'm assuming, right?

[00:28:27]>> About what?

[00:28:28]>> The Noah hide stuff. Kirk talks about being a no all time.

[00:28:31]>> That's what Well, no. When I when I first met him, I we were talking about something religious and he was bringing up like a lot of things about Jesus Christ. So, I was assuming, oh yeah, this guy's, you know, he has some base takes and I figured him being a Christian was one of them. And then he started talking about the Noah height [ __ ] and I was like, we're damn.

[00:28:51]>> And then his double circumcision. Can someone super chat and and ask Kirk to talk about his double circumcision, please? Please, somebody super chat that.

[00:29:00]>> Wait, wait, wait. Double circumcision.

[00:29:03]>> Kirk has been circumcised twice.

[00:29:05]>> What?

[00:29:06]>> Because he was, this is how he explained it. It's a real thing. I looked it up.

[00:29:09]So, he he was circumcised as a baby.

[00:29:12]>> And then when he got older, he wanted to convert to a liberal branch of Judaism.

[00:29:16]I don't think he said which one. Not the Noah thing, but before. And they said that to convert, you have to be circumcised. And if you're not circumcised, you have to do a symbolic circumcision where which is where they prick your prick with a bur in and like draw blood. So they don't cut anything, but they like stab it with a little like needle thing. And he went through this.

[00:29:36]He went down to like the synagogue and they stabbed this prick with a prick and they collected some blood and stuff. And this is a real thing that happened. So he technically been double circumcised.

[00:29:44]Yep.

[00:29:45]>> Someone should donate the speak easy during the Q&A.

[00:29:51]>> Okay. I don't know. I don't even know what to say to that.

[00:29:56]>> Nothing.

[00:29:56]>> Yeah, just shocked. I mean, I made him walk through all the details. I mean, I was I mean, you got to you got to >> I mean, I'll I'll I'll let it I'll let it be. It was just >> I mean, one circumcision, I mean, that's proper. Everyone should go through that, of course. But whose circumcisions now?

[00:30:18]That's just crazy.

[00:30:19]>> That's just insane.

[00:30:22]Anyway, William Lane, Craig, I skipped to where they start talking, so we skip the intros because when we start watching intros, we just never even start the video. If you think about it, philosophers like to make distinctions and answering questions.

[00:30:37]So, when Johnny asks, "What reasons are there to believe in God?"

[00:30:43]It's important to distinguish between believing in God and believing that God exists.

[00:30:50]Believing in God means trusting in God, committing one's life to God and worship and love and obedience. And the reason you should do that is obvious because God is the supreme uh benefactor. He is the source of eternal life, the source of forgiveness and salvation. So clearly you should believe in God. But I think Johnny's real >> so I'm very distracted by Podesta.

[00:31:21]Podesta I would actually say that I would say man is in the image of the universe.

[00:31:25]>> I think that's actually true. Is that heresy glacier?

[00:31:29]>> I don't know why I would ask you. You're just a lowly woman.

[00:31:33]>> I mean I can leave.

[00:31:36]>> I'm I'm trying to get a one up on you cuz if you can be orthodox then I need something to win over that which would be the man card. Okay.

[00:31:46]What else do I have as a Protestant?

[00:31:50]But no, a a sincere question. Is that a heresy to say that man is made in the image of the universe? Because I would actually think that I think man is the microcosm, the universe is the macrocosm, as above so below, etc. >> No, I don't think so. From the eight eight ecumenical councils, I don't think there's anything referring to uh like the definitive like man made in the image of God. I don't think that was something that they had to I guess establish and >> I don't think that was much of a priority. I'm >> I think they knew that.

[00:32:22]>> Did they say anything against it though is the question, right?

[00:32:27]>> No.

[00:32:28]>> I don't think the concept of the universe came up too often, but I'm not sure.

[00:32:36]>> Like man is kind of like the earth but in like a micro scale, you know? Like we have a whole world living inside us if you think about it. Like all the cells and stuff and the bacteria.

[00:32:44]>> Careful, man. You're starting to sound like the LDS.

[00:32:48]>> Is that what they say? They're kind of they're kind of based sometimes. I'm not gonna lie. You get your own universe when you die.

[00:32:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. That the universe [ __ ] where it's just like I think but like I'm I'm hearing contradictory things from it where it's just like you get your own universe but you have no control over it at the same time. I I don't know. LDS is weird.

[00:33:07]>> They do get strange.

[00:33:09]>> But no, I think I think man is made in the image of God. I think the universe is arguably at least it's a reflection of man.

[00:33:16]>> I guess God made the universe first. So I guess but it's a man who's reflected in universe and vice versa.

[00:33:23]>> I have a question about Alex. Um is he still a determinist?

[00:33:29]>> Uh last I heard yes. Last I heard.

[00:33:32]>> Oh dear. He hasn't learned anything.

[00:33:34]>> Hey, he stopped being a vegan. Although that was for health reasons, but at least he's not a vegan.

[00:33:38]>> [ __ ] [ __ ] Like most vegans stop being vegans because of health.

[00:33:44]>> Hey, not our boy Brandon. Okay. He's trucking along strong. He says, "All you need, this is a direct quote." He says, "You don't even have to eat any food.

[00:33:51]You just have one can of White Monster a day and that's all your supplements."

[00:33:56]Unironically, that's a direct quote from Brandon.

[00:33:58]>> Monster.

[00:33:59]>> And I mean, he's pretty buff, so >> it seems to be working.

[00:34:03]>> Brandon.

[00:34:04]>> Oh, you don't know Brandon? He's our resident bro.

[00:34:06]>> Yeah.

[00:34:08]>> Okay.

[00:34:10]>> You never seen him? He's like got a beard, sits kind of sideways. He's like bald.

[00:34:15]>> He's really smart. talk slow.

[00:34:17]>> No.

[00:34:18]>> Calm.

[00:34:19]>> Yeah. Very calm.

[00:34:21]>> Just no.

[00:34:23]I mean, uh, >> you would like him, I think.

[00:34:26]>> Would I?

[00:34:27]>> I think See, he's he's a very appable person. The only person who's ever got into a fight with him really is probably Emtt, I think.

[00:34:34]>> Well, as a person, I think you would like him.

[00:34:38]I think you would probably dislike him for what he believes.

[00:34:41]>> Yeah. Like, he is an atheist. He thinks all morals are just like preference based. I'm not really doing him a good cell because but he's but he's he's good to talk to like he's incredibly good faith.

[00:34:51]>> He's very smart. Uh well versed in philosophy um well versed in argumentation >> and he's never trying to like win an argument like he's always just trying to like explain or understand or ask questions. Like you never feel like it's going in like an unword direction. No, >> he's not the type of guy to trap you or look like look for the easy uh W or the easy argument. He's just Yeah, he's good faith, >> right? Okay. Okay, got it.

[00:35:21]>> We're like hyping up Brandon so much now.

[00:35:23]>> Yeah, but he's 38.

[00:35:26]>> I mean, I >> I got be props anyway.

[00:35:34][ __ ] >> You're gonna align with us against the atheist. Okay.

[00:35:37]>> [ __ ] wild like halfway through.

[00:35:41]>> I think I like this guy.

[00:35:42]>> I'm sorry. I'm salty. I'm salty. Okay.

[00:35:45]I'm honest. I'm salty. Um I was talking to some loser. I I I managed to irk some loser online earlier today. I think the loser's name was like Alton or some [ __ ] and then he blocked me because he didn't like what I had to say.

[00:36:02]>> Yeah. I mean, look, we know the problems with Protestantism. As a fellow Protestant, I know the [ __ ] problems with Protestantism.

[00:36:10]>> They can appreciate that.

[00:36:11]>> Well, I I we agree almost I I would say probably like 95% of things. There's probably two things that you would say that we would disagree on, and that would be the body of the church and then uh well, no, you probably believe the filio way is only or the procession of the Holy Spirit is through the is only from the father. Correct. Like you would take that stance.

[00:36:35]>> Yeah, she's an Orthodox. I hope so.

[00:36:37]>> Yeah, >> I I'm I'm an Orthodox inquirer. I'm still learning.

[00:36:46]>> Get off, Protestant.

[00:36:49]Pray with me. That's [ __ ] You're out of your tree. That's messed up.

[00:36:53]>> Diane, you should definitely join.

[00:36:54]>> That's still part of That's still a part of church teachings.

[00:36:58]No, that's like saying, "Oh, I I go to the university or I study biology and you just so happen to walk past the [ __ ] university."

[00:37:09]>> Yeah.

[00:37:09]>> No, it's not.

[00:37:12]>> Look, until you look, you're just as Protestant as I am until you actually join the body of the church.

[00:37:17]>> That's true. Yeah. Get catechized, Glacier, and then talk to us. Okay.

[00:37:22]>> That's a process, guys. If you haven't noticed, that's a process that takes time, you know. I can't just say, "Oh, I believe in God and everything's just washed over me." Who's that?

[00:37:32]>> Well, that's what happens if you're Protestant. So, that's a skill issue if you can't do that.

[00:37:37]>> You could just say a quick little prayer with us, Glacier, and then you're freaking in it to win it. Okay.

[00:37:42]>> Yeah. That's why I ran away. It made no sense. It was so [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Well, yeah. You want You want have to work for your salvation. I see.

[00:37:50]>> Yeah.

[00:37:50]>> You feel like Christ's gift is just too precious. You have to self flag. I want hard mode. No, I got it.

[00:38:00]That's acceptable.

[00:38:02]Rage page. Disavow. Disavow. Haven't had to hit people.

[00:38:08]>> I still am on that. I still am on that Bud Light boycott still. Okay. Some people say I still actually I won't buy like I love Budlight Lime. I won't [ __ ] drink it still to this day.

[00:38:19]Okay. Most conservatives have [ __ ] abandoned that. I'm the [ __ ] realist of the conservatives. Okay.

[00:38:24]>> Wait. Why would you drink uh Budw like Budweiser?

[00:38:29]>> Why would I or why wouldn't I?

[00:38:31]>> Yeah, why would you?

[00:38:33]>> Well, like I said, Bud Light lime is actually quite delicious. And sometimes Bud is like the cheap cheapest thing or it's on sale or you're at a party and stuff.

[00:38:40]>> Yeah, that's the point. It's cheap.

[00:38:43]>> Yeah, sometimes you want cheap beer.

[00:38:45]Sometimes you're at a party and someone throws you a Bud Light and when they're they're trying to trans you, by the way, when they do that and you you become a little trans. You got to like [ __ ] dodge out of the way of those Bud Lights, man. For real. Like unironically, >> I don't like Okay. I I don't like bear as a baseline. Anyways, the only thing I could tolerate is Yingling.

[00:39:04]>> That sounds like a That sounds like a Chinese woman.

[00:39:07]>> Yeah.

[00:39:08]>> No, no. Um, it might be >> I drink some Ying or whatever he said.

[00:39:14]>> It might be.

[00:39:14]>> I'm actually drinking some >> I need to check. Oh, but I >> can't even tell. Someone tell me what language this is. I'm [ __ ] Is this showing up on camera?

[00:39:22]>> No, >> absolutely not.

[00:39:25]>> No.

[00:39:25]>> Come on, light. Oh, wait. Wait. How do I block the Oh, there we go.

[00:39:30]>> Is that Is that Korean?

[00:39:32]>> What language is that? I honestly don't know.

[00:39:35]>> It's Korean.

[00:39:35]>> Is it?

[00:39:36]>> Yeah.

[00:39:36]>> Oh, okay.

[00:39:37]>> Is that soju?

[00:39:39]>> Uh, I don't I don't know.

[00:39:42]>> So, soju, I believe, is a Korean vehicle.

[00:39:44]>> Oh, it is soju. Oh, it's got a Korean flag at the top. Oh, [ __ ] I didn't even realize that. Yeah, it's got a Korean flag. Okay. I didn't see that. I just saw it today and I thought it looked >> the real question. We talked from North.

[00:39:58]>> Um, North Korea. It says it as an expert Korea. Says all the supreme leader.

[00:40:04]>> That flag says otherwise, bro.

[00:40:07]>> The real Korea.

[00:40:09]>> The only Korea.

[00:40:11]>> It is quite tasty. It's got lia. I've never had soju before. I've heard of it though, but it's delicious.

[00:40:16]>> I've had soju. So Soju is tasty.

[00:40:21]It's like a better version of saki.

[00:40:23]Maybe that's cuz it's got flavoring in it, though.

[00:40:25]>> Well, saki is entirely different from soju.

[00:40:30]>> What's this? What is this made of?

[00:40:32]>> Sake.

[00:40:33]>> Saki. Like the rice wine.

[00:40:35]>> No. Sake.

[00:40:38]>> What? That's like saying that's like calling a a pinina colada a pina colada.

[00:40:43]Okay. Everyone calls it sake. Okay.

[00:40:44]Okay. But sake sake is literally spelled s a k e. Sake.

[00:40:50]>> Yeah. No one no one says that. Do you say Nintendo or do you say Nintendo?

[00:40:57]>> Nintendo gives a [ __ ] >> But okay. What is soju though? Yeah. I just got a blue J blue J codeed elders.

[00:41:08]Yeah. Do it automatically.

[00:41:09]>> I mean I can >> like what's it made of? Like if if >> Let me look it up. Let me look it up.

[00:41:14]How' you What's your gay pronunciation of uh >> It's made out of rice.

[00:41:17]>> Of the rice wine.

[00:41:18]>> Is it also Oh, it's made out of rice.

[00:41:20]>> Sake. I don't know. I'm asking.

[00:41:23]>> If it is, then this is a better version of of sake because this tastes way better if they're both made out of rice.

[00:41:30]Unless it's made of something else.

[00:41:31]>> Hold on. Hold on. Um distilled. It's a spirit made from rice. Okay. Yeah, it is made from rice.

[00:41:37]>> Okay. But I will say the third ingredient in this is sugar. So that is >> has a neutral neutral vodka like taste. Sweet. Um then let's look up sake. Um sake or saki.

[00:41:52]Hold on.

[00:41:52]>> Saki I know it's just is just rice wine.

[00:41:54]Yeah. So >> hold on.

[00:41:57]>> Well, you don't believe me, but my Japanese alcohol knowledge.

[00:42:01]>> Are there types of uh sake that have uh flavoring in it?

[00:42:06]>> So yeah, this >> I don't know. I've never seen them.

[00:42:09]>> Wine. So, this is wine. But what it but they just call um they just call it a distilled spirit instead.

[00:42:20]>> I know. I feel like sake is usually stronger cuz this is at least Well, I don't know. At least this one's like 12%. I feel like the sake I had was more like 15 to like 20%.

[00:42:30]>> And it it's good, but it tastes it's not something you want to like drink drink, you know? You want to like sip it. The overview states that they're about similar, so it depends on the brand.

[00:42:40]>> Oh, because this does have a lot of uh flavor in it. Like you I would boof this in a heartbeat. I would want to boo freaking sake.

[00:42:50]>> And then there's Genshu.

[00:42:53]Oh, wait. No, that's sake. So sake has Genshu. And Genshu is um much more concentrated.

[00:42:59]That's a wild statement.

[00:43:04]What?

[00:43:06]>> He's He's talking about bofin.

[00:43:09]>> You're the only one that picked it up.

[00:43:11]>> Start the fermentation. How >> dare you?

[00:43:14]>> Just like I remember watching Oh my gosh. It's interesting. Like all all the like uh I think rum is distilled from sugar.

[00:43:25]>> Cane sugar if I recall.

[00:43:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. It was one of the first things. It was like I think it was one of the first ways that they could ever think of to actually preserve it because um sugar uh sugar didn't last. They they didn't they couldn't figure out a way of making it of preserving sugar.

[00:43:41]>> Um so it had to be cooked immediately.

[00:43:43]>> Have you ever like chew on like just raw cane sugar?

[00:43:47]>> Yeah.

[00:43:47]>> They sell it in like Asian grocery markets. It's like a giant like >> Jamaica does it all the time.

[00:43:53]>> It's um Jamaica does it all the time.

[00:43:55]Jamaica.

[00:43:56]>> Oh, Jamaica. Um, it was a great way of cleaning off your teeth, actually.

[00:44:01]>> Well, now that you told me Jamaica does it, now I feel like I can't enjoy it as much. I thought this was like a a white >> Asian white country. What the [ __ ] >> Like a wasp thing, you know? I thought only West >> [ __ ] you was think [ __ ] You took my [ __ ] sugar cane. Taking it back, [ __ ] Can't say I have rage page. Can't say I have.

[00:44:33]>> That's a strange question.

[00:44:34]>> Oh my gosh. No. No. I >> have not. I have not.

[00:44:37]>> No. No. I don't want to think about it.

[00:44:39]>> Wait, we did have that one person on stream.

[00:44:42]>> Wildart.

[00:44:43]>> Yeah, >> he didn't drink it. Thankfully, he didn't know. He didn't drink it. He didn't drink it. I was the only voice of reason. Okay. Trying to put a stop to that chicainery >> talking about it. I'm gonna be honest.

[00:44:56]Sometimes our panels get out of control.

[00:45:00]>> No, he's a wasa, I guess. A white Anglo-Saxon atheist.

[00:45:04]>> Yeah.

[00:45:04]>> Yeah. Wasa.

[00:45:06]>> Oh, what's up? What's up? What's up?

[00:45:08]>> Oh, that's disgusting. Okay, I don't I don't want to think about it.

[00:45:10]>> Okay, back to suffering. As if we haven't suffered enough.

[00:45:14]>> Question is, >> you're talking about drinking your beer.

[00:45:16]>> Believe that God exists. You can't believe in God if you don't believe that God exists. And in my philosophical work, I've defended both what I call exterior and interior ways of answering that question. Exterior arguments and evidences concern a philosophical.

[00:45:44]>> Can I speed them up? I feel like they're talking really slow. Or maybe my mind is just moving faster than the average human. you know slow just >> no I think it's that I'm just really smart >> sure whatever hope that you need >> that uh lead to the existence of God for example I've defended six of these in my work first that God is the best explanation anything >> rather than nothing second that God is the best explan no the universe at a point in the finite past thirdly god is the best explanation for the uncanny applicability of mathematics to the physical phenomena Fourth, God is the best explanation for the incomprehensible fine-tuning of the universe for embodied interactive life.

[00:46:27]Fifth, God is the best explanation for the objectivity of moral values and duties in the world. And finally, six, the very possibility of God's existence uh implies that God exists.

[00:46:40]Now, >> whoa, I want to hear about that last one. The very possibility of God existing, what did he say? Allows that or means God exists. it means that God exists. It's sort of weird listening to this because I didn't learn about uh Orthodox theology until just about six months ago. And the fact that there was always like one of the like one of the earliest forms of education was always philosophy and like one of the things that was well established in the past was um the philosophical basis of God's existence.

[00:47:19]But um >> it's been forgotten over time.

[00:47:26]>> Um and so just listening to him talk about these concepts. It's just like none of these are actually like regarded.

[00:47:34]>> Well, they used to have you might know about this Glacier. They used to have like what's called like the trivium and the quadrium and stuff back in like the old olden days where they would teach like the it was like I can't remember what the sets are but it was like >> oh classical education. Yeah. So philosophy and like geometry and like rhetoric and like they had like these and these are like the foundational things.

[00:47:54]>> Um how it's broken down was grammar, logic and rhetoric I believe were the fir were the um first three schools.

[00:48:05]>> Yeah, I think I need >> I need Yeah, I need to research how it was broken down again. But yeah, >> and it's like and it's funny cuz it's like I think the quadrum adds I think rhetoric to that and then geometry is added at some point because there's it goes I don't know if the I can't remember if the trivia the quadrum there's like three things and then four other things but I remember going through them and it's like we only I realized we only like really learn like one of them now in like a K through 12 education cuz we barely learn grammar realistically like we really don't like I I wasn't taught how to use a semicolon in K through2 like I was not taught at all that's something I had to learn on my own, which is like crazy.

[00:48:41]>> Oh, dear lord. Your education was [ __ ] then. Um, but yeah. No.

[00:48:44]>> Did you I mean, Big Soda, did you learn how to use a semicolon in school? That was never even mentioned, >> I believe. So, >> what is a semicolon, Big Soda? Do you remember? Do you remember?

[00:48:56]>> It's just >> a lot of people treat it like a super comma and it is not.

[00:49:02]>> I forgot. You know what? I forgot because of how [ __ ] our education um how [ __ ] American education has been for God knows how long. We were better off without the department of education. It needs to be burnt to the ground >> possibly.

[00:49:16]We barely learn grammar.

[00:49:18]>> It does. It does need to be burnt to the ground. It hasn't been do it hasn't done dicty.

[00:49:23]>> It is crazy that there's no logic class in school. Like I don't I feel like that sounds really stupid for me to say, but I mean in a sincere way. the fact that there's not like pot as like just like some basic like basic like informal logic even you know >> it's just weird. It's weird that like that stuff used to be the foundations.

[00:49:41]Like that's the weird thing about looking at the trivia and the quadrum and compared to now it's like we have we have vacuumed out all of those things except like geometry which we teach to some small extent and that's like everything else we barely teach it at all. Like grammar I guess we teach a bit but not really. It's mainly just intuitive. It's there's like a brief stuff about this is a noun is a verb is an adverb and that's basically it. You know, at least in my experience, >> people barely know how to read. And if you you teach logic, that means you are teaching critical thinking. And um our society right now does not want children to know how to critically think.

[00:50:14]But it's like is that like okay so that's the that's the maybe one angle but it's like I guess what's actually practically happening like is anyone sitting at the top who's like making these curricula or like deciding at the department of education and being like you know what we don't want these kids to critically think you know we don't want that >> they keep on okay that's why they keep on changing the um criteria of what a child needs to read midyear constantly many teachers are fleeing from this industry because they have no sense of accountability from the um when it comes to the kids whether from the parents end or even the administration end. On top of that, the majority of the budget for the kids um for for like each and individual kids that budget is um getting gobbled up by the administration. And what what proof do we have that any of these kids are actually learning? The more money that we flood into it, we're not getting results. We haven't been getting results. We never had any results that prove that the um that our education system has been providing a benefit to us at all. Our literacy rates are already at 20% and rising. The last time we had literacy that high was over 150 years ago.

[00:51:32]>> Yeah, it is shocking looking at the amount of illiterate people.

[00:51:36]>> Whoa. Whoa. What if I were illiterate people? I feel like I'm being attacked right now. Nothing, brother. Nothing.

[00:51:44]>> But like, okay, but Glacier, I still I guess I more mean like what is this?

[00:51:48]Like, what would these people say, I guess, is what I mean. Cuz it's not like it's not like teachers or the or board offices or superintendents or the Department of Education. None of these people are going to say, "We I don't want kids to not critically think." And I would even go so far, if I'm going to be good faith, to think that they're not actually consciously thinking that.

[00:52:07]They're not sitting there thinking in their head, we got to stop Americans from critically thinking. We got to stop them from reading. We got to really like cuz they're then they're going to get too smart and they're going to vote Republican. I don't think they're actually thinking that. You know, they're definitely not saying it, but I also don't think they're thinking it.

[00:52:21]So, I guess I'm curious. What do you think they're actually thinking? Like, because that's the result. We both agree on the result, but I don't know if that's the intention. It seems too too maybe doomer pill to me to think that the all these like administrative people and like the people in the department are like sitting there being like yeah how can we keep kids stupid and feat and and and and feckless and you know and all this I don't think they're actually like wanting that you know >> I agree that's the result happening is that the majority of the funds there um the administration is getting overpaid and a lot of it might just very well be from outside donation from certain um companies that are desiring a very um very specific political agenda to be pushed into schools and they will pass through those specific political agendas while being paid to do so.

[00:53:16]>> As in their incentive is just the financing, not so much about whether they care about the students well-being or education.

[00:53:26]But okay, I I feel like that explains it on a budget level, but I guess if you're designing a curricula, why would you why would you disclude is that a word?

[00:53:37]Exclude maybe. Why would you exclude things like like formal logic or informal logic or rhetoric or philosophy? Like what would what's the motive to exclude like the good faith motive? Now you're >> what are these people telling themselves at night to when they're like when they're vacuuming out all this stuff that we've been talking about?

[00:53:56]>> They are claiming that what they're learning is the most um influential as well as the next big thing for education in general and this is the next new thing that will help it. Nobody is reflecting upon what was effective in the past because remember well if you don't know the current model of a public school education is not even a classical education. We've we've done away with that a long time ago. What we're focusing on now is actually a Prussian model where you're not even taught to learn. you were taught to listen to a bell and make sure that you go from place to place um on time and even some people will clearly state will state this is just like if you want to be successful at wherever you work show up on time. So it is not about a it is not about trying to create critical thinkers or just thinkers in general. It is about showing up. Um, it's about having workers and a worker doesn't necessarily need to think. But we are also incentivizing and telling people that if you want to be smart, make sure you go ahead and go off to higher education because that's the only way that you can prove you're smart because once you have that little paper, that that degree, you'll get a better job. But they don't talk about how much debt that you go into, especially if you go into a specific um uh form of education that might be like a study. It doesn't have any practical knowledge or or they don't tell you to be prepared.

[00:55:28]>> Before we move on to that, I think you said something like superb based.

[00:55:32]>> I I think I think you really hit the nail on the head. I think it's almost like like when you were talking about like that we're always finding the next best thing. It's like we're we're almost like building a structure. It's almost like a pyramid and we're like building upwards, but then at some point we're like, "Fuck the base of the pyramid."

[00:55:48]So, it's almost like what's the newest and greatest thing? Oh, is it is it what's more most important for kids to know? Is it is it is it this current issue? Is it this No one should crucify me on the left for saying this, but critical race theory? Is it like is it the postmodernist stuff? Whatever literary analysis. It's like the newest and greatest fields that we think is going to help, but then by doing that, I think they probably just end up leaving out those foundations because they're like they take them for granted. So like those are just like [ __ ] those things.

[00:56:14]We're just going to move on to like those like higher like pinnacle of the pyramid. But by doing so, you're just like cutting off the [ __ ] base of all thinking and you're not teaching from the ground up anymore. It really does feel like that where you're learning like I remember like like it's I guess the cleanest example is I never was really beyond like the basics I mentioned like what's a verb, what's a noun and I went to school in Canada and America. So [ __ ] you all saying it's the education system. It's I never learned about grammar besides the very basic stuff. Never learned about rhetoric.

[00:56:42]Never learned about like any type of like logic or anything like this. But I learned about literary analysis and how to like analyze a poem and all this stuff. And it's like that's fine but that's like up here on the pyramid. You should do that once you understand the grammar and the rhetoric and and the logic and all that and then you can move up to like something like literary analysis. But it's crazy to just like be like we need this. So we're going to cut out we're just going to [ __ ] vacuum out all the foundation that made this thing work in the first place. Good to see you Abe.

[00:57:10]>> Hey.

[00:57:11]>> Hi.

[00:57:12]>> I like your haircut.

[00:57:13]>> Thank you Abe. You're the first person to comment on it.

[00:57:18]>> How's it going?

[00:57:19]>> Hello Glacia. Good to see you. Good to see you, too.

[00:57:27]>> I was referencing how it was a prioritizing of novelty, but right now with um AI's existence, they're trying to force um AI into public education as a way of the next step. But the thing is is that what not many people seem to realize is AI is currently a a bubble at best, an economic bubble at best. But um people people don't really seem to know that or understand how useful AI the potential of AI can be and how poorly managed AI is. But that is what is happening.

[00:58:03]>> Before we go into the AI thing, I have to I just have to rage against Testy for a second cuz Testy, I understand A's cameras on so I'm going to move him up.

[00:58:10]Sorry A cover you with a super chat or a normal chat. Speaking of super chats, they'll get those in too. Um, so Tessy, you I acknowledge what you're saying that stuff stuff evolves over time. And I can't tell if you're just trying to bait me. Maybe you're fully baiting me, but you still you can't take away the foundations. I think you would agree with that, right? Like you would still need to know some like baselines of like informal logic at the very least. Let's say like that you you would agree that's always like helpful to know or like to know grammar and rhetoric is helpful before you're studying like literary analysis in my example, right? So I understand you're going to you are you I get that desire is sincere. I think on like the left making the curricula is they want to they want to teach what they see as the most like you know supreme pinnacle of the pyramid. I'm just saying that to get there you have to have some foundation and you have to kind of work your way up. You don't have to like reinvent the wheel every time but there has to be some solid foundation. And maybe again maybe you agree and you're just trying to you know troll me a little bit but >> I mean well well he he's already making a presupposition is just like societies evolve over time. Well, evolution does not mean improvement. And I don't think enough people seem to understand that concept. Evolution doesn't really necessarily mean improvement. The average child in the past was significantly more educated and smarter than the average child of today. that child in the past was likely um almost possibly even smarter than to some of um than an adult because of how radically changed the education system has been.

[00:59:39]They they we aren't being taught the foundations so that we can actually learn how to build upon them. Anyways, the classical education was intended to build thinkers. The Prussian model I told you is built to make workers.

[00:59:54]That's a foundational difference.

[00:59:56]>> I agree with you, Glacier. And this is what I wanna I want to sort of briefly say this to testy before I lose track of his chat. The thing with rhetoric though, and I think everyone on pal will probably agree with this is it's like I agree IQ. Okay, IQ gone up. Okay, that's cool. And in that in that type of intelligence, I think we've increased.

[01:00:12]But if you look at any like literary work from like even a hundred years ago, I said this on panel before. I remember reading a normal like it was like a magazine article about like how to write good like spy fiction or something or like mystery novels and it was from like the 1900s and the the language and like the the beauty of the words for just a what the average person was expected to read which was like a normal periodical was so far above what you'd ever see today in like almost anything. It's like it was incredible. And it's like that used to be if you read a newspaper from back in the day, the language they used, the the way they said stuff. Like I think rhetoric is important. We've gotten like we have an IQ that that fetishizes IQ and like things like STEM and stuff, which is good. I mean, everyone loves STEM, but we have like lost sight of like all the other stuff.

[01:00:57]>> Yeah.

[01:00:58]>> I don't know if I I don't know if I where I disagree with Glacier, but >> I don't even know how he could make the claim that they don't need rhetoric.

[01:01:06]like your your your rhetoric is the ability to effectively communicate with other human beings. So, >> it's it's we're we're living in a world that actually thrives off of rhetoric.

[01:01:17]Especially when you talk about politics, you're already you're already engaging in rhetoric. How we formalize our debates, how we organize our debates, that is rhetoric.

[01:01:26]>> Yes.

[01:01:28]>> Yes. And and other things that fall into that is things like semantics, which means you've got to actually understand the things you're saying. So you have to build some level of intellect to even utilize that rhetoric. So you've got to have uh some linguistic knowledge, some semantic knowledge, and then you can combine those and use the rhetoric and the ability to weave a story and convince an audience or even just another party. All of those things take intelligence and are important in the human uh system. Period.

[01:01:59]which is why it was considered to be one of the last things that you learned in a classical education. Actually, um here here's the funny thing. Whenever you grab a book from the past, say it's like what is it? Like I when I say the past, I mean like um Isaac Newton or um what was the other one? Uh Darwin. [ __ ] I can't remember all their names. But if you were to grab a book from the past and you can try and you read it over how they use their language, it is very simplistic and they are able to demonstrate concepts that are very complex but they are able to break it down to be as simplistic as possible so that anybody could read it and review it, understand it and grasp it. That used to be the baseline of how to convey your thoughts in um older literature.

[01:02:48]today. It's so minut and convoluted and deliberately so as a way of saying that they're smart, but it's just like the only people that will understand it are people that are specifically specialized in their specific field believing the same dialectics as they do.

[01:03:05]It's funny what you just said reminded me of uh a line from equilibrium where they're sitting at the table and because the one is not taking their daily medication to keep their emotions in check, they're they're asked a question and the kid is speaking and one of the parents is like, "Clarify your speech.

[01:03:24]Clarify your speech." And they keep saying it until the child literally monotones it out and then says only what's basic and what's needed for the communication and nothing more or less.

[01:03:38]>> Yeah, it's a little haunting. I feel like we have I mean do we all agree that that the quality of books has gone downhill in that way that there's like >> I mean I like literature >> I've often thought of like what exactly happened because it seems in my estimation it's because I read a lot of stuff from like the the early 1900s but it seems like it happened before I mean I don't know >> maybe maybe it time of like movies and stuff I guess but it seems like somewhere around like the 50s or 60s it like the stuff just like got too bad and now it's like Infinite Gest is like the best example of like a literary classic of our like modern era and it's like I've tried man I can't do it.

[01:04:20]>> Well I have you ever picked up a book like um I I I like reading well I try to get into older literature but have you ever picked up a book like Jane Austin's or um Mary Shelley or even like the Bronte sisters? These are women that are born that were from the early 1800s.

[01:04:38]Have you ever picked up their books?

[01:04:40]>> Yeah.

[01:04:41]>> Okay. You what is their baseline uh vocabulary that they use in those books?

[01:04:46]Would you how >> Yeah. Pretty high compar compared to a modern Yeah.

[01:04:51]>> Now remember that modern women are told that women like them are not allowed to have an education whatsoever. And no, they didn't have any formalized schooling, but that didn't mean that they weren't educated in their own way.

[01:05:04]>> But they did.

[01:05:05]>> Yes, it was a different form. I know they did have their own education, but this is the baseline that they were capable of having and it's far advanced than any other posted person here um than the average American.

[01:05:19]>> So I agree with that. I think and somebody uh smoking space man was trying to correct me in my chat that uh even writing and creating novels and such is technology. My point wasn't technology in general. My point was the advent of modern technology has reduced people's need to communicate effectively with one another because more and more tasks are being co-opted by something that isn't people, right? You you're no longer having to communicate needs in a meaningful way because there's so many other tools to take that and do it for you. Also, we don't have the same imagination we once had. You could read through a novel and you would imagine the entirety of the world while reading that that novel. Now what happens is people watch movies and TV shows. Novels are too boring. They're not willing to go read that because they have to actually imagine it rather than just see colors on the screen.

[01:06:19]>> Yeah, I think I think that I think that's true. I mean I mean even with myself I definitely read way less than I used to and probably a lot of that is techn is technology where it's just like >> Absolutely it is. When it comes to that, it's one of those things where here here's what's actually happening is that because of the fact that we have so many different varieties of technology around us, we do not give ourselves a moment to be bored. We are overstimulated as in our children are overstimulated as well.

[01:06:48]Being able to be bored encourages us to explore our own environments as in to explore our own um imaginations as well.

[01:06:57]So now that we are living in a day and age that is always consume um that is deliberately designed for us to consume 24/7 from the moment that we are born to the moment that we like go to sleep wake up we're always consuming something. We never allow our minds to ever be bored about anything. Therefore we're not able to explore creativity in general.

[01:07:18]>> I don't know. I found I don't know about you. I was able to meditate and find Nirvana. So >> I'm glad >> you found it. Where is it? It's where you don't have to have look at media all the time. You can clear your mind and be one with yourself.

[01:07:36]Home home on the what?

[01:07:41]>> Bradley has a PhD in literature, so he's a good person to ask about this.

[01:07:45]>> Pretty good dick in books.

[01:07:48]>> Did Did you Did you um >> did you learn to fly?

[01:07:54]Yeah, I flew right into your booth.

[01:07:58]>> Did you?

[01:07:58]>> Yeah.

[01:08:00]>> I thought I I thought I saw like this really weird looking ghoul thing floating around in there before I heard a pop, but you know, >> was he wearing a bucket hat?

[01:08:11]>> Yes.

[01:08:14]>> Balcony, not a boo. You were shot by someone named Booth. You were in a balcony, not a booth.

[01:08:18]>> I think he was shot by someone named Buthan, actually.

[01:08:22]booth in a balcony.

[01:08:26]>> But yeah, um >> John Wils balcony.

[01:08:29]>> I think you're actually right though, Glacier. I think there's this this mass distraction at all times.

[01:08:35]>> Spelling Chatter King.

[01:08:37]>> That's the other piece for me is everything is constant distraction. And not just constant distraction, but a seeking to be distracted.

[01:08:45]>> Yeah, I wish.

[01:08:46]>> It goes It does go both ways. you um in this day and age, you have to deliberately pull yourself back from anything that does distract you and then take a moment to calm yourself down. But a lot of people don't seem to realize that um just how much um technology affects your stimuli, but you I think it's it it becomes more apparent if you pay attention to how children behave when you give them a phone and then take the phone away. when you let them watch TV for a couple of hours and then you tell them, "Okay, time to stop watching TV and do something else." Um the for a child, it's they're already very emotional. It's so it ends up being a very extreme and very concentrated reaction because they're not used to the concept of being engaged in stimuli and then being removed from that stimuli.

[01:09:40]>> I pull myself back. I pull myself back when I'm getting [ __ ] in the ass.

[01:09:45]Do you >> see Bradley Bradley is an iPad baby and I don't mean he was one. I mean he is an iPad baby in the current moment.

[01:09:53]>> I can believe that.

[01:09:57]>> Well that that's why I mean that that's why it starts with the parents to actually mitigate that or just start with yourself because you can only control yourself. Personally that's why I don't really like the education system as it is and will refuse to participate in it. Period. What if you can't control yourself?

[01:10:17]>> But I don't Okay, wait. I don't Maybe I'll be the one that actually I think me and Abe disagreed on this before if I recall and I think I got way too hostile if I also recall, but I'm less drunk now that I I don't think the education system itself like in higher education is bad. I think there is value in it.

[01:10:35]And I know Yeah, I see what the face you're making, Abe. And I I probably know what Smoking Space Man is typing right now in your chat. I understand.

[01:10:42]and also Doomang if you can hear me your mother and me miss you please come home okay but beyond that I think it's useful >> hold on >> I would say that the existence if utilized correctly is just fine >> utilized >> it's the fact that we have trended the way that we have and allowed the standards and the the what would I call it the mission of higher education has been lost. I think what happened is we opened to an everinccreasing number of majors with zero usefulness to them. And there are definitely degrees out there that are important, right? You need brain surgeons. You need highly educated people to do these very specific specialized jobs. However, we don't need uh 500,000 women getting women's studies degrees because there's so many jobs for them out there. We don't need all these random ass degrees.

[01:11:44]>> I am Yeah. To be clear, I'm not I am talking about the useless degrees. And I would say there is value in the useless degrees. Now, there's also ne There's also negative value to >> confluence. How can there be value when you said that they're useless?

[01:11:58]>> Well, well, because I'm using useless as kind of a bit of a uh you know, >> then maybe because you're saying you're using a porative. That's the word I'm looking for. I'm using as a pjorative.

[01:12:10]Obviously, I don't I mean useless in like a in a in a financial sense, in like a getting a job sense. I agree.

[01:12:17]There's some useless degrees out there.

[01:12:20]>> There's there's another there's another problem. All it does is puts people in debt when they can't find a job.

[01:12:26]>> That's that's a that's that is a negative. I agree it's a negative, but I would posit that there are positives.

[01:12:32]Oh, what I did there?

[01:12:35]What positive can there be if you're starting your life off with a deficit?

[01:12:39]>> Yeah.

[01:12:40]>> Well, that's that's a you're just you're saying how can there be a positive if I can name a negative? You named the negative. I agree. That's a negative.

[01:12:46]But there's also positive.

[01:12:47]>> That's a massive me that's a massive negative. It >> it is. But it depends what school you go to. If you got to blow this out of proportion fancy school you are. If you if you go to a [ __ ] state school, it's not that expensive. If you if you stay at home and you stay in your hometown, which I know is not vogue amongst, you know, the American populace, but if you do and you go to like a state college, you're you're it's not that expensive. Okay? If you're going to like some like fancy university, you're going to spend a lot of money, of course, but that's not the only option to get like some liberal arts degree, right? You could just stay in your hometown.

[01:13:22]>> Then let me let me ask you something, Confluence. So basically, I'm paying money to learn a skill, but what stops me from learning this skill outside of school? Why do I need to go into a school and put myself into debt for a skill that I cannot apply to I have another, you know, you can learn a skill, you can learn a lot of skills without going to college are called Bosei skills. And you you're the school is obligated to pay for you to learn these things up to a certain age.

[01:13:55]>> You can go to multiple Boseies courses, which I did. I've taken animal care and gotten a job. I've taken uh radio and television production and gotten a job.

[01:14:05]So, and those weren't college courses, but they hold a lot of >> what I what I I want to jump in >> to what an age no confluence just said.

[01:14:19]>> You can literally be an autodid act in in our modern era. There is enough information to go and seek out and learn a trade, right?

[01:14:28]>> I want to respond to that. I'm not saying high skilled work. I know specifically all these side things.

[01:14:34]>> There's no boats.

[01:14:36]>> So I want I want to separate one thing because like if we're talking if we're talking the goal of education is only to get you to make money or to do like a trade or a profession. If that is which it didn't used to be. It didn't. So I don't want I don't want to see your head nodding like that. Abe that's not what that's not what it used to be. Right.

[01:14:53]>> Skills. That's my issue with the with the degrees I'm talking about. The people coming out aren't smarter for it.

[01:14:59]They're not a benefit to their own life or others lives in a greater manner.

[01:15:03]Okay? They're not better, deeper thinkers.

[01:15:05]>> I'm just I'm just I'm just trying to lay the groundwork. I'm just trying to lay ground right now. We're not just talking about about something that leads to to some better financial opportunity or some job goal, right? Like so I just want So I agree why there's stuff to do.

[01:15:21]>> First of all, again, we over we kind of overblow it because you don't like Steelman saying he paid 100K for a BA.

[01:15:27]You don't have to. If you go to a local state college, you don't have to pay 100k for a BA. You [ __ ] don't have to. Wait, wait, wait.

[01:15:33]>> Hold on. Hold on.

[01:15:35]>> The majority of American people are in debt because they go into college.

[01:15:41]>> People are just going into college.

[01:15:43]>> Those people would think there's any way ever heard of financial aid.

[01:15:48]>> No, she's right though. There's literally a whole class of people within the United States at this point that are that are uh forever students. They're just going to keep going to college so long as they keeping their college because she said most most people are in debt because of that's not true. That's not true. The majority of people are not in debt because of student loans. That's an absurd claim. That's just empirically not true.

[01:16:11]>> Let me ask you this then, Confluence.

[01:16:13]What what percentage of college students do you think >> what what level of college student or what what number percentage-wise of college students that don't get trades specific or or career specific degrees come out intellectually better or knowing and understanding more than they did when they went in.

[01:16:37]I I think I I would say I would say the majority of them. The problem is it comes with like what? Zero.

[01:16:43]>> Yeah. I >> No. Zero. Okay. You guys are all so black build. You don't think anyone >> Hold on. No compliment consequence. Just hear me out.

[01:16:50]>> Go there and party all [ __ ] >> How educated do you think I am?

[01:16:55]>> I have no idea. I I would say you haven't done any like formal education at a university level. But I think you're very smart. You would be right about that. I've I've seen this on the internet. Let me judge it on this. Let me ask you one simple question. If you can answer this, that's fine. What is uh 25% What is 25% of a of an hour?

[01:17:16]>> Yeah.

[01:17:17]>> You mean 15 >> 15 minutes?

[01:17:19]>> Good. All right.

[01:17:25]>> Question.

[01:17:26]>> That's my big question. But my my point Confluence is that I can hold better conversations like more interesting conversations with all the with a lot of co like um college educated people.

[01:17:38]Right now people um a lot of college educated people are walking out mindlessly paring talking points about um communism without actually knowing the ramifications or history about it because they're not being taught the actual history of communism. They're being told they're being taught dialectics of communism instead of actually the reality.

[01:17:59]>> And there's even worse that's that that's also entailed in what she's saying because what happens is when these parided paradigms and ideas are coming out of them. What's happened is they've disregarded chunks of reality, right? Like how the economic systems work in a in a capitalist society, things like that just disregarded. So there's a huge chunk that is left on the wayside in order to buy into this system. And and I'm not saying this like the whole thing is screwed. But what I am saying is there's a majority of people that I meet that because they have a degree regardless of what the degree is in they have some kind of I'm intellectually superior than normal people. I'm more superior to them. But then they lacked all these skills because they disregarded a bunch of stuff in lie of some esoteric education.

[01:18:54]>> I mean I agree with that like I I agree with I guess with two things. I think that that yeah you can get a grandiose sense of self and think that you are better than than the people that don't have these degrees and stuff and that can lead down bad paths. And also I think there's a bunch of like bad stuff that you learn in education that's just going to like [ __ ] your mind. But I also I that to me that still doesn't take away from the fact that there is good stuff. And I guess maybe you could argue that that most people are just not going to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff and you're just going to take the bad and take any of the good or take the good but take most of the bad or just fall into one of those like two categories like that. I can see that.

[01:19:33]>> But my thing is >> zombies I see you got give me one of these.

[01:19:37]>> Something that pisses me off >> in the back chat. You got to give me one of these to join.

[01:19:40]>> Is that there are some people that go and didn't learn a certain trade, just went out there and they might have [ __ ] partied and be you already did it.

[01:19:52]>> Oh, that's a great hat. But they feel that they are entitled to a great job because there are so much in debt and they went, "Oh, I went to college and did this and that." No, you need to learn a certain trade. If you didn't learn this trade, you're not in [ __ ] entitled to get a [ __ ] job just because you have you you lost so much [ __ ] money and you're in debt. [ __ ] that. That's what pisses me off. That's off my if it's a trade or not. Like trades are just a different like animal completely, I think.

[01:20:18]>> Yeah. Yeah, I have a job that requires a trade and I have some [ __ ] that comes in that went to college and is in debt and did not learn a goddamn thing that has to do with my [ __ ] work and yet she is Oh, she thinks she's entitled to be above me and Oh. Oh, they gave it to her. Oh. Oh.

[01:20:39]>> Do you think Bradley Wait, can I at the risk of triggering you, can I say something that might be triggering? Do you like if like let's say let's say you're hiring just say I don't know something not specific to a trade but let's say you're hiring like an office manager and you have a choice between someone and and maybe you're all going to like say the opposite cuz I understand you're all like anti- academia and so am I but maybe not to the same amount if you had someone who has like a a a bachelor or a master or PhD but it's in like English or something something that doesn't really help anything and they're going to be an office manager so their other the candidates are pretty much equal Would you not think, well, this at least shows that there this shows something. This shows that they would write essays on time. This shows that they would go to class. This shows some level of of stick to it withness. Is that a word?

[01:21:28]>> No, you wouldn't you wouldn't hire that person over the guy who doesn't have it.

[01:21:32]>> Because I don't have any system.

[01:21:34]>> You would do the he just fundamentally disagree. Just hear me out.

[01:21:39]>> I could go to this person and ask how would I word this better? they would have better abilities that other people wouldn't. So yes, I would want to hire him more.

[01:21:49]>> Why wouldn't he has better abilities?

[01:21:54]>> My my thing about this confluence is the fact that people that go into college, they are not learning any practical skills. They're learning theories but not anything that is practical. Right now, hold on. I'm not finished. I'm not finished in the field. country so often.

[01:22:12]>> No, no. In the past, it was still an elitist like it was still a a group of elitists, but they were still being taught the humanities and the humanities department is being pulled out as in they were being classically educated as a part of college as well.

[01:22:28]>> But what was the usefulness? If you took a theology degree or philosophy degree back in the day, what was the usefulness? You could make the same argument then as you can now. What is your likely job prospects to get? Let's let's Wait, hold on. Wait a second. You have to take basics when you're going into into your college education, right?

[01:22:47]You still have a a layer of basic education within your degree, right?

[01:22:52]Confidence, you have to do that. I mean, let's >> you had to get credits in different chunks, right? Okay. What I'm what the reason I don't have faith in the system is when I do talk to college grads, they often don't even have the base knowledge that they gained from the basics beneath the grander degree that they got.

[01:23:10]There's zero understanding within those topics, which tells me you actually didn't learn the things in college that you are claiming are all held within this degree you have. How can I trust Mel? Yeah, I can see >> how can I trust the greater portion of your degree also was learned if you didn't retain any of the basic.

[01:23:32]>> Okay. My answer the thing is I'm gay.

[01:23:36]>> Stupid people are going to be stupid even if you slap them with a college degree. Right. That's the ugly truth of the matter. If >> you shouldn't slap them with stupid letting stupid people into college.

[01:23:48]Well, it's a kind of a it's kind of a pay to- win kind of grip, you know.

[01:23:52]>> But but that's that's that's the problem.

[01:23:54]>> College is supposed to be a center for the the most elitist of minds.

[01:24:00]>> We're just letting anybody go in and people are not getting out of anything out of if they have the money to go to college.

[01:24:09]I'm trying to be money shouldn't allow them to graduate. Your ability, your mind should allow you to graduate. They shouldn't be allowed to graduate and given anything if they're stupid. If you're stupid and YOU WANT TO PAY FOR COLLEGE, you can go to college. But if you learn nothing because you're an idiot, then you fail college. You don't get >> obviously they're learning the things that they're >> expected to learn.

[01:24:31]>> People who fail college. Okay. I don't think a large amount of people drop out of college. Yeah.

[01:24:38]>> Yeah.

[01:24:39]>> So it's not like it's not like everyone who goes to college survives it. But the point is that we have a lot of skilled labor nowadays. It takes a lot more than just on the job training, right?

[01:24:50]>> Yeah. Well, you should wait. Trades but trades cover that. You you you want to skill. Yes, they do.

[01:24:58]>> No, they don't.

[01:24:59]>> Yes, they do.

[01:25:00]>> Wait, Alexander, is it your contention that you couldn't be some kind of uh apprentice and learn a lot of the jobs that would take college?

[01:25:11]that you couldn't have apprenticeships that teach the person true >> one-on-one. Really, >> I would say probably true. Yeah.

[01:25:18]>> Okay. I think that apprenticeships probably instill better skills, better knowledge base, better across the board than the college degree sitting in classrooms drilling information that may or may not be used. And the person who's in the college classrooms doesn't know which portion is going to be used or not used. So, they don't know what to keep or disregard while they're there.

[01:25:46]Oh yeah, we have Bradley in real life.

[01:25:48]He says I'm just kidding. I will pull up the link though if I can uh load. You guys keep talking while I figure out how to do that.

[01:26:00]>> Streamyard hasn't figured that out yet.

[01:26:04]>> I mean like there's nothing cliche about what we're saying. This is what's actually happening right now. So hold on. So hold on if I can if I can finish quick.

[01:26:13]>> So the problem is that there's a lot of different ways to do a lot of these things. It's not like >> even even in the trades, there's different ways to accomplish certain things, right? But when you get to something like um something like accounting degrees, legal degrees, I degrees in information technology, these kinds of things, there's so many different tools and ways you can do things. And the different ways are needed >> for different >> Am I really a fascist?

[01:26:42]>> This is such [ __ ] This is this is such this is not cliche. This is not what we're talking about, Testy. This is not of course this obviously this is true that that other generations complain about other generations. This is not what we're talking about young adults. Yeah, >> but that's not that's not the issue.

[01:26:58]That's not the issue. I'll give you your five bucks worth. Get on panel, bro.

[01:27:03]I'll rip your freaking balls off.

[01:27:04]>> I mean like you're trying to insinuate that college is essential to get to get ahead in society. I'm saying that >> college is brainwashing.

[01:27:16]>> Yeah, it is. Okay, let me finish.

[01:27:19]>> People Okay, my point is that the majority of people who walk out of college do not even get a um get a job within their own degree programs. So, it begs the question, how useful is college? If you could just jump into a trade that trains you on the job, pays you on the job. You don't have to get into debt. And depending on what kind of trade that you go into, you can actually have a lot of success in um in that trade and live quite comfortably.

[01:27:46]negative.

[01:27:46]>> Yeah.

[01:27:47]>> I mean like tradiety.

[01:27:55]>> I don't disagree with you completely.

[01:27:57]But the problem is that without learning the foundation, the fundamentals of the actual um thing you're working with, right? That's what the trade school is for.

[01:28:07]>> You will know the trade schools.

[01:28:10]>> That's what the trade schools are.

[01:28:11]>> You guys You guys know that. You guys know that. And I feel like you guys are going to deny this. difference between school and the college.

[01:28:17]>> Do you guys know that that people with degrees like bachelor degrees make more money on average than people without bachelor degrees? Do we acknowledge that?

[01:28:24]>> Yeah, >> sure. On average, and that would be because there's a requirement for bachelor's degrees in certain fields, right?

[01:28:30]>> Okay. How about this? Is the guy that owns Amazon?

[01:28:33]>> That's still a good idea.

[01:28:34]>> That that kind of changes the the math, doesn't it? If it was whoever had it doesn't change the prescription if you're telling people not to go to college, but going to college makes it far more likely you're going to make a higher wage.

[01:28:48]>> I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell anyone to be fair. I didn't tell anyone not to go to college. To be fair, >> this is factify the debt that you're walking.

[01:28:58]>> There's a lot of jobs you cannot >> Does Mark Zuckerberg have a bachelor?

[01:29:03]There's there's there's a whole >> he doesn't he didn't he wasn't like a [ __ ] employee of someone. He's an owner.

[01:29:09]>> Well, there's also a secondary and tertiary level to this, too. Like, for instance, when I was managing restaurants like over a decade ago, I had multiple employees beneath me that were college grads, but they couldn't find work because of their degrees because they got a degree in what whatever it was.

[01:29:28]>> Yeah.

[01:29:28]>> And they just couldn't get a job in that field. And I've seen that like over from that time till today. I've seen it over and over and over again.

[01:29:38]>> There's also a selection bias. You have to you have to agree with that, right?

[01:29:41]Because the people people >> because the people you're seeing in these environments then are obviously like they're not they haven't made use of their college degree. They're not in some you wouldn't be seeing them if they're in like some some job that pays like 80k a year for their [ __ ] dirt [ __ ] bachelor of arts degree, right?

[01:29:58]Like you're you're seeing these people because they're struggling and they they have a degree and they can't find work and they're complaining about it cuz like I spent all this money in this degree I'm in student a student loan debt all this crap right that's a selection bias that's not that's not we can we have stats on this right and I understand what you're saying that we we hire people based on a degree but then that means that prescriptively it's good advice to tell people then to go get higher education because statistically they're upping their odds of getting a better job >> except for the fact that in a lot of those cases there's like a hundred jobs that that are going require that degree and you've got a thousand people going to college for it and at the end of that you've got 900 out of work and the 100 who got the jobs.

[01:30:35]>> No, but then I wouldn't be there balancing effects. There's no balancing effects for the degrees.

[01:30:41]>> Do you deny the stats? You >> I've already concurred.

[01:30:45]>> I apologize, but I'm going to skiad on out of here. Y'all have a good night.

[01:30:49]Peace out, >> Bradley. Peace, Brad. I guess I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean because if you're saying you're saying like oh 900 will not get the job and 100 will but in the stats if they make a more a higher salary on average >> then obviously it's it's working for some reason or another >> that is on the assumption that they pass college the next thing is trying to figure out a job that might be within their degree program and only 20% actually manage to um find a job within their degree program >> that's fine but most of them make more money than people without the degree is what I'm saying >> the majority of people fail out.

[01:31:21]>> Hold on. Hold on. I I I agree. That's true. Hold on.

[01:31:24]>> I agree. Why start to college?

[01:31:28]>> You're not wrong. We should not have as many people go to college. It should not be like the first step for everyone, right?

[01:31:33]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anyone who's going to drop out of college need it would be better if they hadn't gone than there were like 50 years ago.

[01:31:40]>> But the system does not um But the system does not discourage people from going to college. It encourages everyone to go into college without Well, there's also a massive there's like >> a huge >> profit industry like >> right but there's a prolific amount of information that that people learn in college that could easily be learned outside of college. Like >> I'm not saying they don't need any college. What I am saying is there's a ton of stuff that could be learned absent the college. And if you could just go in and say, "Hey, I'm pretty proficient in this thing. Is there any way I could take a test to prove it?"

[01:32:15]Boom. Okay, I have the credits because I have the knowledge. not I need to go take a whole bunch of classes because uh because I don't know it right like there's it's like a weird imbalance that exists like you have to go to the classes and do the classes to the end to get the credits for this thing but you might be able to just go test out of that thing and that's impossible in tons of things why is that the case >> if you have the knowledge if you could be an autodiet you can literally train yourself in something fully, why wouldn't you be able to go and prove that you have those skills and then go get the job?

[01:32:54]>> Yeah, I agree. I see like >> in [ __ ] Cali, you can pass the bar.

[01:32:59]You don't even need a a [ __ ] uh legal degree or anything, right? You can just pass the bar and become a lawyer. You don't need a law degree at all in California, which I mean, I know everyone hates California, but that's kind of what you're saying if you think about it. If you can pass if you can pass the bar, then that's like good. If it's good enough for suits, it's good enough for me. You know what I mean?

[01:33:17]I I think a massive imbalance in my opinion.

[01:33:20]>> It is a massive imbalance. I I think like the majority of the degree programs that we have in college, they could probably be outfitted to be specialized trades rather than be in college to where it's just siphoning off of the public.

[01:33:31]>> Yeah. So, this is absolutely a true thing, right? Like college was designed for certain people doing certain kinds of work to go there and learn or for people who are really rich to have fancy degrees to get doors open for them. Yes, it was a it was a um it was for elitism.

[01:33:49]A lot of it was for elitism, but there was actually a lot of um there was academic vigor when it came to um colleges that's been removed entirely in this day and age.

[01:33:59]>> No, I I I don't fully disagree with you on that at all.

[01:34:02]>> So, Smoking Space Man brought up a good point in my chat and I I tend to agree with this and it's something I was going to bring up earlier. the the stats you brought up about like uh people with with bachelors tend to earn a higher amount. That is true. My thing would be that in those cases, it's often the case that people that are high in ambition are going to drive to the end of their degree. And even if they couldn't get a job in the field that their degree is in, they still retain the ambition they originally had. More ambitious people are going to make more money in general.

[01:34:35]>> I completely agree. I completely agree.

[01:34:37]That's there's no it's a correlation and yeah it could be that there's a third factor in this case ambition or it could be yeah it could be a number of things and so I yeah I completely agree with that. So and that's yeah that's fair because then it could be terrible advice until people go to college because maybe it's just yeah the same kind of people if they applied themselves in a business or in a trade or in anything else they would succeed in that and maybe they exceeded succeed even more. So that's like that's totally fair. I don't Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

[01:35:02]All we have is a correlation.

[01:35:05]>> Like so like our our like what's the current issue right now is that we're being taught as a baseline as a society that you have to go into college to be successful and there is no principles of dissuading the public into finding a different profession that's outside of college and we do have a very parasitic system within our own college that is not about academic vicor but more so trying to push an ideology. Um, >> I mean, when I was graduating high school, I I was told straight up that if I don't go to college, I don't do anything. I'm done.

[01:35:38]>> Like, every kid I know was told the same [ __ ] Like, you don't get a college degree. You don't have anything. You just >> Did you get a college degree, Alex?

[01:35:46]>> Yeah, of course.

[01:35:46]>> Oh, hi, Paige.

[01:35:48]>> And do you have a really high paying job because of your college degree?

[01:35:50]>> Hello, Steel Man.

[01:35:52]>> Yes, I do.

[01:35:53]>> Oh, interesting.

[01:35:54]>> Funny how that works.

[01:35:56]>> Why the [ __ ] is Confluence always rage banning me? What the [ __ ] is wrong with you? It's if it's good enough for suits.

[01:36:02]>> I'm successful.

[01:36:03]>> Good enough for me. If it's good enough for >> somebody listen to that.

[01:36:08]>> Did that reach? Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[01:36:09]That pissed you off?

[01:36:10]>> TV show where literally goes through criminal trials and and almost gets, you know, put in put in jail, right?

[01:36:19]>> If it's good enough.

[01:36:21]>> He does. Yeah.

[01:36:22]>> Are you [ __ ] kidding me? Don't go there.

[01:36:27]Go.

[01:36:29]What the [ __ ] is wrong?

[01:36:30]>> I should have known this. I should have seen this coming like a mile away. Of course, you came up because there you nodded and you smiled and you just kind of glanced to this side right in Abe.

[01:36:42]>> Sure. Why not? Ag.

[01:36:45]>> That makes me so angry inside. I don't know how to >> I'm glad. I'm glad.

[01:36:51]>> Do you even know what my job entails? Do you know, woman? I I don't know what your job entails.

[01:36:59]>> It is a lot.

[01:36:59]>> That's right. You're like a not not a lawyer. That's right.

[01:37:04]>> I'm a lower court lawyer. Thank you very much.

[01:37:07]>> She stole 50 $50,000 is the amount I can >> wait. Are you actually a lawyer? You're like a a [ __ ] JD or whatever.

[01:37:17]>> The best way to describe me is I'm a lower court lawyer. So I represent >> Are you a parallegal? That's not a lawyer. Yeah. No, but where in my jurisdiction it is. So, I can represent clients in administrative tribunals and small claims court up to $50,000.

[01:37:31]>> Oh, okay.

[01:37:33]>> You had to get your degree for that, right?

[01:37:35]>> I did. I have a four-year degree. I have a bachelor's degree. And in fact, my company will only hire for my role if you have a degree.

[01:37:45]So, >> parallegal confluence.

[01:37:48]>> Parallegal.

[01:37:50]Wait, what is that? Why is that? Why is that the side of me? Why is that Why is that the side of me?

[01:37:55]>> Your Cali your Cali comment. She was raging about your Cali comment.

[01:37:59]>> Yeah, she had to have a four year degree to do that job. And >> I'm just I'm just saying you can ask the [ __ ] bar. Okay. I'm just saying that.

[01:38:10]>> So, >> but that's the thing with what you're you guys are saying in some ways. It's like even if you make the standards that yes, you could do you'd have to change each individual corporation or business, right? Because even California at a state level can make it. So, hey, you could just pass the bar and now you're a [ __ ] lawyer or whatever. But it still doesn't mean a company's going to hire you. They still might be like, "No, where's your [ __ ] degree?"

[01:38:30]>> We could say this. We We could say this.

[01:38:31]Why are the standards there?

[01:38:33]>> Why are the standards set the way that they are?

[01:38:35]>> Yeah.

[01:38:37]>> Like by companies?

[01:38:39]Why do we have why why do we have if I was a company because if I was a company to use to use the syncticy I guess if you will and you must of California and how the lawyer stuff works there. If I was a company I I too would be like I'm going to give preference to people who have law degrees. Even though I know some random ass person can go and pull a suit, okay, and just pass the bar. I still don't think I wouldn't prefer that over somebody who has actually gone through all the training. I think something might be missing.

[01:39:08]>> Hold on. Hold on. I so I work at >> pull suits. I'm telling you right now.

[01:39:11]>> And I I [ __ ] pass the Cali bar and then we'll talk Diane. Okay.

[01:39:16]>> I have experience with like with hiring people who go ahead.

[01:39:23]>> I have experience with hiring people who are like who are self-taught who are >> um autodiducts as uh Abe said. um they're really really good at the things they do, but when it comes to writing a report or speaking to the CEO or talking to any of the actual stuff they're doing, they just don't have any clue what the [ __ ] they're doing. It takes a long time for them to learn that process and even then they still don't get it.

[01:39:51]And then when they're missing some fundamental piece of knowledge, they don't even know that they're missing it.

[01:39:57]So they don't see the same things that everyone else would see from the start.

[01:40:01]Like there are there are really good reasons for college degrees. But >> social skills issue >> aren't learned in college.

[01:40:09]>> But it's it's more like there is some business communication is learned in college.

[01:40:14]>> There is an experiential aspect learned outside of college. Like couldn't somebody >> hard it's hard to get like a well first of all it's hard to be a well-rounded autoct right? Like it's really >> The good thing about college is that it like it makes you like when I did my [ __ ] stupid ass degree, it at least made me take stuff I wouldn't normally take. If I was just studying on my own, I'd probably just pick stuff I'm like really interested in. I wouldn't probably go out of my way to take stuff.

[01:40:39]There's some there's some helpfulness in being forced to take stuff that you would otherwise just ignore cuz either it's not in your wheelhouse, you're not interested in it. In college, it's like you require those credits. I So I wasn't really interested in like statistics. I I don't really like that. I don't like going into the weeds on that, but I had to take a whole [ __ ] ass six credit hour year-long course on it, right? And I I probably wouldn't have really done that. I might have halfassed it, but I had to do it. I had to pass the exams. I had to to do all the [ __ ] little [ __ ] >> It's a good thing you use it so often.

[01:41:07]It's a good thing you picked up the skill and you use it so often, right?

[01:41:10]>> Well, you do. Well, you do need to use it.

[01:41:12]>> I I think it has helped. I know I know you're saying that like kind of sarcastically obviously but I think it has helped like and not and not not in a job sense obviously you know because you know my job is is streaming and writing but but in like I do think that all those things have helped I had to take a grammar class I had to take a a formal logic class I think those things have benefited my day-to-day life and how I think and stuff >> I truly do think that >> to be directly benefited like I got a degree in my field my second year of my degree And I've actually find your gaps pretty easily, >> but >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:41:48]>> Yeah. But are you going to have the pacity to stick to those gaps? Most people won't, >> right? Like if you are the perfect autodi act and you can discipline yourself well you now without you having to go to college.

[01:41:59]>> Yes. But you have to be it's like the same thing like you guys obviously know Jordan Peterson, right? He has like his Peterson Academy and stuff. And I love Jordan Pearson. I'm a big Jordan Pearson fan. I saw him live. Okay. It was a sublime experience, you know, and it was one of his last tours that he did >> experience.

[01:42:15]>> It It was truly I I [ __ ] loved it. I was soing out. It was It was incredible.

[01:42:20]But is Peterson Academy, I don't think it works. And the reason it doesn't work is because there's no one making you do these essays and these exams and all this stuff. It's all kind of self-guided. And the thing is, you can trick yourself. It's very easy for most people, myself included, to trick myself into just watching some lectures and thinking I know stuff. But with college, you don't have that option. You have to go to the exam, you have to write the essays, you have to do the assignments, you have to do the group projects, you have to do the labs, you have to do whatever. So there's and most if you can be a perfect human and be a perfect auto data and be perfectly dedicated and yeah, as Alex is saying, use AI to find your gaps and fill in those gaps and do all that stuff, then yes, you can make use of something like the Peterson Academy or just the information online in general and get the same thing as you would in college to like besides maybe the experience part of it, but like most people are not going to be able to do that. The vast majority of people are not like perfect autodidex, I would Hold on. The vast majority shouldn't go to college either.

[01:43:10]>> You're not talking about I would say you have to be like a 1% person to do like the full auto died thing in a correct way.

[01:43:19]>> Con so here's the problem, right? The biggest problem back then was that we didn't know what we didn't know. We had no clue what college even looked like before we stepped into it. Now you can see all that pretty damn easily, right?

[01:43:35]you can get a big part of the college experience from your house.

[01:43:41]So, it's not like it's not things have changed pretty drastically since you went to college and I went to college, right?

[01:43:50]>> But even now, if I if I was to pick up a new if I don't know if I was to pick up a new thing, if I if I wanted to let's say do a degree in philosophy all of a sudden, I think my best path would be and I I I like learning. I like being self-taught and stuff, but I think that if I took but if I if I didn't care, let's say I didn't care about the degree and I just had two paths. One is me on my own studying philosophy and one is actually going through college, taking the classes, being forced to write things, having somebody grade those things and giving me feedback that maybe I don't like sometimes. I think that option where I go to the school would give me a better grasp of philosophy in this example than me just studying philosophy on my own. If you're the perfect human, I agree there's enough information out there that theoretically you could do it. I just don't think the vast majority of people, myself included, are the kind of people that could possibly do that effectively.

[01:44:38]>> Perfect.

[01:44:39]>> But my my my my point is that right now colleges colleg's academic vicor has dropped significantly low to the point where K um where a lot of college students are protesting over the idea of having to read multiple books or just even one book. On top of that, on top of that, >> you guys are all in conservative but the majority of academia is completely and 100% liberal as in they grade who might be conservative and not everything is gender studies glacier. Not every not everything is gender.

[01:45:21]>> Yeah, it's also lesbian dance theory like like if you did a philosophy degree. No, she's talking she's talking about she's talking about the liberal bench within college education. And if you spout any kind of conservative talking points within a class, you may actually detrimentally be ited out because of it.

[01:45:40]>> I went to a liberal freaking college.

[01:45:41]Yeah, it was hell. There was so much nonsense. It was horrible.

[01:45:45]>> Okay, so part of what I'm saying is that >> but then we go too far and we say that, oh, the whole thing is going to be like crap and if you did a philosophy, it's all be woke nonsense. It's all going to be like women's studies. it's all going to be critical race theory and it's like it's really not like that. It's not like that.

[01:45:58]>> Confluence. Confluence. I'm not I'm like I'm not trying to just say that. But here's the thing. Like one huge aspect of college um is that you are supposed to try you're supposed to be engaging with critical thinking. You're supposed to be engaging with debate. That has been completely obsolete and that's been proven by many of the conservatives that have come onto >> that's not true. Then why is it that many of these college kids cannot articulate themselves whenever they talk because their degrees like Charlie Kirk when it was people like um like Ben um like Charlie Kirk did not even Kirk have a degree but they could not stand they could he's talking to like first year [ __ ] freshman I mean yeah I understand I would hope they would be better too but they are like confluence went to they couldn't even hold a candle to him.

[01:46:51]>> Yeah, I know. But >> Cambridge and all kinds of stuff too to be fair. Like >> look I'm not saying I'm not I'm defin like picked like low. I'm just saying the type of people often times were just like very they're like 18y olds. They've been in like you know one or two semesters and yes college is paid to win in that way. You will get in with whatever. There is academic vigor. It just depends on what field you're taking. It depends on who your props.

[01:47:16]like you're saying there's no critical thinking, but like I was in a I was in a very liberal thing about about it was like the philosophy of religion and like it was talking about like when is it okay to like murder people for your religion and anyone could have any perspective at all and there was a bunch of like critical thinking about like when is it okay to kind of the conversation we have on the panel like is it ever justified what the Catholic Church did what jihad is what like there was and there was no perspective I mean that was at least in that class it's heavier it's heavily professor dependent I agree but in that one it was like you could kind of just go with whatever you felt like and that's and then I agree there was other classes too like I took a family dynamics class and holy [ __ ] I mean it was the most woke stuff ever it was horrible it just depends it just depends what I say Keelin how's it going >> hey so like the point of undergraduate isn't to really learn things to learn how to learn it it has nothing to do with like learning real facts in undergrad because you don't really learn that much in undergrad >> I think that's a I think that's a terrible will take.

[01:48:16]>> Then why don't your basics completely encompass parts that will help your job field specifically or your degree specifically? Because you could you could elaborate out into fields that are tangential to what you're seeking and get a better education rather than getting a bunch of basics that have no tangential connections to the end result of your degree. And then technically the humanities is supposed to be learning how to be a thinker, learning how to explore thought, but the humanities that are currently um humanities is being shut down all across many colleges right now. So so much for that concept, it's dying out in colleges.

[01:48:58]>> What co what college doesn't have humanities?

[01:49:01]>> They're closing it down. I'm seeing >> Can you name a single Can you name a single I will find you my I will find some weird rinky things. will find you a college professor that is literally panicking and informing people that the humanities have been shutting down in multiple >> That's not what you said. I'm asking you to find me a college that's not some like something no one's ever heard of.

[01:49:24]>> I'm sending you to somebody who knows better because he is a college professor.

[01:49:29]>> That sounds like a dodge cuz you you said there's so many you just have to name one school and you'd prove me wrong. One school has just completely cut out the humanities. I I'll let me look it up then.

[01:49:40]>> And not again not college to be clear.

[01:49:43]Okay.

[01:49:44]>> Why Why do you think what I said is crazy? Because like undergraduate isn't that difficult of material. It's not like things you couldn't learn on your own.

[01:49:52]>> Well, I I'm not saying it's too but if you take like an I guess and maybe if you're being more specific, but like you're you're in like math and stuff, right? Are you're learning math. Like when I took calculus, I was learning calculus. you know, like I I understand your perspective, but it's not about learning the calculus or learning the math. It's about learning how to learn the math and calculus because like a professor trying to teach you math is is kind of a [ __ ] gig. You have to learn most of that on your own.

[01:50:18]>> But if that was true, then why why isn't there more emphasis on things like how to learn, like the critical thinking side? Like >> So you brought up math and like that's the entirety of a math degree is learning how to >> learn math. Aren't you supposed to learn from elementary school and high? If you haven't learned that by high school, how the [ __ ] are you even getting to college?

[01:50:41]>> Look, they ain't teaching that high school. I don't know high school hearing me. They're not teaching you basic. They don't even even teaching you how to read. If that was true, Keelin, then they should be teaching you formal logic, philosophy, a bunch of other things that will help enumerate the things that you do learn in further education, not that's part of that's too abstract. That's part of that's not First of all, I don't First of all, that's not at least that wasn't true. I was a I was I was majoring in math before I switched. You did not have to learn any philosophy or critical thinking.

[01:51:15]>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Who on the panel has a math degree?

[01:51:18]you. That could be true at your That could be true at your school. That could be true at your school, Keelin. I'm still shocked. I mean, maybe if you can I obviously I don't want you to say your school, but in DMs, I would I'd be curious to see if it's actually like required to take like formal logic and critical thinking classes like >> the idiotic the idiotic thing to say is like you need to know this stuff to learn math and then assume that math professors don't teach this stuff. Like that's just stupid to think.

[01:51:43]>> Okay, so it's not a required course then. So you're already backpedaling on what you just [ __ ] said. not required course. You're just saying it's in math that they just alongside.

[01:51:52]>> So your your premise is these things aren't being taught. But I like how do you how do you even >> You just said you have to take classes on this.

[01:51:58]>> I'm not talking to you. I'm not I'm not talking to you. How like >> I'm talking to you Keyn said that it's not the the undergrad stuff is not to actually learn something. It's to teach you how to learn. I said then at that point why wouldn't they just teach you things like formal logic and philosophy which will enumerate the further education of the person right it will teach them how to think more effectively how to be more critical in their thinking how to learn more effectively that's not what humanities are or are not humanities but your undergrad is filled with filled with filler generally >> like different things that aren't necessarily super important now there may be base parts that are important to your overall degree But there's a whole bunch of stuff that isn't necessary and probably isn't going to come up in the end result of your degree. And and so why not fill it with things that actually make you better at learning then?

[01:52:55]>> I mean, a math degree, in my experience, is full of those things that make you better at learning math.

[01:53:02]>> Math. What about every other degree?

[01:53:05]>> Math makes you better at learning everything else. Math. Math literally makes you better at learning everything else.

[01:53:10]>> You sound like Kirk right now. of logic.

[01:53:13]Math is a tangent of logic. How come kids are not learning about logic?

[01:53:19]>> What that? So, so you're saying math is a tangent of logic. You're not saying that math is a tangent. Hold on. How come we're not learning about logic?

[01:53:27]>> What do you know about math?

[01:53:30]>> It's just like the basics.

[01:53:32]>> So, you don't know anything about math?

[01:53:34]No, I'm I'm telling you that mathematics is a connected to logic as in logic was the baseline to creating mathematics and nobody's learning about logic. We're learning about mathematics.

[01:53:46]>> So you think that by learning you think that by learning about math they're not learning about logic.

[01:53:51]>> Yes.

[01:53:52]>> That's the dumbest [ __ ] thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

[01:53:56]>> What's the three laws of logic? I'm going to pop quiz you. What's the three laws of logic? If it's too much, that's not learning about logic. That's that's like YOU DON'T KNOW.

[01:54:05]>> SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT that's not learning about logic about logic.

[01:54:10]>> If you don't know the three is this, you're like if you don't know if you don't know this pop quiz, you don't know about logic. Like that's not what that's a that's a pretty baseline pop quiz for if we're talking about formal logic.

[01:54:22]Surely surely if we're talking about formal logic, that's pretty baseline, right? So, so we're talking about memorizing [ __ ] and not actually knowing how to use logic or what are we talking about?

[01:54:33]>> These rules. No, these rules govern reality like the the baseline laws of logic govern how reality functions and even mathematics must also live within those parameters. That is Confluence's point.

[01:54:50]You're saying that >> you guys you guys are talking about logic in like some in a different sense like you just yeah math is logical but that's not like studying logic right like we can't conflate those two things those are like there's se semantic overload going on with that cuz I agree to know you don't need to know the laws of you don't need to be able to name the laws of logic to be a logical or rational person. No, but like learning about Okay. learning about logic is significantly more helpful to be rational and logical. It can be implemented throughout society. Yet, it's not taught as baseline education for children.

[01:55:30]>> I don't think it's that important to know that the >> You don't think it's that important to learn how to be rational and logical?

[01:55:39]>> Here's the issue. Here's the issue.

[01:55:41]Understanding logic can help you think critically through almost everything in your life. Right?

[01:55:51]So if you understand these things, you can then examine things in a philosophical manner and say, is that true or false? Is this possible or not?

[01:55:59]Is that thing actually what I think it is? All these things fall within that.

[01:56:04]So yeah, it's kind of like the baseline of critical thinking and human understanding.

[01:56:11]Everything connected just in chat is like a fun like a part of different parts of math. Like law of excluded metal just sounds like a part of set theory >> because it's a part of logic which was where >> my [ __ ] point is that you don't need to know the names of these things to be able to understand them. You just kind of vi you just kind of vibe out logic.

[01:56:31]Is that what you're saying?

[01:56:32]>> It is a useful tool if people knew about it.

[01:56:36]>> Sorry confluence. think mathematics is vibing out logic like >> what >> I mean it sounds like you're kind of saying I don't need to know form of logic I just kind of like I kind of get him on vibes the law the law of exclude middle yeah I think I think I just get that just based on reading the text I think I already gro that that's kind of what you're doing right now if you think about it >> such it's such a weird detachment cuz like it's the under layer like mathematics existence and functionality exists as a upper layer above logic like logic's beneath that >> like like so here's the thing when it comes to like philosophy how it was taught in the past is that before you can even touch to the ethics you had to have an understanding of the metaphysics and then when you reach the had an understanding of the metaphysics you get um you studied the epistemology the ethics was the very last thing that you are ever taught whenever studying philosophy but when you go into colleges they only focus on ethics, but never touch epistemology or metaphysics.

[01:57:44]>> Well, I mean, yeah, but in the end, none of that matters for the mathematics that he's talking about.

[01:57:50]>> I'm saying that for for logic in general, logic would be almost like epistemology. While math is considered to be an ethics of logic.

[01:57:58]>> Okay. So, so math is an extension of logic, but confluence, I guarantee that you could not do the proofs that I am capable of doing because you can't do the logic necessary for them.

[01:58:10]>> I don't think we ever made that.

[01:58:12]>> Okay. Well, you had you had me in the first half. I couldn't do the proofs.

[01:58:15]It's not because of that. Like again, I've done one and two. The the limits is not the logic. The limits is is the maths part of it. That's what that's what would [ __ ] me up with like higher level proofs. It's just a if you don't understand the math, you could have all you could be Brandon, you can know all logic in the world. If they give you like some proof that's really hard, you're not going to be able to do it.

[01:58:35]Like there is a there's a large degree of math you have to know. And yeah, you have to you have to have a logical brain. I'm not I'm not taking that away from you, Keyn.

[01:58:42]>> But it would be so much easier to learn the logic from the point of view of math than it would be to learn the logic without math. No, the my my issue with what you're saying here, Keelin, is that to when you learn logic, like formal logic, you you you are learning the critical thinking beneath all these other things. It teaches you how to engage in meaningful thought that is true false value across the board. And then when you have that and then you stack all other things over it, it amplifies your ability to function within them and understand them in a meaningful way.

[01:59:21]>> Abe, I genuinely don't think we like truly disagree on this because like I took a discrete math class in college that was basically computer logic. Like knowing math without the logic or you you get to learn the logic through the math. You might not know the names of specific theories within logic, but you get to know or understand the logic through the math.

[01:59:46]>> But wouldn't it be more useful to actually know about the concepts that >> start at the base of the pyramid? Yeah.

[01:59:52]>> Yeah. Wouldn't it be I feel like this conversation this conversation must have started with something about jobs like >> go get a philosophy degree. Tell me what [ __ ] job you get versus a math degree.

[02:00:07]>> That's not even what I'm saying. I'm not advocating for college.

[02:00:12]>> I'm saying you made a claim at the beginning of this that all your undergrad is filler. That's just teaching you how to learn. I said if that is the case, then we should fill that with things that teach you how to be more effective at critical thinking and learning. Things like philosophy, things like logic, already. We already do this. People might have bad programs that they're in, but this is already being done.

[02:00:40]>> And my point was you ever talk to a math major. My point was against you. Why do you think that is?

[02:00:46]>> My point was against you influence because you're asking me why don't you stop start at the bottom of the [ __ ] pyramid. Like I'm not going to spend six years in [ __ ] college going $60,000 in debt for this [ __ ] >> Not what I asked you. That's crazy that that's what you think I suggested. I'm saying I'm saying what Glacier was saying. And I think Abe is that why not just have classes if what Abe said is true, right? If this is meant to teach us how to think, why not have actual designated critical thinking classes, formal logic classes? I'm not saying do six years of this. I'm just saying why not have these baseline things and then build upon it. There's so many [ __ ] all these [ __ ] degrees anyway.

[02:01:22]>> They're not required though. They exist as courses. They're not required. So I took a formal logic class. I took a critical thinking class, but I didn't have to. I just poked them to fill elective slots.

[02:01:32]>> Yeah. I don't agree without that.

[02:01:34]>> So, so the argument the argument shouldn't be get rid of college. It should be redo the elective class process because not everyone.

[02:01:43]>> I don't think we should get rid of college. Obviously, I don't think that >> I'm not saying get rid of college. I'm saying that college does not have does not produce the results to substantiate its value.

[02:01:55]>> Prove you can't prove that. You can't prove that >> 20% of the people who graduate from college are um find jobs within their degree program. That means 80% of the people are outside of their degree degree programs if they even have a job.

[02:02:09]Majority but the majority of people who are ending up in debt.

[02:02:17]>> That doesn't prove your point whatsoever. Oh, >> we already talked about how and I understand that what Smoky Space Man said that Amber, but most people even with liberal arts degrees make more money than people with no college degrees. That's just that's just boots on the ground just if you that is if you pass college. That's the important part.

[02:02:35]>> Yes. Yes. If you do. Yeah. So, I agree.

[02:02:38]I agree. Graduation.

[02:02:40]>> So, we shouldn't we shouldn't just say this as a blanket statement because Yeah. If you're going to go to college and you're going to drop out for one reason or another halfway through, then yeah, you just are in debt and you have no no degree to show for it. And that's like the worst of all worlds. So yeah, you should probably be very careful.

[02:02:54]>> Yes, but we're not being taught to be careful about this. And that's my problem.

[02:03:01]>> There's I agree with you. I agree with you. It shouldn't just be a standard that everyone goes to college the same way that Alex was saying this, right?

[02:03:07]That that was just the thing that was just taught, right? Because I agree.

[02:03:11]Yeah.

[02:03:12]the the dropout rate is pretty high.

[02:03:14]>> I disagree. Like sure, [ __ ] redo the elective stuff and make sure people get these other classes that we deem important, but I think the baseline should be that everyone is getting a post high school education.

[02:03:27]>> But as a but in like a trade school, Keelin, or do you mean like uh like a like an undergraduate degree?

[02:03:33]>> I think we all agree that maybe there's like some value in like some trade or something else. I don't really give a [ __ ] if people do trade schools, but there needs to be additional learning beyond high school so that people can function in society, even if it's just knowing how to vote correctly, so that they're not just voting based on the biggest WWE star who's ever ran for president.

[02:03:54]>> So, you're saying that people should have an um additional education after high school?

[02:03:58]>> Do you see the way academics vote? Keyn, are you out of your freaking gourd right now?

[02:04:03]>> I'm not saying I'm not saying make more academics. want to vote for [ __ ] AOC.

[02:04:07]Are you [ __ ] kidding me? This is the worst anti- college ad I've ever [ __ ] heard.

[02:04:11]>> I'm not saying make more academics. I'm saying like so high school maybe re redo high school or maybe kids can't even understand this but there's political lessons that people need to learn before they should be able to vote in my opinion. And it it's not even like a specific political direction. It's just the political history of the country which isn't generally taught in high school.

[02:04:38]>> You're right.

[02:04:39]>> That's intentional.

[02:04:44]>> That's that's like it's so understated. All of your life skills basically aren't taught in school either. Like your ability to manage money, your your ability to understand economics, most of that stuff is never taught to you either. So, >> we could fill it all in with life skills in in your high school years and then make college actually about careers and we'd probably be better off.

[02:05:10]>> Yeah, >> I think college >> so people should learn about careers, but I think we need to have more than careers because your focus in life should not be what you're going to do to work. It should be beyond that. How you're going to improve your society outside of work. Okay. Basically, you're it's almost as if you're advocating for something along the lines like classical education, which was about producing uh people who were thinking and trying to figure out like what to do with their lives. It wasn't about it wasn't just about trying to find the right job. It was about um it was basically about how to better yourself. It taught you how to think. Classical education did teach you how to think and that was a part of the baseline education that was based upon how a child develops. We removed that entirely and replaced it with the Prussian model >> with the Did you say Prussian?

[02:06:04]>> Yes, Prussian.

[02:06:07]>> Do this to me.

[02:06:08]>> You can't loves the Prussians. He [ __ ] loves the Prussians.

[02:06:12]>> Well, Glacier. Well, the Prussian model is the reason why we have so many stupid kids.

[02:06:20]>> You can't say that to me. I My family is descended from the Prussians.

[02:06:25]>> One one size fits all, Keelin. One size fits all.

[02:06:29]>> What?

[02:06:30]>> Just talking about I'm just talking about how they structured the school system.

[02:06:33]>> One size fits all.

[02:06:34]>> Depressions really [ __ ] this one up, Kein. Okay. Oh, >> you all get the same education throughout your your schooling years and you're only trained by the end of that to sit down, shut up, and do whatever you're told and that's that's it. That's what you get.

[02:06:50]>> But okay, so I I don't mean to just skirt past that. Like I'm kind of scatterrained right now. I'm in Louisiana. But um >> Why are you in Louisiana?

[02:06:58]>> Does Louisiana make people scatterbrained or I'm I'm very confused.

[02:07:02]>> Traveling I suppose. Yeah, the tap water.

[02:07:06]>> Yeah, it's been the tap water. But um >> are you trying to find rage page?

[02:07:09]>> No.

[02:07:10]>> Is she in Louisiana?

[02:07:11]>> No.

[02:07:12]>> Much?

[02:07:13]>> Okay, now I'm way off topic. Genuinely though. Genuinely. And I am super biased here. And I don't give a [ __ ] if I'm biased. I [ __ ] love math. I think math is the best way to make rational people.

[02:07:25]>> Dude, there's nothing wrong with you liking math, but not everyone is built with your brain.

[02:07:33]Some people find >> against math >> greater meaning in other things. That's my whole point. Like when you kept going back to mathematics, I think mathematics is fine. It's a great field and it's very important to all kinds of things, right? Physics is it needs math. Uh for sure, but I don't think it's the baseline of all things. Like if you're going to go and learn history and all the ins and outs of history, mathematics is not the most important thing on your mind and you're not going to know that all the time in in greater extents.

[02:08:11]>> Is it real? Testy, >> I'm Canada the most educated country in the entire world. How is that possible?

[02:08:18]>> This is such [ __ ] So China is eating China's eating our [ __ ] ass right now. their colleges, their education system, >> at least in certain parts of the society have another strange plot. actual biased that's so >> Can I say something about that though?

[02:08:36]Confluence is so regarded.

[02:08:39]>> Everything I see about Canada trends towards psychology in some way. Like everything every time I see like a a Canadian celebrity, they're talking about something within the field of psychology. People need to this and that. And then when I see comedians, it's all about like personalities and psychology. Like everything I see from the Canadian sphere is psychology based.

[02:09:01]And I'm like, what is going on here? Is this like an attempt to trick the world and hypnotize them into believing there's something else to this?

[02:09:13]>> Probably.

[02:09:14]>> But China China is eating our ass in science right now.

[02:09:19]>> China.

[02:09:21]>> Yeah.

[02:09:23]>> I I mean, right now, China is um China is having the majority of their students hyperfixate on um science as a way of think that it's as a way of bolstering um technological adv advancements.

[02:09:38]>> They're a technocracy and they are eating our [ __ ] ass right now.

[02:09:42]>> No, not really. They're they're dealing with >> they're they're right now they're they're having to struggle with their own populace being completely demotivated from even trying to participate in society.

[02:09:56]Well, a lot of degrees.

[02:09:59]>> They're they're making bigger and better automatons and everything. Like they're eating our ass.

[02:10:05]>> Well, so far they are not eating our ass.

[02:10:12]>> The China men are always trying to eat my ass, man. It's crazy.

[02:10:15]>> China is eating our ass right now.

[02:10:17]>> Super gross, man.

[02:10:19]I'm I'm more and more sick to my stomach every moment. And >> what are you what are you what are you talking about?

[02:10:28]>> The Chinese are going to plant a flag on the moon and take ours over.

[02:10:33]>> We did that like decades ago. So like >> allegedly >> was it 69 or 50?

[02:10:41]>> And even even if we didn't and it's impossible then they're just going to fake the same [ __ ] So either way, like so what?

[02:10:51]>> Yeah, we got to establish up there and they're going to eat our ass from the moon.

[02:10:56]>> Okay, look.

[02:11:02]>> Let's just keep going.

[02:11:05]you I >> but no I really I really the one thing I really believe people >> the one thing I really believe is that if everyone had a much stronger math education that the world would be much better >> look I don't disagree that some level of mathematical education is important for your society I don't think it's the end all be all of >> it's not the end all be all for >> I think a robust theological ical education would be beneficial. That's what I think.

[02:11:37]>> Theology I would say I would say >> theology might actually provide more boons.

[02:11:43]>> Mel, you have to apologize to me before I let you on panel. I already was through this.

[02:11:47]>> You just have to say I'm sorry in the DMs. That's all you have to say.

[02:11:51]>> Theology, >> theology, philosophy, and like civics >> would be great core baselines.

[02:12:00]And even if you're an argument or whatever, it'll give you a greater understanding of societies around you and how they're functioning and why they function that way.

[02:12:10]>> I'm totally I'm totally okay with theology being taught in in college. As long as we keep that strong science in there so that you get both flavors, you know, without the theology, with the theology, I don't give a [ __ ] >> Both flavors of what? ass that you keep wanting people to eat.

[02:12:32]>> The left side and the right side. Be disgusted if I make that joke.

[02:12:36]>> You caught me at a bad time because I had a an incident earlier. But um >> Whoa.

[02:12:43]>> No, I want you to apologize for what you spec that's all. Just the thing you specifically said on the panel. That's what I wanted. Are you apologizing for that? That was a line cross. I hate to do this on panel, but you know, I'm just saying you cannot. I'm scatterrained right now, but I'm trying to say like currently our society is in this throwing of reductive materialism where we're like everything goes down to a single particle. The plank length is a real thing and it is ev it's everywhere.

[02:13:08]It's the smallest thing blah blah blah and and we're missing that idealism, dualism, blah blah blah. And theology will get you into that, I guess. But I guess maybe you just skip the theology and do philosophy.

[02:13:21]Well, you could you could just state that physics is important as well, like right because you're still going to get a lot of that within physics. So, say say you added that to the baseline of education, right? You got physics, you've got uh philosophy, you've got theology, you've got uh civics. And then when you put all those things together, at least you have some baseline understanding of the things around you.

[02:13:44]And then from there you could go, okay, well they took civics, so let's give them some education in economics, so let's give them because if people were more if they had a a a better base in their educational uh toolbox, they could go into different areas of education and have a far better chance. But instead of that, what we're doing is like we do such weird things in school and then when people get out of high school, they have no idea what the world is.

[02:14:18]>> We spend four [ __ ] years in high school on the quadratic equation.

[02:14:24]>> Yeah, it's not that it's not that helpful.

[02:14:27]>> That's a one that's a one day lesson and then you just move on to the cool [ __ ] >> And that's the other part, too. when you're in in school, there's not everything's like paced at the teacher's pace for the whole of the class, right?

[02:14:43]>> But it would it would be better if >> if once something clicked for someone.

[02:14:47]>> Yeah.

[02:14:48]>> Once something clicked for people, then they could move on to the next stuff.

[02:14:52]>> Because if if they've got it, why are you going to dwell in that same lesson for however long? Maybe it's four weeks, maybe it's two weeks, but you got it first day and you have a complete understanding of it. You should be able to move on from that so that people could excel at the rate that they are capable of excelling at.

[02:15:14]>> Honestly, there's like so much wrong with um current school systems and how they're managed in general.

[02:15:20]What if we just made it way more difficult so that and we just gave them more time and we said make it significantly more difficult and and the the slow kids they'll get as far as they'll get with teacher assistant assistance more or less whatever we need more teachers in that case. I guess >> just make them college educated by the time they get out of high school and we're set.

[02:15:44]>> I mean, >> you know, we don't fail people anymore, right? Like you can't even hold kids back. I mean, that's not That's not a good system.

[02:15:51]>> Cannot fail people.

[02:15:53]>> Get it either. Something we both agree on apparently.

[02:15:56]>> What are the Germans doing?

[02:15:58]>> Okay. Okay. You got to you got to get you got to get timed up, brother. What the [ __ ] are you saying?

[02:16:04]>> Have the Germans falling off or are they still goated?

[02:16:08]>> Uh, I know that they're dealing with a demographic collapse that is equal to being as bad as Japan.

[02:16:15]>> But they had like this >> No thanks, Desty. They had this weird education system where they're like you I can't even explain it right now. I'm too >> you made my account confluence.

[02:16:27]>> So So I wanted I I had a suggestion in chat.

[02:16:30]>> I was thinking that until he said that >> but struggle with math.

[02:16:36]>> Okay. Yeah. And I can talk closer to my mic. For kids who struggle with math, maybe there's different ways to teach math, right? Like one of the ways I got really good at math without even trying was through coding. And I just liked doing web design and all this cool stuff you could do with web design, right? And I think a lot of kids who I knew who struggled with math were also the type of kids are kind of like ADHD but creative types who if you you could sit them down on a computer to do something kind of under their own creativity, they would find a way to do it. Uh and so you know a lot of them actually took programming in high school with me it turned out which was kind of fun. Made it a very fun class. Mel, Mel, I say this not as someone who like rejects your pronouns because I don't. I like she, her, whatever. I reject you as a person.

[02:17:20]>> I would say I would say to anyone who just said that, I'd say brother.

[02:17:25]>> The way they teach math in in like elementary, middle school, and high school is not real math. It's It's >> Wait, are you referring to the old form or common core?

[02:17:36]>> Common core for sure.

[02:17:37]>> Common core is one of the most atrocious things that was introduced to education system. I don't know why.

[02:17:43]>> When I learned programming, programming essentially taught me common core because it get it gets you to think about how number systems interact instead of just thinking about like you were complaining earlier ironically uh glacier specifically about being taught like one thing and repeating it, right?

[02:17:58]Common core is the remedy to that.

[02:18:00]Common core is getting you to think about one one problem having multiple solutions or multiple paths to the solution. Common core teaches kids how to think about math, >> not just to repeat it. Programming programming locks you into a specific number line. Like you can't really understand math that well if you're trapped on the real numbers. And it's not even the real numbers cuz you're restricted, right? You can't have a full irrational number in programming.

[02:18:27]>> Well, that doesn't really matter because nobody's really computed anything with uh a fully irrational like an infinite.

[02:18:35]>> Have you heard of Oh, you're going to say we just we just blop. The computer for that is reality itself, right? Like no simulation is ever a perfect simulacum of reality itself. Nobody's ever claimed that. So I don't get why that would be a bad thing about math.

[02:18:48]>> Are you saying that we're living in a simulation?

[02:18:52]>> No.

[02:18:53]>> Oh my god.

[02:18:54]>> Okay.

[02:18:54]>> Some >> So again, right, like if let's say you want to become an electrician, right?

[02:19:02]There's some complicated math there. But if you start with the most basic math Ohm's law, then you have a basis through which you can learn everything else from there.

[02:19:12]>> Or you just take the pedagogy, right? Or >> you start with the simplest concept.

[02:19:16]>> Take the trade school that the electrician has and then you'll learn everything that you need to.

[02:19:22]>> But you're still going to have to learn Ohm's law one way or another.

[02:19:25]>> Okay. The electrician will teach you. To be fair, there's a lot of electrician programs that are specifically like training under someone as a as an apprentice.

[02:19:35]>> So, what do we what do we do with kids?

[02:19:38]>> What do we do for kids who aren't ready to be an apprenticeship yet? Because that would be child labor and who are are ready to learn stuff, right? They're they're at least >> What are you What are you talking about?

[02:19:49]>> Yeah. What are you trying to propose?

[02:19:51]>> An apprenticeship? How how would an apprenticeship necessarily be as bad as like what we visualize child labor to be?

[02:19:59]>> Well, it's learning through work, right?

[02:20:03]>> How is that a bad thing?

[02:20:05]>> Like >> like Okay, if if I'm Okay, let's say I have an apprentice, right?

[02:20:11]>> I get that that they've done >> like there are still farm kids out there, you know?

[02:20:16]>> Soda. I I I live in those communities where they have >> kids growing up on farms.

[02:20:22]>> It is good for children to learn skills along the way.

[02:20:25]>> I mean in the past, >> but it's not good to it's not >> children as early as 12.

[02:20:30]>> It's not good to see children as a means to an end. And that's how apprentice apprentices are supposed to be to their mentor.

[02:20:37]>> No, that's how we're being treated right now in society.

[02:20:41]>> Well, the a goal of an apprentice is also to apprentice the personally, right? teaching your child skills and you know >> sorry can I just respond to Glacier Glacier in school children are not like when you >> they're treated as a means to an end they're not even anything >> well they're just making taxpayers that's >> like I said common core teaches that flexibility that you're they teach >> common core doesn't teach you flexibility my mother was a teacher common core kept changing the foundation so that the child couldn't learn [ __ ] >> foundations are the repeating that you're complaining about so you got a solution I have a solution. We're nearing the perfect solution and I've just thought about it. So, you know, if your parents do some profession, you should also do that profession. And then if you want to get married, your parents should arrange that, too. Because like, let's be honest, if everyone if we just had a line of plumbers all the way down, they'd be the best [ __ ] plumbers.

[02:21:38]>> Most kids don't start working for their parents until they're like 12.

[02:21:43]except for farms. And and let me tell you, um, kids learn a lot better through play. It turns out that's that's why babies tend to play because they're learning about the world around them.

[02:21:52]>> I think babies learn better through forced labor. That's what I think.

[02:21:57]>> I think you're a fascist.

[02:21:59]>> I think I think you can gamify most things, but I I don't necessarily agree that play is the best way to learn. I think it's one of the good ways to learn, but I don't think it's >> for babies. It's probably the best way to learn, but that's kind of do anything else, right?

[02:22:18]>> What about this? It's like a happy medium.

[02:22:21]>> Play is probably the best way to introduce children to most concepts.

[02:22:25]>> Well, here here's the thing. Kids learn when develop when kids develop, they end up learning they they end up needing different learning styles so that they can get the most out of their education.

[02:22:36]The reason why I keep on harping about classical education is that it actually pays attention to how kids develop over time and then switch how it's done. So like for the an example um in the grammar part of their education which is the very beginning they already have um kids little kids will already have an intuitive um interest in songs, rhythms and um repetition. That's where you give them a lot of essential information and play it out and teach them as a song.

[02:23:06]But when they start to get older, they start needing um they start being taught logic.

[02:23:11]>> Well, and if you look at education, I don't know what you're talking about.

[02:23:15]>> I'm talking about classical education.

[02:23:18]>> If you look at early childhood development, what you see is >> more than half the panel podesta. If you can wire uh learning into games the way that we were talking about earlier, you're creating a dopamine reaction for the learning that's entailed in the games, which actually seats the information faster. So, it is a good way to teach, especially like 0 to 5, 0 to 6, um, and even beyond that, if you can still gamify it in some way, you're linking um the reward centers in the brain to the learning of new information. So >> well my critique though about that concept.

[02:23:57]>> The reason you see kids use play well into like the age of 10 11 12 13 even and further now that video games are a thing is because cognitive flexibility doesn't necessarily mean that you can no longer learn from play. It just means you're going to diversify the ways that you learn from play. And so I would I would extend that age range uh beyond there to about 10. But you want to taper it off, right? Like you don't just want to cut cut it cold off. But that is kind of why we have high school and and uh here it's like grade seven uh six, seven, and eight start things start to change a bit and then you're in high school.

[02:24:32]>> That's because you're introducing self-discipline and things like that which means that you have to suspend >> uh a bunch of things. You have to learn how to delay gratification. You have to do all these different things which take self-discipline. And so you have to wean off of fun and games and say okay sometimes there's hard things that you got to do and you have to force yourself to do those things even if it's not fun even if there's no inherent uh playfulness to it. So >> right so we agree. So, I want to turn to Glacier for a second because you mentioned that like teaching so uh teaching through song and music stuff like that that those are good things. Uh not necessarily music theory. That's that can get pretty complicated, but um we already do that. And so it's like you're saying that we should do class >> I learned through song and and like through kids shows for example and television is really good at doing that.

[02:25:21]>> That's not what I mean though.

[02:25:23]>> And I definitely had teachers who also use song. French teacher did that rocket everywhere.

[02:25:29]>> They were teaching they were teaching >> that child learn beat our ass.

[02:25:32]>> They were teaching songs all the way up to grade eight. So Glacier, can you name anything that they did in classical education do now that they unequivocally don't do now and that just isn't your experience? everything >> that is so vague and ambiguous because you don't have any understanding of what classic education is, especially when you're trying comparing it to common core.

[02:25:56]>> I I don't think that you can explain in a way that either doesn't contradict itself like I pointed out to you doing earlier or I don't even know. No, you keep on conflating what common core is to classical education as if they're the same. I just told you several times historically they changed the fundamentals of how education was done and the reason behind why and you are ignoring it.

[02:26:21]>> So you want a education that's more flexible and adaptable to children's needs. Correct.

[02:26:30]>> No I no I >> I thought okay well again your narrative was all over the place because I thought could have swore you said that earlier.

[02:26:35]Mel, the thing is I think you're confusing me as your form of education, but right now >> I think you're I think you're hinging on like that she's saying that we we should teach kids how to think and then but you're kind of treating that as in there's like no wrote memorization or anything like that um aloud and so or that it would be better to have something that's not that. So common core is a better system.

[02:26:58]Well, that seems like where you're going with with why Common Core is better because it's teaching you in some more more like practical and like teach about math. It's teaching how to think about math. But you're but you're saying there's some contradiction with what Glacier is saying about that. But I don't think there is because I don't think Glacier >> we're not teaching kids how to think about things.

[02:27:18]>> I know. But in a broad way and you're looking at this one micro example and it's like there's some things you just have to like memorize, right? You mentioned everything else and these these are the two conditions I gave.

[02:27:27]Either it's something that contradicts itself or it's something that we already do in education that that you can't say we unequivocally don't do.

[02:27:34]>> I just told you that we don't do it in education at all as in the foundations of how it was taught.

[02:27:40]>> But you're just you're just saying that you don't teach kids. How would you know that?

[02:27:44]>> I've had experiences which directly contradict that. How is that possible?

[02:27:48]I've been researching the history of >> obviously not very well cuz I was taught French in grade eight through a song.

[02:27:54]>> How come I was taught French throughout my entire childhood through song?

[02:27:59]>> How much do you know? Real talk.

[02:28:01]>> Okay. Did apologize to me too o would you like to apologize to >> she's sweetly gentle >> for the same thing that you apologize to me for. Are are you flu fluent in French?

[02:28:17]>> I just I just said I don't trust Keyn. I if I apologize racist son of a [ __ ] >> because because it was mostly Oh. Uh no.

[02:28:26]But yeah, Confluence. Uh it was mostly because of your decision on the channel.

[02:28:29]I guess Keelin caught a straight.

[02:28:32]>> What are you talking about? You literally said my friend was underage and that I brought an underage woman on Confluence's panel. I said for sure that you didn't.

[02:28:40]>> That's not really a stray. That's kind of like a [ __ ] head shot.

[02:28:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't say I didn't wait. That's that's out of context. I said I couldn't know for sure you didn't do that and Confluence was a fool for trusting your word.

[02:28:53]>> When I told you that he sent me the the information to prove in private DMs, you said I don't believe him after I said I literally >> That's not due diligence in that scenario.

[02:29:03]>> The only way you can be absolutely sure >> the only way you can do you can be absolutely certain is when you ask somebody directly and they say yes, I am over 18 because you're right. That's absolutely certain. M. You're right.

[02:29:15]You're right.

[02:29:15]>> Yeah. But what causes him? That's all I'm saying.

[02:29:19]>> My position my position is that we risk having miners running around here. And since most of us treat this as a dating site as well. I'm not I'm not firing any shots here.

[02:29:34]>> And the red flags that set me over the edge was not you just doing that, but was when you asked and they did not give a yes, a clear yes or no answer. They said they were a [ __ ] dentist, you dummy.

[02:29:46]>> Keyn I I trust Keelin. If you don't trust Keen, that's fine. I trust Keelin.

[02:29:52]>> Went to high school with this person and Kean's in his late 20s. That's enough for me, Mel. That's not enough for you.

[02:29:59]That's fine.

[02:30:00]>> She's a [ __ ] dentist and you're like, I don't believe you.

[02:30:03]>> I stand by my judgment that you did not do your due diligence. I state I am not going to apologize for the defamation of confluence. I probably apologize for any defamation that may have come to as a result of this.

[02:30:18]>> You have allowed that definition.

[02:30:20]>> Are you taking backology?

[02:30:22]>> No, I'm I'm not done because you have allowed that same thing in chat. I did overreact and I should have kept this in DMs and I was and >> are you are you apologizing for what you called me on live or are you not apologizing?

[02:30:34]>> We've already discussed this in chat.

[02:30:36]>> At at what point Are you are you not >> confluence? Have you not let rude mud crab pedal jack me in your chat? Yes or no?

[02:30:44]>> Cuz I know the >> I have never seen this. I don't know what the [ __ ] you're talking about.

[02:30:51]>> I've seen rude mud crab like a couple of times in my chat. I have no idea what the [ __ ] you're talking about.

[02:30:57]>> I want to believe you, but the guy crashes out to the point where it's very hard to miss.

[02:31:02]>> I've seen it. He's only been in my chat, I think, a couple of times. Unless he's been in more in which case I'm sorry for not seeing him but >> I've seen >> him a few times but >> also also like first of all you know if you don't believe >> police conferences channel >> also also somebody calling me this it's my panel if you're going to like if you're going to to say something like that to me that's not the same as like oh if someone in my chat is calling that's that's that's a separate thing and that could be a serious thing too.

[02:31:30]Well, no. I'm just saying if you have a double standard, then I don't feel bad for having a double standard as well, where I don't care if you get the fame for the same thing.

[02:31:37]>> Do you care?

[02:31:38]>> I'm not going to hold myself to a standard that you don't hold yourself to.

[02:31:42]>> Yeah, but you're This is This is like you mindscaping it and it's not reality.

[02:31:47]Like, actually, allow it to happen to someone else in a chat, honestly. Like, >> okay, but So, I guess But you're saying you don't you want to believe me, but you don't believe me?

[02:31:56]>> I want to believe that you missed it.

[02:31:58]And so, At the very least, if you can apologize for missing it, knowing that that was out of your control, you won't even apologize for calling me pedophile.

[02:32:09]>> You got to let me finish. If you will apologize for that end of things for missing it, and that you promise that if you see him doing that, you will at least time him out and show that it's not acceptable, then I will apologize for this right now and never do that again.

[02:32:23]It's crazy that I have to end up in this Fouian bargain, but I >> I'm trying to be as possible. I said I want to believe he did.

[02:32:30]>> I think I think it's I think that's a real I think that's a wild thing that you're saying I have to do that first. I think that's [ __ ] crazy. But yeah, like I I because I truly did miss it and yeah, I don't want people This has happened before. People have said stuff.

[02:32:43]I Yeah, I don't think that's okay. So yeah, I'm sorry I missed this chat that you saw.

[02:32:48]>> Okay, Confluence. I am genuinely sorry for pto jacketing you then because I was under the impression that you saw and I was mistaken. I should have confronted you about that in a better way.

[02:32:57]>> No, he definitely saw it.

[02:32:59]>> Oh, [ __ ] you man. Stop trying to stop trying to [ __ ] agitate things in >> I appreciate the apology.

[02:33:07]>> That's the mushrooms whispering into his ear like Terana would talk about.

[02:33:20]Anyways, I'm I'm glad we like I do like your panels. I do like the guests you have on. In fact, I I Abe I want to know if you're interested in a video where somebody does like a 4-hour long deep dive into the history of Abe Lincoln. Um it's it's pretty nuanced and you might be interested because he's a really good historian.

[02:33:38]Um I'll link it in private chat if you are. Uh, but you have a good guest and overall, you know, I like your panels.

[02:33:46]>> I appreciate it. And I think you contribute to the conversation, Mel. I do. Okay.

[02:33:51]>> And I do think you're a decent person.

[02:33:53]That's why I want to That's why I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Um, I just, you know, I'm surprised you didn't see it. I But I do believe you at this point, >> Mel, you're a [ __ ] snake.

[02:34:05]Okay, >> Keelin, you love snakes though. So, is that like a Are you complimenting?

[02:34:14]>> Is this Is this RZ? Is Mel right? And this is kind of like a dating sphere.

[02:34:20]>> Mel, you are a [ __ ] stain on underwear.

[02:34:24]>> Well, Keelin doesn't like that presumably. I mean, I don't know, but >> it's hard to tell at the moment.

[02:34:30]>> China's eating our ass, man. So, I mean, I don't know.

[02:34:32]>> Oh my god. Uh, why are we being reminded of this again?

[02:34:37]>> Okay. Um, anyways, I'm going to It's best that I leave unless I want some extra ambiance behind my voice. So, I'm going to grease you with my absence.

[02:34:48]>> All right. Well, I'm glad we made peace.

[02:34:50]I'm glad we made peace, Bill.

[02:34:51]>> At least.

[02:34:52]>> Now, we just got to bring Stacy back.

[02:34:54]>> Yeah, we can we can bring Eduardo, Stacy, the dude. We can bring all the people back.

[02:35:01]>> Oh my gosh. I feel like >> like >> speak your mind, Dave. Speak your mind.

[02:35:12]>> It's probably not for the best.

[02:35:14]>> Do it. Do it. Let the intrusive thoughts win.

[02:35:19]>> Yes.

[02:35:24]>> I feel like using Oh, man.

[02:35:30]What?

[02:35:32]>> I feel like you just got like wrangled and controlled like hardcore just now.

[02:35:41]>> Yeah. I mean, >> I feel like you just got fullblown manipulated into apologizing to somebody that you were demanding an apology from.

[02:35:49]And you only got the apology because you apologized first.

[02:35:53]>> I know. I know. I'm aware of that. I'm aware of that.

[02:35:57]>> Yeah.

[02:35:57]>> I'm aware of that. But it's one of those things where I'm thinking about it. It's like I I said it's I think it's cucked that I have to [ __ ] apologize first.

[02:36:04]But if I did miss it, that is something that I do feel bad about like on its own in isolation.

[02:36:10]>> You can't be responsible for another human being's behavior. Somebody else was being an [ __ ] Cool.

[02:36:16]They cannot they cannot have to do with that person. They could block that person. That's fine. It's not >> if I saw if I saw someone call Podesta something really untoward, right? I would I would time them out or I would tell them to stop. I that is there is lines where it's like when someone says something I think it like crosses a line I will stop.

[02:36:36]>> So you need to apologize for the behavior of somebody else because you didn't catch it and do something about it.

[02:36:43]>> Yeah, that that sounds stupid.

[02:36:45]>> You need to apologize for somebody else's behavior in order to get a uh an apology from somebody's behavior towards you. something you didn't do, you just apologize for in order to secure an apology for somebody who did something to you.

[02:36:58]>> Confluence, I appreciate you taking the stance of forgiveness, >> but um Mel is a [ __ ] narcissist. I've said this in the past like there are just more and more examples of this happening.

[02:37:11]>> I know that you didn't man >> I mean like I look I agree but it is like >> you just got dog walked into an apology.

[02:37:21]I understand. I understand. But I I I don't know. I try to >> I don't know. I try.

[02:37:28]>> Can I Can I show one book? Just like one one book.

[02:37:34]>> Sure. In fact, name 10 books.

[02:37:37]>> 10 books.

[02:37:38]>> Well, I let me start with one book. One book.

[02:37:42]>> You can start with one book.

[02:37:44]>> Uh I would say something worth reading would be how to read a book. The intelligent guide of int Oh, wait. No, the classical.

[02:37:51]>> Oh, but how do you read That's a paradox. How do you read the book to find out how to read a book, right?

[02:37:56]>> Well, you I mean, do you know how to read a book?

[02:37:59]>> No, that's why I'd be picking up that book, presumably, right?

[02:38:02]>> Okay, then we can learn from this book together.

[02:38:07]>> Holy [ __ ] >> God, what the [ __ ] was that? That's the gayest [ __ ] I've ever seen in my [ __ ] life.

[02:38:15]>> I knew everything.

[02:38:16]>> How much did you drink today, Confluence? I understand. I tried to pick the higher path.

[02:38:22]>> How much soda you drink?

[02:38:24]>> I had I tried to pick the higher path.

[02:38:26]Okay. Make peace. You know, try to build bridges.

[02:38:30]>> Peace. You just jerked someone off on stream. It was gay as [ __ ] >> It's pretty much what Stacy did.

[02:38:40]>> Jesus.

[02:38:40]>> I feel my I understand. I said I understand. I get I get I get the cuckold of it all. I understand. But but >> the thing that bugs me more than that confluence is you have some training in psychology. You should have seen through all of the manipulation that just hit you.

[02:38:58]>> I see the manipula. I'm not unaware.

[02:39:00]Okay. For everyone watching, okay, I'm aware. I'm aware. But I still think there's like a maybe a good path to take and there's maybe the a more like stubborn path to take, which is a totally reasonable path to take, too.

[02:39:12]Not even stubborn in a bad way. Just kind of like a yeah, you don't I don't want to deal with this [ __ ] But but I was thinking in my mind if this was anybody if if someone's like, "Hey, this was said in the chat, you know, this person was calling me this and you know, and you didn't see it." I would probably I probably would. And now if they demanded, I understand. Especially in exchange, all that shit's gay. But if somebody was just like, "Hey, yeah, you missed this thing and someone is really saying that this like awful stuff about me. It's not true." I would be like, "Oh, sorry. I Yeah, I missed it." Like if anybody if anyone that's in my chat said this and you know, I would say the same thing. I would apologize to them.

[02:39:45]So, I'm trying to think beyond manipulation, is this something that I would just be like, "Hey, yeah, sorry I missed it. I don't want to have an environment where people are like calling each other really bad things."

[02:39:55]>> Well, now confluence.

[02:39:57]>> Now, Confluence, you owe me an apology for being fake and gay.

[02:40:03]>> I'm not going to do that cuz I am not fake nor gay. How dare you? I'm just Canadian. And that's fine because I'm mostly American. Okay.

[02:40:12]>> Canada's fake and gay. Oh, >> that's fake and gay. That's I mean, you did you did get me there. Okay, >> so tangentially, you're fake and gay.

[02:40:22]>> No. Pause. No, >> you're in a place that's fake and gay and you just did something that's fake and gay. So, >> look, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I think it's better to try to build bridges even if you end up being a bit even if you have to I don't know.

[02:40:41]>> Being a little fake and gay. It's not I don't know if it's fake and gay. Like I said, I've tried I tried to dichomize it in the moment, okay, of would I apologize if this wasn't someone that had done the X, Y, and Z and I was making these demands. Would I just apologize for this thing? And I would apologize for this thing. If Testy said it, if Podesta said it, if any of you guys said it that I missed this thing, I'd be like, "Oh, sorry about that. I if I would have saw it, I would have timed the person. I would told him not to say this because I don't want like weird allegations in my I would have apologized." issue with what Mel just said in chat. She said she out Canadian you. That's [ __ ] That doesn't make any [ __ ] sense. A Canadian would not be like, "Oh, conditionally apologized to me and I will conditionally apologize to you." No, you out Canadian her that [ __ ] You said, "I'm sorry for something that you shouldn't be sorry about. Can you apologize to me now and we'll be good?"

[02:41:34]>> Are you trying to call me fake and gay, Keyn? Is that what you're trying to call me?

[02:41:38]He I think you owe all of us an apology for being fake and gay now.

[02:41:42]>> Yeah, you kind of >> I'm dichomizing it. And would I apologize for that normally? No, I would not. So therefore, I'm not going to apologize for it now. I'm consistent.

[02:41:50]Okay.

[02:41:51]>> No. So now you >> if you think about it.

[02:41:56]>> Well, you definitely owe an apology.

[02:42:01]>> So I don't think >> you do.

[02:42:03]>> I don't think I do. I'll apologize for a lot of things.

[02:42:07]>> We can take a vote. I bet you chat agree.

[02:42:08]>> I noticed you keep saying I'm not fake, but you're not saying the second part, >> which is concerning to me.

[02:42:14]>> The second thing I have an issue with is that like the way Mel apologized was like giving excuses for why she shouldn't have to apologize and saying, "Oh, I'll apologize anyway." It's not a [ __ ] apology.

[02:42:26]>> But that's the best apology you're ever going to get from Mel. So, I'm also Maybe that's a soft big tree of low expectations, but I know Mel's never going to be like, "Look, conflict." I'm truly sorry. I shouldn't have done this.

[02:42:35]That's never going to happen. And even Mel knows that's ever going to happen. I don't think that's insulting. It's never going to happen, right? So, I mean, >> there has to be some like >> Yeah. I I mean, from what I know, Mel, I think that's not going to happen.

[02:42:52]>> So, this was this was Mel apologizing in her own way if you think about it.

[02:42:56]>> No.

[02:42:59]>> Probably the best apology Mel has ever done in her entire life. Okay, let's be honest.

[02:43:04]>> I'm going to throw you a bone.

[02:43:07]If If there's an ultimatum to get an apology, it's not an apology >> pretty much.

[02:43:14]>> I mean, I don't Yeah, I don't dis I don't disagree, but Mel already apologized in chat, then kind of walked it back a little bit on panel.

[02:43:24]So, you know, that's just on panel.

[02:43:26]>> She only [ __ ] apologized to get something.

[02:43:29]>> How much [ __ ] coke do I have to listen to right now?

[02:43:33]Is this ser Are you [ __ ] serious right now?

[02:43:35]>> Barely ever is a good story.

[02:43:37]>> This is the gayest [ __ ] I've ever heard in my life. This is the gayest [ __ ] that's happened in like in several months. Every time I come to your channel, something gay happens. This is the gayest thing that's happened in a long time. Get control [ __ ] >> Now you're eating ass confluence.

[02:43:53]>> Yeah, I can't.

[02:43:54]>> Am I eating China's ass or what?

[02:43:57]>> No, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that, man. Don't say that.

[02:44:02]happened. It just happened.

[02:44:03]>> Too late.

[02:44:03]>> I'm just trying to do right or whatever.

[02:44:05]I don't [ __ ] know, man.

[02:44:08]>> I don't like having beef with people.

[02:44:11]>> What's right, confluence?

[02:44:14]>> [ __ ] up.

[02:44:16]>> Track of what we were supposed to be doing. What was the purpose of this?

[02:44:19]Like the to watch a debate. That's right. It was to watch a debate.

[02:44:23]>> I'm too busy choking.

[02:44:26]Jesus.

[02:44:27]>> Yeah.

[02:44:29]>> I'm sorry. I'm sorry for choking. Just kidding. I'm not sorry. You know what?

[02:44:37][ __ ] apologies. My apology.

[02:44:40]>> Sorry.

[02:44:40]>> I got my apology.

[02:44:42]>> It's already too late.

[02:44:45]>> And guess what?

[02:44:50]>> I didn't have to apologize to get the apology from you.

[02:44:53]>> Well, that's true. You met a gamed even harder than Mel was.

[02:44:57]>> But surely you get that. I understand Mel is, you know, maybe, you know, Mel's not like my closest friend, let's say.

[02:45:04]We're not enemies, but we're not like, you know, but we we're friendly before, you know, she did the whole untoward stuff. But if somebody, right, if if a friend have you ever had a friend come to you, now maybe not in exact quid proquo apology style that Mel did, but where they want you to apologize for, you don't really think necessarily you did something wrong, but somehow they're hurt and you're like, okay, yeah, maybe there's something I could have done better here. And so you're like, "Yeah, this is something they're like, if they're actually hurt by this, >> if I legitimately if I legitimately did something wrong in my actions, then I would apologize. But if I did nothing wrong in my actions, somebody else did something, I'm not apologizing for them to secure an apology from the person who did something wrong to me. That's ridiculous."

[02:45:49]>> I wouldn't say I wouldn't say I did apology, though.

[02:45:52]>> Yes. Because at that point then you are now responsible for anyone's behavior at any time that somebody found offensive or wrong towards them and you now have to be responsible for them and apologize on their behalf.

[02:46:05]>> No, but this is something that if I saw it, this is something that I would say this is not this is not okay.

[02:46:12]>> You wouldn't say sorry. You would say stop it or you would time the person out, but you wouldn't be apologizing for somebody. But the sorry thing would be if I if I missed it or didn't deal with it or something like that.

[02:46:24]>> That would be when it's like okay. Yeah.

[02:46:25]No, I wasn't I wasn't like watching. I have some responsibility.

[02:46:29]>> How you you're sorry that you weren't actively watching to protect people in your chat.

[02:46:35]>> Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

[02:46:37]>> So, wait, you you're apologizing.

[02:46:39]>> It's not like I have like a really fast moving chat, right?

[02:46:45]>> Confluence.

[02:46:48]You get what I'm saying?

[02:46:49]>> This is really This is really sad.

[02:46:51]Unfortunately, you are not grounded.

[02:46:56]>> Okay. In what? In what way?

[02:47:00]>> You're not grounded. That's all.

[02:47:02]>> I feel like you need to say more.

[02:47:06]>> I don't think more is going to help.

[02:47:12]>> Okay. Very helpful. Very good feedback.

[02:47:15]A I'm just giving you my point of view.

[02:47:21]>> To see some really fantastic uh back flippery from you. Otherwise, I I'm I don't know, man.

[02:47:32]>> I feel like I explained my position pretty clear.

[02:47:36]>> Yeah, but it's it's stupid.

[02:47:40]>> That's fine. And I understand. I get like I agree with you in the majority of the case. I agree. An apology for an apology is stupid. I agree Mel's being manipulative. I agree with all that stuff. I'm just saying I you can at least get my point of view. I do believe that if I dichomize it, if someone came to me, if Keelin came to me and he's like, "Someone was saying something really nasty in the chat. You didn't say anything." I would say, "Sorry, bro. I missed it. I I didn't catch it." I would apologize.

[02:48:06]>> No. No. Because Keelin wouldn't do that.

[02:48:08]Keelin would come to you and be like, "Hey, this mofo said some [ __ ] you need to watch for them and maybe ban him next time. He wouldn't be asking you for an apology.

[02:48:18]>> I wouldn't do either of those things. I would tell Confluence this effing cword in the chat is a piece of and that would be that.

[02:48:28]>> But if you did if you did say, "Hey, I feel I thought I thought you saw this and you didn't stop it. I felt like I was attacked." I I would I would ap I'm not saying you would want me to, but if he did, I would be like, "Okay." Yeah.

[02:48:40]Yeah. I'm sorry about that.

[02:48:41]>> Yeah. self-respecting person is going to come up here and tell you you need to apologize because somebody insulted them in the chat.

[02:48:49]>> Look, I understand that. I'm just I'm trying to dichomize those things and just say this situation on its own.

[02:48:54]>> Would I would I you know, would I apologize? Apart from the manipulation, apart from the pro, apart from all that, >> I have a question.

[02:49:04]>> I would like to say this real quick and then I got to go. I'm sleepy. But I would like to say how I love how this actually unified Confluence's chat for once that Confluence is actually being [ __ ] right now. It's really great.

[02:49:18]All the left and right is united at once.

[02:49:21]>> All at once just to call Confluence stupid for doing this. It's great.

[02:49:26]>> Yeah, that's true.

[02:49:29]>> I can't believe you.

[02:49:31]>> Should I have demanded an apology from Mel?

[02:49:34]>> I I complimented your haircut and I take it back now.

[02:49:38]Oh, >> how dare you?

[02:49:40]>> Hey. Hey, Glacier. What do you think about Kanye West?

[02:49:44]>> I don't care about him.

[02:49:47]>> Why?

[02:49:49]>> Why should I give a [ __ ] about him?

[02:49:51]>> Like, do you not care about who he is now or who he has ever been?

[02:49:55]>> I don't give a [ __ ] I never listen to his music.

[02:49:58]>> That's crazy.

[02:50:00]>> That is crazy. Graduation. One of the [ __ ] best rap albums of all time.

[02:50:04]Okay. Don't ask.

[02:50:05]>> Okay. Okay. You're making an assumption that I like rap.

[02:50:10]>> No, like half black, so he's allowed to do that.

[02:50:13]>> What are you talking about? No, I did not make the assumption she likes rap.

[02:50:16]She's saying some [ __ ] that Kanye West would say about education.

[02:50:20]>> I'm talking about confluence. I don't know what Kanye West said about education. I don't follow celebrities as a baseline.

[02:50:27]>> He just has esoteric takes.

[02:50:29]>> He Yes, he has very crazy esoteric takes.

[02:50:37]But confluence use the tune everyone listens to rap or what?

[02:50:42]>> Yes, he does.

[02:50:45]>> He thinks it's the most prolific music style.

[02:50:50]>> Prolific isn't a good thing, you know?

[02:50:52]>> I mean, it's it's gone to waste. It's just like the majority of black people that do rap just do rap.

[02:50:58]>> Old Kanye was good. Old Kanye again, graduation.

[02:51:02]I don't I I just don't >> I don't even know what you're talking about.

[02:51:05]>> I don't listen to you. You >> don't listen to That's crazy to banjo. Okay.

[02:51:10]>> Like I'm just going to be honest with you.

[02:51:14]I'm just going to be honest with you.

[02:51:15]>> He makes good music. I don't think he's like a good rapper.

[02:51:18]>> The the majority of the music that I listen to is alternative rock and metal.

[02:51:24]>> Do you ever listen to AFI?

[02:51:26]>> AFI sounds familiar?

[02:51:29]listen to alternative and don't even know AFI is terrible times that that's also like 20 years ago confluence >> and they're still pumping out banger 20 years ago dude >> y >> I'm just listen you're kind of showing your age so not only look I I'm starting to lose faith >> still making music >> I'm really starting to lose >> I probably heard a couple of their songs but um like a couple of the bands that I listen to more regularly. I like 21 Pilots and I like J um AJR. I can listen to them and >> Oh. Oh, >> I don't care.

[02:52:10]>> AJR.

[02:52:12]>> I don't care what anybody has to say.

[02:52:13]>> I was more shocked by the 21 Pilots. I mean, they're fine.

[02:52:16]>> 21 Pilots is good, but AJR is controversial.

[02:52:21]>> Yeah. No [ __ ] controversial pick. No [ __ ] [ __ ] I still love AJR. I also like Sleep Token.

[02:52:29]I'm gonna go fall in a dark hole.

[02:52:32]>> Lost all respect for me and my panel.

[02:52:35]>> That was too much for you, Abe.

[02:52:37]>> No, I mean >> A's still thinking about me and how much I've disappointed.

[02:52:41]>> I am. I am.

[02:52:43]>> I'm so >> Holy [ __ ] Okay. What >> makes you feel any better? A I'm disappointed.

[02:52:52]>> Jealous of you. Mildly jealous of you.

[02:52:59]But yeah, >> you know, AJR is better than Radio Head.

[02:53:06]>> Sure.

[02:53:09]>> See, Steelman's proud of me. There we go. The one guy. The one guy who understands my point of view. Okay, >> maybe you should Maybe you should go on a vision quest and eat some mushrooms with him. Confluence.

[02:53:22]>> Maybe I should. Maybe I should. You can add to your you can add to your emotional repertoire.

[02:53:34]>> By the way, I was kidding about the Radio Head thing. Like that was awful of me to say to say that AGR is better than Radio Head.

[02:53:41]>> I knew you I knew you had to I knew you felt the need to correct that, Helen.

[02:53:44]That's how well I know you. You couldn't just let that go cuz there is the chance that someone took you seriously and you had to correct it. Okay. How is that not more cuck than me? Okay, can we all get mad at Keelin for that for a second?

[02:53:57]That's got to be worse than what I did.

[02:53:58]>> Because this is a music preference and a joke about a music preference. Yours is a realworld event.

[02:54:06]>> Yeah.

[02:54:07]>> And even ramifications. Listen, if you were dating a woman and she was sitting next to you and that all just happened, she is drier than she will ever be and she is not staying there tonight.

[02:54:21]>> I'm not trying to [ __ ] Mel.

[02:54:24]>> I said if you had a girlfriend and she was in the room with you.

[02:54:28]>> I said if you had a girlfriend and she was in the room with you.

[02:54:31]>> Yeah, I'm going to behave probably different. First of all, if my girlfriend called me a pedophile, that would be concerning. But >> oh my gosh, >> I'm saying if if you had a girlfriend and she was sitting in that room with you and witnessed that whole event, >> maybe that would make sense, but >> and witnessed that whole event.

[02:54:46]>> That would have been too ridiculous.

[02:54:47]>> She would have looked at you and went, "Yep, I'm out for now. Peace."

[02:54:53]>> Glacier, you have to listen you have to listen to Radio Head if you haven't.

[02:54:58]>> I mean, I've listened to some of Radio Head's songs. I'm pretty sure >> there's kind of a deep cut called creep.

[02:55:05]Have you ever heard that song? Not many people know it.

[02:55:09]>> Creep is like the song they regret.

[02:55:15]>> Song is like Creep is like the song that nobody forgets.

[02:55:19]>> Actually, I there's a really good cover of Creep that I like listening to.

[02:55:24]>> I don't have an issue with Creep, but Radio Head hates Creep.

[02:55:29]>> Oh, that's too bad. radio headp Yeah. Yeah. It's like imagine dragon in its time or um >> radioactive.

[02:55:41]>> Imagine dragon. Imagine dragons.

[02:55:44]>> Yes. Imagine dragons and the songs it's time and radioactive. Those two songs have been overplayed. The moment that I heard them after a while, I couldn't listen to it for years.

[02:55:56]>> Or like the the killers with Mr. Bright Side. Oh my gosh.

[02:56:02]>> I just docked myself.

[02:56:04]>> Don't do that.

[02:56:06]>> I said I said dragons and then right after she says dragons.

[02:56:11]>> Yeah.

[02:56:12]>> Oh yeah. Revealing your Midwestern >> learn to pronounce words the correct way.

[02:56:19]>> You keep [ __ ] where what general region of the United States or Canada are you from?

[02:56:28]I bet you can't I bet you can't guess.

[02:56:33]>> You give me like you could be like one of those North Dotans.

[02:56:39]>> I was going to say I was going to say North Dakota, too.

[02:56:42]>> No.

[02:56:42]>> No. Wait. No. Actually, no. Wait. No.

[02:56:44]Actually, no. That's I'm probably cheating. Montana, right? Yeah.

[02:56:49]>> I was close. I was close.

[02:56:51]>> Yeah.

[02:56:51]>> Yeah. But I don't have a Minnesota or a North Dakota accent, right? I don't say North Dakota.

[02:56:59]I'm kind of mostly devoid of accent honestly.

[02:57:03]>> But your your vibe is it is low-key Fargo coded. That's true. That's true.

[02:57:08]>> I don't even know what kind of >> I don't know what it is exactly what I have.

[02:57:13]>> Boston.

[02:57:14]>> Boston.

[02:57:16]You think you think my accent's Boston?

[02:57:19]>> Boston.

[02:57:20]>> She's probably in Texas or something.

[02:57:23]>> Actually, I live down south.

[02:57:25]A bit too far south, Abe, >> but I do live south.

[02:57:28]>> North Carolina.

[02:57:31]>> Well, that's too that's too far west now.

[02:57:34]>> Kentucky.

[02:57:36]>> Um, that's still a little bit too far west.

[02:57:39]>> Probably Arizona or >> it's [ __ ] It's Oh my god, it's Tennessee.

[02:57:43]>> That's too far east. A >> Louisiana.

[02:57:46]>> Holy.

[02:57:48]>> No, she doesn't have Louisiana accent.

[02:57:51]Actually, Confluence is actually the closest so far with >> system >> Arkansas.

[02:57:56]>> No. Oh, wow. Okay, now you're the closest.

[02:58:00]>> It's Oklahoma, isn't it?

[02:58:02]>> Yep.

[02:58:04]>> That's [ __ ] crazy. I've never talked to anyone from Oklahoma in my life.

[02:58:07]>> I don't I don't know if I have either.

[02:58:09]Not since that guy that did that word stuff in like the 80s.

[02:58:12]>> Good to see you, EMTT.

[02:58:13]>> Look, it's it's a a wild EMTT has appeared.

[02:58:19]Don't listen to what Don't listen to what anyone tells you about what happened on this panel tonight. They're all going to lie to you. They're going to gaslit you. Just be prepared for that.

[02:58:28]>> That is It's funny you say that.

[02:58:32]>> It's funny you say that.

[02:58:36]>> Okay. Can you guys hear me now?

[02:58:38]>> Now we can.

[02:58:40]>> Okay. So So yeah, I said dark inside, but nobody could hear me. That's fine.

[02:58:49]How's it going?

[02:58:50]>> Okay, >> it's going good. How are you guys doing?

[02:58:53]>> Going great.

[02:58:54]>> It's going.

[02:58:56]>> I've been thinking about you.

[02:58:58]>> I know you have.

[02:59:00]>> Uh, I want to congratulate the, you know, both you Confluence and Glacier.

[02:59:07]>> Okay, I'm getting the [ __ ] out of you, EMTT.

[02:59:11]>> Especially because I got my my invite to the wedding and I'm really happy.

[02:59:15][ __ ] Oh my gosh. I'm burning you, EMTT.

[02:59:18]>> Save the date. Okay.

[02:59:19]>> Confluence is not allowed to date black women.

[02:59:23]>> I I >> What? How dare you?

[02:59:25]>> I don't know. You're anti-misogenation, Keenan. That's crazy. Crazy mask.

[02:59:29]>> Just you. I said just you.

[02:59:31]>> Crazy mask off moment, brother. That's crazy.

[02:59:34]>> Just you.

[02:59:37]>> Can I Can I get a plus one? Just asking for a friend. Just being sure.

[02:59:42]>> There's no way.

[02:59:42]>> We'll we'll talk about it. Glacier. I think we could maybe get a plus one for >> Em that display coins. Not after that display.

[02:59:50]>> I think everyone's getting burnt in effigy for this.

[02:59:54]>> What? So, what happened today that supposed to be so mean or awful or whatever?

[02:59:59]>> Ced.

[03:00:01]>> Wait, I'm confused. So, is Glazier not too young for you?

[03:00:07]>> Yes. Yes, she is.

[03:00:08]>> For me or for EMTT or for >> for you, buddy? No. Why would Glacier be too young for me? Glacier is like I think late 20s.

[03:00:19]>> That's too young for you.

[03:00:21]>> That's not too How old do you think I am, Keyn? Settle down.

[03:00:24]>> 34.

[03:00:26]>> You're close.

[03:00:28]>> Why would late 20s too young for 34?

[03:00:30]>> Yeah. Why would late 20s be too young for 34?

[03:00:32]>> That's weird. That's a weird take.

[03:00:34]>> That is a bit weird.

[03:00:36]>> That's like >> 34.

[03:00:38]>> What's wrong with you, Keyn? It has to deal with different stages of life.

[03:00:44]>> Nope.

[03:00:45]>> You know how much arrested development I have? I'm sorry.

[03:00:48]>> Confluence is in his depressed dad era >> and era.

[03:00:56]>> I'm like perpetually in my early 20s like mentally and socially. Okay. So, >> Glacier seems to still be having fun with life.

[03:01:04]>> Oh my god.

[03:01:04]>> I'm having fun with life. I'm going to buy some rosé tomorrow.

[03:01:09]I was going to say gay all time, but not in that way.

[03:01:12]>> Dad scenario you're talking about. Maybe he'd have a car, but >> that's what I mean. That's what I'm talking about with the arrested development. I should be dating like 18year-old. I have like no car. I live in a Taiwanese family's basement. I'm like, you know, >> he said he'd date an 18-year-old. That means Oh my god. Someone get I would but I would but I'm just saying that that's probably like my you know >> stage of mental maturity. Yeah.

[03:01:41]>> What's your >> I went on I went I went on a date with a freaking 20-year-old last year. Keyn, there's nothing wrong with that.

[03:01:47]>> 14year age gap.

[03:01:50]>> That doesn't matter, dude.

[03:01:51]>> What does it matter?

[03:01:52]>> Back in the day.

[03:01:53]>> It's 2026.

[03:01:55]>> No. No. Don't you say back in the day?

[03:01:58]>> Yeah, that's fair. back in the day.

[03:02:01]>> That's total [ __ ] >> You talk to all the grandparents, there's like 10 year plus age gaps all over the place.

[03:02:09]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[03:02:10]>> Yeah. Back grandparents back in the day.

[03:02:14]>> Yeah. My mom was 16 when my dad met her.

[03:02:18]>> What?

[03:02:20]>> She was 16 when my dad >> I thought you said she was 60 and I'm like what the hell?

[03:02:28]>> How did she have you? How did she even have you?

[03:02:32]>> I don't [ __ ] know.

[03:02:34]>> She ages backwards. She's She's getting down to her like tens now. So, >> well, the Benjamin Button thing button.

[03:02:41]>> Yep.

[03:02:41]>> Yep.

[03:02:44]>> Looks to be her.

[03:02:48]>> Yeah.

[03:02:48]>> So, Oklahoma is a sad >> compliment. Don't let them give you so much [ __ ] >> I know. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, >> Glacier. I went to Oklahoma City and I was put up in the creepiest hotel I've ever been in in my life.

[03:03:03]>> No, I've never been I've never been to Oklahoma City.

[03:03:06]>> You've never been to Oklahoma City?

[03:03:07]Never.

[03:03:08]>> Wait. Have you lived in Oklahoma your whole life and you never been to Oklahoma City? How's that possible?

[03:03:12]>> Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why are you saying that? I lived in Oklahoma City all my life. I never said that.

[03:03:16]>> No, he said Oklahoma all >> Well, then where are you where are you from?

[03:03:21]>> Where am I from? So, where have I lived the longest?

[03:03:25]>> Like, where were you born? Let's start there. Start at the beginning, go to the end, and then stop.

[03:03:30]>> Okay.

[03:03:31]>> I was born I was born in Queens, New York, >> but I never lived in Queens, New York.

[03:03:39]>> I spent the majority of my life, as in like 10 plus years in Florida, >> but I've been hopping around a couple of years before I settled in Oklahoma.

[03:03:49]>> Was it the Queen's New York plantation?

[03:03:52]>> Military parents by chance?

[03:03:55]Um, here's the funny thing. My mom was in the military, but she left when um she left the military when I was about four years old, but I did have a surrogate father who was actively in the military, but they were um they never we never lived in the same under the same roof. He he usually just showed up during a lot of the major milestones and graduations as well as um got to take a lot of summer trips with him.

[03:04:28]>> Oh, great. Family Dr. >> I also have daddy issues to be there.

[03:04:34]>> I can pull off I can pull off a Georgia cracker because uh it's a >> How come you can call me slurs? That's crazy. I >> I have all the >> Georgia cracker is a dialect sir.

[03:04:49]>> Anyway, >> so about those plantation jokes that EMTT >> Yes, I I know I listen at least you were born in a plantation. I was born in a rancho gaba. It's fine. Everybody knows it.

[03:05:05]>> Yeah, it's the way it goes. But by the way, it actually happened. I'm from a small town in Mexico. So I did I was actually born in a rancho in Mexico.

[03:05:14]>> Nice.

[03:05:15]>> I don't know.

[03:05:16]>> Was it a Was it a barn? A manger?

[03:05:19]>> No. No. We >> we did have you know we did had like clinics and [ __ ] >> But then I I had we have the basilica which is a place with a the virgin because it's cath catholic and [ __ ] Pretty nice. Pretty nice. It was the nicest building in the whole town. It was the was the the church to be fair.

[03:05:39]If Abraham Lincoln was alive today, he would live in Montana for sure.

[03:05:45]>> What makes you say that?

[03:05:47]>> I feel that too. I don't know if it's just because of Abe Dinkus that was the problem, but to check out >> I know of an Abe Dinkus who lives in Montana and and you know, he does have the hat >> and the beard.

[03:05:59]>> If I if I was alive today, the kingdom of the United States would probably be uh up and running. I'm gonna go ahead >> and uh I'm I gotta go. But yeah, I just had to come by >> say say thank you to both you Confluence and and to you Glazer for the invite.

[03:06:20]It's very nice.

[03:06:21]>> Save the date. Remember? Yep.

[03:06:24]>> Yeah, it's uh it was it's been awesome.

[03:06:26]So yeah, >> check the registry, get us a good gift, etc. >> How are you?

[03:06:31]>> Before you go, >> I'm so glad. Oh, sorry.

[03:06:33]>> Who are you going to beat up?

[03:06:36]Who am I going to beat up? Nobody.

[03:06:37]>> Yeah. Who are you on your way to beat up now?

[03:06:41]>> Uh, nobody.

[03:06:45]>> Are you sure?

[03:06:45]>> I mean, I I I track on ream because I think he's [ __ ] mate, but other than that, no.

[03:06:51]>> Okay.

[03:06:53]>> Okay.

[03:06:54]>> Just checking.

[03:06:55]>> Yeah. The >> You said you were going to make a diss you said you were going to make a diss track about me and I never saw it. So, I was just checking. The difference is if I you know you probably you have to to make some to say something [ __ ] and then I you know piss me off and then I challenge you to a debate and you decide not to not to accept the debate and that will piss me that will piss me off enough to have enough enough you know rage inside of me >> that sounds like someone I know >> get the dra.

[03:07:27]What if it's not a debate that I want to take?

[03:07:33]Do I still get a diss track?

[03:07:35]>> Yeah, you get a diss track.

[03:07:36]>> Okay, awesome.

[03:07:38]>> Piss me off. You have to say something [ __ ] first.

[03:07:41]>> Confluence has to leave as well. It is way past his bedtime. Tomorrow it's D and D, which I know maybe doesn't interest a lot of you, but you can. It's not too late to join.

[03:07:51]>> Alex, yes, you have to join. Glacier, I think you would like it. Abe, I don't know if you'd like it. working then just like >> yes I work >> this freaking job >> you know like people have jobs >> all right >> most people have jobs in the day okay >> yeah I don't work I don't have the usual kind of job that most have okay >> lose all respect for me okay just don't think about tonight just forget about tonight it didn't even happen if you think about it I I don't know what you're talking about the truth of the matter is I don't have to lose for respect for people if I don't respect people, right?

[03:08:27]>> That's even That's the meanest thing you could say. That's the meanest thing you could say. Do you even respect me to begin with?

[03:08:33]>> Look, I didn't say that. I said I don't have to lose respect if I don't respect people, right?

[03:08:39]>> I think the implication is clear.

[03:08:41]>> Well, I think I I think you can't respect you. You can't lose respect.

[03:08:46]>> Legitimately, you cannot not not like you don't have >> So, your respect for me hasn't gone down at all, I guess, is what you're saying.

[03:08:52]>> Exactly.

[03:08:52]>> Yes. That is exactly it. If I was already at rock bottom, then [ __ ] all y'all. Okay. What What What am I feeling bad for? [ __ ] all y'all. Okay.

[03:09:01]>> What? What the heck? That was just Abe.

[03:09:02]Abe said that he specifically every >> He just starts thrashing everyone.

[03:09:09]>> Compliment.

[03:09:10]>> Yeah. [ __ ] off, Alex. [ __ ] you.

[03:09:13]>> To me. Compliment.

[03:09:14]>> Honestly, you gain some points on my side.

[03:09:16]>> There you go.

[03:09:17]>> That's freaking hilarious.

[03:09:19]>> It takes a bigger person to actually make an apology first.

[03:09:22]>> All right. I'm sorry you're offended, Glacier. Oh [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Thank you.

[03:09:26]>> God damn it.

[03:09:27]>> What?

[03:09:30]>> All right, take care, guys. See you tomorrow, Ros.

[03:09:35]Okay, don't threaten me with a good time. God bless everyone. Take care.

[03:09:38]See, Alex, see you chat. God bless you all. Peace out.