Why This Former Muslim Now Boldly Defends Christianity

Ajouté : 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Muslims believe that there is only one God. He is the uncreated creator of the entire universe. He is [music] the greatest possible being. In fact, when you hear that phrase Allah Akbar, you hear it in the news, you hear it in the media, and usually it's accompanied by something terrible. [music] And what it means is God is greater. So to understand that, it is Islam was born in competition with other systems of belief and that Muslims believe that every other system of belief, even if it's part right, has something that insults God's greatness. And that's what was a big deal big big deal to me that the Trinity, the cross, and the incarnation were all things that insulted God's greatness and that's why I opposed them.

[00:00:38]All right, Abdu Murray, you are a well-known Christian apologist. I have a bunch of your books in my bookshelf. Uh, but you grew up a devout Muslim and that's where I want to camp uh as we get started. Uh, I want to know what did you think about Islam and Christianity when you were growing up and specifically uh looking at uh all these other religions?

[00:00:57]Why were you so convinced that Islam was the true way?

[00:01:01]>> Well, you know, it's interesting because I I initially believed in Islam for the reasons most people believe in Islam initially is because you were born into that religion and that's just the way it is, you know. Um, so I was raised um to be a serious Muslim and to take it seriously and I did. Um, and so I was raised in the United States and uh, like every sort of red-blooded American boy, I thought about the stuff that every blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blood red blooded American boy thinks about. You know, girls, sports, movies, you name it. But I also had this deep and abiding interest in things that were transcendent and transcended truth and spiritual truth meant a lot to me even as a young guy. Uh, so I would engage in conversations with Christians. Now, the reason why I I I I really clung to Islam was not just because I was born into it, but because being born into a Muslim family by and large, not not every single Muslim family is like this, but by and large meant that you spoke about it often and you spoke about it visav other religions. So, I call it oftentimes the informal academy of the American Muslim home. Um, now I'm sure in other parts of the world they would say the the British, the British Muslim home or whatever it is. Um, and part of that is you're taught arguments in favor of Islam. You know, the Quran's never been changed. Um, it's it's perfect in all that it says. It speaks on scientific miracles. Um, in other words, it speaks about science sc uh facts of science that we only now discovered, but it spoke about it in the seventh century.

[00:02:35]And of course, that means it's from God.

[00:02:37]all these kind of arguments, but you also learn arguments largely against other faiths. And because Christianity is the leading competitor to Islam in terms of faith traditions, um, we were taught how to respond to Christian claims and Christian objections to Islam itself. So, you got a heavy dose of apologetics, but also a heavy dose of palemics when you're a kid. Now, that shouldn't be too shocking to a lot of people because a lot of American homes that are Christian are like that. If you teach your kids in the way they should go and when they're old, they will not turn from it. So, you you you shore them up on the biblical truths and you help them to learn how to defend their faith and then even commend their faith to other people. And sometimes that means comparing the Christian faith to other faiths. So, this is not that shocking of a thing really when it comes down to it.

[00:03:30][snorts] Um, I was not raised in a radical home. I wasn't raised in a home where people were like having like you know um politically political I mean we we we talk about politics quite a bit but there was no anti-American sentiment none of that um but there was a sense of not only commend Islam to the world around you but because we were surrounded by Christians and by other faiths as well but by Christians primarily we were taught how to defend ourselves from becoming too assimilated in In other words, losing our Islamic tang, you know, as it were. We had that we wanted to keep that sort of tang of otherness. So, a big part of what what Muslims go through is they're not only taught what to believe about Islam, but how to defend against becoming Christian >> in a world that, you know, we thought everyone was trying to make us Christians. So, that really shored up my beliefs in it and and why I was pretty serious that it was the truth and everything else was either semi- true or totally false. But Islam was the only thing that was totally true.

[00:04:34]>> Well, I can I can relate with that uh in the sense that um I think for [clears throat] a lot of folks your religion, your your your what you were brought up in it becomes so much of your identity and obviously in Islam it's a huge part of your identity. Obviously, I've talked to a lot of folks who have left Islam and you know a lot of the main reasons and even Judaism, a lot of the main reasons aren't theology. The main reasons are cultural. I would be turning my back on my family. I would be bringing shame [snorts] upon those whom I love. I would be who am I if I'm not, you know, this, if I'm not that. And so it's it's a lot more than just theology.

[00:05:09]You know, I I have a um a lot of obviously closely close Jewish friends and what they'll say is you guys come to us with history, history, history or sorry, theology, theology, theology. But what we're pushing back against is history, history, history. Um and you guys are arguing with like Isaiah 53.

[00:05:25]It's like no, like we're let's talk about the Crusades. let's talk about it's like >> you just have to totally understand where that other person's coming from.

[00:05:32]>> And so my question uh I again before we get to the fact that you found Jesus and now you write books about the Christian faith.

[00:05:39]>> I want to sit in that moment uh and that that season where you are just totally convinced that Islam is the truth. Um what is like what would have been like I guess I guess if there was some Christian would have come up to you and said this you would have just been rattling off all of these things that they're wrong about. So, I guess like how how should someone start to even have conversations? Because again, it's there's such a a push back. There's such a a a reflex of no, no, no, no. I I don't even know how do you start to peel the onion back for someone who comes from an Islamic background because it's so entrenched almost in their DNA. Uh, and I know there's people watching this video or listening to this on a podcast that might come from Islamic background.

[00:06:26]And even even hearing this conversation is uncomfortable. It's destabilizing.

[00:06:32]It's frightening. Uh, and I get it. Like I I I don't want people to um to to have that reaction, but it's just so interwoven in someone that to to, you know, I guess an equivalent would be someone from a Christian background, you know, talking to someone like Bill Maher who's just like, "Oh, there is no God."

[00:06:50]And it's like whoa whoa. Uh and so you're almost protecting yourself.

[00:06:54]>> Uh because if if you if you don't have this then who are you? So I guess what would have been a helpful conversation to have uh when you were deep in Islam?

[00:07:02]>> Boy, that's a great question, man. I obviously have an entire talk I've I've given on that specific question. So I won't give the entire thing because we don't have time for that. But I will say I really do wish someone had talked about that level of entrenchment early on because you know as I've said in numerous places um it took me nine years to become a Christian as I started looking into things. Took me nine years but it was it didn't take me nine years to find the answers sufficient to become a Christian. Those are actually fairly easy to find. Um, it took me seven more years after the two years of searching to wrestle with what it means to become a Christian. And there was a there was a a um a subconscious resistance to it. I was saying things like, I want to go where the truth lies and I want to go where the truth is and all these things. But the reality was, man, that I didn't really mean it. You know, I said it, but I didn't really mean it. Um, and I even maybe surf surface level meant it, but deep down didn't mean it because I knew that it would cost me something and there would be an issue there, especially identity.

[00:08:06]When you brought that up um uh earlier, that is so important. And if if there's one thing I think that people should learn um about sharing their faith with people from other faiths, whether it's Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, you name it, is that when you're asking someone to change their worldview, you're not asking them to change an opinion.

[00:08:27]You're asking to change a conviction.

[00:08:30]And how I often put it is is an opinion you hold with an open hand. You're willing to like say, "Here, take a look at this opinion. If you can change it, go ahead, change it." And you can take it out and put another one in there. Uh, as long as it's good enough. A conviction you don't hold with an open hand. You hold with a closed fist. And I don't mean like a angry fist shaking. I mean you hold it close to your heart.

[00:08:48]And if you've ever tried to pry someone's fist open when they didn't want you to, it results in a lot of pain for both of you. Um, and so the the trick is to get their grasp to be a little bit less tight. Um, but understanding that sense of identity is so important. Um, someone once gave the illustration that if you drew a a square and you put a dot in the middle of it, in the west the square is individual identity and the dot is religious identity. In the east and the Middle Eastern mindset, even if they're raised here in the west, it's exactly the opposite that the square represents religious identity and the dot represents their individual identity.

[00:09:29]So, who they are religiously is permeates and saturates everything about them. So when you present them the gospel and they might hear an intelligent, thoughtful, emotionally stirring, biblically sound presentation of it, you're like, why is this really, really bright person so resistant? It's not because they're not bright. It's not because they don't see what you're saying. It's probably because they do see what you're saying, but they also see the consequences of what you're saying. And the consequence isn't my name will be written in the lamb's book of life. At least that is the consequence, but they don't see it. what they see is what could this mean for me after this is over. So for um so for Christians I would say look think about it if you were shown a box full of bones and someone could prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that those bones are Jesus's bones. I don't know how they would do it but let's say they could. um that means he's dead and he's not risen and you have incontrovertible proof that he's not risen. How hard would would it be for you even with that to change your mind and then you're thinking of right then and there? And Paul says, by the way, you should change your mind if that were the case.

[00:10:44]>> Um but what would Sunday look like? What would dinner conversations look like?

[00:10:50]What would your community be like? Now multiply that by about a thousand that fear and that's what you're dealing with. So I think it's a fundamental importance that early on in the conversations we have with people is once we understand what they believe and how they believe these things and what's going on in their minds and why they believe the Quran is the word of God or why is Muhammad a prophet or why is Jesus just a man? All those are great questions, but somewhere along the conversation early on, you should ask somebody, and I wish somebody had asked me this is, hey, let's say just for a moment that I could prove to you that Jesus is who the Bible says he is. And let's say just for a moment, for the sake of argument, um, that you agreed with me. And let's just say for the sake of argument that you became a Christian.

[00:11:37]What would happen next?

[00:11:38]And then let them fill in the gap because they might say, "What do you mean? What do you mean?" Like, "Well, how would it go with your family? How would it go with your community? How about your own sense of identity? What would happen? Just curious." And then, "Well, what would happen if you changed?" I'm like, "Okay, fair enough.

[00:11:56]I would say that it would up it would upend everything in my life. Is it fair to say it would upend everything in your life, too?" And then I would ask them this follow-up question. And I wish somebody had asked me this earlier is given those consequences, are you willing to consider the possibility that those consequences are more important or more urgent than the answers we're all trying to wrestle with.

[00:12:24]>> And then I think that that sets the now even if they say no, no, no. I I go with the truth lies. Now they know it. And now they know that you know it. Um and that would further the conversation. You don't need to get them to have a confession. You don't need that. All you need to them to know is that they're confronting the reasons they don't want to agree with you. Um, and that's a big part of I think opening up the gate. So, I think that I wish that had been asked of me earlier.

[00:12:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, half of my my whole dad's side of the family is from from India and so they're Hindu and there is um there is a deeply cultural thing about them leaving Hinduism which would be hard. Um, but there isn't this clash. What I mean by that is I feel like Islam and Judaism specifically um has had so has had centuries of tension with the Christian sphere. And so I when I talk to my Jewish friends, it's so much more about the Crusades, about the Inquisition, about Russian pilgrims, about the Holocaust that happened in a Christian country where it isn't even like, okay, great, like this is Yeshua dude. Like it's more like I would be turning my back against my ancestors who survived Awitz, who surv who survived being kicked out of this country and kicked out of that country, forced conversions. Um I'd be turning my back on, you know, two millennia really of my ancestors um sticking up for themselves >> to [clears throat] now fall. And so it's almost not about theology. And I and I think it's probably similar in Islam. Um obviously with crusades and obvious, you know, I think a large part of people don't quite understand the history of the the two world views in the sense that Islam and I I it's it's fascinating to think about this. Islam was a couple battles away from like conquering all of Europe. You know, I you know, when you're in Spain, you think to yourself, wow, this is a really Roman Catholic country. It's like, okay, but this entire peninsula was at one point Muslim. You know, the the the Islamic world reached Vienna. I mean, there was a couple battles here and there uh and we could all be having a very different conversation. So, >> yeah, Charles Martell, >> yeah, >> changed history. Um or prevented history from changing. So, depend on your on your viewpoint. Raj, I want to say something about what you just said because it's so importantly powerful to understand is that and especially when you're dealing with Arab Muslims. Now you have Muslims around the world who share this sentiment as well, but especially with Arab Muslims because there's so much baggage that isn't even theological um or um creedle, but there's so much historical baggage. Now, I think that's true of of Jews. In fact, what's interesting is that um most of the Jews I know are secular Jews.

[00:15:14]They're Jews almost in an ethnicity sense uh as opposed to a religious sense. there's an identity there, but um the number of them who don't go to synagogue or go to a sort of the liberal synagogue just because it creates community as opposed to a relationship with God is pretty strong. But their resistance to Christianity isn't theological. Their their resistance to Christianity is because there is baggage. In fact, one friend of mine who's a Messianic Jew said, "You know, the reason why most Jews aren't Christians because other Jews aren't Christians." Um uh and he said, "That's the main reason." Like, wow. And it's because of all the things you mentioned well for the for Arab Muslims especially and probably other Muslims as well but Arabs especially because of the politics of the Middle East and because of you know right or wrong good bad or otherwise colonization of the Middle East by the British and the French and you know you name it um there's a lot of baggage with regard to um Roman Catholics and the Marinites and all that. So there's sectarian stuff. Lebanon, the country of of of my heritage, is went through a civil war because of this stuff. And then their government is split up along sectarian lines. So religion becomes very much of an us versus them kind of a thing. Even in the most harmonious senses, it's those people as opposed to our people. So you have Lebanese Christians and Lebanese Muslims and Shia and Sunni and Dus and all this stuff.

[00:16:45]And there is essentially no I didn't say no but um a fractured sense of what it means to be Lebanese. Um so the unification is fractured by religious differences and sectarian differences which means that's what you're doing. You you have to deal with that when you're talking to a Muslim. So yeah, there I I know many Muslims who will talk about those people and the tanks that had a cross on them that came into their village during a whatever situation and all they can remember is the stories about how those tanks ran over houses. Um now I realize some of that stuff the cross was abused in those instances. So you don't even have to go as far back as the crusades. You can go go back and again this is not about the rightness or wrongness of it but you can go back to 1947 and 1948 and the creation of the state of Israel. You can go back to the the the Lebanon war and the various wars between different factions in Lebanon and Israel and other things. All that stuff has creates baggage again irrespective of your opinion of those wars those are things that are in their minds. Mhm.

[00:17:52]>> So to become a Christian means I became one of them and they won, >> right?

[00:17:56]>> I can't have them win. And that's something you just got to confront. It's just a reality of it.

[00:18:01]>> Yeah. O that is so uh powerful and sticky and and that's that's why Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, and I'll tell you personally for me, one of the things that kept me a little longer in the nine-year journey that might have been shorter had had I been able to resolve this faster was I became a believer in June of 2000. Six months before that, what was everyone talking about? The Y2K bug. Everyone was talking about this weird thing where all the dates and all the computers weren't four digits. They were just two digits. So the last two digits were, you know, 1998, they were 98 instead of 1998. So when they switched over to 2000, they would revert back to zero. All the computers would would think that we're back to the 1900s and everything would cascadingly fail. Everyone was worried about that, right? So what ended up happening was, and this is during my exploration phase, I was seeing the credibility of the Christian faith grow more and more in my mind. The reality that the Bible is trustworthy, that what they wrote then is what we have now.

[00:19:03]that it's not only a preserved word, but it's preserved and true. That it tells me the truth about who Jesus of Nazareth was. That the resurrection evidence was very strong. All of this stuff was totally pointing me to the gospel message. But Y2K happens. Then there's various um conflicts in the Middle East.

[00:19:20]And because of the convergence of Y2K and this end of the world kind of mentality and what's going on in the Middle East, some of the loudest voices in Christendom, we're talking about ah this is how the one world government comes about and we're going to be raptured out, but this is going to be the great tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble and all this stuff. And in every one of those scenarios, my people were always the bad guy. Mh.

[00:19:44]>> Um, and so this message of for God so loved the world got twisted in my mind to for God so loved most of the world, but not necessarily you guys. Um, and um, that kept me away for a while.

[00:20:01]Again, not saying that that was fair.

[00:20:03]I'm just saying the reality of what I went through.

[00:20:06]>> Um, and so that was a barrier for me.

[00:20:09]>> Um, so this is things we have to we just have to take into account.

[00:20:14]Um, and I say this because what I want to bring to to to to your to your show is something hopefully of a unique perspective, which isn't just here's the five ways you can witness to a Muslim based on some issues with the Bible.

[00:20:27]Those are great and we should do that.

[00:20:28]I've been doing that, but you're hitting on something that's so I think often overlooked in our conversations with uh non-Christians, especially our Jewish and especially our Muslim friends.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, and and you have a bunch of books uh that address a lot of these situations. Uh, I I have I have a I have a a question about Islam.

[00:20:49]But before we get to that, um, I I gota I got to plug uh your new book. What's your new book called?

[00:20:54]>> It's called Fake ID: How AI and identity ideology are collapsing reality and what to do about it.

[00:21:02]>> So, we're [laughter] talking about the difference between Islam and Christianity and then AI, boom. But I, you know, it's funny. We've been doing a lot of stories recently about AI and uh you know the how that relates to faith.

[00:21:13]Um and so I definitely want uh because here's the thing. I have like all your books on my bookshelf. Uh and no this isn't a paid sponsorship. I just I just love you. I love your work. Uh and so I definitely want to give a shout out to your new book uh because I think it's going to be really powerful. Uh so we'll talk more about that book in a second.

[00:21:28]But while we're while we're talking about uh Islam and before we get to your your your conver conversion, I want to sit in this moment which is this. Um, I think for a lot of people in the West, Christians, let's just call it American Christians, uh, European Christians, when we think about Judaism, we're like, okay, basically the book until the New Testament.

[00:21:48]Got it. Uh, when it comes to Islam, it's like, okay, the Quran is their Bible, they're monotheistic, Muhammad is their uh, prophet. They think Jesus was the Messiah, but not the Christian Messiah.

[00:22:04]And that's basically where a lot of people's understanding of Islam kind of drops off. Um I think maybe a good question again before we get to why you found Jesus is what's some other things that's important to know about Islam, right? In the sense that all right this guy named Muhammad, he was in Arabia, he started in Mecca or Medina and it's it's it's kind of this like uh very very surface level understanding of Islam. So obviously this is not Islam 101. Uh but is there one or two things that's important for folks to know about Islam?

[00:22:37]>> Yeah. And I think the answer is definitely yeah. Um and these are the things I think are helpful to know about them. One is they are monotheists. Um Muslims believe that there is only one God. He is the uncreated creator of the entire universe. Uh he is the greatest possible being. In fact, when you hear that phrase Allah Akbar, you hear it in the news, you hear it in the media, and usually it's accompanied by something terrible. But the reality is that phrase, this is if if there's one thing you should know about Islam, it's this.

[00:23:04]That phrase Allah Akbar is actually found on the lips of the most peaceful Muslims you'll ever meet. Um, and what it means is God is greater. In fact, the phrase is so important to Muslims that it has a name. Much like the Hebrew Shama has a name here, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one. The phrase is so important they give it a name. Um uh that phrase Allah Akbar is called the takir and it's so important because it's the fundamental doctrine of Islam that God is incomparably great.

[00:23:36]There can be no great being greater than God. Now the reason why it's it's it's put in a superlative. it god is greater is because the Islam was birthed in the context of paganism of multiple gods and it was birthed in the in a context where Judaism and Christianity were already extent. They already existed in Arabia when Muhammad uh began his um sort of religious career. So originally Muhammad wanted to make allies out of Jews and Christians. And in fact, you can see this because the Quran was revealed over 23 years and u according to Muslims and in the beginning the the verses the earliest verses of the Quran are very Christian and Jew friendly. Um because they're monotheists they they believe in a long line of prophets that Islam would recognize as people who were prophets and patriarchs. Um and they would of course append that with Muhammad as well. Once the Christians and Jews started saying no, I don't think you're a prophet. um certainly not a profit from the line that we're talking about.

[00:24:39]The hostility started to grow towards Christians and and Jews as well. And you can see it in the progression in the Quran. Um but the idea that God is greater is that it be it started off God is greater than all these pagan deities who don't even exist in Islam.

[00:24:57]And then it was he is greater than the partners that Jews and Christians ascribed to him. So he became a The idea is he's better than all of your conceptions of who God actually is as well. So to understand that it is Islam was born in competition with other systems of belief and that Muslims believe that every other system of belief even if it's part right has something that insults God's greatness.

[00:25:24]And that's what was a big deal big deal to me that the Trinity, the cross, and the incarnation were all things that insulted God's greatness. And that's why I opposed them because I wanted to believe in a God who was ultimately the greatest possible being. But that can be a great thing to center around with our Muslim friends.

[00:25:40]>> Okay, let's get to uh the pivot. Um let me let me do devil's advocate.

[00:25:46]>> Obviously I'm a follower of Jesus, but >> let me [clears throat] try talk as a as a as a as a Muslim. Okay, God is one.

[00:25:53]There is one God.

[00:25:56]>> Yet this God is having a son, >> right? So, did he and I I don't mean this begrudgingly. I don't mean this condescendingly. I actually hear this quite often. So, this isn't a knock.

[00:26:08]This isn't me trying to be um flippant.

[00:26:10]So, you're saying like he hooked up with Mary and and made this kid named Jesus and now there's this other thing called the Holy Spirit. It just it seems very pantheistic or at least, you know, trinitarian like in in a sense that there's multiple gods. It seems very confusing to the idea of Allah and that's it. Uh how do you even get to that point?

[00:26:32]>> Yeah. Uh so this is actually those are the objections I would raise almost exactly the same way you just raised it back when I was a Muslim as well. Um so uh how I how I respond to it is you you're really talking about two issues there. You're talking about the incarnation and the trinity. Of course they're related, but they're actually two different things. So the first thing I would I would I would say is that um nowhere in the Bible and in Christian theology do we have the idea that God takes Mary as a consort uh in some kind of way whether romantic or sexual or any other ways. Rather we see that God creates a flesh an actual human flesh baby as Muslims would agree by the way in Mary's womb. They have no problem with this because Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. But what we believe is not that Jesus is a half demigod like Hercules or Thor or something. Rather, we believe that Jesus is 100% human. He has every what I mean by that is he has 100% of the qualities required to be human. But he also has 100% of the qualities required to be God. So Jesus is one person with two natures. He has a human nature and a divine nature. And the divine nature isn't mixed with the human. It's a union in one person. But the divine doesn't bleed into the human. The human doesn't bleed into the divine. And so the divine was never born. The divine is given.

[00:28:06]That's why Isaiah 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born, the human child is born. and unto us a son is given. The son is not born. The son is given. So we already see that the incarnation is not about God creating another god. Rather the second person of the trinity and this goes back to the trinity of course we'll get there in a second. Incarnates himself in the in the the person of Christ and adds to that person of Christ a human nature and a divine nature. And they don't mix. They're eternally distinct, but they're in union with each other and in communion with each other in the person of Jesus. So, it's not a demigod. It's just not the same thing.

[00:28:50]Muslims often want to camp on Jesus is just human. Well, we know he's human.

[00:28:54]We're good with that. That's what hypothetic union teaches. He is 100% human. But you can't forget the God part. And that's the part where they have a hard time with it. It's like, well, if you just say, can God incarnate himself into the world? Of course he can. Muslims believe, for example, that God spoke to to Moses out of a burning bush. The Quran literally says it.

[00:29:14]What's the problem there? There's no problem there. What's the problem here?

[00:29:18]I don't see a problem. Um, but then it leads to the trinity. And this part is something I actually worked this out after I became a Christian, not before uh on the Trinity stuff. So, I believed in the incarnation of God in Christ um solidly when I became a Christian and the reality of the cross and all these things, but the Trinity I had to like say, "Okay, all right. I'm going to believe that on faith, don't get it and I may never get it." Well, the good news is I kind of get it. Um and when I say that, what I mean is is that the Trinity teaches something about God that is um apprehensible but not comprehensible. In other words, we can get close, but we can't fully completely apprehend it. So, we can't comprehend it. Um, and that shouldn't bother us, by the way. So, if a Muslim says, "Well, God is so complicated in in Christianity, you need a PhD in theology in order to understand it." It's like, "Well, wait, is that a is that a is that a mark against Christianity or in favor of Christianity?" Because if God is so simple, he is one through and through.

[00:30:20]He is unipersonal, one in his nature, and one in his person, just like us.

[00:30:25]Sounds like you made him in your image. He's a little too easy to understand in Islam in my in my opinion. Um rather what the trinity teaches is that God is one in his nature and three in his personhoods.

[00:30:39]So and that's not a contradiction because when we say person we think of a single being like you're a person Raj and you're a single human being. I'm a person and I'm a separate and distinct human being.

[00:30:51]When the the Christians talk about God being in one God in three persons, we're not saying one God in three gods, we're not saying that. When we say personhood, what we mean is a center of consciousness at the father and the son and the holy spirit are three distinct centers of consciousness who share the divine nature. So if I were to hold up my water bottle and I were to say, what is this? It's got a nature. Its wheness is non-living thing. If I were to point at me and I would ask you what is this?

[00:31:24]What am I? My essential nature, my whatness is living thing. So I have a nature and the bottle has a nature. But the bottle doesn't have personhood. It has no center of consciousness. So who the bottle is is different than what the bottle is because the bottle has no wheness. But I do. So I have a what and a who. And the what and the who are not the [clears throat] same thing. Which means when you say I have one what and one who, I have two different things, a nature and a personhood. God simply has one what and three who's. That's not a contradiction. So that means that the God of the Bible could possibly be trinitarian with that doesn't prove he is. It just means that it's possible. It's logically possible for God to be trinitarian. Now, do I know what it's like to be a tripersonal being? No. Because I'm unpersonal. Similarly, I don't know what it's like to be an eternal being. Why? I had a beginning. And every Muslim uh would acknowledge that God is eternal.

[00:32:25]And just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. So God can be triune. Then of course the Bible teaches it. And then I would say the last thing on this would be that the bi that that I think going back to Allah Akbar, this idea of God being great. If God is truly the greatest possible being, then he would need nothing to be who he is and what he is. Both the Quran and the Bible describe God as inherently relational. It is not an incidental characteristic. It is a fundamental characteristic of God that he is relational. He is alman, he is alraim, he is al-wad, he is uh alak, he is um you know I could name a bunch of different things that God is. Um uh he is the jabar. He is, you know, he has all these various things. He's merciful and compassionate and kind and friendly and generous. You have all these things.

[00:33:17]Those are all relational qualities, right? In fact, those are among the 99 beautiful names of God. Well, go back to the trinity. If God is truly the greatest possible being, then he would need nothing to be who he is. If God is relational and God is the only uncreated being, that means that there was a time when nothing existed but him. And if that's the case, then in order for him to be relational, he has to create something outside of himself to be himself.

[00:33:46]>> And that seems to me to be a God who needs something. The trinity actually solves the issue because if God exists as one in his nature and three in his centers of consciousness, then the father loves the son, the son loves the spirit, the spirit loves the father and the son. And so on it goes in the community of the trinity for eternity.

[00:34:07]He never needs anything to be relational because by his very nature and his existence he defines relationality. So to me that is a god who is truly great.

[00:34:18]>> Wow. Wow. That is so profound. You know, you and I have talked about that in the past, and I actually uh bring up that exact point to a lot of my friends, which is the idea of if God is love, then he would have to create something to love. If he if there wasn't an ability to love within himself, uh which man, I think if you extrapolate that, like if you come from Islamic background, just sit with that for a second. all of these attributes that Allah apparently is loving blah blah blah blah blah he can't do that >> he can't be that >> without the help of creation >> which if you just sit there logically for a second that starts to pop some balloons in your mind was like wait a minute and I I think that is what makes right the Bible's explicit God is love.

[00:35:14]>> Mhm.

[00:35:15]>> But if God wasn't a trinitarian entity, that would be an impossibility until he popped Adam onto the scene.

[00:35:24]>> Right.

[00:35:26]I mean, I think that is one of the more profound philosophical >> slam dunks actually where it's like you're attributing all these things to this thing that he can't be in in of himself. Wow. I think that's a really I mean I think that is worth a podcast in and of itself. Just that concept. Uh on the lighter side, when you were talking about the who's and the what and the whats, I was this sounds like a Dr. She was ridd [laughter] but man that's the best part about a podcast. You can you have time to laugh. You don't have to just be all all >> right. Exactly. Exactly. My daughters make fun of me whenever I talk about whess [laughter] and the what's in the >> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:36:09]>> That's good stuff brother. Wow. I think that you know I think that we have this uh propensity in these kind of discussions just to breeze onto the well what's the next point? What's the next point? Mhm.

[00:36:20]>> Um, but if you come from an Islamic background and you're listening to this or you're watching this, I think that is just something that's one of those little like seeds I think you just have to wrestle with for a minute. It's like, okay, what are all the attributes of Allah?

[00:36:34]And what are all the attri attributes of Yahweh?

[00:36:39]And if Yahweh has always existed as one and being, three in persons, he is love. He is all of these things that the Bible said he says he is. But if Allah is by himself utterly lonely since the creation of the universe, is he love? Can he can he love? What does he love?

[00:37:04]>> Yeah.

[00:37:06]>> I think that's actually one of the more powerful uh apologetic arguments um that that can be made. Um, >> and so one thing to make sure is because if someone is listening to this and they're thinking, well, come on. He he he just because he doesn't have something love doesn't mean he's not a loving being. Okay. What what you're talking about though is he has the potential to love. Um, and there are certain characteristics that are fundamental and certain characters that are incidental. Like God can't be merciful until there is a sin to create to be merciful toward. Um but see Muslims have this thing about God being a monad and that he is an undifferiated absolute which means that there is no ever never any change immutability in God. Um and uh for the for the large part Christians agree with that but we have a little more nuance to it which means that if God has attributes and God is undifferentiated he's an undifferiated absolute then that means that not only does God have attributes but God is his attributes his attributes are actually identical with him. So if God is just that means justice is God.

[00:38:12]And Christians don't say that love is God. Christians say that God is love.

[00:38:16]Because if love is God, then love is its own kind of God. But Christians say that God is love, which means that love find its root in the very nature of God. So um that's an important thing for us to wrestle with even further. I mean there's a lot more to go into all this.

[00:38:31]Um but uh yeah, I think this is this is to me was a very powerful this was postcon conversion. I didn't think of this before I became a Muslim. Sorry, before I became a Christian. I thought of this after. But other things led me in terms of God's greatness to become a Christian. Well, Abdu, we've been talking for 38 minutes and we're just getting started. So, if you're if you are watching this on YouTube, uh comment uh part two part three with Abdu because we're not going to get into all of it right now. There's so much to discuss.

[00:39:00]Um we try to keep these around 45 minutes, but man, we're just we're just scratching the surface. All right, let me let me go to one more that I think I find I find really interesting and and uh I think in instead of going straight into the apologetics uh your conversion story, we're just going to have to do a part two. Let's just be honest.

[00:39:18]>> I think one of the one of the more interesting things is the idea of uh what is the center of gravity for Islam versus Christianity in Jews. Let me put it this way. um the tabernacle that God had Moses set up and then David uh well actually Solomon brought into the temple. We know where that was. We know why it was there. You know on the peak of Mount Mariah uh you know Solomon's temple was there clearly. We have archaeological evidence. Uh then we have the destruction of by the Babylonians in 586 BC. The rebuilding of it during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah the destruction of it in 70 AD. We know where it is. We know that the temple mount it's clear. There's no ambiguity about it. This is where uh the Jewish people created a temple to Yahweh. Uh it was destroyed near 70 AD by the Romans.

[00:40:03]Blah blah blah blah. That is something that I think is very un there was never a pagan shrine there. Maybe there was actually there was uh the Romans put something on top of that after they destroyed it. But my my point is it wasn't it wasn't like that used to be a maybe it was 4,000 years ago some Canaanite put something there. But my point is we know the the the lineage of the tabernacle. what the uh the ten commandments were, what the ark of the covenant, where it was, the temple built by Solomon and blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:40:33]I think a lot of folks uh on the from the west are just like, what is everyone doing going to this random place in the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia circling this black box? What's what's in there? Like what what's going on in there? And then if you watch these videos on Instagram of people making the pilgrimage at the Hajj, they're going to Mecca and they're like freaking out trying to kiss this thing, it's like, boy, that sure does look awfully pagan.

[00:41:00]Um, I guess let's let's end it here. Uh, and I know there's so much more, my friend. We got to talk about your book.

[00:41:07]We'll do round two. We will. Um, what is happening with this black box and why is it like a fundamental pillar of Islam?

[00:41:14]the other things that kind of make sense, right? There is one God. Allah Muhammad is prophet. Uh we're kind of cool with the idea of some of these other prophets like Moses. Jesus is the Messiah, but he didn't die. It's like, okay, there's a lot differences, but same same. What's going on in Mecca?

[00:41:32]>> So, um Mecca is actually the place where Muhammad was from. He's he's from Mecca.

[00:41:36]He goes to Medina after his message is not accepted. uh and he's well he's accepted by a few a few people but then it's largely rejected by the Meccans. He goes amasses a following comes back to Mecca and essentially conquers it without shedding any blood at all. Um and so um the Cabba so the black box is called the Cabba um and it is considered essentially the the center of religious life. Um some Muslim um uh traditions will have that uh Abraham set up the very first altar of uh of worship to the one and only singular god um [clears throat] with his son um Ismael uh there that's where the first shrine to Allah was. Um then it became paganized because the pagans did take over uh Arabia as it were and so the the the Cabba and the surrounding area does have a lot of pagan roots to it. So um it was a place of pilgrimage for many many pagans to come on an annual basis and perform various pilgrimage to pagan pagan deities there. uh when Muhammad um comes back and takes over Mecca, he in the Muslim mindset reclaims Mecca for the sake of the one true God, ousts the pagans and um in commemoration of the fact that it was the original place established by Abraham and Ismael uh who they believe is um uh the son of the promise so to speak um of Abraham's. So that's why it's so important to them.

[00:43:10]It's considered the center of religious life because it is the establishment of monotheism on the Arabian Peninsula or even in the world. Um so that's where um that's what's going on there. That's why the the kibla the kibla is the direction of prayer. Muslims all around the world will face Mecca no matter where they are in the world when they do their prayers because that is the center of spirituality in the world. That's the most holy site in all of Islam. even above and beyond Muhammad's actual uh burial uh plot. Um now the stone the stone uh is this black stone that many consider imbued with some kind of supernatural significance because it sended from heaven and they try it's embedded in the side wall of the cabba of the the black cube and because millions of Muslims will come and circumambulate the cabba it is considered like this like thing if you can get there and you can touch it and you can kiss it and adore this sort of gift from God. There's a lot of mystery behind it, frankly. And um some Muslims are embarrassed by the fact that that is a thing that Muslims try to kiss because it looks a little on the pagan side. Um and uh so there's some Muslims who are like, "No, no, just it's there. It's got its own history, but don't idolize it."

[00:44:23]These kind of things, but that's what's going on there. Um and every Muslim is required during their lifetime if they're financially and physically able to go to Mecca and do this. It's called the Haj, this pilgrimage around the Cabba.

[00:44:36]>> Well, that's what I I I do find interesting is uh [clears throat] the the once you start kind of peeling back the onion of and I you know I I I think maybe for 14 centuries, what kind of preserved the Islamic world was that there was no outside voice, right? That there was no ability to evangelize. And if you did a good job evangelizing in some place like Yemen or Oman 500 years ago, you probably wouldn't last very long with your head.

[00:45:08]>> Um, and so for now, for the first time, videos like this, like the one that we're currently doing, >> can be seen in places like Iran. Well, maybe not Iran, that's a totally different story right now. Yeah, >> let's be praying for the Persian people.

[00:45:21]uh but let's just say Saudi Arabia uh the UAE uh Qatar um where you know people for the first time are being able to say you know and I don't want to be flippant and I don't want to be disrespectful but let's examine the life of Muhammad like who did he marry who did he kill and it's like yikes uh once you start you know learning more about his life it it it's I don't mean again no not it's so hard to not sound disparaging but I I I I just think that it's important for us to not compromise truth. It's like if you just do a little bit of digging about like how Islam spread and I don't know uh I guess maybe this is the last question because again we're going to have to have part seven Abdu before we go before my last question promote your book. This is not a plug from I'm not getting paid. I just love Abdu Murray. So let's hear about your book brother.

[00:46:11]>> Yeah. So Fake ID um is all about these two cultural tsunamis that I think are taking over our sense of reality. In fact, it's based on this idea of reality collapse. And so what I argue is that we're experiencing a shared collapse of our understanding of reality driven by these two powerful forces. One is identity ideology, which tells us that we can forsake biological givenness, but it pressures us to elevate subjective feelings over biological reality. Um, the other one is what I'm calling AI mania. Now, I'm not against AI, but I am against our unfettered adoption of it and that what it means for what it means to be human and how it's really taking a look at humanity and saying you're nothing but a machine. See, we made a machine that can do what you do even better. So, you don't really need a soul for all of that. But these two forces together collapse our sense of what it means to be human. And I go into some detail about this as well. And um what I'm arguing is that as we see our sense of what it means to be human fracture because of these two things that center on what is your real identity and it providing fake versions of it um we can ride out the cultural tsunamis by anchoring ourselves in a transcendent understanding of what it means to be human. So I give arguments for not only the existence of God, but God as the basis, the biblical God as the basis for a robust and beautiful and true understanding of what it means to be human so that we won't be, you know, tossed about by the waves that are coming.

[00:47:43]>> So Abd Murray in his spare time thinks about the theological differences between Christianity and Islam and the AI implications on the theology and humanity of uh personhood going forward.

[00:47:56]So obviously casual things. Uh but you know what what's what's great about my friend Abdi Murray is he's also a normal dude. He's uh you know you're one of those uh rare [clears throat] apologists who can be uh an academic uh just brilliant whiz kid and then at the same time you can be a normal a normal bro. You know you went to the University of Michigan. I went to the wait for it Ohio State University. So we do have conversations off camera that are that are nice and fun. Uh but but uh yeah, let me ask you this last question, my friend. Uh you're just a joy to be around.

[00:48:32]>> Um last question. Uh and this can be short, this can be 30 seconds, this can be four minutes, I don't care. Um my friend here comes from Islamic background and they're listening to this, they're watching you now. What would you say to them?

[00:48:45]I would say um depending on your seriousness of how serious you take Islam um there is something the Christian faith affirms about your belief and it's that you want to worship a God who is incomparably and truly and utterly great. And the Christian faith affirms that as something that is indelibly marked on you because you're made in God's image. However, the question isn't is God great. The question is, does Christianity or Islam better explain it? His greatness. And one of the things that got me there was that the God who is truly great would be the kind of God who would reveal a book which is the Injil and the Tawat and the Zabur, the Psalms of David and the five books of Moses and then be able to in his greatness and in his greatness want to preserve that word forever.

[00:49:41]not let 600 years pass between the time it was so corrupted that people would believe blasphemous lies about it and then the advent of the Quran.

[00:49:50]And then when you look at that book that God has in fact preserved the Bible, what you see is a God who is truly the greatest possible being because the greatest possible being would express the greatest possible virtue which is love in the greatest possible way. And what is the greatest possible way to express love? It's clearly and obviously self-sacrifice.

[00:50:11]And that's exactly the central point of the gospel message. So if you want to believe in a God who is truly great, consider what the Christians say and what the Bible says. Not what Christians say, but what the Bible has to say and what Jesus himself has to say about what it means for him to be the incarnation of the greatest possible being.

[00:50:35]>> Abdu Murray, my friend, uh you are a joy. uh pick up his uh his new book.

[00:50:41]It's called what again?

[00:50:42]>> Fake ID. How AI and identity Ideology are a collapsing reality and what to do about it.

[00:50:49]>> My friend Abdu Murray, we will have uh episode two and three here uh eventually because there's just so much more to get into. But as for now, my friend, thank you and God bless. You too.