Are Prots/Evangelicals really less Exclusivist? Fr. Stephen De Young on the True Church

追加: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]Would it serve to emphasize that the church being the church doesn't invalidate people's experience of God outside the church, but rather it's the tilos of it as God working them towards it? Many are opposed emotionally because of their previous experiences and this type of >> Yeah. Well, read read the Bible, right?

[00:00:18]Read the Old Testament, right? Israel was Israel. It had visible borders, right? People were Israelites or they weren't, right? But God did stuff outside of Israel.

[00:00:31]>> And God makes very clear that he's working in the world through Israel. So when we say we're the true church, we're saying this is this is the body of Christ through which God is working in the world to bring about the salvation of the whole world. In the same way that he worked through Israel, the Old Testament, he works through Israel, which we now call the church in the New Testament.

[00:00:56]Uh, father, how do we square heaven as a positive experience of God and hell as the hatred of God's presence with no salvation outside the church? Is it just heterodox don't really love God?

[00:01:07]>> Well, no. So, extra ecclesium noisalis, there's no salvation outside the church is referring to what I just said.

[00:01:16]>> Salvation comes into the world in and through the church.

[00:01:21]That doesn't mean that being a baptized member of the Orthodox Church is an e ticket to heaven, right, automatically, right? Because not all in Israel are of Israel.

[00:01:33]>> And it also doesn't mean that that no one outside of the visible boundaries of the Orthodox Church finds salvation. But if they find salvation, they find salvation through the church.

[00:01:46]Mhm.

[00:01:47]>> So, this is from Andrew Wilson, and I I I want people to understand like what these guys actually believe about people outside their church. So, this is uh Andrew Wilson. This is Andrew Wilson, and he's got two memes there. So, the meme on the left was one that was sent to him to describe what's going on with the Orthobos, and then he fixed it. So, um I'll show you the actual memes here.

[00:02:08]This is the first one that was sent to him.

[00:02:10]>> Okay.

[00:02:11]>> So, in this one, an unbeliever is saying, "Help me. She's on fire." and a Christian runs up and says, "Don't worry, here comes the water of life."

[00:02:18]So, this is uh this is meant to describe preaching the gospel to the person, everyone.

[00:02:23]>> And then he finds out what the and it's the hose isn't working. And it's because an orthob has has turned off has turned off the hose and he says, "First, let's settle who the real firefighter is between the two of us."

[00:02:38]>> Oh, let me fast forward. Someone didn't show that just in case they thought it was something else. You flag it. My fix of that, I haven't seen this other fix, but my fix of that would be uh you have to settle what the gospel is.

[00:02:51]>> Yes.

[00:02:52]>> Is this water you're spraying or is it, you know?

[00:02:56]>> Well, that's that's exactly what >> gasoline, right?

[00:02:59]>> Yes. That's that's what Andrew Wilson shared. He said it's like it's like they're spraying them with gasoline.

[00:03:05]>> Yeah. And that's and and in in my estimation that seems true because they're sending people off to these messianic Jewish cults or to the like new IFBs who are literally saying like, "Oh, you know, the whole Stephen Anderson thing. I don't need to really repeat on the stream and get my >> think we have the gospel."

[00:03:22]>> Exactly.

[00:03:23]>> They don't think what we call the gospel is the gospel. Why would they expect us to think what they call the gospel is the gospel?

[00:03:29]>> Right. Right.

[00:03:31]This is I mean this is this is a phenomenon I've seen since like beginning to enter the Orthodox church over the last 25 years on the internet.

[00:03:41]It's, you know, people call me a necromancer and, you know, a pagan and an idoltor and I a false teacher and I don't have the gospel and da da da da da. But then if I say they're not my brother in Christ, like how how dare you? How dare you, sir?

[00:04:00]>> Create division.

[00:04:03]>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. you you well it's like uh it's like well I say the uh I say anybody who says you're the one true church that's a heresy but why are you guys not joining us to fight these heretics.

[00:04:16]>> Yeah.

[00:04:17]>> But just think about how different the attitude is from uh the Apostle Paul in in in Philippians 1 where he's talking about people who are actually preaching who are hostile to him. So they don't like an apostle. They don't like an apostle of Jesus Christ. They hate Paul.

[00:04:30]And he says they're preaching from from some some false motives. And he says, 'But whatever their motive, if if Christ is proclaimed, I rejoice. I rejoice that Christ is proclaimed. Even from these people that I that hate me and that I disagree with, I rejoice that they are whatever else they were doing, they were proclaiming Christ accurately. They just had bad motives and so on. But if you if you talk to Muslims, hey, Jesus died on the cross for sins. He rose from the dead. He's Lord. Um, nope. It's all bad because Gohead. You wanted to chime in.

[00:04:55]>> Well, he notice he slipped the word accurately.

[00:04:58]>> Yes. which is precisely what's an issue is that they're not preaching Christ accurately.

[00:05:04]>> Right.

[00:05:06]>> Correct.

[00:05:06]>> Mormons preach Christ to people.

[00:05:10]Jehovah's Witnesses preach Christ to people.

[00:05:14]Okay. So, it's accurately that's what we disagree about, right? If it was just about motives, right?

[00:05:23]If it was just about motives, he would have a point because that's what is what St. Paul is talking about. St. Paul is talking about motives, right?

[00:05:31]But see, here's the problem.

[00:05:34]They're going to come after Jay about his motives.

[00:05:37]>> Mhm.

[00:05:40]>> Whereas I would say, hey, even if every slanderous thing ever said about Jay Dyer was true, he's just a grifter. He's just in it for the money. He's just whatever, whatever, whatever. Hey, he's bringing a lot of people to the Orthodox Church. So I rejoice because for whatever motive Christ is being preached, right?

[00:06:00]>> They're the ones going after Peter people's motives. I'm not I'm not going I assume I'm willing to give David Wood the benefit of the doubt that he really has a heart for Muslim people and wants to see them come to Christ. Right? The question at issue is, are you accurately presenting Christ to those people? Are you really presenting them at all? Are you just presenting them with sort of a vague outline of Christ and then sending them off to get that outline filled in by who knows what, >> right?

[00:06:30]>> Whatever local church they end up at, I'm not trying to pinpoint. We don't look at the church as some type of a trademark institution. We see the church as organically the body of Christ throughout the world, but the church has always been here. There have been periods of apostasy. And I do believe Eastern Orthodoxy is an apostate church just as much as I believe the Roman Catholic Church to be an apostate church. And that's because that because she has deserted the gospel of grace. We can talk about that. But what I am saying is there have been people throughout Christian history who have challenged who have brought reformed who pointed us back to the scriptures.

[00:06:59]People like Augustine, people like Athanasius. And I think it's important for us to realize that when we look at the Old Testament, the same thing happened with the people of God in the Old Testament. You read about all these kings that rule over Israel and they were apostate endorsing pagan practices.

[00:07:13]But yet God had his remnant. We think the days of Elijah. Elijah thought he was the only prophet left. And yet Elijah could uh was was ready to just throw in the towel and he says, "I'm done. Take my life, Lord. I'm the only one left." And the Lord had to remind him that there was still, he says, "I still have 7,000 in reserve who have not bent the kneel me to Baal." And then, of course, in the days of King Josiah, this young 8-year-old kid gets brought to the throne. And then they discover the book of the law in the temple while they're renovating the temple. Remember, this was under the apostasy period in Israel.

[00:07:39]And then when he reads the word of God, he just he he sees the light and he brings these massive reforms. He gets rid of the high places.

[00:07:46]So, he's saying he's saying uh there his his reformed Baptist church is the is the remnant. These evangelicals, they're the remnant. Um he claimed he claimed Augustine was his guy.

[00:08:00]>> That's absurd. I mean, do you have bishops? Tony Costa, you have bishops. I mean, have you ever read any of his work talking about that? Go ahead.

[00:08:07]>> Yeah. So, he he he and from some other the clips I think that were early in the in the video that I saw, he claims a lot of people So like he wants to claim Martin Luther who literally would have had him killed for being a Baptist.

[00:08:21]>> Exactly.

[00:08:22]>> He wants to claim St. Augustine who was a monk and a bishop and clearly believed in seven sacraments.

[00:08:32]And I mean on and on and on and on and on without before we even get to the tiny little bit of Calvinism that Tony Costa believes uh and whether St. Augustine really taught that like on everything else. His ecclesiology was different than than Tony Costas. His his sactology was completely different. His view of church history was completely different. His way of interpreting scripture was completely different. His canon was completely different. His I mean on and on and on, right? And so he just wants to claim these people as his forebears in some vague sense. And and this is the problem. you I respect where he started.

[00:09:13]When when a an actual reformed person comes and says to me, "Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are apostate churches."

[00:09:21]>> I can respect that as long as and a real reformed person will respect this. They respect the fact that I think the same about them.

[00:09:30]>> Right. Yeah.

[00:09:31]>> I don't get all hurt that they think I preach a false gospel.

[00:09:35]>> Right.

[00:09:35]>> Right. But I think they teach a false gospel and as long as they're willing to accept that, right? Then hey, we have no problem. Yeah, I agree. From your perspective, I'm preaching a false go.

[00:09:45]From my perspective, you're preaching a false gospel, right? And so that's the problem. So we're an apostate church, but then he wants to claim a bunch of those apostates as his forebears.

[00:09:56]>> Yeah. Exactly. Ex where he literally says, "We are not restorations." As we're not restorations, we're not like the Mormons. We're not restorationists.

[00:10:04]We just believe we're recovering the apostolic gospel. It's like like you just reverse course in one sentence. Recovering what?

[00:10:14]You're not restoring it, you're recovering it. Those are two Oh, those are totally different things. Oh, okay.

[00:10:18]Okay. Um like you you can't have it both ways. Okay. And in terms of this whole faithful remnant thing he's trying to do, right?

[00:10:30]this I mean obviously he has real covenant theology problems if he's a premillennialist and a Baptist and trying to claim to be reformed at the same time but uh once again he's essentially arguing that the new covenant is no different than the old covenant yeah the old covenant the vast majority of Israel was apostate and there was a faithful remnant and according to St. Paul in Romans. Now again, he's got this weird Calvinist way of reading Romans that he's shoehorned into his Baptist theology.

[00:11:06]>> But if you actually read Romans, St. Paul says that the fulfillment of that faithful remnant that was preserved throughout the Old Testament is Jewish Christianity, which is the root and trunk of the tree into which gentile faithful are grafted.

[00:11:27]So that faithful remnant found its fulfillment.

[00:11:31]>> And when you read the promises about the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, right, and in Ezekiel, the whole promise is this time it's not going to be like the last time.

[00:11:45]This time the Torah is going to be written in our hearts. This time the Holy Spirit is going to keep. This time is going to be different. He's arguing this time is exactly the same.

[00:11:57]exactly the same. And all of those prophecies about the new covenant, I don't know, maybe he's a dispensationalist. Maybe he thinks all of those prophecies about the new covenant aren't fulfilled until the millennial kingdom and that's why things now are are exactly the same as they were, right?

[00:12:15]Maybe. I don't know. I I'm totally confused by how he fits these disperate elements of theology together in his head. Um, and he seems free to contradict himself from sentence to sentence, but right, but but he's saying it's the same, right? And this is another case where I think it would be good for him to talk to a Jewish person, right? Because you know what one of their main arguments against Christianity is?

[00:12:43]One of their main arguments against Christianity is if Jesus is the Messiah and he came 2,000 years ago, why does the world look like this right now?

[00:12:54]Things were supposed to be get better, right? Once the Messiah came, the knowledge of God was supposed to be spread across the whole earth, right?

[00:13:04]And so unless you have an understanding, a real understanding of Christ's church, which requires an orthodox ecclesiology, unless you have a real understanding of the way in which the Holy Spirit through the church has spread the knowledge of God throughout the earth, unless you have an understanding of how those are fulfilled, then Tony Costa has no answer to an Orthodox Jew who says that to him.

[00:13:30]>> Mhm. He's got to say, yeah, that even from Tony Kosa's perspective, most of God's people are still apostates and that Christia coming made no difference.

[00:13:44]>> Let's see. Tony Costa doesn't believe Catholic or Orthodox or orthobaptisms are real. He would agree with the reverse of that gasoline comic. What is your point, David Wood?

[00:13:54]>> Well, what I would say, David, is uh I I I'm a I'm a cradle Baptist. I'm I'm a Baptist minister. I don't believe in infant baptism and and that is why again Roman Catholic Church just because you baptized Niel uh David in the name of the trinity Roman Cath Catholic law or canon law says that baptism can be administered by anyone in the name of the trinity as long as it's in the trinity's name the formula even an atheist if an atheist doctor if a baby's born in the in the delivery room and the doctor takes water and pours it over the head of the infant and says I baptized in the name of the father and the holy spirit that's considered >> sorry god >> I don't know what this has to do with anything why does Roman Catholic cannon Uh >> yeah, I don't know why he's apply why he's appealing Roman Catholic.

[00:14:32]>> That's right. He's now approving Roman Catholic.

[00:14:36]Be correct.

[00:14:37]>> What's up, Jim Bob? Good to see you in the chat.

[00:14:40]>> Yeah, that's that's wild.

[00:14:42]>> How you say that about me? I like you just fine.

[00:14:46]>> Jim Bob, you take that back, Doug.

[00:14:50]Talk about Tony Costa. Yeah, that's that's weird. I don't know why he would do like an appeal to authority to the Roman Catholic canon law system. That's odd.

[00:15:00]>> Yeah.

[00:15:03]>> Baptism. So, as as a >> cradle Baptist, which means believers baptism. I I don't we don't believe in infant baptism. We don't practice it.

[00:15:12]But that doesn't mean that you're going to hell. Uh we believe that the gospel is the power of God into salvation to everyone who believes, the Jew first and then the Greek. Romans 1:16. And we believe that it is faith in Christ alone that saves. Uh not baptism. And so there are people in the Eastern Orthodox Church that are genuinely saved. They're probably babes in Christ. They're young, but they're saved because not because of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but in spite of the Eastern Orthodox Church teaching. I mean, the reformers were Roman Catholics before before they they were booted out. And and so I believe that anyone who puts their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 16:30-31 says, "What must I do to be saved?" Notice the answer Paul gives, David. The answer Paul gives is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you and your household." Notice, believe, have faith, trust in him, and we're saved by grace through faith.

[00:15:59]>> What?

[00:16:00]>> If you believe, your household will be saved.

[00:16:05]>> What was that, Tony Costa?

[00:16:10]>> Mind's blown.

[00:16:13]>> It's a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. And so notice that the the gospel message, David, the gospel message is rooted in the death of Christ, the burial, the resurrection of Christ. It is the power of God into salvation to all who believe and are justified by faith alone in Christ. And so Romans 8:1, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

[00:16:34]Um, and that is that is really this is really where it's at. It is the gospel.

[00:16:38]Paul says, if you get that gospel wrong in in Galatians 1:6-9, if you get that gospel wrong, he says you are anathema.

[00:16:45]And then he says that if we the apostles were to come back and preach another gospel, count us to be anathema. So you can get all your theology right, you can get the trinity right, all the fundamentals of the faith right. Paul says if you get the gospel wrong and it's another gospel, that is anathema.

[00:17:00]And so the Judaizers that Paul was contending with, he never said they denied the body resurrection of Christ or the deity of Christ.

[00:17:07]>> Yeah. Well, it's like I mean he doesn't coverage to Judaizers if they're so bad.

[00:17:14]Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:17:17]Exactly. Well, that's that's funny because I was talking to those IFB guys and they were talking about that uh Leviticus passage talking about how to handle people of certain in inclinations.

[00:17:29]Um and they were saying that still applies today. We should still do that.

[00:17:32]We should line them up. So on and so forth. And I was talking to them and I was like I was like so what you're like you believe like you have to hold to the letter of the Old Testament law. So what? You got to be like circumcised to be saved. You got to be, you know, like what what what are all your positions? You don't realize that by taking this line of reasoning, you're basically arguing exactly like a Judaizer, >> right?

[00:17:58]>> It's interesting. And then would fall under the, you know, the Galatians and go ahead.

[00:18:03]>> Don't get lost in the uh plenteousness of Tony Costa's verbiage here in answering this question.

[00:18:10]He is agreeing with that super chat.

[00:18:14]>> He is saying that the Eastern Orthodox Church is >> anathema.

[00:18:19]>> He is saying that when we preach what we call the gospel, we are spraying gasoline.

[00:18:27]>> Right?

[00:18:28]>> He is saying he agrees with the reverse of that meme directed toward orthodoxy.

[00:18:33]That is exactly what he is saying now.

[00:18:36]And he's hoping that by muddying the waters he can make them appear deep and right that that if he had just simply said yes that would look mean right but that is what he is saying he has already called the Orthodox church an apostate church he's called the church of Christ the apostate church >> and he is now saying we don't have the gospel and that we are >> anathema >> okay and if you believe the Holy Spirit indwells Christ Church.

[00:19:09]Arguably, he's blaspheing the Holy Spirit right now.

[00:19:15]Lord have mercy.

[00:19:17]>> Right? Because if the Holy Spirit is at work in the Orthodox Church, doesn't have to be full-on orthodoxy is true. Just if the Holy Spirit is working in the Orthodox Church and he's calling that anathema, that's blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

[00:19:35]What they denied was the gospel of grace by faith alone. They wanted to add works to it. So the Gnostics, the Judaizers, very very old movements that go right back to the apostles. These movements were immediately called out because they were preaching out of the gospel. And that's really where it's at. Uh David, I don't see the gospel of grace preached in these churches in in Eastern North.

[00:19:54]And uh >> yeah, and I think that that's the that's the the sad part is it doesn't need to be inviting in my opinion, right? Like a lot of this, >> but they're not in, they're out. It's not infighting in the like I think colloquially we can say that of course they're like Christians but in the most proper sense of the term they are not orthodox Christians are Christians right I mean they're they're not they're not in they are out >> yes I don't claim to know what God's judgment of them is going to be on the day of judgment >> right like I do not claim that at all right But uh are are they on the right path right now?

[00:20:38]Uh only vaguely, right?

[00:20:44]They're moving, you know, if if the correct direction to go is east, they're moving like northnortheast and they're on the wrong street, right?

[00:20:55]>> To get to the destination we want to go to, >> right? sort of vaguely in that direction, but not >> Yeah.

[00:21:02]>> High priest always said it this way. He says th those of those who are heterodox are like, >> you know, the Orthodox church is like, oh, they they paved a road. They have they they gave a cobblestone road. It's a nice walking path. It has beautiful lights. It even has like some mosquito traps to get those annoying pesks out of your way while you're walking towards the mountain. You see this beautiful mountain that you're just trying to get to. There's a nice summer retreat there.

[00:21:25]And the Orthodox Church provides everything along the way. rest stops, um medicine if you ever hurt yourself, water to drink while you're walking.

[00:21:32]It's like it's it's great and there'll be challenges, but you know, there's things that they provide to get you there, right? He says with the with the heterodox, he says it's like they're stumbling stumbling through the wilderness through the trees just off the road and they're like they're fighting through the weeds and weed whacking. They're going the opposite direction sometimes. Sometimes they manage to go in the right direction. and they but they see through the trees occasionally they'll see this mountain that they're trying to get to but there's no guarantee they'll find their way to that mountain because they refuse to get on the path. someone and someone sees them and says, "Hey, there's a path here. It takes you to the mountain."

[00:22:08]They go, "No, no, no, no, no. I got to find the path myself, right?" And it's like me. It's all centered on the individual. So, >> well, and it's I don't think David Wood realizes that a lot of these people he's having on are way more exclusive than us >> because Tony Costa wouldn't agree with me.

[00:22:28]Tony Costa claims he knows >> what the verdict for him is going to be on the day of judgment >> and for me and that mine's going to be negative because I don't believe in his version of the gospel.

[00:22:39]>> Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:22:41]>> Okay. Tony Costa believes I'm going to hell.

[00:22:45]>> He said so.

[00:22:47]>> He said so on David Wood's stream. He said I'm going to hell. Okay. I never said Tony Costa was going to hell. I don't believe he's going to hell. I said he's outside the church, meaning the Orthodox church, but I ne I never claimed to know God's verdict on his soul. He claims to know mine.

[00:23:08]And he said it. He said we're apostate church. He said we were anathema, right?

[00:23:16]And he said that if you don't believe the gospel the way he framed it, you're not justified. Meaning negative verdict, condemned to hell. Okay, that's exclusive, man.

[00:23:29]>> Yeah.

[00:23:30]>> Us saying, "Hey, you're not in the church and it would be better if you were, but we don't know what God's verdict on you is going to be." That's way less exclusive.

[00:23:40]>> Yeah.

[00:23:40]>> Than the guys he David Wood is having on here to tell the Orthodox they're all going to hell and don't have the gospel.

[00:23:48]Right.

[00:23:51]>> Yeah. It's time to evangelize the evangelicals, guys. They need to hear the gospel.

[00:23:56]>> And you you you mentioned a miscalculation. I think it's a a serious miscalculation because like I mean, you know, uh my my friend AP, he decides to go the Eastern Orthodox route. I never said one word to him to try to discourage him from going in that route.

[00:24:09]And even when I see icons, I'm like, "Okay, well, that that looks kind of weird, but I don't know. Maybe, maybe."

[00:24:14]>> I mean, Father Steven, isn't everything that's different or new at least a little bit weird the first time you see it? is yeah >> that has nothing to do with the truth or falsity or the propriety of a certain there's no actual argument it's just hebies >> kissing things is weird >> that's that's really what the objection boils down to is I don't want to >> right I'm a germaphobe >> you're going to say that I'm anathema for this like well it's not just that it's there's a lot of theology that goes behind it there's a bunch of reasons why this is a dogma, right?

[00:24:54]>> But I had no idea that you're like doomed if you don't uh venerate these icons and have these saints.

[00:25:04]>> You'll die alone.

[00:25:05]>> Yeah. Doomed.

[00:25:08]Like I don't know. I don't even know how to like >> if you have a really good understanding of the Old Testament. It seems clear to me that like those the conclusions you see in St. Dianicius the Aropagite that like the symbols are like a connection between the scene and the unseen. This doesn't seem like too far-fetched of a conclusion to draw just by like reading through the Psalms and just like kind of visualizing understanding like what worship was like in the Old Testament.

[00:25:37]Like that's where your content has helped me so much, Father Stephen. Just like being able to understand like exactly how did they worship? Like what what was going on there? Like all these images in the the tabernacle are there for a reason. Like they represent something. It's what Moses saw on the mountain. It's so that God has an abode uh among his people. Like this theology of symbols just goes so deep and it's it's right there in the text. You just need to like look at it. And maybe that's why you just need the Orthodox RNEA cuz without the the the guidance of the holy fathers like you're prone to miss these otherwise like in hindsight blatantly obvious things.

[00:26:22]>> Well, yeah. And they don't I've yet to hear a Protestant or an evangelical say, "Okay, wait. They anathemaize people for not being willing to kiss an icon. Why?

[00:26:41]>> Yeah.

[00:26:42]>> Why do they think that's so serious an issue? That seems like a small thing to me.

[00:26:46]>> What are their reasons for it?

[00:26:47]>> Yes. What is their reasoning behind that? They never even ask.

[00:26:50]>> It's just one more it's it's one more uh I maybe order of magnitude, one more decimal point like one more one higher order question. That's it. It's like just a little bit more.

[00:27:03]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because then we could get into, well, this has to do with issues of christologology. This has to get through get deal with uh, you know, we could go through the whole thing and then say, so if you're not cool with kissing an icon because you think it's weird and gives you the heebie-jebies, we're not talking to you, right? If you say it's wrong to venerate an icon because God is not able to work through matter, you're a Gnostic. And now we have a problem.

[00:27:34]Yeah.

[00:27:35]>> Okay. So, but you have to at least be inquisitive.

[00:27:42]And I don't understand that lack of inquisitiveness. I don't understand hearing something that you don't understand. It doesn't make sense to you. And so, you just reject it.

[00:27:52]>> They're not interested.

[00:27:53]>> Rather than that inspiring me to, oh, hey, >> I kind of want to understand this.

[00:27:58]>> Yeah. I'm even doing this with random people like like last night talking to to Cleave about the other Paul.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah.

[00:28:06]>> Right. I could not figure out for the life of me. I'm like the other Paul does not seem like a stupid person to me.

[00:28:10]>> And you listen you listen to the stream.

[00:28:12]>> Yeah. This whole demons and icons thing doesn't make sense to me and he doesn't seem dumb.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah.

[00:28:18]>> Right. So like why? How is >> Right. And I listen to that stream and I'm like oh okay. I mean I still disagree with him. Right. But I feel this is how he's thinking about >> any reason. Yes.

[00:28:29]>> Yes. This is how he's thinking about it.

[00:28:31]>> Yeah.

[00:28:31]>> And and from that perspective, what he said does make sense.

[00:28:36]>> Yeah.

[00:28:36]>> And he is indeed not dumb, right? From his perspective, right? There just he's coming from a very different perspective. And so we need to move the critique from the detail to the perspective level.

[00:28:50]>> Yeah.

[00:28:50]>> Right. Reframe the perspective level.

[00:28:52]Right. Rather than continuing to argue about, you know, the twig at the end of the branch, we got to argue about the branch, right?

[00:28:58]>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:29:01]>> Tony Costa has the kind of understanding of church history that you get from going to a reformed Baptist seminary, which is it's very much a talking heads view of history, church history, where you're just sort of hopping these individual figures. You just got to hop skip. you don't talk a lot about their context. A lot of times they'll put people into dialogue with each other who lived a thousand years apart.

[00:29:29]>> Yeah.

[00:29:30]>> You know, um it's a very talking heads view of history and the talking heads are selected. It's sort of a good guy bad guy thing based on how much they agreed with >> the version of reformed Baptist that not on purpose representing, right? So like St. Augustine uh is mo is a very ambivalent figure for them because they like all of >> the quasi Calvinist stuff. Uh they don't like his ecclesiology, his sactology, his his platonism. Um they're they're deeply closeted Pltonist. Uh they hate Pltonism, but they're very plonist in their thinking.

[00:30:11]>> The dualism. Yeah.

[00:30:12]>> Yeah. And then you have other figures who are good guys and other figures who are bad guys. Tertullian for some reason, including with Costa, is a good guy. Uh, in this version, >> he is not, >> but it's this good guy, bad guy thing, sort of weaving weaving through history, not taking into account their context, not taking into account actual parallels like Costa talking about how great Luther was, you know, who would have had him killed.

[00:30:39]>> Yeah.

[00:30:39]>> Or his beliefs, right? like and so it's not Tony Ka is not dumb, right? But that's the way history was taught to him, >> right?

[00:30:50]>> And that's the way he views and he operates at it. And like the vast majority of people, even smart people, even people with PhDs, the vast majority of them never go to the metal level of thinking beyond the way it was taught to them.

[00:31:06]>> Yeah.

[00:31:06]>> And critically examining that.

[00:31:09]>> Yeah.

[00:31:11]It's a shame, but it's true.

[00:31:13]>> Well, the thing about Aosta, or I say Aosta, Aosta. Um, >> did he >> I'm not even uh he uh he does Would him and Ryan from Need God, would they even agree? I feel like Ryan would wouldn't even agree with him. Like, I feel like Ryan would be even >> Ryan's pretty extreme, honestly.

[00:31:35]>> Yeah, don't don't get me wrong. When I said that he laid out that he thinks I'm going to hell, that was the one section of that stream that I actually respected.

[00:31:45]That was the one part of that stream where he just laid out his own view in some detail with Bible verses.

[00:31:51]>> Yeah.

[00:31:51]>> Right. I totally respect that and totally respect that honesty. Right. I I respect that way more than anything Rouslon's doing with his hustle or whatever. Uh right. Like >> I'm not thinking about theology. You got another soundboard. But >> and I'm and I'm an adult man. Okay. The fact that another adult man thinks I'm wrong and going to hell doesn't hurt my feelings.

[00:32:15]>> Yeah.

[00:32:16]>> I mean, it helps that I'm Gen X and don't have them, but I'm not all hurt about it. If I was on Twitter and he blocked me, I wouldn't care, right? I wouldn't cry. I wouldn't Right.

[00:32:28]Like, it's who who cares? Like, yes, that's your beliefs. And so like this is part of the thing with Protestants too. I went to Westminster Seminary. I'm used to sitting down with Presbyterian friends and stuff and us both telling each other we're heretics and going to hell from our respective perspectives and having a few beers and going home friends.

[00:32:53]Like I don't understand this. Like you said I'm an strong language cuz I won't kiss your icon.

[00:33:01]Like you're an adult man.

[00:33:05]>> Grow up.

[00:33:06]>> Yes. You're an adult man. Muslims think you're going to hell. You think Muslims are going to hell.

[00:33:13]Okay. Like I have all those conversations with my my Orthodox Jewish friend.

[00:33:18]>> Yeah.

[00:33:19]>> We're totally clear. He thinks I'm an idoltor believing in the Trinity. Okay.

[00:33:27]I have told him I don't know how God's going to judge you on the day of judgment. But rejecting the Messiah isn't going to help. Okay. I have directly told him that multiple times, >> right?

[00:33:37]>> Right.

[00:33:37]>> I think you need to accept that Jesus is the Messiah.

[00:33:40]>> We can say that to each other and still be friends and still have a >> Yeah.

[00:33:45]>> dialogue because we're adult men.

[00:33:47]>> And unless you've got some really awesome case now tons of other people are going to be like, "Whoa, I didn't know they said whoa, what? You're going to hell unless you unless you kiss this this icon. What? They said what?" And so, uh, anyway, um, like like if you ask me right now, if you ask me right now, like if if Andrew Wilson was on there or something like that, he said, "David, >> say that say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is is a false church. Say if that's your position, I'd be like, "No, I haven't I haven't heard your case yet.

[00:34:10]I'm going listen to your case first."

[00:34:12]But after I've listened to your case, if all I see are a bunch of problems and a weak case for why I should believe it in spite of the problems, all of a sudden now I I I might end up being hostile towards it and telling people not to that that's that's just wrong. And I want >> I don't know, Father Stephen. Uh, is there like a church father? Let's say some a Protestant has grown up Protestant their whole life. They've never heard about orthodoxy or an evangelical. They grew up evangelical their whole life, never heard about orthodoxy, never kissed an icon. Well, I guess they're going to hell because they've never kissed an icon, right?

[00:34:45]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:47]>> This straight oneway ticket.

[00:34:48]>> People on the aisle of Fiji, right? Like never kiss an icon. Straight to hell.

[00:34:52]just one way ticket. That's right.

[00:34:55]>> Yeah. It's the same people. It's the same people that were going like like I feel like the people they're talking to and the people that they have in their head are actually like the Latinizers who actually hold that if these people weren't baptized straight to hell.

[00:35:08]Straight to hell. It's like that meme uh done straight to hell.

[00:35:12]>> Yeah.

[00:35:12]>> You know. Well, that's and it's like we don't think anything's that mechanical.

[00:35:18]>> Yeah.

[00:35:19]>> But see the the higher tier guys wouldn't say that. You brought up by Gordon would not say that like, oh that that means you think that somebody on a desert island go to hell.

[00:35:30]>> He understands the idea of the ordinary means of grace, right? Like >> yeah, >> this is basic theological stuff even in Western theology.

[00:35:38]>> Yeah, >> right. That if you're deep in Western theology, you understand.

[00:35:43]>> Orthodox Tony five bucks. Father Steven, was Martin Luther that messed up in the mind that he would have killed they would have someone killed for their beliefs? I gotta have a source for this.

[00:35:52]You're getting sight checked, Father Stephen.

[00:35:54]>> Okay. Uh >> well, literally Google Martin Luther, >> start with his book on the Jews and their lies.

[00:36:03]>> Uh then you can move on to his the speeches he gave, the sermons he gave uh during the peasants revolt where he encouraged the princes to massacre all the peasants.

[00:36:13]Uh and then you can go to a little bit of Anabaptist history where he had them drowned.

[00:36:21]It's pretty rough way to go >> after he endorsed the slaughter of the entire town of Munchin that the Anabaptist had taken over.

[00:36:30]>> Uh drowning would not be. So I I'm not really I'm not afraid of death as a Christian. Father Steven, the method, however, >> yes, there are preferred and less preferred.

[00:36:43]>> Drowning is not amongst my preferred method seems like a pretty bad one.

[00:36:50]Uh yes, there's the source, Orthodox Tony. Sorry if I was a little glib there. Thank you for the super chat.

[00:36:56]>> They join this movement and it's like they start thumping the chest. Yeah, we're part of the the true church. It's almost like cheerleaders and and then I talk to Eastern Orthodox folks and they're like, "Well, I only go to church at Christmas, uh Easter, you know, the celebrating the assumption of Mary and so on." Many of them don't even keep the fast. They're supposed to fast before um Christmas and and Easter. A lot of the Orthodox I personally know, David, are cultural. They're Greek or they're Russian or Ukrainian. And many of them, they don't talk like these guys. You know, the new converts, just like in Islam, when you hear of a new convert in Islam, they become very zealous. And in Islam, you know, a lot of them commit terrorist acts because they're going back to the primary sources. And so, they act out what they believe Muhammad said in the Hadith and the Quran. So, I think what it is is we're seeing this wave of these new converts into Eastern Orthodoxy and they become overly zealous. And it just seems to me it's very similar to these new converts to Islam. They they're one of the most zealous of of the Muslims that I know.

[00:37:53]>> I know a lot of reformed people. I grew up around Dutch people, right? Reformed people, Scottish people. Most of them only go to church a couple times a year.

[00:38:01]uh they don't really know much about Calvinism and doctrine and stuff and they just you know and they don't talk like these guys like Tony Costa who come and you know have all of this convert zeal because they discovered you know uh as an adult and you know I live in in southern Louisiana where I'm surrounded by 70% Roman Catholics most of whom only go to church on Christmas and Easter and the rest are Baptists who mostly only go to church on on Christmas and Easter because they're they're cultural Baptists This is the world, dude.

[00:38:35]Yes. Most Christians in Western countries where Christianity is legal, unfortunately, are to some degree nominal or not observant and are culturally Christian.

[00:38:46]>> Yeah, >> that's that's all that's every group that identifies as Christian. That's true. But then secondly, right, he sits here and uh he shifts from on one hand, oh, I know all of these people who are ethnically orthodox, who are not observant, they're supposed to fast and they don't. They're supposed to do this and they don't. But people who come to orthodoxy and actually take that seriously and do fast and do go to church every week and do it, that's bad somehow.

[00:39:15]>> Yeah. He compares us to to terrorists.

[00:39:17]>> Yeah, that's bad.

[00:39:19]>> What? going to church every week and doing what you're supposed to do. And how does that not apply to him as a convert to Calvinism or whatever?

[00:39:27]Convert to his own reformed Baptist malange, right, for being a Ro. He was a Roman Catholic and he converted to this, right? I bet he goes to church every week. I bet he does the stuff his church tells him to do. Why doesn't the same critique apply to him?

[00:39:42]>> Yeah, you're basically you're basically uh you're basically a jihadist if you go to church every week, according to Wednesday night, too. Wow. You weird.

[00:39:55]>> You're basically uh Yeah, you're basically Bin Laden. You go to church on Wednesday, too.

[00:39:59]>> I heard he sends his kids to Aana. He's going to blow himself up any day now.

[00:40:05]>> That's funny. Um that Yeah, they were pretty messed up. Um so much so that Jesus could say that they are lukewarm.

[00:40:12]They're neither hot nor cold. He's going to spit them out of his mouth. Uh that is not commendable language coming from the savior. Uh and he's the one who judges the churches. So >> yes, we claim that every single Orthodox parish is infallible and perfect.

[00:40:27]>> Like what even is that?

[00:40:29]>> I don't know.

[00:40:32]really honestly. So when I say this is worse than I thought it was going to be, the only actual helpful useful thing so far in this Tony Costa did at one at that one point he did lay out what he believes the gospel is, right? He laid out a thing. Here's what I think the gospel is. Cited some scripture. He said that's not taught in the Orthodox church. Right?

[00:40:58]>> That was the one piece, right? so far and I have a feeling that's going to be the only piece in four hours, right? is is that one thing. But what would what is needed again if David Wood listens to this what you really need if you're going to talk about responding to is is more like that more of a positive case for a Protestant perspective and then actual critiques of orthodoxy. But pointing out that just like in the book of Revelation, individual Orthodox parishes are kind of messed up is not making any points about anything. We all acknowledge that, right? Like, >> right.

[00:41:39]>> I mean, my parish is perfect and full of saints for me. They have a crummy priest, >> but >> there you go.

[00:41:45]>> They get by with a crummy priest because they're also holy. But, >> uh, I am Dunning Krueger uh, with the super chat. Prior super chat. My primary question was would it serve to emphasize we're not trying to invalidate the heterodoxis prior experiences of God but rather establish the church is the tilos through those experiences. So I guess those are all leading you to orthodoxy >> leading you to the church. Yes.

[00:42:11]>> Well they're leading you to Christ and Christ is in his church.

[00:42:14]>> Correct. Yes.