The UK Tonight with Sarah-Jane Mee | Tuesday 26 May 2026

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:07]The emergency services and life-saving charities have issued urgent calls for people to stay safe in the water after four teenagers died with another missing in a series of accidents during this heatwave. And in Cornwall, a six-year-old man died after trying to help two family members who got into difficulty in the sea at Padto. The renewed call for people to stay safe comes as the UK experienced its hottest Mayday on record with temperatures reaching 35.1° C in southwest London.

[00:00:38]Sky Sia Chowry has this report.

[00:00:42]Britain's record-breaking heatwave has been deadly. 15year-old Declan Sawyer among those who died. He drowned in a lake in Lincoln.

[00:00:53]Three other teenagers also died after going swimming elsewhere, including a 13-year-old teenager who died in Lead Beater Dam in West Yorkshire.

[00:01:03]And across the Irish Sea, authorities confirmed the death of a teenager in the sea in County Dublin. An Irish website named her as Abby Carmodi Peppa.

[00:01:13]The heat doesn't come without warning.

[00:01:16]There could be all sorts going on beneath the water, whether it's currents, um rocks, fallen trees that you could get snagged on. Um there are there are all sorts of things that can happen. And so the safest thing always is to swim at a lifeguarded venue. Um if you're at the beach, then swim between the flags of the lifeguarded area on the beach. Um swim in a swimming pool or there are a number of um open water venues now that do have lifeguard provision there.

[00:01:40]It comes as today was recorded as officially the hottest ever day in the month of May here. It is also the earliest that the UK has reached 35°.

[00:01:51]>> Very hot. So we had to go to the water garden. But even the water garden was so so we had to go in the water >> drinking >> drinking really >> ice creams >> as much shade as possible.

[00:02:04]>> Yeah.

[00:02:04]>> Parasol.

[00:02:06]>> Sonat >> all the good stuff.

[00:02:08]>> No, it's even hotter here. If outside is 34, here might be 38. I mean, it's a bit suffering. You know, all the all the fridges and freezers working, so they blow hot air.

[00:02:19]>> As temperatures rise, and more frequently, people across the country are resorting to whatever measures they can to stay cool. In South London, we visit a man who's long complained of his home being too hot. Our thermal imaging camera shows the hottest spots in red and the coolest in blue. Inside in the communal areas, it's pretty hot.

[00:02:45]>> Hi, Chris. Hi. How are you?

[00:02:47]>> Inside, you can see it's blue. Chris has lived here for 30 years.

[00:02:52]>> I can remember late '7s when there was a heat wave and it was just like, you know, no one ever expected it to ever happen again. You know what I mean? And now they're regular. We get them all the time. So yeah, we've got to start looking at things differently.

[00:03:07]>> As we head into another night of dangerous temperatures, authorities are being urged to find ways to deal with this heat and help people adapt to summer temperatures that are fast becoming the norm. Saudia Chowry, Sky News.

[00:03:24]Well, skies. Barnaby Papadopoulos joins me now from Q in southwest London where earlier today the hottest temperature in the UK was recorded. I think the question on everyone's mind this evening, Barney is has this temperature peaked uh this week.

[00:03:42]>> Well, yes, I think that the temperature probably has peaked and it will be coming down over the next couple of days. But what a week it has been. A temperature of 35.1° C recorded here in Q Gardens today. That makes this the hottest May day on record. And of course, the record was surpassed yesterday. Yesterday, we recorded temperature of 34.8° C here. That smashed the previous record for May by a full 2°. And to go back to that temperature, you had to go all the way back to 1944. It was also the hottest bank holiday on record, and this is the fastest time in a year that the UK has seen a temperature of 35°. We've never got to that point so quickly. The previous benchmark was set in 1976, and that was in June. Now, you asked if the temperature has peaked, and I'm afraid it is going to be quite an uncomfortable night for those of us, particularly in London and in the south, where temperatures are going to remain quite high. and the Met Office is urging people to do what they can to stay cool overnight. Looking forward over the next couple of days, temperatures are still going to stay quite high, particularly in London, and in the south. And the amber warning for heat, that's covering most of England, the Midlands, and the South. That's been extended now to Thursday evening. And there is a yellow weather warning for heat in the northwest and the Northeast. That's been extended until Thursday evening, too.

[00:05:11]All of this, of course, has led to some disruption. National Rail has imposed a speed limit on some railways. That caused disruption today, particularly on LNER and Southwest Rail Services. And beneath all of that, there is the serious point that Sardia was talking about in her report. These temperatures are very high. Even if the temperature does dip slightly tomorrow, down perhaps to 30° in London, that is still very high. It's going to be an uncomfortable night. And in the interest of public safety and public health, there are a lot of warnings out that people need to take a lot of water and make sure to keep themselves in the shade.

[00:05:46]>> Barnaby, thank you. Barnaby Papadopoulos for us in Southwest London tonight. Uh well, next we're joined by the regional water safety manager at the RNLI, Guy Addington. And Guy, you were fanning yourself before you joined us on air.

[00:05:58]I'm joining you. It is hot. Our air con is breaking in the studio tonight. And while, you know, this heat is a an inconvenience for many of us, as we've been hearing on the program tonight and throughout the course of the day, it can be deadly. Teenagers and a man in his 60s losing their lives today. Um, talk to us about water safety and what people can do because, you know, inevitably people flock to the coast. They flock to lakes and rivers during this heat wave.

[00:06:25]>> Good evening, Sarah Jane, and thank you for having me on. And yes, it's really hot in here. So, you're right. I was fanning myself. And um it we've we've seen a number of um really significant tragedies over the last couple of days related to the heat and we fully understand that people want to get into the water to cool off. Our thoughts remain with those affected um by some of these tragedies that we've seen. Um but that's kind of uh strengthened our resolve to try to continue to put out safety messaging for people to make good decisions about what they do in on and around the water. And one of the fundamental things is if you're planning a trip to the coast or you're planning a trip to any body of water, make sure you go somewhere supervised, somewhere lifeguarded. If you're heading to the coast, go to a lifeguarded beach and swim between those red and yellow flags.

[00:07:14]The lifeguards put out red and yellow flags, which uh which is the area that they've deemed the most suitable for bathing. So go to a lifeguarded beach.

[00:07:22]And in particular, don't be tempted to go into a body of water that's not designated as specifically suitable for bathing.

[00:07:29]>> What is the some of the most common mistakes, guy, that people make when they're in the water and they get into difficulty?

[00:07:38]>> That's a great question and we often see that many people either underestimate some of the hazards and risks associated with the coastal or any water environment and also overestimate their capability in open water. Open water is very different to that that you might experience in a swimming pool. There's lots of water movement. There can be waves at the surface. There can be objects that can trap you underneath. Um the water is very cold. And we've been talking about the air temperature, the weather at the moment. Um it's really warm, but the water remains cold at the moment at the coast. It's probably 13, 14, maybe 15 degrees if if you're lucky.

[00:08:16]And that's still really cold and can induce what we call cold water shock. a physiological response that humans experience on immersion in cold water.

[00:08:25]So the water remains cold. So all of those factors together make the open water uh quite a dangerous place to be if you're not really used to it. So if you don't have specific um open water capability and competence really don't go out of your depth. Go to a lifeguarded beach and stay between those red and yellow flags or or somewhere supervised.

[00:08:45]>> Yeah. um the RNLI you have your safety campaign float to live because if you do find yourself in trouble in the water you know it's just human instinct isn't it to panic people might think they know what to do but in that moment when they're in trouble they can lose all all sense of what's going on but what should you try and remember what are the simple things that you can remember when you're in that position >> again great question and we've we've mentioned the the the contrast between the air temperature and the cold water.

[00:09:17]And our float to live message, a campaign that we launched only last week, serves as a reminder to try and encourage people that instead of sort of succumbing to that panic instinct and the cold shock response, instead try just try to relax, try and float on the back, push the back of the head and the ears into the water. And that promotes a face up and a chest up position protecting the airway. And that cold shock and panic response will pass in in just a couple of minutes. And that buys you valuable time to just take stock and then plan your next move which might be to shout for help or it might be to swim for safety. So remember if you get into difficulty in water particularly unexpectedly and particularly in cold water remember that fundamental float to live message.

[00:10:00]>> And what if you see someone in trouble in the water? Because one of the tragic stories we've heard today is the man in his 60s. He was trying to help two family members who got into trouble. He clearly went in to help his loved ones and he himself uh reacted badly or got into difficulty. If you see someone in trouble, what should you do?

[00:10:23]>> Again, it's a tragic set of circumstances and we're still waiting for some detail to emerge and thoughts really do remain with those affected.

[00:10:31]But our message is that really unless you have up-to-date, specific and specialist skills in life saving, our advice is not to go into the water yourself. If you're at a lifeguarded beach, shout for the help of the lifeguards. And in any case, if you're in difficulty or you see somebody in difficulty at the coast, call 999 and ask the Coast Guard.

[00:10:55]Uh Guy, really important to have you on the show tonight um to talk about water safety uh in light of the deaths uh during this heat wave. Um hopefully, you know, somebody watching tonight will take some of this advice on board and it it might just save their life because as we've said, this heat wave is set to continue. That's Guy Addington, their regional water safety manager at the RNLI.

[00:11:19]Uh let's now speak to Sky meteorologist Joanna Robinson. Um Joe, we were just reflecting on just how hot it is.

[00:11:27]Another record breaker today. Um and it's set to continue. What's happening to the weather system at the moment?

[00:11:33]When when will it break?

[00:11:37]That's exactly right. We've had seen those temperatures rising, that heat dome. We've had high pressure in charge and we've seen those temperatures rising over the last few days, peaking at 35.1° C today. So that is a new record for May. And like we just heard earlier, like the last time we reached 35 to Celsius, this early, well, not even this early, was back on the 26th of June in 1976. So it really is incredible. It's a whole month earlier that we're reaching 35° C. So we really are seeing incredible temperatures with this heat wave. You can see on this graphic that it's not just, you know, England seeing those temperatures. We're seeing it in Wales, a May record for that as well, reaching 32.9° C in Cardiff. The heat hasn't quite been there in Northern Ireland and Scotland, but the heat is moving that way. But in Ireland, another record there with 30.5° C at Shannon Airport. So, it has been intense heat.

[00:12:38]Um, with a warming climate, we are seeing more heat waves, more intense heat with those heat waves. And they're lasting longer, too. This has been going on building for several days now. And it's not just the daytime high temperatures. It's been so uncomfortable at night. And we're still in spring. And we've had our first spring tropical night last night where temperatures in some places didn't fall below 20° C. And that's when it's classed as a tropical night. If we don't see in the overnight period those temperatures falling below that value, but 20.3° C at Kennley airfield, you know, and several sites stayed above 20° Celsius overnight. So, it really was a warm evening overnight and really uncomfortable for those sleeping. Things are not changing tonight either. We will possibly see another tropical night in some places, perhaps more towards the southwest of the UK. That's where we might see um the temperatures holding up above 20° C overnight. But even so, 16, 17, 18° overnight, that is very warm indeed and uncomfortable.

[00:13:44]Tomorrow, we are going to see the heat transferring a little bit further westward. So, if in eastern parts of England, you are going to notice a big change tomorrow. In some places, temperatures will be more than 10° lower. Um, in some places, you know, even in London, significantly lower temperatures tomorrow. So, for some, you're going to see those temperatures easing, but the heat will transfer to the west. So, even in the southwest of England, we could see 33° C tomorrow.

[00:14:11]So, that really is incredible. Remember, we're still in May. So, that really is intense heat at this time of the year. I mean, temperatures like this, you know, we don't see that often in the summer months or middle of the summer. So, seeing it in May time is really extraordinary. But yes, there are signs of change on the way. The temperatures will pick up in the east as we go into Thursday. Again, not quite reaching the highs we've seen today and maybe yesterday. So, not quite the same temperatures, but still into the low30s again. Um, but then we will see gradually over the next few days those temperatures lowering and then by Sunday temperatures a bit closer to average.

[00:14:50]So, if you're not enjoying the heat, it will be much more comfortable by the end of the weekend. But it's not just the heat that's going on at the moment. Some of you will have experienced some intense thunderstorms this afternoon and they will continue this evening. There is a weather warning in place for parts of England where we could see some torrential rain, frequent lightning, and some large hail as well. So, there are some thunderstorms around. They are quite isolated. Not everyone will see them. For me, here in Oxfordshire, it's certainly um still sunny and very warm.

[00:15:18]Um but yes, there are those that are around this evening as well. And over the next few days there will be a risk of some thunderstorms too. But there is a change on the way. So yes, if you're not liking the heat, there is change by the end of the weekend.

[00:15:30]>> Yeah, Joe, thank you. Uncomfortable for so many of us, but dangerous as we've been hearing for others, including those who are vulnerable. There are Heath Health alerts in place from the UK HSA.

[00:15:42]Areas under amber and yellow alerts, but they're set to expire on Wednesday at 5 in the evening before the temperatures drop to the mid20s later this week. are an indicator uh that the weather is going to become a little more manageable. Still to come here on the UK tonight, we'll hear from the families who today called on the prime minister to ban social media for under 16s face to face.

[00:18:12]What's the best thing about being a Sky presenter?

[00:18:17]Perfect.

[00:18:22]>> Let's bring you some breaking news.

[00:18:23]>> Being a Skyn presenter, >> I began by asking.

[00:18:27]>> Thank you so much.

[00:18:28]>> Trusting us to tell her story. The battle for number 10. Sky News has been given exclusive access.

[00:18:33]>> Let me give you a sneak peek. It was the day those present would never forget.

[00:18:36]Why did you decide to to open up and tell your story?

[00:18:43]Uh, next to a story that we've followed extensively here on the UK tonight since our launch two and a half years ago, the impact of social media on children.

[00:18:52]Well, today bereief families and campaigners took their fight to Downing Street. There they met the prime minister to urge him to fulfill his pledge to restrict access to social media for under 16s. A consultation on what those restrictions could look like closes tonight with Zakir Star telling those gathered at number 10 today, it is important that we act and we will act. I can absolutely assure you of that. ful amongst uh those people you see gathering outside Downing Street where Ellen Room and Lisa Kenneovan uh who you will be familiar with uh Ellen's son Jaws died in 2022 as did Lisa's son Isaac they both believe that their deaths were the result of an online challenge gone wrong ladies really good to see you at the end of what has been a really busy and important day for you um Ellen I'll come to you first finally sit down with the prime minister on the day this consultation shuts to tell him that he has to do what you want to ban social media for under 16s. What was his response?

[00:19:57]>> I wish it was as good as saying yes, we've got a ban coming and something's on its way. It was very much within weeks we will do something, but we don't know exactly what is going to happen or what they're going to do. Um it does appear that they have listened. We planned meticulously um as a group of parents how we were going to do this, what we were going to say, you know, keeping our timing short. We're aware of how many people in the room and we really focused hard on delivering a message. It wasn't talking about our children so much. Yes, it was a snippet, but it was about what we want.

[00:20:27]>> Um Lisa, what do you feel you got from Prime Minister? Because you did in effect get a time frame. He said he will announce something within weeks and he said, you know, we must act, we must do something. Whether the government feel that a ban is the action they should take remains to be seen. But but what did he say to you? Well, firstly, when he came out, he did say that he wants us to be really transparent. What we want to say is he's going to listen. Um, and ultimately, that was the the the whole goal was actually we've got the opportunity to actually tell him what we really want the asks. Um, he did um preempt that. He's already read our statement. So, like Ellen said, we didn't have to go into deep familiar with your story.

[00:21:13]>> Yes. Yes. So we didn't have to relive that um statement again. But just picking up those pointers of like the concerns about you know we've been down this road for such a long time for when the online safety came um in implemented and not much changed and if anything lots of things have got worse. So, we really wanted to really hold his feet to the fire to just say like we really need you to create change because look at all these um photos on on this um this table. These are not facts and figures.

[00:21:45]These are lives that have lost no longer going to be actually involved in economy having children giving us grandchildren.

[00:21:53]We've lost children. We can't afford to have any more parents losing children.

[00:21:56]our group has got so so big just because the can's been kicked down the road for a long long time >> and what you don't want is any more members because >> absolutely not for the families we saw outside down the street including yourself as you said many times Ellen it is too late for you you are doing this for other families um >> you want to raise the age limit to 16 for social media that is clear also today you wanted to talk about ensuring all schools fully implement phone free policies because it's quite peace meal at the moment isn't it it's subject to different school requirements, you know, requests of the parents. There's not a uniform policy. And I was just looking today, the first minister of Wales saying that um Wales won't ban mobile phones in schools.

[00:22:39]>> Won't ban >> come out and said that today. I was reading that today. Why?

[00:22:44]>> Again, for all the reasons we argued, it's sort of the horse has bolted. In England, the UK government intends to pass a law so that schools must ensure schools are free of smartphones during the day, but Wales will not um ban >> mobile phones.

[00:23:00]>> Yeah, >> he did say action needs to be taken on under 16's use of social media. But you see what I mean though, it's peace meal.

[00:23:06]Nobody can agree on what is the right course of action. Um you also asked for an immediate review of Ofcom. there's a vital importance that this is led by someone trusted >> by bereieve parents and the introduction of the e safety commissioner perhaps you could >> um sort of tell us more about that because we've been talking about a maternity commissioner maternity care in the UK heavily on this show an e-commissioner is an interesting idea >> I think as parents I mean you have got a whole database particularly I mean a lot of us have but you in particular of harmful material that we found on social media and when we report it to social media either they don't bother responding or they come back and said no violation when it clearly is a violation. It's harmful polic material and Ofcom won't take individual complaints from parents or any of us as bereaveve parents. We get fed this from all sorts of people all over the UK and we can't feed it in. And that's fundamentally wrong. There is nowhere to go with this and parents are crying out for help.

[00:23:59]>> Yeah. They just left they're left to their own devices and lost, you know, nowhere else to go. And it's it's wrong, you know, that that needs to change about having, you know, the the communication between a parent and the concern as an individual. You can't be a colome. You can't be a group. You know that that's not the power. You know, parents are standing alone with problems with their children.

[00:24:24]>> It's interesting, isn't it? Because again, the UK government has said a ban may not be the answer because children will go on social media anyway or it will drive them to darker corners of the internet. We've discussed the arguments many times often with both of you on this show and you know even the Welsh first minister has said that you know instead of banning schools he wants to banning phones he wants to empower schools to make that decision. But your argument is that a ban sets the benchmark, doesn't it? In terms of you're backed up by the law. This is proven to be harmful for children, not all children, to the extremes that your families have suffered, but it has proven harms and a change in the law to reflect that would actually empower schools, empower parents. This whole out of policy with the sorry out of sight um policy with mobile phones where they're in their bags and that's acceptable is not working. I actually text a friend of Jules's recently and I assume she would text me back at the end of the school.

[00:25:25]It's the same school that Jules was at.

[00:25:26]They've had three deaths at that school and I have raised the headmaster several times that you need to up the ante with the this out of sight policy for phones.

[00:25:34]And she said, "Let me go to the toilets and I'll text you back." And I thought, "No, no, no. I just thought you'd text me after school." And I I was so shocked that still they're going to the toilets to text me back. I just didn't expect that.

[00:25:45]>> Yeah, it's it's still a distraction. If it's in their pocket, they know that if there's a little vibration or they know it's in their bag, the temptation's there. And you've lost that interest in a child actually being focused on actually being educated. You know, the teachers have got this huge huge battle and they need to be guided. It's not the lottery of what what schools are doing what. And when Kia Star said it's unnecessary and it's up to the individual schools, that that's just not acceptable.

[00:26:12]>> A ban on social media for under 16s has always been caveed with, you know, until social media companies can make it safer for under 16s to be on their platforms.

[00:26:25]But Ellen, as we discussed the court case from bereief parents in the US that took all the social media platforms um to court, internal emails and documents actually lifted the lid on probably what a lot of people suspected or knew already is that they deliberately target under 16s sometimes, you know, even younger. It's built for addiction.

[00:26:48]>> It's a core audience.

[00:26:49]>> Exactly. So in that light, you know, when we talk about a multi- pronged approach to tackling this. The government you feel needs to be tougher on social media companies to get them to pull their socks up.

[00:27:03]>> Yeah, absolutely. We we we have the ability and we have that opportunity to do that. Now, we've seen across um the Europe and many other countries in in uh in the world actually implementing the the restrictions and that is a learning curve. Nothing's going to be hugely robust. So we are learning from that and I just think that where Australia are actually um have that restriction through a certain amount of apps or um platforms I think it's around 10 >> there is argument in Australia that it's not working though from it >> but but there's around about 40% that is working >> so it's something is better than not doing anything at all we they could have saved quite a lot of um deaths from from children so I just think >> we can do a better version of that. And for us going through uh platforms, um bots, AI, gaming platforms, I think we can really lead the way. I think we just need the power and the the the just strength behind the government >> in Australia. They also name 10 platforms. I think we should do it differently and Lord Nash has got an amendment going through or was and but his it's massive in the sense of we're looking at the features, not necessarily the platform names. So we're looking at the data that's algorithmically fed to children. We're looking at strangers being able to contact children and it's so relevant. If these platforms have those features, that's what we need to ban the features of these products. And if you put it back in the technology companies, just like if any other product was recalled, it's their responsibility. They fix it. But until then, we take it away until they fix it.

[00:28:37]And then when it's safe, we give it back. And as if your testimony and evidence wasn't powerful enough, you went in there today armed with the National Crime Agency and the National Police Chiefs Council who said that plainly the online environment is not safe for children under 16. But also the Academy of Medical RO colleges which represents 23 royal medical colleges and faculties across the UK and Ireland has said that it ranks alongside smoking >> as a danger to children. which stopped me in my tracks today because, you know, that puts it plainly for anyone that there can be no doubt as to how harmful this um can be for children under the age of 16. Well, listen, thank you both for coming in. You've had an incredibly busy day and I'm sure you're not done yet, but we really appreciate you coming in to talk to us about your meeting with the prime minister and as you said, he set a deadline of weeks and I know you'll follow up with him.

[00:29:23]>> We're going to hold him to that.

[00:29:24]>> I know I know you will do. So, I will be talking to you in a number of weeks.

[00:29:28]Thank you both.

[00:29:28]>> Thank you.

[00:29:28]>> Thank you.

[00:29:29]>> Right. Still has come here on the UK tonight.

[00:29:32]The case of three teenagers spared jail over the rape of two girls. There was a huge public outcry about this. It is set to be reviewed by the court of appeal.

[00:29:41]We'll bring you the details.

[00:29:49]I urge you not to look away. If Hamas hands the hostages over, they will end this conflict. The world has been watching. Good to see you again. How are you?

[00:29:57]>> Did she say how he was?

[00:29:59]>> The conditions are awful. The jets were ordered to come back. Historic day here today. How will you respond if India does launch air strikes?

[00:30:09]>> They will be all over.

[00:30:11]>> Uh, I'm just going to put some body armor on. I'm Gake.

[00:30:18]>> The best thing about being a Sky News journalist.

[00:30:25]>> Hi, darling.

[00:30:29]Beth Wrigley, Sky News, >> is being a Sky News journalist. You said to people, "I'm not coming back for more." But you have come back for more.

[00:30:38]And well, let's kick off and make a statement. What can our prime minister say to you to not impose Paris?

[00:30:45]>> He's coming out.

[00:30:47]>> What more do you need?

[00:30:50]>> We're trying to see as much as we can.

[00:30:53]>> We're in an area that's just been reclaimed. Mr. Zuma Sky News. People are directly protesting. The whole neighborhood has rallied around her.

[00:31:03]It's been impenetrable to journalists over the last 2 years of war in Sudan.

[00:31:08]>> Been waiting for this for 2 years. It doesn't feel like a big homecoming. It was never going to be pretty. War isn't pretty.

[00:31:18]>> What's the best thing about being a Sky presenter?

[00:31:23]Perfect.

[00:31:28]Let's bring you some breaking news.

[00:31:30]Being a Sky News presenter, >> I began by asking.

[00:31:33]>> Thank you so much.

[00:31:34]>> Trusting us to tell her story. The battle for number 10. Sky News has been given exclusive access. Let me give you a sneak peek. It was the day those present would never forget. Why did you decide to to open up and tell your story?

[00:31:49]>> I urge you not to look away. If Hamas hands the hostages over, they will end this conflict. The world has been watching. Good to see you again. How are you?

[00:31:57]>> Did she say how he was?

[00:31:59]>> The conditions are awful.

[00:32:01]>> The jets were ordered to combat.

[00:32:03]Historic day here today. How will you respond if India does launch air strikes?

[00:32:09]>> They will be allowed to warn.

[00:32:11]>> Uh, I'm just going to put uh some body armor on. I'm gake.

[00:32:20]Three boys who were spared jail over the rape of two girls in Hampshire are to have their sentences reviewed. The teenagers were given youth rehabilitation orders despite filming the attacks on their phones. The judge said he wanted to avoid criminalizing children unnecessarily.

[00:32:36]The attorney general has now asked the court of appeal to examine the cases.

[00:32:40]The prime minister saying it's right that they are reviewed.

[00:32:45]>> I think it's a really distressing case.

[00:32:47]I think it's distressing for everybody uh to see to hear about the courage frankly of the girls to come forward is is humbling. Um but it is distressing. I find it distressing um as a politician.

[00:33:00]I find it distressing as a father. Um and there are questions about the sentence. The attorney general has power to refer a case to the court of appeal if the attorney general thinks that the sentence is too lenient. The attorney general has now exercised that power. So I can announce that that case now will go to the court of appeal and the court of appeal will now review the sentence in that case and that is clearly uh the right outcome.

[00:33:31]>> Our political correspondent Lucy McDade joins us now. So what were the next steps in this be? Lucy, what's the time frame?

[00:33:39]>> Well, it's now in the hands of the court of appeal. It could be months, one to three months. uh might be an average but frankly we don't know but let's go back.

[00:33:48]So this relates as you were saying Sarah Jane to the rape of two girls uh one in November 2024 and one in January last year carried out by two 14year-old boys at the time. There was a third uh a younger boy at the time he was found guilty of aiding and encouraging one of the attacks. The judge in sentencing said that the boys were filming it. They were laughing and encouraging one another. The three of them though walked out of court uh with 10 rape convictions between them, but no custodial sentences. So, they avoided prison time.

[00:34:25]They were given youth rehabilitation orders, which can involve things like community work, uh support, treatment, action plans. Those are what what are put in place. And the judge in sentencing said he wanted to avoid unnecessarily criminalizing these young boys. wanted to encourage their reintegration into society. It's worth pointing out that two of them, one had been diagnosed with ADHD, another mild cognitive impairment. However, as you would expect in a case like this, the public outcry to this decision has been really quite extreme. You heard the words from the prime minister there. The attorney general's office run by Richard Hermer had received a number of complaints under what's called the unduly lenient scheme. It has now been announced that this decision will go to the court of appeal. What's interesting to point out here is the speed at which this decision was made. Make no mistake about it, this decision may not be made as quickly in other cases. I think because of the level of outrage here. I mean, Jess Phillips, who was until just a couple of weeks ago the minister in charge of bringing down violence against women and girls, she has come out saying that those sentences are unduly lenient and it sends a bad message, a bad message to victims when the government says it wants to have violence against women and girls. So, today we had that confirmation from the prime minister that these sentences will go to the court of appeal. Richard Hermer's office said he directed his officials to work urgently to allow him to consider the decision swiftly and it is clear to me from the powerful personal statements from the victims uh and their immense bravery sorry in coming forward and he says the government won't hesitate to take action to ensure all women and girls feel safe. You said there about the timeline. Well, now it's in the hands of the court of appeal. What happens is three of the country's most senior judges will look into that decision. They will listen to arguments on both sides and ultimately, you know, we could see a conclusion where those three boys do end up in prison.

[00:36:33]Lucy, thank you. Lucy McDade there with the latest on that story. Uh well, French rape survivor Jazelle Pelico has also criticized the decision not to jail the teenage boys. She said that she was deeply shocked at the sentencing and went on to criticize a maledominated judiciary. She was speaking to my colleague Kathy Newman.

[00:36:55]>> I understand the suffering those of those women because it's a daily fight.

[00:37:00]What I less understand is the attitude of these young men who get the impression think, well, it's not very serious because they're only 13 or 14 years old. They're responsible for their act. And where are the parents? How have they educated their children? Because after all, I think we have to also to tell them it's a crime what they've done, what they've committed. And I don't think that that's something that's been taken into consideration. But at the same time, the victims themselves will never be able to be repaired.

[00:37:28]They're imprisoned in their bodies their whole lives. They have to appeal. They have to be have justice.

[00:37:34]>> One of the victims has said that the sentence was, and I quote, like a rock in her face. What would you say to her?

[00:37:42]It's much more than that. It's a girl who's totally destroyed because after all, a rape is something that's terrifying. And I imagine because we're talking about a very young woman, how is she going to evolve in her private life?

[00:37:56]It's very complicated. She must be accompanied. She must see psychiatrist.

[00:38:00]She must be supported by her parents. I hope her parents were also able to support her. But justice has got to do its work. And that's something that's very important because otherwise you'll never be able to recover. But the two or three others, I don't know how many of them, they have to be recognized as being culpable.

[00:38:19]>> Well, author and former judge Wendy Joseph joins me now uh to discuss this development.

[00:38:26]I mean, the public outcry to what happened um during this uh sentencing, I know that doesn't have a bearing on due process, but you can see that this was only going to go one way, and that was to the court of appeal.

[00:38:41]>> Yeah. Um I I think one needs to be clear about this. Even if there hadn't been a public outcry the way there clearly has, this was always going to be a case where the prosecution must have taken a very deep breath and thought what? And they do have the right in cases like this to take their case up to the court of appeal and ask for the matter to be reviewed by the court of appeal um on the basis that the sentence is not lenient but unduly lenient. And I think even without the public outcry, I would have been amazed if this case hadn't been appealed.

[00:39:21]>> Um, just listening to Jazelle Pelico's interview there with my coffee uh with my Cali a colleague Kathy Newman, she was talking about a maledominated judiciary. And that is, you know, where where where she went to court in France here in the UK with the idea being that a male centered view of sexual assault and rape and it and its seriousness creeps through. Do you believe that this is what could have happened here? And is that something that needs to be explored further?

[00:39:54]>> Okay. Well, look, Sarah Jane, this is one judge and it'll be for the court of appeal, not for me to say he's he he's got it wrong if he's got it wrong. Um, we have a a much much better balance of male and female judges on the bench now than we did. When I was appointed to the old Bailey in 2012, I was the only woman judge amongst 16 judges there. There was me and 15 men. When I left exactly 10 years later, the bench was half and half, male and female. So, um things are changing. Not all courts are as good as that. I I can assure you. But but but uh things are changing and there are many many male judges who sentence these things day in and day out. Not cases quite like this, but very serious sex cases involving young people. and there is no complaint made of their sentencing. So, um I I don't I don't want to disagree um with someone who has obviously been through the most terrible experience in France and who is expressing her view of what her experience was. But I wouldn't want to extrapolate that and say that's the problem here. I think the problem here is whether this judge has simply um misinterpreted the guidelines that he should have been applying and it'll be for the court of appeal to say whether he has or hasn't.

[00:41:27]>> From what you've told me then you feel that what happened here involving this judge and this case was perhaps an outlier. Um, in England and Wales, rate prosecutions and convictions have reached their highest levels in a decade, though outcomes remain disproportionate to recorded crimes. We have a real problem in this country, don't we? In terms of >> I forg for forgive me, Sarah, Jen, I really don't want to make it sound as if um, offenses against women and girls are outliers.

[00:41:56]>> Not at all. I was not suggesting that. I wasn't there really that there's a real problem here that we do have to deal with. Sorry for interrupting you.

[00:42:05]>> No, no, no, no, no. I I'm glad you made that point. I wasn't trying to infer that at all. But we do have a real problem in this country, don't we? Not just of >> women coming forward when this happens to them. And you know, I'm sure these headlines about this particular case >> will not have encouraged anyone that this has happened to to come forward.

[00:42:24]But we also have a problem with the judiciary system in terms of, you know, even getting to court, let alone securing a conviction. How does that change?

[00:42:37]Um, well, we've got a very long backlog of cases which everyone is trying to deal with. And amongst the backlog of cases, there are a lot of sexual offenses. And one of the reasons for that is that custody cases where the defendants are in custody waiting for trial have to be dealt with by law within a certain limited period of time.

[00:43:03]Whereas where the defendants are on bail, they don't. And so the bail cases get shoved back. And it just so happens that many many cases of rape and sexual assaults, the defendants for one reason or another are on bail. Um we could change the law and say that um cases involving vulnerable victims or victims of um alleged victims of sexual attacks should be dealt within the same time frame as custody cases. There are many things we could do, but whatever we do, we need to do something.

[00:43:41]Wendy Joseph Casey, um, author and former Old Bailey judge. I really appreciate your expertise this evening, um, as we continue, uh, to follow this story. Um, and it could be some months before we get the outcome of that court of appeal decision.