Have Democrats Found Their Red State STAR To Beat The GOP In Iowa's Rob Sand? | Chuck Todd Politics

本站添加: 2026-06-07

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[00:00:11]Well, given that um not just myself, but many uh political handicappers and observers have made it clear that Iowa is now turning into ground zero for um certainly for the Democratic Party's hopes of making uh 2026 a consequential election. Um, I've already interviewed two of the major new players in Democratic politics in Iowa and have done so in this podcast over the last year. And I just thought for those sometimes this stuff gets lost. So, um, like my friends at NBC used to say, you know, if you haven't seen it during Friends reruns back in the day when reruns were a thing, you say if you haven't seen it, it's new to you. Um, but in all seriousness, about a year ago, I had Rob Sand on this podcast. uh state auditor at the time.

[00:00:58]It was a little bit of get to know who who he is a little bit talking about um Democrats struggles in appealing to uh rural voters and Iowa of course has been ground zero for the erosion of Democratic support in rural America. Uh and what he was doing, why did he have success where many other Iowa Democrats have had have not. and a and a a good chunk of our conversation was about what is I think going to be one of the it's one of the undercurrent issues that have that has folks unhappy in particularly in rural Iowa which is the voucherization of our public school system if you will and so it's a also a good chunk of our conversation about that but I thought given um the attention uh that's coming here I think uh giving you an opportunity to get to know Rob Sand who quickly becoming uh one of the potential rising stars of the 2026 midterm class.

[00:01:55]Enjoy.

[00:01:58]Well, joining me now is somebody who uh is a new candidate for office, at least a top statewide office. It is Rob Sand.

[00:02:07]He's been the two-term Democratic uhly elected state auditor of Iowa and he's now announced that he's running for governor. And uh to time stamp this uh I'm interviewing him about four hours after he unveiled his uh his public campaign for governor. So Rob, you're you've been arguably looking to this moment for a few years now. How does it feel now that you jumped in the water?

[00:02:34]>> Uh I'm I'm excited for this moment.

[00:02:37]Chuck, I I think what really one of the things that really crystallized it and made it clear that it was necessary was the gutting of the auditor's office uh bill that took effect I think about not quite two years ago uh where the Iowa legislature and the governor literally uh made it legal for state agencies and departments in Iowa to hide documents from the state auditor's office. It's the kind of thing that just makes you go, okay, like >> what do you believe it was a direct part uh partisan attack on your office?

[00:03:07]Meaning you had had a lot of success running, you know, doing public corruption.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah.

[00:03:13]>> And because you're a Democrat and the legislaturator's Republican, how much did that factor into the defunding of your of your uh office?

[00:03:20]>> I would I would say this. It was uh really more of a question of being serious about trying to do the job and and do public service as opposed to being one of the insiders that's like, "Oh, you don't want me to dig into that program? Well, don't worry about it.

[00:03:32]Then I won't cuz you told me not to."

[00:03:34]And hey, we're all friends, right? You know, uh that kind of stuff. Uh because I I wouldn't go along. I wouldn't I wouldn't do the uh go along to get along kind of thing. And so I think that yes, it was easier for them to do it because I was a Democrat, but if I had been a Republican who was really serious about public service, not politics, they would have tried. I just don't know if they could have gotten enough majorities to go along with it because we had bipartisan opposition in the Iowa House to it as it was.

[00:04:03]>> Right. Well, I would imagine. I mean, you know, again, public corruption is always one of those things that there's usually pieces of both parties that are that are bipartisan in favor of of strengthening um uh public corruption, you know, offices that target public corruption.

[00:04:17]And then those that believe for a variety of reasons, some may be nefarious and some may be may may be intellectually honest that oh, it gets in the way of business, right? It gets in the way of regulation or it gets in the way of government service.

[00:04:31]>> Um, so I buy that. But let me ask you this. I think the I think your job being auditor to me would both be interesting and also though sometimes a um a negative place to come from and here's my and here's where I'm curious where if you the auditor's job is to find you know to find waste fraud and abuse right essentially right and so if you don't find it does it mean everything is going well or you didn't do a good enough job looking for it right like I feel like it's a ever like I don't feel like you could ever feel satisfied that you're doing the job, >> you know, that you've you've found everything because >> I think the public is probably like me a little bit cynical assuming well there's always a little bit of public corruption. The question is are you finding it all?

[00:05:17]>> Yeah. And I think that's a there's going to be a great uh piece for this which is a great answer for that here. We uncovered a record amount of misspent money in my first term and the answer to that from politicians in De Moines was to go hey we got to stop this guy. he's actually doing his job >> rather than hey this is great should we reform our practices right I mean you know right >> yeah you'd think that that would be the answer but that's the difference and that to me is the like I think at the heart of this campaign it's really the question of public service and government trying to serve all Ians versus politics and having it serve insiders and special interests and I don't think that you could have a clearer example of that >> than literally them looking at us doing our job really well and going we got to slow him down.

[00:06:08]>> Did you think about not running as a Democrat but running as an independent?

[00:06:13]>> Uh look, I I guess I'd say this. Um people who know me I'm I'm I'm glad that you asked that question because people who know me know that I'm not satisfied with a two- choice system. Uh and I think it's important that we talk about that. The bottom line is most of us have experienced this in the ballot uh booth where we we look at our options and we see Democrat, independent, Republican and we see the independent and we like the independent but we're also like man if I vote for the independent I know I'm just throwing my vote away and there's that frustration of just sort of the being trapped right being a prisoner of this system while we are also participants in it.

[00:06:52]>> Mhm.

[00:06:53]>> That's the bottom line. It's the same question for a candidate. So, I would love to have a system in Iowa where independent candidates can actually get elected very easily, but we're going to have to change how the system works before we get there.

[00:07:05]>> How would you change that in Iowa to do that? I mean, look, I I I take your point here. Um, and yet I would just sort of warn you and other people. I I bet you the Tories didn't think that they were ever going to get knocked out from their top two status in political parties in in in the UK. And guess what they just saw happen to them?

[00:07:26]>> Yeah.

[00:07:26]>> And the Democratic brand is quite weak.

[00:07:28]Um particularly in the agricultural Midwest, even at a time when it's not as if the Republican brand is doing great.

[00:07:35]>> It's just, you know, they've succeeded by not being the Democratic party brand.

[00:07:39]Um you being an auditor, I would argue it's better to be an independent than to be a member of either political party, right? To feel like you could truly function in that job.

[00:07:48]>> But again, that's why I asked that question.

[00:07:50]>> Sure. But if you do that, then you get back to the same thing, which is if if I run as an independent, the Republicans go out and they collect petitions to have somebody run as a Democrat and they have someone register as a Democrat or they find some >> absolutely furious Democrat who's so mad at me for running as an independent and then you've got a three-way race and we all know what happens. I am I am the spoiler or maybe it's the Democrat that's a spoiler, but >> right, either way, >> it's over before it begins because of the way we structure elections, right?

[00:08:18]So the answer to how you do that in Iowa um is again like and well actually I want to go to a different piece of your point here about the Tories and sort of being a favored party this is supposed to be about solving problems. This is government is supposed to be about people coming together and deciding okay what do we need to address this issue? How do we address that issue? So many of our founders warned us, "Watch out for factionalism, Rod.

[00:08:42]Watch out for partisanship."

[00:08:44]>> And we are at the point here where people actually say, you know, like, "Oh, well, you know, you'd have to be careful about that because what if then you're not electing a Democrat?" Well, what if we were actually solving lots and lots of problems?

[00:08:55]>> Mhm.

[00:08:56]>> But we were having people with a different letter behind their name, whether it's Republican or independent or anything else, do it. I'm here for solving problems. And I think as long as we uh have a system that allows elected officials and candidates to sort of say, "Well, I don't have to solve your problems as long as I can convince you that so and so over here is worse than me." I don't think we're solving a lot of problems because there's no incentive to do it.

[00:09:19]>> So, your answer to be more specific, if you want the more specific answer, uh right now in the state of Iowa, independent voters are not allowed to participate uh in primaries that their tax dollars pay for. I think that's wrong. So, I think we should have a single open primary, >> right?

[00:09:35]>> And then I'd love to see approval voting on the second side of that for uh three or four or five candidates. So, here's here's the three three to five that make it through to the general. Vote for all of them that you approve of. There is no rank choice. The tabulation is available automatically. It's easy.

[00:09:52]>> And then the general is uh a 50% whoever gets 50% wins or just top vote getter in your in your >> just top vote getter. So, this is what Fargo, North Dakota does. They uh you have four or five candidates in the general election and you as the voter, you can vote for all of them or one of them just however many you approve of.

[00:10:12]And so, whoever has the most votes still wins the election, plain and simple.

[00:10:16]>> Yeah. Uh that seems rational and logical, which will be I mean, >> so it could never succeed, right?

[00:10:22]>> Never succeed. You don't have the duopoly isn't going to allow for it to happen. So, describe your relationship with the Democratic party. you've been a Democrat your your whole life, but is it u you know if you win is it a victory for the Democratic party or is it a victory for independence in your mind in Iowa?

[00:10:40]>> So I I was registered as an independent when I first registered to vote. I did register as a Democrat soon after that because I realized in order to vote in the primary I had to pick my poison. Uh the difference is I still talk about the fact that it was poison that I picked.

[00:10:55]>> Do you still feel that way? I mean, I look, I feel that we have political parties because I'm a character voter.

[00:11:01]>> I really am a character and a problem solver voter. So, I and I and I'm lucky enough to live in a state in Virginia where I you it's no party registration.

[00:11:08]You get to pick which primary you vote in. You you know, you you pick for that cycle, but you get to pick whichever one you want. So, a little more little more choice. So, I certainly as a journalist like that, too, because you can't pigeon hole me by looking at my voting record.

[00:11:21]Oh, he's always voting Democrat or always voting Republican. But uh but I like that just as a voter and I assume more voters like that. But it it does sound like you're a you're a reluctant partisan.

[00:11:32]>> I'm a public servant. I live in a system where in order to be effective just like when I was a voter in my early 20s, I have to choose one or the other. And so that's what I've done. If I win, is it a victory for the Democratic party? That would be for other Democrats to decide.

[00:11:48]I've never been to the DNC. I'm I'm clear about what I believe. if I'm clear about the fact that I'm a Democrat because I have to pick one or the other.

[00:11:56]>> Um I think I think uh that if I win then maybe that helps other people figure out what's effective out there. But I'm not doing it I want to be a public servant to the whole state of Iowa. I don't want to be a leader for a political party. In in in my time at the state auditor's office, we had Democrats, independents, and Republicans always in senior leadership. I actually uh appointed people uh to the most senior positions in the office who had made campaign contributions to my opponent from 2018. I think it's important to do that because Do you plan on doing that if you win this time?

[00:12:35]>> I would absolutely do that if I win.

[00:12:37]Yeah, I would want to have a bipartisan cap cabinet 100%. Or a trial. I'd like to have some independence. Yeah.

[00:12:43]somebody that may be a contributor to the eventual Republican nominee. And I saw that Congressman, >> it's a lot easier to find, you know, you got a bigger circle to uh to cast from if you just say a voter or a supporter or a registered Republican. But if if I found someone who was a donor who also was well qualified to do the work, that wouldn't stop me. It hasn't stopped me in the past.

[00:13:04]>> So, let's talk about, you know, you're running because you think the direction of Iowa has been going in the wrong direction. So, let's talk about that. Um I you know from the outside the biggest change that I've noticed uh that Governor Reynolds did had to do with school funding.

[00:13:22]>> Yep.

[00:13:22]>> Um and it's certainly when you're on the ground in Iowa when you when you get past the sort of the the the red versus blue the national conversation and you ask what's going on in Iowa. That's usually the first issue I hear about. Uh is that still the first issue you hear about? It's that and its rising costs which is obviously a you know issue that's driven mostly by national politics and international politics but yeah education is way up there and the bottom line on that to me is just the complete lack of accountability uh for how those vouchers how that money gets spent. The money is required. So this is was $und00 million last year and the Reynolds administration didn't let us audit the controls of the program.

[00:14:01]Again, they use that new law just as we predicted they would to literally hide our ability to see what was going on with money. But even even Chuck, if the program is working the way it's supposed to, all of that money, the whole 100 million has to first go to tuition.

[00:14:18]Once it's paid as tuition, there's only one thing on God's green earth that can't be done with the money with private schools. They can't pay a rebate to uh parents whose kids are going there, but that's it. any other way they want to use the money. Totally legal and they don't and we're not allowed to audit it. So I don't even know how we would find out. That to me is insane.

[00:14:37]>> Are you allowed to audit the public school use of taxpayer money?

[00:14:41]>> Public schools are audited every year in the state of Iowa. Now we have 100 million >> private schools using taxpayer dollars are not going to be um scrutinized at all.

[00:14:50]>> What are we doing here? What are we doing here?

[00:14:53]It blows my mind. But again, it's it's part of the reason that it's like, okay, like we need a change in direction. Like this this state truly is in a moment where their focus on the people they're taking care of is tiny. There are three million people in this state. Uh and they're taking care of insiders. They're taking care of special interests.

[00:15:12]Odyssey, the company that runs the program, we found out after months of stonewalling, they actually doubled the pay for Odyssey to administer the state's voucher program with no additional obligations on behalf of Odyssey in return. They just said, "You know what? We told you we're going to give you this amount of money. We're going to double it. Happy birthday. Have fun." Hey, it I want to dig into this because to me the biggest challenge for the school choice advocates is rural America. You know, I'd love, you know, if you live in rural parts of this country, whether it's in Iowa, Florida, Texas, these are three states that have been very aggressive about this.

[00:15:50]>> Um it's not like it's easy to start up another school. And either you're going to have some questionably accredited people trying to do startup schools in in areas that they've never done it before and they're going to be using taxpayer dollars to experiment and it could fall on its face. That's something we, you know, found out in Florida. You know, if you had a good administrator, maybe the school went well, but if you didn't, all of a sudden money disappeared and parents were wondering where where where's all these promised teachers? But it's I've noticed particularly in rural parts of Texas and Florida, even among very conservative voters, they're very nervous about this because they're like, "What? Where's the choice? You're really basically saying >> I either homeschool my kids and maybe you're going to give me some money to do that >> or I maybe get into a pod with some other like-minded parents, but that is actually why can't we just make the school in my neighborhood better?

[00:16:50]You know, Jim Pillan in Nebraska, Republican governor, uh said what, maybe three years ago, hey, we are going to really increase our investment in Nebraska public schools. And and what do you know? According to US News and World Report, Nebraska is now ranked higher than Iowa for public schools, which as an Ian and someone that has a rivalry with Nebraska the way much of my state does really annoys me.

[00:17:14]>> And you grew up there. Tell, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the '9s, and this is when you were going to school there, >> Iowa, Massachusetts, they were in the top five all the time as far as public school. I mean, the Iowa public school system was was was uh was something that was the envy of others in the Midwest, was it not?

[00:17:34]>> We we put we put it on our quarter, our quarter, our US quarter for Iowa says foundation in education and now we're in the middle of the pack. It is embarrassing >> because they've just just I don't I mean pulling again, I understand the frustration with a a a specific local school that parents can have, right? And this doesn't feel like solving a problem. This just feels like we know you don't like it so here go let's create competition but not everything can look we can't create a competitive US mail service okay a service is a service I you know what you do is you improve the service well and I want to and I want to you know they like to throw around this phrase school choice what that really means is that private schools get to choose their students >> right >> right the public schools you walk in the door hey we're going to educate you the rule should be hey if we want real competition. Well, competition means everybody follows the same rules and may the best fill in the blank win. Whether that's a football team or a school, you want to have competition. All right, fine. Private schools, in order to get this money, you too have to take every student that says they want to attend there. Oh, well, that's hard. It's hard to plan. Yeah. Well, that's a difficulty that public schools face. You said you wanted to have competition. Same rules apply. Rob, you know what's common around here and I and it's common everywhere this but this I could just tell you from experience is that you know I have some parents who have have a child that that maybe needs some extra help special needs some you know in different variations private schools can say no we don't have the services to help your kid you should try this place so then of course your choice is actually smaller than it was because maybe there's only one private school that has decided to invest in in helping kids with this same sort of you who has a different learning plan than than kids over here. And guess what happened? It turned out he was better off staying in Arlington public schools and his kid got some services because the public school had to provide the services and it was actually really good services.

[00:19:32]>> We I know a family in our neighborhood that had the same experience. Uh they switched our kids are in public schools in Iowa. They switched from a private school to the public school and it's been going much better for them. Um, but again, I I just to me this is just a question of okay, you want fairness, you want competition, you want choice, then actually implement policies that do that as opposed to just saying those words because the the law in the state of Iowa right now doesn't do those things. Most of the private schools have had their uh tuition skyrocket. So, if the idea was, oh, we're going to help you get this money to get so you can cover tuition and then tuition skyrockets, it's still out of reach for those people, but I'm not sure that that's ever what this was about because we also have no income limits on the program. So, the wealthiest Ians this year uh are using this program where people in rural areas where they don't have private schools are paying state taxes and now a lot of that money is going to wealthy Ians to send their kids to private schools. No, I mean it it's it's what happens whenever you increase money into the into the system.

[00:20:37]>> The beneficiary gets to it becomes inflationary. They get to raise their prices and they will raise their prices.

[00:20:42]It it's like that. All right. Look, we're making a pretty good argument against this the the school choice, but we're not. We've I want to hear you make your Tell me how you can how can we get because I do think there's a lot of frustration that here we are basically it's over a hundred years since we started our public school infrastructure in this country, let alone in the state of Iowa or everywhere else. Um, and it really hasn't changed, right? Like I think this is why there's parental frustration here. I don't want to the parents wanting something different is a real issue. Now you and I are saying hey what you think is a fix isn't going to work the way you think it's going to work. So what's your plan to improve public schools and more importantly to restore confidence in the public school system with these parents?

[00:21:28]>> Sure. So we started a government efficiency program in 2019 that is so good at saving tax dollars it's actually been copied in two other states. It's called PI, public innovations and efficiencies. Uh, and it covers cities and counties, too, but it also covers school districts. We have an incredible checklist of ways that they can save money, and the more of them that they implement, the more money they're going to save. And so, what I would like the state to do, we have right now a really meaningful surplus that's presently just sort of sitting there. I would like us to actually start a revolving fund to help schools with the upfront cost for those efficiency investments because most folks know, you know, if you're going to make some efficiency investments, you pay a little bit upfront and it pays off down the road.

[00:22:16]So, we could use those state dollars to help dig in and make efficiency improvements. Those would help us do the things that we know make schools more effective. Parental involvement, smaller class sizes, right? But you can do those if you're saving that money in a way where it doesn't necessarily cost more money. I think that's a no-brainer. And I don't know why we're sitting here in 2025 and it's only being proposed right now as opposed to already being done. It does seem as if this has become such a partisan issue that that Republicans feel like they have to be anti-public school even if they want their local I mean we we've turned it into almost a litmus test on the right. So m make your case to a conservative that they should want to spend more time investing in the public school system rather than in a private school uh uh carve out.

[00:23:04]>> Part of my belief in public schools is because of my patriotism. I love this country. This country is about democracy. It's about all Americans working together. The one place in our lives where we can meet everyone is when we are students in public schools. Whatever you do after that, whether it's you're going to college, well, you're going to college with people who go to college. Are you going to go uh be an electrician? Well, you're going to be an apprentice electrician with other folks learning to be an electrician, right? Whatever path you choose after that point is a narrowing experience. One of the best experiences you can have to understand just how good the people are who surround us is being a part of and supporting public schools where the kids you are next to are the kids who are uh from wealthy families and from poor families. The kids you're there are from uh well educated families or not well educated families. The kids you're next to are from uh families with both parents working or zero parents working. But you know and you understand society, I think, so much better. And that gives you such a better sense of who we are as a state or as a country if you're participating in public schools.

[00:24:21]Look, I went to a public high school in Miami, Florida that was a in 19 in the late 1980s. It was a third a third a third Latino, third African-American, third white. It was pretty segregated inside the school. I'm not going to sit here and say it wasn't. You'd have friend groups, >> but there were plenty of ways that it wasn't segregated. And in fact, you ended up with relationships because of a student activity. Maybe it was in sports, maybe it was in music, whatever it is.

[00:24:44]>> And and it look it does give you a better understanding of the world we live in rather than some fantasy, you know, isolated bubble. No, it it that's a that's a that's a good argument. Let me ask you this on Governor Reynolds.

[00:24:57]What's a policy that what what are some policies that you're going to keep if you're elected governor? What has she done right? I was delighted to see uh the state require that public schools have a cell phone policy to limit the usage of cell phones.

[00:25:12]>> Um and I actually want to go back to one thing you had just said there about, you know, the friends that you made this weekend. I went home to Dora, my hometown, >> and invited uh high school buddies to come over and I was sitting there with uh two of my best friends from high school. One does construction work, bridge construction. Uh the other one does auto body work. Um their wives came over, their kids came over. We had a great time. One of their wives is a public school teacher, although uh she's in Minnesota. Uh the other one, uh until very recently was a teller at a bank. Um these are smart people and I know them and I know they have tons of common sense and that they have great work e work ethic and that they're smart because I spent 12 years in public schools growing up with them. And it doesn't matter what people's choices are after. Uh I think I think that they're smarter or uh than than some of the people that I went to college with. Um and I think it's important to understand that if but you need to get that experience before you can understand that.

[00:26:16]>> Right. No, I it's good. Go back to Governor Reynolds. What's she done right?

[00:26:21]>> Oh yeah. School phone, cell phone ban.

[00:26:23]Anything anything else that policies you'd like to keep that she's been doing? I was happy to see that one done.

[00:26:29]Um I was glad to see the uh state government reorganization done for the most part. Uh there were pieces of it that I wouldn't have done, but we had 36 cabinet level agencies in Iowa. I don't think that we needed that many. Um I don't know.

[00:26:43]>> 36. That's more than the federal government.

[00:26:45]>> Yeah. So now we're down to 16. I don't know that 16 is the magic number, but certainly we did not need 36. So that was a good move.

[00:26:53]>> Wow. 36. So you came of age politically during arguably the most bipartisan era in the history of Iowa, right? It was one R and one D for senators. Literally two and two, you know, be be a be a two to two in the congressional delegation, three to two when it was five, you know, going back and forth. You had a, you know, what was it? 12 years of 16 years of Republican governors followed by 12 years of Democratic governors, right?

[00:27:24]And it was a very uh and even now, right, there's not a clean it wasn't a clean Republican sweep. Um but Iowa has shifted or it feels like it shifted. Has it shifted or is this a is this a red mirage? Is this a Trump phenomenon that will look like an outlier 10 years from now? So there's kind of two pieces of my answer to that question. One is there are still a huge number of Ians that are focused on the candidate, not on the party or uh you know public service rather than politics. In 2022, Tom Miller and Mike Fitzgerald both ended up about 1% shy of winning their races for state treasur and attorney general. If those guys had won, we would be the only state in the country with an evenly split delegation for the state offices, >> statewide offices.

[00:28:22]>> That would be a measure where you could say literally we are the most purple state, right? And we were 1% off of that.

[00:28:28]>> So Republicans have won a lot of elections in Iowa lately, but Ians are still just sort of looking for the person, right? And this is why this state, I think, went uh for Obama twice and then Trump three times. Not because the state changed overnight, but because both of those guys were outsiders who promised to change politics.

[00:28:46]>> No, it's I completely agree that they have more in common than they don't.

[00:28:50]That that is what they're that bond of the voter was looking for an outsider.

[00:28:55]Shake up the system. Don't keep the system running as it's been.

[00:28:58]>> Yeah.

[00:29:01]So, does that mean you're going to um do you think uh it would behoove the Democratic party if Iowa were first in the nation on their side of the aisle?

[00:29:08]Again, >> uh I I do um >> make the case >> and we're going to and and we're going to follow Iowa law. Uh I'm not concerned with what the DNC says, but >> sure, but but make the case to the DNC here. Like, why should they why should I, you know, I I can I know the case I'd make of why Iowa should be first of the nation. And I and I, you know, folks who listen to me know my father grew up in eastern Iowa, Waterlue. I've got more family buried in Edgewood, Iowa than I do alive in the state of Iowa. So I'm a I'm an eastern Iowa guy. I know I know the area well and I think Ians are good at at doing this. But but make a make a make the case that you have to make to the DNC to do this.

[00:29:47]>> Sure. Pretty straightforward. Ians have been doing this for a very long time. Uh folks like yourself, I don't know if you ever said it specifically, but there were other reporters who when they were here for the caucuses would say, "Man, I've been in every state and I've done this for years. Nobody asks better questions than Iowa voters. Nobody's more into it. No one is more, you know, I appreciate that you made a personal phone call to me, Mrs. Candidate, but I'm going to still Yeah, I'm going to I'm still going to make sure that I have a chance to >> Look, I love my friends in New Hampshire, too. They're They ask tough questions, too. The New Hampshire voters is good at this, too. I've always said the two of you together are good at this, but anyway, go go for it. No.

[00:30:26]>> Well, but then, you know, then then DNC comes in here and says, "Okay, well, Iowa, oh, uh, they complain about uh, diversity and they complain I can't remember what the other thing was, but then they added a state that was less diverse." Oh, and competitiveness. And then they added another state that was also less competitive.

[00:30:42]>> Less competitive, right? Yeah. No, look, I actually think they're the real rejecting Iowa's first in the nation status is also sending a message to a whole group of voters that they don't want them to be Democrats.

[00:30:54]>> And I think that is >> here, you know what they subtly, this is the message that I think this >> not too subtle, >> not at all. And I mean, look, Eastern Iowa is the the great example. This is as democratic. It used to, you know, you look, I don't have to tell you this. The state was basically the east side was Democrat, the west side was Republican, and literally De Moine in the middle was the swing area. Still is the swing area, but Donald Trump racked up all sorts of support uh along the Mississippi River and in B where you grew up in Dor. You you've seen it firsthand.

[00:31:29]I is it as much of what did what did the MAGA movement do in eastern Iowa or is it what the Democratic Party didn't do in Eastern Iowa?

[00:31:38]Look, um it's always a little bit of six on one, half dozen on the other, right? I mean, two things could be true at once. Again, keep in mind that um during those presidential races, Democrats also nominated consumate insiders, right? I don't think that that helped. Not in a place where people look at politics and they see a bunch of BS when what they want is people working together to just solve problems.

[00:32:09]You know, the last time you and I were face to face, I think it was in Decora, and I was doing a piece about what happened to the Democrats in Eastern Iowa. And you know, the one Democrat that these folks kept bringing up was Pete Budajage.

[00:32:20]>> They weren't bringing up. They were like, "Hillary Clinton never came in 16." I'd hear that all the time. She never came. She'd fly to De Moine, do a few events within driving range of of De Moine, and then leave again. And I heard similar complaints uh in 2020 by Biden and some of these others, but Pete was the one doing it the oldfashioned way and he was showing up in these towns and then oh look who ended up overperforming in the caucuses. I'm I'm shocked that campaigning worked, you know.

[00:32:47]>> Well, and I think I think that goes to the idea of listening um and how much that can matter to voters. Let me tell you a story from a month ago, Chuck, that still blows my mind.

[00:32:59]Um, there's a conservative group in northwest Iowa in uh what you would probably pronounce Gaza. It's Gaza here in Iowa. G- Aza. They're the Gaya Patriots in their conservative group.

[00:33:13]>> And they have a hard time getting some of the Republican- elected officials in the state of Iowa to come there to do a town hall.

[00:33:21]I'm an open book. They reached out said, "Will you come do a town hall?" I said, "Absolutely." Mhm.

[00:33:27]>> I went up there. We had a great event. I don't know if we had uh 70, 80, 90 people. Um we had Q&A, which they ended up pre-screening. I wasn't my request.

[00:33:38]When I do my 100 town halls, I don't speak precreen I don't pre-screen questions.

[00:33:46]>> Three times.

[00:33:47]>> I can't I can't I can't even say it once slowly. Um, but when they announced, Chuck, that I was going to come talk to them, the Iowa GOP headquarters read them the riot act.

[00:34:02]>> They treated these Ians like they own them. And that to me is the kind of stuff that, >> man, it just makes me want to fight. I the idea that a political party would call people and sort of tell them, don't you go listening to your statewide elected official. Don't you go and asking questions of this statewide elected official. There's something deeply wrong in the establishment of that party right now. And that to me is a great great example of it.

[00:34:31]>> Well, that look, that's usually how party runs end in a state where there becomes where you're so entrenched, you're so used to winning that you you think you can bully, you know, you think you can keep it up. That's usually the the beginning uh of an unravel. Uh, on that, let me let me get you out of here.

[00:34:49]I want you to do a shorthand version of the of the of the lottery scam because you wrote a book. You wrote a true crime book and I and I think it's pretty good.

[00:35:01]It really reminds me of the McDonald's Monopoly scam.

[00:35:06]>> Yeah.

[00:35:06]>> Because it was a similar It was a similar discovery. And for those that remember that Netflix special about the McDonald's thing, this had to do with was it Powerball and the mega because I De Moine is headquarters for a couple of these state hot lot these multi-state lotteryies >> and um I'm guessing you didn't even think it was as corrupt as you ended up finding out. Give me the give me the elevator I guess the long elevator ride version of the story.

[00:35:36]>> Sure. Um, bottom line is there was a guy who had the job of writing the code that was going to pick random numbers through a computer program. and he put a little bit extra into that code so that uh on two dates a year >> uh if that date fell on a Wednesday or a Sunday, I think it was if the draw was happening after 8:00 p.m. If all three of those things would meet, then instead of using a random number generator, uh it would use a six variable formula to sort of pick the seed. And so, of course, because he was an insider, he knew >> he knew he knew what day this could happen, right? and he and he would know what those variables were so he could go out and buy a small number of tickets and guarantee a win. He his best friend, his brother, and then some guys who are Bigfoot hunters because his brother is one and they're believers, >> meaning like Bigfoot like >> Bigfoot Sasquatch. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

[00:36:36]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:37]>> Somewhere. Yeah.

[00:36:38]>> Uh I just accidentally, you know, but he is but he is definitely in my book which is called the winning ticket.

[00:36:45]Um they were able to get >> if you have a good Bigfoot story that only helps your true crime narrative. So yeah, it's well done.

[00:36:52]>> They were able to get away with this for effectively for a decade. Um and we found out >> So how often did they win? I mean so they and what were they doing? Were they being careful like not trying to win the whole thing, winning small like because you know sometimes the best way to rip somebody off is not to try to get the big score but like you get 10 mediumsiz scores.

[00:37:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Uh, I mean, the Iowa one was a very big one. They had a couple of tiny jackpots in there uh for 20k. Uh, but they were winning uh jackpots of over a million dollars. And uh the one of my favorite stories in the in the book actually is about how uh the first one they actually had the FBI come and question the brother about how the money had gotten won. He was questioned while he was in a hospital bed because he broke both of his legs while falling out of a tree Bigfoot hunting. So, there's that. Um, but when uh Eddie the mastermind was trying to convince his best friend, hey, it's okay. Don't worry about it. We can do this a second time. One of the things he shared with him only at that point after the best friend had already won one jackpot was, hey, look, this is how easy this is. This is how sure I am. The FBI actually questioned my brother when I did this with him before I did it with you the first time.

[00:38:09]And the guy blew his top because he hadn't that was the first time he learned about this other jackpot. And not only was there another jackpot, but also the FBI had questioned some of the people involved. So, he got very he got a lot less happy with his best friend after that point.

[00:38:22]>> It's always nice when the when the uh people you're uh you're investigating aren't that bright.

[00:38:29]>> Uh you know what? This is human nature.

[00:38:31]And and Chuck, you wanted to we wanted to wrap it up. This is why we have checks and balances. This is why we want people to be led not into temptation.

[00:38:40]This is why the Constitution is a genius document because when you give one person all the power, eventually >> they're going to misuse it and they also they're going to make mistakes.

[00:38:50]>> Before I let you go, these what's been harder on the Iowa farmer, the the tariff uncertainty or the aid contracts going away?

[00:39:01]>> Good question. Um, most of the folks that I'm talking to right now are pretty focused on tariffs. I mean, it's just you want to be able to grow what you're going to grow and fight for the price that you think is the right price. But when you don't know where the price is going because you have no idea what's going to happen next, it is so hard to make that decision. And you most they want to they want to sink or swim according to their own decision- making.

[00:39:26]But when there's all this uncertainty out there, they they they are sort of trapped >> in this system that they have no control over, which then means they have very little control over their own success.

[00:39:37]>> This is going to be one of those rare occasions where there's full bipartisan support against these tariffs in Iowa.

[00:39:41]We've seen Chuck Grassley. He came out very quickly trying to, >> you know, because >> he's the only one. He's the only one.

[00:39:48]>> I am curious. Do do you do you is and that's what I was going to ask you. Has the state of Iowa filed onto that lawsuit against the tariffs or not?

[00:39:56]>> I don't think so. And I would be shocked if they do because our attorney general.

[00:40:00]Um, >> but if you were sitting there, if you were working with Tom Miller again, would you would you be pushing him in that office to >> I think they I like I like Chuck Grassley's answer. I would agree with him. If this if these tariffs work, I'm going to say amen. Hallelujah. But I don't think they're going to work.

[00:40:14]>> Yeah. It's hard to see how they're going to work. I don't I this is not the 1920s. And by the way, they didn't really work in the 1920s either. Uh Rob Sand, it's going to be a fascinating campaign. Um you're going to be I you know, there's a lot more writing on your on your campaign than maybe you may realize, which is, you know, belief in whether Iowa's a swing state again, belief of if you win, I bet you first in the nation status comes with you. I know that's not why you're running for governor, but I just have a feeling that that sort of the perception of the Midwest as a swing territory, the perception of Iowa, all of those things probably on your shoulders whether you like it or not. And I don't know if whether you appreciate that or not.

[00:40:57]>> I'm just going to do my job.

[00:41:00]>> Well, look, it's going to be an interesting race. And do you expect a primary?

[00:41:05]>> There's someone who's said that she'll run. We'll see if she really does. Um, I got no problem with the primary >> and there's going to be a probably a pretty big primary on the on the on the other side.

[00:41:15]>> I would imagine so, but you know.

[00:41:16]>> Mhm.

[00:41:17]>> We'll find out. I'll tell you this, whoever comes out of it is going to be an advocate for lockep uh the agenda that uh Kim Reynolds has run that I think is unpopular in the state of Iowa right now. New direction.

[00:41:30]>> You're you're betting on that this is going to be a change a change environment no matter who's comes out in the nominee. I'm a guy that looks at politics and is mostly disappointed with what it is. So, I'm a changed guy regardless.

[00:41:42]>> All right. Well, Rob, I'll be watching closely, as you know, and and hopefully uh I'll get you back here again.

[00:41:47]>> All right. Thanks, Jo.