"Unleashed" (w/ Dr. Orna Guralnik feat. Nico) | Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]Look, Matt. Oh, I see my eye. Oh my. Oh, and look over there. Is that the culture? Yes. Goodness. Wow.

[00:00:08]Culturistas.

[00:00:10]>> Ding dong. Lost culturistas calling.

[00:00:13]We're sort of doing that indulit tones because we have not just one visitor, but two.

[00:00:17]>> We're doubly starruck. I I don't even really remember my sort of exclamatory sound that I made when I saw Nico showing up.

[00:00:26]>> Nico's here, >> guys. Nico's here. I was, I can't believe this is real. And just like mom, even more striking in person, a style icon in her own right, >> a curiosity icon, much like her mother and the room, >> extremely comfortable with us. We were saying Nico is on the couch with me and Bowen. We do have a pink bed here that Nico could use at any time. However, it feels like she's chosen a spot, and I couldn't be happier.

[00:00:54]>> I'm very happy with the spot. She's She can opt out of it anytime she chooses.

[00:00:57]I'm just letting her know in English in case she can understand.

[00:01:00]>> She understands.

[00:01:01]>> She understands. She's so smart.

[00:01:03]>> I will say also um this is giving me comfort and I don't know if it's giving you comfort extra because it is incredibly hard not to sit across from our guest sitting next to someone you're very close to and not feel like you're in couples therapy. Uh which you know rings true being that that is the name of the show. It's streaming now. It's our favorite show. Was I the one that showed it to you?

[00:01:22]>> You saw me on it and then and I thank God every day for you.

[00:01:26]>> Yeah. And I was watching with our friend Matt Whitaker. I was watching the screeners for this season five. And he mutters under his breath.

[00:01:35]>> Professional TV writer, watches everything. He goes, "This is my favorite show on TV."

[00:01:39]>> It is. I got Bowen into couples therapy.

[00:01:42]He took it to London. And then the whole Wicked cast was like, "We got to talk about Dr. and what she's capable of."

[00:01:48]>> Um, >> it's it's huge. I mean, this this is this is really big for us. She I guess we had some material effect on her life >> and we and and we and we asked her to repeat this anecdote.

[00:02:00]>> Yeah.

[00:02:01]>> Because we're proud of this. She is our style icon lost cult award winner from last year >> and it's borne fruit in the real fashion world.

[00:02:09]>> Truly. And I'm excited to hear more. But anyway, Couple Therapy new season May 15th >> streaming now.

[00:02:15]>> Streaming now. Oh yes, it's out. Yeah.

[00:02:17]>> And we're so thrilled.

[00:02:20]>> She asked for a pen and paper. We were like, why?

[00:02:23]>> Uh-oh.

[00:02:24]>> But actually, but then but then now I'm like, well, if it happens, it happens.

[00:02:27]But we don't want to put her on the spot. Everyone, welcome.

[00:02:30]>> Dr. Oruronic.

[00:02:33]>> We are so happy you're here.

[00:02:35]>> Thank you for inviting me.

[00:02:36]>> And Nico, >> I'm thrilled.

[00:02:38]>> And Nico, is she she you don't have any anxiety of having her off the leash >> in this space?

[00:02:46]>> We'll talk about that later.

[00:02:48]>> Oh, your own anxieties.

[00:02:50]>> No, no, no. I have no anxiety of having her off the leash. Other people have anxiety about having her leashing any like people in production.

[00:02:58]>> Well, that was going to be my rant.

[00:02:59]>> Okay, we'll save it. We'll save it.

[00:03:00]We'll save it. We'll save it.

[00:03:02]>> I'm glad you're asking. That was the only rant I could think of.

[00:03:05]>> No, that's a great rant. That's a really good rant.

[00:03:07]>> Okay.

[00:03:08]>> Now, what kinds of garments are you receiving? And can you can you explain to the class what your what your your new life is?

[00:03:15]>> You guys have changed my life because you've declared me a fashion icon. And since then, I've been invited to fashion shows. First time ever.

[00:03:23]>> Did you go?

[00:03:24]>> I went. It was incredible. Yeah.

[00:03:26]>> Went to like um Calvin Chanel. I mean, >> incredible.

[00:03:31]>> These are nights that we don't get.

[00:03:33]>> No, Chanel. The one in the >> Subway. Oh, I did go to that one. That was a really fun one.

[00:03:39]>> God, that was amazing. Yeah, that was amazing. And I get clothes from all these designers now and I'm like, "Thank you. You've changed my life." Honestly, well, I the thanks we could return right back because it is our favorite show. I find it's more compelling every season and we were actually talking um right before you came in and then resumed the conversation with you. Just this season is so compelling and right off the bat, one of the things that you pulled out of the couple who disagrees politically, their names are >> Jason and Marjorie. Marjorie, um you just flat out said like you don't know what each other cares about, >> right?

[00:04:16]>> And then you were saying every time that's always a common thread.

[00:04:20]>> We're not actually asking.

[00:04:21]>> I mean, Marjgerie and Jason say that they argue all day long about politics, >> right?

[00:04:27]>> I mean, long marriage >> and then you ask each of them, "What does the other one care about?

[00:04:34]>> What are their actual opinions?" And they're like, they grow blank. They're like, "Um, not sure."

[00:04:40]>> So, after that, is is this the inflection point for you to say, "You guys need to work on listening because you're not listening to each other." Got it.

[00:04:48]>> Yeah.

[00:04:48]>> You needed that piece first. You needed to confirm that they were arguing all day, but not internalizing anything the other person was saying.

[00:04:54]>> And I had it right in front of me. I was like, "Okay, start the argument. Let's listen."

[00:04:59]>> And then I asked each of them like, "What did the other ones say? And what do you know about their opinions?"

[00:05:03]>> And they were like, "They drew a blank."

[00:05:06]>> Wow. I mean I mean that's the thing about if you listen to a lot of political arguments people are just like sitting there and building their own argument while the other person is talking.

[00:05:16]>> Yes. And was there some hedging around the sort of producing of the show on whether or not to have an example of such a a marriage or a relationship on the show because I feel >> we wanted that. We wanted that. We still want that. I mean that's I mean obviously that's a very important topic nowadays.

[00:05:33]>> Yes. And it was like really important for us to have this kind of couple. We were actually seeking that kind of couple.

[00:05:40]>> Yeah.

[00:05:41]>> Because it's true that the couples have to sort of uh basically uh and I might be wrong on this, but the couples sort of do have to clear quote unquote a certain kind of emotional intelligence or like a threshold quotient.

[00:05:57]>> Yeah. And so it it's it's hard for it's hard to get anyone to really sit down and sort of go through that process, but I feel like there's an extra layer of refraction to have someone two people who disagree politically but are married and who both mutually want this kind of therapy.

[00:06:14]>> Yeah, there weren't that many. That's true. This is the crazy thing that I observe in couples, especially over the past few years, where there is a political difference, and I find that they're like, "Well, we just don't talk about it."

[00:06:29]>> And it's just and and I've discovered that again and again. Maybe I'm seeing it through a certain lens cuz I'm a a gay man who over externalizes and a lot of my friends also are very emotional and externalize a lot. But people who are in relationships, I find it with a lot of straight couples who are like, I just don't talk to my spouse about this.

[00:06:49]That is so wild to me. And I wonder if the therapy is now giving them an occasion to actually talk about it and not just argue about it.

[00:06:58]>> Well, the thing is, I mean, people reach a point where they don't talk about it.

[00:07:03]They start talking about it. Then they get into like really intense disagreements >> and, you know, people just like generate their own world of facts. each in their own bubble. Yeah.

[00:07:13]>> And there's nowhere to go with it. But um >> I don't really understand the business of like not talking about politics because like everything we do has politics like saturated all over our smallest choices.

[00:07:28]>> So >> even couples that don't talk about politics, they're constantly talking about politics.

[00:07:34]>> They're I mean I always talk about a couple as like a mini political system.

[00:07:38]>> Yeah. They're they're negotiating differences all the time, >> right?

[00:07:42]>> And one of them, if they're if one of them is more kind of, let's say, right-wing, they're going to go for more domination and power solutions to difference. And someone who's more liberal is going to be more inclined to like think about multiple perspectives and they're going to be negotiating those differences between them even if they never talk about like Trump.

[00:08:01]>> Sure.

[00:08:02]>> Right. It was just >> So, they're always talking politics.

[00:08:04]>> They They are.

[00:08:05]>> Yeah. And it was just surprising how quickly they I mean I'm sure editing had to do with it but I'm it was surprising how quickly they both locked into listening because you prompted them to do that and I think there there was like almost some immediate progress there where they both they both realized oh I guess we don't know >> what the other person cares about.

[00:08:24]>> Yeah. Although I mean I love them. They're a great couple and the work was incredible with them. I mean they were just like so delightful to work with. I did have kind of a hope that we're going to I knew in advance that they have like political differences.

[00:08:38]>> Yeah.

[00:08:39]>> And I wanted one of the results of my work with them. That was my own personal selfish wish for them to align more on politics.

[00:08:50]>> Right.

[00:08:51]>> And that did not happen. I mean, a little bit of that happened, but that did not happen. They got better at talking, but I thought there would be some conversion there >> cuz do you feel like that's I mean it's obviously better than how they came into the into the care >> into the therapy. But >> it's at least it's something but like are the politics just going to encroach on on whatever like progress they've made? I don't I guess that's cuz you just there is it's sort of clinically the best thing and sort of on a production level the best thing for you to not really keep in touch with them after after it's done, right?

[00:09:31]>> We I mean I see just be I'm going to see all of the couples. We're we're about to sit down with them just before it airs >> and just prepare them for what's coming.

[00:09:41]So I'm going to see them.

[00:09:42]>> Yes.

[00:09:42]>> Um >> individually just couple to couple.

[00:09:44]>> Just a couple. Yeah.

[00:09:45]>> Yeah. I do feel like there is this >> and with some couples I do keep in touch a little bit.

[00:09:50]>> Okay.

[00:09:51]>> Yeah.

[00:09:51]>> Interesting.

[00:09:52]>> Yeah.

[00:09:53]>> Certain couples I feel like are not received well >> by the audience.

[00:09:58]>> By the audience.

[00:09:59]>> And what are you thinking?

[00:10:00]>> I'm think I I can name examples, but maybe that's >> I feel like um Oh, a first season. Um what's what's his >> Oh, everyone liked to attack Mao. Yeah.

[00:10:13]>> Yeah. Like and poor Mao. Like >> I know. This is just a learning experience for us.

[00:10:18]>> Sure. And like what we're cuz I feel like the show is very preserved from the first it's it's been so consistent >> the choices and just stylistically and and and the way that the the story are told has been so consistent. But I feel like with someone like Mau as a first example of like oh the audience has strong feelings about these dynamics and these people like what were the learnings?

[00:10:44]Well, one thing to say before even the learnings is that um I think one of the good things about the show that we've heard repeatedly every season is that seasons begin and people love to create a certain kind of scapegoat.

[00:10:59]>> They love to like hate on someone and decide who's bad >> and who are they siding with >> and by the end of the season they're like, "Oh, actually I developed empa empathy for everyone." Mhm.

[00:11:11]>> So that's like actually an incredible journey for the audience that that's sort of what we're after.

[00:11:17]>> Um I think it didn't go that well the first season with Mao.

[00:11:22]>> Yes.

[00:11:23]>> For a few different reasons. I think first of all the editing sort of the way he was portrayed. I think we didn't get into certain we didn't have them for long enough.

[00:11:34]They didn't stay for the whole >> um length of the treatment. They left at some point. So, we didn't have enough and I think what we focused on in terms of what was shown to the audience didn't show enough of the subtleties of who he is.

[00:11:50]>> Mhm.

[00:11:51]>> Um, and I think we learned from that.

[00:11:54]>> I remember thinking that I actually remember thinking watching it and being like he is I understand him as being unappealing because of his stubbornness in this situation, but I was like there's also something funny and attractive about him. You know what I mean?

[00:12:07]>> Makes so much sense in his own world.

[00:12:09]Yeah. He just speaks deeply from his own world.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah.

[00:12:12]>> And you have to be willing to go into his world for Mao to make sense.

[00:12:17]>> Of course.

[00:12:18]>> And ultimately couples therapy is this dialectic thing where two opposing things build into something greater than the sum of like the two things, right?

[00:12:28]Is and like this is why this is your specialty because one-on-one therapy is >> No, I do plenty of one-on-one. I'm an analyst. You're an analyst, but but that is the special thing about couples therapy that >> totally >> and and you I mean and do you find yourself having to tell a lot of people I also do one-on-one or Yes. Right.

[00:12:50]>> And so I think >> but you that's exactly the difference between coup's work and individual work and it is what I love about couples work that you have to like hold multiple perspectives at the same time.

[00:13:00]>> It's a perfect show for me to put my phone down. You know how there's like show like Netflix has shows where it's like they they understand that the audience is on their phones, >> but I feel like couples therapy is the rare show where it's like you you have to pay attention like >> it's like it's it >> it's like it's as if there were subtitles that you had to read, but there aren't.

[00:13:17]>> You can turn them on, >> but you know, you have to pay attention.

[00:13:21]You have to lock into this the way that like you are and the way that the couples are because I feel like they are they've opted in just as much.

[00:13:27]>> Yeah.

[00:13:28]What is was your experience when someone approached you about bringing therapy to television? Because I always wonder what >> that thought process. Yeah. Like like >> what the hell? Not only just but for the people having therapy like going through it but also you facilitating it like the checkpoints you must have had to go through that not only every person but every you know >> professional in that is in your field is going to also have >> eyes on it.

[00:14:02]>> Um well when I talked with Josh and Elise the the creators of the show when I talked with them originally I wasn't thinking of participating as a therapist. I was just listening to their ideas and like I thought I want to consult to them. I have a like a background in film and I thought I just want to make sure they don't make another sleazy show about like a narcissistic therapist, >> right?

[00:14:26]>> Um and we started talking and they I mean they're amazing people. They're I just love talking to them and it was clear that they have like a real >> like dignified idea of what they want the show to look like. They really wanted to be about real therapy in depth. Take the time.

[00:14:45]>> Um, and then they started convincing me like, "Why don't you try?"

[00:14:49]>> And first I was like, "That's ridiculous." Like, "I don't know how to be in front of a camera." Like, >> they were like, "Yeah, you do."

[00:14:57]>> No, I didn't really. I didn't.

[00:14:58]>> Well, they saw it.

[00:14:59]>> I guess they did. But they're also verite. They're they're documentary filmmakers. They're like, "That's not the point."

[00:15:05]>> Right. But what was your film background that you were saying?

[00:15:07]>> I studied film. So then so then you you just understand how the sausage gets >> and I'm interested in in the medium of film. It's I think it's a very powerful medium.

[00:15:17]>> I mean especially in this culture it's like you can do a lot with good film.

[00:15:21]>> Mhm.

[00:15:22]>> Um and with good docs. So yeah, but then they put the cameras in the room and I was like, "Oh, actually we do what we do even when there's a camera there and even if I'm nervous, I I know how to do this and doesn't really make a big difference." And then you put someone in front of me and we start talking about their issues and they're also getting absorbed in it >> and I guess we can do it.

[00:15:48]>> It made me excited to be in therapy.

[00:15:51]>> Cool.

[00:15:51]>> It really did. And I think it does that for a lot of people originally. I I wonder if this is one of the things that you were tipping to when you were saying like the narcissistic therapist, but the show in treatment.

[00:16:02]>> Um, is that what you mean? Like the sort of sensationalized?

[00:16:05]>> It was sensationalized, but that wasn't the worst. I mean, there are plenty of shows that are like that portray therapists as either like >> falling asleep on their patients or wanting to sleep with their patients, sleeping with their patients, or just absorbed in their own [ __ ] I mean, >> it's like people love to project like the worst nightmare on their therapist.

[00:16:24]And of course, they're bad therapists, but most people are >> decent. They actually want to listen to their patients and they go into the profession not because they're narcissists.

[00:16:33]>> There are plenty of other professions, >> but there's a bias towards the narcissists because it's because the medium is film or television or whatever.

[00:16:41]>> It's a spotlight. I think people there's so much you know the word transference there's so much projection onto therapists of everything like all the ways in which your parents have failed you or what you want from the caretaker and and all the fear of how they're going to fail you again and that's what TV kind of grabs on to or that's what film grabs on to those fears. Mhm. It's >> that's interesting because I think the way you work around that is by talking to Virginia, Dr. Virginia Golder, and you talked to the peer group, which by the way, >> my old writing the essay teacher.

[00:17:18]>> Stop.

[00:17:19]>> Noir als.

[00:17:20]>> Oh, >> and she wrote an amazing book on laughter, on the difference between non-douch laughter and duchon laughter.

[00:17:26]You want to know the difference? What is it? Animal joy.

[00:17:28]>> Animal joy. Amazing book. It's It's actually like for comedy. I think comedy people should read this book. I'm like I don't I'm surprised that it's not like circulated more among comedians, >> but um uh she it's it's a whole thing about uh nondition laughter which is voluntary laughter like hah like you're you're you're laughing as a way to like move the conversation along just just it's it's it's rail it's guy it's like it's the guide rails >> um guardrails for a conversation to just move along. How a little joke about the weather.

[00:17:55]>> Duchenne laughter is open mouth involuntary corpsing laughter.

[00:18:00]Something's gone terribly wrong. Haha.

[00:18:03]Like nervous laughter or it's like joyful like oh my god that like like a break on SNL like I was even I was like oh like a break on SNL is actually just Duchen laughter but Noradier what a small world and I reached out to her I was like >> wait but what she >> so all so all the all like the the grad students basically at NYU or like the adjunks whatever had to had and they hated this I'm sure but they had to teach all the NYU freshmen across all the schools had to take a one semester long class called writing the essay just writing an expositor essay about your life and she >> core curriculum >> core curriculum stuff. So like >> the tish kids in the acting school in the theater school had to take it. The chemistry majors had to take it. The business majors it was it was just the one core class that everyone had to take and she was my professor >> and I wrote a I don't even know what the [ __ ] I wrote but she read it and she gave me a a mediocre grade which I deserved.

[00:18:54]>> Okay. But she's amaz but I reached out to her. I was like oh my god it's so cool. You're so she's I think she's fantastic. But that's a great group.

[00:19:00]What do you what differences are you getting from each group or from from the group and Dr. Goldner?

[00:19:05]>> Um, Virginia is my original mentor. I mean, that's why I brought her on to the show. She really taught me the whole couples therapy thing.

[00:19:16]>> And >> I guess we get kind of deeper into like clinical nuances and explaining what's going on in the treatment. With a peer group, they're they're all my friends. I mean, they're really my colleagues.

[00:19:28]They're not like chosen for the show.

[00:19:30]They're really the people that I talk to about patients.

[00:19:34]>> And first of all, they're really interesting. They have very different perspectives on the work, each of them.

[00:19:40]>> And sitting with them, I feel like they're they're like helping me carry the load of doing this work. I mean, it's an intense thing to do. I mean, it's an intense thing to be an analyst, to be a therapist, but to be doing it for TV >> is like it's a lot of responsibility, like big time.

[00:20:00]>> And they're kind of carrying the emotional responsibility with me.

[00:20:05]>> Um, they're like my buddies and they're thinking with me and and it's it's very helpful.

[00:20:11]>> Yeah.

[00:20:11]>> And are they watching the the footage or the dailies?

[00:20:14]>> They watch not all of it, but they watch kind of select >> Sure. Yeah, >> because this season you talked to an autism and neurody divergence expert >> and the way she was commenting on Clinton, I was like, "Oh, she must be she must be privy to the footage at least to like understand >> his kind."

[00:20:32]>> Um, >> and so I I was always curious about it, but it didn't really click for me until this season, like five seasons in, where I was like, "Oh, I guess these these other people are are like in on the sessions, too, or or at least they get to watch >> they get edits.

[00:20:43]>> They get edits. I see."

[00:20:45]>> Yeah. we choose kind of what would be important to talk about, what I'm struggling with or >> Yeah.

[00:20:50]>> I mean, the thing about Clinton, yeah, he's neurode divergent and he does things like he's packaged in a slightly different way, but the emotions that he puts out there make sense very much so. They're very >> direct and he explains himself well.

[00:21:11]He's very verbal.

[00:21:13]Um they're just very raw.

[00:21:15]>> Yeah.

[00:21:15]>> But it's the same material that we're made of, right? It's just, you know, packaged a little differently. I mean, it was not hard. Actually really loved working with them. I I like working with all the people that stay, but it would be different in a relationship, I think.

[00:21:30]>> Right. Yes. as a therapist, you know, you have the the luxury of like coming in, spending some hours working on it, and then you go home and you're like dealing with your own people.

[00:21:42]>> Yeah.

[00:21:43]>> I think in a relationship it's different when someone is really different from you or or wired different. I mean, generally difference is difficult, but when people are >> kind of structurally different, it's hard. Well, I don't know if you've gotten to this part, but there's a moment where uh Sheay kind of tells you like, you know, I'm trying to like, you know, he's his diagnosis is relatively recent and he's letting all of this define everything about him, right?

[00:22:13]>> Or something along those lines. And then he says, >> it of course it defines everything about me. Your transness defines everything about you. And it kind of immediately clarified things for I think both of them and maybe for you where she kind of was she was just kind of like I think she took that in and she understood >> she took that in but as far as I remember I remember that session as far as I remember I don't know if it was in the edits but she then said to him actually no longer >> it used to but no longer >> I don't think that did I don't think I remember that. Yeah, maybe it wasn't in there, but but she it she did understand, >> but she was like, you know, I've been trans long enough that that is not no longer kind of the defining >> Sure.

[00:22:53]>> feature for me.

[00:22:54]>> And I think and you and you notice that right away where you're like, will you tell Virginia like, oh, the recency of the diagnosis is like kind of >> Yeah.

[00:23:04]>> that has that has a lot of texture here.

[00:23:06]I think like what you're saying is there's there's like um a misalignment or there just I guess he's not being understood in the way that he wants to be or she is maybe ahead of him in terms of personal development in a way in all these areas where she's making money for the two of them and >> she's lived independently for a long time and all these things and like I just think there are about a million different things in these people's lives across all your couples where You have to find your way into them even though you don't really have something firsthand to splatch onto. Right.

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[00:25:12]>> I thought you said it was proven by science.

[00:25:14]>> Never said that. I just said it was good.

[00:25:17]>> As I said earlier, it's when I said about the political system, couples are all about like figuring out how to deal with someone who's other than you.

[00:25:26]>> Mhm. It's so it's it's it's a little more extreme with Shay and Clinton, but it's just a little more extreme.

[00:25:34]>> Yeah. I think when you when you get into a relationship, too, you never get into or I've been surprised every time. I'm on my fourth boyfriend and they're all really different. If you lined them all up and said, "What do you have in common?" and it was that they dated the same person, your mind would be blown.

[00:25:52]But like, >> can I ask you and are you different in each relationship?

[00:25:57]That's a really interesting question. I think I provide I try to um you know I actually this is something I haven't really admitted out loud but sometimes I find myself giving the same wanting to give them the same like nicknames I gave another one and I go don't do that >> because I'm realizing that's me and the way I want to express myself but then I'm just like on an island by myself there for no reason.

[00:26:22]>> Right. And so, but but that was just like a really interesting thing. And I think like the thing about all four of them is all their complexes were so different. And you never would have expected I'm going to be in a relationship with someone that is that is dealing with this kind of thing. You just don't think when you're getting into something with someone or you're falling in love with someone Yeah.

[00:26:45]>> that you're going to meet that thing that that's what's going to show up like tying into it. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things I said about myself forever was like, I'm never going to be in like a distance relationship. And now I am.

[00:26:57]>> And I was like, and it's like just funny the things that you like the the places you find yourself and the challenges that you have and a lot of the things that I I find myself dealing with is like how exactly did I get here?

[00:27:11]>> Then you can deal with what it is. Yeah.

[00:27:13]>> You know, >> well, I'm I'm tempted to ask you questions.

[00:27:17]>> You can ask you questions. Well, did you like with let's say with these four people?

[00:27:22]>> Yeah.

[00:27:23]>> Did you somehow unconsciously kind of know something about them which is why you picked what you then found out later on?

[00:27:32]>> So, this is something funny. Every time I saw a picture of each one of them, >> I said that's my boyfriend.

[00:27:40]>> Oh.

[00:27:41]>> And I've been I was right every single time. I don't know if that means that I was like manifesting it or that I actually acted on it.

[00:27:48]>> You saw something that you needed and that something will show up. You spend enough time with the person then you realize what you saw in that picture.

[00:27:57]>> Mhm. Yeah.

[00:27:58]>> You saw something.

[00:28:00]>> Yeah. I >> It showed up a lot later.

[00:28:03]>> Yeah. There's something weird. It's like I It's like I'll I'll see the photo.

[00:28:07]It's happened to me four times in my life. I see the photo of the person and I'm like that's my boyfriend. I'm not sure how, but it is. And every single time it's it's proven to be true.

[00:28:16]>> And you can probably look back, if you really looked at what happened in the relationship, you can look back and say, "That's what I saw in this picture."

[00:28:24]>> I saw that quality.

[00:28:28]>> That's really interesting.

[00:28:30]>> But there are different strains or different qualities in all four.

[00:28:33]>> Yeah.

[00:28:34]>> Cuz you're changing and you're needing different things.

[00:28:37]>> Yeah. It's just It's just interesting.

[00:28:39]It's just like It's one of those things.

[00:28:40]And I do think a common thing about each one of them is in each picture they were each one of them was performing a little bit.

[00:28:47]>> You know what I mean? And maybe maybe I recognize that about it.

[00:28:50]>> Yeah.

[00:28:50]>> You know what I mean? Like one of our best friends Jared was we we dated a long time ago and he does this thing in pictures where he just looks a little tough, >> but he's like such a soft, cuddly, gooey guy who just wants to talk about like Olivia Rodrigo. Yeah.

[00:29:04]>> And but but in his pictures it's >> But you picked up on that kind of >> Yeah. Yeah, I think I saw humor in it, you know.

[00:29:11]>> Was that what was that what made you say that's my boyfriend though? Like what was the thing about I think I thought he was super hot and I thought like >> Yeah, but super hot is >> how things appear to us but we don't understand why.

[00:29:23]>> Like somebody will show me someone who's super hot to them and I'm like what?

[00:29:27]>> Yeah.

[00:29:28]>> But to them >> because it's it's tickling something that matters to them.

[00:29:34]>> Yeah, it's really interesting. Do you find that? I I've heard of this. I I' I've known about this thread uh where where where he's he's looked at a picture and he's gone, "That's my boyfriend." And I have other friends who also kind of have that same knee-jerk thing where they're like, "Well, that's my husband." And then they will end up getting married.

[00:29:52]>> Yeah.

[00:29:53]>> And what's your theory about that?

[00:29:55]>> I don't really have one except Isn't that interesting?

[00:29:59]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:30:00]>> But I don't I don't know.

[00:30:01]>> Well, here's the theory.

[00:30:02]>> That's That's the the theory is that it's interesting. Um >> that they're picking up on something.

[00:30:06]Uh-huh.

[00:30:07]>> And you see a lot I mean you know as comedians that you can express so much in like the tiniest gesture of the face and the way the body moves and like you've expressed like a whole world in that >> that people are not conscious of but it goes it it conveys information.

[00:30:23]>> What about me when I completely misread the signals almost always?

[00:30:28]>> Same.

[00:30:29]>> I mean oh my god it's so cool to hear you say that to me. Um >> now where are you?

[00:30:34]>> Now where are you? and where he is.

[00:30:36]>> Why are you listening to him?

[00:30:38]>> Always.

[00:30:39]>> Always. Um, no. I I I just whatever. I just I feel like I cast a wide net and then I get a couple crabs, so to speak.

[00:30:47]>> Um, >> meaning you're not looking.

[00:30:49]>> Oh, no, no, no. I feel like I Gosh.

[00:30:51]>> Meaning you're not actually looking.

[00:30:53]>> Oh, >> I think that's more dead on.

[00:30:55]>> You're not paying attention.

[00:30:56]>> Sure.

[00:30:58]Sure. So, Matt's thing with me is always, well, maybe it's that guys are afraid to approach you or something. And I'm like, and then I what I've internalized with like parental voices and just the voices in my head that are just all the way back from childhood.

[00:31:10]I'm so sorry to make you do this.

[00:31:12]>> Go ahead.

[00:31:12]>> Um, >> okay.

[00:31:15]>> It's just that it's like, oh well, like the the the worthy the worthiness, my own sense of worth is not like aligning with the possibility that this could be >> Yeah.

[00:31:24]>> that this is possible at all.

[00:31:26]>> Right.

[00:31:26]>> So >> So may I translate, >> please? So, you're saying that whatever noise you're getting from the inside is putting a filter and you don't actually see who's in front of you >> or that I immediately uh write it off.

[00:31:42]>> Yeah.

[00:31:43]>> Yeah.

[00:31:44]>> A lot of noise coming from the inside and it's like getting in the way of you seeing what's going on.

[00:31:49]>> Absolutely. Just so many super constructed frequencies kind of amplifying each other. Um, I see you in my head as a turtle who doesn't know your shell has some spikes.

[00:32:04]>> Wow.

[00:32:04]>> Sometimes I think that he doesn't realize when he's pushing when when he's being >> um withdrawing.

[00:32:13]>> I think you with you withdraw when you get maybe a little nervous. And I think that what you're picking up on is like people are intimidated by me is I think actually think they're not. But you're just you're you would react a little bit more strongly than I think you realize.

[00:32:28]>> Okay.

[00:32:28]>> That that's my read on it as his best friend of 15 years.

[00:32:32]>> Yeah.

[00:32:32]>> Yeah.

[00:32:32]>> Yeah.

[00:32:33]>> Has he ever said that to you before?

[00:32:35]>> Yeah. Uh he I don't think he's I don't think he's made the turtle comparison, but I it makes it's a great >> turtle thing came to me just now.

[00:32:42]>> Nice.

[00:32:44]>> Yeah. Very good. I was picturing one of those Mario turtles like where they have you know the ones you don't want to be around that fly down the and they have the spikes on their shells like a Bowser type really or not.

[00:32:54]>> Yeah. You know a Bowser type.

[00:32:56]>> A Bowser type.

[00:32:56]>> Oh is a Bowser type.

[00:32:58]>> But not really. Not like that. He ain't roaring.

[00:33:01]>> He's got jokes though.

[00:33:02]>> What do you think is the most What do you think is the healthiest relationship in pop culture?

[00:33:05]>> Mario and Peach. No, but Peach is always >> No.

[00:33:08]>> What's the healthiest relationship in pop culture?

[00:33:10]>> Oh, but you know you you even told us I'm so sorry. No, no, no, no, no. We're moving. We're moving past because Dr. Order even told us, "I know nothing about pop culture. Why am I putting you on the spot and making you I'm so sorry."

[00:33:21]>> When you are the culture, you don't need to know it.

[00:33:24]>> Oh yes, >> you're the style icon of the year.

[00:33:26]>> I'm going to say that from now on. I am I don't know anything.

[00:33:30]>> That's a good line. Just when you're strolling down Park Slope, be like, "Listen, I am the culture."

[00:33:35]>> Park Slope's okay. Nobody challenges me there.

[00:33:38]>> They're all doing their own thing.

[00:33:39]>> Everyone's in pajamas. We do want to ask you though um the central question of our show and yes you know we usually do have people in the entertainment world and not obviously you are but you know this is an interesting thing to ask you Dr. Orno what was the culture that made you say culture was for you defining culture whether it be atmospheric or pop cultural that you think moved you in a U direction. Okay, I did think about it, but I'm a little worried that it's going to be out of touch with what's normally happening here or like sound.

[00:34:15]>> So, what I thought were two things. One was um David Lynch's Twin Peaks.

[00:34:23]>> Well, sure.

[00:34:24]>> That was like when that show came out, I was like, "Okay, I belong to this world."

[00:34:30]>> Wow.

[00:34:31]>> What about it?

[00:34:32]>> The way it was unsettling. unsettling, going for the weird, not afraid to go for like the unconscious material and go really far into it and manifest it visually. It was just like, >> "Oh, I relate to this."

[00:34:49]>> Can you believe that was on ABC?

[00:34:51]>> Can you believe that was on network?

[00:34:53]>> Just like a network television show that would it would never stand a chance in hell now.

[00:34:57]>> Right. Right. But that was an amazing moment.

[00:35:00]>> Yeah. just real emotional texture and terrain and stuff that's not easy to digest >> and a lot about like madness >> about the madness of of like the psyche like all the edges of the psyche.

[00:35:13]>> Was this before you wanted to go into therapy?

[00:35:18]>> Yes.

[00:35:19]>> I've already been in therapy by then.

[00:35:22]>> I've already explored the edges.

[00:35:24]>> Wow.

[00:35:25]>> That's why it appealed to you.

[00:35:26]>> That's why it appealed to you. And was there another answer? The other one was um Pina Baos has this um piece called Cafe Mueller. I don't know if you've ever seen it.

[00:35:37]>> I don't think so.

[00:35:39]>> It's it's an incredible dance piece where and you know it's dance theater.

[00:35:43]>> Mhm.

[00:35:44]>> And it's couples. It's all couples. But it's just I mean highly recommend it.

[00:35:51]It's one of the most moving and intense and >> beautiful pieces that captures something incredible about humanity and about relationships and both the appeal and the impossibility of relationships.

[00:36:06]>> Right.

[00:36:06]>> It's a really incredible piece >> and which directly links to >> to what I do and what I'm interested in.

[00:36:12]Yeah.

[00:36:13]>> I love when the when the answer is clearly a thread.

[00:36:18]>> Okay. you know, like it's just >> and I I actually enjoy it more when it's something that I have not seen.

[00:36:22]>> Okay. Because I'm learning something.

[00:36:25]>> What is it about the relationships on display there? Just like they're they're very emotional.

[00:36:30]>> They're very emotional. All her work is very emotional, but it's also funny.

[00:36:33]It's always witty. Um, and there's a lot of meta in it uh in all of her dance pieces. like it's it's both like really sensual and and very now but also intellectual.

[00:36:50]Um but she plays a lot with gender in those pieces. Um men women men women and and power structures and dependency and independence like people kind of jump on each other hold on to each other push each other away. There's a lot of longing and mourning and aggression and it's like all the things that make us humans. It's >> and and beautiful.

[00:37:18]>> Yeah.

[00:37:19]>> Do you get any sort of sinthetic isn't the right word, but as you are in treatment with people?

[00:37:26]>> Mhm. I feel like you are maybe you are like seeing something or sensing something that like is kind of channeling in through something that is not purely intellectual although of course it is >> like is there any description you have on that?

[00:37:43]Um, I think it would be I wonder if you guys as as actors and comedians if you talk about this, but you know, people convey like a huge amount of information beyond the words they use. Sometimes it's aligned with the words they use, but often it's like of a different nature.

[00:38:02]Sometimes it's even opposite of what they're saying. But you know like I'm moving my hands like my eyes like like the body you feel it when you're sitting with people all of this information is transpiring between us and a lot of it is very unconscious that's why I said like years later you can look at the picture and then you realize >> the information was there >> but it takes us a long time to understand it in words and in in our conscious mind. Mhm.

[00:38:32]>> But as an analyst, you're you're trained to be like like an antenna that listens to all of it. So like when I'm sitting with patients, it's like I'm like an antenna that receives a lot of information and I've learned over the years to translate that into material that I can think of.

[00:38:51]Um >> I don't know was that an answer?

[00:38:54]>> Yeah, absolutely. Because even your body language in this in those sessions is active listening.

[00:39:01]I move. I move my face. I move my hands.

[00:39:04]I I move in my chair a lot. I'm I'm in >> My favorite part of the show is the micro expressions that that it picks up.

[00:39:13]I mean, that's my I think when the camera finds the partner who's receiving the information and you can see them either working it out or disagreeing or whatever it is and then obviously it without fail picks up with you. Where are you? You know what I mean? And I think that's my favorite thing about the show. And it is, you know, it is a skill to be sitting and receiving what someone is saying while also stuff. Yeah.

[00:39:40]>> Yeah. What what the other person is going through, which is really one of the most important things about what is being said.

[00:39:46]>> Yeah.

[00:39:46]>> And just the cameras being hidden the way they are or placed the way they are.

[00:39:53]>> Yeah. I can tell you that sometimes there are sessions where the DP or someone who's been looking through one of the cameras tells me something about someone's facial expression that I didn't see.

[00:40:04]>> Ah, >> wow.

[00:40:06]>> Wow.

[00:40:07]>> Yeah.

[00:40:07]>> Would you call it verite? Like cuz documentary isn't totally accurate and I but I think the appeal of the show for so many people the reason why it's it's it's a broad inviting appealing show is because it scratches the sort of voyeristic reality show itch that everyone kind of has like their base.

[00:40:22]Not everyone, but like I certainly do.

[00:40:25]And yet it feels like it's it's verite.

[00:40:28]It's it is the truth.

[00:40:29]>> It's verite cuz no one is influencing anything other than me trying to help people get better, but no one's telling us >> do this, do that, or make it more this or have the treatment end. Well, it's it's the cameras are just there and the editors are just waiting for the footage to just tell the story as it is.

[00:40:50]>> Sure. And are the lights on the sound stage mimicking what the daylight situation is outside?

[00:40:56]>> It had to.

[00:40:57]>> Yes. I'm like, "Oh, it's so it's it's Yeah, I'm in a such a world right now after what you said. I have to tell you.

[00:41:04]I'm really thinking about it." Like I was thinking about cuz it happened a fifth time with a picture. Yes. So, so this is years and years and years ago. I just got to NYU and we have a very close friend who remains our one of our best friends to this very day. His name is Dave and I saw him in a picture and he was from Rhode Island. I'm from Long Island and we hadn't met and it was his parents who sort of look like my parents and his sister who was exactly three years younger than him and him and we dressed similarly and I could tell we were from a different from a similar like culture of upbringing. And I thought in my mind when I saw that picture I was like I have to date that boy.

[00:41:41]>> He I I have to I have to. And I think what I really needed at the time was someone who was like me.

[00:41:49]>> Yeah. You needed some twinning.

[00:41:50]>> I needed someone who was like, "You're like me and you're going to be okay."

[00:41:55]You know what I mean? And I think my first boyfriend, Henry, I was 25. He's so sweet.

[00:42:01]>> And he was coming across in the picture as very cuddly and sweet. And that's I knew I was due for a first relationship and he was the one for that.

[00:42:09]>> I had a an ex that messed me up. And I think what I saw in the picture was like, "That guy's gonna [ __ ] [ __ ] out of me." You know what I mean? Yeah, you did. And you know what I mean? And I think it's it's I'm just working it out now. It's like that thing. It has to be something beyond I'm clairvoyant and I see a picture and I know this I know this thing. It's your body telling you like there that's the thread we need to follow. Like and it's a visual.

[00:42:37]>> I'm really happy I can finally find that >> cuz now I know it's like you know you have a reaction to something. It's like telling you something else.

[00:42:44]>> It's it's to fulfill a psychological need at the time, >> right? Yeah. And you pick up on the queue without knowing.

[00:42:51]>> Our mind, our conscious mind is so behind everything else that's happening.

[00:42:56]>> Yeah. All your conscious mind knows to do is to obsess.

[00:42:59]>> Yeah.

[00:42:59]>> It that's >> Or to say hot.

[00:43:02]>> Yeah.

[00:43:02]>> Hot or like you know like you know then send a DM you shouldn't send or >> Yeah.

[00:43:10]>> Introducing M&M's caramel you already love now popped into a totally new texture. I'd say M&M's are one of those truly iconic snacks.

[00:43:18]>> They've just launched a brand new freeze-dried innovation that brings a whole new vibe to the M&M lineup.

[00:43:24]>> I mean, come on, what's not to love about M&M's by itself? And if it's freezedried, I feel like I'm in space.

[00:43:33]M&M's continues to be that girl. The crunch is unexpected in the best way.

[00:43:38]>> Way crisper than you'd think. Like you bite into one and there's this little pop that you don't see coming from something that still tastes like classic M&M's caramel. Sure, they don't look exactly like the M&M's, you know, but they are the M&M's you love. They're perfect for snacking when watching television, scrolling on your phone, or settling in for a movie.

[00:43:56]>> And I'm already thinking they'll be great to have on hand while watching the Culture Awards.

[00:44:00]>> Yes, the best part is they've got that classic M&M's caramel flavor. It's available in stores now. I really wonder what you think. Have you always worked with same-sex couples?

[00:44:13]>> Yeah. So, I wonder what you think about just, you know, as gay men who are, you know, in different stages of dating, and this obviously is a big topic on this podcast. I wonder what you've seen change or not change about samesex relationships since you started practicing or working with couples to now, as the world has changed so much about the way that we're accepted or discussed.

[00:44:38]I can offer up the prevalence of open relationships among gay men.

[00:44:43]>> Yeah.

[00:44:44]>> Being more being being more >> not only among gay men. Of course, open relationships in general.

[00:44:48]>> I mean, that's one of the gifts that uh keeps giving. No, the g the gay men offer society.

[00:44:54]>> Oh, sure. Sure. I thought you were going to say it's a gift that keeps on giving for you.

[00:45:00]>> No, I wasn't.

[00:45:01]>> No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[00:45:03]>> The idea of it.

[00:45:04]>> Yes.

[00:45:04]>> Yeah. The idea of it has been I think excellent. I mean opening up all these like barriers. But but going back to >> going back to that interesting question.

[00:45:16]Um there are some I mean I've been working for a long time. I'm old. Um, and there are some obvious things which is like earlier on in my career, gay men would come and there would be so much so much palpable internalized homophobia.

[00:45:35]It was like it was like thick.

[00:45:37]>> And it's so much lighter now.

[00:45:39]>> It's not gone.

[00:45:40]>> No, >> not gone, but so much lighter now. And there's so much more language around it and and and just people have the capacity to think about it >> rather than for homophobia to kind of >> clutch them without them understanding what's destroying them.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah. That you can do it to yourself.

[00:45:59]>> Yes. Of course.

[00:46:01]>> Yeah. I I maybe back uh a couple decades ago even like there was just something um death drive related to the fact that like um you know like that like your your sort of bill of health was so commodified or was a thing that like preferred conferred status on people that was completely constructed.

[00:46:26]You know what I mean? Just in terms of in like a pre-prep society when like >> Yeah. You're talking about the AIDS.

[00:46:31]Like I know. And and that period of time that was like insane like how much like >> homophobia got like wrapped into all these other death drive.

[00:46:41]>> It it it was that was horrible. Not to mention that there were all these deaths that people were dealing with. I mean >> that that was like a Yeah, that was a very >> very complicated time period.

[00:46:53]>> Um anyway, so that's on the grand scale of things of how things have changed.

[00:46:59]Um you know nowadays there are other big things that are happening that are affecting not only gay couples but you know this sense of like forcehortened future that there's there's less of >> where is this world going climate you know AI and >> which has an impact on relationships. So >> I mean I'm going to make a generalization that I don't know if it's true. It's just what I see in my practice. It's not like a real study, >> but it almost had like an inverse effect on gay relationships versus straight relationships.

[00:47:36]>> Like straight people are less in a hurry to get into relationships. They kind of don't see a future.

[00:47:44]>> And gay, this is vast generalization, gay people are more okay with settling into relationships and less kind of >> sure >> anxiously boopping around.

[00:47:56]I don't know how to exactly theorize about that.

[00:48:00]>> We said to a friend on the podcast recently um this is the first time >> maybe in like human history where we are uh mourning the future in advance.

[00:48:10]>> Yes. Well put. And so like is is that maybe part of it where gay couples feel >> why not fulfill the psych the psychological need for them culturally or whatever individually where it's like well this thing that like I was told was never available to me.

[00:48:26]>> Let me try to make that happen as as >> whatever quickly or whatever more in as fulfilling of a way as possible.

[00:48:33]>> Yeah.

[00:48:34]>> And straight people are kind of like well what's what's the point?

[00:48:36]>> What's the point? I'm supposed to be doing this but the promise is gone.

[00:48:41]They're seeing examples of their friends with children and have and seeing how difficult it is to raise them and >> and how do you imagine a future for them?

[00:48:48]>> Uhhuh.

[00:48:49]>> Yeah.

[00:48:50]>> I think it's I think maybe that's something I don't know.

[00:48:52]>> Yeah.

[00:48:53]>> But I that that that I don't find that to be a generalization that actually feels >> it. You resonate with that?

[00:48:59]>> Definitely.

[00:49:00]>> I think so. I've definitely thought more often lately just the general malaise >> le Yeah. Like even tonight, our friends are like, "We're gonna go to jockstrap night at the Eagle." And I was like, >> "You of course love the Eagle." I'm sure as I'm sure you got plenty of >> And uh I know the Eagle. The Eagle.

[00:49:22]>> Um >> come with us.

[00:49:24]>> Yeah.

[00:49:25]>> Be pleased. It'd be a too huge of a hit.

[00:49:27]>> Um but I can't think of anything I'd want to do less, honestly. And I do wonder if that's just me getting older or feel like I already did it. But I feel like in a world where it's this idea of mourning the future, >> I've already done a lot of the frivolous, careless stuff, you know, there's this song, >> it's called If the World was Ending. And um it talks about like the lyric is if the world was ending, you'd come over, right? Just asking one person like I just want to check in with you like that if the world was going to end and we all knew it and we had an hour to get to someone, you would do that, right? You know what I mean? Like it's this idea that >> Yeah. And I think >> and if the world is ending, can we finally just be together?

[00:50:11]>> Right.

[00:50:12]>> If it if if it was, >> you know, and of course the song is written because this idea is out there in the ether. And I just feel like I've done all this. I know what that feels like. I don't really know what it feels like to be like secure, you know?

[00:50:28]>> Right.

[00:50:29]this idea like I've like I've always fought with this idea of monogamy because I feel like I'm talking as a version of my past self. You know what I mean? That wouldn't be able or wouldn't want to not um >> it's this thing I have in my head about it and not meaning I had freedom or something or why should it be cheating if you know if this happens. It's like, but nowadays it's like I don't know if it's my general um >> energy for all of that because it does take a lot of work, >> right?

[00:51:01]>> Um or it's something else. Um but the I can wrap my head around the concept of it now. Yeah.

[00:51:09]>> And I could have been just railing against monogamy as a concept because that was the heterosexual concept and therefore I didn't like it. Right.

[00:51:15]>> But um >> but it's but that's changed. I think it's interesting you say that because I I see that in myself >> and maybe it's that idea of mourning the future. Okay, if we're mourning a future, maybe I should look at things a different way >> if we're mourning, you know?

[00:51:30]>> Yeah.

[00:51:31]>> It was a thing that was not available to us growing up in in the sense that like we were watching our straight friends couple up and do the things like in middle school and high school and like just developmentally sort of like grow with the time and the age that they were. Yeah. Or something like that.

[00:51:49]>> We gave that up a long time.

[00:51:51]>> We never had it.

[00:51:52]>> I don't know if gave it up. Never had it. Never allowed to have it.

[00:51:56]>> Exactly.

[00:51:58]>> Um, so I I went through conversion therapy.

[00:52:00]>> Yeah.

[00:52:01]>> And I I feel like I'm finally on the other side of it. It'll always come back.

[00:52:07]>> Are you okay to say something?

[00:52:08]>> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, it was total quackery. Eight weeks. this guy trying like sort of um uh like drip feeding it to me where the first four sessions were like talk therapy tradition like just nothing no sort of dogmatic agenda to it at all.

[00:52:26]>> Grooming you, >> huh?

[00:52:27]>> Grooming you.

[00:52:28]>> Grooming me. Oh, how ironic. And so, uh and then the back half was um okay, let's walk through talk me through a moment where you felt attracted to a man >> and where were you? How were you feeling? It was like, how were you feeling in your body? What was your posture? You were hunched over. Well, that must mean that you were feeling Were you in pain? You must have been in pain. And that and so and so, yeah. So, let's just start associating your your your same sex attraction with moments where you were in distress.

[00:52:57]>> Oh my god.

[00:52:58]>> And that was what was kind of so early on internalized for me.

[00:53:04]>> Wow.

[00:53:05]>> And it's like, >> yeah, >> using CBT.

[00:53:09]>> Yes. It was full CBT, but like in >> it's like mind manipulation.

[00:53:13]>> Mhm.

[00:53:14]>> Wow.

[00:53:15]>> And the >> It's violence.

[00:53:17]>> So this little violence.

[00:53:19]>> Yeah. And I should tell you the second to last session.

[00:53:25]Uh >> did you know that something bad is being done to you?

[00:53:28]>> Um no. I think that was that was the goal of the first four sessions, the grooming.

[00:53:32]>> The grooming. Yeah.

[00:53:32]>> So the ultimatum was uh for my parents, they find long story short, they find out I'm gay. I my college acceptances are coming in my sister whatever. And so the ultimatum is either you stay in state in Colorado and go to school here and live with us or you can go to New York and live with your sister um if you go through this conversion therapy. The irony was that my sister went to NYU, the gayest undergrad in the world.

[00:53:59]>> Awesome.

[00:53:59]>> They created one of the most publicly gay people in America.

[00:54:04]>> Awesome.

[00:54:04]>> And I'm so happy they did.

[00:54:06]>> Oh my god. So I acquiesed and I was coming home with my parents like sobbing at the dinner table every single night and I was like I have to make as a child of immigrants. I'm like I have to make this right.

[00:54:14]>> I've like this is this is the biggest this is a wound upon the family that I that is it's on me to heal. So I go along with this and uh the second to last session, you know, we're fine. I'm I'm I'm going through I'm like giving it a go. I'm like, "Okay, my identity is malleable. Sure, I'm growing like neuroplasticity, whatever." Um, my dad goes, "Can you give us referrals for people in New York who do this?" And he's like, "Sure, I will come up with a list for the last session."

[00:54:45]I go home, next week is the last session. I go in, he wants to reflect, sort of put a cap on the whole thing.

[00:54:51]He's like, "How?" So, let's just reflect on what this is. And I and then we talk about it and then he goes, "I want to share with you an anecdote about one of my former patients. This former patient of mine was driving along the highway in California and his car starts to break down and he has to get off at in San Bernardino. Not somewhere you want to be. He gets off at San Bernardino and he stops at a Denny's. It's late at night.

[00:55:12]He goes to the Denny's. He sits down.

[00:55:14]The waiter comes over to him. He's a glint in his eye. Pours him coffee.

[00:55:18]There's a connection.

[00:55:21]And I go, "Am I going to am I going to really have sex with this waiter?" He switches into the first person.

[00:55:30]And then he catches himself.

[00:55:32]>> Oh my god.

[00:55:32]>> And he goes, I mean, my patient was saying, >> and I caught him in the lie. The blood leaves his face.

[00:55:40]>> Mhm.

[00:55:41]>> Everything about the last 8 weeks was completely destroyed.

[00:55:45]>> Clear to you. Was completely clear to you. It was a charade.

[00:55:49]>> Yes.

[00:55:51]>> Wow.

[00:55:51]>> He rushes to finish the session. I leave kind of shell shocked like, okay, yeah.

[00:55:56]like this is a lie and the diplomas on his wall are all fake or they're all just they're just >> they don't matter. Even if he earned them, they don't matter in this moment.

[00:56:04]>> And so then he brings me out to the waiting room where my dad sits and he's like that was a great last session and these are the names. I could only find one name of someone who does this in New York and he's not even in New York. He is in New Jersey.

[00:56:19]And then my dad goes, "Well, you can take the train out to Jersey every week, right?" Right. And I was like, "Yeah, I definitely I'll take the New Jersey Transit to see this therapist once a week while I'm in college."

[00:56:30]>> Mhm.

[00:56:31]>> I knew in that moment, and I think even my dad knew, >> this is not going to continue. Never happening.

[00:56:37]>> Yeah.

[00:56:37]>> And that was like just this sort of unceremonious, hilarious in a way end to that whole saga.

[00:56:43]>> Wow.

[00:56:43]>> Yeah.

[00:56:44]>> But I'm still kind of like convolesing from this, >> of course.

[00:56:49]>> Yeah.

[00:56:50]>> Did you see uh Matthew and Giani?

[00:56:53]>> Yeah. Yes.

[00:56:56]And it's just it's it's it's so it's so intense and I I keep writing it off and people keep wanting to talk about it and sometimes I'm cy about it and sometimes I'm >> but I'm just like and and I think people have this sense that I'm a reserved person who like shuts down, dissociates.

[00:57:10]I'm disconnected from things and I'm like, well, yeah, I guess >> this happened to me.

[00:57:15]>> This happened to me and I have to be protective. There is like a when it gets I I hear you saying like sometimes it it depends who wants to talk about it because there is this s sensationalizing that happens in the media about conversion therapy like oh can you believe it what a survivor and it's like yes this is true but like when it's in print or something or when it's for someone else like it's hard because that is your real experience and you're it's very hard to walk through that >> and I think an image gets conjured up in other people's brains about like me with like electrodes or whatever it's like >> I actually did have that image Did you?

[00:57:47]>> Yeah, I did think about like >> right and that's okay because >> CT for women you know that are like >> that were too histrionic hysterical women. Yeah.

[00:57:58]>> Um, it is and you would and I don't fault you for that, but I think it's just the portrayal of it in media or some such is makes it so that people have this like >> people project onto me like their >> their their condolences or whatever. And I'm like I think like it was fine and it was actually quite >> boring.

[00:58:17]>> Yeah.

[00:58:18]>> But what it did was very pernicious and very slow and it's it's been very hard to sort of like >> wade through that. But thank you for listening to me tell you that story.

[00:58:25]Well, thank you for being open.

[00:58:27]>> Anyway, like anyway, >> when people tell on themselves, it's so like I years and years and years ago, this is and don't do this and no one would now. I was a freshman at NYU and me and my friend went into as a joke went into the Scientology building. And we were like, let we were like, let we were like, let's see how crazy it is.

[00:58:46]And this guy gave us a tour. They split us up, by the way.

[00:58:49]>> Of course.

[00:58:50]>> Yeah. They gave us a tour. And it was I was like, I got to get the hell out of here. So, at the end, he's like, "Okay, just sign this thing and we'll go." And I just go, the last thing I said was, "What made you want to get into this?"

[00:59:01]And he goes, "Well, for a really long time, I used to be really angry >> and I'm still really angry."

[00:59:12]>> And he was so mad. And then >> and then me and my friend are like, "Oh my god." Looking at each other like, "Yeah, what?" Right. He goes, "And I just feel like ever since I came here, >> Mhm.

[00:59:22]>> I'm not angry anymore."

[00:59:25]>> And we were like, "Okay, it's time to leave Scientology Time Square at this juncture." 18-year-old me and Lizzy.

[00:59:35]>> We got the heck out of there. But it's it's I feel bad. The veneer always cracks, though. I don't know. It's like even with this guy who like professionally was >> paying it forward in terms of getting people to go back in the closet.

[00:59:47]>> Mhm. it it didn't work on him, right?

[00:59:49]>> You know what I mean? Um, >> but my last question before we get into I don't think so, honey, is now that you're doing press for this and in the years that you've done press for the show, do you feel like there's a kind of scaled up avoidance of transference or that you feel like you you have to like be very guarded about your own personal life >> or not share too many details about yourself so that the audience does not >> counter transfer on you in a way because they are parasially seeing you as a therapist.

[01:00:15]>> Yeah. I mean, that's been from the beginning of of us doing the show. I mean, the the filmmakers who are now seriously they could be analysts.

[01:00:24]They've gone through analytic training with me.

[01:00:26]>> Wow.

[01:00:27]>> But early on, they were like, "Well, you're you're going to be an important person in the show. We want you involved. We want to know a lot about you." And I was like, "No, no, no. It's not going to work." Yeah.

[01:00:37]>> If you know too much about me. Because the whole idea is for the therapist to kind of move to the background to some degree and to let the action unfold, not to focus on me. And I think that's a very important part of the show >> that it's not about me and my personality and my background and all of that, but it's about the work.

[01:00:58]>> I feel like you you probably have to be boundaried about that in the promotion of the show. I'm sure people want to ask you things about yourself where you're like >> people I think people are well trained by now.

[01:01:07]>> Mhm. Good.

[01:01:08]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Cuz I'm even >> You guys have been very nice. You have to ask me very personal questions. Thank you.

[01:01:15]>> I was like the eagle.

[01:01:17]>> I mean, I'm sitting here thinking like I wonder at the eagle if we can get into her third.

[01:01:22]>> Not on camera.

[01:01:24]>> Exactly.

[01:01:25]>> No problem. Um, this is I don't think so, honey. We have we have a preview of what yours is going to be, but we'll go first. Okay.

[01:01:30]>> To sort of set the the syntax or whatever.

[01:01:32]>> I have a therapy based one or or emotionalbased one.

[01:01:36]>> Okay. Okay, cuz I realized this today actually cuz it happened.

[01:01:40]>> All right.

[01:01:40]>> Okay, here we go.

[01:01:41]>> This is Matt Rogers's I don't think so, honey. His time starts now.

[01:01:45]>> I don't think so, honey. Passive aggression because I think I realized what I hate about it. It makes me feel like you think I'm an idiot. Like I don't see it and that's what bothers me.

[01:01:56]>> Was I being that?

[01:01:57]>> No, it's you can be, but you were not being it >> because I think you know that I'm smart.

[01:02:04]Um, but some people I think that don't or they're they're not giving me the credit that I don't pick up on every little thing that you say passive aggressively. I would rather you insult me. I would rather you be aggressive than be passive aggressive because of the thing that's running alongside it, which is they're too dumb or they're too self-involved to pick up on what I'm also saying like or what the underlying meaning of this is. Like I promise you I pick up on it. And the fact that I then have to sit with it is also a noxious thing you're doing. You're not saying what it is. It's something you want me to ruminate on. And because I do think so, honey, I don't think so, honey. It's working. And that's why I don't like it.

[01:02:48]>> And that's one minute.

[01:02:49]>> But the passive aggressive behavior I've realized like is the thing that gets me the most.

[01:02:54]>> But that is the theme of our hour together. Like the idea really we have a theme here.

[01:03:00]>> Really? Yeah, because you're talking about the the fact that the words might not be really what the piece the person is conveying. They're conveying so much more and you're supposed to ignore all the stuff, but you're picking up on all of it that they're being hostile and mean and you're supposed to like >> go along with it while you've picked up on it.

[01:03:20]>> Somebody said >> like just say it directly. Just have the words and the behavior match.

[01:03:25]>> Yes. This is what set me off. Somebody said, "Well, so and so is the only person that listens to me."

[01:03:31]>> And I was just like, >> "Right."

[01:03:33]>> I was like, "I don't listen to you."

[01:03:34]Right. Like, and and I was just like, it's a couple things. It's like, you don't think I'll pick up on that and be upset about it or that it would hurt my feelings and that you would say it in a way that you knew would hurt my feelings when, you know what I mean, >> but not own it.

[01:03:49]>> It's like cowardly.

[01:03:50]>> Yeah. It's like I do feel like passive aggress aggression like especially in wellestablished relationships or relationships where you know there's a lot of care. I I find that if I ever am like reacting in a way people are like, "Oh, you snapped." It's like I don't even notice I'm doing it. I think I'm just super sensitive to not being given the credit to handle direct information.

[01:04:13]>> Yeah.

[01:04:13]>> And are you hoping for them to give you that sort of directness in kind? I'm hoping that people just tell me what's up.

[01:04:21]>> Like, you have something, say it.

[01:04:24]>> And maybe it's because they feel like I'm going to have an answer for everything, so they'd rather not directly um like give me the information because they know that I react very quickly and I'm a verbal processor, but I still don't like it, you know, like >> I'm with you.

[01:04:41]>> Yeah, I bet.

[01:04:42]>> Yeah, I'm with you. And it was just it but it's you know I was I again like that's why I love the show so much is because it helps you realize things about yourself because suddenly I'm like well they're right you know what I mean and then this other thing comes in where I'm like oh my god like you know but again had we just said the thing >> but not everyone is just ready to say the thing >> right >> because there's a whole ocean of non-verbal communication that's happening under the >> and because we we push we repressed we dissociate we don't know everything.

[01:05:13]>> Mhm.

[01:05:14]>> Our conscious mind is a latecomer.

[01:05:17]>> Yeah.

[01:05:18]>> I'm reading um The Laith of Heaven by Ursula K. Lquin. Have you read it?

[01:05:23]>> No.

[01:05:23]>> Okay.

[01:05:24]>> Sci-fi novel written in the 70s about like um a man who has the power to change the world in his dreams. And so he goes to a doctor um and she wrote like The Left Hand of Darkness. She's like a very she's like very queer, very like ahead of her time. Still ahead of her time even though she passed away uh 10 years ago. um sci-fi writer, but um it's basically his his clinician understanding his power, like inducing sleep in him, but like influencing his dreams so that he gets what he wants.

[01:05:51]>> Oh, wow.

[01:05:52]>> It's Anyway, so there's just I don't know why I bring this up just in terms of like >> that >> in terms of the subconscious mind.

[01:05:59]>> Yeah.

[01:05:59]>> Yeah.

[01:06:00]>> Like having this kind of >> a bad doctor.

[01:06:02]>> No. And and and and it ends up being this. It ends up being this he is he's the villain of the it's it's it's the patient understanding what's being done to him and he has to stop the doctor.

[01:06:10]It's incredible. I have I have a more frivolous one.

[01:06:13]>> I have a more frivolous one, but it's still therapy related.

[01:06:15]>> This is Bo and Yangs. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now.

[01:06:18]>> I don't think so, honey. The white noise machines outside the therapist's office.

[01:06:22]Come on. I mean, I understand it's important for that for for for that arrangement. Sometimes I want brown noise. Sometimes I want pink noise. I want different frequencies. It's such a different frequency of noise. Got it.

[01:06:35]But but actually has the potential to lull you to sleep. But then your subconscious mind kind of comes to play.

[01:06:40]I just think I I remember feeling so stupid when I asked my prior my previous therapist when I would walk in her office. I was like, "What are those little dish things at the bottom of each door?"

[01:06:49]>> 30 seconds.

[01:06:49]>> She was like, "Those are the white noise machines so that people don't listen in on each other's sessions." And I was like, "Right, right, right. I don't know. Show us a little. We'll keep it a secret. Obviously, it's confidential.

[01:07:00]I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But sometimes, isn't it fun? It be fun if therapy were it would incentivize you to go to therapy so you can just lightly snoop.

[01:07:09]You can never linger. You can just kind of walk past to go to the bathroom. But then, you know, it gives then it kind of uh if it helps divert whatever unnecessarily unnecessarily tellahalth is happening. Let's I'm all for it.

[01:07:22]>> And that's one minute.

[01:07:23]>> That's one minute. Some tell some tellahalth is nec necessary.

[01:07:26]>> Some of it show up. You >> you must be a little relieved though to have the show. So at some element of you, you can be like, can you [ __ ] believe this guy? Like you know what I mean? You must leave some sessions like I kind of wish I could share what just happened with someone but obviously I can't. Now you have the show.

[01:07:41]>> I know. I know. And I can talk to people about my patients. It's like an amazing gift.

[01:07:46]>> Kind of a hack.

[01:07:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:48]>> And they get they let you.

[01:07:49]>> By the way, I don't use white noise machines.

[01:07:51]>> Interesting.

[01:07:52]>> I use music.

[01:07:53]>> Oh, what kind of music?

[01:07:54]>> Yeah. Whatever. I feel like a playlist, but >> great.

[01:07:57]>> I I don't like white noise machines anymore.

[01:07:59]>> I'm sure you have wonderful taste. I was going to say what what's what's your what what I don't know if you use Spotify or Apple Music or what. Yeah.

[01:08:05]Okay. What what's what's on there?

[01:08:07]>> What's on there? Oh, my phone's in the other room.

[01:08:10]>> Um >> is it instrumental stuff? Is it >> At the moment? There's a lot of ambient ambient electronica.

[01:08:17]>> Hell yeah. I bet you'd like 10 tricks never or something.

[01:08:20]>> Oh, I just listened to them yesterday to him.

[01:08:23]>> He just played he just played in Brooklyn.

[01:08:25]>> I know. I know. My daughter actually went to that show.

[01:08:28]>> I was supposed to go to that show.

[01:08:29]saying that was the last thing I LISTENED TO.

[01:08:31]>> WOW.

[01:08:31]>> WOW.

[01:08:32]>> OKAY, >> I'm with you.

[01:08:34]>> I'm with you. Oh, you're so cool. Orna.

[01:08:36]God.

[01:08:37]>> Okay. All right. Of course you listen to noise. All right. Let's go. This is Are you ready?

[01:08:42]>> Yes.

[01:08:42]>> Okay.

[01:08:43]>> This is Ora girl. Dr. Orna girl next. I don't think so, honey. Her time starts now.

[01:08:48]>> Okay. I don't think so, honey.

[01:08:50]>> First of all, to ask a psychoanalyst to rant is already a problem.

[01:08:54]>> Of course. We're so sorry. cuz we're supposed to like analyze all of our grievances and grudges out of ourselves.

[01:09:01]So, no road rage, >> but I do have pet peeves.

[01:09:05]>> Go on.

[01:09:06]>> Um I don't think so, honey. I don't like people that come up to me and ask me, "Can't you leash your dog?"

[01:09:13]>> Look at this dog. I mean, she's like a love bomb. An angel. wild.

[01:09:18]>> And what happens on the street when I'm walking with her and she's just like smoozing around being loving and sweet and and you know the prettiest face, people come and unleash all of their >> Yeah.

[01:09:34]>> old grudges, all of their entitlement, and they're just like, "Can't you leash your dog?" And I'm like, "Can't you leash your anger?"

[01:09:44]>> And then I start selfanalyzing.

[01:09:47]Okay. Okay. Okay, he's another person.

[01:09:49]Accept otherness.

[01:09:51]>> Maybe he's having a hard day. Um, what's up with you? Why are other people bothering you?

[01:09:58]>> Uhhuh.

[01:09:58]>> So, that's how an analyst thinks. But I do want to tell you, for example, >> that there are people like I had this one guy that was standing with a stroller. It's a dad with a screaming baby, like a lot of environmental noise, pollution. and he's standing there and he's watching Nico, my gorgeous love bomb, snooping around and she ran behind a building like into the bushes into the shrubbery. He just stood there and watched and watched and watched and finally she came back and he's like, "Well, are you going to clean up after her?"

[01:10:33]So, I do not like that. I do not like people telling me to leash my dog. I think there's a little bit too much um righteousness in people who want me to leash my dog. I think they should leash their anger.

[01:10:50]>> And that's two minutes.

[01:10:52]>> And that is a lack of control on their part.

[01:10:54]>> Okay.

[01:10:54]>> And we let you be unleashed.

[01:10:57]>> Okay. Thank you.

[01:10:58]>> We unleashed and thank you for that.

[01:10:59]>> The title of this episode is unleashed.

[01:11:01]>> Awesome.

[01:11:02]>> Unleashed with Dr. Or >> or what was it? Accept otherness.

[01:11:06]>> Yes. I like that as well.

[01:11:08]>> Maybe it's a Maybe it's a slasher.

[01:11:09]>> A slasher. It's a slasher film.

[01:11:11]>> It's part one accept otherness part two on >> unleashed.

[01:11:16]>> Um, also I just wanted you to know that we did not come in with the intent of you're going to sit here and listen to us unpack. But I'm happy we got the opportunity to do it.

[01:11:28]>> Yeah, that's what we do.

[01:11:29]>> Thank you for indulging us just a little bit >> as two people have who have considered a couple's therapy.

[01:11:34]>> More reserved.

[01:11:34]>> I am more reserved.

[01:11:36]>> Yeah.

[01:11:36]>> And and and I capture that. I feel >> he is more reserved >> and we and we have and yes I think Matt was also was about to say that like we are two people who have given a lot of thought to doing like in the professional sense like the couples therapy which apparently is very common among podcast co-hosts.

[01:11:51]>> What do you mean?

[01:11:52]>> There's a lot of there are just a lot of like duos frontf facing like public facing duos.

[01:11:56]>> Yeah.

[01:11:57]>> Um >> end up finding some sort of like um analytical space for them to like work out. Oh, I'm super interested.

[01:12:07]>> Well, but also best friends. I mean, we were saying like it's like when you when we when we were just best friends in our 20s and we decided to start this podcast together for fun. When you're like, "Hey, do you want to do this fun thing with me?" You're not thinking, "Hey, do you want to be in 12 years time counting my business partner, the person that I'm relying on, also my best friend, the person I'm next to on stage, the person who has to, you know, answer that email, you know what I mean? It's just a really >> work husband."

[01:12:34]>> Transformative. Yes. Yes.

[01:12:36]>> Transformative, all-encompassing, important relationship, >> you know.

[01:12:41]>> Oh, I would love to hear about that.

[01:12:44]>> Yeah.

[01:12:46]>> All right.

[01:12:46]>> Yeah.

[01:12:47]>> Interesting.

[01:12:48]>> Yeah. I'll invite you when I have my podcast. Yeah.

[01:12:52]Well, it's funny because we we like it's then my therapist says, "I don't think that you guys need it because we do communicate like well, >> but >> mediator was used." Use the word mediator if we just can't agree one day.

[01:13:06]>> Court mandated. Just kidding. Um, >> this has been sublime for me.

[01:13:11]>> Me too.

[01:13:12]>> Me as well. It's been such a pleasure to meet you and it really is. It is an endlessly fascinating show and I mean it that's just one way to describe it. I mean it's just it it it really nourishes me to watch it and again it makes me excited to be in my own therapy. I don't know if that means I'm a performative nightmare but um but uh it really does >> awesome. Thank you.

[01:13:37]>> We end every episode with a song.

[01:13:40]>> What are we going to sing?

[01:13:41]>> I I have an idea but it's it's just the instrumental.

[01:13:43]>> It just can't be loud because of me.

[01:13:46]>> Of course. Hold on.

[01:13:47]>> Also, our tones of voice have been it's usually much more of a gay scream, >> but this has to be a gay coup because of Mo because I know this is how you speak to them.

[01:13:56]>> Okay, here we I and hopefully we all get it.

[01:13:59]>> Okay, >> here we go.

[01:14:07]>> Is this the couples therapy?

[01:14:09]>> It's a couple therapy even fascinated by the way he positioned his mouth.

[01:14:14]>> I know. This was familiar to me and I was like, "Wait, what is it?" And >> I failed. I failed.

[01:14:21]>> For more of this, stream Coup's Therapy >> May 15th, it's out. Bye.

[01:14:28]>> Lost Cultterus is a production by Will Frell's Big Money Players and iHeart Radio podcasts.

[01:14:31]>> Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Executive produced by Anna Hosnier and produced by Becca Ramos.

[01:14:38]>> Edited and mixed by Doug Bane. And our music is by Henry Kverki.