Shri J. Sai Deepak | Valedictory Address | Somnath - National Symposium

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[00:00:00]We will now be joined by Shri J Sai Deepak Ji live from Delhi.

[00:00:09]He's here.

[00:00:11]Before he begins, it is my pleasure to introduce Shri J Sai Deepak Ji, a senior advocate by profession. He practices primarily before the Supreme Court, the Delhi High Court, and the NCLAT. He's an alumnus of Anna University and IIT Kharagpur.

[00:00:27]He began his career with Sai Krishna and Associates before founding the law chambers of J Sai Deepak in 2016. He's also the best-selling author of India That Is Bharat and India, Bharat, and Pakistan. I now request Shri J Sai Deepak Ji to address the audience.

[00:00:44]>> Uh first of all, I'd like to thank the organizers uh FIHRC and Brihat for putting together this wonderful event at this auspicious venue at this historic venue.

[00:00:57]And I'm grateful that finally I have I have been fortunate enough to secure space alongside Shri Kapil Kapoor, who I truly think is the tapasvi uh that all of us look up to when it comes to historiography. So, I genuinely hope that I don't embarrass myself in his presence when I speak on a subject in which he's a master of and I'm just a lay student.

[00:01:20]Um I'm also grateful to uh specifically to Vikram Sampath, who's a dear friend, and Raghav Ji, who's also a very dear friend, uh for the work that they have undertaken at a policy level to set right in certain legacy issues which have haunted us for generations.

[00:01:41]And I hope that they manage to and not hope, I'm sure. I'm actually positive that they will come out with brilliant scholars who can be trained under their guidance and the guidance of tapasvis like Dr. Kapil Kapoor.

[00:01:54]Uh I've just come from court, so my sincere apologies if there is incoherence in the way I speak or or if there is lack of coherence in the script uh uh which I usually don't have.

[00:02:07]So, let me just start with Hello, I think a couple of issues which I think are important. The topic I think for this session is the falsehood of left historiography.

[00:02:19]Um I think I have done my fair share in my limited capacity in terms of exposing the falsehood of leftist historiography.

[00:02:35]Which I think is perhaps the easier thing to do.

[00:02:39]I think the next few years, and hopefully not decades, will require us to confront the problems with the non-left historiography as well.

[00:02:50]Where there are two sets of problems that I see.

[00:02:53]One is the acceptance of the frameworks of the left, the worldview of the left, and the facts presented by the left, if they can be called so, in an unthinking fashion.

[00:03:10]I have never operated with the belief or under the assumption that everything that the left has to present is of no value whatsoever.

[00:03:18]Accepting some aspect that the left may present doesn't necessarily make us left.

[00:03:23]It only means that on certain issues we are capable of applying our own viveka filters and accepting if there is truth and sense and logic to it.

[00:03:33]The third, rather the problem is threefold as I as I mentioned. One is the framework, the second is the worldview, and third of course is the other facts presented.

[00:03:46]Now, it's one thing for that historiography to occupy an isolated academic space.

[00:03:55]But if our experience tells us, history has rarely been left in rarefied academic spheres as far as Bharat is concerned.

[00:04:02]What is taught in colleges and schools becomes the basis for formation of opinions and world views of the future.

[00:04:11]It then gets rolled into policy action before it becomes a political tool.

[00:04:16]And that's how it has typically worked.

[00:04:19]That process would be wonderful if it is based in reality, if it is based in our grounded and good intentions, with a sound understanding of how Bharatiya, specifically Sanatani, Darshnik, and let's say theological world views operate.

[00:04:40]I could be wrong, and I'm I've been pilloried for saying this in the past, but nevertheless, I think it's important for us to speak the truth somewhere.

[00:04:48]I think we are way past the sell-by date of bashing the left.

[00:04:55]I think that job has been done significantly over the last 6-7 years, thanks to the work of several uh let's say legends and authors and stalwarts in their own right, including Dr. Sampat, Shri Sanjeev Sanyal, and others.

[00:05:10]And let's say peer two authors like me who have built on the works of stalwarts in the past and the present.

[00:05:18]Now, I think it's time to look inward and correct some of the legacy issues that continue to haunt us.

[00:05:25]And I think there are two sets of issues that I'd like to point out in terms of areas of homework, if I may put it that way.

[00:05:33]First is the question of understanding the out-group.

[00:05:41]And therefore, what are these external threats in terms of the threats that have existed the past and how they continue to be present.

[00:05:51]And I also believe as academics or historiographers, it is not enough if you merely archive or chronicle the past.

[00:06:02]We must also endeavor to formulate solutions which have a policy impact in the present.

[00:06:10]So, one of the things that I think that organizations like FIHRC and at their wonderful synergy produces is a think tank that produces wonderful history and has lessons for the present which then gets crystallized into policy recommendations through policy think tanks such as Priha. And that synergy I think is something that we should have arrived at long ago. Finally, it's happening and I'm I'm so happy that I I'm in a generation where I'm able to see its work and I will continue to be around hopefully for decades to see how this plays out and I will actively support in every way I can.

[00:06:48]Two um It's always been said maybe with a certain sense a sense of angst, anxiety, or even retribution that since the left has done this with the support of the state, maybe the non-left too must replicate it.

[00:07:05]But increasingly I'm of the view that the state's role in crafting of history regardless of who is in power is deeply problematic. That is perhaps something that is best left to experts.

[00:07:18]And hopefully the state will leave that issue to experts to fashion.

[00:07:24]And present itself as a multiplier platform or an amplifying platform with a megaphone in hand as opposed to interfering with the integrity of the content and its loyalty to truth and facts.

[00:07:38]Um Therefore these institutions and these organizations which are populated by people who are subject matter experts with a clear sense of understanding of how the subject is to be approached with respect for Dharma, with reverence and veneration for Bharat Mata which are prerequisites according to me and if one wants to serve this civilization through the cause of history or through the medium of history.

[00:08:05]And the larger issue that I think we will we will have to address as we go along is the convergence of history, theology and ontology where we will have to address the question which has been banished from public spaces thanks to the advent of secularism and modernity which is the ornamental role that spirituality has been relegated to which is the foundation of Bharat as a civilization and as a society.

[00:08:36]And maybe someday we will once again become comfortable talking about consciousness related issues, rituals, spirituality Yagna's, Homa's from public platforms, in public spaces without any sense of shame or self-loathing or embarrassment.

[00:08:53]That I would think would be the ultimate success in terms of our internal success points or metrics.

[00:09:01]From an external perspective is to break the stereotype that we are so introspective that we are insular and we are isolationist without any attempt at engaging with the rest of the world.

[00:09:16]Nothing could be further from the truth if one were to look at the Aryan spirits uh uh ambitions or its ability to action its will on the ground.

[00:09:30]And I use the word Aryan responsibly in a non-racial sense from a consciousness perspective as a product of the civilization.

[00:09:40]And I would hope that our historiography also has the ability to build a network and alliances across the world so that the message of Bharat is not limited to a bunch of stereotypes through uh graveyards built by uh Mughal invaders and uh our stereotypes surrounding Bollywood and Bharatiya history, spirituality, balance, science, and contributions across the pool of human thought uh becomes a matter of common knowledge in the rest of the world and we're able to use history as a tool, not a weapon, to build alliances to effect course correction and hopefully achieve truth and reconciliation and trigger the revival of uh let's say natural systems proto-dhamic systems or dharmic clonal systems across the world through uh revival of polytheistic systems across the world because I believe that Hindus are safer in a polytheistic world compared to a monochromatic world.

[00:10:47]So, in the interest of our own safety and also in the interest of expanding Dharma our goal must be to revive that across the world and build alliances wherever possible.

[00:10:57]I don't believe in interfaith dialogues which are meaningless according to me because those interfaith dialogues try to find uh if one is the same as the other.

[00:11:09]We must perhaps operate with the assumption that even if we are not, so what?

[00:11:14]And those differences must be accepted so long as it doesn't result in the need to annihilate one another.

[00:11:20]So, political spheres of influence along with theological and historical spheres of influence those three layers is how I see the way of the future.

[00:11:31]And obviously none of this is going to be possible purely through academics. I understand the value of power as a constitutional lawyer and a civil commercial litigant. Therefore, I operate in the realm of economics and power and institutional power in that sense. So, I don't operate under any idealistic assumptions of how this can be done by the poor Brahmin or the poor academic himself. That's not going to happen. We need money, we need power, and we also need the media and the conduits to get the job done to push it >> as aggressive as much as possible as far as possible.

[00:12:03]>> Uh that said, I would wish and I this is a genuine auspicious hope that platforms and initiatives in this direction never run out of resources whatsoever and hopefully they don't have to depend on state largess to get the job done. They can depend on the state to create a path, but the money should come from the society to increase stake holdership as widely as possible.

[00:12:29]And I remember one of these legendary speeches or lectures of Dr. Kapoor where he specifically said that there was a point in Hindu history when every rich person would want to be seen as contributing to two things. One is expansion of the Veda and the protection of the cow, Veda Pathshala and Go Shala.

[00:12:49]And I hope that we come back to a point where these define prosperity, success, and character more than material possessions. And I say this as someone who has no no um who doesn't celebrate poverty. I certainly don't celebrate poverty, but I know that resources, material prosperity cannot be the end goals. They are the means to an end and hopefully a spiritual end.

[00:13:15]And if they themselves become the means of the goals, then the kind of dystopian society that all of us would be living in uh we could perhaps look at the West to see how how all of would end.

[00:13:28]And I use the word end in a very responsible way.

[00:13:32]So, not just in the sense of a destination, but that would literally be the end of the Western civilization.

[00:13:37]So, the task, the vision, and the scope of of of the goals that we have cut out for for ourselves, I think is huge and vast. Which means there is a lot of scope for accommodating a lot of people.

[00:13:53]And therefore, we need not be bogged down by unhealthy competitive unhealthy competitive spirits. I think there must be a spirit of cooperation as much as possible.

[00:14:03]Respecting the other's strength while being cognizant of one's own strength and finding ways to complement, synergize, and multiply or amplify. I think that's the way to go forward.

[00:14:15]Uh I'm so happy that we are in a generation when we can see the institutionalization of such initiatives through private action along with the uh kind of support that's coming from the government which needs to be recognized in the context of Indic knowledge systems.

[00:14:36]With the wider ecosystem playing its role in terms of generating talent and providing platforms and creating audiences as well. All three are important. The messenger, the message, the platform, and the audience. In that sense, it's I think it's a it's a rectangular or it's a quadrangular uh equation.

[00:14:54]Uh I generally don't wish to sit and hold forth on certain aspects of history because that would be an insult to the presence of of someone like Dr. Kapil Kapoor.

[00:15:05]I will close my remarks on the subject at this point. If there are any questions, I'm happy to take them.

[00:15:19]Just one uh perhaps housekeeping issue.

[00:15:22]I'm looking at the poster. So, I don't know if I'm speaking to an audience or not. So, at this point it seems as if I'm speaking to myself and I'm very uncomfortable with it.

[00:15:40]>> Can you hear us?

[00:15:41]>> Yes, I can hear.

[00:15:44]>> Uh this is rather here uh sorry.

[00:15:46]>> Yes, I can hear your voice. Yes.

[00:15:47]>> Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

[00:15:49]So, we've had a fantastic day and I can say that you would have loved to be here because young scholars >> I have my loss.

[00:15:56]>> an entire range of very very critical presentations. And I think we didn't plan it this way, but your summary just now sort of brought it all together. Because you're talking about the environment and how enabling environment needs to come together for the scholarship to become impactful. So, thank you for that. Just just one maybe reflection from your side on on some of the cases that you are fighting now and what would be good historical scholarships from our side that can help and how can we assist you?

[00:16:31]>> I'm so grateful for this question. I think it's a wonderful application-oriented question. Thank you for it. One uh just so that I clarify my role as well.

[00:16:40]I'm fundamentally a hard-nosed commercial litigator who loves constitutional law or let's say public international law as a subject. Therefore, I've brought my hard-nosed skill as a commercial litigator to bear on the causes I believe in because I believe that if constitutional law is left exclusively to constitutional lawyers then I think we will suffer because I don't think that should happen because they have a tendency to uh get extremely activist as opposed to having a very practical approach.

[00:17:08]Now, uh to answer your specific question, here are the areas that I think we could be working on. One, I think uh aspects relating to reservation policies have not been supported with historical data or hard studies at least of the last 200 to 300 years to support some of the axiomatic assumptions in respect of this oppression or oppressor oppressed framework which the Indian state uh buys lock, stock, and barrel regardless of who wields the reins of power.

[00:17:46]So, I do believe that on the aspect of policy making including the realm of courts and justiciability of policies or judicial review of policies um Jati related Varna related literature needs to come out without any pixelation of the truth.

[00:18:07]We will have to accept history with all its non-linearity, with its warts, and we have to find ways to deal with it in the present.

[00:18:16]So, that's one thing that I would suggest as one potential homework area.

[00:18:20]Second is um increasingly I see two different trends.

[00:18:28]One there is a reawakening with respect to the importance of ritual and its connection to spirituality. And therefore the stupidity of uh I'm spiritual but not religious is hopefully on the decline.

[00:18:40]So, maybe what exactly does it translate to? How have rituals kept communities alive and community memory alive and what is its actual relationship with an inward journey? I think that's one aspect because I see a lot of questions coming my way from Gen Z on the subject, those who want to be invited into the fold.

[00:18:58]Three, a much neglected area in the realm of studies from the non-left is environment. And we typically speak of environment from an archival perspective or we try and connect it with pilgrimages. But what are the concrete environmental policies that we are in a position to offer as solutions to the Indian state uh when it is looking at lifting millions of people out of poverty. How do you actually redefine sustainable development or development for the Indian state? Because any suggestion that comes from people who speak for environment are dismissed as impractical, unreasonable, and in the realm of theory or in the realm of fiction.

[00:19:37]Where we are being told that you're only harkening back to the ancient past, you don't know how to live in the present, and you don't know the way of the future for sure. That's what we are being told.

[00:19:45]So, I'd like to understand what is it that we can do. So, environment jati, that's one. Three, um the the aspect of gender politics. The aspect of gender politics is extremely important.

[00:20:00]Uh it's a weapon that will not die soon.

[00:20:02]So, the sooner we find a response to it, the better.

[00:20:05]Uh and I expect policy institutions and traditional institutions to be occupied with these issues uh significantly in the foreseeable future. Not withstanding the outcome of the nine judgments, Sabarimala reference that's currently underway.

[00:20:20]And uh I think we we should stop responding. We need to create some proactive uh frameworks and and and let's say literature. I I I shudder to use the word narrative because although that seems to be the battle of narratives, I'm just wary of the word because it has a propagandist undertone to it. So, I'm just speaking of production of scholarship and literature, not narratives.

[00:20:44]And uh of course, uh the other aspect is that there are quite a few unseen forces whose presence we don't wish to spell out or whose animus towards Bharatiya society we still don't wish to spell out for reasons of geopolitics and for reasons of pragmatism.

[00:21:04]But, we also need to look at history from a geopolitical perspective.

[00:21:10]And I don't think real politics should be studied in a standalone fashion. It is a spin-off of history.

[00:21:17]So, as part of your larger let's say vision, international relations or at least geopolitics needs to figure.

[00:21:25]Uh and as I mentioned the the previous subjects, I think it's also important for you to consider the language wars or region-related wars.

[00:21:33]Bharat is is seen as a crucible to to stir up these kind of sentiments. So, these are the areas that I would certainly look at.

[00:21:42]I can assure you that inevitably, one way or another, these issues will land up in the court of courts.

[00:21:51]So, there is practically no subject or issue in the public sphere which cannot be rolled into a legal action anymore.

[00:21:59]If anything, Sabarimala is proof of that. Nobody would have ever expected an Indian constitutional court to intervene with Holi, with Dahi Handi, with kite flying, with Jallikattu, with what is this Sabarimala and God knows what else.

[00:22:15]So, these are the areas. And if and when I have any further suggestions, I'll certainly share. But, these are my star-marked areas, highlights.

[00:22:26]>> Thank you, Sai. I hope I hope you you're able to hear me.

[00:22:30]>> Yes, please. I am.

[00:22:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. Hello. Good evening. This is Vikram here.

[00:22:34]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:35]>> Thank you so much for joining despite you know, I know you have a very grueling schedule today.

[00:22:41]Uh and you for your excellent points despite having to speak to yourself on the screen.

[00:22:47]Uh I have two questions. One was I mean, as as a public intellectual, in addition to being an accomplished lawyer, uh you're you're closely watching uh the growth of the you know, this parallel movement or the whatever you could talk of it as the intellectual and so on since the last decade or so and whether one likes it or not it does get influenced by the politics of the time that changing regimes and so on.

[00:23:16]The same thing could not have perhaps been possible 15 or 20 years before and we all acknowledge how you know scholars such as Sitaram ji or Dharampal ji, Meenakshi Jain, Conrad Elst, all of them suffered against the system. But you know with with some amount of future gazing and as you know everything that goes up also goes down.

[00:23:42]Somewhere when the tide changes politically, do you see this movement also which is now largely and thankfully as you rightly said outside the clutches of state control as much as we bemoan it all the time. It is a it's a blessing in disguise.

[00:24:00]The the opponent is not going to be so pragmatic enough to let a thousand flowers bloom.

[00:24:07]The state is then going to come with an iron fist and crush whatever has been achieved so far. So someone who's also looking at this, do you foresee this problem in the future? That is my first question. The second question is you know we are situating this entire symposium, this conversation from this place Somnath which luckily did not have contestations in courts of law and despite the rancor of Nehru and other things it still had a very easy path to its reestablishment.

[00:24:42]You have also been an advocate of wanting to reclaim all the you know destroyed temple.

[00:24:49]And that is more of a historical question than a legal question because the lawyer needs to be then given thousand pages of you know proof and evidence if it is a proper property dispute that is going to court.

[00:25:04]So how do you see that planning out or is it going to be the likes of Vishnu Jain and you and others just going from court to court filing cases against each and every how many of them we don't even know the number from 1800 of Sitaramji to 40,000 1 lakh God knows what. So how do you deal with issues?

[00:25:27]>> Thank you.

[00:25:28]>> Thank you. I think only a distilled deep incisive mind could have thought of these questions. So thank you Vikram for these questions.

[00:25:36]Uh first let me say this clearly just so that there is no confusion whatsoever because sometimes I think uh the nuance is lost in the hope of getting sound bites and that's what happens on social media. So for the benefit of this enlightened audience, let me make this point very clear.

[00:25:59]No one who is a student of Bharatiya history especially of the last 1500 years can discount the importance, essentiality and integrality of power.

[00:26:11]Okay?

[00:26:12]Power is something that makes everything possible because at the end of the day it is the sword of the Kshatriya which allows Dharma to flourish.

[00:26:22]So to dismiss or discount the uh let's say the uh the the the the necessity of power is to discount the necessity of Kshatra.

[00:26:32]But the point I think which people usually forget is Kshatra emanates from the concept of Dharma.

[00:26:40]Therefore, the presence of state to enable what we do is important because even if the state does not take up let's say active initiatives on its own, the best part of the last 12 years is that there have been no active barriers as much.

[00:26:57]If anything, people are able to speak up clearly and openly.

[00:27:02]Of course, contrary to popular perception, at least as some of people would like people to believe, I have been speaking of this issue at least from my engineering days. I have I have gotten into fistfights, physical fights on campuses.

[00:27:16]When Centre Right India was the portal which existed in a different avatar today, I wrote under the pseudonym and I openly started writing under my name even in 2011, much before the current dispensation came to power.

[00:27:30]So, what I'm trying to say is the presence of a power, or let's say of an establishment that is not antithetical to your point of view, obviously has a huge role to play.

[00:27:45]But it also means if the state decides to take an active interest in dictating the course of fashioning history in terms of historiography, it is bound to be colored by some considerations, some compromises, some concessions, and some monkey balancing, all of which do grave injustice to truth.

[00:28:06]So, I would want the state to create atmospherics, or at least not create obstacles, and allow us to flourish. Now, to answer the question of what happens when uh let's say an inimical, let's say government comes to power.

[00:28:25]Here's how I would see it.

[00:28:28]I would still want the ecosystem to be decentralized because we have seen the power of decentralization in Iran's response to Israel and America in action on the ground.

[00:28:42]When people are asked to fire, there's a reason why we have never been captured as a whole ever as a country despite these waves of invasion because there is constantly been response across the country through different places. That is centrality or centralization in thought and decentralization in action because there are multiple free radical agents trying to take a pot shot at the enemy at the adversary.

[00:29:08]So that the enemy never gets to sleep in peace and he's dragged into a 27-year war the way Aurangzeb did once.

[00:29:17]Second, the importance of creating a legal framework or a let's say a steel barricade of lawyers around and let's say academics like you, scholars like you is super important.

[00:29:34]It's super important. Even if this comes as a self-serving suggestion, so be it.

[00:29:37]There's a reason why I chose this profession.

[00:29:40]Which is to stand and and to stand guard and make sure that we are at least the second line of defense of the first line of defense before somebody goes past us.

[00:29:50]You should People should shudder to touch you because they should realize that there is an army of lawyers with supremely, let's say, talented bunch of youngsters with deep knowledge, with voracious reading and a commitment to fight.

[00:30:06]And that's the one thing that the left has done brilliantly. Every activist has the support of a competent lawyer, not just a passionate lawyer, but a competent lawyer.

[00:30:17]Who's not activisty, but who knows how the system works, how the institution works, and who knows how to let's say present his point of view in a manner that the forum can accept it.

[00:30:27]Then you also need a host of people who are not to your levels of, let's say, rigor or scholarship, but who know how to reach out to the general public through general writing, through lay writing, which is an art in itself.

[00:30:41]Because creation of opinion and rousing of people's opinion is important.

[00:30:47]And which is why I believe that nobody should operate under the assumption that we can do the job alone. No ecosystem can do it. We need the politicians, we need the lawyers, we need these three factors, we need the people who who are journalists in the media who can fashion our point of view and disseminate public. And we also need the core knowledge group who are actually into be direction like people like you. But in fact, according to me the core of people or the people at the absolute epicenter are our gurus, our sampradayas. That's where everything comes from.

[00:31:16]So, that's how I see how this could pan out because I've always said in a way it's been a blessing in disguise that we have all had to do our bit on our own.

[00:31:26]And we have done this living in states and regions and at at points of time when when it's not as if a pro-Hindutva dispensation was was at the helm.

[00:31:36]And I always prepare for it because democracy can be a very fickle game. It can do anything overnight. We've just seen proof of that a few days ago on 4th of May.

[00:31:46]So, preparing for that is absolutely crucial. Therefore, there needs to be multiple fall back safety mechanisms, plan B, plan C, plan D because it there should never be a break or a cessation or interruption in the work. It needs to continue no matter what.

[00:32:01]In this regard, we have a lot to learn from Bharatiya Sampradayic systems because despite waves of invasion, they managed to keep traditions alive. So, why is it that we're not looking at those institutions and those mechanisms for transmission of knowledge and preservation of these structures? We need to look at that.

[00:32:17]The concept of Sampradaya indicates two things. One is that there's a Guru-Shishya Parampara and therefore there's a transmission line and there's adherence to Dharma both.

[00:32:28]So, how do we create an Indic knowledge system Sampradaya or a historiography Sampradaya is a question that we need to ask ourselves. You're better at it. I'm just posing the question. according to me, the solution lies there.

[00:32:39]What was your second question, Vikram?

[00:32:40]Yes, okay, declamation. Okay. On the question of declamation, some things can be addressed by power just as as I said, uh taking away the need to approach the court for everything. That's possible, but when the when power chooses not to do so for reasons best known to it, our independent existence and our independent voices act as, let's say, points of pressure pressure points to continue to push the envelope and constantly create the chatter, the the noise, the ruckus, the chorus.

[00:33:16]And here, I do believe that the legal fraternity which believes in our worldview must tie up with institutions such as yours to to create a repository of literature and not just weaponizable and actual literature in courts, but on a regular basis, this needs to translate to publication of scholarship in mainstream portals, so that that's that envelope is constantly pushed.

[00:33:42]What the left banks on is that it is relentless in pushing its idea under every circumstance and every situation through every platform possible.

[00:33:53]And they have replacements for everyone.

[00:33:57]And I don't think we have reached the stage where there are replacements for a Vikram Sampath or a Sandeep Sanyal or anybody for that matter.

[00:34:04]Therefore, we need to start looking at churning out a Raktabija Rakshasa from a dharmic perspective in favor of dharma.

[00:34:15]I am I repeat, power is important, but you should prepare for the day when you don't have power, and when the diffusion of this point of view is so much in the society that people in power must find it extremely difficult to control this voice. I want that once more.

[00:34:31]We haven't that stage yet.

[00:34:34]And one of the things that initiatives like yours makes it clear is that you can't outsource everything to the state, not because you can't trust the state, but also because the state is a creature of It is a It's a fickle creature. It keeps changing.

[00:34:50]So, I hope that answers the questions.

[00:34:56]>> Hello. I am Am I audible, sir?

[00:34:58]>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:35:00]>> Hello, I'm Pushkar. So, I want to ask you like we always hear like about the cases in Supreme Court and all about the temple and like the reclamation part, but I want to ask like I'm not a student of law and constitution. Is there enough provision in constitutional space that the temple can be reclaimed by the constitutional or legal method by any means like the sites which were desecrated and destroyed?

[00:35:24]>> So, actually, if the Places of Worship Act had not been around, the standard remedy is to file a suit the way people file a suit for Ram Janmabhoomi. It was not a special legislation that was created for the reclamation of Ayodhya.

[00:35:37]It was through a standard civil suit in a district court, Faizabad District Court, which was then transferred to the Allahabad High Court.

[00:35:44]So, the constitutional remedy is all the legal remedies available to the devotees in any form, in any manner.

[00:35:53]There is no specific constitutional remedy because there is no because it's a it's an otherwise secular constitution in several ways. It's actually a mixed bag in that sense.

[00:36:03]But, all remedies available to civil litigants or even criminal litigants for that matter because the very first criminal complaint was filed in 1858 in the context of Ram Janmabhoomi.

[00:36:13]Today, what has happened is despite those constitutionally sanctioned remedies available, you have a legislation that says, "I'm taking away these remedies only in this context." That is the problem with the Places of Worship Act.

[00:36:27]That I could have fought for encroachment of my private property by my neighbor or anybody else, but I don't have the right to fight for reclamation of my religious property, the deity the abode of my deity, the kshetras, whatsoever. That is the unconstitutionality and the problem, the civilizational issue with the Places of Worship Act.

[00:36:47]You don't need any esoteric solutions or constitutional amendments for this.

[00:36:51]At the very least, repeal this legislation, allow us to prove our case and we'll do it. If the If the state does not want to go through the the rigmarole of passing a legislation that facilitates reclamation without litigation and appoints a truth and reconciliation commission, then at least allow us to do this.

[00:37:08]The problem is the state does not want to do it.

[00:37:10]Plus, there is a state-imposed fetter such as the Places of Worship Act, which takes away whatever little remedy was available to us. That's the problem with the entire situation.

[00:37:27]>> Namaste, sir.

[00:37:28]>> Namaste.

[00:37:56]>> So, that transcends the boundaries of historicity.

[00:38:02]In the strict but that would hold something chronic sense of the past may not fit well.

[00:38:07]But the whole history may not fit well.

[00:38:10]So, if we are looking at this in that sense, then the Indians paid up until now, especially if we focus on the judiciary, then we focus on this.

[00:38:16]How does the question go this way?

[00:38:19]Because not scientifically quote unquote history is Or rational sense may to bilkul be nehi he.

[00:38:27]To usko kaise dekhta he?

[00:38:30]To ye jo abhi nine judge ka jo hearing chal raha he Supreme Court ke samne, Sarvoch Nyayalaya ke samne isi mudde pe he ki uh secular rationality and spirituality ka koi talmel nehi he.

[00:38:44]Aur ek ko aap dusre ke mapdand se map nehi sakte he ya tol nehi sakte he. Yehi sawal ya yehi prashn khada ho chuka he.

[00:38:51]And fortunately ab tak jo samajh me aa raha he ye jo mudda 54 me ya fir 56 me isko uthana chahiye tha. Finally they are raising it after 60-70 years and I can confidently tell you isse behtar cheez nehi ho sakta he. Kyonki jo sawal aapne kiya he ki aap secular history ko kaise ek aastha ke mudde pe ya us issue pe kaise aap usko enforce kar sakte he. Ye sawal yehi central sawal he.

[00:39:21]Which is why Ram Janmabhoomi as a judgment does two things. Wo evidence of destruction or existence of the temple ke liye secular history ki baat karta he aur secular evidence ki baat karta he.

[00:39:35]Lekin another component is to say bhai yaha pe aastha bhi to he.

[00:39:40]Aur aastha ke liye hum will only go by the belief of the so agar maine ye prove kar diya ki mandir jo he ye Shri Ram ke liye tha aur hamara ye manna he ki Shri Ram yaha pe paida hue the ya unka janm yaha pe hua tha.

[00:39:56]To court sirf ye pooch sakti he at least ye to prove kijiye ki yaha pe mandir tha.

[00:40:02]Lekin court humse ye nehi pooch sakti he ab ye prove kijiye ki Shri Ram yehi pe paida hue the.

[00:40:07]Kyonki wo aastha ki baat he.

[00:40:09]To Ram Janmabhoomi pehle mudde pe saboot ke basis pe ya aadhar ke basis pe ek conclusion pe aata he ki waha pe mandir he.

[00:40:19]Aur uske baad ye >> That is one of the good things about the Ram Janmabhoomi judgment.

[00:40:29]Which answers the question partly that matters of faith cannot be tested.

[00:40:34]Matters of history can be tested.

[00:40:37]And temple reclamation is combination of both matter of faith and history.

[00:40:43]Existence of temple is a matter of history. The existence of a deity within that is a matter of faith.

[00:40:52]So, nobody is questioning.

[00:41:07]And Sonia Gandhi had asked the same question. In fact, affidavits were filed to be filed.

[00:41:13]Shri Parasaran senior elder son made up his position to resign when he was being asked to do so.

[00:41:21]He said that there is no such thing as Ram Setu. It's a natural formation.

[00:41:29]That is the legacy of the family.

[00:41:31]He decided to give up his position as the ASG because he was being asked to file an affidavit that was contrary to his faith.

[00:41:39]Because ultimately his father was fighting for Shri Ram.

[00:41:45]Fortunately, politically as well as judicially, there is a perceptible shift on these subjects, which is a welcome change.

[00:41:55]Trust me, it is such a welcome change.

[00:41:57]It's possible for us to make a point of view to a receptive audience.

[00:42:02]When I have to finally make an argument which is being received.

[00:42:10]Next.

[00:42:17]>> Hello sir, my name is Rasika.

[00:42:19]>> Yes.

[00:42:20]>> So, before you Dr. Ranganathan in his talk mentioned the Waqf Board and the Waqf Act and he mentioned how the Act weaponizes the board. So, do you see that there is a legal way in the future that this Act can not only be amended, which it has been, but can be abrogated or can be amended in a way that will be beneficial for us?

[00:42:44]>> See, the point is the state has the power to roll back a legislation just as it is rolled back the farm laws.

[00:42:56]So, Waqf Act legislation is going to be rolled back. Nobody can go to the court and say that to roll back the Waqf Act is an unconstitutional act and therefore that act should be challenged. How is that even possible?

[00:43:11]The state always has the power to roll it back.

[00:43:15]It's unfortunate that we're trying to look for band-aid fixes as opposed to rolling back the entire legislation.

[00:43:27]Then we'll ask First question that will be asked is, why does this I mean why how does one justify the existence of this legislation exclusively in favor of one community? What happens to rights of other communities? Especially when this legislation facilitates the encroachment of rights and property of one community by another?

[00:43:46]Because the Waqf Act is not an internal legislation, which means And when such a thing is happening why would I want to sit and amend it?

[00:44:04]I'd say hit reset.

[00:44:07]Hit reset. Let's go back to factory setting and see what is the nature of this. Why do we need this?

[00:44:12]Because the existence of endowment legislations or even trust act who already had If you truly want to come out with a legislation that governs endowments, come out with a central legislation or a uniform legislation taking into account the practices of Hindus, Muslims, Christians. You can still do it. But at least we will know how to we'll actually see whether it's equally applicable to everyone.

[00:44:36]And does it does it create justice or injustice for everyone equally?

[00:44:43]Waqf Act is a textbook instance of legislative exceptionalism, which is a reflection of minority exceptionalism, which is Indian state's policy since its inception.

[00:44:58]And the presence of the Places of Worship Act is a textbook case of secular discrimination of the Indian state.

[00:45:09]Because on the one hand one gets to encroach and on the other hand I don't get to reclaim what is mine.

[00:45:15]And as Anand rightly puts it, we're burning from both sides.

[00:45:19]One is an example of appeasement and the other is an example of discrimination, period.

[00:45:25]Next.

[00:45:34]>> Thank you so much.

[00:45:38]Yeah, thank you so very much for giving us your time and for the very nuanced answers. While your presence is missed here in person, I think you assuage that to a large extent by very kindly consenting to be with us online and giving us so much of your time so generously. Uh on behalf of rather G and the entire audience here, we'd like to thank you for your time today.

[00:46:03]>> Thank you. Har Har Mahadev. Jai Shri Ram.

[00:46:06]>> Jai Shri Ram.

[00:46:11]>> I now invite Shri Raghav Krishna Ji for these concluding remarks.

[00:46:15]>> It's a long day. Shakespeare I think remarked once, how do you put another batch of white on what is perfect as snow?

[00:46:22]And so I don't think we should follow too much after Sadhguru's tremendous presentation. But a quick reflection, I don't want to hold you guys back.

[00:46:30]Identity, stability, and prosperity.

[00:46:32]These are the eternal concerns, whether you are an individual or a nation or a civilization.

[00:46:36]All of our contestations, all of our aspirations, all of our anxieties are around these things. Now there are a couple of narratives that uh the world gives you. The contemporary world tells you that you can become prosperous and then acquire your identity. Right?

[00:46:50]That's the way you look at an economic uh theory today.

[00:46:53]But uh the moment that we are in and the place that we are in tells you that identity is probably far more primal.

[00:47:00]And it is the coherence of identity that creates the stability. And it is stability that creates the ability for people to cohere, to actually exercise their collective enterprise, and generate prosperity. So I think what we're doing here now today is a reflection of our collective aspiration to become stable and to cohere.

[00:47:18]And to do that uh I know that it's been Vikram Ji's vision. And uh and I had a couple of points around how we need to build systems, but I think the job was done by those people who answered. We need to look at this right from a school system to an economic system to an intellectual system to a legal system.

[00:47:35]What we call civilization. Ultimately, civilization is when you answer three questions. Right?

[00:47:40]What is worth learning for human and planetary fulfillment? How do humans learn?

[00:47:45]And how do we transmit our learning so that intergenerationally there is a there is a coherence between your parents, yourself, and your children.

[00:47:53]Right?

[00:47:54]So we need to answer these questions and we are a civilization because our ancestors have asked answered this question.

[00:48:00]So, what we want to do here is not leave this as an event. We want to make sure that this is I was just discussing with Vikramji but while you know, we would have wished that there is a larger participation, there was a crowd and there was some optics around it. But I think the real value of this intimacy, the fact that a few really committed scholars have come together, have listened to each other, have actually developed the ability to perhaps also deal with difference. All of these are critical reflexes and temperaments that we need to develop for any kind of substantial work that needs to happen. Now, both Vikramji and I are very, very keenly aware that uh the burden cannot be yours. Our job is to try and create the enabling environment.

[00:48:38]What we do together, what we do individually in our institutions is to try and make sure that the cruel choice that we've given your generation which is that you can either work for Dharma or you can have Artha, that you can either have a good life or you can work for Dharma. We want to make sure that that cruel choice is not there anymore.

[00:48:56]Right? So, that is our job. What we want you to do is focus on learning. While there is a lot of reflection that we've had on the you know, on the cruelty, on the barbarianism, all of those are true, but it is also true of what happens when people are motivated. Right? Whether it is religious motivation, whether it is Adharmic motivation or Dharmic motivation, it has to be met with that kind of resilience. And resilience is a function of psychological integrity.

[00:49:22]And we can create the safety, but the integrity of that has to come from an effort that is very, very deep and enduring. So, I want to actually thank all of you for taking that first few steps. I've got to learn a lot being here today. I told you this in the morning itself that the heroes of today are you. All of you who've taken the first step to actually come out and speak. It's not easy. The spaces that you inhabit, the kind of uh you know, peer pressures that you would have, I understand and both of us clearly understand that this is not easy. We want to create those safety spaces. We want to create the network and we want to make sure that your work endures. I'm thankful to Vikram Ji for conceptualizing this. Thank you for making Brihatta part of this. Thank you to the trust that enabled, you know, for all of these things to come together.

[00:50:04]But most of all, thank you to the all the scholars. Thank you for your effort and thank you for your pursuit of knowledge. Thank you.