Dr. Martin provides a necessary corrective to the unregulated coaching industry by re-centering professional accountability and the sociopolitical roots of trauma. Her insights successfully bridge the gap between clinical rigor and the urgent need for systemic liberation.
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OFFICE HOURS: Dr. Raquel Martin Talks Cheyenne Bryant, Credentialing, and Black Mental HealthAdded:
[music] [music] Peace family. This is your brother Mark Lamont Hill. Welcome to Office Hours.
Every week here on the Mark Hill official YouTube channel, I hold office hours where we break down the most uh or we don't break down, we talk to the most controversial thinkers, the most engaging minds, the most interesting thinkers in the world today. Uh we do night school. Y'all know about night school. That's here every night. We come here, we break down topics, we talk about things, we unpack it. But you know, sometimes you need to go deeper.
Sometimes you need to not just talk about an idea. You need to talk about the source of an idea or you need to talk to the practitioner of a thing, somebody who's out in the world doing something that matters. This week, I wanted to make sure that we talked about something that I think is very important, and that is black mental health. And part of the reason why we want to talk about black mental health, and we do that all year round, is because there have been a series of of conversations going on. Um, we have some celebrity uh therapists, celebrity life coaches, celebrity counselors, celebrity relationship advisors. Some of them are credentials, some of them aren't. Some of them are doing great work, some of them aren't. And for weeks on threads, on X, on Facebook, all the places, people have been talking about this issue and trying to make sense of who got what. I don't want to get into that because that's the gossip. That's the messiness of it. I want to focus on some deeper questions about why people get licensed, who is licensed, what it all means, and how it can help black people as a collectively and individually achieve their goals in terms of mental health. And I was like, this is a great conversation, but I don't know nothing about it. And that's the great thing about office hours. I don't have to hold them every week. I like to bring in people who have their own ideas, people who have their own mind. And this week, we're bringing in Dr. Raquel Martin. Dr. Raquel Martin, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist, a professor, a scientist, and a podcast host that specializes in black health and well-being. Dr. Martin is committed to advancing culturally responsive mental health care, liberation psychology, we going to talk about that, and systemic change for the black community. She is the founder of the Burn the Cape movement, which seeks to disrupt the black superwoman schema and support black women in releasing the pressure to overperform, prioritize their well-being, and live more human, not just more productive, but more human lives. She's also the founder of the Cape Sanctuary, a mental health and education community created just for black women. She's also host of the Mind Your Mental Podcast, which I absolutely got to check out. Uh she's also a leading voice in anti-racist community based wellness and advocacy.
She speaks, she talks, she hosts, she heals, she does all the stuff and most importantly she is here right now with us for office hours. Dr. Martin, so good to see you.
>> Thank you so much for having me.
>> Now you know how we got here. [laughter] >> Yeah, because we're both from Philly and we're both scholars.
>> Exactly. you know, just kicking it. Go birds, you know, >> go birds. That's it. [laughter] >> All true. I I I've admired your work from afar for a long time. Um I've appreciated what you bring to the table.
>> Thank you.
>> And how you help us think and you challenge us uh to really be better and and to move differently in the world.
Mhm.
>> But then about two weeks ago, I'm a co-host of Joe Button podcast and we had uh Dr. Cheyenne Bryant on the podcast.
Um Dr. Bryant I know I consider her a friend, certainly a good colleague. I I like her a great deal. She came on the show. I didn't stay for the whole episode because I had to I had to run out. Um it was my day off. But we had there was some spirited dialogue happening when I left. When I got back home, I heard more of the spirited dialogue. There were lots of people out in the world uh agreeing, co-signing, clapping, and disagreeing, pushing back against things that were said. But one thing that came up in particular was her conversation about not uh getting licensed or I'm sorry, that's not true about why she is no longer licensed.
>> Uh you offered a response to that.
>> Yes. Um, can you just put us in I almost want to let me see if I can pull this up because I I I you know what you here I don't need that tell us what was your response and why.
>> Uh my significant issue was was the statement that you only um individuals only have keep their licenses or get a license or obtain a license to bill insurance.
um and stating that it was just solely a billing strategy. And uh that is wholeheartedly untrue. Uh and my biggest concern is more so with the fact that when it comes to mental health and well-being and it comes to access to resources, I always want everyone to have informed consent. Right? The way I always describe it to my students is like if there are three options and a doctor only provides you with two options and you choose one of the two, that's not informed consent because you didn't get information on all the options. So whether it is like therapy or whether it is coaching or community um support groups or medication like the most important thing especially when it comes to I specialize in black health and wellbeing the black community is making sure we're being clear about what that actually is and that's wholeheartedly untrue as a as a licensed mental health professional. I'm a psychologist um and I have a bachelor's and masters in psych. I have a master's and a PhD in medical and clinical psych.
I did an internship in posttock um at Johns Hopkins University and after that I was able to sit for my lensure exam um and it does not mean like one of the most important things is a license does not stop people from harming just like not having a license doesn't mean that you can't help individuals which is important for informed consent um but it really means that we have a regulatory body right like when it comes to if um I am having dual relationships with my client whether that can be a romantic relationship or I'm over here asking them for secrets about like the stock market and stuff like that. Whether it is I've broken confidentiality and shared their information with other individuals, which is incredibly important. Um whether it's um using harmful practices like conversion therapy or something like that. I have someone that you can report to. You can very easily look up my license, report me to the board, it could be a fine, it could be, you know, incarceration. It could be a lot of things.
>> Wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute. This this is interesting. So, you're my therapist and I am, I don't know, a a police officer >> or or a judge >> and I'm asking you to hook me. You're asking me to hook you up.
>> Yeah.
>> I have a certain dependency on you because it's power dynamic. So, I'm I'm fixing all your tickets.
>> Yep.
>> That ain't right. And at some point, I realize that ain't right.
>> You might though. You might not, though, because it's like, well, they they they help me so much. Like she helps me every single week and all she's doing is asking me to like not give her a ticket.
Like >> seems fair.
>> What's going to seems like it's a it should be a it should be a reciprocal relationship, right? Like we're helping each other. There's that you may not even realize the power dynamic and you may be you're just trying so hard.
>> For sure. For sure. I'm just saying. But let's say I do realize it and you're licensed. You're saying I can call somebody.
>> Oh yeah.
>> But if you're not, I can't call anybody. That feels like >> that feels like out. It's like if I were a restaurant owner and I decide well I I don't I'm not with the Better Business Bureau. It's like like I'm not with the health department. Like >> don't you have to sign up with these people?
>> Not if you're No. If you're licensed, yes, that's part of like who you're licensed with. But if you're say you're a coach there, you can decide to like there are some ways that you can be certified, but you don't have to. Like you anyone can state that they're a coach. Anyone can't state that you're a licensed mental health professional.
>> I get it. So if I'm a prof a mental health professional, I have to be licensed. I can't opt out.
>> But if I use the word life coach, I can or career coach or relationship coach, whatever.
>> That that's the workaround. The workaround is just saying you're not that thing. You give it name something else.
>> Yeah. There's no regulatory body on coaching. People can take the take the um there are like certain ways that you it's not certified, but like there's like the International Coaching Federation and there's the National Board of Health and Wellness and Coaching. you can decide to go through that like credentiing ecosystem, but it's voluntary. Um, you can just decide that like, oh, I'm really good at problem solving. I problem solve my problems. I problem solve my husband's problems, my friend's problems. I'm a problem solving coach. Like, I just that's what I do. Um, there's no regulatory body on that. You can say that whenever you want.
>> Here's what I'm and and I don't want to spend too much time on Dr. Bryant because this isn't about her, but it's just a good example. Um, but she is self-identified as a therapist, as a as a as a psychologist. So, when she's given the advice, doesn't that give at least the impression that this is mental health professional work happening?
>> Yeah. But that's not but that's like that's one of the biggest issues I have.
Like the the biggest I think some people took from the video um if they weren't familiar with my work because if anyone's familiar with me, they know I cake for coaches all day. I'm like, "Yeah, like there are fantastic coaches out there." Um, but there's no coach worth worth their salt that won't be like starting off even when like most of them do it in their consultation. Just a heads up. I am a coach like that I am not a therapist like in I want to tell you the difference. Additionally, if we get to a point where I feel like this is outside of coaching and this is outside and it's into therapy, I'm going to give you a referral. Like every coach I know who does coaching, that's what they do.
Um, the issue is the same way that there is no regulatory body on the aspect of coaching. I don't particularly know what a psychology expert is. like I don't like that's not >> there's no regulatory body on that.
Also, therapy and being a therapist, therapist is more so a category. It's like as a psychologist, as a licensed professional counselor, as a licensed clinical social worker, as a licensed marriage and the family therapist, as a psychiatrist, as a psychiatric nurse practitioner, these are all people who are licensed and they can conduct therapy. It's a it's like an umbrella term, but all of those individuals are licensed. You cannot call yourself a a therapist if you are not a licensed mental health professional. Um, so that is an issue and even in some states it's actually illegal to refer to yourself that way. Like if me if I am not a licensed clinical psychologist, I cannot refer to myself as a psychologist because that's a protected term. It's understood that lensure comes with that.
Um, so that's just not that's just not how that works.
>> Even if you have the degree.
>> No, if you have the degree, you're seen you're a doctor. Like and I think I mentioned this in the video too, like you can have a doctorate in literature and then be a licensed professional counselor and you're still a doctor.
like you got your doctorate but your title was licensed professional counselor. I always tell people to look at not only the the what the degree is in but also the actual credentials because if you have a doctor you're a doctor. Um but doesn't really >> but that make you a therapist.
>> Yeah. That doesn't make you a therapist.
That's the biggest thing. So it's it's more so about like well if it's not you know if it's not a big deal and if it's if it's if it doesn't mean anything in terms of certifications then just say what it actually is you know. Um there's nothing wrong with that. My whole issue is with just the integrity of just talking about the differences in the roles and not confusing people when it comes down to it because that can be really conf most people don't know the difference in credentials versus lensure like there are many people who have credentials and they used to be Dr. Phil is a really big example of this. He used to be licensed, no longer licensed.
People talk about like how he had his show. His show was entertainment. Like he wasn't providing therapy, but that was also confusing for a lot of people because a lot of people would be like, "Oh, I thought he was a licensed mental health professional." No, he goes on TV and does therapy. It's not like um what's it couples therapy with Dr. Ora?
Dr. Ora on couples therapy. She's doing therapy. [laughter] It's like >> got it. But this where it gets tricky for me because doc Dr. Phil um as you said he was licensed at one point.
>> He was licensed at one point. Very easily verifiable. It's not very difficult to look up licenses. Like I've never had an issue with that. It's very clear that he was licensed and what the what the reasoning behind the license not being there anymore. I have no idea.
Um because unless you're actually in the room, you're it's not possible to know unless the person specifically states whether they decided to no longer be licensed. what a lot of which a lot of professionals do because it's like oh I'm doing research I'm not practicing anymore I can just I don't need to maintain it. Um or it could be the fact that they lost their license [laughter] and it's just like oh you had an issue with dual relationship so you can no longer be licensed and you can no longer practice under a license anymore. It's like okay cool I'm be a coach which you can like you can easily do that there's nothing illegal about that >> but is it unethical? Yes, [laughter] it is. If you're not being honest about it, like it it is. And but there's also like it's unethical, but your ethics and morality are different. It's like you can just be like, "Well, I'm not practicing in the same thing." And it's nobody's business what happened to my license. I'm not practicing as a licensed mental health professional. I'm practicing as a coach. Like there's no there's no system of account. It's up to your level of morality and ethics. And we all know everyone's very, you know, different in what that looks like. Um I get nervous I get nervous when I hear that doc because if I say to somebody I mean I say it even with me right if I go on television I'm not an economist >> but if they say you know Dr. Mark Hills here to discuss, you know, the collapse of the Chinese economy. He's a professor at such and such such. It's implicit for people or at least assumed for people maybe, you know, >> that they can appeal to my expertise and that the and that they're naming my credentials because they matter.
>> Yeah.
>> They don't in this case. I don't know.
[ __ ] >> Yeah. I always state like I always say like this is any I put stuff online and this is psycho education. This is not a relationship with licensed Mal professional because you know because if it was you would receive an invoice from me and I am not losing my license for anybody. So I always state that like when I'm sharing resources anything because I don't want any aspects of confusion because it's not therapy and also like psycho education me providing information that's not therapy. That's that's I don't have a one-on-one relationship with you. When people are like oh diagnosis wise you are not my patient. I cannot diagnose you. Um, I always talk about the limits of what that looks like because it's not that's not therapy. And I think that's where people get confused. But I think a lot of people get confused because people think therapy is simply like advice and checklists and it's like folk wisdom.
And it is not that. Like it's it's it's science is it's u me looking at what happened in the past and the present.
It's coming up with goals. It's conceptualizing your case. It's doing assessments. It's not like the one hour.
The one hour in session is honestly the the most fun hour there is. But there's so much work we do before and after.
Like if it was just like, man, we get to kick it for 50 minutes. I get to, you know, we get to see what happened. But no, I'm doing case consultation. We done assessments. You didn't do your homework. Now I got to look at whether that like what that is. Like, you know, we're doing a lot of things. And I think there's just a misconception of what therapy is, especially for the black community because when we really had that much access to it, like the the the system could be the feds for real. So, you know, like it's not like >> we have that much experience with therapy or trusting the health care system or somebody who looks like us who can also talk about like, "No, this is what this really is." They using a $20 word. This is what it is. This just means that like I can't share your stuff. Like, it's just our relationship with the healthare system is different.
And it it should be >> it should be. And I want to go there, but I was thinking about this pop culture piece of it because I'm thinking about Dr. Phil. I'm thinking about uh these MTV shows, VH1 shows. Yeah.
Where, you know, where therapy is presented in a certain kind of way. Um I think about Woody Allen movies. I mean, there's a way that we've come to understand therapy the way therapy has been represented. Some ways healthy and positive, some ways rendering it completely inaccessible to us. Like I grew up thinking that therapy wasn't for me for the reasons you just described.
>> Yeah.
Um, do we what does the world miss about therap what do we get wrong about therapy based on what we see on movies and TV and and and other forms of pop culture?
>> Um, I would say one, most of us don't have couches. I mean, we can't even afford [laughter] like like everybody like, "Oh, the couch." And I'm like, "Right." Um, I got a chair that I got from my mom's house. Um, >> good point. I know couch.
>> There's that. Um, I think one of the main reasons why uh people and also like the aspect of being able to tell people what to do, um, it would be great. It would be great if I could just be like, um, stop seeing that woman. Every time you see her on Saturday, you mad till Wednesday and I see you on Thursday and you still kind of piss. Like, I wish I could just say, stop seeing her.
>> I have to say, have you noticed, uh, you know, a relationship between the time you spent with this individual and the change in your mood? And then if they say no, I'll be like, "Okay, well, here's you know, like it's not like I can say >> you really can't say that or it's just not good."
>> No, I'm talking about I can't say that's not that's not First of all, I would say most of the time given our training like we see we can see a significant aspect of what the issue might be before then. Um, but that's not my job like to tell you what to do because first of all, me telling you like this is the issue, who am I to we only been working together for a year and stuff like that. So that can also be pushy. I think it crosses a line and you need to come to this yourself. Like what we're working on is problem solving skills. I'm not about to just tell you what to do cuz at the end of the day, if you notice a certain change in your mood after spending time with this individual and it's a negative like you have the emotional residue of spending time with this person, it's just like a nasty aftertaste. You feel bad about yourself and others. If you have the muscle memory of that, um, instead of me telling you that, not only will you know in the future not to be around this person, but you'll be more cognizant of the fact that that emotional residue comes up with other individuals because you came to that yourself. And then you're more likely to be able to use that to be like, "Yeah, I've been here before. I'm not a fan." Um, this is not like what thrive like what thrives relationship wise. So like telling people what to do, it's just not a thing. Like it just doesn't it doesn't work. And it can work for But life coaches would do that, right? Maybe.
Yeah, I feel like it comes up differently, right? Like, so if I had like a client who, >> I don't know, like a high achieving client who was having issues and they had like fear of speaking up in meetings or something like that and they mention like, okay, my my dad was like really critical growing up and sometimes I still hear that voice, right? Like let's say a coach sees that and a psychologist sees that because there are people who have both. A coach will likely stay in the present and acknowledge the insight like that's a really powerful connection you just made. Um, but they'll redirect likely to behavior and they'll talk about goals. What do you want to do next time in the meeting when you have a fear of speaking up? They may help you build a premeating ritual or you know practice speaking and stuff like that. Um, in the future might do assertiveness training.
Um but uh when it comes down to a psychologist like I'm going to look at the the comment of the fact that you have listed the fact that you have an internalized negative belief of uh the fact that there's a limiting voice every single time you this comes up and it's your parents voice and I want to talk about like what does it say? When's the first time you heard that voice? How does your body respond to that voice? Um I may formally assess you for anxiety disorder and we may work through like a trauma informed framework. Um use some some different aspects of therapy. a muscle liberation psychologist. Um that the promotion is likely going to come secondary, you know, as a high achieving person to the un the underlying patterns of it, right? And this is a perfect example of how working in tandem can be fantastic. Um but the coach is going to work more so with like the conscious and the goal- directed aspect of it. But in the same issue as a psychologist, I'm going to look at the unconscious and the developmental and the possibly like the pathological when it comes down to it.
So like we just we would just see the issue. we would just see it differently.
>> But it would also they would both be helpful though. Like it doesn't mean that like one is less helpful than the other. It doesn't mean that they can't work in t tangible.
>> Okay. Because >> I I I'm you're really schooling me here because I worry that not worried. I assumed there's a small part of me that assumed that a coach was like a BOOTLEG THERAPIST.
>> NO, THEY LIKE I THINK THIS IS and this is why I be trying to tell people like listen a good coach is a good coach.
you're like, "Y'all, it's I think I think the same way I tell individuals like I always tell my students this because I also train clinicians and undergrads. It's very easy to be bad at your job.
>> It just is. Um, it's easy to to be bad at any role. It's easy to because you have to put forth a lot of effort. And as a licensed mental health professional, it's easy to be a a bad licensed mental health professional, especially as a like a black person.
We're trained in these individualistic westernized frameworks that I don't even subscribe to. Um, a lot of times individuals don't take it upon themselves to do additional training to work with the people that they're actually going to see. If I wanted to only train in private practice, European-American, likely like middle to upper class individuals, my entire training, which is like a lot of training. We have to do 2,000 hours internship, posttock, not to mention like the thousand hours before even getting to internship or posttock. I could easily do that. I can stick with the books. I can do the internships and the externships where we train and do therapy and stick with that one population. and some people choose to do that. So, it's easy to have this limited thought process of how this will work with historically excluded populations or individuals pushed to the margins.
It's easy to be bad at that as a licensed therapist. And I would think that it's also easy to be bad as a as a as a coach. It would be easy for you to change your disclaimer and not mention the difference between therapy and coaching. It would be easy for you to like have different morals and ethics and decide that like no, I'm going to tiptoe into like the therapy realm. It's it's a it's a human-based thing. Like it's easy for us to be bad at anything which is why I state that like it's important to interview and like therapists. It's important to interview coaches like where did your expertise come from? Where did you learn how to do this? I think a lot of times there are some realms where people will use the aspect of like oh I'm a celebrity so and so. I don't personally find that helpful because it kind of plays on the aspect of there's this whole thought process if like a certain celebrity trusts you then other people will I'm more likely to trust you. Social proof is this whole it's a pretty common concept in psychology. It's like it's the tendency for people to just >> assume that something is right or credible or safe or valuable because a lot of people support it or a famous person supports it. So instead of thinking about it in terms of like oh like celebrities support me it would be something as a psychologist I would be like I work with a lot of individuals who um struggle with lack of anonymity or the symptoms that may present in in in celebrities as significant aspects of anxiety like going more with the issue.
I would tell people to be more concerned about that like why is that what are we playing on when it comes to talking about celebrity instead of talking about the presenting issue right? If somebody has like a a a million followers and then like a blue check or brand deals and stuff like that, it's actually people unconsciously start assuming that like they must know what they're talking about even if they don't. So I always tell people when it comes to licensed mental health professionals or coaches, ask where their expertise comes from.
Ask about like what think about like what they're thinking of. And somebody mentioned parasocial relationships.
That's a really big thing, too, because they're like one-sided emotional relationships where followers feel deeply connected to a creator who does not actually know them personally. And that emotional connection will like lower skepticism. So now disagreement with that person, even if you don't fully buy in, it feels personal. And then like criticism may feel like betrayal. And if you see someone having accountability for that person, it may look like hate. And that's that's understandable in psych. Like we're wired to belong. We're wired to seek safety in groups. We're wired to follow status. We're wired to want certainty.
And social media very much platforms, it rewards confidence, not really accuracy.
Like it's not rewarding integrity. Like most of the most viral posts. I have had so many helpful posts. I have I [laughter] like I'm always sharing resource uh capacity building. Here's another free resource. Here's 19 therapists. This is the one.
>> Yeah. Even my messy ass ain't call you to this. like this is the one and it's just like this is okay. Well, y'all do y'all do know I be sharing free stuff all the time and I I specialize with black people and I always openly state that which is a big deal online because you know I'm a professor. I'm like doing all this but it is helpful because it brings people to to free resources and stuff I share. But it's also as a psychologist it's understandable like it's not like it's not understandable. I just encourage people to challenge that.
Even with me, like if you're looking at something, I tell people who follow me, you going to disagree with one of my takes. Like I'm I'm sure. Um, and that's okay. But if you feel as though like what I'm doing is limiting your critical thinking. I tell people like ask yourself, would you believe this >> if somebody who had 200 followers said it, right? Because if you got to think about that and like, have I researched this myself? Don't don't ever as black people I understand like social media is a system and we're thinking about healthcare and stuff like that but we have always been a people who have had to educate ourselves and care for ourselves and research things for ourselves. Don't let that stop now. Like my I was educated in school but I was also educated at home to be like what did what did they what did they tell you about this you know with the the emancipation proclam like what Abraham who like you know like he actually wanted us to go to a different country like that's the only you know like so that has always been the way that we have gotten by. Don't let social media stop that. Don't act like we haven't always had to educate ourselves and look stuff up. Make sure these people like black people. That's always been something we've had to do.
>> Don't stop now. [laughter] >> I I'm being dramatic when I ask has social media killed therapy, but I >> Oh my god. [laughter] >> I'mma say this with the confidence of a man who's untrained, which is >> Oh, well, okay. See, and even that disclaimer is helpful, guys.
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's that's our specialty.
I'm a man who knows nothing about this topic, but I'm gonna say it with confidence. Um, no it it I have just watched social media destroy so many pos or maybe not destroy I'm being dramatic undermine >> the possibility of good mental health uh treatment care provision etc. And I and I'll tell you why what I mean by that. And it connects to the coaches versus um therapist thing.
>> Um because there have always been celebrity therapists, celebrity counselors, celebrity coaches, celebrity hosts who have doctor in their name and they just give advice and and you know fool us.
>> But with social media, there's so many more of them.
>> Yeah. There's so there's so uh widespread on the landscape.
Um the birth of the podcast.
>> Yeah.
>> One one of the worst things that's ever happened in human history has now given everybody a microphone and an outlet and an audience. And even if the audience is 50, 50 is a lot of people to give bad advice to.
>> It is. Cuz those 50 will talk to everybody at dinner and be like, "Did you know?" And it's just like, "I didn't." because it's not real, you know. [laughter] >> Right. And then on the other hand, I hear therapy language used so often.
>> It's like the there's the word of the year, you know, one year is narcissist, one year is gaslighting, one year is >> I hate those words as well. I really do.
>> They drive me. You hate them, too?
>> I really I very much do. Um, I mean that's why that's why most of the time like a lot of the time my posts are like just trying to provide education, but even like I used to have this series that's like you're using that word wrong, right? Um like you're using that word wrong. Uh it'll be something like OCD or it'll be something like um antisocial and talking about the impact of that. And even with narcissism, some people are just jerks, y'all. Like for real, like some people are just jerks, right? Like narcissism is a diagnosis.
And when it comes down to it, I can understand why people like very much cling to those things because it's like, okay, so now I have a group of individuals who have also overcome narcissism and now I have a support. I know what to look for when it comes to overcoming this. So there's also the aspect of there, we're always going to want to cleave to community. And that title does give people the opportunity to be like, okay, I know what to look for. Um, but when people are like more so and also like it's not I can't diagnose, you know, your ex. Does he sound like a jerk? Yeah, man. Like that is wild. I don't even know how you standing up right now, you know? Like that sounds crazy. But like I can only really talk about like the impact of what that had on you, how to recognize it in the future, how do we grow from that, how do you forgive yourself for like seeing the signs, not seeing the signs, you know, things of that nature. Um the diagnosis doesn't matter as much as that to me of that person because I can't diagnose them as the impact of that person having it on that had on you. I can't diagnose them. Um it's it's not possible in the first place.
>> Would it be so is it improper? Because I have friends I have I gota think of two home girls in particular >> who have gone to their therapist and their therapist has said yeah your ex is a narcissist that's why you behave.
>> There's no way to do that though like I mean like I'm sorry [laughter] my mom's going to be like fix your face there. It's not possible to do that though. Like so like when it comes to assessment I know a lot of individuals will be like what happens with an assessment? So, let me just like so as a psychologist, uh psychologists are the individuals who are equipped to complete like full assessments and batteries on things. Let's just say I've worked with youth and adults because I have hundreds and thousands of assessments. My assessments look like, for example, say I'm working with someone and we're looking at anxiety or depression. Say they're a youth. Um not only am I giving um checklists and um uh uh assessments to the teacher, I'm giving them to the child and I'm giving them to the parent.
I'm doing an interview with the parents.
I'm doing an interview with the child.
I'm doing an interview with the teacher.
Um, it's also two days most likely of assessments of that battery and I think it's typically we typically get out like three hours each day in addition to getting all the things that I got from the parents and compiling the um interview. Then I come up with like a 30 page 20 to 30 page document and talking about [clears throat] what each assessment talked about, what got spiked, what didn't.
>> In addition to the fact that I'm a clinical psychologist, but also a liberation psychologist, which is something that makes I think it very difficult for black people to come to therapy in the first place because we don't feel seen. Not only am I looking at like the symptoms, but the symptoms are the last thing I look at as a liberation psychologist. I'm looking at systemic conditions which lead to structural pressures which lead to community survival patterns which lead to family adaptation which leads to individual behaviors which leads to symptoms. It's not the fact that you have an anger management issue or you have a hypervigilance issue. You have a justified response to an oppressive environment that has always attacked you and the people that look like you know like that that's very different right that's d that is not it's not possible to do that from afar. So, I would say that is a grossly unethical to attempt to assess someone that is not your client. But even assessments like it takes it takes a significant amount of time. Like that's not something that I do. You can't take it lightly. Um and then it's also it takes like I'm doing you know ADHD like I'm doing bad questions. I'm giving you like puzzles and stuff you got to do. Like it's very much like intricate. So it's not it is and then it's also like as a licensed professional like that's something I could like lose my license on. Like they they I would be reported for that. like, "Oh, I was told that they they can report me to my board because that's not what we're allowed to do." And that's something that's very clear and obvious in training. Like, well, what gave you the qualifications to provide this assessment to the individual? Did you speak to the individual? Oh, you got it from stuff from the person that they told you. That's not how it works, >> right? So, I would focus as the clinician on >> and I would straight up say my clients would be I'd be like, "Once again, I'm not diagnosing this person. I know that's what you want me to do. It's not happening, girl. It's not happening today." But what we can talk about is like how that impacted you. We can talk about the the relationship the way it impacted the way you see yourself and the way you see others and it's the way you see the world and possible next romantic relationship. We can talk about recognizing the signs in the future. We can talk about how that's impacting your self-worth and we could talk about how to move forward. Um but focusing it doesn't it it never helps to hinge your healing on another person because that person can drop dead tomorrow and what you just not going to forgive yourself.
What you you just never it never works that way. A lot of times people will talk about closure and cons, you know, when it comes to breakups and I said the only closure I believe in is like is if we talk about wigs because at the end of the day um there's nothing that person can say or do when it comes down to it to increase your forgiveness. And there you don't have to forgive someone to heal. The only person you have to forgive is yourself, right? For seeing the signs or not seeing the signs, staying too long, leaving too early.
It's about yourself. your he your therapy cannot hinge on someone else because even if say you're the offender because offenders go to therapy too and you're like oh I did so much better and I came back to this person I apologize and they can still be like that's good I'm glad you did that for you I still want nothing to do with you because the impact of being in that relationship with you or being in contact with you has done enough damage and that's their choice right but did you do it for them or did you do it for you so I I very much talk about that but it's not possible for me to you're not you know how long how hard I work for this to get it and then keep it. Do you academia is like elitist and mad racist? I you know literally after having my dissertation I walked off stage and delivered my first child. I am doing continue education credits. I'm in all these states. I am not losing [laughter] my license for anyone. I worked really really hard on this and it really helps me to operate within a system that is not in like that has many fallacies but trying to work with it in the system and even in the way I pathize things even in the fact that I talk about centering black people when I was training I was told that I could not specialize in black people of African Caribbean descent I was told it was not a specialty >> wow >> and that's like a very big thing so I >> for them specialties would be like you know children teens adoles But like they also make it like they'll be like children, adolescence, couples. There'll be like personality disorders, anxiety, but the your mental health is inextricably linked with the way the world treats you. And nobody treats black people the same. Nobody has individual the same history with this country, oppressive tactics in the past, in the future, in the present. When it comes down to it, that is a specialty.
So I had to do additional training. I had to do additional um uh uh sites.
Like you typically do like one site a year. I typically would do like two.
like I would have to do additional do because I'm like this is who I want to work with. Like this is a specialty. Um it takes a lot of hustle to do stuff like that. And that's why black people don't see themselves in it, right? Like I also always state like I'm a psychologist. I have a psychologist. But I do want people to understand that therapy does not have a monopoly on healing. Therapy cannot convince you that there is a safety that doesn't exist, right? It doesn't neutralize oppressive symptoms. It doesn't eliminate the threat. A therapist can help you when it comes to surviving the weak. But I always state no matter what path you take to healing, whether it's therapy or community or activism, it's going to be paved with community.
Therapists will help you survive the week. Possibly, community helps you survive the system. Individual healing has limits when the harm is collective.
And the harm when it comes to black people is collective. So therapy is like one tool. But mutual aid and community and kinship, that's the rest of the toolkit. And for black people, it always has been. So you you can't therapize your way out of a system. You can you can organize, you can gather, you can build. Therapy supports the work, but it doesn't replace it. And I think one of the reasons why a lot of people may not feel seen when it comes to therapy is because people don't acknowledge that.
It's not my job to help you box breathe your way out of oppression. It's my job to help you fight the oppressive systems and that have been injected inside of you and talk about that outside of systems. But that's also liberation psychology. And that's not >> that's why I wanted to go because because what you're describing to me don't sound like psychology. I understand it. You know, as >> Yeah. as a social scientist and an activist, you know, I I think about society. I think about systems and structures, >> you know, and when I think about psychology, I always think about the self.
>> I always think about the individual, >> but you're doing something different here.
>> Yeah. Very like so like individual African and Caribbean descent and honestly most people of the global majority, we're not individualistic people. I actually don't really believe in individual wellness because community has always been the key thing with everything. Um, but liberation psychology is the understanding that I always say it's the epitome of understanding psychology in context.
Like you can't fully understand someone's mental health if you ignore the world that they're living in. Um, so we have to consider identity and oppression and culture and community and power and systems alongside individual experiences. However, when you think about the way that most of us are trained when it comes to therapy and our training, it's individualistic westernized therapy. That is not this, right? It's not the fact that we are born in silos. And that makes sense for the typical client. The typical client is a European American middle to upper class man or woman. The systems have always served them. So thinking about community and power and oppression is isn't isn't the same when it comes to the dynamic, right? It emphasizes culturally grounded care and critical consciousness and collective well-being and the role of psychology and promoting liberation and humanization and which is a very big thing because black people have always been dehumanized, right? So, I'm not focusing just on the symptoms because once again, like the symptoms is like the last part after systemic conditions and structural pressures.
Like, as black people, we're very good at adaptation. So, a lot of the things that people are deciding to pathize for black people are very much the adaptability and the survival of living in an oppressive state, right? And we can honor the fact that they got us here, but we can also talk about the fact that they're not going to get us much farther, right? So, like I'm not focusing just on symptoms. I'm also looking at social and cultural and systemic conditions shaping people's well-being. Um, and I'm able to do that because that's what I've always focused on. In my research, I focus on black identity development and my publications are on that. Um, my community programs for um, black men and black women when it comes to community support and liberation based ecosystems. My I train licensed mental health professionals and continuing education courses and my courses are like liberation psychology and anti-racist and anti-opressive care.
Um, social media like is very much that um, in terms of the black experience.
undergrad. I teach psychology of the black experience and I teach liberation and I teach mental health, hiphop, music and activism and I teach decolonizing methods. Like it very much every single thing I do is black and black mental health and black liberation like everything.
>> So yeah, >> I I'm thinking about what your colleagues must say and by your colleagues I mean the white ones.
>> I don't have now I have now I always talk about Dr. Hill the difference between peers and colleagues. Now there are people that are in my space and peers it's like okay we have the same degree.
>> Yes.
>> But that doesn't mean you know we cool for real like that doesn't mean we have the we got to have the same values and stuff to be a colleague. So I do have peers I have more you know I have more European American peers than colleagues I >> I would imagine. So so I'm thinking about them European-American >> academic peers, professional [clears throat] peers.
I would imagine [clears throat] that part of what they would say about you based on what you just described >> is that you have an agenda.
>> I do though.
>> I do have an agenda.
>> No, no doubt. And they would say I think just based on what they say in every other field.
>> Mhm. um that you have a professional duty that has to be disentangled to that to that patient or to patients at large that could be compromised by you having a political agenda and and liberation of black people would be considered a political agenda. So >> yeah, >> how do you how do you respond? How do you make sense of that? How do you respond to that?
>> Yeah, liberation psychology wasn't even created by a black person. It was created by Dr. Martin Borrow um who was I believe it's El Salvador. Um so it wasn't created by a black person. It's not solely about um race and ethnicity. It's about the the being the therapy and the the modality of the people of the oppressed individuals. Um I'm at a H.B.CU. So most of my uh uh European-American peers and colleagues in um my H.B.CU are with it, you know, like they they wouldn't be with it without >> Yeah. So like it does make it easier.
Like I have never had that any issue with my peers. If anything, they probably just have an issue with my directness and like loudness. I'm from Philly and like I'm not working on it.
So like that's just what it is, you know? But like I'm always the person who says the quiet part out loud. Um but I I would say >> the that is the the agenda. I I would state that like when it comes down to it uh working with individuals uh in this realm, I'm not therapy is political.
That's another thing when it comes down to it. Like the the the way that we get trained is to be like a blank slate.
>> Like therapy is not political. It has nothing to do with it. Right.
>> When I tell you my heart would be broken if I known that my psychologist voted for Trump. It's I would my heart would be broken.
>> That's a good example. [laughter] That's a good example.
That's a great example. So you're sitting you let's say you have a patient um they come in maybe they might they might may or may not be wearing that red my hat but >> as you talk they probably would be >> that's fair. That's right.
>> Yeah.
>> Can you effectively treat them? Because if if you were a a physician doing you know doing an annual checkup and they came with a MAGA hat, you'd have to treat them the same.
If you were an emergency room surgeon, >> you know, and someone came in with with a clan uniform on and needed a heart transplant, you couldn't slow it down, right? You >> know, are you thinking of that picture?
That picture with where it's all those black people helping that uh that person in um the clan uniform.
>> Oh, I I I forgot that actually. See, we we so different. Yeah. I I [laughter] wouldn't didn't even cross. That's a real I have seen that you mentioned that. Mh.
>> Um, and then it was always the um, well, anyway, it's a whole other story.
But, but so I get that like there's a duty as a medical doctor to say do no harm.
>> I have to do my best for you and what I think about you doesn't matter at all.
And it can't inform the treatment I give. Um, and there's a way that we're sort of taught in general as as people who provide a service to people as business owners, whatever. You can't treat people different based on what they believe. I can't give you a different service in my supermarket or my bookstore or whatever.
>> Yeah.
>> As a psychologist, this gets tricky if you're talking about a political vision of liberation and the person and the client ain't got that.
>> Well, yeah, but also like in the medical field like them saying that that's a lie. I mean like at the end of the day like the m the maternal mortality rate of black women is is what is it three four times um higher than European American women despite education and if it's there they're not receiving the same care it's because the biases that are impacted within their brain are impacting their assessment and their likelihood to listen to us when it comes to our pain. So people who will say that be like I can't treat you differently.
You are we're dying in droves. So like when people say that I'm like that's a lie. It's >> but it's at least an aspiration right? I mean I'm not >> aspiration but they're not doing a good job at it. Dr. like, you know, I'm not I'm not >> Oh, yeah. I aspire to this. Yeah, you're not good at it. So, like I I don't even when people try to acknowledge that. I feel like that that's a fallacy. You can't When when I'm working with my students and we're talking in training, I'm like, do you feel as though you can appropriately assess someone that you are afraid of? Do you think that you can appropriately assess someone that you don't deem as human? Do you think that you can appropriately assess someone with a diagnosis um where you have never thought to understand their um their perspective? Right? There's a reason why my dissertation was on um the diagnostic disparities of black youth with effective disorders like anxiety and depression versus behavioral disorders and conduct and stuff like that. And there was a huge disparity. Black people were black youth were four times more likely to get a behavioral disorder. And the reason why that's so important is because when it comes to psychology, it's not like it's as simple as like a blood test or you know we're doing like labs. I am the assessor. You are you have the limitation to the amount of attention like information that I take in. That's why I literally get paid to be a professional nerd. It's like the best job in the world, right? Um, but you have the limits of my education. So, there's many times where black youth would transition to me and they have like a conduct or behavioral disorder and they clearly had PTSD. The difference between that clinician and me was not the fact that we had a different degree. We had the same degree, but I also read up on the the man the presentation of symptoms in black youth.
and understanding the expectation of black youth, especially young black men, to express emotions in like a woowoo touchyfey way when our emotions have never been seen as safe for black men in the first place. So not looking at what that behavioral looks like or not looking at what may be under it. So they are getting behavioral disorder and I'm like this person this child has PTSD, you guys have lost your mind, right?
Therapy is very different and when it comes down to it, there is the aspect of do no harm. But if do you honestly I always tell individuals to think about do you think that you can objectively provide care to someone who does not see you as human and that you have to think about the moral and ethics of that because individuals deserve ethical care. They deserve to be helped but if I cannot provide you with ethical care as a person the limits of the fact that you are overtly overtly racist or say I was queer and you are overtly homophobic you deserve care from someone who can actually help you work from that. I cannot do that. So there's also justification for stating that like Let me let me pause you for a minute because this is interesting. So So the white supremacists who don't see you as human now I guess someone I get why you would have a you shouldn't feel a duty to treat that person and they should >> but do they just end up with a white supremacist THERAPIST ULTIMATELY?
>> NO. THERE are there so like um as someone who specialized a lot in like black identity models like there are black identity models like there is um the William Cross model who like shout out to Temple because he published on Temple Press goes my mommy went to Temple um I used I grew up going to their step shows and stuff like that um there's also uh the the sellers model and things like that but there's also a model of white identity development and I think it's important to think about it this way like I know a lot of individuals talk about like their specialties as a black clinician I specialize in black health and well-being. Like that's how it's going to be all day. Um, and having the experience not only academically, but the lived experience, but as like a European-American person, and there's so many people who are stating that they're in this field and they're trying to break down this aspect of privilege and supremacy and stuff like that, make that your specialty.
>> You are going to get more buyin as someone who has lived in this world of being like, man, Genevie is wild, girl.
Cuz like I have benefited from this white privilege my whole life, but did you know this is not good? Oh my god.
like you're like destroying stuff. I've trained in this. Let's talk about this.
You gonna get more buying than me being like, "Girl, you must be out of your mind if YOU THINK I'M, YOU KNOW, like [laughter] you get empathy." Like the same way I specialize in this, there are people who can specialize in this as well. I always think about the limits when it comes to capability and accessibility, but like I one of the reasons why I started this training anti-racism, anti-opressive care, with my colleague Dr. Han Ren is because we did a she's on Tik Tok and I'm on Tik Tok and there was a therapist in training who was complaining because their supervisor told them that they had to work with like an objectively like overtly racist patient and they were like every single time I do therapy with this patient like it's like I have a really tough time. We're doing supervision like I'm over here trying to regulate my breathing while I'm in session with this person. It's really hard for me to work with this person and my supervisor is saying I have to work with this person. And I said I was never trained like that. Like think about it.
are you you're over here trying to regulate your breathing. You're not listening to the client. You're not able to help them. And that is more helpful than them being transferred to someone else. That doesn't make any sense. Now, it's one thing if it's like someone the isms like racism, homophobia, but it's a different thing if it's like a clam member like I mean like the Helms Janet Helms, Dr. Janet Helms, the the white identity model. She's like she's a phenom when it comes to mental health and well-being and things like that. And then there's Dr. Robert Sers and Sers and Cross and stuff like that. I'm sorry. Not citations are love letters to black community. So, I do have to like Dr. Jana Helms. [laughter] >> I love I love a good citation. That's why we had office hours, you know?
>> Yeah. But like that's a that's a um that's just a very big thing. And when you think about the ethics and do no harm, you also have to think about like what does that actually look like? If I'm in session and I literally am trying to I I can't focus because like I'm over here trying to um just not think about like the racist statements, how am I helping that person? How would you justify being in session and charging this person money for you basically doing box breeding the whole session?
How do you justify that? And also clients want to know who the heck is treating them, who they're giving their money to. There's so little to it. I get asked who I voted for, tell them willingly. I will say that people who don't say it, typically they already know who you voted for. So like you can't hide it. Like when you don't answer, they already are like it's a no.
>> Um it's one of the reasons why I tell people like you ask for a consultation session when it comes to licensed mental health professionals. I don't know if coaches do that, but asking coach is like, "Where does your expertise come from?" Right? Because once again, one of the most important things that's understanding when it comes to training and um credentiing is all of the hours of work that I had before I even got licensed. If a coach or a therapist, it's not possible for a licensed therapist to only know what worked for them because there are credentiing systems in in place. But if a coach only knows what worked for him, you're getting one path. if they've worked with hundreds of dozens of clients. They've seen what works when your life doesn't look like theirs. The breadth of training and and experience is is important because you're not always you're not going to have the same experience as someone else, but they should still be able to help you. So, that's another thing when I talk about like the credentiing system and things of that. Coaching is unregulated in the US. No state requires a license to practice coaching. There's no government body that certifies it or licenses coaches for the way that there is therapists or doctors or other regulating platforms. However, that doesn't that doesn't mean that like a licensed therapist [laughter] is going to automatically be better. They wild out here, too. Like there there literally was a licensed therapist who just won a Supreme Court case for their ability to continue to do conversion therapy. and conversion.
>> I saw that I I the Supreme Court upheld that and I was really shocked >> because I mean it's the it's it's the story of the last five years is is or you know is that every victory we think we've had you know there's retrenchment and and the idea that conversion therapy is in and of itself not seen as >> um inherently yeah >> is bizarre to me and the Supreme Court's argument was really strange to me about that. They reduced it almost to a free speech argument, right?
>> They did. They reduced it to a free speech argument. Um, one uh one of the things that was trying to advocate for is like the the the aspect is this is something that is understood. There's a wealth of research and about the fact that it is harmful physically, mentally, emotionally harmful regul like there was not one regulatory body when it comes to licensed mental health professionals that did not speak out against this. I saw the American Psychological Association speak out it, American Psychiatric Association speak out about it. Um, association of licensed clinical social workers, every single one talked about conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is this um this type of and it's not therapy, it's torture. Conversion torture is the aspect of trying of trying to convert um individuals who belong to the LGBTQIA community to be into a heterosexual mindset. So that is the goal. Um whether it is physical pain or emotional pain or mental pain like it it's based on a shame model. That's what it is, right? Um there's no regulatory board when it comes to licensed mental health professionals who advocated for it, but the Supreme Court stated that is under free speech. That European-American woman won that case.
that is a licensed mental health professional, right? So when it comes down to it, everybody should be interviewed. It's it's not solely about the aspect of having licenses. And I want everyone that's what you need to know.
>> So as a free speech, so so by that logic, >> you could you you could actively create a a therapeutic intervention to teach black people that being black is bad and they should work.
>> It's coming. I I when you know because you know when it comes to they they the goal is to set precedent.
>> Yeah.
>> Like the impact of this case is going to be absurd. um like I I it's it's the goal is always to set precedent and it was a Supreme Court case. So I I can't imagine what it's gonna it's going to look like, what's going to come from it in the next couple of years because it's not just about this case, it's about now that this case can be used as president when it comes down to it. Um so yeah, I always tell people, you know, I know we think about therapy and maybe you think about the hierarchy and you don't know about asking questions, but my my when people are doing I tell people to do a consultation session. is when you're asking questions of the clinician like you're giving them money, you're giving them time, asking them what what kind of treatments they're going to use. I have these symptoms. I struggle with this.
How many times have you worked with these individuals? It's not just about pricing, but it's also like I want to see how you think because it's not just about our training. It's also about the therapeutic alliance that you build with the clients. It's about, you know, like somebody could have all the training in the world and I'm just like your vibe is stank and I feel judged every >> and it could be that simple, right? it can be that simple. And it's like it's your money, it's your time and your energy. It is that simple. That's just what it is, right? So like I tell people to do consultation sessions. It's like a 20 to 30 minute session. You're asking questions of the clinician. One question that I tell every single clinician to ask, every single black person to ask is what do you believe the impact of racism is on mental health? There is not a clinician work that there no one who can't answer that question well can help you with therapy because it's going to come up. It's not possible. So yes, ask about fees. Also, what do you think the connection between racism and mental health is?
>> That's a great question to ask [laughter] >> because if they can't answer it, it's like and it's not always about the way people answer stuff. It's also about the way that they like try to tap dance around it. If you don't know the answer, fine. I'm not gonna work with you. But don't play in my face. Like >> I I I like that. Let me ask you a question. I know we got to roll soon, but I I want to ask you uh about relationship therapy in particular, >> like couples or family?
>> Um couples. Okay. But you see even that question is why you're good at this. Um cuz online I live online. When people hear relationship they're not thinking about our various relationships. They hear therapy relationship they thinking how can I get my man keep my man get my girl keep my girl >> you know etc. Relationship therapy, at least from social media perspective, seems to be the thing that people seems to be the most lucrative, but it also seems to be the place where I hear the most bad advice.
>> Well, yeah. And it's not meant to be advice anyway. Um, I'll be honest with you. It seems like coaching is actually way more lucrative in the first place.
But like when it comes [laughter] down to it because like what people are charging like you be killing >> uh they do [laughter] you like you think I'm saying it this because it's easy. Listen like if I can charge [laughter] I very much charge like next to nothing.
Like therapy is very much like a love offering for me. My fee is 75. It will always be 75. Um and the only reason why >> always don't say always. Please don't say always.
>> It will always be 75 because the only reason why I'm able to do that is because I I train clinicians and I charge for that. I train I do speaking and I charge for that. I'm able to do that because of the money that comes from that. And the population that I work with would never be able to afford that. But what I want people to understand is other clinicians have some sense and they're not doing everything I'm doing. They have some they have they know how to rein it in. [laughter] >> They're if you're doing it full-time, there's no way you could charge that.
But I'm not doing it full-time. I'm a professor full-time. I do research full time. I do speaking and I travel, but no clinician. My My psychologist charges me 150. She probably about to go up and I'mma pay it every time.
>> And I pay a couple hundred a session and I >> Yeah. Like she doesn't accept my insurance. I have insurance, but she doesn't accept it. I She's worked with me for so long that that's what she charges. Um she's worth every single penny. Like I get it, but >> that's just what it is. But when it comes down to it, >> relationship there, I when people talk about the most lucrative, you also have to think about like the the level of work that you're doing in the first place. like um I think the last time I I looked at a quote for a relationship therapist when I was referring out I think they charge 300. Um and that's pretty typical. I I mean like you're not working with one person, you're working with two people. It's also m it's just incredibly tough. Um as someone who works more in like the family and individual realm and the group realm. Um I used to like some of my family sessions were co-parenting sessions. Um, and co-parenting sessions are super tough and I never I would do my schedule around I would never do a um I can never do a therapy or anything after a co-arenting session because it is very tough. You decided you never want to see this person again and now you got to see them for the rest of your life. This is tough, you know, like this is very much it's a difficult thing. Um, but it's I I can see why it's you're charging more. It's a different specialty. It also is a different specialty like family and relationship is a different specialty. Um, and you're dealing with two people. A lot of times people come in with misconceptions like thinking you gonna be the referee. No, like the the the couple is the is the client. It's not an individual person.
And it's also thinking about like starting off with most people will start off with this with like what's the goal of this? Because the one thing that my I learned in training which kind of like pushed me off of couples therapy for a little bit was um my my couples therapy professor was like the thing about couples therapy is he was like people come into couples therapy and it is very much the aspect of they done cheated like 57 times and they done punched somebody in the throat and they done burned everything and then they said well let's do couples therapy and if couples go last ditch >> do it and he's just like he's like I do it all the time and I'm just like now I think more people do it preemptively now mind you I train like a while back, but he was he was just like that is the hardest thing about couples therapy because they just it's just like well I mean the the the the place to intercept was you know before the the tire slashing I don't you know like it's just [laughter] very tough. So I I never forgot that. I was just like what and like when I've done it I'm just like you know I love like the family work and the and group work and stuff like that. So I'm more so in that realm but I don't know many people who do both. Like I know people who do deal with couples that'll do families. They're both like pretty challenging dynamics, but when I've worked with couples, I'm just like, "Oh, okay." Like it's it's interesting. I just really adore like the family work.
Um and it goes well it goes well with my research because I focus on black youth and identity development.
>> Do you ever you ever take sides though when you do a relationship >> in session? Yeah.
>> Oh, you'll never get me on part saying that.
>> I'm sorry. [laughter] I'm asking the wrong question. That's not what I >> sides, Dr. Hill. Because the relationship is the client, you know. So my side is the side of what helps these individuals couple or uncouple in a healthy manner.
>> That is a great answer. I'm gonna ask you later something. [laughter] I [snorts] I love it.
>> You said you love it more. Listen, more power to you. Like because the way I work here is really talking about loving. We got some therapists here who >> Yeah. When when people talk about family therapy, I will talk about family and child therapy and [laughter] my my colleagues would be like, I would rather lick a pavement.
>> Wow.
>> Than [laughter] do family therapy.
And I'm like, it's amazing. I also like as someone who used to be like a little attitude typical I feel like typical Philly girl like typical like attitude having stay on my face kind of. I love working with angry teens. Like that very much is like my jam. Um and then it's just it's kind of like what I'm used to.
So, you get to do that with family work.
Um, yeah, it's it's amazing, but couple it's a lot.
>> Yeah. No, and and and I I appreciate I appreciate you and in in and that work that you do. We got we got some question from the audience before we go. Let me let me see their questions comments, you know, black folk. Let me see. Uh >> I used to hate that in conferences and they'd be like, not a question, but a comment. Get out of here.
>> Yeah. I'll be like [laughter] the worst.
And I would be like, and it would show my face and I'm like, well, do we have questions? Right.
>> You know, >> this it's more like a comment, >> but no, I like that for the black folks.
Yes.
>> Karen D said, "Doctor, with the rash of black men killing their intimate partners in the news, >> let's be honest. It's usually black women that are being killed." Yes.
>> Um, what do you think about the impact of mental health on men when it comes to committing femicide?
>> I think it's not solely a mental health issue, and I think that's a really important thing to think about in the first place. Like when we're thinking about this dynamic, yes, the mental health thing is an issue, but I think about this the same way I think about suicide prevention like um uh uh uh not living in a food apart and having housing and um also having access to health care and um having access to a liveable wage is also suicide prevention. So when we think about the aspect of femicide in the black community when it comes to black men, we also have to talk about the aspect of power and diamondness and the way people are socialized. And I want people to think about this more not in terms solely in the terms of like this is a behavior that individuals are like this is innate in them. This is a learned behavior and learn behaviors new behaviors can be learned as well. But it's not just a mental health thing.
It's also about the way that black youth are socialized to like think that like aggression and anger is one of the only safe emotions that can be manifested for youth. What does power look like and dominance? What are the messages that are provided in that? Um and even just the the way that like emotions are able to be accepted and not accepted and community within the black experience, right? Like one of the reasons why um Black Men Hill is like an amazing organization in Philly in the tri-state area that helps with mental health and wellbeing. But one of the biggest things is I talk about the aspect of community.
How many community building and accountability circles and things like that solely for black men are out there like in the first place. So I think we have to think about the ways that they're socialized and it starts with black boys, right? because individuals do not come out the womb as black men, right? So, I think it's also like a conversation about socialization um and dynamics about how we think about how that socialization needs to change, right? Because there's one thing about awareness. Awareness is very helpful like when it comes to we're in mental health awareness month and they're talking about like diagnosis and symptoms and stuff like that, but awareness does not move or change systems. Action and impact does, right?
So, knowing the information is the first start, but what are we also going to to do about it? like are we going to put in more money when it comes to financing more individuals, black males to be licensed mental health professionals?
Because it's also incredibly difficult for black men to be getting stuff from different sides, all sides, and it comes to like he, she, and they, and they can't go to a space when it comes to black men um to talk about that. So, are we infusing more money into scholarship programs for that, right? Um are we also having um more conversations and dynamics where we're able to all be in the same room and have that conversation? Because I think it's also important to realize that like the black black community is not just men against women or women against men. I'm a womanist. So I'm I'm for the black community. He she and they. But we've all been harmed in this realm, right? So I think it's important to also think about that. But it's not solely a mental health issue. I would say mental health is step three. Um top conversations about like psychology and dominance because a lot of men are not receiving conversations about masculinity as it's like this. It's one individual base.
They receive it as masculinity is just the antithesis of femininity. It's just the opposite of it. And even in that like you know I mean you know you you know if a woman is weak you just gota be strong or a woman is over here talking all day you just don't talk like it's a lot of the messages actually aren't solely about masculinity it's just about that is just the opposite of femininity and that's a huge thing >> we got another question coming in here we got [clears throat] another question coming in uh this is from KO founder who says will she address using pretty privilege as a way to mask and defend the covert complexion struck criticisms against Cheyenne Bryant. Dr. Bryant be able to say, "Y'all are criticizing me because I'm more attractive than y'all without being destroyed online." So, >> oh, is that why she's being criticized?
I did not know that was why she was being criticized. I mean, my video was overtly criticizing false statements that are just inappropriate and inaccurate to state. Um, I didn't bring up this individual's looks or um complaint. I think I think he I think he's saying >> that that's implicit in in the critique is that people are are actually mad because she's so she's so attractive and that they're basically hating that there's a pettiness to this and that there's a hate and that they're bringing her down because she's so fine. That's what I think he's saying. And I've heard other people say that mostly men uh who are supportive of her work uh just as I've heard men and women who are who are not saying something different but that is a conversation happening. So, it's not the aspect of the fact that this is just inaccurate. Like, it's not the fact that we're saying, you know, someone said that water isn't wet. It's the fact that a pretty person said that water is dry. So, it's not the fact that someone is saying in a sense water is dry. It's the fact that they're pretty saying it.
So, like we're just going to say that individuals are just so basic and understanding and they're just their lack of in their intellect is so lacking that it's not the fact that it's wrong, it's just the fact that she's pretty. We all just hate this pretty individual. Is that I just want to make sure I'm understanding, Dr. Hill. That's >> that is that that is the claim being made by this person. Yeah.
>> Yes. I I you know, like I'm not going to act like colorism doesn't exist. Um I'm also not going to act like the aspect of having once again like the social proof of someone having a ridiculous amount of followers and then also being on huge platforms sitting next to you as well.
Uh being able to like the the the aspect of seeing that, right? like it's very much like you know this person must know what they're talking about but I honestly think more of the comm like there is the there is this whole psych thing of like the halo effect where it's basically the the thought process that if individuals uh look a certain way or they have a certain level of confidence or something like that they're more likely to be believed and that's just understood. Um, but I would like to think more in the community of just the whole aspect of like you're just wrong.
And I know people came up with their own individual things, but nothing in my video stated that. Like I literally just went across the language and been like, "That's not true. That's not true.
That's also not true. That's not true."
Didn't talk about this person's look, didn't talk about this person's clothes, didn't talk about the this person's complexion or anything like that because none of that is relevant. And honestly, that's like weak sauce, right? Like that's like when somebody come up to you and they be like, "Oh, can I get your number?" And you be like, "No." And they be like, "You ugly anyway." I was ugly five minutes ago when you tried to get my number. Like I don't there's no need to talk about looks when you're just you're just factually inac. I just feel like that's weak as academic. Like oh and you ugly too. I mean you ugly too.
Like all of these things are wrong. This is what like I have literal book knowledge and I'm going to talk about your looks. Like that's just not a me thing. It's just also unnecessary.
>> I I think it it reinforces idea that that everyone's jealous of her which itself to me um because I think there are legitimate critiques to be made. I think some pe some people are piling on. And I think some of the critiques against Dr. Bryant are unreasonable and unfair.
>> Um, and then I think there are legitimate critiques that are being made. And I think if you're a public figure, as long as you operate with civility and honesty and transparency and intellectual honesty, I think it's fine to offer a principal critique.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and that's that's what I saw in your video. I don't know enough to agree or disagree. What you said made sense to me. But >> well, it's also fact. I mean you and even like not to know not to disagree, you would just look it up like >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
>> You know, like >> that's all I can do. [laughter] >> And so while I'm looking stuff up, >> Yeah.
>> I'm not thinking, you know, is she what's the motivation behind this?
>> Yeah.
>> Is this secretly like I'm not going to psychologize the I'm just going to see if it's true or not.
>> Yeah. And that's the that's the biggest thing like when it comes down to it is this isn't my first critique. Like when it comes down to it, like I criti in addition to making my own original content about facts, I critique stuff all the time because the goal is to provide cycle education and we're deserving of that. So just being like, hey, this is inaccurate. This makes more sense. This is I just want you to understand that when it comes down to there was this thing years ago, I think it was like two years ago where Sizza was seeing a the like a coach.
>> Yeah.
>> And she had mentioned she she always talks about having significant anxiety issues and she actually commented on the post too that I talked about this. She was like, "Yeah, it was a it was a crazy time." and she was talking about the fact that like she was at her wit's ends and she was like, "I need more tools. I need more stuff. This isn't working."
And the coach was like, "Oh, I'm a coach. I'm not a therapist. Like, I can't provide anything else." And it was lit like she clearly was getting taken advantage of. And she openly states that like I didn't even know the difference.
Right? So, even just being able to to share that in the first place. And I also understand the aspect of as a black woman that the the tendency to police black women like what they're wearing and stuff like that. I totally understand that where that comes from and that thought process and trying not to subscribe to that. I had a video where it was just another video where like they had just said something. It was about discipline. I think it was just like um the the uh Cheyenne was talking specifically about discipline and saying that gentle parenting wasn't working um as someone who doesn't work with children, does not have children, um does not train in children. So to state that was I was just like that's just inaccurate. And I think I had said something about her clothes and then after the very next video I was like and that was wrong. I said that was like weeks. I said there are so many facts in that video. There is no need for me to do that. I am not going to be the person that contributes to policing black women and what they wear. It's the same way I talk about like when you're right, you're right. When you're wrong, you're wrong. And there was no followup. There was no, "Oh, but I was it was just like I was wrong, y'all." And it's that it's that easy to apologize for being wrong.
>> And I think and I think that's fair. I I think that's fair because we all had those moments. And social >> and you just got to keep it moving. Just be like, "Hey, I was a jerk." You know, that [laughter] was unnecess. There's so many things you're wrong about. I don't have to talk about your clothes. I can just talk about all the things you're saying that are wrong. There's so many things. Um, and I encourage people to do that because I teach my students that.
Challenge that argument, not the person.
>> How does somebody with a doctorate in psychology and at some point licensing >> say so many things in your estimation that you deem wrong?
>> Are we stating that um Cheyenne Bryant has a doctorate and was licensed?
>> As far as I know.
>> Oh, I was not aware of that.
>> What do you mean? Well, I wasn't aware that she completed her her doctorate and I also wasn't aware that she ever had an independent license. So like you so when you so like say for me bachelor's masters second masters and doctor after that I did an internship in posttock that's two years after the the all those four degrees two years after that and then I sat for my lensure exam and passed my lensure exam. Now during my second masters in doctor I was still conducting therapy but I was under my supervisor's license. So everything I was doing, they were recording my sessions. Of course, they know that my sessions are being recorded. They're reviewing what I'm doing. They're refining it. They're going over my case conceptual, my notes, but I was never independently licensed at that point.
Even though I had been doing therapy, I was licensed under their license, right?
Um I didn't sit for the exam until years later. Pass the exam. You have to pass the jurist prudence exam on the laws.
You have to pass an exam about knowing the information. And then every two years, I have to um I do continuing education credits to keep it. So, I was not aware that this person was ever independently licensed. Um, because >> I could be wrong about the license.
>> That's also a very big thing to like you can be working under someone licensed, but you never actually became independently licensed. That means like I went to school, but then I never did that. Um, the doctor thing I I didn't I'm going to assume that she that this individual has a doctor. Like I know there was talk about like looking up.
>> I guess that's what I'm saying. I might be wrong about the license. I I may have misinterpreted her comment about the light. I thought she was saying why she why she no longer held a license, but I might be thinking of Dr. Phil, it may be that she chose to go a different route for the reason she's staying. So, that might be on me. But the do some people were saying she didn't have a doctorate.
To my knowledge, she does.
>> Um, her her her I mean, she has >> told me that she has one and >> Okay.
>> She identifies as she identifies as doctor, >> right?
>> So, so it's not a leap to you know what I mean? and and she's she's listed where she got it from and the institution I know the institution is no longer open but to my my understanding is that when it is that the psychology department this ID there is still accepted as a valid >> it is so when credentiing so like when programs shut down before the program shuts down that degree is still valid um if the person graduated from I know that I think a lot of people had a question about that too like oh the program shut down but it was but but they finished it while it was So like if the person finished it while it was up, that's still a that's still a program. Like they still they could still like apply for stuff like that.
when you mentioned like how can you have so many different views on it the same way I mentioned the way that I was trained uh when it comes down to it in terms of like I don't know like European-American westernized thought process when you're done with school that's that's like I don't want to say that's nothing but like you um you have the guidance of someone else you have the notes I don't know the intricacies of the way that someone has finished but like the continuing education I have I have never stopped learning I have never stopped doing research. I have never stopped doing anything. It would just be like, okay, they went to med school, they never did residency, but they went to med school.
>> Yeah, I have friends like that.
>> Yeah.
>> They never did residency or they didn't pass the boards, they didn't do >> Yeah. and they're and then they're still practicing in a realm that they haven't been working in. Like they haven't been seeing the transition in terms or haven't been working with clients and the breadth of the in in terms of like ethics and like in terms of the way that you can actually work it in terms of like we're going according to frameworks, not just how my gut feels.
I I like someone who when you and plus when you finish your doctor honestly you're a baby, you know, like you [laughter] like I mean like that I it's no shade about like >> that's an interesting point. I'm not a psychologist. I mean, I got my PhD 20 years ago and if that was the last time I read in my field, I would be a mess. Yeah, >> we're like I mean, and people see it as different because we in school forever, BUT I WAS A baby [laughter] like just finishing my doctorate. the amount of work you get and the experience you get from like learning more in the field and the amount of experience you get from working with more clients because there's also the aspect of working with more clients without having the guard rails on because you're actually like doing it in the first place and someone like so people need to understand like it it as soon as you graduated were you like okay so let me just see my patients or let me just write this dissertation and oh yeah I'm sure I just I just got my I just got my doctor I can DO CNN NO MAN just hey now Oh, now now wait, >> right, >> I need to like work in this field and I need to teach others for a little bit and learn and stuff like that. And >> it's also that the majority of the stuff that is stated by Dr. Brian is is objectively against what is stated in our field like just >> that's what I was trying to get. So that's why I asked the question my question my reason for asking it was less about her credentials. I mean it was about her credentials but it was more like how do you how do you how do you land there? Right?
if >> she doesn't work in our field. She's not a psychologist. She um I don't there's no governing board for psychology expert. I could decide after my bachelors I'm a psychology expert because I did so good at it. But like she doesn't work in our field. She's not a psychologist. She's not a mental health expertise. She's a coach. So it would be very easy. I mean just like if there's a business coach who says something specifically about like I don't know um what attachment looks like. You don't work in our field. So like of course you don't really know what it is. even something as simple as she literally stated on a video that like you should be hitting your on the with toé on their platform and there's also the aspect of the level of platforms and I think there has to be some accountability for us as a people and the individuals who are booking these individuals because you have to understand how much individuals listen to those platforms so the fact that she was able to be on a show with Toré who is a like one of the phenoms when it comes to journalism and has been and the fact that she was able to and I know the Joe Bun podcast is still entertainment but it is still like you're on there and you provide a lot of credibility to that show. Um, which is, you know, one of the many reasons why it's very incredibly helpful. But like it just talking about having individuals on those stages, you have to understand, she literally stated on the tour show like you should be hitting your children. That goes against every single research aspect when it comes to licensed mental health professionals in the but it doesn't really matter because there's no one who can say anything to about her about her because she's not in our field. So I don't consider Dr. Bryant to be in the psychology field. I consider her to be in the coaching field. Um, >> she's have a degree in psychology. Does it? She has a degree in psychology, but I have four degrees in psychology. And if I wasn't staying up on my stuff, I would still be wrong as well. Like the person who did conversion therapy, she got a degree and a license in psychology. So, it's not even just about the license, is about the expertise and are you working in this realm, I work in this realm from research, from teaching undergrads, from teaching clinicians, from um actually doing practice to actually seeing it. And I it's not just about like the book learning as we know cuz we've both been in academia and the books just be like just they just be wow like it just be saying stupid stuff and that that's understandable like you it's just it's up to you to go above and beyond and take those additional things but like even this fact that a lot of her stuff are dichomized thinking like high value and low value when it comes to people and this is a really good way of I try to tell >> and that's a Kevin Samuels term right?
Oh, I don't know. I'd have to ask my >> I think that's the that's my first version.
>> My husband is such a huge troll and he would play that man. He used to have this audio that used to say I'm a PhD and he would literally My husband's a troll. Love him, but like he would do this all the time and I'll be like all right man like you know. Um but like the dichomous thinking like the fact that this either this or that that's not how humans work like we reside in the gray, right? There is no black or white thinking when it comes to it. It's actually like a a thinking trap. It's a cognitive distortion. pretty common one like a way to negatively bias your thinking either they love me or they hate me like oh well either they do this or they don't do that that's that's and that's like psych 101 right so I can understand there being a difference in thought because I don't consider us to be in the same field like I don't consider it to be like the psychology expert I don't see any realm where this individual works in the psychology realm and I think there's a lot of things about like you also have to look at the places where these people are talking I've never come into contact with Dr. front, but we're also on different stages. Like I do collaborations with NAACP and Urban League and I present for American Psychological Association, Association of Black Psychologists and creating formats and like I'm not doing like Club Shay or doing Nick like you also have to look about like the stages that are that are lionizing these individuals and like where they're coming from or credibility because I know it's a lot you see followers. I have a good chunk of followers but like objectively Dr. Brian is more popular than me, right? Like she like that's these are just numbers. cuz that let's just take it away from her for a second.
Does does that >> cuz I cuz I don't want people to think that this is about her. I'm thinking about >> when you do psychology in those spaces.
>> Even if you if you got invited tomorrow to do well ain't around tomorrow, I'm old, but like imagine whatever the new equivalent of Oprah is or you were put on the Joe Rogan podcast. That's a good example, right?
>> And I know you probably wouldn't go, but yeah. If you but if you if you on Joe Rogan and you know the 10 million 15 million people about to watch you, does that shape how you give? Like I know when I'm on Joe Button, um I try to have the same consistency in terms of the messaging and the same principle, but I I have to concede. I not concede. I have to I can't chase every every point. I have to I I have to I have to have a central argument that I want the audience to walk away with. Yeah.
>> And so there's some smaller points that I might not even fight, not because I I agree with them, but because I I can't fight everything at once. And I want to hit home with this message. So, I I'm making some concessions. I'm making some pragmatic decisions about how to get a message across to a general audience as a psychologist. Um, you know, I could imagine you get entering a debate about spanking your child and and or or that gentle parenting doesn't work. And and your takeaway is don't hit your child. Gentle parenting does work.
But you might have to let some you might have to let some strays just keep going.
like is it possible to be on a mainstream platform doing psychology and do the and do the job to the utmost?
>> I think so, but like I would pro I don't know if I would be asked back because I'm not letting anything go, right? Like like so it's also [laughter] okay. So it's also like I totally get that. Um but one of the main reasons why I enjoy having a plat like I'm a doctor who creates content. I don't like when it comes to content creators a lot of times you have to make certain concessions with like branding and stuff like that.
I don't have to do that. I'm a like my finance is me. Like like you can't cancel me for saying f Trump like who's gonna cancel me. No one is funding this but me. This is my frontfacing iPhone camera and anybody who wants to be in this community, right? Like I can't do it. Like you have I I I I totally I totally understand like the aspect of thinking of ma like making concessions, but this is why so many of our journalists are on independent media now because like the at the end of the day like people will just fire you anyway even after those concessions. Even the aspect of like let's say you get asked to be on the Joe Rogan podcast. You have to have the moral and the ethics to just be I'm not doing it. I totally understand that this will reach so many people, but I have to believe that the core audience that I bought can bring me somewhere else. And that can be tough.
Like it can also be tough in this social world where there are places that will see you and they, you know, maybe one of the 50 of the awful people there, but one of the person got your message and then you converted someone. But you have to think about like what that does for you. It's it would be it just it would not be possible for me to just let that go.
Like I do it professionally. I mean anything I do is professional. I'm a professional. But I would just be like, well, you would have to define gentle parenting before we can continue this conversation.
I can't have this conversation with you if we're not on the same terms. And then if they define it wrong, I'm like, that's actually inaccurate. That's passive parenting. Gentle parenting is also parenting with respect. And they're talking about hidden kids. Well, where did you get that experience from with hidden kids? Did you get it from your research experience, your individual experience, from your children? Did you get it from when you're treating other people? Did you get it from what you were trained in? Oh, it's my opinion.
Okay. Well, I'm talking about facts, so I can't really compete opinion with facts and I I'm not going to do it. So, unless we want to move to a different topic, I cannot discuss it. And there's only so many times people going to let you on the show doing, you know what I'm saying? So, like I don't know. I I can't I can't let stuff go. There's so few black licensed mental health professionals and psychologists, 5% of licensed psychologists in the US, and I'm black. So, if I'm on a stage, they're having me there as a black psychologist. It is my job to the community to be like, "That is wrong, that is inaccurate, that is oppressive, that is racist. You never invited me back here anyway, so I'm gonna say everything I have to say. Please get me on camera, too. I hope I can the content." Um, it's just it's just like, and it might be you in Philly, too. It's a very Philly thing, but this is not how I was brought up. Like, I was brought up of every like the community work and the way that you're contributing to the community. I decided to be a psychologist because I went to Fisk University, and I probably would never be a psychologist if I didn't go to a H.B.CU. But it is never and has never been just about me, you know, like we're a collectivist um culture. Like it can't just be about me. I have to think about the way that other people will perceive this and not people who have just a degree, but people who can also break down concepts and may not have a a degree. Like not using a $25 word where a $5 word will do. We more of us have to think this way, right? Because a lot of people be like, "Oh, what about the hustle? You don't think it's hustle getting all these degrees and being in an overtly racist and elitist academia, right? Like we're deserving of credentialed people, too. I can't do it." And I don't know if I'm ever be on because I would just be like, "Oh, well, I just want to go back to this actually." You know, like I don't >> myself off of stages now, but like what I've seen with the community that I built like they respected like, "Yeah, no, she going look I can't do the three minute videos. I'm not the best at brevity, but like I I think that that's what we deserve as someone who, you know, we're I'm a black psychologist.
Like how many of us are black? We deserve to be like, you deserve this.
This person is lying. This is oppression. Don't let them diagnose you.
That's it. [laughter] word. We got we got another question coming in here before we uh solace 225 said >> uh discuss something more substantive like how are people could be go about picking a therapist and different types of therapy? I I submit to you Solus 225 that everything we've been talking about is substantive and relevant. But I do want to ask that question.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. How should people go about picking a therapist?
>> Yes. And Solus might have actually come in a little later because we did talk about that when we talked about consultations and finding a therapist. I do think it is substantive to talk about the oppressive systems that stop individuals from going to academia and coaching versus therapy. For example, if you're going to choose a therapist, you should also know the answer to the question about like what's the difference between a coach and a therapist like we mentioned earlier.
Like coaches are not um uh uh there's a voluntary credentiing voluntary credentiing board, but you don't have to be licensed. It's unregulated. Um we also talked about therapists. Um so therapist is more so a category. So you may also want to look at what kind of therapist you want, right? Um I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. So that is a type of therapist. You have licensed marriage and family therapists.
You have licensed clinical social workers. And you have licensed professional counselors. You also have um psychiatrists who can prescribe medication and do therapy and psychiatric nurse practitioners who can prescribe medication and do therapy. So that is one thing to be aware of. Um a lot of times I also tell people to look for a a consultation session and it's a 20 to 30 minute like phone call or Google meet where you're able to ask questions of the clinician. I have a finding a therapist guide on my website is free. There's a bunch of free mental health resources on my website. But on the finding the therapist guide, there are like two pages of directories where you can find a therapist. You can look up city and state and lensure and find a list of therapists. Um but there are also questions that you can ask such as like what is your do you have a sliding scale? What is your process when it comes to crisis? Do you answer text messages? It's also the question that I mentioned that I think every single black person or anyone of the global majority should ask is like what do you believe the impact of racism on is on mental health. I have kind of symptoms.
What would be like how would you treat them? Have you worked with this before?
Um and there's also like a little bit of a vibe check to be like how you felt during the consultation session. Did you feel judged? Did you feel welcomed? A lot of times I tell people to think about how quickly it went by. Typically, if it feels like drying paint when you're having um a um consultation session, you may not vibe with them in session, but if it's going by fast, that can also be somebody that you work with um effectively. I also on my Instagram, I share 19 licensed mental health professionals every single Friday who have filled out a form. I verify their license, but their license is the only thing I have verified. So, these aren't people I know professionally. Um but they um list answers to those questions, and they currently have openings as well. And your your uh your Instagram is just Raquel Martin.
>> Yeah, Raquel Martin PhD. And then my website is that and that's the that's my stuff everywhere. Instagram, Tik Tok, threads. Threads. I just be talking trash though. So don't expect a professional there like at all.
>> That's that's where we get all the real answers. But go to Raquel Martin uh PhD so you can get uh as much insight as you can about finding a therapist. Also her unique and specific insights. Um there's another and I know you got to go to bed.
So, I'm going I'm I'm I'mma be quick, but I just There were a couple people who just been so excited to talk to you.
>> Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
>> So many people come in. Someone asked if you've ever studied Dr. Amos Wilson or Dr. Francis Chris Wilson.
>> Absolutely. I mean, like I'm black, but [laughter] these are like some of the great when it comes to giants. Yeah.
>> Like also um Joan Kjufu and Dr. Kenneth Maybe Fips Clark who did the the the the study. There's also of course Dr. Robert Cross and Robert Sers and um Cross. Uh there's also Janet Helms is a living legend as well. Um there's also Joy Degree. Like yes, but I will say being at Fisk for my undergrad was the reason why I was able to study those individuals. I always state that if I did not go to H.B.CU for my bachelors, I probably would not have become a psychologist because instead of focusing on Freud and Young and stuff like that, we learned about Robert Williams and Joan Kjufu and and Robert and like things of that nature. So, I do think where you go like it's it's rare. Like Freud is I there's only so many times you can learn about that creep. But like all the other people like Freud is a creep. Like there's only so many times you can learn about that person. Um it doesn't mean that creeps can't contribute to the field. They do every day, you know, but like if I didn't go to a H.B.CU. I literally um Dr. Sheila Peters was my professor and psych and black history were the only courses that did not bore me. And Fisk is expensive.
It's private. So, I was just like, I'm paying too much money, >> like two jobs, work study to to be this board. So, absolutely. Um, yeah, they're some of the great when it comes to African centered um psych in the first place.
>> My my [clears throat] father-in-law uh Gerald Jackson was a black psychologist and he uh before he passed away, you know, I I got actually read him in grad school. I took a course psychology psychology of the African-American with Howard Stevenson when I was at Penn.
>> Yep. And we got I I was made aware of all these people who I otherwise would not have that that's >> there would have been no way to know about them. It's absurd and they are phenoms. Like it's just it's insane.
Like yeah, that's why I tell people like when it comes to the education piece, you also have to titrate like you have to figure out what you're going and it's easier now in the information age. But liberation psychology is very much what I embed all my stuff in. I did not learn about liberation psychology till the end of my doctoral program. It was never brought up in any of my classes. It's >> I I I didn't know it existed, you know.
I'm I'm in grad school a couple decades ago, but I'm going through undergrad going, you know, and because uh I was uh an education major undergrad, you know, we had to take a bunch of psychology courses.
>> Yeah.
>> And and child development and all this stuff, but we never came across, you know, way. We never came across, you know, it it was like these people, Bill Cross, it it was like these people didn't exist. Um and it gave me such insight into sort of how to understand black children and black learning.
>> Yeah.
>> You know cross the the the theress study the Robert Sers like it really just talks about the fact that black identity development is in a sense like a bridge to stronger um identity and self-worth and self-love and it's a it's a shield against the impact of perceived racism and risky behaviors and academic outcomes.
more when it comes to rearing black youth. You know, it's not just about like developmental norms of like when are they walking, when are they talking, when are they doing this. It's about when do they see themselves as whole, when do they understand who they are and who they are not, who they are. That is going to be more important than oh, okay, well, they hit their height. What it's why I tell people like that's why I see it's someone who has a million degrees, don't stop at the degrees like where are they getting their experience from? What are they what are they speaking about? What are their frameworks? I think it's amazing to follow people, but have you been able to see these people live? Like, have you been able to see them speak about a different topic? Have you been able to, you know, it's just it's >> Well, that's that's where the Amos Wilson piece becomes interesting as I sit here because I'm like, I got Amos I got Amos Wilson all around here.
>> Um, and because those books, even in the black kind of intellectual cannon in the academy, >> Yeah.
>> oftentimes Francis Crest Wilson isn't in there. off Amos Wilson isn't in there like falsification of African consciousness or you know there are these books that that are that are left out of the the academic cannon even by black scholars sometimes so you not only like to your point not only have to go looking for the knowledge >> in black and like journal of black psychologist or or black you know whatever but you also got to go to the local black bookstore or or these other spaces to to find to to read >> um these these these texts and these traditions hard Was that for you as a as a as a as a scholar to know where to even find an Amos Wilson?
>> Um, I think the best thing about being here at H.B.C.U is like half the time I mean everybody goes to their awakening at H.B.CU. Like everybody except for me, everybody came in with like straight hair and then by like fall it's just like it's it's like you [laughter] say everybody get locks. They got it over fall break. And so I feel like that conversational aspect is incredibly helpful. A lot of my books, like I had to I could not find Dr. I couldn't find Janza Kju's Conspiracy um to destroy black boys. I had to order from Thrift Books. Um >> uh which like if you order things from like the thrift books and stuff like that, make sure you put your books in a ziplockc bag and put it in the freezer >> for like at least a week because there are book mites and you don't want to infest your home like that. But like a lot of the times, one of the things that I would do is the books that I would read, they would also reference other books. And once again, professional nerd, y'all. So, I'm just going to put that out there. I literally read for a living. It's like the best job in life.
Um, I would uh look for it on um Google Scholar sometimes. Sometimes, uh you can you can like get like it'll have like a PDF next to and you can click the PDF and it'll be there. Um libraries are really really helpful like the Philly.
Um I grew up in the Philly Library so like it's it's very much home, but like it's huge. So, it has access to um what's the thing? The file. It's like you you turning through a really old newspaper >> the the micro that thing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about.
>> Never underestimate that. Um as someone who like people talk about like doing degrees before chat GBT, it's going to be a different thing. As someone who had who's so used to like having to go through the um Dewey decimal system and having to research, I'm used to stuff being tough in the first place. Um, so I would say like thrift books, um, word of mouth. Um, we're at an amazing time right now where like even older stuff is actually not coming back, but they're actually transferring stuff to like you can find old talks in YouTube and old PBS special. There's this PBS special on YouTube now. It's called The Terrible Transformation, and it talks about like enslavement from indentured servitude, but that is like mad old. Um, and it's being transferred over. Um, I also would like to I I like to mention the fact that like you know like the same way we have record players and we're doing like Kid Cuddy and stuff like that. They used to have a lot of speeches like black speeches and stuff like that on records. So that's actually one of my favorite things to do is look for like old speeches. I have like Nikki Giovani's like poetry on one of my um records and stuff like that. So I also encourage people to look at different formats because we have to think about the fact the internet wasn't there but the messages were still getting out there um in the first place. So I tell people to look at different dynamics but word of mouth going to these conferences is really helpful because honestly the conversations about and people will mention something and I'll be like oh I know um what that is you know what will will happen and stuff like that. He said don't say liberation psychology the man will take it away. It was a man who made it. [laughter] Now would I put that in my grant application? Absolutely not. That search term can't be there. I won't get funded.
So interesting >> like oh yeah like they just look for control F and they'll look for like black like instead of saying black history you're putting American now and >> but black history is American history so it's not like you do anything wrong >> allegedly. Um yeah, [laughter] but yeah, a lot of times, um I I think one of the one of the reasons why I'll never stop being a professor, like even I took a break this year because I'm doing research, but like the transgenerational mentorship, not only just from like me speaking to elders, but also speaking to youth is incredibly helpful. And I think that's something that actually helps the community continue going. Like um it's one of the things that like a lot of people are talking about like, oh, black people are struggling, but like there's a group of current people and ethnicities and they're like, oh, this is not the world that I know. and black people are like, "This is the fascist world I've always been born in." Um, but being able to have that transgenerational mentorship of being able to talk to older black people and elders who have that information and have also been like, "We've been here before and this is what has worked before." Um, is incredibly helpful. Um, so I also tell individuals like it's it's really really helpful to just make sure we're conversing with our elders too because they are taking books away and they are but the the experience can never be be taken away. And um when it comes to like I think we should honestly have a whole project of just doing voice memos and documentaries of like every single NAACP or Urban League or NBJ and like just be like so tell me about the first time you know like I think that would be amazing project like I think it would be fantastic and we find a way to >> you know put that in our in our our things but uh transgenerational mentorship um speaking to elders speaking to youth too. We can learn just as much from youth as um we learn from elders as well. But that helps out a lot. Like most of most for most of my like colleagues, I'm the baby. It's amazing. I ain't never got to pay for food, you know, like that. I also get way more leeway because they like she's a child. She's only 37. Like help her out. Like it's [laughter] like it's amazing. Like I don't never pay for meals, y'all. Like so it's good being with the elders. They got all the money.
>> Yeah.
>> They got all these books that they don't even want. They like I can't take it with me. Take it. And you get a first, you know, you get a first copy of like the William Cross model because they just like I mean he was cool, >> right?
>> Like you know, so [laughter] I I'm I'm a person who's always going to converse with with everyone anyway. Like it's it's very it's just very much in me. So I tell people to talk to individuals more and try to venture out to to events and stuff like that. There are so many um you know like you have Association of Black Psychologists and you have like all of these things where you can learn more about your individual field and then if you don't have it, you also grow it. So talking always I'm a yapper. I mean therapy we don't really get to talk that much. So like any other realm is fair game.
>> I think that I think that's I think that's right. Um >> I'm going I'm going I'm going it's late.
I I I had more questions, but we we'll have you come back for us for another round.
>> Um I'm just grateful that you hung out with us tonight on >> Absolutely. I told you I thought this was the couple spot at first. I was like, "Oh, you're great, too." But I wouldn't [laughter] So, so many people, as y'all know, I have a podcast with my wife. It's called In Together on Patreon. You can click that QR code. And I feel like now people will be mad, disappointed when it's just me.
>> Listen, black women black women are amazing and it's just it is what it is.
So, I can't I can't [laughter] I can't lie, you know. So, yeah, you're great. You're great, too, Dr. Hill.
>> Right. But but people really want Dr. Vayz. I [laughter] I was in Philly yesterday uh with did an event with with with um with Tiffany Cross and that's the first thing he says, "Where's your wife? Where's your wife?"
>> But we gonna get you in this thing together. [laughter] It's okay. I understand. I I'm I'm >> You do. You You love her, too. You're like, "I get it. She's amazing. I get it." Like [laughter] >> I I have no I have no push back, >> you know? I don't mind being second fiddle. I really don't.
>> Yeah. And she be like fifth. Second is second is great.
>> That's true. But there's only two of us.
So >> listen listen listen people will think like you know there's always a basement. It could be worse.
>> So like you're >> that's a fact [laughter] I like but you're amazing and my wife was singing your praises. I'm glad y'all got to connect for a second. Um we'd love to have you on the show. I'd love to have you come back here for office hours as well. I I just love everything you're doing. I love your voice. I love your integrity, your consistency, your principles. Um and your brilliance. Um >> thank you. So, just thank you for everything that you do. Uh, everybody, you can uh I was trying to I'm sitting trying to plug you. Oh, yeah. Here we go. You can go to Martin Rael martinartphd.com. You can also rockelmart martinphd on all the social media platforms. Follow her, listen to her, uh, support her.
>> It's also okay to challenge me as well.
Like, it's fine.
>> To me, that's part of >> that's part of it.
>> Yeah. Following and engaging to me is pushing back. It's saying you wrong. and saying I don't understand this whatever the thing might be um that's what community is about and that's what you seem to be building um have [clears throat] built and and doing it around mental health I think is so important because if we're ever going to get free you know we got to free our minds our spirits every part of us and and this holistic approach to healing uh that includes mental health at the center I think is is so important and and I love this idea of liberation psychology I can't wait to learn more and read more about it >> I can give you a whole I can give you a whole reading I got >> you know I'm going hit you for the reading list.
>> Yeah, >> I'm [laughter] read >> and that way when you come back I can I can ask even even even even even more questions. So just thank you for being you and thank you for hanging out with us so late on >> I know I don't know how you doing this cuz you on East Coast time like >> yo I'll be tired. I I I'll be I'll be I'll be tired. Uh and so Mega I apologize we didn't get to your question. She's one of She's a long time uh supporter. We you know and we love you. We just we go doc going to be back and when she back your question will be at the top of the list.
>> Thank you.
>> Um thank you and u we'll see you soon.
>> Have a good night.
>> You too. All right everybody, that was the uh >> Oh my gosh, I was holding that in for so long.
>> Oh, we can still hear you. But I love live live broadcast. Um I love her. She's so dope. It's so real. Um, anyway, uh, thank y'all for for for [clears throat] joining me for night school. That was, uh, an incredible conversation. I learned so much. I'm so just excited to have engaged her and to have heard her and to have learned from her. That's what office hours is all about. That's why I bring it's it's for it's for y'all, but it's also for me because I just learned so much. I didn't even know what liberation psychology was until an hour and a half ago. So, I'm grateful. Um, hit the like button and the sub subscribe button if you're so inclined. Hit the join button. Also, family, we provide this free of charge on YouTube. Uh, because we believe in community education because I believe that you all deserve all of this. And so, please, there's no charge. Just keep hitting like, keep hitting subscribe. If you want to support this platform financially, you're more than welcome to. I ask you to click on uh that QR code. I ain't going to point because I always point wrong. But that QR code over here somewhere. Uh there we go. How about like this? Yep.
This right here. There we go. I just love doing that. If you click right there on the QR code, you can join us on Patreon. You can hit the button there.
And as a supporter at the supporter level or above, you can help support this platform. If you want to support black media, independent media, grassroots media, radical media, we need your help. So, you click that link and you allow us to to really keep this this going. Uh, but you don't just get to support us. You also get more content.
Again, you can get the weekly podcast in this thing together that my wife and I do uh by clicking that link. You can also get the conversation series uh by clicking that link. You can also uh get uh my just my thoughts. You can get and another thing which are two uh recurring series where I extend my thoughts from other major platforms. You also will get uh classic material. You'll also get special insights. You'll get early content, extra content, and extended content by clicking the QR code on the left and signing up at the supporter level or above. Uh please consider it.
We really need your support. Really need your help. But regardless, we going to be here every week and we're going to be here teaching because that's what it's about. All right, family. Love y'all.
I'll see y'all later.
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