Breeder Selection: Adults

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-11

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[00:01:41]Hey everybody, I'm Rebecca from Thieving Otter Farm >> and I'm Leah with Southern Bophiliac Urban Farm >> and we are Two Chicks Katnix bringing you the scoop, >> not the poop >> on Katnix Quail. [laughter] So, um, we thought that we'd get back into breeder selection. Yes, it's it's time.

[00:02:04]>> It's time. It's time. We've covered >> especially with so many people hatching and it's spring and Yeah, it's time.

[00:02:11]>> Yeah, people are people have the spring crazies and they want to um hatch out as many as they can. I know I do.

[00:02:19][laughter] So, we should talk about how to select our braiders so we can hatch out some quality chicks, right?

[00:02:26]>> Definitely. So, we've talked about um if if you've missed it, we've talked about egg selection, um chicks, and juveniles. Um so, go back and watch those if you've missed them.

[00:02:40]And today, we're going to talk about selecting your adult breeders.

[00:02:44]>> Yep. Very important step.

[00:02:47]>> Very important step. All right, let me pop this up here.

[00:02:52]Okie dokie.

[00:02:54]So, first off, what do we consider an adult?

[00:02:59]>> I would say, and this is this leads us to point number one, we want to choose actual adults and not choose them too early because then we're getting into that juvenile thing. So, Leah, what do you consider an adult?

[00:03:12]>> Usually about 10 weeks.

[00:03:14]>> Okay, I agree. Um, I'm going to be honest. I'm a little loose in the turns with um keeping track of how old my birds are.

[00:03:27]Like actually like >> I'm not always perfect. I don't think any of us are perfect. Well, >> you know, there's those people that have like >> Yeah. like dates next to it, >> but I would say like they're they're they're close to that 10ish week area.

[00:03:43]But if I'm going to be incredibly honest, um I, you know, yes, they're going to be around 8 to 10 weeks. Um, and but I kind of do it where I, um, have them, you know, in their growout pens. And when I start seeing eggs coming out, um, and not just one, I want to see like if I've got 10 birds, you know, 10 hens in that pen, I want to see start seeing a daily, you know, eight to 10 eggs.

[00:04:10]um that's usually when I start selection.

[00:04:15]So it might be a little later than some people. Um but I there's there's we'll talk about it. There's things that you want to select. Yeah. At that time. So with some lines that might be eight weeks, with some lines that I have it might be closer to seven and some it might be closer to 10. But I I kind of want to I'm I'm just looking for them to be mature enough to be like laying at breeding age kind of thing. So >> yes, >> we want to be actual mature adults.

[00:04:46][snorts] >> And what happens? Okay, let's talk about number one there. Choosing too early.

[00:04:49]What happens if you do choose too early and you don't wait for them to be actual mature adults?

[00:04:57]So, you might make your selections incorrectly based on the fact that the the body hasn't, you know, completely matured out to what it's going to look like.

[00:05:09]>> And there are some lines, you know, not every line is the same um as far as how they grow. And we've talked a little bit about this with like our jumbo episode.

[00:05:20]You know, there are some lines that um build bone structure first and then put on muscle mass. Um there are some that put on muscle mass and bone and like are a little bit slower with feather growth.

[00:05:36]So, you know, there there and and everything in between. So, if you choose too early and maybe choose based on what a different line looks like, you may be calling out really good birds.

[00:05:49]>> Yep. It's very very possible.

[00:05:52]>> Yep. Um the other thing is that some defects might take a little while to show up.

[00:05:59]>> This is very true.

[00:06:00]>> So a bird that looked great in the beginning and you're like, "Okay, cool.

[00:06:04]I'm going to throw this in a breeder pen." And then later on you look at it, you go, "Oh my gosh, how did that how did that get in there?" [laughter] >> Right?

[00:06:12]So, >> yeah, there's some things that just aren't going to show and you're not going to know what the full muscle musculature is going to be until they're mature. Um, there's a lot of factors.

[00:06:23]>> Yep. Okay. Um, number two, not culling too hard enough or hard enough.

[00:06:31]Um, we're going to go into detail when we get to that slide, but that that's a big one. Sometimes I get a little sentimental or something. Oh, it's easy because you'll see something and you're like, "Oh, I love how that one looks." And then it's Yeah. falls apart on you, >> but you're attached. Yeah. It can be tough.

[00:06:52]>> Yep. Um, we also want to make sure we keep the big picture in mind and not get hyperfocused on, you know, a certain aspect. Um, we'll go into detail on that in a minute. And we also want to make sure that we pay attention to temperament. Um, so a no no would be not paying attention to temperament because that is super important.

[00:07:15]>> It's yeah, very important.

[00:07:16]>> So important. Okay, so I think we covered most of this. Um, but you know, choosing too early, you want to give those birds time to mature. Um, see their full growth potential. Need to see the body parts that develop at maturity.

[00:07:32]So let's talk about Leah that Leah because that's a big one that you worked on a lot with your rupanzy line, right?

[00:07:39]>> So yeah. So a lot of times, especially with the pelvic width and bone structure, that's not going to fully um you aren't really going to be able to assess it until they're at that egg laying stage.

[00:07:51]>> Mhm.

[00:07:53]>> So it's just like with humans, as as we you know, grow and when we hit maturity, those pelvic bones widen. So, >> absolutely.

[00:08:03]>> That's when you really want to, you know, get a good look at both the males and females is when they're fully mature.

[00:08:09]>> It's crazy how much at maturity they differ between males and females. If you have a good line and you've selected for that pelvic width, you could actually, without looking at anything else on the bird, feel the width of the pelvic bones and know if you're if you're holding a mature male or a mature female.

[00:08:28]>> Yeah.

[00:08:28]>> Just by that.

[00:08:30]>> Yeah. So, that's a really important to choose for. Um, if you choose too early and those bones aren't at, um, their, you know, final width, um, then you may be selecting birds that you don't want to select for, >> right? And I also I want to know, you know, around that 10 week mark, what kind of weights they're going to hit, what kind of musculature they're going to put on. I like a really like beefy chest.

[00:09:00]Yeah.

[00:09:00]>> Um, that's what I tend to go for and it doesn't really completely fill out until that they're hitting maturity.

[00:09:08]>> That's absolutely true. And, you know, along with that, we need to make sure that once you get that big beefy chest and all the other, you know, the muscle development stuff, make sure that the bird can actually fully support their body weight at maturity.

[00:09:24]>> Yes. Because sometimes, I mean, like if you think of Cornish cross chickens, they reach a certain weight and they can no longer hold their body weight up. And with so many people breeding jumbos for size, for size, for size, you know, for weight and stuff, if you um do your selection after they're fully um grown, you can make sure that they're able to support their own weight. Um, but if you do it too early, you might have birds that that can't walk.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's not good. Gonna have Yeah. difficulty or they're going to have breakdown in the joints.

[00:10:00]>> Um, there's quite a few things that can occur.

[00:10:03]>> Yep. And then, okay, I want to go back to the first point again. Um, need to see their full growth potential. Not only like how big did they grow, but who didn't grow like who was lagging behind the others? these all matured and then you have these that you know they they might mature they might reach that full growth in a couple of weeks but I don't want that. I want them all to mature at the same time.

[00:10:31]>> So pull those those those ones that are lagging.

[00:10:34]>> Yeah. I don't want to be feeding something, you know, longer than I should before it hits like coal weight if I was going to be butchering it.

[00:10:43]>> Um because that's more money out of my pocket.

[00:10:45]>> Absolutely. I want something that's going to hit weight at that, you know, 8 to 10 week mark >> and we move on.

[00:10:54]>> And if you think about it, okay, um, between large males and small males, which ones are usually more vigorous breeders?

[00:11:03]>> The small ones.

[00:11:04]>> Uhhuh. So, if you're like, "Oh, you know what? I'm just I'm going to um let these guys catch up. It'll be all right." And you leave them in there.

[00:11:15]It's those smaller guys that are going to be breeding your females.

[00:11:18]>> Yes.

[00:11:19]>> And then you eventually are going to end up with smaller and smaller groups of birds that you hatch. So that's not good either, >> right? [laughter] >> Okay. So, not pulling hard enough would be one of those things that you know what we just talked about like, oh, you know, these guys will catch up. I'm just going to leave them in there. It'll be all right. No. Call them out. Yeah.

[00:11:45]Yeah. Do the do the hard stuff in the beginning and you'll be doing less of it towards, you know, later on.

[00:11:51]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Um I know I talk about this all the time, but it's such a good example would be with my black project when I started. I kept only about every about one chick in every 100 that I hatched. That was super super hard callulling. Okay. I I was so strict, but because I put in that work in the beginning and called ruthlessly.

[00:12:16]Um, now I barely call at all and I can keep so many more birds ever from every hatch. So, right hard in the beginning.

[00:12:27]>> You see a Yeah. a big difference generation to generation by doing that.

[00:12:32]>> Yep.

[00:12:33]And I see people that um and I've I've done this too. I get attached to a bird and it may not be perfect and it may not be a good representation of what I want to breed, but I'm like, "Oh, but you're so cute or you looked at me in this cute little way." [laughter] So, we need to resist >> way of trying to do that.

[00:12:56]>> Yes, we need to resist the urge to put that in a breeding pen if it's not living up to your standards. And that's maybe why I have a couple of extra floor birds running around cuz I'm just like I can't call you and you know oh you know what just live on the floor. [laughter] >> Somebody's got to eat the scraps, right?

[00:13:20]>> Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. They they get janitor duty.

[00:13:24]>> Yep. Um, and then the other thing is is like feeling the need to fill up a cage.

[00:13:31]Like, oh, I only need one more bird to to, you know, max out what I can hold in this cage. Uh, this one's all right.

[00:13:39]Yeah. Don't do that.

[00:13:40]>> Yeah. You You'll be putting more work in in the long run.

[00:13:44]>> Yep. And feeding a bird that's just all right. We don't want to do that either, >> right?

[00:13:50]And then again, the big picture.

[00:13:52]>> Yep.

[00:13:54]Yeah, you want to be careful to to not get caught up in color. Um, or you know what, I'm going to add to that, not just color, but size. So many people are like, >> I'm just going to select the biggest birds and not look at the bigger picture of structure and temperament and all those other things, >> right? I mean, the big thing like if if you're talking about colors, the color has to be there, >> but it can be perfected later on.

[00:14:22]So, okay, I hear this line all the time.

[00:14:26]Build the barn, then paint it. And [sighs] I agree with it, but I also kind of disagree with it, too. Um, I think one of our friends, Allison, has made a really good point lately about like, no, we're we're painting it along the way.

[00:14:45]Mhm.

[00:14:46]>> Um >> well, you have to have the no matter what your color project is, you have to have the genetics there for it.

[00:14:53]>> Exactly.

[00:14:54]>> Otherwise, you you could build something, but you can't paint it later.

[00:14:58][laughter] >> Right. And you you know, you can't just completely let's say those color jeans are there, you can't completely disregard them. Um you you have to kind of look at look at it along the way when you're selecting. So, let's take your your rupanes. They have gorgeous scoloping in their um pattern.

[00:15:20]>> Yeah, that was like the final piece that I worked on.

[00:15:24]>> Um and I mean occasionally, no matter what, you're you're going to get those oneoffs, but >> Right. Um, yeah, they had a lot of like what I would call, and I don't even know if it's a technical term for it, but like bleedth through where the edging, the color would actually kind of, you know, bleed into the edging and I wanted that really crisp, clean look. Right.

[00:15:47]>> And so I would imagine in the beginning you were you were more concerned about structure and temperament and all the big things, but you were also paying attention to that that color and the pattern because right >> had you um kind of leaned into the ones that were you know bleeding through as you were talking about then it would be a whole lot harder to clean it up in the end.

[00:16:13]Oh yeah, definitely would have been um a lot lot harder. So I had to take, you know, first I usually looked at the body, you know, is the body what I need and then I would look at the pattern.

[00:16:27]Okay. Which one of you has the better pattern >> and move those ones forward?

[00:16:32]>> Yep. Yep. So, I you know, I like the idea of building the barn first and painting it later, but I really feel like you you kind of have to paint it as you go along and and pay attention.

[00:16:43]>> But I can also turn this the other direction.

[00:16:47]>> You can't paint anything if you don't have anything built.

[00:16:50]>> This is true. This is true.

[00:16:52]>> Yeah. I like the do it, you know, all together.

[00:16:56]>> Yeah. It's just it is it's a big process.

[00:16:58]>> It takes time. It does take time.

[00:17:01]>> Yeah. you really have to look at the big picture. Um, and then like last point, we just talked about call hard now so you don't have to as much later. That it's just I can't express how important that is.

[00:17:14]>> It's going to save you time and energy and Yeah.

[00:17:18]>> feed and all the things. Yep.

[00:17:21]>> Absolutely.

[00:17:23]>> Temperament.

[00:17:25]Oh gosh, this is so important.

[00:17:27]>> Yes. [laughter] Yes. And this is something you can assess as you're looking over your birds.

[00:17:34]>> I mean, this the second you're you're going to grab them out of the cage. Um, I mean, right from there, you can see, you know, they're running away from you.

[00:17:44]Are they fighting to get out of your hands? Are they allowing you to look them over? Um, >> yeah. You see their wings handle? Right.

[00:17:55]Right.

[00:17:56]um you know, how are they acting with the other birds in the cage?

[00:18:01]Um lots of factors there.

[00:18:03]>> Yep. I actually just this morning when I was doing chores, I I called a bird for aggression. Um I heard, you know, just this commotion going on and the birds were running back and forth, back and forth, back and forth in the cage. And there was one bird chasing all the others and was relentless. And I tried to distract it for a second thinking, oh, maybe it was just having a moment and oh no, no, it turned on me and cussed me out and then turned back to to chasing everybody and I went, "No, we're not doing this. I you know, you might be just having a moment, but you might be doing this all the time and stressing all of those other birds out and they don't need that."

[00:18:44]>> So, bye. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you do have to, you know, there's always the, you know, you know, give them a slight moment of grace to see if they're sick or injured or, you know, did you, do they not have enough feed or water, right?

[00:18:59]>> But otherwise, if you've eliminated those things and they're just not a very happy camper, um, it's just best to pull them out of a program.

[00:19:09]>> Absolutely. And we we do have an entire video on temperament um especially aggression um that talks about all those kind of extenduating factors because you need to make sure um that you that their environment is set up properly and that you have the right ratios and all that stuff to make sure you're not just you know callulling birds that are being birds um because of how you've set them up. But once you know, like Leah said, once you once you've got all that ironed out, um, and you just you have somebody that's just being a jerk, um, you don't need that bird anymore.

[00:19:45]>> Nope.

[00:19:46]>> No. Um, and just remember that aggression can be genetic. So, if you put up with that bird right now, then you could be passing that on to future lines, >> right?

[00:19:57]>> So, yeah, you don't want to do that.

[00:19:59]along with flightiness.

[00:20:02]Like I've heard of people that um they they won't even let their kids play outside of their um like quail barn.

[00:20:11]>> Yeah. Because it it frightens the birds so much.

[00:20:14]>> Yeah.

[00:20:15]>> And you know that can't um without them speaking and Yeah.

[00:20:22]>> No, we don't. No. I'll tell you what, >> that [laughter] >> when I go into my quail barn, I am like I'm selecting eggs for, you know, I'm packing orders and I've got my music going. We run um you know, a shop back in there. We have fans going. We have all kinds of stuff.

[00:20:38]>> They have to be able to deal with those kinds of things.

[00:20:40]>> If if they cannot um you know, they >> And do your birds have some favorite music?

[00:20:49][laughter] >> Whatever it is I want to listen to.

[00:20:51]Okay. But, you know, it was kind of cool. This morning, I had some music on and I don't even remember what I was listening to, you know, just some random stuff. And the birds, I noticed all of a sudden that they had stopped crowing and they were like cooing. It was like, you know, that um contented sound that they make where they're just kind of Yeah, they were all doing that. All of them.

[00:21:12]>> And it was like they were just feeling the moment, you know? [laughter] So, but um it's it's it's really big thing because like aggression, flightists can also >> be genetic and be bred into them and you don't want that. Um and the people that you might be selling eggs to or whatever, they don't want that either.

[00:21:35]>> Um you want to be able to work with your birds and walk around and you know, you were talking about handling. I I want to make sure people understand that these are still birds and they're still pale and they're gonna when you pick them up, they're still going to flap some and, you know, maybe try to get away. Um, that's normal. But if they don't stop and you can feel their heart just racing and they're fighting and they're struggling and they're, you know, all that stuff. Yeah. That's that's a little extreme.

[00:22:04]>> Or they're breaking a wing in your hand.

[00:22:05]>> Exactly. Yeah. You don't need that. No, >> you don't need that. it it is okay for them to throw a little fit, you know, in the beginning and and make sure you're holding them properly because that's another thing.

[00:22:16]>> Yeah, that's another thing, too. And this is where I'll I'll say it. I've said it before, but you know, I've seen pictures of people dangling their birds upside down by the legs. Um, don't do that. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um, it can >> you can hold them, you know, out and and secure the legs to get a photograph with them laying like on a surface, but do not hang them upside down.

[00:22:40]>> Yeah.

[00:22:41]>> Um, that puts pressure on their organs.

[00:22:43]They don't have a diaphragm like we do, so that could put pressure on the organs and, you know, cause them to aspirate, regurg.

[00:22:52]>> Yep. Absolutely. it can, you know, those organs kind of can squish the lungs a little bit and make it harder for them to breathe. Um, so, you know, if they're struggling while you're doing that, that's probably because they're like, [laughter] >> "Yeah."

[00:23:07]>> So, you know, I'll often take a bird if I'm if I'm assessing temperament, um, and I want to see if they're overly flighty, I'll actually just sit them on my hand and, you know, kind of stroke them a little bit. And if they're, you know, wideeyed, like struggling to get away and and flapping and stuff, then I, you know, but if they calm down, because they don't necessarily like being grabbed around the middle or their legs or >> Yeah. or held Yeah.

[00:23:32]>> Yeah. If if you can set them on a surface or set them on your hand and they calm down and then start being curious and stuff, that's different. Um, so yeah.

[00:23:43]Okay. So, let's talk about how we select our breeders.

[00:23:47]>> All right.

[00:23:48]>> Let's go head to tail. I like to go feet to head, but >> you're good. [laughter] >> Okay. Okay. Well, >> we'll do it this way, though.

[00:23:58]>> That makes sense, too. And Okay. So, let's let's get into that. Why do you go feet to head? Is there a reason?

[00:24:04]>> I like to make sure they have a solid base to work with.

[00:24:08]>> Otherwise, I don't look past it.

[00:24:10]>> Got it. Got it.

[00:24:12]Um, if I if I was going to be honest, I'd probably start with um how they feel in my hand when I pick them up.

[00:24:21]>> That that honestly is a big thing for me.

[00:24:23]>> Oh, that'll tell you a lot.

[00:24:24]>> It'll tell me so much before I even look at the bird is just how it feels in my hand. And after you've selected enough and tell me if I'm wrong, you can um almost I would say with 90% accuracy know if you're holding a male or a female before >> Yes. Just by the way it feels in your hand.

[00:24:43]>> Yes.

[00:24:45]>> Yeah. And do you find that when you're pulling birds out of a cage or a Bruder that the males are generally in the back and the females are towards the front?

[00:24:55]Like >> I think just the males are a little bit quicker.

[00:24:58]>> Yeah. I think Well, and they're like my females are like, "Hi, how are you?"

[00:25:03][laughter] And my males are usually in the back going, "Oh my gosh."

[00:25:07]So >> their time's up.

[00:25:10]>> Yep. [laughter] Um, so by the way, there is a standard of perfection um a written standard of perfection and um you can use this as a guide. It's it's what you know I use as a guide um when I'm selecting my birds um and you can get that with the um a membership with the American Kernixeders Association. So, and that's katnxbreeders.com.

[00:25:41]Okay, let's talk about the head.

[00:25:43]>> Okay, >> I'm sorry it's the next one. It's not the feet, but >> No, it's okay. I'll forgive you.

[00:25:49][laughter] >> Okay, so I start by just looking at the overall shape because >> Yeah. And I want a head that looks like it belongs on the body.

[00:25:58]>> Yes. You don't want like a little pin [laughter] head.

[00:26:02]Yes. And I've seen that before and then it looks awkward.

[00:26:05]>> Yep. Yep.

[00:26:06]>> Yeah.

[00:26:07]>> But, you know, I start with just kind of the silhouette, like you said, the overall shape, um, the size of it.

[00:26:14]>> Um, and with that, um, there's like where the beak ties into the skull. Um, you don't want it to be like a 90° angle.

[00:26:26]>> No. And I I have Yeah, I've seen that before plenty of times. And you don't want it to be like flat, >> right? You want a gentle like curve into the head.

[00:26:38]>> You want to see like there there be just at least a little bit of difference between where the beak, you know, and the head, you know, like a little bit of a curve there, but you don't want anything extreme one way or the other, >> right?

[00:26:51]>> Um, and then with the beak, the size and shape are important.

[00:26:56]>> Yes. So, we don't want overgrowth, undergrowth, um, crooked beak, um, one that's too big or too small. I've seen those.

[00:27:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't want it to look like a hawk. [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:27:12]>> Or a crow.

[00:27:13]>> Or I've seen ones that have been so short they almost make me think of like a parrot.

[00:27:18]>> Yeah.

[00:27:19]>> But >> Yeah.

[00:27:21]>> Yeah. Think about like you want a beak that is really good for the bird to be able to consume food properly. Um, and that's a big thing. If these are these birds are for production. Um, you know, they need to be able to consume enough food to have the resources to lay eggs for us and to also put on weight if we're going to harvest them. And so if their beak is too small or too curved or like crooked or any of those things, scissor beaked, um they're they're not doing that. So we need a beak that supports good eating habits.

[00:28:00]>> Yep.

[00:28:02]>> So eye shape and size. Um I you know Okay. So, as far as eye shape, I know in the SOP, um, the standard of perfection, it talks about an almond shaped eye. Um, >> but I know some people prefer the more rounded shape.

[00:28:22]>> I like a rounded eye and but I I so because I was part of like the writing of that section and we had a whole conversation. The reason why it said um almond shape versus round is we wanted to be careful that people didn't choose there there's like this defect where they have the eyeball itself >> yeah is round and like sticks out of the head and so um to to kind of steer away from any of that possibility. That's why we kind of went with the almond shape.

[00:28:56]But if you like a round eye, it's not the end of the world. And and I'm just gonna say that because I love a round eye [laughter] just that defect.

[00:29:08]>> Um and size is important. Um >> yeah, you don't want too small of eyes because usually that's that's an underlying problem.

[00:29:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm working with um a line right now again with the bulging.

[00:29:22]So >> Yes. Or sunken in. I've seen some that like is way sunken in and like the brow is overhanging where the birds like it's going to reduce their vision. You don't want that either.

[00:29:38]>> Um and you want them symmetrical. You know, you don't want a almond shaped eye on one side and a round eye on the other. Um or you know, >> I had a bird once that had one like bulgy.

[00:29:51]>> Yeah. No, we don't want that.

[00:29:52]>> It was Yeah, I Yeah, I called that thing quick. But yeah, [laughter] >> it was interesting to see though.

[00:29:59]>> Yeah. And you want them the same eye color. Like color isn't a big deal. We don't really pay attention to color as much in quail as we do in, you know, like other poultry. But I I think it would be best if they were the same color and not two different colors, you know. Just saying.

[00:30:16]>> I don't know if I've seen a different colored quail. I think it would be possible because most other animals have it. Yeah. Um >> be cool to see.

[00:30:25]>> Exactly. Uh and then you want um the bird to have a neck. [laughter] >> And there was no major defects in there either. [laughter] Yeah.

[00:30:38]>> Who's that actor? Uh uh Danny Devito.

[00:30:41]Like [laughter] >> they have a neck. Okay. [gasps] >> But maybe not. You're going to check, you know, that they don't have any irregular irregular [laughter] irregularities in that neck bone. Can't talk today.

[00:30:55]>> No rhyneck or, you know, anything like that. Nice and straight and yeah, nothing funky.

[00:31:04]All right, let's talk about the back because that is probably one of the absolute most important things.

[00:31:11]>> Yes. You don't want something that's too long or too short.

[00:31:15]>> Mhm.

[00:31:18]The slope is like a big one.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah. For me, >> absolutely.

[00:31:21]>> It's a big one.

[00:31:23]>> I like a nice gentle curve.

[00:31:26]>> Yep.

[00:31:27]>> Very gentle curve.

[00:31:29]>> Yep.

[00:31:30]>> But I don't want them to be flatbacked.

[00:31:32]I don't want a really huge curve.

[00:31:34]>> Yep. You don't want a swoop. You don't want like after the shoulders, they do get scoliosis, which is a curve in the spine. You don't want the spine to look like a river meandering through a forest. Okay. [laughter] >> Right.

[00:31:50]>> Um and while you're at it, you can feel those those hipbones sticking up um between, you know, on either side of the spine and make sure that they are like parallel to each other and not like offset or >> Yeah. If they're offset, a lot of times there's a spine issue. So, >> Exactly.

[00:32:10]>> Yeah.

[00:32:11]>> Nothing too high. um on you know like sometimes one side is higher than the other. That's not good either. Like make sure that they are symmetrical wings.

[00:32:26]>> So with the wings, you don't want them too big or too small. [laughter] You don't want them held too high or too low.

[00:32:33]>> Yep. [snorts] >> Um they need to have strength to them.

[00:32:38]>> Yep. So >> with that strength, um, like if you pull out the wing, you want them to be able to snap it back to their body. If you pull it out and they just like leave it dangling, it's that's kind of, you know, you want some like good tone, muscle tone to it and stuff. They they need to be able to use their wings, >> even though they kind of don't, but >> yeah, they're they're not that great at them, but if they were to need to Yeah.

[00:33:03]>> Yeah. I mean, we're still breeding birds, and birds have wings, and you know, unless you're breeding emus, [laughter] the little tiny dinosaur wings. Um, yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Um, and check for defects.

[00:33:21]I've actually had a bird that was hatched with only half wings. Like, literally like the second half of the wing on both sides was gone. I've seen Well, I've seen it on one-sided, but and and two I've seen where they can be doublejinted.

[00:33:38]>> I haven't seen that one.

[00:33:40]>> Yes. Like um like the [clears throat] bone didn't fully form. It formed into two bones instead.

[00:33:46]>> Whoa.

[00:33:46]>> Yeah. But it makes for a very weak wing.

[00:33:49]>> That's crazy. Um so in this picture, it shows a bird and the wings are uh the wing tip is past the back. You don't want that. And usually it's not necessarily a sign of poor wing structure. It's poor back structure because that back is curved so much that the wing is like going past it. So that's something to, you know, to keep an eye on.

[00:34:18]Tails, this is a big one. You have a story about helping somebody with a tail issue, don't you?

[00:34:24]>> Um, actually, yes, because it was causing fertility issues.

[00:34:28]So if if you pick birds that have that very you know curved basically end of the spine where you know >> just like in this picture [snorts] >> Yeah. Um it's curving downward. It's if you think about the boy getting up there and trying to get his business done.

[00:34:46]It's it's not as easy to do. So um with that >> Y kind of tucked up under her.

[00:34:54]>> Yeah. And it kind of shortens the body some. So, you know, it's it's not giving a full um space for those internal organs and easy passage of eggs and, you know, defecation and all of those things.

[00:35:10]>> Absolutely. Um so, a lot of times people will actually select birds based on, you know, they'll pick it up and go, "Oh, wow. What a meaty breast. This this bird is like, man, it's so so meaty." But it's actually all the stuff in the back end has been pushed forward because of the curve of the the tail of that, you know, the end of the spine and um it's not actually a meaty bird. It's just a compacted bird. So, >> right, >> we don't want that either.

[00:35:43]>> Um and you know, while you're at it and you're back there, you you know, you're checking those pelvic bones and the the width of the pelvic opening. Um, and it's not just how far apart the bones are, but making sure that they're not like curved inward or outward or like too thin or like super thick. So, those are all important.

[00:36:09]Legs, we're finally closing where I start. [laughter] >> Well, you know what? We can just play this backwards.

[00:36:19]>> It's okay. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> So, like when I first get a bird out, I I set it down.

[00:36:26]>> Yep.

[00:36:27]>> Because I want to watch its movements. I want to look at how the feet sit, how the legs sit. Um that they're strong bone to hold that bird up cuz I believe the base, I know we talk about like build the house and paint it, but I think you need the foundation first before you build on top.

[00:36:45]>> Sure.

[00:36:46]>> That's just my take on it.

[00:36:48]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, what all are you looking for?

[00:36:53]>> So, I want um nice thick bone structure.

[00:36:56]I want um legs that aren't like the knees aren't in or out. Um that they can easily move, that they're not struggling to get around with their weight. Um they have nice strong feet. Um no curved, you know, toes. Um no joint issues.

[00:37:19]Quite a few things I'm looking for there.

[00:37:21]>> Absolutely. And this bird in the picture is, you know, just like its hawks are nearly touching. [laughter] >> Yeah. Knock need for sure.

[00:37:31]>> Yeah. You definitely don't want that. Um >> it looks like he's going to trip over his own feet.

[00:37:36]>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He he looks like me on a regular Tuesday, you know, [laughter] just like so clumsy sometimes. Um, so and you're also looking at the length. I've seen some birds with like kind of shorter legs. Um, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's not going to hold this bird up." But also, you don't want them to look like a stork.

[00:38:01]>> So, >> yes, >> um, you don't see a huge variation with that, but if you do see something that is outside of normal, you probably don't want to breed that into your line, >> right?

[00:38:12]>> So, and then the strength is really a big one. You want nice sturdy legs. You don't want um [laughter] >> they're going to be carrying the bird around for its lifetime. So >> yeah, you don't want those chopstick legs like Susanna says. [laughter] >> And this too, sometimes just by looking at the legs, you can get an idea on the pelvic width.

[00:38:35]>> Oh, absolutely.

[00:38:37]Yeah. This bird right here, I would say probably doesn't have really great pelvic width. [laughter] >> Probably not.

[00:38:45]All right, feets. Here you go.

[00:38:48]>> Feets. Again, I want nice strong feet.

[00:38:51]Um, no curled toes, no injuries, no arthritic type issues.

[00:39:00]Um, they need to be strong.

[00:39:02]>> Yep. And large. You don't want tiny feet on a jumbo bird, you know? Yeah, it's it's got to be able to dis displace that weight amongst really nice big toes and not like be up on little feets.

[00:39:16]>> Yeah. If you have like, you know, this that's where you'll see bumble foot and other foot injuries is if you have a bird set up on a base that's not handling the weight of the bird >> um and they're walking incorrectly.

[00:39:29]That's how you know some of those injuries occur.

[00:39:32]>> Yep. And along with that, you you do want to look for injuries because um if you are selecting birds for breeding and they already have some sort of foot injury, generally that's not going to end well. You're going to have birds that are that could get really moody because they don't feel good because their feet hurt.

[00:39:53]um they are going to be more likely to lay around and not necessarily be breeding or eating, doing the things that they need to do to be productive, >> right?

[00:40:04]>> Um and along with that, you could you could have a bird that um if it's got an an injury that could turn into an infection, you know, as Leah mentioned, bumblefoot um and you know, could debilitate that bird. Um, so you really want to look for any kind of issues before you choose them as a breeder.

[00:40:28]>> And I will mention here too that some callousing can be normal.

[00:40:32]>> So, um, you know, that's just that, you know, rough growth on the foot as long as it's not, you know, looking like a scab. But the callousing, I mean, us as humans get it, too. It's just, you know, wear and tear on the feet. That's normal.

[00:40:49]Absolutely.

[00:40:52]All right. So, we're kind of working our way around the bird [laughter] clockwise. Uh breast, that's that's important as well. These are production birds and a lot of people raise them for meat.

[00:41:04]>> Um and even if it's for eggs, you really need to pay attention to the breast bone as well.

[00:41:09]>> Yes. And you want to fill the full length of it, too.

[00:41:13]>> Um you want to make sure that it's straight, not crooked. Um there's no major curves to it.

[00:41:20]>> Um any major curvature can um you know cause issues with the internal organs.

[00:41:27]>> Um >> yeah. So you don't want it like V-shaped. You want it have a nice look to it.

[00:41:32]>> Yeah. Pinched or pigeon breasted type um of chest. And then again this is why I like to you know assess them close to the 10 week mark is I want to feel how plump that breast is going to be.

[00:41:46]>> Yes.

[00:41:47]Yes. I don't want any kind of I don't want that breast bone to be like when I pick up the bird and I put my fingers underneath the bird, I don't want it to be poking me. I want to feel meat on either side of it.

[00:41:59]>> Yes. Yes. Because that that's where a good chunk of your meat's going to be.

[00:42:02]>> Yeah.

[00:42:03]>> And so I want a bird that's that's going to have a nice full meaty breast. Mhm.

[00:42:08]And this is where you can you can often tell like a skinny bird, you know, if if something is just not making weight and and is lagging behind, is skinny, is maybe not healthy, that's a good time to just go ahead and, you know, remove that. Um, but on the flip side, and this is kind of why I do the tail first before I do the breast, while we're feeling for a nice meaty bird, we don't want that to be artificial because the tail was too curved and pushed everything forward.

[00:42:38]>> Yes.

[00:42:39]>> So, you know, everything is is is that big picture that we talked about before.

[00:42:43]We need balance.

[00:42:46]>> And no bird's going to be completely perfect.

[00:42:49]>> No. Oh, absolutely not. You want to, you know, pick the best attributes as you can as you build your program.

[00:42:55]>> They're all a work in progress.

[00:42:59]All right, this bird is giving some serious side eye. [laughter] It's like the perfect picture for this.

[00:43:08]Um, you know, we talked about this before, temperament while you're selecting, you know, your breeders. Um, so you know, Leah, how do when you are doing your selection, what are you looking for? Um, you know, in the temperament.

[00:43:24]>> So, I want a bird that's going to allow me to handle it. Yes, of course, you know, they they might struggle some when I first get them out, but I want them to be able to let me assess them. Mhm.

[00:43:34]>> Um and also usually once they kind of get over the oh she picked me up kind of moment um that you know they're curious about what's going on and not just trying to get away. Um and that they're nice to the other birds. They need to be nice to everybody. Yep.

[00:43:52]>> Yep. And along with that, sometimes people mistake birds for like, you know, that are like, "Oh, he's so sweet. Look how calm he is." is when it's actually like a bird that doesn't feel well.

[00:44:06]>> So being overly calm and sweet may actually be a sign that >> you'll notice if if they're not feeling well, they might be, you know, favoring a certain area of the body. They might be a little bit puffed up.

[00:44:22]>> Um, you know, generally, you know, their eyes might not be open and bright. There's usually kind of things that they'll kind of show you that they're not feeling well without fully showing you.

[00:44:34]>> Absolutely. So, we don't want to mistake, you know, lack of being, you know, vibrant and running around um for being, you know, like super calm, >> you know, it it we want to make sure they're healthy.

[00:44:50]>> Yep.

[00:44:51]>> Yep. Um, and any of these things, being a bully, being overly flighty, being too listless, can all decrease production and may increase mortality. So, you know, if you have a bully that is constantly going around and pecking everybody in the head um eventually that that could cause birds to not be alive.

[00:45:14]So, yep, we don't want that.

[00:45:16]>> No.

[00:45:19]size and weight. [sighs] >> And we did just do the um episode on building a line.

[00:45:26]>> Yep.

[00:45:26]>> So, we go over that there as well. But um size is not everything.

[00:45:31]>> It's not. It's not. And and it's definitely important for a good jumbo line or a good banttom line or even if you're trying to keep a good standard line. Um, it's something that you want to pay attention to while you're selecting, but you don't want to compromise on on confirmation or temperament or any of those other things that we mentioned just because the bird is like bigger.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah. You don't want to pick, you know, the one pound bird over the 15 bird because it's, you know, an ounce bigger, but it has horrible structure.

[00:46:06]>> Yeah. Whereas the 15 ounce one's got great structure. That's the one I'm going to go for every time.

[00:46:13]>> Exactly. Exactly. Um and and you know, the same goes true for you know, I know that there's not a whole lot of people breeding banttoms. Um but a lot of people think that like your failure to thrive runty chick is a banttom and that's just >> that's not it. [laughter] >> No. No. And you don't want to breed that going, "Oh, I think I'm gonna start a banttom line." Um, when I created my banttom line, I was looking for smaller than average birds that were still vigorous and healthy. So, I didn't look and go, "Oh, that bird barely made it.

[00:46:48][laughter] I'm gonna >> right."

[00:46:52]>> So, that's also something if you're if you're looking to, you know, you can breed in all different directions as far as size and weight, but you need to do it out of healthy birds that you're paying attention to all the other important factors. Yep.

[00:47:07]and production. Okay, that's super important.

[00:47:11]>> Yes. Um yeah, it it can put a huge impact on your program. Um yeah, never keep like those failure to thrive, those ones that just take forever to mature.

[00:47:24]>> Yep.

[00:47:25]>> Um you know, when we're going selecting through like if if they're not ready to be assessed when everybody else is.

[00:47:33]>> Exactly. that they go.

[00:47:35]>> And that's something, you know, when I was talking earlier about how I kind of wait until they start laying eggs and then I look at them. So, let's say if 90% of my birds are able to be sexed, I can pick them up and go, "Yep, you're a hen. You're a rooster." But I've got some that are like, "You still can't tell." If all of the ones that they hatched with, you can already tell. I am not keeping those ones that haven't matured yet, >> right? It's, you know, too slow. Nope.

[00:48:05]Don't want that. So, [laughter] >> right. You >> and and they don't have to like you don't necessarily want to be breeding for a bird like a jumbo bird be laying eggs at five weeks. you you want to give them time to mature, but if you're average, if everybody else is is laying and then you have these standouts, you know, these ones off the side that aren't yet, no, we don't want we don't want to push our production further away like that, >> right? [clears throat] And so there may be times if you have the space and the inclination to separate your birds individual cages to look at their egg production. Um >> so I did this with my solidon lines um when I was working on a very specific thing um a very particular line. I would take each bird and put them in, you know, I have the like these GQF cages that have, you know, small little compartments and they all got their own little compartment and I would check and see the quality of that celadon egg coming out because I was producing quite a few of them and there were it was early on in the building of this line and I didn't want to keep a whole bunch of birds and feed a bunch of birds that weren't producing good eggs cuz >> Yeah, definitely.

[00:49:29]>> Yeah. you know, I was having all kinds of issues with >> you you'll always have those outliers.

[00:49:34]They're either going to be a little too big or too small or, you know, poor eggs to shell quality. So, >> and sometimes they'll fix themselves if they're, you know, a new laying hen and it's >> Oh, sure. Yeah, totally.

[00:49:45]>> Fixing the kinks, but if it's been a few weeks of them producing, they should usually have the kinks kind of worked out by then.

[00:49:54]>> Exactly. I'm so glad that you mentioned that because that totally like I didn't even think about that. But that's true.

[00:49:59]I did leave them in those pens for a period of weeks to make sure that you know once they matured and their egg tract, you know, was was fully mature.

[00:50:10]Um that they, you know, cuz they do they can have like oddities and weird stuff when they first start laying. Um but um that helped me because I wanted to create a really good seladon line and you know in the beginning of building a new line you might have a lot of issues with especially with celadon eggs. So no sense in keeping those other birds around if I don't need them.

[00:50:35]>> Right.

[00:50:36]>> So but that also takes a lot of work, a lot of extra pens, a lot of you know space, all that stuff.

[00:50:41]>> It does that. Yeah. If if you got if you're able to do it and want to do it, it's it's a cool thing to do.

[00:50:49]>> Yeah. Or you can put them in a pen and select the best eggs later on. So, [laughter] you can do that, too. It's okay. Um All right. Color kind of put this last.

[00:51:01]>> Yes. Yes. Um Yeah. Again, um it's the last on the list because it doesn't generally generally speaking unless it's genetic thing have to, you know, it doesn't usually affect structure. It doesn't usually affect health.

[00:51:18]>> Um unless it's one of the, you know, lethal genes and things like that, which we get into in genetics episodes. But um yeah, you need the paint, but you want to build the structure as you go.

[00:51:34]>> Yep. You definitely need to have those jeans present that you want to work with. Um but you can you can perfect that pattern later. You can select for a darker black on on birds later. You know, there's there's, you know, but you really got to have all those other ingredients first.

[00:51:54]Um, but as we talked about, we still have to pay attention to >> you can make a beautifully colored bird, but if if it's not doesn't have all the other qualities that you know make it a nice quail, then is is it really >> is it really worth it?

[00:52:09]>> Yep, absolutely.

[00:52:12]Okay, so let's talk about our key takeaways. Let's go over, you know, kind of the stuff that we've talked about here. Um, Leah, do you want to start?

[00:52:23]Which side do I start on?

[00:52:24]>> Oh, whatever. Just pick one. It don't matter. We can pop all around. We There's no rules here. [laughter] >> Select the best and start from the beginning. That's going to save you a lot of time in the long run. So, you know that they're vibrant, they're curious, they've got good temperament, good um, you know, structure.

[00:52:47]>> Yeah. Yep. It'll save you a lot of time and money.

[00:52:51]>> Yep. Um, okay. I'm gonna choose oddities. [laughter] We didn't talk about Yes. I I love Oddities. Okay. Um I >> the Oddities show.

[00:53:02]>> Oh man, we need to do that. Um and we didn't really talk about it a whole lot in this show, but if something pops up that is abnormal, that is um outside of your standard that you're looking for, um you know, you can do cool things with that, but you don't want to do it within the line that you're working on. pull it aside and you know study it or see where you can go with it by it you know like in a different line create something do something test it >> if you don't keep it but keep note of it because if it pops up again >> yes >> in the same line of birds there might be something there to watch out for >> absolutely so you know you can you can do projects and you can study things and I am all for that every day [laughter] all day just like don't put that in your main line. Pull anything out that it's an oddity.

[00:53:53]>> Yep.

[00:53:53]>> Yep.

[00:53:56]>> Call the defects.

[00:53:58]>> Yep.

[00:53:59]>> That's just plain and simple. Just if it's not supposed to be there, get rid of it.

[00:54:05]>> Absolutely. And you know, okay, so yeah, I always like to be devil's advocate.

[00:54:10]There there are times where you're starting with birds that no matter what bird you look at, it's just not, you know, it's not going to be perfect. Um, and so sometimes you have to go, okay, there are defects that I'm just not going to stand for. And we talk about this in our episode on creating a line.

[00:54:29]Um, there are some things that I am not.

[00:54:31]It is do not pass go. Do not collect $200. I am not going to allow this bird to procreate. And then there's some things where you're like, "Okay, I can work on that later."

[00:54:42]>> Yep.

[00:54:42]>> You know, you can work on the shape of a beak. Um, >> yes. If a beak is a little too short, a little too long, that's fine. I can work on that later. I don't want anything extreme. Okay. I I don't need a hummingbird. [laughter] >> Right.

[00:54:57]>> But, you know, I will take that over a bird that has a roach back.

[00:55:02]>> Yes.

[00:55:03]>> There are just some things I'm not going to allow because woo, roach back is hard to fix later.

[00:55:09]>> It's Yeah, it is very hard.

[00:55:11]>> So, you know, sometimes you just have to work with what you've got.

[00:55:17]Okay. Failure to thrive.

[00:55:20]Don't baby those laggers. Don't Don't give them extra vitamins. Don't give them extra treats. Don't, you know, put them in their separate reason.

[00:55:29]>> Yeah. There's something going on. You do not want that whatever that is that's causing them to lag um and not keep up with their siblings. um you don't want to, you know, move that forward with your breeders and create more of those.

[00:55:47]So, >> y >> put them aside, make them layers for your family or something or harvest them, but don't don't breed them, >> right? Call hard. You're only as good as what you allow.

[00:56:00]>> Yep.

[00:56:02]Yep.

[00:56:03]um you know, make sure that you just don't um go, "Oh, but you're cute."

[00:56:11][laughter] >> Or just >> if you have that moment, then they're then they're a barn bird. [snorts] >> Yeah. Yeah. And make sure that you keep your eye on the big picture from from egg to adult. Start with those eggs.

[00:56:26]>> Yep.

[00:56:26]>> Make sure that you're selecting good.

[00:56:27]Make sure you go back and watch our videos on eggs, chicks, and juveniles to make sure that you're starting from the beginning and not just, you know, with adult birds.

[00:56:36]>> Yeah.

[00:56:40]>> And then our final thoughts, and this kind of goes back to that comment that I was making before with your birds, you're not necessarily going to be starting with perfect birds.

[00:56:51]>> Now, it does help to buy from a good breeder that has already done a lot of this work for you.

[00:56:57]um and starting with the best quality that you can start with. But if you don't, um you know, I happened to when I first started in quail, I just kind of bought from willy-nilly with whoever had good pictures and stuff and I didn't really know anything about what to look for and I put them all in one cage and I had genetic soup and I started with that and I turned them into something really good. Um, you can save yourself a lot of time and feed by starting with better birds.

[00:57:30]>> Yeah. Um, I mean, my my first batch was similar. So, >> yeah. I started over though. I got better birds.

[00:57:38]>> Exactly. Yeah. There are just some that you're just like, "Okay, you know what?

[00:57:41]Never mind. It's not worth it.

[00:57:42][laughter] I'm >> scratch this."

[00:57:46]But sometimes the challenge is what makes you a good breeder. Sometimes >> it is. And yeah, creating new things, too, because you could take two great lines and put them together and they just don't work. [laughter] >> Exactly. Exactly.

[00:58:06]>> Okay. So, that is a little bit of insight on how we select our breeders.

[00:58:17]>> Yes. Um, [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And this is a little insight on two chicks and how, [laughter] you know, it's really great. You know, Leah and I are really, really good friends and we are, you know, very often on the same page um when it comes to everything. Um, you know, [laughter] >> we we agree. Yeah. And we can play devil's advocate with each other all the time, too.

[00:58:48]>> All the time. I love [snorts] it. I love it. Um but uh yeah, so I I [laughter] sometimes you see a real moment where we're just like, you know, we we kind of skip a beat or just a second >> a squirrel. Sorry.

[00:59:03]>> Yeah, just a second. If you guys heard it in the background, Alexa just like in the middle of, you know, us filming just decided to turn on and start talking, [laughter] give us advice on something.

[00:59:14]I don't even know what she It was like gosh, this is this is real life. Maybe we should have her listened to what she was saying.

[00:59:21]>> Maybe. Maybe we'll just let her run the show. But um Leah, do we have a coupon code?

[00:59:28]>> We sure [laughter] do.

[00:59:30]It's selection 10. It's good for 10% off both of our sites. Yep.

[00:59:35]>> And if you guys enjoyed this episode, make sure to share it with a friend.

[00:59:40][laughter] >> And always like and subscribe. That really is is helpful for us.

[00:59:44]>> It helps us a lot. It helps us reach more people. It makes us feel good, too, you know.

[00:59:50]>> All right. Well, thank you all for joining us.

[00:59:53]>> Have a great night.

[00:59:55]>> Bye >> bye.

[00:59:59]>> Want to continue the conversation and get more education? Come join us over on the Katernix Corner Facebook page and also check out Terry on the Kernix Corner YouTube channel.

[01:00:14]>> [music] [music]