The Dating Patterns Gay Men Can’t Stop Repeating with Michael Pezzullo

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:04]Hi everyone and welcome to Smart Sex, Smart Love where talking about sex goes beyond the taboo and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. Today my guest is Michael Pizulo, LMFT, a licensed marriage and family therapist, gay men's therapist, relationship coach, speaker and creator of Therapy for Gay Men.

[00:00:23]Michael specializes in helping gay men understand the deeper emotional patterns shaping their relationships, attraction, sexuality, confidence, self-worth, trauma, addiction, and intimacy. He's based in West Hollywood, California and works with gay men and LGBTQ+ clients through therapy, coaching, speaking, YouTube, and educational content. His work focuses on a powerful idea that most gay men are not stuck because they lack insight. They're stuck because they have deeper emotional and relational patterns that continue to drive their choices beneath the surface.

[00:00:57]Today we're going to be talking about why gay men repeat the same dating and relationship patterns, why emotionally unavailable men can feel so compelling, and how porn and sexual behavior can become tied to shame or emotional regulation, what gay men often misunderstand about open relationships and monogamy, and how therapy can help men build stronger self-worth, intimacy, and emotional safety. Welcome, Michael.

[00:01:23]>> Thank you for having me.

[00:01:24]>> Yeah, you're welcome. It's We got a lot to talk about.

[00:01:27]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, no, I've been following you for a long time and watching your stuff and it's great uh and that's why I wanted to have you on my podcast, so I'm so glad you're here.

[00:01:34]>> Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah, you're welcome. So, let's just get started then. So, tell us what first led you to specialize in working with gay men and gay male relationships.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah, so you know, for me I think and I I think this is important too when you're a new therapist, people are always like, "What's your modality? What Who do you want to What do you want to do?" And you kind of you kind of feel compelled to like pick something, which I think is kind of crazy. So, um I initially had gone down more of an addiction path, although I was working in a lot of LGBT addiction spaces.

[00:02:05]But as you know, when you open your own practice, then it kind of changes because you can't go work at a facility that has the population there. They will have to come to you. And so, pretty quickly I realized that people were reaching out to me who were majority gay men, like a very high percentage. So, that became the focus of my work by interest, but also just sort of by circumstance.

[00:02:26]>> Does being gay yourself and being in your own relationship, um uh inform the way you work with clients?

[00:02:32]>> Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, no question. I mean, I think you can't separate your identity from how you show up as a therapist, you know. So, um absolutely, and I wouldn't say there's anything so special about that except that I cuz not all gay men are the same, but we obviously do share a common identity and common experiences, and you know, I can't help but bring that into the work. Yeah.

[00:02:52]>> Yes, right. Good. Uh I feel like I do the same. You know, even when I work with straight people, you know, just having a different perspective.

[00:02:59]>> Mhm. Mhm.

[00:02:59]>> Um you want you wanted to talk about the labels queer versus gay. How do you think about those terms and why does that distinction matter to you?

[00:03:08]>> So, you know, I know that that thing that clip from that guy from Sex and the City went viral last week. Uh I don't know that actor's name, but he was one of the kind of tertiary characters.

[00:03:17]Um but he was talking about, you know, yeah, the calling yourself gay or calling yourself queer. And what I found I've I've heard this debate for a a long time, and I don't really, you know, I personally call myself gay, but I don't could care less what other people call themselves.

[00:03:32]Um but what I thought was interesting though is that in the comments and in what he said, they were making it like a um uh generational thing of like, "Oh, he's just older. That's why he doesn't get it. All the millennials and younger like this term." Well, I'm a millennial, and I don't I don't I don't I don't like it.

[00:03:49]And all my friends are kind of my age, and we don't you know, a lot of them feel the same way because um it was still a slur when I was growing up in New York City in Hell's Kitchen in like the gay Mecca. It was still used as a slur. So, um I you know, if people want to rebrand for themselves, again, totally fine. Call yourself whatever you want. But I I I personally don't use it for myself, but I disagree with the idea that it's just a generational gap.

[00:04:14]>> I agree with you because not everybody uses the word, even younger people. I've noticed that in my practice, but for sure I tried so hard. I thought, "Okay, I'm going to go along with this. I'm getting older. Maybe I need to just accept the word queer." But I was in my I was in the '70s and the '80s. I was chased around, called queer, called [ __ ] all the words. And queer just doesn't fit for me at all.

[00:04:34]>> Mhm. Mhm. No, I mean I I was in high school, it would have been 2005 in New York City, and people would still use queer as a slur. So, it wasn't it wasn't that long ago.

[00:04:44]>> Yeah. And I think it's just I think it What you're saying is it's not necessarily generational. It's person to person. How However they feel comfortable.

[00:04:51]>> Totally. And if you love that, awesome.

[00:04:53]Like I'm not trying to tell anyone else how they should refer to their own personhood. That's, you know, But um I think everyone has a has a right to pick their own term. And if they don't like that one, then that should be fine, too.

[00:05:04]>> Yeah. When clients come in my office, I always ask, "How do you self-identify?"

[00:05:08]And I use the word that they use. I might say to them, "Well, can you tell me what that word means to you?" But then I'll use their term.

[00:05:14]>> Mhm. I like that. I should do that.

[00:05:16]>> Have you had anybody come in that's straight that uses that term? They'll they'll call themselves queer.

[00:05:20]>> No.

[00:05:21]No, not now. Although when I worked in a teen treatment center years ago when I was doing my kid hours, and every single everyone there called themselves queer.

[00:05:30]Every single one. And none of them were >> [laughter] >> I think there was like one person. This must have been like there was like 15 kids or so. I think one of them legitimately may have been LGBT or something. But there were these like super straight guys that had zero interest in men. They were like, "Yeah, I think I'm queer." I'm like, you know, I I I don't know if you are, but if you like this term, go for it. Uh yeah.

[00:05:53]>> Yeah, and then when I ask the straight people why they're using the term queer, what they will say to me in my office here, they'll say, "Because straight doesn't fit with me. I'm a little fluid sometimes, and my fluidity makes me want to have some wiggle room around who I'm attracted to and what I might do, but that doesn't make me less straight, but being queer fits my identity more." And I love that.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, hey, like labels are they're not that necessary anyway, so you know, whatever people like that that that's fine. If that makes them feel more safe and open, then go for it.

[00:06:23]>> Yes.

[00:06:25]All right, a big part of your work is helping gay men understand the patterns underneath dating, sex, intimacy, and self-worth. What are the most common patterns you see in your practice?

[00:06:35]>> Wow, there's a there's a lot. I mean, I think um there's a lot of comparing to spare to other guys in the community.

[00:06:41]It's so funny, too, because I live in So, I live in West Hollywood, and people will always talk about like the popular gays and like the this and the that, and I legitimately I'm like, I have no idea who they're talking about. I have no I don't know There's so many gay people in this neighborhood, I don't know all of them. So, you know, when you're in high school, everyone kind of is it's a small enough cohort where you can kind of have a mutual understanding of who's cool and who's not based off of I you know, who knows, but that kind is a kind of a thing. But um I I I couldn't tell you who the cool people are or or why, but I think it speaks to more of a perspective of I think a lot of gay men grew up feeling like an outsider and like they don't fit in, and so there could be this preoccupation with I want to fit in and I want to feel included, but there isn't really like a group to accept you necessarily anymore cuz we're adults.

[00:07:27]And I think that can people get lost in that, and that can drive a lot of behavior that just doesn't lead anywhere so you know, super useful.

[00:07:35]>> Mhm. Do you get clients so that feel like they're um left out or they don't feel like they fit in as a West Hollywood gay.

[00:07:42]>> Yeah, yeah. And I think I think what's interesting too is that the people a lot of people that are preoccupied with fitting in probably do.

[00:07:51]And a lot of people that just don't care, uh I I don't think it really matches always the actual experience. It It seems like a moving target if I'm trying to get certain people to like me, but I don't know who they are.

[00:08:02]I'm assuming they're at a you know, maybe at the Abbey or something. I'm not sure. But, um and I think people guys that are more like really secure in themselves and confident don't really even think about that sort of thing.

[00:08:13]>> Mhm. You're probably right. What about in terms of dating? People, you know, what I have a lot of clients they're dating in different cities or wherever they are are from and they all struggle and they think it would be so much easier if I was living in a gay Mecca like West Hollywood. Is that true?

[00:08:27]>> Uh I so I can't I I don't I honestly I don't know cuz I haven't done it myself.

[00:08:30]I can't speak from personal experience cuz I've only ever lived in New York and LA. Uh so, I think I think that's a fair point. If you live in an an area where there are just very few gay people, then yeah, I think that could definitely, you know, uh make a difference. I do think though that if you live in if you're comparing LA to like another city, but it's smaller it might be easier because there's like not so much, you know, endless options people can just keep looking around. Um I don't know. And I think it also depends too. Some people get very triggered by being on apps and then some people love it. So, it I think it depends on the person.

[00:09:06]>> Mhm. Do people come in saying that they feel uncomfortable in West Hollywood when when they're trying to date your clients?

[00:09:12]>> I I people often just, you know, get frustrated with the whole process of it of, you know, everyone's on apps, there's so many people, it's just like a lot of conversations that are never leading anywhere. Um So, yeah, I think that's a pretty pervasive like complaint in in general, which I think, you know, fair enough. I think there's a lot of reason to meet to have frustration around that.

[00:09:33]>> Mhm.

[00:09:33]Yeah. I I know it's it's people feel that way and I think people think well, because there's more out there, it's going to be easier, but sometimes more makes it harder.

[00:09:42]>> Mhm. It could. Yeah, I think it I I I don't know if like a strong stance on that either way, unless you're living somewhere where there's just barely any gay people.

[00:09:50]>> Yeah, right.

[00:09:52]Um and then you also mentioned that LGBTQ community can sometimes become intolerant of diversity of thought or opinion. Uh tell me what you're seeing there, and can you talk about that?

[00:10:02]>> Yeah, so I think even um even like the when I was seeing people talk about this sort of should we call ourselves gay or queer thing, that um a lot I majority of people who responded to me and and I was talking to uh said a lot of most of them said they called themselves gay, but they're totally cool with either one for other people.

[00:10:23]But there was a lot of I did see a lot of people pushing back about even the suggestion that we don't all have to be the same, you know, like do all gay people have to think the same, feel you know, say have the same labels? Like I I'm all about like individual freedom kind of person. So, um but I do think there can be this like um we all have to be on the same page about everything, and I think sometimes people feel a little threatened if we're not, which I can understand. You feel like you're in a you were cast out of the big group, now you're in a small group, and like you want them to feel like they're super solid for you.

[00:10:53]But I do feel like that it it sometimes it can get into a place where we're not tolerating enough people just being themselves.

[00:11:04]>> Oh, I'm sorry. You were frozen. Okay.

[00:11:06]Yeah, I agree with that. But I also think too that um every this is what my experience has been, I wonder if it's been yours. Gay men in general, LGBT in general, but gay men in particular, each think that they're the expert on gay life, not an expert, the expert. And when I was coming into my own in private practice in the '90s and the 2000s, there was so much um fighting and and not enough accepting that hey, we're all doing this together.

[00:11:33]What can we learn from each other? Do you find that you're able that it's still like that there and or is it different now?

[00:11:40]>> I think my experience has been pretty different only because, you know, I I come from like that I come from New York and I come from an area in New York that's also gay. So, being gay in no way makes you unique or special. Like it's not like a special prize you get to own. And uh So, I never really felt like uh anyone was trying to stake that claim that they are the expert because it it if there was like one gay guy in a sea of 10,000 people, maybe he could do that. But since it was not like that, I personally haven't experienced too much of that. Um But I can imagine maybe, you know, at a certain time it probably was.

[00:12:17]>> Mhm.

[00:12:17]>> Yeah.

[00:12:18]>> Yeah, I'm glad it's that that you haven't experienced that. Maybe it's changed, you know, with the younger therapists. And what about the conversion therapy ban being lifted because you work with gay men, so let's talk about that.

[00:12:30]>> That sent me I was so I was so mad. So, I've worked with a lot of people that have been through conversion therapy and it is horrific what they went through. I mean, it's like truly like psychological torture. And not only that, just you know, we have objective data that shows that conversion therapy A doesn't work and B increases suicide risk. Like it's just objectively proven.

[00:12:51]So, and I I'm so um like open-minded with people that I honestly don't really care if someone is not so gay-friendly or homophobic. Like I just don't really I'm not going to interact with them and I we're not going to be best friends, but like I don't really need to police someone's thoughts.

[00:13:08]But why do we should have a, you know, children should not be subjected to this. I think that's fair. Like that's just where I draw the line, you know? If they want to these conversion therapists want to like, you know, hate gay people and burn pride flags in their backyard, I'm like, do you. I mean, it seems like a complete waste of time, but whatever. But, you know, manipulating children into fake therapy that you know is going to harm them, I just think is like objectively evil, so um yeah, we're not having it.

[00:13:35]>> I don't know. And where's the public outcry on this if when you think about it, there was a huge public outcry for drag queens reading to children, but no public outcry about putting a child in conversion therapy.

[00:13:44]>> I'm totally with you and I was disappointed particularly with um I don't know. A lot of these um LGBT organizations I feel like have lost the plot of just basic They're They're always fighting for things that seem to be so not practical and just not losing track of like our basic rights.

[00:14:02]Um so when this happened, there was some like, you know, this is awful, da da da da da, and then it kind of fizzled away.

[00:14:07]And I thought like, well and now we're back to talking about drag queens or you know, something like It's like It's That's also an issue, but this is definitely more important.

[00:14:14]>> Yeah.

[00:14:15]>> Um I don't know. I don't know why there wasn't a lot of um you know, that I I I think also I took the time to like read through the law as it was before and the case. So and I was familiar with it. I knew we were going to lose based off cuz the the way the law was written was bad. It was too strict. So I could see the the argument they had for overturning it, I did actually think was compelling. But we all know what they're going to do.

[00:14:37]They're then going to go, "Great, let me go do this to children." You know, so I I think it's really wrong and I wish that there was more discussion and pushback about this.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah, me too. I remember in the '80s, so this guy named Joseph Nicolosi, he he started an Oh, right in our ear. Oh my god. And he actually >> Oh, go ahead. What were you going to say?

[00:14:56]>> know, his son is doing it now.

[00:14:57]>> Yes, I was going to say that, but wait, his son says, "Oh, my father was the um the uh a pioneer of male sexual fluidity." And I spent a lot of time uh correcting people in psychotherapy uh circle saying, "Absolutely [ __ ] not.

[00:15:14]He was a homophobe. He was the one that would say there's nothing gay about being homosexual."

[00:15:19]>> And and >> And isn't it funny that his own son seems allegedly pretty gay to me? I mean I've never seen him. I've never seen him. I was watching his content. What I I first stumbled across and I was like it was going to be we're interviewing a conver- conversion therapist. And the guy starts talking and I'm like, "Oh, this must be one of those gay guys who like converted and then is just not acting on it or something cuz he's so he's so effeminate. It's like pain It's just screaming out of him." And then no, he has a he's you know claiming to be I I In my mind, I thought conversion therapy is we're going to take you to you know hunting and teach toughen you up and it's going to be this bro alpha like >> Yeah.

[00:15:55]>> you know, that would make more sense to me. This guy is like gayer than Christmas and he's super manicured and coiffed and has a little bit of all this stuff and he's going to tell you tell your kid not to be gay? I'm like, >> I have never I've only read his stuff.

[00:16:08]I've never seen him in action.

[00:16:10]But the father was kind of like that, too. His father was a little bit like suspicious.

[00:16:15]>> yep. No, the son is worse. And my my theory is that that they're both gay.

[00:16:19]And but can you imagine being the biggest homophobe on Earth and your own son is gay? It's so I'm sure it's all complicated. But they're they're evil people.

[00:16:26]>> Yeah, and there's been a lot of people like that where you're the biggest homophobe but your son, daughter, niece comes out as as gay. And I don't know how they negotiate that. I don't know how they deal with that.

[00:16:37]>> I I don't either and it's like, you know, just don't make it our problem.

[00:16:40]You know, if you if you don't want to be gay, then don't I don't know, don't be.

[00:16:43]Like go do you. I I don't care, but this whole thing of we're we're trying to help kids It's just it's so gross. It's so gross.

[00:16:49]>> Well, if people don't know this that that I'm sure that I know this still goes on, but I'm sure that this isn't the norm, but it used to be more the norm where they would show these kids they would put them in camps and they would show them homo homosexual and heterosexual images. And then they You know this? They would put Yeah, the electric What is that? Electric shock therapy to their genitals to help them not be excited by this.

[00:17:13]>> It's When I started doing some research on this, you get to the point where cuz my my thought about I first of all, I don't even like the idea of calling any kid gay. I think it's weird. I think I and I sometimes I think the LGBT community goes too far with this also where you see these like little kids holding up pride flags and I'm like, we're talking about sex here. Like this is a little off message for me for kids.

[00:17:33]I think when puberty kicks in and sexual feelings start developing, we of course should toss them in like, you know, just basic education and whatnot, but this like label yourself now and you know, I for me I'm not I'm not a huge fan of anything sexualizing children. I think we should just let everyone be who they are. It's all good. Put don't put a label on it. Put a label on it. Who cares? You know, like that's that much that's my approach. But um But anyway, yeah, when you get into the what they were doing to allegedly convert children, so much of it is so explicitly sexual and pornographic and they're doing this with kids.

[00:18:06]>> Oh my god.

[00:18:08]>> Totally. So that I agree with 100%. I'll I'll just say I probably stray a little bit. When I see a kid identifying as gay or or holding up a gay pride um sign, I don't look at that as sexual any more than somebody holding up uh a romantic novel or listening to a fairy tale that's about Sleeping Beauty and and, you know, being kissed by a prince. Like that's no more or less sexual than it is uh that that gay kids get introduced to gay love. Um now some of these pride fests, yes, I can understand that there's um different levels of sexuality being displayed, but I think just seeing the word gay and lesbian or or being around it and being around uh other people isn't isn't sexual. It's it's identity.

[00:18:50]>> I I know I I agree with you and I think for a long time I've I I I think I probably feel the same way as you. My problem is with that I I feel like it doesn't stay there cuz you're right. I want kids to know that you can fall in love with a man or a woman. Who care you know, no we we just want you to be happy and and have a happy relationship and you know, achieve as much as you can. And you know, I so and yeah, with that there should be some education and awareness.

[00:19:13]I I like all that, too. But, I I do, you know, having gone to many pride parades in my life and having seen how it's, you know, the one I was at last year, I saw some things around kids that were not appropriate. So, that's for me I go into this realm of like, we need to if we're going to do it, we need to make sure it's kid-friendly.

[00:19:34]>> Yes, right. And I agree with you. I do, cuz I think as I've gotten older, I've I've kind of witnessed an increase of uh sexuality that goes on in the in the pride fest. And I do think about the kids. But, then I think about would we say that if kids uh families that go to nudist um groups and um and allow themselves to be naked in front of their children and they go to these new we I don't know if the people would feel the same way about that. Or or do they understand it cuz it's a different context? Or maybe it's a bad uh bad thing to I don't know. Maybe I should take this out of the podcast.

[00:20:05]>> I think it's a good point and I think um well, I think first of all, if we want to be strategic, it's the worst PR on Earth to see like a half-naked person twerking in front of a child. I mean, like I don't know what just from like a strategic perspective, like what are we doing? What cuz you know that's going to get clipped and sent everywhere and you can't deny it cuz it happened and it So, from just that perspective alone, I'm like, can we be more strategic? Like, are we trying to make people homophobic?

[00:20:27]But, anyway, I I take your point. I think in general, children are way overexposed to, you know, sexual thing.

[00:20:33]I mean, the average age that kids start watching porn is like eight. It's a crazy. So, I think we should take an approach that's much more about like safety and education and not any explicit content. And I I do agree that, you know, the quote-unquote straight community obviously does plenty of this themselves. But, I don't want to be like, well, they're doing it, too, so like I think it's wrong everywhere, you know?

[00:20:54]>> Right. Yeah, I get it, totally. Now, let's talk about gay male couples open relationships versus monogamous relationships. I'm sure that you have a lot to say about that and what you see.

[00:21:04]Where do you stand on that and how do you work with that?

[00:21:06]>> So funny, so like when I, you know, cuz I come from I think a lot almost every not every but most gay therapist I've met have come from very conservative repressive families, cultures, religions, and now they're like busting free, which I totally understand. Like I've seen that arc with so many people that I know of. You feel so like boxed in that you're just like, "I'm going to let it all hang out, you know?" For me it was the utter opposite. Like I come from I grew up in, you know, Hell's Kitchen right at right at Times Square.

[00:21:33]There was like hookers smoking all the time. I mean it was not It was in this New York, and my family was so progressive. So never ever felt like I was being stifled at all. It was, you know, everything was available. So I I know my perspective is a little bit informed by all of that.

[00:21:47]Um So I think there's a few things. When I first started hearing about the open relationship stuff in the context of therapy I I I like the idea of, you know, you can make your own rules. You don't have to you know, be adhere to any structure that you don't you don't choose. I really do like that, you know, like make it your own.

[00:22:06]However, I did feel like all of the presentation about this and literature was just like it's amazing. It's awesome. Everything was good. I heard no no negatives about at all. Just, you know, and I found that immediately kind of like, well, I don't think that's, you know, real. I think there's pros and cons to both, and we should talk about them honestly.

[00:22:24]And um so that's my general take on it is that it should always be about the person and the couple and what works for them, but it should be an honest conversation, not like a oh, it's it's it's going to be great, and if it doesn't go great, it's because you're not doing it right.

[00:22:37]>> Mhm.

[00:22:38]>> Right. It's communication and contract and agreements. And just like monogamy, I always say to my couples, have you have you negotiated your monogamy?

[00:22:46]Because we don't shouldn't just negotiate open.

[00:22:48]>> Mhm. I agree, and I also think too, and I'm such a direct person, so communication isn't isn't my struggle in life. I have other issues, but this isn't one of them. But even when they always talk about like, you know, just communicate and communicate and and which is good. But like, listen, if your significant other is like, "Hey, I'm going out tonight to hook up with this ridiculously hot guy who is better looking than you." They don't say that, but you know you know. You know, see you later. I don't care how much you communicate about that, it's not going to feel good. It's just It's just not.

[00:23:16]You're probably not going to feel great in that moment, and I I think we should be a little bit more honest with how we frame it for people, you know?

[00:23:23]>> I do think what you're saying makes sense that we don't make room for it not working out, like you're saying. Like if we don't make room for people to say, "Well, I I kind of am uncomfortable with that." Because we do tend to and I'm probably one of those people that tend to favor the um the openness more and and and that we do do it better. I really feel like as a rule, gay men know how to negotiate their open relationships better than straight people, but we don't talk about the times that they don't.

[00:23:47]>> I also, you know, think that open relationships work best for gay male couples because it just to me feels very male. The whole that that, you know, I I can't imagine a straight couple being open. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I've never met a woman who wants her that have to go on.

[00:24:02]Um I I know it happens here or there, but it does make sense to me for like a male gay male sexuality experience, this would work the best.

[00:24:09]>> Yeah, and often it's because it's just transactional. I'm just going to go out and have transactional sex and come back to you.

[00:24:14]>> Yeah, I mean you know, all girls that I know, I've asked them, like, "Do you Do you Would you want that? Like, if you could" And then they're like, "No. I I don't I want my husband to like, you know, I don't know, make dinner or like, you know, tell me I'm pretty. I I don't want to go hook up with hot guys for like that's They don't think that way, you know?"

[00:24:30]>> Yeah, yeah. It's definitely gender issue. What are some of the top gay male sexuality or erotic issues that your clients struggle with or that you see struggling?

[00:24:39]>> Sexuality. Um Well, I think in general, a lot There's a lot of just lack of confidence uh and insecurity, which I think is totally fair, particularly if you're gay, you know, that the experience of developing that confidence was quite different. Um I do think that there's become a lot of over-reliance on like ED medications, which again is totally fine if that helps and and you need that, but um I feel like a lot of people are using they have anxiety about sex and they're taking Cialis, but that's not really what they need. So, I think that's become a little bit commonplace and maybe too over over-prescribed.

[00:25:15]Um and then I think also too a lot of gay men uh struggle to communicate just directly about what they like sexually, particularly when I feel like our culture is so very like, you know, celebrating as much sex as you want, anything go you know, whatever. But, if you're like, "Yeah, I'm just like a regular guy who wants to have sex a couple times a week and like, you know, this one position I like and I'm cool."

[00:25:39]Like that we don't that's like that's like wrong, you know?

[00:25:42]>> Yeah.

[00:25:42]>> So, um I think sometimes I hear from people and that there's such an emphasis emphasis on being so hypersexual and they assume that everyone else is.

[00:25:53]>> Yeah.

[00:25:53]>> And I don't think that they are. I think people are having gay men are having less sex than we actually think.

[00:25:59]>> I think you're very right about that. Um and what about I guess another thing just to being in West Hollywood, uh the body image issues and how people, you know, walking around and they're very fit. And then what about a guy that isn't fit? Have you had people struggle with that in your office?

[00:26:12]>> Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think like I don't know. I feel like every young gay man I know when they first go into the gay neighborhood and they see guys that look so great. You Of course it's intimidating cuz you're like, you know, 20 years old and you're still filling out and like, I mean, I was like super skinny until I was like 28 or so, you know, so I think everyone there's like a a body confidence thing just from like becoming a man and then also seeing people that, you know, have such a high standard. And but I do think a lot of it comes into how much you buy into that, that my worth is tied to this sort of thing. Um cuz also I mean, there's so many different types. I mean, some guys like, you know, lean, they like, you know, hairier, they like this, they like that.

[00:26:55]I mean, there's so much variety, too, so even when people talk about like the the the West Hollywood look or like the gay look. I mean, I kind of have an idea, but I also don't. I mean, I I think it comes a lot more down to like preference, you know?

[00:27:09]>> Mhm. I think a lot of people buy into what the what's most visible are the types of bodies that seem unattainable to some many guys. So, then they feel like I don't fit in or I there's something wrong with me.

[00:27:21]>> Mhm. Mhm. Which I can understand like and I think, you know, women have been subjected to this like endlessly with the how brainwashed they've been.

[00:27:29]But um but I also feel like, you know, at least here, there's so many night there's like nights where the clubs were specifically for like this like otters and bears and this and that. And so, like there's I feel like gay guys do celebrate a lot of different looks also.

[00:27:42]I know a lot of people that aren't into like, you know, 0% body fat dude, you know? So, I think it's like about obviously you want you want to find your people and find where you feel celebrated, but I think it does exist.

[00:27:55]>> Yeah. Okay, that's good to know. Um what else would you want people to hear before we come to an end that maybe something we didn't talk about that you want to make sure people know about your work. What about uh gay shame? Do you want to talk about that? I think that's a big thing I've heard you talk about in your videos.

[00:28:09]>> Yes. Yes. So, and this is actually one thing I think is uh a little bit of an issue with the universities, too, is that so much of um I think a lot of gay men do struggle with shame. Uh I think goes without saying. But I do feel like often that what happens is there's a there's a a certain shame that they we've internalized and we try to work that out through external things like by looking a certain way, by being successful, by whatever it is. And what I think the typical gay pattern is you get all those things and you still feel bad about yourself and then you're like, what do I do? Then you go to therapy, you know?

[00:28:41]Like that's kind of the common pattern.

[00:28:43]Um I do feel like sometimes we are we even the therapist externalize that so much. Like I remember for example having a therapist who was like when I told him I was gay, I guess he couldn't tell, but you know, I mentioned it and it was like, "Oh my god, you've been through so much." And I'm like, "Not really, you know."

[00:29:04]And and he was like, "No, no, no, no, you have." And it just kind of felt like it felt like I'm being force-fed this narrative that just because you're gay, you have this internalized shame that is forever. And but it's not but also since it's coming from the world and outside, you can't really do anything about it.

[00:29:19]So you know, I'm just going to validate you as you as you feel bad about yourself. I don't know, it just felt kind of and I do hear that a little bit sometimes.

[00:29:29]>> See, this is what I think I was drawn to some of the things you've said in your videos because you have a different take. Like you have not had a horrible childhood growing up gay, right? You grew up in a gay neighborhood, it sounds >> Correct. Yes, definitely horrible.

[00:29:41]Definitely a horrible childhood.

[00:29:43]>> Oh, you did?

[00:29:44]>> But not for not for being gay. Not for being gay.

[00:29:47]>> [laughter] >> Right, okay. But but right, so so like you're a new generation of gay guys that like that, you know, didn't live through I mean you were called queer, you said, right?

[00:29:56]>> Yeah, but it was different and I'll tell you too cuz I have I have siblings who are much younger than me.

[00:30:01]Gen Z, it's like a different world. No one like they don't care, you know, they're all doing different everyone's fluid. So I think sometimes we are kind of stuck on on our past a little bit.

[00:30:12]>> Yeah, yeah. And stuck on the negatives and I mean that's how my whole work has been built on and now I'm learning from younger generation like you, like, "Oh, it's not like it's not always like that anymore, you know?"

[00:30:23]>> Yeah, yeah, and I also I think also too part of the reason why I am so resilient is because of things that were tough, you know, like I do feel a lot of confidence in life because I feel like I've handled certain things. It wasn't so easy in certain circumstances, so I wouldn't I don't like begrudge all of these I don't need the world to be perfect for me.

[00:30:41]Yeah. Good. Yeah.

[00:30:43]All right. So, where can people find you? We're going to list it on the website, but why don't you tell them?

[00:30:47]>> So, my website michaelpuzzulo.com and then on YouTube Therapy for Game Men and then on Instagram at michaelpuzzulolmft.

[00:30:56]So.

[00:30:57]No one has my name. So, if it's if you see that last name, it's me.

[00:31:00]>> All right. Oh, good. That's right. You do have an unusual name. Good. Yes, please go and follow him. You'll like what he has to say. Michael, it's been such a pleasure. I knew it would be to have you on my show. Thank you.

[00:31:09]>> Oh, thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it.

[00:31:12]>> Yep. And if you like this episode and you want to hear more, uh the podcast is smartsexsmartlove.com, but you can also find us on Apple and Spotify and Amazon, all the places that podcast exists. And you can follow me on Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram um @drjoekort drjoekort.

[00:31:33]Until next time, be safe and be well.