WI v. Josie Dikeman on Court TV

Added: 2026-05-10

[00:00:05]Welcome back to Court TV Live. I'm Julia Jenae. Thank you for following along with us this afternoon as we are inside of this La Crosse County courtroom in Wisconsin. Jurors are hearing details that are disturbing in the trial of Josie Diekman. She's accused of killing her boyfriend's 6-year-old son, AJ Pederson. And prosecutors say that AJ suffered repeated abuse inside of the home including blunt force injuries that were found all over his body. The medical examiner also determined that he ingested a large amount of Xanax before his death in 2023. And prosecutors say that Diekman was the one who was caring for him and is responsible. But the defense is pointing the finger squarely at AJ's father, Derek, saying he had a history of violence in that house. And that became a key moment in court today.

[00:00:51]Derek took the stand and he admitted that he had been abusive towards the defendant. Take a listen.

[00:00:58]What specifically did you do, Derek?

[00:01:04]I put her head through a wall.

[00:01:08]Multiple times.

[00:01:10]And was the instigating that she did towards you justification for doing that to her?

[00:01:17]No, I should have not have done it.

[00:01:19]Let's get you back inside of the courtroom where Derek Pederson still on the stand, still under direct examination by the prosecution. They never charged Derek in terms of AJ's death. They say Josie Diekman was solely responsible and he's been talking about the abuse that he said that little AJ suffered even before his death. Got home that day?

[00:01:39]It was roughly 6:30.

[00:01:43]Between 6:00 and 6:30.

[00:01:46]How did you get home that night? Um my one of my buddies brought me home.

[00:01:54]And you're giving that time, is that an estimate of when you got home? Yeah, between 6:00 and 6:30. It was somewhere in there. Would you always get home at the same time?

[00:02:04]Sometimes, yeah.

[00:02:06]Um sometimes would you run errands before you would come home? Yes.

[00:02:14]When you arrived home that night, what was happening in the house?

[00:02:18]When I walked in the house, um the other kids were running around. I walked to her room cuz that's where Alex is.

[00:02:27]I looked at her. She said asked me if I could get her a bucket and a bag because Alex wasn't feeling good and she was standing right in front of him. So, I grabbed a bucket and a bag, handed it to her. He ended up throwing up. I took the bucket and bag and then I um threw it away outside in our garbage can and then I went back in the house, started cleaning up. I seen a squad car pull up in my driveway and I went back.

[00:03:00]Um Are you or do you recall Alex having um any toileting accidents when you were home that night?

[00:03:12]No, I wasn't home very long to know any of that. But he had a upset stomach.

[00:03:18]That's yeah, that's he threw up, so that's what I was told.

[00:03:22]How was he positioned on the couch when you were there? When I was there, he was sitting up. Was he alert? Yes. Was he awake? Yes.

[00:03:32]Um were you drinking that night, Derek?

[00:03:34]>> No.

[00:03:36]Were you taking any other substances?

[00:03:37]>> No. Did you take any Xanax?

[00:03:39]>> No.

[00:03:40]Did you give any Xanax to anybody else?

[00:03:42]>> No.

[00:03:44]Um were you aggressive that night?

[00:03:48]>> No.

[00:03:49]Were you aggressive with Miss Diekman?

[00:03:51]No. What about any of the kids? No.

[00:03:54]I think you said you saw a squad car pull up at some point.

[00:03:57]>> Yep.

[00:03:58]What did you do when that happened? I knew I wasn't supposed to be there, so I ran upstairs and there's like this like these cupboard doors that you could open and go in like kind of like an attic and I went and hid in there.

[00:04:20]Is that like a like a crawl space? Yeah, kind of.

[00:04:25]Um was that up near the kids' room? Yes.

[00:04:28]Um is that where they would hide stuff and play or what was the space used for? It was just like nothing, really.

[00:04:37]We would put There would be like well like overflow toy bins we'd put in there.

[00:04:45]Um did police make contact with Josie that night? Yes.

[00:04:49]And um eventually did you leave the house? I did.

[00:04:55]What caused you to leave the house? Um she came in and said that basically she came upstairs and said that SWAT was going to come in and get me if I didn't give myself up.

[00:05:07]Why did that make you leave the house?

[00:05:09]Because I didn't want them coming in and my kids seeing that.

[00:05:13]Um were you arrested that night? I was.

[00:05:16]Um for violation of your bonds? Yes. And was that just related to the no contact?

[00:05:21]It was. Okay. You hadn't been drinking that night?

[00:05:23]>> No.

[00:05:25]Um did you ask the officers to say goodbye to your kids that night? I did.

[00:05:30]Did they let you?

[00:05:31]No.

[00:05:37]And were you okay with leaving Alex with Miss Diekman that night?

[00:05:43]Yeah.

[00:05:44]Why?

[00:05:46]I didn't see anything. I mean, I left him with her before when I went to jail, so Were you concerned he could be in danger that night?

[00:05:56]Uh No, I wasn't home long enough to see anything though, so But when you left, he was awake? Yes.

[00:06:06]Had a tummy ache though, maybe?

[00:06:08]I'm guessing.

[00:06:10]Um Did you talk to anybody on the phone from jail that night? I did. Who? Josie.

[00:06:18]And in that conversation, did she indicate to you that anything was wrong with Alex? No.

[00:06:24]Do you know approximately when you called her?

[00:06:28]Um I was arrested at 7:24, so it'd be somewhere around 8-ish after booking. So shortly after?

[00:06:39]Yep.

[00:06:40]Um Derek, was that night the last time you saw Alex alive?

[00:06:46]It is.

[00:06:47]And how did you eventually learn that he had died?

[00:06:58]I woke up the next morning and asked to use the jail phone.

[00:07:05]And one of the I believe it was the jail sergeant, one of the jailers came and got me and took me to um one of the old visiting booths, and my mom, her husband, my sister, and her husband were there.

[00:07:26]And they told me that Alex was gone.

[00:07:28]>> [snorts] >> It was in the morning of January, or excuse me, February 11th? It was.

[00:07:37]Were you eventually released from jail that day, Derek? I I And um was there still a no contact with Ms. Diekman at that time?

[00:07:46]There was.

[00:07:49]Um, after you were released, did Ms. Diekman express frustration to you because you were out of jail but not with her?

[00:07:58]I don't recall that.

[00:08:01]Um, did she ask you to come over after you were released?

[00:08:04]I believe so.

[00:08:06]Where did you go? I went to um, Alex's grandma's house.

[00:08:13]Um, was that your mom's house or Jenna's house?

[00:08:18]>> Jenna's mom's.

[00:08:20]Why did you go there?

[00:08:24]Because I wanted to be with them and my daughter.

[00:08:27]Aubrey was there? Yes.

[00:08:32]Were you and Ms. Diekman communicating via phone call and text message at that time?

[00:08:37]I don't know.

[00:08:40]I don't recall at that time. Okay. Eventually, did you guys resume conversations that way? Yes.

[00:08:48]Um, >> [snorts] >> did you have any contact with Araya or Brantley the night you released on the 11th of February?

[00:08:58]I don't recall.

[00:09:00]Um, at some point did you have contact with law enforcement that night? I did.

[00:09:05]And, uh, how did that communication happen?

[00:09:10]Through phone, cell phone.

[00:09:14]Did you learn that Araya and Brantley were going to be interviewed?

[00:09:20]I don't think that night, no. Okay.

[00:09:22]Eventually, you did though? Yep.

[00:09:24]Um, did you see Araya or Brantley before their interviews? No.

[00:09:28]Um, >> [clears throat] >> were they placed with a family member at that point in time? Yes.

[00:09:34]Did you attend their interviews?

[00:09:37]>> No.

[00:09:38]Um, did you talk to them before those interviews?

[00:09:40]>> No.

[00:09:41]What about Major? Did you talk to Major before he was interviewed? No.

[00:09:45]Um did you talk to Major's dad or anybody else in Major's family? No.

[00:09:53]Did Ms. Dickman ever discourage you from speaking with law enforcement? She tried to.

[00:09:59]Um did you ever try to discourage her from speaking with law enforcement?

[00:10:04]>> Did you ever tell Ms. Dickman to destroy evidence? No.

[00:10:08]Um did you ever threaten Ms. Dickman to keep her from telling the truth about what happened to Alex? No.

[00:10:17]Did you want to know what really happened to Alex?

[00:10:19]>> Yes.

[00:10:24]At this point, Derek, um right after you had been released, what information did you have about what had happened to Alex?

[00:10:30]I was told that he had gotten into a bag of pills.

[00:10:36]Did you know what the pills were, any details like that?

[00:10:38]>> No.

[00:10:39]Did you know about any injuries at that point? No, other than his leg.

[00:10:50]Did Ms. Dickman ever talk to you about getting rid of messages or other things that might be on your phones?

[00:10:57]Not to me cuz I wouldn't do it.

[00:10:59]Did she talk about the fact she was doing it?

[00:11:03]I believe so.

[00:11:07]Did you eventually meet um in person with law enforcement? I did.

[00:11:14]Do you recall how far after Alex passed that happened? It was a couple days.

[00:11:25]We're hitting the pause button on this testimony from Derek Pedregon to highlight the shift that has happened in his testimony. Let's bring in our guest who is standing by for us with analysis.

[00:11:36]McKenzie Joy Brennan joins us, trial attorney. So good to see you, McKenzie.

[00:11:40]Uh tell me what you think about Derek Pedron's testimony because the way it started was the prosecution got out all of the bad facts. He admits abuse of the defendant, his girlfriend, bashing her head into a wall several times. He also uh played the videos that she recorded of him where he's belligerent, he's drunk, he's saying terrible things. But now we are hearing him from a father standpoint. He's even emotional. What's your take on how he's doing?

[00:12:09]Yeah, I I don't know. First of all, it's great to be back despite the circumstances. It's great to see you. Um I I don't know if the the jury is going to have as short an attention span as I think this shift would require for it to work. Um I mean, the evidence that they brought out just a few minutes ago is really awful and I think um he's a bad witness. It's It's clear that he did not remember a certain number of things that he was supposed to say. He's very very curt. I think it it crosses over from flat affect into curt and even as he's in this emotional phase of his testimony, um it feels almost combative and I think it while we do all grieve in our own way, it's really hard to not make a leap between being curt and being somewhat aggressive on the stand even when you're feeling something like this and the jury imagining that he might have the capacity to be abusive. And remember every example of him being abusive, having that capacity, of him being neglectful, you know, drinking while on probation and thus making it easy for him to be taken away, all of those could create reasonable doubt in her being the one to be abusive.

[00:13:24]>> are so right, McKenzie, and that's all the defense needs. They need this situation where investigators simply didn't look in the right direction or didn't take everything into account.

[00:13:34]Let's talk about what he's also saying, which could be helpful to the prosecution, that he was in jail when he learned that AJ passed. And he had a no-contact order, he wasn't supposed to be in the home, but he did see AJ within 24 to 48 hours before his death. So, that's where the defense is trying to go, that these were injuries that slowly manifested into the tragic death.

[00:13:58]Yeah, I think that's going to be so key.

[00:13:59]What what medical evidence they have and how plausible it is of what the injuries were, whether they could possibly have been something cuz you know, you think of head injuries and and things like that, even something metabolizing through your system, it's very plausible and you do see occasions where somebody has a head injury the night before and the real damage doesn't come until, you know, hours later and then it's it's really dire. So, I think bringing that evidence out is going to be so key. You know, I was just listening to Andrea Dunlop's podcast and I think she's been on Court TV even talking about it, how a lot of child abuse cases that failed, the reason that they failed is because you have two unreliable narrators as caretakers for this child.

[00:14:45]And thus, there's always going to be reasonable doubt about the other one and who did it. So, the medical evidence is going to have to prove whether or not there's a question here. Yeah, in so many cases we see both people in their lives, both parents, she's someone who was also raising this child, that was her boyfriend's child. We see both of them sitting there, that's not the case here. McKenzie, stand by, we've got a lot more to talk about, but we want to get to our break. When we come back, more of Derek Pedrin's direct examination in the case over his son, little [music] AJ's death.

[00:15:23]Welcome back to Court TV Live. Let's get you back inside of a Wisconsin courtroom where a child's death is at the center of this contentious courtroom battle.

[00:15:31]Prosecutors say Josie Dietzman abused and killed 6-year-old AJ Pedrin, but the defense pushes back hard claiming the real story points to the child's father.

[00:15:40]And that father is on the stand, Derek Pedrin. He's been testifying about how after his son died, investigators approached him about getting help learning more information about Josie including tapping his cell phone so that he could call her and have conversations with her after the death. Let's listen in.

[00:16:01]reported with the assistance of law enforcement? Yes. Have you had the opportunity to review these files again recently? Yes. And um is the audio you heard a fair and accurate representation of the phone calls that you had with Ms. Dietzman on March 27th, 2023? Yes. Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of exhibit number eight and ask to publish.

[00:16:21]No objection. Received. Publish.

[00:16:32]>> [clears throat] >> I will play first file.

[00:17:15]John.

[00:17:18]Hello.

[00:17:20]Hello.

[00:17:21]Yeah.

[00:17:23]The cops just left my work.

[00:17:25]For what?

[00:17:27]Uh they told me that Alex did not overdose.

[00:17:32]What?

[00:17:34]Alex didn't overdose.

[00:17:36]What are they saying?

[00:17:39]You need to tell me.

[00:17:41]Cuz that's what I'm told.

[00:17:43]What did they say?

[00:17:45]There's no pills in his stomach, Josie.

[00:17:49]So what happened?

[00:17:52]You tell me.

[00:17:53]You're the only one that was there.

[00:18:00]There was no pills in his stomach whatsoever.

[00:18:08]Then what was the cause of death?

[00:18:11]They didn't tell me what the cause was.

[00:18:16]All I know is it's not an overdose.

[00:18:24]Well, there has to be a cause of death and they'd have to tell you.

[00:18:31]Well, they didn't.

[00:18:50]So what did happen? I don't know, Derek.

[00:19:02]Oh my god. Thank god. You are the only one that was there. So can you tell me what the hell happened? I'm I'm I am I am happy now. I'm I'm I'm not happy, but I'm happy that he I know that nothing's going to happen. You know, I'm I'm free. I'm done. You know, nothing's going to happen with me.

[00:19:26]Because he didn't >> he died of an internal injury.

[00:19:29]What do you mean an internal injury?

[00:19:36]He had a lacerated liver. So, can you tell me how the hell he got that?

[00:19:56]How does something like that happen and you not know when you were there?

[00:20:00]He was fine, Derek.

[00:20:05]Here.

[00:20:07]You were there.

[00:20:07]>> work all day. I came home >> there. You were there.

[00:20:13]You knew he didn't feel good. You knew he was sick from school. Maybe it was ongoing.

[00:20:20]Remember he was sick from school that Friday.

[00:20:31]Can you just tell me?

[00:20:33]Tell you what?

[00:20:43]the second file now.

[00:20:46]Before I do that, Derek, um let me back up just a minute. At the end of that first call, did you place another call then to Miss Eikman? We did.

[00:20:59]Second file now.

[00:21:02]Derek, You know what?

[00:21:04]I have nothing more to This is your first time to figure out what happened to my son. I wasn't there.

[00:21:13]The only person that was there was you.

[00:21:16]You can just claim Alex for taxes and leave the other kids in Can you We can wait a while. All right.

[00:21:30]Can you Did you end that call or did Ms. Diekman end that call?

[00:21:39]>> How did you feel after making those calls?

[00:21:42]Hurt.

[00:21:43]Why?

[00:21:44]Because I knew she was lying. Objection.

[00:21:47]Move to strike. Sustained. Move to strike, your honor. It'll be struck.

[00:21:52]Were you concerned she didn't have an explanation? Yes.

[00:22:07]Did Jenna eventually return to Wisconsin that spring?

[00:22:11]She did.

[00:22:13]And in April of 2023, did you and Jenna meet together with D.A. Tim Grynkiewicz and a DCI agent Jay Greeno?

[00:22:23]Yes.

[00:22:26]Were you asked about Xanax use at that meeting? I was.

[00:22:33]And what did you tell them?

[00:22:34]That I don't use it.

[00:22:36]>> [clears throat] >> Did you tell them about >> [snorts] >> um anything about Ms. Diekman using Xanax?

[00:22:42]Yes. What did you tell them? I told them that I would get it for from time to time.

[00:22:51]Is that the first conversation um that you had with law enforcement about Xanax?

[00:22:57]Yes.

[00:23:02]Do you remember if they brought it up or if you brought it up?

[00:23:06]I don't recall how it got brought up.

[00:23:08]>> [clears throat] >> At that meeting, did you also talk to them about other conversations that you had had in the recent past with Ms. Dykeman?

[00:23:19]Regarding?

[00:23:21]Um, had you recorded any conversations with Ms. Dykeman?

[00:23:24]>> Yes.

[00:23:27]Let's talk about that conversation that they just had and that we heard in open court. Trial attorney McKenzie Joy Brennan is still with us. McKenzie, that's a moment to hear the defendant being recorded right after the investigation into their son's death. It was Derek's son. And she assumedly didn't know that she was being recorded, so this it could be her raw reaction to hearing that this was not an overdose.

[00:23:54]What did you pick up on hearing her voice?

[00:23:58]Yeah, it it's boy, it's very interesting and so coincidental that I've actually been reading about liver injuries because of the the David case that Celeste River Hernandez had a laceration to her liver. And one of the things that I've read is that it it's a very quick way to to bleed out or it can be because the liver is so vascular. So that point alone gives me a hint of of where this testimony is going to go that if that was a cause or contributor to this child's death, it's less likely it seems to me that an injury would have happened the night before. But in terms of of their comportment, um, boy, they're they're both rather unemotive for me and that's coming from somebody who's been accused of being a flat affect person. Um, they both seem rather unbothered. It's interesting that she's willing to just cut ties with him because in a weird way I think somebody in in position who knew that they had caused a death would probably be more kissy-uppy to the other party.

[00:25:04]>> fair. They were already on the outs, but you think after this perhaps she'd lean together, but she says she's grateful that it's an overdose, which seems to be if she thinks that she's being investigated may not be her reaction.

[00:25:21]Yeah, I felt the same thing that that nothing really jumped out at me, which is why I was a bit confused because neither party it doesn't sway towards either party if you ask me. I felt that his affect was too flat and the fact that she had the response that she did made me feel that she didn't have a guilty conscience or even the inkling that she could have a reason to feel guilty. So, it's interesting for this to come out. So, interesting to hear her voice, but may not move the needle for these jurors.

[00:25:52]McKenzie, stand by. We've got to get to our break. When we come back, more of this trial. And you heard McKenzie mention the David [music] case. It is set to be in court to see if this preliminary hearing in the Cassie Hernandez [music] case is going to rather the Celeste Rivas Hernandez case is going forward with the preliminary hearing. So, [music] we'll keep you updated on that one. Don't go anywhere.

[00:26:11]You're watching Court TV.

[00:26:19]Welcome back to Court TV Live. I'm Julia Jenae. We're going right back inside of that Wisconsin courtroom where we are watching this pivotal cross-examination of a witness who is the father of the victim, a 6-year-old boy. His girlfriend at the time is who is on trial, Josie Diekman. And the prosecution says she is the one who through blunt force trauma and drug overdose killed little AJ Pederson. Derek Pederson is under cross by a defense team that says he is the one who battered his child resulting in his death. Let's listen.

[00:26:52]Mr. Pedrin, do you take any responsibility for or did you take any responsibility for getting the children to or from school when you No, I didn't have a vehicle.

[00:27:03]You didn't use Josie's vehicle?

[00:27:05]Not really.

[00:27:06]And did you take any responsibility for not communicating with the school about your children?

[00:27:12]No.

[00:27:14]Mr. Pedrin, when Josie would ask you to help and take the kids to school, you would get upset and angry with Is that correct? Wrong.

[00:27:41]Your Honor, I'm going to object to this as hearsay.

[00:27:44]It's statement of what it What? Say it again.

[00:27:51]The effect on the listener is what you're saying?

[00:27:55]Asking if Did he No, this is hearsay.

[00:28:06]Sustain. Mr. Pedrin, did you ever tell Josie that um or did you ever get angry at Josie for um because she asked you to take the kids to school? No. How many times did you take the kids to school? I didn't have a vehicle.

[00:28:20]So, zero?

[00:28:22]Correct.

[00:28:30]Mr. Pedrin, Josie would be the one who took care of the kids when she wasn't or when they weren't feeling well.

[00:28:36]Correct.

[00:28:38]She would take the kids to the doctor when they needed to be seen.

[00:28:41]Correct.

[00:28:43]She was the one who was taking Alex to the dentist when he needed to be seen.

[00:28:51]I don't recall that.

[00:28:53]You recall that that Alex needed um basic fillings and dental caps?

[00:28:57]Yes.

[00:28:58]And Josie was the one who arranged to have the insurance transferred to your BadgerCare. Is that correct?

[00:29:04]She took care of that. And Josie is the one then the one that took her to the dentist. Is that correct?

[00:29:11]I don't recall her taking him to the dentist. Well, clearly the dental the work got done. Correct?

[00:29:16]>> I don't recall her taking him to the dentist. Clearly you didn't take Alex to the dentist. Correct? Correct. Clearly Alex didn't take himself to the dentist.

[00:29:24]Correct? Correct.

[00:29:26]>> We infer then that Josie likely took Alex to the dentist. I still don't recall her taking him.

[00:29:31]You recall Alex losing one of his dental crowns shortly after he had that work done? Yes.

[00:29:37]And your reaction was to try shoving the cap back on his tooth. Is that correct?

[00:29:41]No.

[00:29:42]You're saying that you didn't say this to the investigators who interviewed you on February 21st of 2023?

[00:29:50]I don't recall.

[00:29:52]Transcript, please.

[00:30:38]No, not a question. I think they're waiting for a notepad.

[00:30:41]Just one or no?

[00:30:43]Yeah, that's okay.

[00:30:44]Do you have space?

[00:30:45]Okay.

[00:30:47]Yeah, if you need a notepad, just again, just ask them. Anybody need one right away?

[00:30:52]Okay. We'll get you a new one pretty quick here.

[00:30:56]Chris. Yeah.

[00:31:02]Can I describe the interview with Derek Hedlund for you?

[00:31:05]It's 12:23 and it's marked as 202.

[00:31:08]202.

[00:31:27]All right, so the transcript is 202, just so you know.

[00:31:29]>> Yes.

[00:31:56]All right.

[00:31:56]This bearing we'll come back to that.

[00:31:58]>> [clears throat] >> Your testimony on your direct examination was that Okay.

[00:32:11]My apologies, I had the wrong one. So, may I approach you, Adam? Yeah, go ahead.

[00:32:16]Adam, I'm showing you exhibit 202. This is a transcript that's been prepared of your interview with the investigators.

[00:32:21][snorts] Why don't you read those first few lines to yourself?

[00:32:39]The >> Does that appear to be um a comment that you made to investigators on February 21st of 2023 about Alex's dental crown falling off?

[00:32:52]Appears to be.

[00:32:54]And you appear to have said that quote um And he was right after I had we had the caps on. He was chewing a piece of gum one time, gum or taffy. It was either gum or taffy, but it yanked it out. So, I was like, "Man, you can't be doing that." So, I tried to put it back on, but I'm not a dentist. So, we took him back in and had it recapped. End quote.

[00:33:14]Is that correct? Correct.

[00:33:16]You tried putting the cap back on Alex, correct?

[00:33:19]Correct. And Josie took him to the dentist to get a refit, correct?

[00:33:23]Correct. Mr. Petito, I got to ask you. I was standing right next to you. Have you been drinking today? No.

[00:33:30]Not at all? None.

[00:33:32]You don't smell like alcohol right now?

[00:33:33]No.

[00:33:34]You're saying that you haven't used any drugs or alcohol at all today? No.

[00:33:41]Oh, wow. That's an interesting course for the cross-examination. Let's bring in trial attorney Mackenzie Joy Brennan to see what she thinks about where the defense was going right there. I mean, yeah, we hear sometimes about are you under the influence of anything, but the way he said it, it sounded like he smelled something today on him.

[00:33:59]Oh, yeah. Um boy, what a cliffhanger.

[00:34:02]Um it's so funny that that comes up because I thought early in his testimony that he sounded a little slurred or that he sounded similar to the way that he did in in recordings where he admitted to being drunk. Um wow, okay, interesting. Uh I guess we'll see where this goes.

[00:34:19]I The more I hear, the more I think that the only reason that he's on the stand was to get ahead of of certain things and not to offer much positive evidence because you know, the last evidence that he brought out was that he in the recording admitted to being the one procuring the Xanax. That puts both of them in equal control and maintenance of it at different times.

[00:34:43]And now in his investigation report, he's saying that that he never saw Josie even uh spank the children. And yet, he's on the record saying that he shoved a tooth cap in the child's mouth. Yeah, I think you're right about them wanting to get ahead of everything because he is the person the defense is pointing the finger at. And in that opening, I think it was a pretty compelling opening where they said, "Look, yes, this child was killed, but not by Josie." And they gave a lot of details about this witness. So, I think making sure they diffuse as much as possible is important. They're starting out with him being an absent father. You weren't there. You weren't the ones helping with the food and the cooking and the cleaning.

[00:35:25]Do you think that's effective as a beginning to this cross?

[00:35:29]It's funny you bring that up because as I was listening, I I thought that it could really be a double-edged sword depending on on the way that the jury frames that in their mind. Because on the one hand, it is really damning especially when you consider that the defendant herself is facing an extended chronic neglect charge that you know, even if he doesn't remember the dentist appointment, that potentially just means that he's unaware of his child's medical care that he's not even trying.

[00:35:58]On the other hand, it also shows that she was in control of of the child more than he was. And that could cut the other way.

[00:36:07]>> I agree. McKenzie Joy Brennan, thank you so much for your analysis this hour. We appreciate [music] it. After this break, Cody Thomas is taking over at the desk. He's got more of the Josie Dyckman murder trial happening in Wisconsin and developments in California. A singer David is expected in court. Stay with us.