(Carr Family Interview) Programmed To Kill/Satanic Cover Up Part 465

Añadido: 2026-05-19

[00:00:02]October 29th, 1979, 2:20 in the afternoon. We're at 316 Warbertton Avenue, Yoners, New York.

[00:00:12]Present at this time is myself, assistant, District Attorney, Herbert Lifer. George, >> Detective investigator, George Bird, Shield number 901 from DA's office.

[00:00:21]>> We car want to identify yourself.

[00:00:25]>> Yeah. Louis Ecker, B C E R. and your counsel for the car family. And Mrs. Car, >> Samuel Carr, >> we are present here with regard to an investigation involving uh David Perkowitz, John Carr.

[00:00:53]The purpose is to elicit information with regard to the above named individuals.

[00:01:04]We have previously spoken to wheat car and uh there were some additional questions that we had with regard to an incident which occurred in North Dakota.

[00:01:15]Now, we when we had spoken to you on Friday, you had said to us that uh you had not spoken to anyone in North Dakota since approximately October 5th of this year. Is that correct?

[00:01:28]>> No, I said it was October 12th. October 12th, the >> day the stuff came out.

[00:01:32]>> Okay.

[00:01:34]Now, uh we had representatives in May, North Dakota as recently as uh this past Saturday who interviewed Linda Okconor.

[00:01:46]>> Linda Okconor indicated to our investigators that they had had an hour and a half phone conversation with you uh as recently as uh Wednesday of last week.

[00:02:00]>> I have been trying to locate Linda.

[00:02:04]>> Have you spoken to anyone in Min, North Dakota between uh last week at all?

[00:02:08]>> I spoke to Craig, her ex-husband, I guess he is, trying to locate them.

[00:02:14]I don't really >> Was that last week?

[00:02:17]>> It may have been.

[00:02:19]>> And did you have any conversations with uh Craig or uh any representative of the Minot newspaper with regard to our investigators in North Dakota?

[00:02:28]>> No one in the Minot newspapers.

[00:02:30]Definitely not. And with Craig, the only thing I I did ask Craig, I said, "Do you believe this stuff?" And he said, "No."

[00:02:37]>> Was Was that possibly last week?

[00:02:41]>> Do you know when I called? the matter of that >> cuz I had been trying to get a hold of her. We had a number that was incorrect and then I'd had some difficulty trying to get it because the name I remembered was Connor, not Okconor. So exactly when I spoke to Craig, I honestly don't remember.

[00:02:56]>> Did you speak to Terry Gardner at all last week?

[00:02:58]>> Uh, no I did not.

[00:03:07]Now, your brother Michael was killed in the automobile accident, >> right?

[00:03:12]>> Now, was Michael a a member of the Church of Scientology?

[00:03:17]>> Yes, he was.

[00:03:20]>> And could you just give us a little how long he's he was with the church or Mrs. Carr or Mr. Carr?

[00:03:28]>> Four or five years. Yeah, for four to five years.

[00:03:31]>> I see. And uh we also understand at one time he worked in Phoenix House in New York.

[00:03:39]>> Michael worked in Phoenix House.

[00:03:40]>> If he did, I've never heard about it.

[00:03:44]>> No connection at all with Phoenix House.

[00:03:46]>> No. Michael's only jobs that I know of in New York City were connected with professional photography, commercial photography.

[00:03:53]>> Mhm. the closest very the closest name to Phoenix House is he worked for Tony Petraelli >> and that was at the time that he first started >> photographer yeah Tony Petraelli is a commercial photographer >> and that was at the time that he did do you know whether he ever worked at the Phoenix >> I never heard of such a thing I don't see how he had time >> okay I never heard >> never did any counseling through the church of Scientology uh at the Phoenix house which is a drug rehabilitation Normally the Scientologists do not work outside of their own building.

[00:04:29]>> I see.

[00:04:30]>> That's my understanding. Anyhow, >> do you know the location of the uh Scientology church that he was affiliated with?

[00:04:37]>> It's a mission on 6th Avenue at 10th Street.

[00:04:43]>> You would also mention that um you recall John mentioning to you the name of a friend of his who lived on Long Island, somebody he going to school with.

[00:04:53]Steve something or other. Do you have anything back?

[00:04:55]>> No, I didn't say Steve. I said the only Steve that I knew of, >> right, >> was a Steve that he went to high school with who I had no idea what happened to him. I believe that he was killed in the service, but I don't know that to be a fact.

[00:05:10]>> Cuz you had mentioned something about a broker living on Long Island.

[00:05:14]>> That's just another name. That's not his name at all.

[00:05:17]>> Do you remember his name?

[00:05:18]>> Yeah, his name is Larry Belo.

[00:05:20]>> Larry Belo.

[00:05:25]I said that he was the only other person I could think of that John had visited during the times that he was here in the last 3 4 years. You >> have any idea where on Long Island he lived >> or the spelling of his name?

[00:05:52]I have 34 Chuck Boulevard, North Babylon and it's B I L E L L O and his first name is Lawrence and very very close friend of John.

[00:06:04]>> Mr. Cory, there was a blue Mercury Montego that John came down from North Dakota in >> right >> that I understand was parked here for a long time until it was very recently sold.

[00:06:14]>> That's right.

[00:06:15]>> Do you recall what kind of license plates were on that car?

[00:06:17]>> North Dakota. You know whatever happened to them?

[00:06:20]>> I have them.

[00:06:21]>> You have them? Uh, could we have the license plate number?

[00:06:33]>> I'll be a few minutes cuz I had >> Hello. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:06:43]Daddy is picking you up from school. You wait for your sister.

[00:06:47]All right. I'm going to be tied up.

[00:06:49]Daddy, remind Daddy. Kim has to see Melton.

[00:06:54]No, I just am not going to be able to pick her up and I don't want her panicking.

[00:07:00]Yes. I want you to go to her class, hustle her out of there, get her outside, get in the car with daddy, and go to Dr. Milton.

[00:07:06]It's 3:52.

[00:07:09]No. Across the hall, Mr. Edinger.

[00:07:12]Right. Right. Her locker is the same locker she had before. Bye.

[00:07:20]>> When John came back from North Dakota in January of 78, we were advised that he had a gun with him, a 44 caliber Colt pistol. Was that ever found in the automobile or any papers regarding that in the automobile?

[00:07:38]>> No.

[00:07:39]>> I'm not aware any if he had gun. I kind of >> what kind it was. The only gun I know about him having was a pistol, 22, air pistol, I believe. I could be wrong, but it was 22. And he had that in North Dakota. And his van was burglarized somewhere along the lines somewhere out there in his apartment or something.

[00:08:04]>> The van was before this. He's talking about when he came back.

[00:08:07]>> Yeah, I know. But I'm saying this is the only gun I have any knowledge of John having.

[00:08:13]>> The automobile. You have the plates there.

[00:08:15]>> 462 653.

[00:08:20]Expiration date 33178.

[00:08:25]Tag number 565781.

[00:08:30]>> Do you want to say the plate number again, Daddy?

[00:08:33]>> Right.

[00:08:34]>> The plate number again, please.

[00:08:35]>> 462 653.

[00:08:39]>> And that's North Dakota, >> right?

[00:08:47]Was that car registered? John, do you know?

[00:08:50]>> Yes.

[00:08:51]>> Was registered?

[00:08:54]>> Did you have a copy of the registration?

[00:08:56]Did you have when you sold the car?

[00:08:58]>> Yes.

[00:08:59]>> Was it a John C car?

[00:09:01]>> That's right.

[00:09:03]>> You did?

[00:09:04]>> Yeah. cuz I got a I had a >> Are you asking whether he had the registration, the original registration?

[00:09:13]Because the police had his wallet, but they have never returned.

[00:09:16]>> No, I had a reg There was a registration in the car.

[00:09:20]>> Okay.

[00:09:23]>> Do you recall what address was on the registration?

[00:09:29]>> It was a a house in town. I don't know. I don't recall.

[00:09:36]There was a title on that car, too. And I had to send to North Dakota and I got a copy of the title and I had it changed over from his name. I sent the cop that certificate and they sent me a copy of the title changing it over where I could sell that car.

[00:09:56]>> Who' you sell the car to?

[00:09:59]>> Color family down here on Thank you. Woodworth Avenue. I don't recall the name a copy of the title.

[00:10:16]I had I went out with them because they to the motor vehicle bureau and I showed them all the papers I had with the authorization from the state of North Dakota and they accepted that when I sold the car.

[00:10:34]>> Now before you sold the car, did you go through it completely to see whether there was anything in it? Any of John's personal effects, any papers that he had? no papers except uh copying the a sheet uh registration from North Dakota.

[00:10:54]Do you have any pictures of of John? We had seen some when we had showed us some pictures of John, but they were very small snapshots. Do you have any pictures of John standing up?

[00:11:05]>> No, I don't think so.

[00:11:11]Not standing not full not full on length >> or full face pictures >> other than high school I don't believe other than snapshots and this high school picture I think is the only one I know where it is.

[00:11:29]>> Wait, you' mentioned that you had some samples of John's writing a letter that he written to you. Do you have that? I have a letter he wrote from boot camp someplace my keys.

[00:12:01]What was the name of the uh doctor who treated Harvey Doyle?

[00:12:07]>> The uh chief at the New York Animal Hospital Medical Center.

[00:12:13]>> I don't recall his name. We might recall his name.

[00:12:17]>> You know where you don't have to have the address of the uh hospital?

[00:12:21]>> 62nd Street East River Drive.

[00:12:33]And the bullet is still in in Harvey.

[00:12:36]>> That is correct.

[00:12:40]>> Very close to the heart. That's the reason we will not have it removed because of the it could kill.

[00:12:47]>> Ask you whether it was still there, Sam.

[00:12:49]All he asked you was whether it's still.

[00:12:50]>> Well, I'm giving them a reason why it is still there. Okay. It is still there.

[00:12:58]When John used to come back on leaves from North Dakota or from any other military leaves, he was in the service about 11 years. Did he have any close friends in town >> here?

[00:13:08]>> Here in Yoners, >> the young man he grew up went to school with. He went to school here through the 12th grade.

[00:13:16]>> No, I know. But were there any close friends that he visited with when he came home on leave? I see.

[00:13:25]something he wrote camp.

[00:13:27]>> The only friend he is Larry Bela that we mentioned and Richard Folk.

[00:13:32]>> Richard Folk.

[00:13:33]>> Mhm.

[00:13:33]>> Is he does he still live in town?

[00:13:35]>> He lives in this area. He lives in Westchester.

[00:13:38]>> Was that F O L K?

[00:13:39]>> No, it's F C HT.

[00:13:45]>> And Richard?

[00:13:46]>> Yes.

[00:13:47]And they went to school from the time they were in kindergarten.

[00:13:52]And uh any recent address?

[00:13:56]>> No, I don't I don't >> There's somewhere here in Westchester County.

[00:13:59]>> Yes, he lives in Westchester.

[00:14:05]>> He finds us more often than we find him.

[00:14:07]>> Right.

[00:14:09]>> Mr. Carr, had you ever seen David Burks around the neighborhood?

[00:14:12]>> No.

[00:14:14]>> How about you, Mr. Carr?

[00:14:15]>> Nothing.

[00:14:17]>> And we The only time you saw him was when he was with Freddy in the car that day. One day >> since this incident, have you ever had an occasion to speak to Freddy about it per weeks?

[00:14:31]>> No, I haven't seen him since June 77.

[00:14:37]>> When did that incident happen with that?

[00:14:39]You believe Freddy was involved with your two dogs at the construction place?

[00:14:43]That was in um early in the year. It was before Harvey was shot. So it was early in the year.

[00:14:53]>> And what year was that?

[00:14:54]>> 77.

[00:14:55]>> Early 77.

[00:14:56]>> That's correct.

[00:14:58]>> And that was never that incident was never reported to the police or anybody?

[00:15:01]>> No. Well, started to make a report and they said, "Well, too many people had access cuz there were five keys." So they Well, forget it. It's just a dog.

[00:15:10]Same thing they said when Harvey was shot. It's really just a dog.

[00:15:15]>> And who was the U gentleman that you were in the construction business with at that point?

[00:15:20]>> His name is Jim Faulner.

[00:15:21]>> Jim Faulner. Is he still around town?

[00:15:24]>> He's not here. He's uh now remarried in lives in New Relle. I don't know where because he's married to a very jealous girl.

[00:15:34]>> Okay. He is very honestly former New York City cop. Was suspended, finally thrown off the job because of an incident that occurred off duty 5 years before I knew him. So you're going to check him. That's going to come out. I'd rather tell you than have somebody else.

[00:15:55]Now, we we were told that at one time while you were working for the PD in Yoners, you had made a request for about a thousand rounds of reloads.

[00:16:06]>> What?

[00:16:07]>> For ammunition for 44 caliber, 38 caliber, 357 Magnum, and 22 caliber.

[00:16:15]>> 44 caliber.

[00:16:16]>> Yeah, >> that's somebody's imagination working overtime. I do own a 357 Magnet. I do own a 25 automatic and uh just >> we have several other handguns which I do go regularly and shoot and the reason I would I may have asked somebody about the price of reloads. That's very possible. They're the cheapest thing to shoot at a target with, but never 44s, but I have no use for them.

[00:16:48]>> Now, you say you do have a number of guns. Are yours or or your husband's or >> uh they are mine? They are. Yeah, they're mine. They're registered to me and or my father. Some of the ones on my permit are registered are his. It's not mine, but they're on both permits.

[00:17:06]>> Do you have your permit with you or available?

[00:17:10]>> Not really. I I don't even know where it is. It's been so long since I carried it then. Carried gone or carried the permit? I don't know where it is right now. Was it a regular carry permit?

[00:17:20]>> It was a limited carry current employment only restriction and it has to do with the fact that I do transport large sums of money in connection with this business. So the current employment had to do with the answer service got the permit prior to being involved being employed by the police >> and it was issued in the name of wheat car >> wheat Michael car.

[00:17:45]>> And Mr. Carr, do you also have a permit?

[00:17:48]Mhm.

[00:17:48]>> And you have it with you also.

[00:17:51]>> Could we have the number on it, please?

[00:17:54]>> Let me see it.

[00:18:20]How long you've been lic 21 when I got it? I think I was only just 21 22. I'm not even sure the original date, but I was not, you know, that's about how old I was in my early 20s.

[00:18:37]>> Level 29 weapons. Yeah.

[00:18:41]>> Some of them are mine, though.

[00:18:43]>> Some are hers.

[00:18:45]>> Do you shoot regularly at range?

[00:18:47]>> I haven't in quite a long time.

[00:18:49]>> Where did you shoot when you >> uh the police pistol range in Elmsford, parts of that? Westchester County pistol and rifle, I believe, is the correct name.

[00:19:07]Mr. car. How long were you uh licensed to carry a weapon?

[00:19:12]>> It should say on permit.

[00:19:14]>> No, that's the that's the replacement.

[00:19:17]The original permit.

[00:19:21]>> Can I ask you a question before we go on?

[00:19:23]>> Sure. Uh I'm getting a feeling from the tone of these questions that >> they're making me uncomfortable.

[00:19:29]>> Yeah.

[00:19:32]>> Are these people the targets of any investigation? Are they suspects or No.

[00:19:38]The only reason the question about the guns came to light was that weed herself had mentioned to us on Friday that she did have a number of guns and she did mention 357.

[00:19:48]>> I did not mention that to you. I did not mention anything about what guns I owned. I'm sure that if you got that, you got that from the police department, which is where the information on our permits is.

[00:20:01]>> What?

[00:20:02]>> Okay. I'm sure I didn't mention what I've got. I don't I don't recall that.

[00:20:07]>> All right. All right. Can I ask where this conversation will be going from this point on?

[00:20:12]>> Well, as we had told we on Friday, uh a lot of muddied waters have been raised as a result of things that have been published in a newspaper and uh our office did not have an investigation going prior to the recent articles in a newspaper. But as a result of them, we have started checking up on a number of the facts which were raised as a result of the newspaper articles and Detective Bird and myself have been out here. We have spoken to to wheat on a prior occasion with regard to just generally John Carr.

[00:20:46]>> No, no, Friday night.

[00:20:47]>> Friday night right now. And uh again, as I said uh during our conversation, there had been a 357 mentioned. There had been a 22 mentioned. There had been a 9mm mentioned.

[00:21:00]And at that time, I had not asked we whether or not she was licensed. And I just asked her out.

[00:21:05]>> Can I ask a question?

[00:21:06]>> Sure.

[00:21:08]>> Um, is there any any reason to believe that uh all of this story has any truth in it at all? I mean, is there really some investigation that's going on?

[00:21:28]Is there really some police department that has brought this to light, or is this just the fancy of the reporter that wants to sell his newspapers?

[00:21:38]>> As far as uh >> before you started, you said you did not start until the newspaper story arrived.

[00:21:44]The newspaper, >> does he have any proof that anything he's saying is true, or is it all a fiction part of his imagination?

[00:21:54]Uh, as far as what they print in newspaper, I really can't tell you. I have no idea whether he is certainly imagining it or not.

[00:22:02]>> He's implying that New York City had opened an investigation in conjunction with North Dakota Police. Is that true?

[00:22:10]>> I am not aware of any investigation of the New York City Police Department.

[00:22:14]Then why is it that nobody from the New York City Police Department has made any kind of uh big splashes on the newspapers that there is no investigation and that we have been so badly damaged by it?

[00:22:29]>> If there isn't any investigation uh presently in progress by the New York City Police Department, I can't see any reason why they would come forward in any way and deny it because they there isn't anything pending as far as I know.

[00:22:44]My original permit was 33891 on the 21st of December 1968.

[00:22:57]Should you get out the date again, please?

[00:23:00]>> 21st of December 1968.

[00:23:06]The original permit number was 33891 >> cuz the the permit you showed me now shows original permit number 35349.

[00:23:17]>> That was due to the fact that it was uh >> I just I just want to read this on to them. The the weapons listed on the rear of the permit uh attached on a uh typewritten piece of paper. Colt 22 caliber.

[00:23:39]>> We have a uh a Colt 22 caliber uh number 1012.

[00:23:46]Got a Colt 25 caliber number OD25941.

[00:23:52]We have a bower 24 >> 25 >> 25 uh number uh 011595.

[00:24:04]We have a Smith and Wesson 32 82530.

[00:24:10]We have a Colt 38 uh 9006.

[00:24:19]Colt 38 F31292 SNW 357 uh serial number 2K20360 uh SNW 357 serial number n uh N11668 returning Mr. car is coming. Mr. Car, do you have these guns around the house?

[00:24:52]>> Yes.

[00:24:53]>> Now, we are any of those guns that we mentioned, you had said something about some of them are yours. You know which ones are yours and which ones you have and which ones your dad doesn't have.

[00:25:06]>> I'm just trying to think which ones are where. Okay.

[00:25:09]>> The Bower 25 is mine. The Smith and Wesson with the K serial number 357 is mine.

[00:25:18]And one of the cults, there's a cult 38.

[00:25:24]I'm not sure which serial number, but one of them is mine.

[00:25:28]>> And do you have those weapons that you mentioned in your home?

[00:25:31]>> They're here in the safe box.

[00:25:34]>> Okay. Do you have any guns in your house aside from the ones your husband may have?

[00:25:38]>> They're only the only guns in the house right now that I can think of off hand.

[00:25:42]I could be wrong. There may be one of mine up there for whatever reason. For very honestly, I think they're all here and the only other ones would be his and they'd be in the house.

[00:25:50]>> And you know which guns those are or any type guns that your husband may have in the house.

[00:25:55]>> Can I guess why this is important?

[00:25:56]>> Yeah.

[00:25:57]>> Only in that they were mentioned to us the other day.

[00:26:00]>> Okay. But why would it be important?

[00:26:01]>> John mentioned >> why would they not, you know, then why would it be just trying to clear up?

[00:26:06]That's all. Yeah.

[00:26:10]What is confusing about them?

[00:26:13]>> It's just that there are a lot of guns involved and we're just trying to track down and know where each one is and who has them. That was it.

[00:26:21]>> Okay. Well, I really don't even know what he has and I'm sure he has a service revolver. I believe he has two other ones.

[00:26:30]Um they're rarely in the house unless he's there.

[00:26:33]And I think one of them may be in his locker. You know, I'm sure service I've never seen a service revolved at home except once. That was to clean it.

[00:26:42]>> I did not want to take that.

[00:26:46]>> Was uh John licensed you know in New York?

[00:26:50]>> Not in New York. No.

[00:26:52]>> How about Michael?

[00:26:53]>> No. Michael wanted nothing to do with guns.

[00:27:02]Now, you had brought down a card with the handwriting sample. Uh, >> that's a personal letter. I don't think it's important.

[00:27:12]>> Did you obtain copies of his handwriting?

[00:27:14]>> No, we have been unable to obtain any copies of your brother's handwriting.

[00:27:18]>> All right. I don't mind purnishing you with copies of his handwriting, but I I will pick it out. Something that I have.

[00:27:24]>> That's fine. I would appreciate any sample that you might give us. Something that you would feel would not be personal and something that you would not want to leave the house.

[00:27:35]>> And again, if you have a picture of him, a full face picture, again, something that would not uh something that you wouldn't not mind parting with temporarily, uh we could make a try to make a one-on-one picture with it with me. We have a Polaroid with us today. I don't know that we could come out with or not. was um I'm the kind of person who does not like to be reminded of this sort of thing and I have put all these pictures away until such time that I feel that I can't take them out so it's not convenient for me to give you one right now.

[00:28:07]>> Now we you had mentioned that uh there were some there was a box of your brother's papers that your father had.

[00:28:16]>> They were all bills that sort of thing.

[00:28:18]bank statement, bills, and not any personal papers in them. My brother didn't write letters. He's just that kind of person. If we have any letters, there's maybe six of them. And the whole time he's in the service, if we still have, we're also not people that save letters.

[00:28:35]>> So, >> you notice we're in telephone business.

[00:28:38]We have to talk to each other. We talk on the telephone. We have very high telephone bills, but very few letters around.

[00:28:44]So, uh, most of our, uh, John didn't like gray letters and he said that he had cobwebs in his mailbox because I never wrote to him. So, as you can see, we did most of our conversations were on the phone.

[00:28:59]Tell me something. I asked you, you said you try to check into it. I don't know if you've had time about some letters that we had received from burglaries that we're having difficulty having returned to us supposedly because of a DA's whole whether it be from Brooklyn Bronx, Queens, Manhattan, I don't even know. Were you able to find out anything?

[00:29:19]>> I have not uh since I saw you on Friday been able to come up with any information with regard to whose hold it is.

[00:29:27]And uh we are trying to we are checking through the Yonas Police Department in an attempt to find out who's holding up the letters and why they're being held.

[00:29:34]I don't know where they are at the present time.

[00:29:36]>> It really doesn't have anything to do with this conversation.

[00:29:39]>> No. Well, it's just a request.

[00:29:41]>> Okay. Well, I just assume we, you know, do this and nothing else.

[00:29:44]>> Now, in the personal property that came from Minot, >> Jones, you never received any of his personal property from Min. Police have not given us a coroner's report, nor have they given us back his wallet, which apparently was the only thing was on his body.

[00:29:59]>> Well, how about any of the other personal things he may personal effects had to uh he did was only gone from here what 24 48 hours?

[00:30:09]>> 3 days. I think he left on Monday. He happened on Wednesday.

[00:30:12]>> Okay. And he only took his clothes with him. he was uh you know so uh the only papers that we have are those that substantiate his air force um the things that his air force papers he had uh and he went to school in the meantime he didn't work or you know I mean he went to college all the rest of the time since he got out so there was there was nothing of any importance in what we had except those things we needed to get for his daughter social security and and hopefully VA benefits.

[00:30:52]>> You know, personal effects, I talk about clothing or anything of that nature. For example, he had a uh card mentioned a a Buddha necklace.

[00:31:02]>> Did that ever have that? It's something he gave me.

[00:31:05]>> No, no, no. That's what I'm asking.

[00:31:08]>> You're speaking about >> No, there was a Buddha necklace. We had discussed it. It was in in a picture that he had with he and his daughter.

[00:31:15]>> What was it? What did it look like?

[00:31:18]>> It was >> It had three parts to it.

[00:31:20]>> Uh it was very it was a very small picture speaking about and it's a thing that he brought back which he told me was a a like a good luck charm. It has three different uh figures on it. It is a thing that he gave me and I don't think that he took that back to North Dakota with that.

[00:31:42]>> Well, this was only one.

[00:31:44]>> Well, they were not.

[00:31:45]>> Would you carry You said it was a a rubbing bootter.

[00:31:47]>> No, he had the necklace. That's the only thing I know of.

[00:31:50]>> Right. That that was what we were talking about.

[00:31:52]>> He has he had it on the pictures I think you're thinking of >> are pictures that were taken like in a park or something. was there were trees around and I couldn't tell exactly >> and it he may have had the necklace on at that time but I haven't seen it I don't know if you even are familiar with it it's something that is normally >> kept in a house and hung above your bed or something like that but it is a a religious artifact that he brought back from >> his one of his faves in the air force when he was sent overseas >> this is what what I'm referring to is a necklace that which was a Buddha which was found hanging in the closet of the Okconor apartment after John died. And I was wondering whether it ever got here.

[00:32:34]>> No. No.

[00:32:36]>> He only had the one that I know.

[00:32:38]>> Okay, then we're not talking about the same.

[00:32:40]>> This was a good luck piece that he always wore except when he was upset and then he would take it off.

[00:32:46]>> I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:32:47]>> Okay. I was wondering whether that might have come.

[00:32:50]>> No, I thought you were talking about No, nothing like that has In other words, nothing of his personal effects ever got to you from North Dakota. No, his bag, his wallet is being held out there.

[00:33:06]No, >> Georgia.

[00:33:12]>> Uh, getting back to uh the Mercury, uh, were there any artifacts or anything in the glove compartment of that car? Uh, papers, receipts, anything like that? Do you know? There were bills in the registration.

[00:33:30]You don't recall uh a receipt for a 44 Colt?

[00:33:37]To >> my knowledge, he didn't own one.

[00:33:39]>> Okay.

[00:33:42]It's we've been told by Linda Okconor that uh there was a receipt in the glove compartment which he always kept locked and she had gone in there to get some something for him out of the glove compartment and she'd seen a yellow receipt made out in the name of John C car for a 44 caliber Colt.

[00:34:03]>> My knowledge he never owned one.

[00:34:08]Was he into shooting wheat like as you were or uh >> Yeah, he did. Um what since we since we were 12, we've been going up to the range since we were kids. John spent a lot of time at the Westchester Police Rifle Range with 22 rifle first.

[00:34:28]>> We did some hunting down Texas.

[00:34:33]Now, at one time in front of this building, there was a sign cars illustrated graphics or graphic illustrations.

[00:34:39]>> Michael is a Was that Michael's business?

[00:34:41]>> Michael graduated from the Rochester Institute of Technology and Professional Photography >> and was that his business that he ran out of this >> was going to have one sign up sign up.

[00:34:55]>> It was in one of the police reports that there had been a sign in front of the house at one time. Yeah, there was a sign in front of the house that said private property cars will be told away at owner's expense. That's the only sign for the answering service or for my studio put a sign out. But >> all the signs exist are the ones that are open.

[00:35:12]>> Ask you did we have the sign out?

[00:35:15]>> Okay.

[00:35:22]Now, as we had discussed with regard to Michael, you had said that you'd spoken about 1:00 in the morning, the day that he died, >> about 10:00 till somewhere after 12 and before one.

[00:35:32]>> Did he give you any indication where he was going at that time?

[00:35:35]>> Down the city to party and relax. He had worked since 7:00 in the morning. Need a little rest, little fun, >> but he never mentioned where he was going or where he was heading for, anything of that nature.

[00:35:51]Do you know about when Michael became uh involved with the Church of Scientology?

[00:35:59]>> I would say roughly four or five years ago.

[00:36:02]>> And did he go down to New York to the Church of Scientology on a regular basis?

[00:36:10]>> What's a reg what's regular?

[00:36:12]>> Well, did he go there every Wednesday, Thursday, Tuesday? Was it a regular schedule where he would go to the surge every week? He took a lot of courses there and took a lot of auditing there.

[00:36:23]He spent a lot of time there.

[00:36:25]>> Well, I know he worked here full-time.

[00:36:28]Is that right?

[00:36:29]>> Recently? Yes.

[00:36:31]>> Well, >> he's been out of college for a long time. What? Since 1973. Okay.

[00:36:37]>> Well, when did he first become involved with the church? Was that while he was in college or after he graduated?

[00:36:44]>> No, after.

[00:36:45]>> Afterwards. And when he got out of college, when he was back home again in Yonkers, did he work? He worked here. Is that correct? At the >> switch to set up. No, >> not at the switchboard, but his management did the uh >> No, sir. He has only worked with me since >> January.

[00:37:02]>> January 1978.

[00:37:04]>> January, February, whenever we incorporate >> January, February. Okay.

[00:37:08]>> About a year and a half, >> right?

[00:37:12]He was trained to be a professional photographer and he worked for several photographers in New York, commercial photographers in New York City. And for a while he was uh actually on the staff at Church of Scientology.

[00:37:24]>> In what capacity?

[00:37:27]>> Staff member, whatever they do.

[00:37:30]>> Was that related to his photography or was that no >> related to the church?

[00:37:33]>> Scientology.

[00:37:35]>> Now, did he go when he was on the staff, did he go was a regular 9 toive job? Did he go in there every day and return every day or?

[00:37:42]>> Yes.

[00:37:45]>> And when did he leave the staff at the Church of Scientology?

[00:37:50]>> Um when we were under 1977.

[00:37:57]I don't know the date.

[00:38:00]>> I really don't know the date.

[00:38:01]>> But he did leave the staff. And there came a time when he started working here with the answering service. staff. When he left the staff, he went back to work for Tony Peterson, >> right? And when did he start working here full- time?

[00:38:15]>> 1978.

[00:38:16]>> Okay. And when he worked here full-time, was he still very active with the Church of Scientology?

[00:38:21]>> He was active with the Church of Scientology until the moment of his death. He is a He is very proud of being part of it.

[00:38:28]>> And as an active member, did he go there on a regular basis?

[00:38:31]>> Why are you asking me this? I've already answered you.

[00:38:33]>> No, you >> Yes, he did. Well, it's not a nineto-five job. They are they have they are open at 10 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night. Nobody works those long hours. He worked whatever his schedule was or auditing.

[00:38:47]>> Mr. Could you give us a couple of minutes to ourselves?

[00:38:50]>> Sure.

[00:38:50]>> Sure.

[00:38:54]>> Time is now uh 3:07.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah. We took a short recess that I could have a conversation with um my clients. Uh you asked a leader question before about having a conversation with Linda Okconor last week >> and uh we would like to clear the air on that little piece of business.

[00:39:15]>> Yes, I did talk to Linda. Okay. I explained to you previously that Linda's very concerned about her job. Linda asked me not to mention speaking to her.

[00:39:26]She wants no connection with us. she feels it will endanger her position.

[00:39:31]Obviously, Linda didn't hesitate to tell you or your people in North Dakota that she spoke to me, so I don't feel bound by that anymore.

[00:39:40]>> Okay.

[00:39:41]>> Okay.

[00:39:41]>> I did speak to her and we did go over much the same things we had gone over at the time of John's death.

[00:39:48]>> Could you just tell us the substance of the conversation as best you recall it?

[00:39:51]And when was the conversation? The >> conversation was last week. I honestly am not sure of which day. Okay. What day did I see you?

[00:40:00]>> Uh, Friday.

[00:40:02]>> Friday. It may have been either Wednesday or Thursday evening.

[00:40:08]Um, basically what it was was I asked her if she had been contacted and I asked her to tell me everything she could think of that was important.

[00:40:21]I asked her if she had been notified about Michael's death and she told me yes. and she described that Terry Gardner telling her about Michael's death. The other thing was just basically I said, "Do you think do you you think this is true what they're saying?"

[00:40:41]She told me that 90% of it no about John being involved in drug. Obviously, that's a matter of public record. Yes, he is. I think that's really about all it was. Now, before you spoke to Linda, has you spoken to anybody else up in North Dakota?

[00:40:56]>> Only Craig in order to reach Linda.

[00:40:58]>> And did he tell you uh who the investigators we had were, what their names were?

[00:41:04]>> No, not at all.

[00:41:05]>> Does Linda indicated to our investigators that you had told her that one of the gentleman's name was Mike?

[00:41:12]>> No.

[00:41:13]>> And we were just going >> I have no way of knowing that. I didn't even know that you had people out there.

[00:41:18]>> But you had spoken to Craig prior to speaking to Linda. And the only conversation I had with Craig was to get Linda's phone number. And again, did you do you think John could have done these weird things they're saying?

[00:41:30]What do you think his frame of mind was at that time?

[00:41:34]>> You spoke for a long time. You spoke about an hour and a half.

[00:41:37]>> Yeah.

[00:41:38]>> And it was just just going over the uh circumstances of John's death. And uh >> that's all.

[00:41:44]>> And that was it.

[00:41:45]>> That's all.

[00:41:48]I told her a little bit about the publicity here, you know, just the way they were wording it here as opposed to the way it was worded in North Dakota.

[00:41:55]She read me some newspaper articles >> cuz of course, as you know, she spoke to our investigators at length with regard to this and of course told them about her conversation with you.

[00:42:08]>> She did tell me that she had an appointment. She's very nervous about it. She had told them to call her at a certain time of day and she was going to set up a meet with them.

[00:42:18]But she said she didn't want them to know that she'd been in touch with us recently just because she's so afraid of losing her job.

[00:42:26]>> And have you spoken to her since that time?

[00:42:28]>> No, definitely not.

[00:42:29]>> Have you spoken to anyone in North Dakota since no limit?

[00:42:33]>> No, I have not. Is there somebody else that she's supposed to have talked to?

[00:42:38]>> No, that's why I'm asking.

[00:42:40]>> No.

[00:42:42]uh the 12th there I spoke to Terry Gardner and to this whatever this sheriff's name is Swan >> Swan >> and this past week when I spoke to Linda other than that I don't and Craig I haven't talked to anyone else in North >> Now when you spoke to Terry Gardner and Sheriff Schwan did you question him about what happened to John's property his wallet his clothing any of his personal effects? Yes.

[00:43:08]>> And what did they tell you?

[00:43:09]>> They told me they were impounded. They had an open investigation. they didn't have to release it until the investigation was closed, that they were not going to release it.

[00:43:18]>> Did you discuss with them at all any question with regard to whether or not is in fact John that died in North Dakota?

[00:43:28]>> I don't remember, but I would imagine my conversation with them was tight police department.

[00:43:33]>> Wow. That I don't know whether it was >> I don't I do not remember specifically discussing it. Does Terry Gardner believe that your brother is the one who died in North Dakota?

[00:43:43]>> Apparently.

[00:43:44]>> I can't answer for him.

[00:43:45]>> No, but has he ever mentioned to you?

[00:43:48]>> I I don't remember any specific about that.

[00:43:52]Obviously, he's investigating my brother's death. That's what he told me.

[00:43:56]So, I'm assuming he thinks it was John.

[00:44:01]>> Mr. car. Do you have any reason anything you know in the back of your mind as you could think of why David Burker was picked on your family?

[00:44:13]>> Can we walk in the backyard?

[00:44:16]>> We know where the >> Oh, yeah. We know. No, I I know where the apartment is and I I I've seen I've seen pictures. I'll tell them no.

[00:44:24]>> In my mind, I was trying to thank them.

[00:44:27]The answer must have thought of that enough times by now. This is a person you've never seen.

[00:44:32]>> I have never seen.

[00:44:33]>> Never spoken to.

[00:44:35]>> Never spoken to.

[00:44:37]>> And uh all and of course you've read all the articles. John Wedies and your name certainly mentioned a number of times. Can you think of anything that was there any possibility that somewhere you might have run into him somewhere that you know something in the back of your mind that you know never really clicked because no one really ever asked you about it?

[00:44:58]>> Not to my knowledge.

[00:45:03]at weed. You had never met?

[00:45:07]>> Not at all.

[00:45:09]>> Did he ever call here that you know or that any one of the three of you ever received a phone call from him?

[00:45:17]>> Isn't this all part of the record?

[00:45:20]>> There were phone calls.

[00:45:22]>> You know that as well as they did.

[00:45:24]>> If I had all the answers, >> I mean, we threatening phone calls. I'm trying to read the reports up in the office police department.

[00:45:32]>> You know that we had threatening phone calls.

[00:45:36]>> Okay. You know we had threatening phone calls. You know all of them. You know all the letters where you receive. How would we know whether David Burkowitz made those calls?

[00:45:44]>> Well, that's why I'm asking you.

[00:45:46]>> He never identified himself as David Burkowitz.

[00:45:49]>> So in any of the threatening calls that you did receive, there were no there was no indication.

[00:45:53]>> There was no names. They didn't say I'm so and so. Okay. Now, when you ask me, haven't I read all the reports? There were many reports. There are thousands of pages. I have I can assure you that I have not read every one of the many thousands of pages of reports that were given to the the various police officers who were involved in the investigation.

[00:46:13]And the reason I'm asking you the questions is so that you can because you're the firstand person so that you can let me know about them.

[00:46:21]>> All right. No, we did not ever know who was making the threatening phone calls.

[00:46:27]The person making the calls never said, "I'm David Burkowitz. I'm calling you to annoy you." Or any such thing as that.

[00:46:35]>> When you got the phone call from the Casaras, Mr. Mrs. to Sarah and you Michelle with regard to having received a card, a get well card and you contacted them.