Is Avengers: Doomsday Dead on Arrival? Plus, House of the Dragon Season 3, Episode 5 | The Watch

[00:00:05]I need sports to have to clear the room.

[00:00:08]>> Stand up and walk now.

[00:00:11]>> Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ry and I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio.

[00:00:19]Somehow Gambit has returned. IT'S ANDY GREENWALD.

[00:00:24]>> WHAT a big show for us today.

[00:00:26]>> That's a rich tapestry. Life's rich tapestry. This Rich Pageant.

[00:00:30]>> Sure.

[00:00:30]>> That's Rm. That's Andy Grunwald. I'm Chris Ryan. You can hit us up at the watch atspotify.com. Uh we are going to be doing a mailbag. Not this week.

[00:00:39]>> Mhm.

[00:00:39]>> I guess the following week. I'm trying to like plot out like cuz I'm going to go away for a little chunk, but we're going to we're going to have some stuff for you. We're going to we're going to we're going to do a special I think on Anthony Bourdain coming up.

[00:00:50]>> Okay. Um, and in honor of the movie Tony, the watch at Spotify.com, the watchpod on Instagram, ringer-tv on YouTube, where we share >> share a little shingle with Prestige TV, who have been covering Cape Fear.

[00:01:04]>> It's like our own little Harrenhal.

[00:01:06][laughter] >> Who owns it? We don't know.

[00:01:08]>> Is the Alice Rivers, I think. Uh, and yeah, that's what that's what we do. We we cover pop culture and mostly TV on Mondays and Thursdays. I'm Chris Ryan.

[00:01:17]Have I mentioned that?

[00:01:18]>> Yeah. I've been broadcasting pretty much non-stop for an entire month. So, it's starting to get a little gy here.

[00:01:23]>> We're going to get you through it. I want to thank you and nation thanks you for dressing in the colors of lettuce to celebrate what we've lost as a country.

[00:01:31]>> Not me. I was at Taco Bell all weekend.

[00:01:33][laughter] Just stay in line.

[00:01:36]>> Stay in line. They have to let you eat.

[00:01:38]Just [laughter] Just like the Jordan Peele meme of like one trickle of sweat.

[00:01:42]>> Today on the show, Andy and I are going to talk about the following. the Doomsday trailer, the X Files possibly being a movie as well as a TV show.

[00:01:51]We're going to talk a little bit about some Netflix numbers that popped out to me, and we're also going to talk about the release of the classic cult classic television show, The Prisoner, on the Criterion Channel.

[00:02:01]>> That sounds like a healthy lineup. It >> I look forward to talking about it with you.

[00:02:05]>> Um, perhaps the most important thing that's happened to this podcast since Donald Trump's re-election, uh, apparently Rachel Kusk is writing a novel about Natalie Portman. yours.

[00:02:15]Okay. For years, >> for years, >> I start with [ __ ] like that and you're like, why don't we save that for the special segment at the end?

[00:02:22]>> I can't even say that that could feasibly go into After Dark. That would be like a crime.

[00:02:27]>> This is all I want to talk about.

[00:02:29]>> And you know what? I've always said, >> yeah, >> when it comes to the two Rachel's, I'm a Kushner. That's just how it is.

[00:02:36]>> True. There are two tribes.

[00:02:38]>> There's also a Miss Rachel, I believe.

[00:02:40]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:02:40]>> And she's on the Netflix top 10.

[00:02:42]>> God bless her. And uh but you you're a cus guy.

[00:02:45]>> I >> and I really need your comments on this.

[00:02:48]>> You know, I I have dabbled on both sides of the aisle.

[00:02:52]>> Yeah. But I feel like you're not >> you don't you don't have a a a house at Creation League if you know what I'm saying.

[00:02:57]>> No, I got I I I did do a time share there and I got host cuz that book was good.

[00:03:04]>> No, it's not. That book's cool.

[00:03:05]>> It's not good. Um by the way, the best part about this podcast just I feel like in real time there's breaking news.

[00:03:11]judge granted a temporary restraining order to pause the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. But let's talk about Rachel Cusk.

[00:03:18]>> No, but like what do you want me to say to that? I Cuz like we live we're we're just >> I'm on the front foot.

[00:03:24]>> This is great.

[00:03:24]>> Do you What judge? Judge Rory Bean. Who did that?

[00:03:28]>> What judge? Who appointed that judge?

[00:03:29][laughter] Man of people. Okay, so let's do a little backstory here. I feel like Ka's going to appreciate this as well.

[00:03:35]>> Are we leading with this? Cuz I was going to say you want Doomsday, then we can do >> Okay. Doomsday. Then we can do [clears throat] Rachel Kusk. Doomsday for Natalie Portman, aka Jane Foster, formerly Thor. How about that? There we go. Okay. Okay. Let's do Doomsday. But I do want to talk about the other thing.

[00:03:49]>> They dropped the Doomsday trailer uh this morning.

[00:03:53]>> Uh and I will say they have got some [ __ ] cheek putting this out the Monday after Odyssey. [laughter] I'm trying to think of what this would be like. Sure. This would almost be like um you have like the crazy amazing weekend with your stepdad who just buys you all the stuff for your birthday and then like alcoholic dad shows up on Monday and is like, "Hey, >> I got a bobblehead at the Dodgers game that I snuck into." Like it is really struggle meal hours over there at Disney. No offense, guys, but >> yeah, >> I don't think you can keep selling us the same [ __ ] Look, uh, the concern level has gone up considerably.

[00:04:34]>> Yeah, >> I'm going to be seeing this movie. I look forward to talking about all the buildup and all the nonsense, but I I I saw, thanks to our friend Mina Kims, that the ice bucket challenge is back. I would like to suggest a new challenge.

[00:04:48]Marvel put real people in an actual room challenge.

[00:04:52]The fact that after all of these years and after all of this money and after all of this hype, we're back in the purple halls of nowhere, dog. It's just negative space that's super super dark.

[00:05:05]>> And you can tell like as there has been reporting to to sort of at least suggest this.

[00:05:11]>> These guys don't know what they're saying. They don't know what scene this is. is they don't know when this scene is happening and what two movies stretch that they're >> in this like in indefinite servitude in Atlanta to shoot. Like they have no idea.

[00:05:24]>> And it's funny because it it does no one will be more happy than I would be if like secretly the bones of this movie were strong and >> we love the stuff that this movie is going to be about is like an in a generationally good comic run.

[00:05:39]>> The Jonathan Hickman stuff. Yes.

[00:05:42]>> Okay. But here is my feeling watching this trailer.

[00:05:46]Uh cuz I have been relatively I think bullish on this movie.

[00:05:51]>> Um this weekend I was with my my children. We were walking in a lovely neighborhood in the northeast of Los Angeles and across the street we saw some branding for a place that caught my eye. It was like bright, eye-catching, like had a little cartoon iconography and I was like, "Oh, is that a new is that a chain? Is that something I'm supposed to know? Is that something the kids might like?" And I got closer and it looked like a a Japanese ery of some kind. And you know me, I love the foods of the Far East. And I was like, "This seems exciting." And I got closer and it had like a cute name and the image of like a cat eating something that looked like sashimi. And I was like, >> "What could be more interesting than this? You have my attention. You have me." Then I got closer and I saw that it seemed to be an entire store dedicated to selling slices of raw fish inside of cooked tofu skin. Okay. Now, who among us doesn't love Yuba? You know, I do.

[00:06:43]>> I feel like that was >> But my thing >> a >> Hold on. It was a little unfair. You set that up so that you could show that you [laughter] knew what Yuba was.

[00:06:52]>> Do you think anyone who's listened to this podcast for 10 years thought I didn't know the name of Tofu Skin?

[00:06:56]>> Go ahead.

[00:06:56]>> Come on.

[00:06:57]>> Go ahead.

[00:06:58]>> My point was I don't think people want this as much as the store's optimism thinks that it does.

[00:07:05]>> Yes. And that is how I felt being like carried along the hype winds for a few months and then the reality of Gambit versus Shani in a dark room.

[00:07:16]>> So I would say >> I don't know if that's what I want >> or originally with all due respect to all the characters featured in this in this trailer. My initial reaction was like, "Oh, they're doing this is the trailer for like like the newer characters, the your uh what was the Florence P movie? That was >> Thunderbolts."

[00:07:36]>> Thunderbolts as you see Thunderbolts.

[00:07:38]>> Yes. Yeah. Wasn't that like your favorite movie of the year?

[00:07:41]>> I thought it was the most emotionally engaging. It was the most Yeah, it was the truest emotional [laughter] movie of >> Didn't you send like a weird emo text where I was like, I had real feelings and tears watching that.

[00:07:51]>> I did not say tears.

[00:07:52]>> That was about people working through their trauma and pain. my favorite subject.

[00:07:57]>> That sounds like me.

[00:07:58]>> That does sound like me. I didn't say >> I thought it was fine.

[00:08:01]>> Um, but you see a bunch of people like Neymar and Shi and uh Ant-Man and Elena and all these people and you're like, okay, like this is actually when you kind of think about what's happened to this cinematic universe. Like >> these are the these are the guys I sort of expected and there's a brief Cyclops which I assume is Marsden, right?

[00:08:21]>> Marsden >> and get Gambit. you get you get these glimpses of people, but I was like, "Oh, I bet they're going to save the homies for like the next trailer, right?" Like they have to they have to have like Thor and Hulk and all the guys in the next whatever the >> go on.

[00:08:38]>> And they had to give away the like Steve's back.

[00:08:41]>> They had to give away the Steve one because they had nothing. And I mean Thor is the star of the trailer because he's the only remaining star of the movies that were popular, >> right? And uh the corny this the corniest thing is that it's not just that your man Steve's back. It's that they just redid the beat that made everyone scream on YouTube that he's worthy.

[00:09:05]>> Yeah.

[00:09:06]>> They just did it again.

[00:09:07]>> Yeah. Now it has been Has it been 10 years?

[00:09:10]>> No.

[00:09:11]>> How long is that?

[00:09:12]>> Well, seven calendar years, but co so really it's only been about three or four years.

[00:09:16]>> Okay. [laughter] >> By my math.

[00:09:17]>> Okay. Um, I just Ben Bradley and all the presidents Benvo, they haven't got it.

[00:09:24]Like whatever it It's a really good story. It's a really hard story to tell.

[00:09:28]The Secret Wars thing that they're probably trying to do here.

[00:09:32]>> I I I wonder whether or not I'm reacting to like maybe maybe the thing they're going to show me is Doom. Maybe maybe Doom will save this whole thing.

[00:09:41]Ironically, >> because they showed you the thing.

[00:09:43]>> What?

[00:09:44]>> The thing?

[00:09:44]>> Doom.

[00:09:45]>> No, Ben Grim. The thing? Yes, they showed me the thing. But maybe Doom >> Sorry, that's a little Marvel word play.

[00:09:51]>> Maybe Doom is what's gonna sell this whole project. And >> maybe maybe >> do you like his accent?

[00:09:58]>> Uh, no. Did you I mean, I don't know.

[00:10:01][laughter] >> Do you like his accent?

[00:10:03]>> I didn't know if you had any >> me watching the studio shows on the World Cup. [laughter] >> Yeah, sure. I like that one. Less that one.

[00:10:10]>> Yeah. Uh, look, I mean, they have they're in an interesting bind where they have they they have not been shy about telling us that like one of the planks of this movie is the Thunderbolts, one of the planks of this movie is the 2000's Fox X-Men, and one of the planks of this movie is the Wakandons and the Fantastic Four.

[00:10:32]>> And they're like, that's that's the big tent that we envision for this party.

[00:10:37]And uh I to your point I don't know if it's enough. Now they've also done the same thing. They've tried to be cute in the same way they were with Infinity War and Endgame where they're like Spider-Man's not in this one but it'll be in that one you know and I think that they have tried to suggest that this will tee up true craziness with everyone back in the next one. But so far they can't give away you said Hulk and the gang. Like I think they the story is that Hulk, Spider-Man, um these characters are not Deadpool. I imagine Deadpool will be in this movie. And I imagine that this true sign of desperation will be signaling that in the next >> excessive amount of Deadpool voice over, you know, >> or the Deadpool cut of this trailer.

[00:11:19]>> Yeah. Although I don't I mean like I don't know where Brian Reynolds stands right now. They call that like that weird Mayday movie with him and Kenneth Brena. They're just like, >> "Do you know what they should do?

[00:11:29]>> Dumping that on Apple TV."

[00:11:30]>> You know what the real power move would be?

[00:11:32]>> They put Deadpool in the movie and you know it's multiversal, whatever. And Deadpool pulls off his mask at one point and it's Justin Baldon.

[00:11:40]>> That would be a a curveball.

[00:11:42]>> That would be Wouldn't that be so sick?

[00:11:44]Would you be so engaged with that content?

[00:11:46]>> That would really >> You would love that.

[00:11:48]>> Make me really excited to see.

[00:11:49]>> And then Lady Deadpool would be his Mrs. Beldon. I don't know her name. Um, last comment because I think this is something we should be tracking between now and December when this movie is released. Um, you have been you have been bold. You have been brave. You have put the Russo brothers on fraud watch years ago.

[00:12:09]>> Yes. Ever since they uh ruined my beloved novel Cherry. Yeah. That I liked so much when they when I was like these guys again. They don't have it.

[00:12:18]>> So they they they came back.

[00:12:20]>> They sure did. And looks like they spent a lot of money in some dark soundstages in London.

[00:12:25]>> Yeah.

[00:12:25]>> Yeah.

[00:12:26]>> Look, who among us wouldn't want to spend time doing that? But >> okay, >> they they it's interesting to think that this will become more of a like um expiring your contract that these two movies that are supposed to save the MCU >> will become more of a like how do we get off the doomsday thing? You know what I mean?

[00:12:46]>> That's so crushing.

[00:12:47]>> So that you can get to X-Men cuz that's what this is all about. It's like if if X-Men if they cast X-Men right and they do it right that will give this whole thing another 10 15 years >> maybe >> of oxygen but if they don't I don't know I don't know I don't know how much longer Disney's in this weird spot like I'm not predicting that they're going to ramp down the MCU and put it into hibernation for 10 years or something >> but they've got to start making things that people actually love again >> and they have not done that in a long time. Well, that's just not that's not just Marvel. That's their cartoons.

[00:13:21]That's everything. Yeah.

[00:13:22]>> The Moana thing is an abomination.

[00:13:24]>> Yeah.

[00:13:24]>> That was ridiculous.

[00:13:26]>> But Star Wars is in the mud. Moana.

[00:13:28]Yeah. You know, like these liveaction adaptations of cartoons like Josh Dearo.

[00:13:33]Come on, man. Give me a call. I'll help you out.

[00:13:35]>> Do you I believe the Well, the rumor is that at Comic-Con the X-Men cast will be announced.

[00:13:41]>> So, I got uh hoodwinkedked by a tweet this weekend. Where I didn't retweet it.

[00:13:46]linked by a tweet. My life, >> but it was like breaking down who's like who in the X-Men like they here's the rumored casting and it was like Cooper Hoffman as Cyclops, Sadie Sink as Gan Gray, and it kept keeps going and then it's like >> Erica Kirk as Emma Frost.

[00:14:01][laughter] I was like, damn. And I was like, wait, you you leaned in though. [laughter] It's definitely a way to engage, right? Yeah. JD Vance's new baby, [laughter] somebody.

[00:14:14]>> Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of smoke around some of the names that I imagine that they are not inaccurate, at least in terms of people having been engaged in like uh [snorts] my guy Charles Melton apparently joining the cast. Odessa as Beast.

[00:14:31]>> Oh, >> Odessa Zion as Rogue.

[00:14:34]>> Oh, I I'd seen Kaylee Spany as Rogue.

[00:14:36]Interesting. Where different algorithms.

[00:14:39]Was that also the Turning Point USA [laughter] cast list that you seem to be okay?

[00:14:48]It's fine. You know, >> I I just wanted to mention that um X-Files, the rebooted X-Files.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah.

[00:14:54]>> Um uh which is coming from Ryan Cougler is uh it got announced over like the last couple of days that he's shooting the pilot on 65mm film and that it's going to be a two-hour pilot that might hit theaters. And I wanted to ask you about whether or not in your experiences, you know, obviously working as a writer and and talking to people, >> do people seriously think through and think about the theatrical slashTV hybrid model? Because this is something that is legendarily not really worked, right? Like people like a certain story because of the way it's told in a certain medium. There's a real like logic to XFiles shows. Now, their movies I happen to really like the XFiles movies.

[00:15:39]>> Yeah.

[00:15:40]>> But they I wouldn't say that they gave X-Files like a whole new birth, you know, like of of life.

[00:15:46]>> I think it's a good question. I No one thinks or talks about that in terms of like actually a hybrid hybrid strategy.

[00:15:53]>> Yeah. Because every once in a while like somebody comes along and they're like, I'm going to do Dark Tower and it's going to be five seasons and two movies.

[00:15:58]>> That that doesn't work. But what does work I think and this this I'm sure they've talked about it. This would be a good topic for the big picture too is there has been a blurring of lines and maybe I I don't mean of standards but of like putting things in theaters as a way of getting enthusiasm of building excitement of signifying something important or major works and has worked increasingly I think as the movie theater to the degree that it is surviving is surviving as a place for for true unbridled hype and communal experience. So, Stranger Things finale, I think, premiered in theaters, or at least it was a theater opportunity experience that weekend.

[00:16:41]>> I think you were away when I talked about this, but um a Netflix, formerly YouTube, then Netflix show that my daughters loved called The Amazing Digital Circus, premiered its final episode in theaters a week before it went on Netflix.

[00:16:52]>> They did like 25 million, right?

[00:16:54]>> Yes. And some of those millions were mine. No, some of those dollars that added up to the millions were mine. I am not a Stubs member, so I had to pay full full boat. and um and that works. So I think the ideal uh cultural legs and memory um from a filmmaker, one of the few filmmakers who can open movies.

[00:17:16]>> Sure.

[00:17:17]>> Um I think it's incredibly smart way to get people watching the TV show, especially if, as you said, they're filming it anyway and it's going to look amazing on people's nice televisions.

[00:17:27]Why not?

[00:17:28]>> Yeah. I I have no I mean I want to see himsh Patel and Daniel Deadweiler.

[00:17:31]>> It's such a good cast >> find aliens like like and that can happen in any way. I part of the sort of thrill of watching and even going back to watch XFiles is the variance from episode to episode because they were still operating in that 20 per year 20 per season model and they there are some duds, there are some funny ones, there are some good monsters of the week. There are some great serialized stories and you know I don't know whether this will be like an eight episode >> kind of prestigy feel or whether they'll try to recapture some of that original energy. I would have to imagine if Cougler is like spending time with it, it's because he likes the totality of X-Files and not just like >> I hope so.

[00:18:10]>> Fox Moulder's sister got disappeared.

[00:18:13]You know, >> she did.

[00:18:14]>> She did.

[00:18:15]>> She did. You know who else's sister disappeared was um John Sugar from the television show Sugar.

[00:18:20]>> Honestly, the tie-in is right there.

[00:18:22]>> It's obvious.

[00:18:23]>> I just got chills.

[00:18:24]>> Yeah. Sugar files. If the XFile No, but the thing is the new X-Files get the case and we're like, "Oh my god, detective John Sugar is going to be outered as an alien by the X-Files, but actually the case is who the [ __ ] green lit this where he's [laughter] an alien." And so the investigation is coming from is is a Hollywood story.

[00:18:44]>> I like that. Yeah. Good.

[00:18:46]>> Good.

[00:18:46]>> Good. Files. Great.

[00:18:49]>> Netflix releases its last bianual what we watched report. Moment of silence for that.

[00:18:55]>> Explain this to me. It's the last. they had been releasing bianual reports about what you know their their for the sake of transparency their some of their data on on right >> what shows were being watched at what capacity where all that stuff and I think that the idea was that that was supposed to be uh a nod to not only transparency to customers but to creators and also to investors in Netflix it's like check out the incredible number we had on Stranger Things or >> particularly if it's things like the ones you just mentioned which are prop properties they own.

[00:19:29]>> Yes. And now they have announced that they're going to go to an annual model.

[00:19:33]I think the reason this jumped out when I read about it in deadline was because I know that Trump had sort of been like why are we doing quarterly financial reports anymore? Um >> which seems like that would benefit somebody like Trump but not >> well isn't he isn't he too busy selling early market moving tweets to social? So I I you know I I'm not saying that Netflix is trying to manipulate the market and as much as I not I I I think this this became of note because we're in this weird moment with Netflix where for our purposes we have not gone to it as much you know like yes like >> there is still entertaining content on the service and they're they're obviously putting themselves >> a little bit more in the center of the live um television experience by doing all these um >> wrestling and comedy And you know, they've got NFL games, they have NBA games, >> the home run derby.

[00:20:27]>> Yeah, they have the home run derby. So, they're in the mix now and that is a bigger deal to them than Ripley, right?

[00:20:33]>> Yeah. Sure. But um I I found it very interesting that you know not only some of the highlights over the last four years which deadline accumulated uh some stats from like basically the era that they were doing by annual reporting and you know there are some interesting things like among the top 20 shows over the last four years Eric Banner's forest ranger show Untamed which nar a person I think other than me watched um >> say more about that. Well, I like mountains and I like national parks.

[00:21:05]>> I like Eric Bana.

[00:21:06]>> I like Is it a scripted series or does he just go to mountains?

[00:21:09]>> Honestly, it probably would have been better and if it was the latter, but it is a scripted series and while I enjoyed it, it is it gets it's a real like this should have been a three >> episode show or a two-hour movie, but instead now we have four or five episodes that are about like your complicated relationship with your daughter.

[00:21:25]>> No, hold on. [laughter] Now I'm interested. um to see I think also given the fact that we kind of dropped off Squid Game after season one.

[00:21:34]>> We did >> and I could never really tell how popular it was. It is insanely popular and is the >> I believe the most recent there's there's two seasons of Squid Game in the top three shows of the last four years.

[00:21:49]Um, adolescence is number two. And I it speaks to like what a phenomenon that was. And I would be shocked knowing that if they didn't figure out a way if not to like bring back that specific character group to do something anthology around it.

[00:22:06]>> I believe it's happening.

[00:22:07]>> Yeah. I mean like it just is like you >> this this was lightning in a bottle.

[00:22:10]>> There were rumors that our the friend of our pod dear friend Kate Winslett was circling a role in a second season of Adolescence.

[00:22:17]>> Really? I don't know if I don't know that that's based on anything. I mean, I believe I got that from Turning Point USA as well. But [laughter] um >> um so those are some of the you know, adolescence, the gentleman did very well over the last four years. Uh basically all of Stranger Things is in the top 20 for the last four years from this year and from January to June.

[00:22:36]>> This is their top 10.

[00:22:37]>> Okay.

[00:22:37]>> His and hers, >> which by the way, I'm shocked by.

[00:22:40]>> Me, too.

[00:22:41]>> Not, you know, not because we're not stakeholders in Burnernthal Holdings Limited. I'm I'm I'm legitimately like I had no idea that this was a essentially a blockbuster. It's above Bridgetgerton.

[00:22:51]>> It was not wellreceived I would say by critically but clearly audiences.

[00:22:56]>> That's the Tessa Thompson John Bernthal thriller. Bridgetgerton I will find you which I think is one of the Harlon Cobin shows. Stranger Things season 5 the last season which I guess technically came out in 20 right?

[00:23:08]>> I I would hope so cuz otherwise Stranger Things season 5 getting half the numbers of his and hers would be catastrophic.

[00:23:14]Well, I don't know if it's half the numbers or is it like a decimal point below, but I'm just reading.

[00:23:18]>> Or is it that most people were so excited about the show they watched it the minute it came out?

[00:23:22]>> Yes. And I also like Netflix's way of calculating its popularity could have to do more with I mean they they say it had 56 million I think views.

[00:23:33]>> Sure.

[00:23:34]>> I I don't that I think there's another 50 million who watched it the day it >> you know it came out. And season five also was broken down into such like a long stretch out. Uh, Runaway. I don't know what that is. Uh, Teach You a Lesson. I don't know what that is. One Piece. You know what that is.

[00:23:51]>> Um, well played.

[00:23:52]>> Man on Fire, which to my my great regret, we did not discuss, uh, was number eight. Miss Rachel, number nine, and The Night Agent season 3, number 10.

[00:24:01]>> Okay.

[00:24:02]>> Do you do you do you look at that and divine any um great learnings?

[00:24:07]>> Not particularly. I mean, I think that everything that we recognize on here, I think tracks to us as what works on Netflix and certainly we know one of the reasons we know that is because they make a lot of shows that feel like these shows that fit into certain boxes. Um, things that will work better on their service. I think the bigger conversation here is more about what you were saying in terms of how they are evolving their service and the future that they see for it. The aside to this B-side story about how they're going to change their reporting is they missed their earnings again and their stock tumbled considerably um this week. It was it dropped their stock dropped 9.5%.

[00:24:50]Um, it's the it's the second straight miss that they've had. And the financial reporting, of which I'm responsible for none, and I don't fully understand, said that it was mostly to do with a reassessment of what the company's strengths and plans are after the failed Warner Brothers bid, which I think >> perplexed investors, >> uh, and sort of mixed mixed results for what they care about in terms of the expansion. That's why the other story this week that was bubbling was people were asking Netflix when are you going to launch a fast service? When are you going to launch an adup supported service? when are you going to >> they have some ad tiers and now they've talked about having some always on channels on Netflix >> right so what seem what's there's two ways to look at it one way to look at it is Netflix is a juggernaut and can experiment with almost anything and it is still kind of de facto streaming TV for most households and that's an advantage that the other companies can never um reach a a go they can never reach the other version of looking at it is they're trying anything they are trying anything to try to get some purchased like get their uh boots on the ground of something sustainable >> because the go go go we will just keep spending to show growth to get investor confidence that inevitably hits some sort of a ceiling and um I again this is not me concern trolling Netflix but it is interesting in terms of its identity and the way we always approach it from what we do here is what is is is the scripted television like what What are their calling cards? What is their business in that?

[00:26:29]>> And I wonder if internally what the ratio of what's the ven diagram of Netflix's value and growth areas when you're actually in the boardrooms. Is it how do we expand into uh live programming and sports to become the deacto hub? Is it do we do a commercial tier? How loud are the voices saying no no more Stranger Things original shows on Broadway?

[00:26:55]Right. Literally though, like in terms of like merch and K-pop demon hunters and becoming a brand in that sense, I don't know. But it's an interesting moment to see a company that is absolutely dominant struggling. And I'm putting that in quotes. It is not struggling, but in terms of >> it positive now. It's just one of those I if I if I remember the most recent thing I read, it was like Netflix is actually making money. It's just that its stock price and it's like perception to the to the the town and to Wall Street is a little bit rusty right now.

[00:27:23]And when you become when you return to opacity, when you get less uh transparent, let's say, with your with your data, which is what they're doing by going from twice a year to once a year, that will make people skittish. I think my big learning from this is there is now a Netflix genre. Um, and that it's not quite CBS but bingeable and it's not quite like Apple but a little bit faster and dirtier and and you know I I there's something about this the create the this sort of like there's a lot of grabby thrillers. Yeah. There's a lot of genre stuff, but genre stuff that isn't like I I don't find particularly like what I go to for genre >> like the coin industry >> or maybe even Night Agent, which I think like I watched a little bit of the first season and thought it was fine and and that was but the idea that it's a juggernaut show is kind of surprising to me. But it's interesting because you and I spend so much time talking about these HBO shows and talking about these Apple shows and you know other streamers and this is really obviously like dwarfs a lot of what we talk about in terms of how many people are watching this but I don't really find many shows there >> to talk about and or to to really like interrogate and maybe that's my failing as a as a commentator you know but there maybe is like a transition here where you're seeing the end of the Peter Freedellander era who was there when they were putting up Ripley and maybe some of their international purchases were more interesting. Yeah. And he was there for a very long time. Now he's at Amazon and I don't think they really care about whether or not they win best drama at the Emmys. I mean like I think Adolescence is really nice for them. I think Baby Ranger is really nice for them. Baby Ranger has done historically well for them over the last four or five years, but I don't really see a ton of stuff on here where they're like wish we could be competing with White Lotus this year. You know, the other thing that they've abandoned for the most part is third seasons. And increasingly like two seasons is starting to seem like a lot.

[00:29:24]And and that is because they are so cutthroat about the data and they're like the numbers go down.

[00:29:29]>> Well, they're abandoning those for the shows that we might watch. They're not abandoning it for like Ransom Canyon and Virgin River.

[00:29:35]>> No, but but those shows don't get seven years.

[00:29:39]>> Uh there's a couple that do.

[00:29:41]>> Well, like Lincoln Lawyer, I think, just got cut down after five and that's a huge show for them. Yeah, but they they have like a kind of weird like middle-aged CW kind of show where it's like a guy who has a general story.

[00:29:52]>> You know what the CW stands for?

[00:29:53]Conventional wisdom.

[00:29:55]>> They have like those shows where it's like she's a divorced mom and he he bridles horses.

[00:30:01]>> First of all, Minka Kelly deserves paychecks. So, I think that's awesome.

[00:30:05]Sure.

[00:30:06]>> Two inside baseball on this years ago, uh, when Netflix was getting into scripted, I remember there would be interviews with Tina Fay and they'd be like, "Oh, Tina, you've only made shows for NBC and now you're making, in this case, it was Kimmy Schmidt."

[00:30:21]>> Yeah.

[00:30:21]>> And they were like, "What are you learning? You know, what what insights are you getting?" And she's like, "They tell us nothing. We know nothing about who's watching our show or what they think about it. Um, we just deliver it and we don't have to do 21 minutes anymore. We can go longer." Mhm.

[00:30:34]>> I don't think that's nec necessarily the case anymore, but I recently was having a conversation with the head of a studio who works with Netflix and his point was they remain incredibly opaque about uh algorithmic data about like who, what, when. The thing that drives every decision they make is next, next, next.

[00:30:56]That is their note. And you can tell by the shows that they make is will you end on a beat? so undeniable that people will start watching the next thing the next one and and it's interesting to I would I would put this out to our audience too.

[00:31:12]>> If you're watching a show on a different service, maybe even one that drops shows weekly, but you start to feel that cadence, look in the trades and see who is bidding on it because there are examples out there of shows that were expressly developed for Netflix or for that model that have ended up on other services >> on Apple or whatever. Yeah.

[00:31:32]>> That don't do it. Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> And I wonder if that changes your interaction.

[00:31:35]>> And on the flip side of that, I will say Tina Fay, her most recent creation for Netflix is is uh The Four Seasons oddly has lots of like grabby kind of like are they going to break up moments where like most of the show is like people making kind of like affectionate mid-funny jokes about Thanksgiving dinner and then at the end it's like but whose baby is this? You know, like >> did you watch the second season?

[00:31:58]>> I did. Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> We don't talk about this stuff. Well, because there's like a kind of uh television watching experience that I have with my wife where we watch >> halfhour comedies as a kind of um >> a come down >> like a bedtime routine. Yeah. Like as like a >> Oh, I it was weird in retrospect. It was weird when you invited me over that time >> for like the sort of like let's settle >> right right in the middle >> guys.

[00:32:21]>> Yeah.

[00:32:21]>> What's on tonight? I mean I I >> that's the invite that's the invites.

[00:32:25]Truly, I I have watched into season two of four seasons, but I like you, I'm like I I don't really have anything insightful to say.

[00:32:33]>> You You're different than me in that I don't think that you want to watch television to feel completely brain dead. Like I think you're always like, "Is this good?" And I'm like, "I don't really care, >> you know? Like there is a kind of television that I will watch that is essentially like watching pain dry."

[00:32:51]>> Yeah.

[00:32:52]And sometimes I just need to turn it off, man. It's on a lot.

[00:32:56]>> The brain.

[00:32:56]>> Yeah.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah. I'm trying to think if I uh No, not really. I mean, I think that the equivalent for that for me is like ending the night with like my younger daughter's really really obsessed with like um treasure hunting the last 10 years of the Simpsons. We talked about this. So, she'll be like there's a funny one in episode.

[00:33:16]>> Yeah. Are you?

[00:33:17]>> Yeah. I'm like there's a cult in this one. Let's go.

[00:33:20]>> That's nice though. We I feel like that there's some servicey elements we could be exploiting in this >> SVU how to watch SVU victim [laughter] >> a deplorable person.

[00:33:33]Let's talk about House of the Dragon. I was very curious to know how you would feel. I don't even Did we talk about the last one together or was I gone?

[00:33:40]>> I think I referred to it in passing.

[00:33:43]>> You were gone and then I was I think I was >> talked to Joe about it and I believe I used the words [ __ ] interminable. How did you feel about this one?

[00:33:51]>> Even longer.

[00:33:52]>> Yeah.

[00:33:53]>> Uh it is a absolute struggle for me and I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it.

[00:33:59]However, I do have three points of light because I do like to be positive. Is there anything about this episode that you would like to highlight or shout out? Because the feeling that I dislike most that the show services mostly now is this like inexurable churn towards plot points. And I feel the weight of characters interacting just to get to the next plot point with very little room for brightness or light or even a feeling of obviously nothing about the show is improvd but any kind of spark as opposed to churning towards the gloom and doom that we are headed towards. And I find that just that isn't a television experience that I do not enjoy.

[00:34:41]>> I wouldn't get your hopes up about this being an upbeat show. So, I mean, like obviously there's there's going to be probably a degree to which the the the storytelling and the tone of the show mirrors what its eventual conclusion is.

[00:34:54]>> Um, I will say that the reason why I've been a little bit more forgiving or into these last couple of episodes than you is that I am far more interested than this in this particular set of characters that have been kind of introduced over the maybe this season especially.

[00:35:12]I wish they were the original lineup.

[00:35:14]Like I wish this had been three seasons with these people rather than three episodes as they've kind of broken out of the Targaryen Valyrian.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah.

[00:35:22]>> Uh camp and started to bring in Starks and >> different people coming to petition Reneer and like I'm like that guy's interesting. This person's interesting.

[00:35:31]What's I kind of now wish that this entire show had been >> a little bit more outside the walls of King's Landing. Listen.

[00:35:40]>> And um I can see what they're trying to do. I think the Reneer like >> I in some ways I think what they're doing with Reneer is more sure-handed than what they did with Daenerys.

[00:35:52]>> I don't even know if that's a controversial statement, but in terms of depicting how someone starts to become undone.

[00:35:58]>> Absolutely. And you know that is in a positive note because she has reclaimed the throne and has had not just a number of episodes but that one episode in particular that was the real season standout.

[00:36:10]>> Yes.

[00:36:11]>> We there's room to maneuver a performance towards something and and not indicate. You know I think one of the nice things about um my got it Emma Darcy >> performance is that um it's not telegraphing. It is quite present. Um almost to the point of like you kind of feel like Damon being like you're still hung up on that.

[00:36:31]>> Well, she's being suffocated by like the fact that every every conversation she has opens up a trap door of another problem. Yes. Yeah.

[00:36:39]>> Um but yeah, I think that's a very smart observation about something that this show does is is able to take more interest in.

[00:36:45]>> Like and Darren, the Stark wolves, Kristen Cole and Wayne specifically being like gorilla army. Um even like random scenes where it's like Jane of Aaron, you know, [clears throat] Jane Aaron of the Veil or whatever that her name is. Like she's she's like kind of got something and spark, >> but I think it would be cool. There's probably not enough plot to have done what's the veil been doing the entire time this show is going on.

[00:37:13]>> Well, exactly in what you said, there's not enough textual plot like >> Yeah. a a creative enterprise that was differently enabled and empowered could come up with a good story.

[00:37:25]>> Sure.

[00:37:26]>> You know, to set there in the backdrop of something, but that's not the show.

[00:37:29]>> That's an adaptation. I mean, what are you going to do, right?

[00:37:31]>> Well, there's some things you could do, but that is not the remit of the show.

[00:37:35]And it I'm not going to sit here for the >> Andy Sunshine and and and Graham crackers. What's What's going on? What did you love?

[00:37:43]>> I Because Let me Let me do Let me just do one more like kidney punch before we get started. just that be I I'm watching the show week to week and there are moments where I'm like >> man they're hanging some of these actors out to dry and like to the the dude who plays Aemon >> and uh >> like his when he got his script, you know, he's sitting in his trailer and he's putting on his wig or they're brushing out his long locks.

[00:38:08]>> I think it's a wig >> and is like we don't we don't know.

[00:38:10]>> I mean, I would imagine it's a wig.

[00:38:11]>> It's probably a wig >> and >> really damage your [clears throat] hair bleaching it like that. And people do things for their art. Yeah, Chris, you know.

[00:38:18]>> Um, and he's like, "What? Okay, what am I going to do today?" And it's just like Aemon wakes up half nude screaming about dragons in hell in a haunted bed. And he's like, "Yeah, I can I can see that."

[00:38:31]Or he's like, "All right, go." And he's like, "NO, MOTHER." LIKE, "CAN WE GET a little more on the no?" And it's like, "Dude, >> Targaryen. He's not going to be managing a fantasy Premier League team. Like I don't know what you want him to be doing.

[00:38:44]>> That's not what I wanted to be doing.

[00:38:45]It's just like first of all, we are [ __ ] back in the haunted house again with the trees.

[00:38:49]>> I am not a Harrenhaw guy.

[00:38:50]>> It's so boring. But second, it's just >> Grace Rankin and Alice and Gail Rankin is here on my list.

[00:38:55]>> Sorry, Gail Ranken.

[00:38:56]>> But it it's just like there are incredible performers elevating almost every scene. And I think that if you just look at the bones of it, some of these scenes are pretty thankless in terms of the opportunities for actors to do what they do best and to enliven something. So, I wanted to shout out three performers on this show who I look forward to seeing every time they're on the screen. And one I have to highlight because it is a zero to hero arc.

[00:39:22]>> Um, which is our guy Fabian Frankle as Kristen Cole. I'm not, you know, you know, I'm if nothing else, I'm accountable. And >> how much of this is Detective Grao?

[00:39:34]>> 50%.

[00:39:35]>> Yeah.

[00:39:37]The key for House of the Dragon characters is for them to appear on episodes of Task.

[00:39:41]>> The key for House of the Dragon characters is for you to have seen them be good in other things and then look forward to seeing if they're able to just like flash like a signs of life, like come rescue me kind of thing. Um, Kristen Cole is a thankless part I felt for the first two years and because of that I don't think we thought much of the actor playing him, which was unfair as it turns out.

[00:40:02]>> Speak for yourself. You were you were a little bit with me until you heard him talk like he was from like an upper broom.

[00:40:08]>> I thought he was cool.

[00:40:10]>> You thought he was cool?

[00:40:11]>> I thought he was interesting and cool.

[00:40:12]Yeah.

[00:40:13]>> What was What [laughter] was the coolest thing about Sir Kristen Cole? Oh, wait.

[00:40:18]>> Just like just riff a little bit.

[00:40:19]>> He's loyal.

[00:40:21]>> Loyal guy.

[00:40:23]>> He does work above his like his duties.

[00:40:27]You know what I mean? Like he's willing to >> He goes he goes the extra 10%.

[00:40:30]>> He does. Yeah. this season, putting taking him out of the claustrophobic court and making him be a a warrior in a Tim O'Brien novel basically >> works for him. I'm absolutely watching him through the eyes of seeing what he was capable of doing as another um deeply misguided soldier in task.

[00:40:52]>> Sure. But I thought this episode in particular, like when when his arc is make kill your horse, >> help your friends with his leeches, and then convince everyone to go on a suicide run.

[00:41:07]That's something an actor can work with.

[00:41:09]And I thought that he has like his what I mistook for like lack of charisma in this episode, you realize, is kind of a steady slowburn. And I thought he's great. I enjoy and I enjoyed the scenes with Wayne because we love Freddy Fox.

[00:41:20]>> Absolutely. They have the be some of I think among the best chemistry like those two and then Larris and Aegon.

[00:41:26]>> Yeah, I agree. And and it and it is a constant reminder and and again I don't want to sit here as I do for weeks and years and seasons of these shows being like, "Oh, we know better cuz we see something."

[00:41:37]>> Obviously like I I have I have just for the the crew I have stipulated that we do not need to do this. Like I think you're interested in the project and how they >> and and what I mean I I've decided to >> truly I know I don't always sound like it but I'm trying to look for the helpers. Look to the helpers. And like when you see good interesting actors with chemistry paired off or so much of the season devoted to them that is not a fluke. I think that the people making the show are empowered to do that because they are also interested in seeing what the people who can deliver can can do. Um so I really like those scenes. big Tom Glen Carney guy who plays Aegon. Like he is just even even with only one ear and one kind of stumpy ear hole. One of the more charismatic actors on the show.

[00:42:25]>> Have have had season tickets since Rogue Heroes.

[00:42:28]>> Yeah. And I've I've talked about this. I saw him in um All My Sons on the West End and he had a very very brief appearance. He has the smallest part and when he comes on he just he's just a lefty reliever coming in just throwing gas. just West End big time to me.

[00:42:44]That's okay.

[00:42:46]>> Well, I love theater and you like action shows, but that's we make it work.

[00:42:49]What's your take on the Aegon storyline?

[00:42:52]>> It's hard to talk about because I I've read ahead. So, I like it. I like that they are pairing him with another person who is now deformed and is like kind of like this is the way the world sees you and this is the way you can still get ahead. Mhm.

[00:43:10]>> Each one of these plot lines, each one of these planks of of the show >> at any given moment does not have enough going on for a full episode.

[00:43:19]>> It's true.

[00:43:20]>> And the way that they've chosen to do it, which is cross cutting across, you know, these say five story lines that they've got going. Mhm.

[00:43:28]>> I think it's probably the way they can get to eight episodes of television and 8 and you know 8 hours and 40 minutes or 9 hours however long the run time winds up being.

[00:43:39]>> But to your point about um who are you saying that oh maybe it was Aean where you're just like what am I doing today?

[00:43:46]It's like >> they don't really do much different from episode to episode. I mean, for as much as I love the Reneer episode two episodes ago, she is pretty much in the same exact space.

[00:43:57]>> It was a different way of looking at that.

[00:43:58]>> Yeah.

[00:43:59]>> And I like it. It's okay, you know, but there is not a >> there is neither a propulsion because it's such a breakneck show, >> right?

[00:44:10]>> Nor is there a concept of what it needs to be to be episodic to keep this thing kind of feeling light. and and I I am I'm committed to this and I like it and I I kind of just want to see how they execute some of the stuff that I think is coming or some of the stuff I know is coming. But it's really weird. It's it's a very specific kind of writing that I don't know if it would if it would work if there wasn't this sort of like carrot being dangled of like there's some big battles coming a >> and this and I do think my feelings about I mean the the the assignment of the show was always going to be challenging because it was the inverse of Game of Thrones and the challenge of the show is what are you going to do when the dragons aren't the main characters of an episode. Yeah.

[00:44:51]>> And I think that >> I prefer it though. I prefer that generally, but I think the show has struggled to answer that question successfully week to week over the season.

[00:45:00]>> So, you would rather have people be like, "Ah, Cyax, my beautiful beast."

[00:45:04]You know, like, >> keep going. [laughter] >> I would I would pay to watch you do that longer. No, I'm not arguing for more dragons. I'm saying that House of the Dragons season 3, despite being functionally better than season 2 in many, many ways and much more professionalized and capable of higher highs and honestly a higher floor as well.

[00:45:22]week to >> I think that it is suffering post of the seven kingdoms because >> oh this is like dropping Doomsday after the Odyssey.

[00:45:30]>> It's exact. Thank you. It's just more that like >> Night of the Seven Kingdoms almost casually introduced us to different archetypes, different arcs and different emotions that we did not know were possible in Westeros. And House of the Dragon is still saddled with storylines like I will teach the child to stab an innocent man in the heart that will show him the way of the world. And I feel like that is a lesson that we have all learned repeatedly over the last 15 years on television and otherwise. And so but that is what the show is. I mean that is the world that they're existing in. And I think it's trying to iterate honestly. Yeah. And in good faith. The last performance um you mentioned is Gail Rankin who is a really good actor from Perry Mason and from Glow and she's playing Alice, the witch queen of Harrenhal. And >> again, this might be like prior fandom.

[00:46:23]I just think she's a cool performer. But I she has a little bit of twinkle in her eye. like she does have some wit when all these people keep coming to attack her and she's lying to them. That suggests >> some life or some plan.

[00:46:38]>> When the last group of raiders come, I think she kind of lets herself get taken captive to like >> entice Aean to regain his spirit. You know, sometimes I'll be like, "Oh, I don't know what to say about this."

[00:46:52]>> And then you jump in and I'm like, "That's right."

[00:46:54]>> Because I say I like to save my friend.

[00:46:55]It's like that human was it the human giant sketch about like the the most successful moving company in New York where like to move the piano they put a child underneath it and then the mother shows up AND GOES MY CHILD and lifts [laughter] the piano >> because there's no strength greater than a child in peril. That's what's going on here.

[00:47:12]>> Just real quick, that's a Lannister that shows up with Aegon.

[00:47:16]>> Yes.

[00:47:17]>> And that's the Lannister who was on the boat.

[00:47:19]>> Yeah. It's uh Thailand or Jason, I can't remember which one. One got their head cut off, so he's definitively dead. We are getting into a dangerous uh period with this show where if they don't show you the body, it probably means the guy's still alive. And they've done that twice this season.

[00:47:34]>> Cor they did with a >> coral and once with this guy. Yeah.

[00:47:37]>> Yeah.

[00:47:38]>> You want habius Corpus?

[00:47:40]>> I I'm I'm just saying like this is why the Stannis freaks from Game of Thrones still are among us where they're just like we never saw it, brother.

[00:47:47]>> So this is actually this came up [laughter] this came up the other week. We were texting this uh the Stannis Melisandre stuff is so interesting in retrospect because we and I say we like the audience of Game of Thrones spent so much time with those characters and in the new parlance of television which is really about return on investment it's like well what was that for?

[00:48:16]>> What was the point? And it's such an interesting and more contemporary framing that just invalidates 40 50 years of television.

[00:48:25]>> Sure.

[00:48:25]>> Um, now you could make the case, I don't actually know this, but like I I think that the Stannis story was already ended in the books when they were telling it on screen.

[00:48:36]>> So people were like, "Oh, I can't wait to see like how >> we know that he's not a real >> contender version of what I've been."

[00:48:42]Yes. So, but we also still enjoy the the the time spent on >> like Red Wedding and >> and Steven Delane was really good in that part, but like the Melisandre thing was still questionable and then she shows up later.

[00:48:53]>> She because there was like the woman that never popped up in the show that was supposed to be maybe Caitlyn Stark.

[00:48:58]Oh, no.

[00:48:58]>> Oh, Lady Stoneheart.

[00:48:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's not Melisandre.

[00:49:01]>> Can I say though that like in retrospect my favorite thing of our We had a real rich Thrones adventure. We were on television. We were talking about it and still every time Jason or Mallerie would be like, "Well, you know, they're not doing Lady Stoneheart." I'd be like, >> "Can you just talk me through that again?" And they're like, >> there's a It's not Lady Stoneheart level, but Nettles is supposed to be, you know, is is in fire and blood.

[00:49:23]>> Did you say you know? I do not. Yeah, >> sir. Who Who is Nettles?

[00:49:26]>> Nettles is basically being folded into Raina's storyline, I believe.

[00:49:32]>> But who is?

[00:49:32]>> It's just another character who's like a dragon rider.

[00:49:35]>> Greg Nettles.

[00:49:35]>> Yeah.

[00:49:35]>> Is it a picture?

[00:49:36]>> Craig. Craig. Yeah. Craig >> N. I think he was a utility infielder.

[00:49:41]>> Yeah.

[00:49:41]>> Like a kind of Jose Oendo type.

[00:49:43]>> I like we both closed our computers. No way of knowing. But um No, but like the Lady Stoneheart thing where I'd be like, "Oh my god, I'm still shaken up by The Red Wedding." Like that was one of the most intense things ever on television.

[00:49:55]>> And they're like, "Well, you know, Caitlyn comes back." Like maybe it's good to do an adaptation and cherrypick a little bit. But but anyway, my you get what I'm saying in terms of our conversation about House of the Dragon because it is a history quote unquote because it is um being made now. There isn't room for these little narrative. I don't even call them flights of fancy, but it's like little exploratory runs.

[00:50:22]You know what do they say when watching the World Cup? They're like, "Oh, a lovely little questioning run on the left." why the Aegon and Lara storyline is so um pleasant to watch because it has so many Thrones echoes because it feels like Brienne on the road with Jamie or whatever, you know, >> but it also feels again I could be very much mistaken about this and please you won't spoil it, I know, but like it does not feel connected in a way that it feels like it is moving in some towards something unexpected or new.

[00:50:50]>> Yeah. um that's probably not the case.

[00:50:52]But I do just generally that's probably one of the causes of my lingering allergy to the show is that I just you just don't feel that spark of like people discovering something as writers or performers or whatever. It's it's more claustrophobic.

[00:51:05]>> So we got three more.

[00:51:06]>> Yeah.

[00:51:06]>> Yeah. Which is which is feels like it's it's it's really a rich vein for us. Do you want to talk about the prisoner?

[00:51:12]>> Yeah. Set set this I I I love it. I love it when a 4pm text comes with some good good ideas.

[00:51:18]>> Yeah. Uh, so The Prisoner is a show from 1967 and 1968, uh, from England that has been a little bit of like a a cult classic in the TV world for decades.

[00:51:32]It's popped up here and there on physical media. There's some like a UK DVD. There's a Blu-ray. There was a box set. I think Arrow might have done it.

[00:51:40]It's just one of those shows that if if we were a proper country, we would probably be able to create a criterion channel for television. And maybe that's a project you and I can do on some late summer dead week is like what would we put in like our first 10 or 15 or 20 shows? And it's not always the best, but it, you know, these Criterion does these uh physical media releases for films and obviously gives the films like a kind of unified aesthetic in terms of their graphic design. And now it's become this kind of almost like this label or brand that people are like, I I blind by the thing on criterion because it means film excellence. It means >> like true exploration of like what's great about the cinematic arts. And we don't really have that for television.

[00:52:25]And a lot of that is because television has largely been uh a function of selling advertising over the years and there's all these complicated rights issues and it's like a studio made it but sold it to a network that then offloaded it to this other network or streamer and this is why we wait around decades for Homicide to show up on streaming or My Soul Called Life still isn't on streaming, right? Like >> it's music rights too, >> right? It's music rights.

[00:52:48]>> So the show The Prisoner is a little bit different than say Homicide or My Soul Called Life. Um, it's more of a I would say acquired taste. It's also a cult classic, you know, and it is hugely influential. It's a 17 episode run, I believe, of two seasons, two series.

[00:53:04]>> Um, it was created by Patrick series.

[00:53:07]>> One series. So, 17 episodes, one series.

[00:53:09]Uh, Patrick Mcun who's uh the creator is also the star, and he worked with David Markstein, who I believe directed a lot of it.

[00:53:16]>> And it is essentially a sci-fi spy show.

[00:53:19]It's the easiest way I can describe it.

[00:53:21]and has been uh credited for having a huge influence on X-Files, on Twin Peaks, >> on The Truman Show, on Inception, and on The Matrix.

[00:53:34]>> I would throw another one in there after watching it last night, >> which is >> The Good Place.

[00:53:38]>> Yeah.

[00:53:38]>> Like intensely so.

[00:53:39]>> Intensely so. And uh I I think it's like just a really cool thing for people to check out. It was very funny. Last night I was watching a couple of episodes and I had initially sort of been like, "Do you to my wife I was like, do you want to watch this this show The Prisoner with me?" And she was like, "What's it about?" And I told her and she was like, "No, no thanks."

[00:53:58]>> She was like, "Why don't you invite Andy over to >> wind down with that one?"

[00:54:01]>> She heard it in the other room. And she was like, "Is this old timey?"

[00:54:05]>> And I was like, "No, it's old." Yeah.

[00:54:07]>> And she was like, "I thought it was new and they were doing old timey." And I was like, "No, I mean it's just the late60s." Like, is that old timey now, I guess?

[00:54:16]>> Yeah. Um, but the cutting style, the art direction, the music, it's very much of its time.

[00:54:23]>> Yes.

[00:54:24]>> But it's also, I mean, you can see Nolan editing patterns >> in The Prisoner. So, it stands to reason that Nolan has twice gotten pretty close to remaking it as a film, >> as has Ridley Scott. So, this is a really interesting show. The entire series is up on the Criterion channel if you have it. But I just thought we could talk a little bit about this as like a touchstone in modern television.

[00:54:50]>> It's also worth noting the show was remade in 2009 for AMC.

[00:54:53]>> Ian Mckllen, Jim >> Cavalisel um was not particularly well regarded.

[00:54:58]Um certainly not in in the shadow of its predecessor.

[00:55:02]>> Right.

[00:55:02]>> I was really thrilled to do this because as someone who grew up reading TV Guide for the Articles, this was a reference that dominated. Yeah, >> I don't I don't think it's possible to overstate how influential not even the show itself because it was hard to watch for a number of decades, but how influential the idea of the show was that it was a hallmark of any even half-assed article namechecking when the Times TV has been bold or interesting.

[00:55:32]And so when Twin Peaks came out at the end of the 80s and early 90s and I was obsessed with it, the prisoner was back in the conversation.

[00:55:38]>> Yeah. cuz Mark Frost was like, "There's no Twin Peaks without the prisoner," basically.

[00:55:42]>> But what's interesting, and I think that I'd seen clips maybe or had sought something out or maybe it was on PBS, but I definitely have never been able to sit down and watch it like I just did yesterday. And kudos to Criterion because it is on Criterion. It looks amazing.

[00:55:56]>> It looks fantastic.

[00:55:56]>> So, that's really exciting, too, to see it in the way that even better probably than it's ever been seen before. But it was very interesting to see something that is so deeply influential to artistically minded and aesthetically minded art and television in particular, but it is not a onetoone in any sense.

[00:56:14]There is nothing like because the Twin Peaks thing is it's David Lynch on television.

[00:56:19]>> But then the idea that there was even a small safe space on television for something that didn't feel right, you know, that felt off, that felt confusing, that didn't hold your hand.

[00:56:31]You owe that to the prisoner, I think, above above anything else.

[00:56:35]>> And the setup for the show is very very straightforward. In a brilliant pre-title sequence, >> which they replay, >> which is wordless, they a spy resigns from uh MI6 or whatever, and drives home to his place in Westminster >> in a very normal car, >> in a very spy car. And he goes into his flat and >> he's packing, right? is gassed and falls asleep and when he wakes up he is in a seaside village place unknown side of the iron curtain unknown side of reality unknown >> and in this village everything is accounted for it's a very good place like Andy mentioned like you know you go to the labor exchange and you get a job and you go do these things and there's like a kind of political class and there's senior citizens are taken care of there >> little cafe and beaches >> everybody's wearing these sort of uh brightly colored >> um like kind of very ge geometric um patterned uh capes and cloaks and stuff and frocks.

[00:57:38]>> But you know obviously this rough and tumble spy is like where am I? What's going on? Who's in charge here? How do I get out of here?

[00:57:45]And [snorts] uh I'll just say in the first episode you are introduced to the idea that not only is there constant surveillance and a lot of subtrauge going on in this village, but a uh blobby white balloon floats over the village and is capable of sucking people into it and killing them as >> That was the part that engaged my nine-year-old the most.

[00:58:06]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:58:06]>> The the horror balloon. Yeah.

[00:58:08]>> And grown men running from balloons.

[00:58:11]>> Yes.

[00:58:11]>> I think she liked that. Um, but you know, there's parts of it that are cut and feel like, I don't know, like late60s mod culture films. You know, >> it the other thing that I would say that you should watch just for reference is Austin Powers.

[00:58:26]>> Sure.

[00:58:26]>> Because there's there's something of that too.

[00:58:28]>> Very very very very influenced I think probably by this >> Patrick McD's performance especially in the first one too where he just like just yells at everyone.

[00:58:36]>> Yeah. And it so the other interesting thing about it is um you know it is intentionally surreal and the surreality is both aesthetic and cultural like for the like mad carnaby street vibes but also very much about like surveillance and who do you work for and who sent you and what is truth and what do I owe and things that happen in the first few episodes that probably don't register as much to us in like a post Google translate society but like someone speaks French and then someone responds in German and it's like where where do your allegiances lie? Who is responsible for this? Um, which is much more cold war uh coded. But the other thing that I found really interesting is there is no this is this is when it gets into like James Joyce territory. Did you know that there is no agreed upon order to watch this series?

[00:59:22]>> So the second episode, the one that aired second, the one that Criterion calls episode two, it's called The Chimes of Big Ben, was the fifth produced episode. And instantly when you watch it, you are once again um discomforted and like unclear about what's going on for reasons that are intentional. Like that's the vibe of the show. And one of the conceits of the show is that our main character, number six, is uh being bossed around and surveiled by the person who is nominally in charge, number two. Yeah. There is no number one.

[00:59:54]>> Number two just says like you could make this all go away if you told me why you resigned. But in all 17 episodes, number two is played by a different guest star.

[01:00:03]Yes.

[01:00:03]>> So number two is always different. So you you would you can be forgiven if you're like a little bit confused, but then you keep watching episode two and Patrick McGuan's number six has a completely different personality than he did in the first episode. He's much funnier and he's much more charming and he's much more willing to sort of play along. Honestly, more like a spy and it makes it a more pleasant watch.

[01:00:26]>> But it's also like is this the fifth episode of the second? What is time? And is that on purpose? So there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole.

[01:00:35]>> Yeah. And I think it's a different era of making television where they maybe maybe they got a note that was like this guy needs to be nicer, you know, like this [laughter] guy.

[01:00:44]>> And because of that and and not just a note, it's of an era when BBC or whoever put it I think it was um BBC broadcast it >> because I don't think there were any other channels.

[01:00:53]>> Yeah.

[01:00:53]>> Was like we're going to put this one on next.

[01:00:55]>> Sure.

[01:00:56]>> Because that's what we're going to do.

[01:00:58]But um it is here's the thing that I really like liked the most about it and I wish that there I wish that you could take this piece and injected into contemporary television.

[01:01:12]I have no idea. I've not done the deep research. I've not watched the whole series. I have no idea if Patrick McGuan and his collaborators launched the series knowing quote unquote the answers. if they had a plan, you know, like just like the the vocabulary that sprung up around lost. What I do know is that there is such a swinging sense of fun and discovery and gamesmanship in a playful way, not like in an aggressive I'm going to frustrate Reddit way that is so welcome. Yeah.

[01:01:40]>> And one of the reasons I think that exists is because of the way that it's shot and scored. Because contemporary television is so dependent on in the same way movies are I think as well of like having the way that you film it, cut it and most importantly score it indicate heavy importance >> like this is ominous now. Well, there's also like a real emphasis in television, I think, on coverage and making sure like you got that shot, that shot, that shot. And that way also if they want to meddle with it or if there's a supervising producer or whatever, they can go in and do their cut of the show.

[01:02:16]>> Whereas there, especially in this first episode, like I can't imagine there was that much coverage because everything is this like high angled shot through like Welsh village, >> you know what I mean? So it's just very it's a very disorienting and pleasantly disorienting show.

[01:02:31]>> Apologies to our friends in England. It was not BBC. It was ITV.

[01:02:35]>> Oh, I didn't know they were around in the late >> 60s. A little bit independent. But the >> But do you know what I mean though? The sense that like one of one of the things that contemporary shows do and there's a reason why you do it is like you want to give people enough rope to keep climbing. So you want them to know that they have a plan, that there's something to be revealed. But there's a playfulness. This this does actually segue from our House of the Dragon conversation that there is a playfulness possible in discovery that that for all the things the show does, and I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's like linear or like a good hang all the time, but there is a sense of playfulness that is kind of infectious if you can get into it. Like you don't need to be doing your homework necessarily. Um, you just kind of have to go with it. And that's not a bad feeling to have with TV. It is not so common anymore. before we get out of here.

[01:03:21]>> Can we do it? Can we talk about it?

[01:03:23]>> So, let's talk about Rachel Kusk.

[01:03:25]>> I have been waiting for an hour of this nonsense.

[01:03:27]>> Did you Did you know that we were gonna talk about this today?

[01:03:30]>> No, but I'm thrilled.

[01:03:31]>> This is a cool story. Anyway, >> so great.

[01:03:33]>> Okay, so there is a new Rachel Cusp book. Uh, what's it called? Portrait of M.

[01:03:39]>> Life of M.

[01:03:39]>> Life of M.

[01:03:40]>> Should [clears throat] we Can I Can I Can we set up Rachel Kusk a little bit?

[01:03:43]>> Yeah, I think we better.

[01:03:44]>> Should we? Rachel [laughter] Kusk is a very culty British novelist.

[01:03:48]>> Kai, have you read these books? Do we talk about this? I have not. No.

[01:03:51]>> Okay. I feel like we've asked you this before. I apologize. She's kind of known.

[01:03:54]>> Have you read any Rachel Kushner?

[01:03:56]>> I love Rachel Kushner.

[01:03:58]>> That's why she's still here.

[01:04:00]>> You know what?

[01:04:00]>> That's why she sticks around is cuz she and I know there's room for life.

[01:04:04]>> Kai and Sarah was too dark for me. I had >> Kai and Sarah are a big outline trilogy.

[01:04:08]They just don't want to talk about it.

[01:04:10]Um she she has sort of risen to a a certain kind of prominence for her incredibly chilly reported autofiction books.

[01:04:20]>> Yes.

[01:04:20]>> Um her books are a vibe. Her books are uh an experience. her this trilogy that starts with outline basically follow her just like going to literary conferences and just sort of talking to people who like Greek men who take her out on their boats to tell them about their failed sons, you know, and she's just like then she talked about her what a [ __ ] her ex-husband is [laughter] and you're like more more. So, I know I'm selling it, but they are so they're such a vibe.

[01:04:50]Like there's an entire book that I read about how she and her then husband took their kids out of school to like live in Italy for a year and then they go to like a bunch of like they go to look at fresco and abbies and she's like everything sucks.

[01:05:03]>> It's [laughter] great. [gasps] Can't sell it enough.

[01:05:05]>> Wonder if I heard that kind of attitude before.

[01:05:07]>> I can't imagine why. But what's incredible then is this is the this was reported this week is that her she has a she has many fans you know including Natalie Portman >> including Natalie Portman who part of her Natalie Portman's public facing brand is like lifting up novelists and she likes books and who among us you Jezelnik all the greats do it >> and the implication here is that Natalie Portman was like let's hang out or like write about me. Yeah, I can't really get. So, the reason why this is a little bit murky is because apparently there are gallies of this book which is a according to one one article in a on a site called Unheard.

[01:05:48]>> Mhm.

[01:05:48]>> And then aggregated by the usual trades is an unflattering portrait of Natalie Portman.

[01:05:54]>> Who could have guessed?

[01:05:55]>> Yeah.

[01:05:56]>> And there are galleys of this book and there is an embargo on the reviews I suppose. So, it's like a very strange like social media discourse about it where people are like, "Ah, I see like this site decided to break the embargo, but I will save my opinions for when like the real time comes."

[01:06:15]>> Yes.

[01:06:16]>> But it I'm unclear as to whether Natalie Portman basically was like, >> "Yes, you can embed with me." or if this is just about their >> on again offagain relationship >> because they both live in Paris now >> and they both have this sort of mutual appreciation for each other or did until Rachel Kusk wrote what is apparently an unflattering novel about her but I got to say something man >> say it >> shout out to Natalie Portman >> okay >> because >> okay >> this is why they don't [ __ ] talk to us anymore this is why celebrities are like sure I'll make a pizza but you can't spend more than 12 minutes with me you know because they don't want to be observed. They don't want their weird [ __ ] broadcast out into the world. So, they want to get asked what their letter box four favorites are and then they keep it moving, you know, and like >> and and and when you see any life in them and everybody's just like, "Wow, AN IGUANA, YOU KNOW, like this is like how they get treated." So, for her to be like, "hm, what what where can we go here with this relationship? Why don't I have this like absolutely scalpel sharp >> mean writer hang out with me and then write a novel about me is [ __ ] cool.

[01:07:25]Like it may not work out well for her, but I admire her her doing this.

[01:07:29]>> What's incredible is the analogy.

[01:07:31]>> It's very French that she did this.

[01:07:32]>> It's very French. The analogy that I was thinking is like if I was a big fan of like in cooking like Woff knives, I'm like I love cooking with these knives. I really enjoy them. It's a good product that does what it's supposed to do and they're a part of my life every day.

[01:07:47]That step from that to being like, I wonder what it would be like to cut myself with these knives.

[01:07:52]>> Yeah.

[01:07:52]>> Is a bridge too far.

[01:07:53]>> Well, it would also just be like any anything that we like and you watch I like watching Lioness. I I don't want anything that happens in [laughter] that show to happen to me.

[01:08:06]>> I know. You know, >> like I I will say appropo of the early the jokes you were making, like when you texted me this, my brain autocorrected Kushner. I thought it was Rachel Kushner and then I was shocked because Rachel Rachel Kushner from all of her public I mean her books are quite in, you know, intellectual and and can be tough, but like every interview she's just like, "Kim Gordon and I went to get tacos in Echo Park and it was sick."

[01:08:33]>> Yeah.

[01:08:33]>> I feel like she would be a really cool hang. Yeah, Rachel Kushner is welcome to write a book about me.

[01:08:39]>> I think I think it would be great.

[01:08:41][laughter] >> Do you think which mode [snorts] would she use? The women in prison mode or the like spy woman going to investigate caves and Bordeaux mode? Like which which are you?

[01:08:51]>> Can't possibly comment at this time. Um this is just an exciting development.

[01:08:56]We'll be tracking it as as uh as maybe more official reviews come out. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out that it's like this was misinterpreted and it's not actually about Natalie Portman, whatever. It's about >> I just think of all the writers on earth and you know we we just didn't know >> of all the writers on earth there is no writer alive that I would trust more to turn directly to camera and say no it's about that [ __ ] >> like that is the one you want. Also, let me just say kudos to us because I do get a sense sometimes that there is like within our family of podcasts like we do tend to cover some similar things like I imagine the doomsday trailer will filter its way through Midnight Boys and Big Pic and you know >> House of everybody. Yeah.

[01:09:41]>> This is where you come for the discourse about Rachel Kusk about Jill >> may disagree. They are well- read literary figures, but I feel like I I just feel like we are carving out a very specific lane for ourselves to enjoy and sometimes Kaya where we can really >> seen you this activated and animated in such a long time.

[01:10:03]>> This is the most interesting story of the dragon.

[01:10:05]>> This is the most interesting story of the week.

[01:10:07]>> Um, thank you to Ka Kai and Sarah for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday.

[01:10:12]>> We got to get to the agency and it's really just more about finishing it.

[01:10:15]>> I I'm sorry. I was third place matches to watch, you know, it just came it just came up.

[01:10:20]>> I wanted to be done for today, but but I think we did a good show either way.

[01:10:23]>> I think we did a good show and also we did a we did a good World Cup, [music] so I think it's okay.

[01:10:28]>> See you guys on Thursday.