People Don't Cheat For The Reason You Think | Dr Tara

[00:00:00]Around 70% of people cheat. Why do people cheat? They don't feel desired and loved. There is strong sense of sexual dissatisfaction. They are just psychologically.

[00:00:13]Do you think that cheating is the cheaters's fault or the victim's fault?

[00:00:17]It's both people's fault. A lot of people struggle with the idea of saying I intentionally cheated. There is a narrative of it just happened. You don't think that people can get into situations where they didn't intend to cheat. No. If you ever feel like you have to hide, uh-oh, that's a sign. How did you stop becoming so jealous in your relationship? I have worked on myself so much. If my partner chooses to do extracurriculars outside of our relationship, it has nothing to do with me. Look at me now. Non- monogous. Like my husband just had sex with a woman like the other day.

[00:00:53]Most people think that cheating is simple, that someone betrays you, and that's the end of the story. But what if it's not really that simple? What if cheating isn't just about betrayal, but it's actually about our identity, desire, and everything we're too uncomfortable to admit? Today, I'm in LA sitting down with Dr. Tara, one of the leading voices when it comes to intimacy, relationships, and modern love. You might know her from her content online, her expert advice on celebs go dating, or from my podcast last year where we spoke about the monogamy myth. Today, we're getting into the conversation most people avoid.

[00:01:33]That's the point of the show, but we're actually talking about why do people actually cheat? Can you still love someone and lose desire for them? And the big one, can a relationship ever truly recover from infidelity? This is one of those episodes that might challenge what you think you know about relationships, but it will also help you understand yourself on a much deeper level. If you're new here, this is a millennial mind where we challenge the way that you think so that you can change the way that you live positively.

[00:02:05]So, if you haven't already, make sure you hit that subscribe, follow, like button, whatever platform you're watching this on, because every week we bring you conversations that will genuinely shift your perspective and maybe change your mind. Let's get into today's episode. It's a really good one.

[00:02:22]Tara, >> yes. Hello.

[00:02:26]>> Welcome to sunny California.

[00:02:27]>> Welcome to the first episode of my podcast in LA. I'm so excited.

[00:02:31]>> I'm so blessed to have you as my first guest.

[00:02:33]>> Thank you. So much has happened since we last spoke. We spoke a year ago.

[00:02:37]>> Yeah.

[00:02:37]>> And you know, I saw you and I was like, "Wow, you look amazing."

[00:02:40]>> Yeah. It's from my gallbladder surgery.

[00:02:42]I can't eat much.

[00:02:44]>> That's so sad that you had that. But you also have a boyfriend.

[00:02:47]>> Brilliant side effect. I'll take it.

[00:02:50]>> At least you're not on a Zeic. Um, you have a boyfriend, which we're going to talk about.

[00:02:54]>> I mean, I I have multiple partners.

[00:02:57]>> You have multiple partners, which we're going to speak about. You've written a book.

[00:03:00]>> Yeah. Launched this year.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. and I might be moving to LA. So, everything's working out.

[00:03:05]>> So many things are happening in our lives, but great things.

[00:03:09]>> I want to talk to you today about cheating. And the reason why I want to talk about this topic is because I think a lot of people in their 30s, late 20s, who have been married or dating the same person for a long time, go through this period in their life where they've lost that attraction with their partner.

[00:03:25]They've lost that connection. They've lost that intimacy.

[00:03:29]And a lot of the time they cheat. Now, the last time I had you on the podcast, one of the things that I found so fascinating was the stat that you told me that around 70% of people cheat. And that's the people that report it.

[00:03:42]Remember, like social science doesn't know everything because people can lie, >> right?

[00:03:47]>> If I had to do a guesstimate >> of how many people have cheated, we will include all types of cheating. Yeah. So, not only physical, sexual cheating, we will also include emotional cheating.

[00:04:01]outside flirting, computer mediated cheating, like all of those things. I would say 90% of people have.

[00:04:08]>> Wait, hold on. I didn't know about all those different types. I just knew of emotional cheating and then physical cheating. So, talk to me that through the different types of cheating. The most common one that people refer to is sexual cheating. So, sexual infidelity like in social science, we call cheating infidelity, right? So sexual infidelity is the number one concept that people think of when they think of the term cheating.

[00:04:36]>> But then as you said, there's also emotional cheating. So emotional infidelity is actually even more common than sexual infidelity, >> right?

[00:04:45]>> Uh there's other physical infidelity. So maybe you're you don't have sex, maybe there's no penetration, but there's physical infidelity, which typically it can be coupled with emotional infidelity, like if you go on a date, for example, and you're holding hands and you know, all of that.

[00:05:04]>> Uh there's also computer mediated infidelity, which is cheating online >> and that can be like chatting with people online behind your partner's back. uh saying like, "Oh, but it's just like nothing. It's innocent." Things like that, but it's, you know, hiding.

[00:05:22]There's also infidelity that typically involves actions that are meant to be a secret um but cannot be qualified under sexual or physical or emotional. But if you're hiding and it's surrounded by secrecy, it's also infidelity, which we just call like miscellaneous infidelity.

[00:05:49]>> So now that you know there's so many ways to cheat, >> do you believe me that 90% of people have >> Yeah. 100%.

[00:05:57]>> You know what I mean? Like even if you have this feeling in your body or in your mind that you're really attracted to someone, maybe a coworker, >> but you decide not to pursue anything because you're with your partner and you love your partner, right? But you still, you know, like their post regularly. You know, you swipe up and send the fire emoji on their story. Even though you say it's not emotional cheating cuz I'm not investing myself emotionally, it can be miscellaneous infidelity because it's still like, you know, >> you are attracted to this person, >> right? And if you have to like like things or send emojis or text in secrecy, that's cheating. Students often ask me, "How do you conceptualize cheating?" It's anything that revolves around hiding and secrecy. It's not cheating if it's not if you're not hiding it and if it's not a secret, right? like non- monogamy like ethical non- monogamy for example is the ability to see other people or sleep with other people but it's not a secret you talk about it with your partner so in that way that is not cheating cheating has to revolve around hiding in secrecy what's so interesting about that is I think a lot of people would be offended if you said that you've cheated right if you if you are someone that so you said one of those things was if someone is thinking about cheating with their partner, that's cheating. And I think Justin Bieber, actually, did you see this clip? He just recently said something that if you're thinking about being with another woman, if you're thinking about being intimate with another woman, then it's cheating, >> right? You're already kind of cheating in your brain because you're doing it in secrecy. You're doing it privately. It's something you know you shouldn't be doing. So, he said he said something along those lines. I can't remember exactly what it was, >> but you know, people wouldn't count that as cheating. If you have um a sexual dream around someone, is that cheating?

[00:08:01]>> Not a dream, because you can't control dreams.

[00:08:04]>> Okay.

[00:08:05]>> It's only the things that you can control.

[00:08:07]>> Like if I was sitting there being like, "This guy is really good-looking." Or if what if I thought certain thoughts about Justin Bieber, I'm just saying that, by the way, because we are we're talking about Justin Bieber, just to be clear.

[00:08:19]Um >> Oh, so he just did Coachella. So >> yeah, exactly. He was amazing. But, you know, let's just say I did think that.

[00:08:26]Would that be cheating if I had particular thoughts about Justin Bieber?

[00:08:30]>> I think it's important to distinguish the difference between a thought that pops up in your head versus consistently thinking about something, >> right?

[00:08:39]>> Cuz I can be sitting with you getting matcha in LA. There's a lot of beautiful people here.

[00:08:45]>> A guy can walk by and I can have a quick thought pop in my head and go, "Ooh, he's hot."

[00:08:51]>> Right? That's not cheating.

[00:08:53]>> Okay.

[00:08:53]>> But if I consistently think about I wonder if I should like turn around and make more eye contact. I wonder if we should Yeah. I wonder if we can exchange Instagram. Like you know, I wonder if he has posted anything so I can go stalk his Instagram. Like if you put in the intention and the effort, that's cheating.

[00:09:14]>> But if you just have a thought pop in your head, that's like an uncontrollable thing. So, I would say if it's controllable and you're doing it and you have to do it in secret, that's cheating. But a lot of people wouldn't say that it was intentional to give in an Instagram. So, let me just give you an example about me. Okay?

[00:09:34]>> I share my Instagram with a lot of people because I'm connecting with them about my work.

[00:09:40]>> And so, a lot of the time, you know, it's actually really funny. When I met my husband for the first time on our first date, I thought we were meeting because of a podcast and he thought he was taking me on a date.

[00:09:52]>> Oh my god.

[00:09:52]>> And it was only halfway through that I said, "Oh, are you single?" And he looked at me in so much confusion and said, "Obviously, are you?

[00:10:01]>> We're on a date." And I thought, "Oh, so this is a date." because I was genuinely confused because and and why I use that example so much, right, is because well, he was he was he was honestly so respectful, which is why I was so unsure if it was a date or not.

[00:10:16]>> So, when you were chatting before you met in person for this date, >> it was always about my work. He was >> It was friendly. Yeah.

[00:10:23]>> It wasn't romantic.

[00:10:24]>> No, he was just his first message to me was amazing podcast. Keep up the good work.

[00:10:31]>> How was I going to know? And then and then every message he like every message he replied to my story about was about a quote that I was uploading or a book that I read or about my work or doing my podcast. And he always used to say that's so admirable. That's so inspiring. It's so cool you're doing this. And so then and he had his own tech company by the way. So then when we met and he said let's catch up like let's meet in person. And so when we met in person I was genuinely confused. Is this a date or is this a podcast meeting? Because the lines can be blurred, right? It can be. Now, I did really fancy him. So, I was and I was single, >> so I thought, "Yeah, okay. I'm gonna go." Yeah. Like, let's hope that it is, right? But what I'm trying to say is right now if I message somebody that's really good-look, that's a guy that has an amazing book or an amazing podcast or is doing something amazing in this space. Could it be misconstrued sometimes as I'm hitting on them or I have a bad intention? Because what I'm trying to actually say is >> is a lot of people struggle with the idea of saying I intentionally cheated.

[00:11:37]There is a narrative of it just happened.

[00:11:41]>> You don't think that's true? You don't think that people can just get into situations where they didn't intend to cheat?

[00:11:47]>> No.

[00:11:49]Why? No. Um, okay. Let's take a step back. Okay. What you said like what if I just give people Instagram and I just wanted to connect cuz I'm like, you know, a master networking woman, which is an extremely important skill in today's world.

[00:12:08]>> But let's go back to the definition. Are you hiding or is this in secrecy?

[00:12:15]>> Can you share with your husband >> that you have shared your Instagram with these men that you want to connect with?

[00:12:21]>> Yes.

[00:12:21]>> Okay. Not cheating. Not cheating.

[00:12:23]>> You're so right. You're so right.

[00:12:25]Actually, >> so every time you do something, you have to go back to the definition. Are you hiding? Is it in secrecy? Cuz the only reason why any interaction with the opposite sex becomes potentially a cheating moment is because it's hiding and secrecy.

[00:12:42]>> Yes.

[00:12:42]>> Yeah.

[00:12:43]>> You're so right.

[00:12:44]>> Yeah.

[00:12:44]>> That is a really great way I think of checking in on yourself and saying, "Am I doing this with the right intention?"

[00:12:51]>> Yeah. If you ever feel like you have to hide, uh-oh, that's a sign. like you might be into this person more than just networking.

[00:13:01]>> However, what if somebody is in a relationship with someone who is extremely jealous and doesn't necessarily understand, >> you know, that you have to network. So, for example, yesterday >> I messaged someone to come on my podcast two days ago.

[00:13:17]>> Um, and he said, you know, I'm going to have to think about it. Let's see. And I just immediately said, "Well, if you're here, why don't we meet for coffee?"

[00:13:26]Because I just know that when I meet someone for coffee, we'll get if we get along, then they're more likely to say yes to the podcast with me rather than a cold email or cold DM.

[00:13:36]>> So yesterday, I said to my husband, I'm going to go meet this guy for coffee.

[00:13:38]And he was like, "Cool." When I came back, he was like, "How was it?" I was like, "It was really cool. I went to his house. I met his dogs." Yeah.

[00:13:44]>> And my husband was like, "Oh my god, amazing." And I was like, "Yeah, but I also did meet his girlfriend." But I didn't need to even say that in order to comfort my husband or make him not feel jealous or insecure because he is not insecure and jealous.

[00:13:58]>> However, there are some men who I've dated in the past that if I said I met this guy for my podcast and I went to his house, they would say, "Why did you go to his house? That's unprofessional.

[00:14:09]You're crossing a line there."

[00:14:11]>> And that could cross a line. No.

[00:14:13]>> No.

[00:14:14]>> Why? How does it cross a line?

[00:14:17]>> For some people, it would. And my point, sorry, my point is that >> it's because they are in uh because they are insecure >> and they are emotionally unhealthy. They suffer with low self-esteem.

[00:14:31]>> Mhm.

[00:14:32]>> Extreme jealousy isn't just a thing that people should accept. It's not just like, yeah, like he's just that way or she's just that way. Like uh-uh. It's not something that you should just accept.

[00:14:45]>> You're so right. It's something that people need to work on to overcome.

[00:14:50]Extreme jealousy is not normal. Like, let's not normalize that. Sometimes I will see Tik Toks where it's about like, "Oh, my boyfriend got so jealous. He like did this and this and he punch a hole in the wall like he just loves me so much." I'm like, "Girl, get away from him." Like, that is so extremely toxic.

[00:15:10]like let's not normalize being extremely jealous because it is the opposite of a healthy romantic relationship. So no, I would say you networking with someone who is a thought leader and you want him to come on your podcast and he invited you to come to his house that's nearby to see his dog and see his girlfriend.

[00:15:35]Yeah.

[00:15:35]>> All of those things do not cross the line.

[00:15:38]>> Exactly. Now if he started complimenting you uh perhaps about your physical or sexual features or if you started doing that to him or if there's uh touch involved where it's like he started you know touching your hand or your arm more then okay then that's gray >> right >> that's gray >> right >> but networking and especially you have to also think about the environment in LA like people are typically quite friendly and like just inviting someone to come like have tea at my house isn't like I'm going to have sex with them.

[00:16:11]Yeah.

[00:16:11]>> You know what I mean? It's so common.

[00:16:12]So, you have to consider the context as well. In this context, it is not crossing the line at all.

[00:16:18]>> Um, >> I do think that ultimately >> whether or not people say, "Oh, I just I didn't mean to. It was an accident."

[00:16:32]We have to take into account this research on social lubrication. When people are intoxicated, they are significantly more likely to cheat. So, if we're thinking the people that say, "I didn't mean to. It just happened."

[00:16:50]>> Right?

[00:16:50]>> That's because they were drunk.

[00:16:52]>> So, unintentional cheating is possible if you're drunk.

[00:16:58]>> Yes. But at the same time it's not excusable.

[00:17:03]>> Yes. But it is unintentional.

[00:17:06]>> Well, if depends on how you define intent, right?

[00:17:10]>> Intentional means you know you want to do it and you know you're doing it.

[00:17:15]>> To have sex consensually.

[00:17:17]>> Yes.

[00:17:18]>> You have to know you're doing it.

[00:17:19]>> Yes. It's so true.

[00:17:20]>> So yeah, in a way it's intentional. Like so I I don't even know that you can cheat unintentionally.

[00:17:26]So interesting because I think at the time you know what you're doing. This is an argument I had with someone previously but I I want to touch upon a few things that that we just said. I think the first point I was trying to make which I probably wasn't very clear about was when you are meeting somebody for work it can feel as if things get carried away. Okay. But I think what we've just debunked is that that doesn't happen because there are so many signals that need to happen and you need to be the one that's both of you need to have this element of secrecy. There's not this openness. There's not this, hey, come and meet this person or telling your husband or whatever there is.

[00:18:01]>> But my point was is that some people hide it not because they feel like they want to cheat, but because they feel they have someone insecure at home who's not going to understand that they need that for their work. Right? So there'll be some men who's the opposite of my husband >> who will say, "But you met him. You went for a walk. Why did you need to go to his home?"

[00:18:21]>> And sometimes it's easier to just not say that than to tell the truth.

[00:18:26]>> And that's how I think sometimes there's a bit of a nuance there because some men are just so unstanding and sometimes not supportive. And so, you know, in my case, it was a podcast, but say for example, it's someone in a workplace and they had to go for a business meeting with someone in their team who's attractive, who's doing better than their husband, >> who and the husband feels threatened by them for no reason. Even if there's no sexual intimacy or any intimacy between those two, that woman can feel as if she can't tell her husband, >> right? And and that is not necessar is that cheating? I don't think that is.

[00:19:00]>> No, but that's a huge relational issue, >> right? that needs to be fixed. Yeah.

[00:19:05]>> Or you need to leave that relationship.

[00:19:07]>> Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

[00:19:08]>> And then the second thing when we were talking about was jealousy and you said, "Well, let's not normalize jealousy because we can change."

[00:19:16]>> I used to be such a jealous person.

[00:19:18]>> Same. And look at me now. Non- monogamous. Like my husband just had sex with a woman like the other day.

[00:19:25]>> I don't know if I could be there. I don't know if I could get to >> No, no. And we talked about this. It's an orientation. You're not Yeah.

[00:19:32]>> 100%. But h how do you think you change that? Because there'll be people who are listening to this who are jealous but they feel kind of embarrassed about it because you don't feel good when you're jealous. By the way, I definitely didn't. You know, when I was jealous, I used to feel embarrassed because you know you're being so silly >> about things. You would say why are you going why are you going for a walk with this person or why did you like that person's post? That's another thing.

[00:19:56]>> I was so jealous as well. In my early 20s, I think I like checked all my partner's phones.

[00:20:02]>> Yeah. Like I was so jealous.

[00:20:04]>> How did you stop becoming so jealous in your relationships?

[00:20:07]>> My answer would be twofolds. First, I work on myself. I have worked on myself so much and still continue to work on myself today.

[00:20:19]>> And I can go back to my evidence shelf.

[00:20:23]>> Yes.

[00:20:23]>> And look at myself and go, "Oh, wow."

[00:20:26]like I am amazing >> and an incredible catch. So if my partner chooses to do extracurriculars outside of our relationship, it has nothing to do with me. So I think that's the first aspect of becoming someone that's not jealous. Uh secondly, you have to also think about how like jealousy comes from feeling threatened of losing your resources.

[00:21:02]>> So conceptually in social science there's a difference between envy and jealousy.

[00:21:09]>> Okay? Envy is they get stuff like kind of like let's say sibling envy like let's say your parents buy one sibling a car but not the other. You can feel envious and be like oh I want that car as well.

[00:21:23]>> Right.

[00:21:23]>> Jealousy is when you have something but you feel threatened that it will be taken away.

[00:21:31]>> Ah >> yeah so that's jealousy. And if you live in gratitude, if you every day, you know, write in your journal how thankful and grateful you are. And if you live in gratitude, you wouldn't feel as much that you're threatened that something will be taken away from you, that your partner will be taken away from you by others.

[00:21:52]>> So, I think those are my twofolds of my own process. But what about you?

[00:21:57]>> I think it was because I was so insecure in the relationship and I didn't trust the other person. and they had broken my trust so many times. So from small things to saying I'll be ready at this time and they weren't ready to pick me up or you know hey we're going to this thing. Oh sorry you're not invited anymore. And so you realize that >> so inconsistency >> inconsistency and also you know trust is a I I think is built up through small actions and when you can not trust somebody you can't trust anything they're saying. So, I think I was the person who went through the phone and then I would find things where, you know, he would say to me, "Oh, I came home at like 11 last night. I was so tired." And then the Uber would say 3:00 a.m. pick up >> and I would just look at that and then he would say, "Yeah, but it's cuz I can't it's cuz I can't tell you cuz you'll get annoyed."

[00:22:44]>> I mean, you were just with a shitty potter.

[00:22:46]>> Like, I feel like that amount of jealousy was warranted because you were with a shitty partner.

[00:22:51]>> I know. But I was just honestly so crazy. And I remember thinking, will I ever escape this? You know, and when I left that toxic relationship and now with my husband, what's interesting, I don't know if you felt this too, is when you when I left a toxic relationship, when I was with a normal nice man, I genuinely thought that something was wrong because it was not so up and down and crazy. And then with the jealousy thing, I used to think, why is my husband not jealous? I used to genuinely be offended that he wasn't jealous. And he just he just is so secure. And so I found that so strange. And now even having this conversation, I haven't actually thought about jealousy in such a long time. But in the beginning part of our relationship, I used to feel find it offensive that he didn't care >> that someone else was hitting on me. Cuz I would get DMs at the start, right, from people. Yeah.

[00:23:41]>> And I would show him to be like, "You're hot.

[00:23:43]>> I want I want to I want to make you jealous. I want you." And he'd be like, "Okay, cool." And I would look at him and think, why are you not getting jealous? And now it's so funny because I don't even it it well, first of all, I don't even get them anymore right now.

[00:23:56]So I think that's just so >> Do you have like just a tiny bit of feeling of like, man, it would be nice if he was like, "Well, why does that guy text you so much?"

[00:24:08]>> Not anymore.

[00:24:09]>> Okay. So >> that's what I'm saying is weird is that I actually have forgotten having this conversation with you about Jeity. It reminds me that in the beginning how much it used to annoy me that he wasn't jealous and now I'm like gosh we haven't even I haven't even thought about it in so long. It hasn't even come into my brain maybe because no one's hit on me in a long time and so I haven't had that experience. But genuinely I haven't thought about it in in such a long time.

[00:24:33]And I think the growth comes from how secure you feel in the relationship. And I I know we shouldn't pin everything on the other person. But I really do think that jealousy comes from how the other person makes you feel. And he has never made me feel insecure in any way.

[00:24:50]>> And so because I don't feel insecure, I don't feel jealous at all.

[00:24:53]>> Do you know what I mean?

[00:24:55]>> I think security is a team sport.

[00:24:57]>> Exactly. It's a team sport. It's about >> one person has to be has to have secure attachment, >> but the other person has to also not have sketchy behaviors. M >> so you know it comes from both sides from both.

[00:25:10]>> Yeah. I I love what you said and I would love if we can normalize feeling stable in a relationship like that more often and see it as romantic >> because currently in our society >> jealousy is romantic.

[00:25:28]>> I used to think that when I was younger I >> in our society it still is. That's why the media still portrays like whenever a man is really jealous, it's romantic.

[00:25:37]Like >> true in the movies.

[00:25:39]>> Yeah, in the movies. Like if he was nonchalant, it wouldn't be as romantic, right? It has to be like >> he's so consumed by the thought of you.

[00:25:47]Even a man like, you know, even if you uh take like a piece of bread from a man and slightly touching his fingers, he's upset because it's just you're his, you're mine. You can Yeah. It's just it's so ingrained in our society that it's young people still think that that's love and that's real romance. And if he or she or they don't express any sort of jealousy, it means they're not into me enough. Yes. I think that is a quite immature approach though I think because you're you're chasing after this lust and this obsession >> and I don't think that's the longevity >> that is in any relationships.

[00:26:30]>> Not at all. And jealousy like you said it's horrible. It's a horrible feeling.

[00:26:34]>> It's a horrible feeling. You feel awful when you're like that cuz you're you're actually not some and I think it's I don't think any of us are naturally meant to be like that. So when we're becoming this obsessive, jealous person who's checking their phones, checking their emails, figuring out every move that that person's making, you feel awful inside, especially when you're a high caliber person, >> right?

[00:26:55]>> Who's a go-getter who has achieved some stuff and is, you know, ambitious.

[00:27:00]>> Yes. Really hard to accept.

[00:27:02]>> It is the feeling of jealousy.

[00:27:04]>> Yeah, you're so right. So I think the first part of this podcast what I really wanted to cover was talking about how really you can't subconsciously cheat.

[00:27:14]You know it is intentional. It's not an unintentional thing. So now I want to ask you from all of your experience with celebs go dating from writing the book from all the work that you do. Why do people cheat?

[00:27:26]People cheat for various reasons and I can point out a few. First is they don't feel desired and loved in their relationship.

[00:27:37]Second is there is a strong sense of sexual dissatisfaction.

[00:27:42]Third is they crave exploration and novelty and their partner isn't down to play the game.

[00:27:49]>> Right?

[00:27:50]>> Fourth is they have always been an ethical non- monogamous person but have tried to fit themselves in the monogamy box for society for so long. And fifth is when they are just psychologically [ __ ] They are a psychopath and that's what they do regularly.

[00:28:09]>> Okay. I want to start with the fourth reason first because you spoke about this in the last podcast we did and I found it fascinating.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah. So many people are actually ethically non- monogous for their relationship orientation. We talked about this briefly, how every single human has a sexual orientation and a relationship orientation, two different things. Okay.

[00:28:32]>> A sexual orientation is who you are sexually attracted to.

[00:28:35]>> Yeah.

[00:28:36]>> So, you can be heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, pansexual, and perhaps other things like questioning or two spirit.

[00:28:46]Relationship orientation is how you are romantically attracted to others and want to be in a relationship. So there's monogamous, there are there's non- monogamous, there's polyamorous, and that's just the way you want to exist in a relationship. So it's not a choice. Like for example, being gay, that's not a choice, right? People are just they were born gay. Like they're gay, they can't be straight, you know?

[00:29:14]You can try to electrocute them or do other treatments, they can't change.

[00:29:19]Like they're gay. It's the same thing for me. I am a non- monogamous person for my relationship orientation.

[00:29:28]>> But for years, I have tried and tried and tried to be monogous.

[00:29:33]>> But then felt very trapped inside the very beautiful loving monogous relationship. Never really knew why until I finally studied this in social science particularly, you know, in romantic relationships and in expansive relationships. Nowadays, even though there's much more discussions about ethical non- monogamy, so people that participate in open relationships or polyamory, there's a difference between that. Have we ever talked about that?

[00:30:01]>> No.

[00:30:02]>> So the term ethical non- monogamy enm is used by everyone that participates in anything outside of monogamy.

[00:30:12]>> Okay.

[00:30:12]>> It's an umbrella term.

[00:30:13]>> Yes, we have talked about this. I remember. Yeah.

[00:30:15]>> Yeah. But then within ENM there's so many different things. So you can be like in an open relationship, you can be in a poly relationship and they're all different. So in an open relationship you can have like a partner that you're with and then you can have it be open meaning you can sexually explore with others. Poly relationship on the other hand you are allowed to love multiple people because it's poly and amorous right. Got it.

[00:30:43]>> So poly is multiple amorous love. So multiple loves. So I'm polyamorous. Like I when I date other people, I don't just date for sexual gratification.

[00:30:54]I date for emotional connection, intellectual compatibility, spiritual connection, all those things as well. So and I I am able to love multiple people.

[00:31:07]>> Yes. So I'm Pauly. Uh but in general, we just say we're ENM. Got it.

[00:31:12]>> Because that's the umbrella term. So going back to cheating, I think there are a lot of individuals out there that are actually enm orientation, but they don't have the knowledge, haven't explored, and therefore consistently have these thoughts about cheating, like basically exploring outside the relationship that they're in because they just didn't have the knowledge and they haven't explored.

[00:31:38]Oh, >> and then there's also another group of people that have the knowledge but is too afraid to explore >> because they're too afraid to bring it up with their partner.

[00:31:48]>> Yes.

[00:31:48]>> And we spoke about that last time and I think that falls under a lot of people because, >> you know, I spoke about our conversation with so many people and I'm just remembering it now because I would tell people, wait, there was a three-step rule to understanding if you are monogamous or not, right? And I'm pretty sure the first one was, "Have you cheated in all your relationships?"

[00:32:11]>> And if the answer is yes, then that's like one thing. Then the second one was, "Do you feel good if you see your partner talking to another person from the opposite sex or same sex depending on your >> preferences?" And then what was the third? I can't remember.

[00:32:24]>> If you're extremely open-minded.

[00:32:26]>> Yes.

[00:32:26]>> Yeah. Cuz you have to be.

[00:32:27]>> Cuz you you really have to be like, you know, to the point where you're like, "Yeah, like go on a date with this person. I'll just stay home and wait."

[00:32:36]Yeah, it's still me. It's not me.

[00:32:38]>> I know. I know. I know. It is. That's why I say it's an orientation because it triggers such a strong response from the people on the opposite side, you know, is an orientation. It's not just a preference.

[00:32:50]>> Oh, I see. That's so interesting because Yeah. And so when I was going through that with people, one of my friends who isn't directly in an open relationship, they do go to sex parties, which, you know, I thought was really interesting that they felt open to share with me.

[00:33:05]monogamish.

[00:33:06]>> Yeah, monogamish.

[00:33:08]>> After I had this conversation with you, you know, she said, I've I can't come under all those three brackets, you know. And the first one, just how you said, some people are so afraid to say, she said, whilst I haven't cheated physically in every relationship, I have cheated emotionally in every relationship. Mh.

[00:33:25]>> And I think that that's what's sad is that like you said, there's so many people who are out there who are stuck or unhappy in a monogous relationship.

[00:33:35]And whilst I don't personally have that same orientation, >> I just think people should be allowed to do what they want to do and people should be happy >> and genuinely happy, not happy by what society defines us to be happy within.

[00:33:52]Because we see so many people in marriages and monogous relationships and they are so deeply unhappy, so miserable, so miserable and they don't explicitly have to say it's just like they are miserable. Like you can feel it off of them, >> off the energy, right?

[00:34:06]>> When people are unhappy in their relationships, you can totally feel it.

[00:34:10]How many like dinner parties or networking places that you've gone to that you just >> when they start talking about their partners, they're just so unhappy. You can feel it. It's terrible because >> when you look at interviews of these traditionally successful people in our society, right? For example, someone like Warren Buffett, he will say that the most important decision that he has ever made in life was mating or marrying his partner. And social relationships are the most important thing in life.

[00:34:41]Like according to a 70year study by Harvard. So, why are we pretending to be someone we're not in a relationship anymore?

[00:34:51]>> Come on. You know, when >> That's so true. Wow.

[00:34:54]>> When we know how big of an impact it has on our well-being and our mental health, physical health, emotional health, everything. M you know you what you just said is so so impactful cuz I would also say say that marrying my husband has totally changed my life >> and it really has in so many ways that I didn't I didn't know it was directly going to impact me. Does that make sense?

[00:35:18]>> Yeah. Tell me more.

[00:35:19]>> And so well I just think he's made me so confident. He's made me go after so many things because he's so risk averse. He's made me risk averse because he's so daring. He's made me daring, you know.

[00:35:31]And I think that because we have the same habits, he's pushed me in ways that I just didn't know I could be pushed.

[00:35:37]And it's not direct. It's so subconscious. Like he doesn't say to me, "You need to do this."

[00:35:42]>> It's just subconscious, you know? And I think that, you know, just seeing the impact on our relationship even at home, you know, I was never someone in my feminine. I was always in my masculine.

[00:35:52]And I love being in my feminine now. And then I think, gosh, I'm such a different person >> than I was before. when someone triggers me now, I just say, you know, do you really think that's right what you just said? Rather than going mental at them, you know, I'm just like, do is what you said right? Cuz that's how he speaks to me. He's always just like, do you think what you said is appropriate? He'll never ever he's never named me in my life. He'll never say, "You're an idiot.

[00:36:16]You're stupid. You're you're whatever."

[00:36:17]And whilst that may sound crazy, I grew up with that as a norm.

[00:36:22]>> And so as someone being like, "You're so stupid. How did you forget that?"

[00:36:25]>> Or like, "You're so dumb. Why didn't you do that?" in the family.

[00:36:28]>> Yeah. All the time. But it wasn't ever said in a nasty way, but it was just so normal to call people idiots. And >> I always say like Asians are very like linguistically judgmental.

[00:36:39]>> Yeah.

[00:36:40]>> It's like in the language, it's not necessarily malicious, >> right? But when you're with then somebody who hasn't had that experience, >> you recognize it within yourself. And so in that's what I'm saying. There's so many ways, not just with my work, but with my energy and then also the way in which I speak to myself that I've recognized that wo this is >> this is so crazy. He's like I always say he's like my healer. But anyway, >> I love that. I love that you find inspiration from your partner and I think it's the most important thing actually.

[00:37:10]>> And this will be a shock to people that know me well cuz they would think like the most important thing in a relationship is sex according to Tara.

[00:37:19]But no, I think the most important thing in a relationship is finding your partner inspiring. Why?

[00:37:25]I agree with you, but I want to know why. Because when you find your partner inspiring, you naturally will respect them. You will talk to them like an adult respectfully. You will give them more of a benefit of the doubt when they do something that you disagree with. You will handle conflict more constructively.

[00:37:48]you will find energy within yourself as well because their inspiring life rubs off on you, >> right?

[00:37:56]>> It's just all the benefits comes from finding your partner inspiring. And for me as a non- monogamous person, like currently I'm dating two people, right?

[00:38:05]Like my partner here and my partner in London, >> I find both of them highly inspiring.

[00:38:10]>> Wow.

[00:38:10]>> And both of them positively affect my life in various aspects. Similarly, the way you describe yourself. So yeah, I would say finding your partner inspiring is really important.

[00:38:21]>> It's interesting because I met somebody recently and they said that they divorced their wife >> because they said they weren't that ambitious and they weren't that driven and they just weren't inspired by them, >> right?

[00:38:33]>> But they still have so much love for that person. They have a great relationship, >> but they just don't find them inspiring.

[00:38:39]Whilst the new person that they're with, they find them really inspiring or much more of a go-getter. So, I think that's so important that you just brought that up because I think one of the biggest reasons that you know why people do cheat and like you said in the beginning is that you lose that that admiration for that person and I think a lot of that comes from inspiration you know.

[00:38:59]>> Yeah. That's why when people only base their attraction on physical attractiveness, it's so fleeting because just the physical attractiveness, it sort of comes and goes and you can go through a hole of depression and look terribly because it reflects externally.

[00:39:20]You can then have an amazing month and then look amazing. You can start working out and then look amazing. You can get into a car accident and then can't work out for a few months and then look terrible according to your own standards, of course.

[00:39:36]>> So, if you base your attraction just on physical attractiveness, I think you're quite doomed. And that's coming from someone who loves apps. By the way, all the men I date have apps.

[00:39:51]You can't just base it off of that.

[00:39:53]Like, you have to find them as a human being inspiring. And when we say inspiring, you and I may have similar criteria, but it's not always that. You can find a housewife extremely inspiring, >> right?

[00:40:09]>> Because she can take care of the house 100%. She can like she she does everything so well and she sorts things out for you. Things are on time. Like you don't have to worry about >> and emotional, intelligent, and everything. So we're not just saying career >> 100%. But what I was going to say is, do you think everyone feels that way? Do you think that everybody needs to have a partner that's inspiring? Because I've met women who don't care about that in the sense that actually that's a lie. I don't know if they don't care about the inspiring cuz I can't say that. But I know that they care about, let's say, for example, they just want to be looked after. They just care about the money element.

[00:40:46]>> They don't actually care about if the person is thoughtful or spontaneous or organizes things for them. that's not important for them.

[00:40:54]>> So, do you think that there are some people that just care about the looks and the perception of what society thinks that that person looks like? Cuz I know that there are people who are just like, "My husband is this and he does that and he does that." And you're a bit like, "Okay, why do you always have to tell me that?" Like, "I've met him 20 times."

[00:41:11]>> There. Yeah, there are people like that for sure, but that's wrong. I don't think it's healthy to base attraction and love on solely status and physical attractiveness.

[00:41:22]>> Why? Because what if for some people that's enough? What if I my definition of love is I just need a rich guy and he needs to be 6'5 in finance, whatever that trust fund, big big eyes, blue eyes, whatever it's called.

[00:41:36]>> What if he's emotionally unavailable, cheats on you consistently? Do you not care?

[00:41:41]>> Some people don't, >> right? They say they don't but then in long term it will start to chip away their self-esteem to at some point they would have such low self-esteem everything becomes external that's why they have to buy these expensive cars you know 100 airmes bags like to just fill the void because the partner that they're with don't truly love them >> it's there's no longevity or sustainability in that type of relationship. I was I was like that in my 20s. I just want someone rich and hot. I don't care. Like, he can cheat on me. I don't care. Like, he can, you know, do whatever he wants as long as I get my bags and and he's hot. Like, you know, we're hot together when we go out.

[00:42:21]>> Why?

[00:42:21]>> So shallow. I was just like that for multiple years.

[00:42:25]>> Okay.

[00:42:25]>> And then it finally hit me. I realized that I was so empty that I did not ever feel loved and it started to affect my mental health and just well-being in general. I started losing hair. Um, I started getting backne back acne from all the stress and like the internal stress that I don't process.

[00:42:49]So, no, it's not a good way to be. It's not a good way to be in a relationship at all. Like, so when people say that, I hope they're joking.

[00:42:56]>> Okay. Do you Okay. Okay. Okay. That's good. That's good to know.

[00:42:59]>> Yeah.

[00:42:59]>> You just said about self-esteem and I think that is one of the biggest things that people struggle with when people cheat because they internalize it. Now, you gave us the multiple reasons why people cheat. You also said something, you know, that you cheated in relationships when you felt stuck and you felt, you know, it wasn't even personal to that person. It's just you're not monogamous, >> right? So, how does somebody at home who's just been cheated on, how do they not make it personal to them, how do they find out which is the reason that that person cheated? Because sometimes people don't know why they cheat. They really don't know.

[00:43:34]>> But sometimes it doesn't help because there are some people who just say, you know, I don't know why I did it. I'm trying to figure it out, >> right? And they cannot pinpoint what the reason is. Where should they start?

[00:43:46]>> I think if you see a really good relationship therapist, they have a set of questions that they can ask to parse out the real answer behind why your partner has cheated. So you can do that on your own, but at the same time, I think a lot of people don't have that sort of emotional and mental skills to go through the questions and to be honest answering them, >> right? That's why I'm saying you do need a relationship therapist who is a third party who has a set of questions that's based on research >> who then can help tease out the actual reason that's perhaps deeprooted.

[00:44:29]>> Especially when people are in such distraught after they cheated.

[00:44:34]>> Yes.

[00:44:34]>> And they have no idea and they keep saying I don't know why. I don't know why. I don't know why.

[00:44:38]>> Yes. I think working with a therapist together, like as a couple, really, really, really helps. I want you to take a minute and really, really think about that. Like, first off, do you feel completely truly desired and loved and appreciated and adored in your relationship?

[00:44:58]>> Yes. Absolutely. Right. Like you can easily answer that.

[00:45:02]>> Yes.

[00:45:02]>> But there are a lot of people that come to my private practice, you know, especially after infidelity. And when I asked them to really really think about it, don't just answer like that. Like think about it. They didn't go, "Well, I know they love me, but do I feel desired by them, adored by them?" Not really.

[00:45:24]That's your answer. You just felt neglected for so long that you feel like instead of gaining the courage to have a proper conversation with your partner, you might as well get it somewhere else.

[00:45:36]So, do you think that cheating is the is the cheater's fault or the I'm going to say victim's fault?

[00:45:42]>> It's people's fault.

[00:45:43]>> Yeah, I don't think victim is the correct word then. In that case, is it?

[00:45:47]>> I think it takes two to tango >> really.

[00:45:50]>> Except for the last reason, which is like if you're just psychologically effed, >> then if you're a psychopath and you consistently are serial cheater and like just Yes. Yes. Yes. find joy out of out of it, then yeah, it's your fault.

[00:46:04]>> Yeah. Cuz you're losing. for the other reasons. It takes two to tango. You're in a relationship relationship two people. Like it's it takes two to tango.

[00:46:13]So if I cheat on my husband, let's just say, which I'm never going to do if you're watching this podcast, but if I cheated on my husband, then you're saying that it's also his fault that I've cheated.

[00:46:24]>> Yeah.

[00:46:24]>> I disagree with you.

[00:46:26]>> And the reason I think I disagree with you is because I think that we should all be able to have a conversation with someone to say, I feel neglected. And I think if you can have it's an easy option for me to cheat with someone else and then say, "Sorry, you didn't tell me I looked nice every day. You didn't appreciate this about me." Yeah. But it's way more than that. I'm going to give you a case study. Okay.

[00:46:47]>> Uh my client, this is a couple years ago. They come into the practice. Okay.

[00:46:53]Because the wife has found out through an iPad that was shared in iCloud that God's been cheating on her. At first glance, you'll think, "Oh, it's totally his fault, right?" Like, he's been emotionally cheating. He's been texting this girl that he works with, and she's amazing. She's beautiful. She's uh has really high-profile job. She's a great mother. They have a child together. They have a lovely family. She She's the glue that keeps everything together. And he's just a piece of [ __ ] right? Because he cheated on her. Like, how how dare him?

[00:47:29]come to learn through lots of group therapy together that she in her job uh she's been really really stressed for the last six years because she was promoted to a very very high-profile position stressed for six years work all day and night so a lot of times he's taking care of their daughter for the last six years so he has felt alone for a long time before he even started sending that smiley emoji to that girl at work >> because she's been quietly quitting the relationship. She didn't put in any effort into the relationship. Yes, she still says, "I love you." She still buys him gifts on his birthday and Christmas.

[00:48:17]Uh she still makes sure that the nanny takes care of the kid and you know a housekeeper comes in every three days to clean the house, >> right? um she still you know participate like when he books dinner for dates like she still participates they still go on a date but no they haven't had sex for at that point when we were talking they haven't had sex for 2 years and when we when I say sex they haven't had penetrative sex like he has obviously like masturbated and right you know and even that like she feels upset like she shows that she's upset when he masturbates cuz it's like why like why like why do you have to do that? Why don't why don't you save it for next time we're together? When he started sending that smiley emoji to the girl at work and then they started talking and then of course you know he travels for work. So on a work trip they enjoyed uh a sexual endeavor together one time and that's the aftermath is when she found out through the iPad of like texting and flirting. Is it completely his fault?

[00:49:24]That's a difficult one. Let us know in the comments what you all think. I mean, it's uh it's a difficult one to say that it's one person's fault than the other.

[00:49:33]However, what we said in the beginning of this podcast is it's never unintentional. So, you know, and you're sending that smiley, you're missing something.

[00:49:42]>> So, why not communicate that with someone?

[00:49:44]>> Exactly. So, if anything, him cheating, is it completely his fault and he's a bad person? No. Is he a coward? Yes.

[00:49:54]>> Right. Is he uh someone who is too insecure to bring up this conversation?

[00:50:01]Yes. But is he a bad person? No.

[00:50:04]>> So, as a relationship therapist, I try not to put that type of judgment on others that make these mistakes.

[00:50:13]>> Because when you put a judgment on, oh that's a bad person, divorce him. Like you are saying this person who is a multi multi-dimensional person who is an amazing boss at work, an amazing son for his father and mother, an amazing brother, an amazing father to his daughter who's the basically the sole caretaker because she's always working.

[00:50:36]He's not a bad person. A bad person is saying he's bad in all of those aspects.

[00:50:41]>> Wow.

[00:50:41]>> He's not a bad person. He made a mistake.

[00:50:43]>> Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's really, you know, I think that is a really great way to break it down because it's so easy to label someone as a bad person. This is what my husband says to me actually >> cuz I just label things.

[00:50:58]>> I love it. You have strong opinions and you just say it first and then you're like, I never mind. I changed my mind.

[00:51:03]>> I just love that.

[00:51:04]>> Yeah. I would immediately have just said he's a bad person because you're right, being a coward doesn't make you a bad person. I would call him a coward, >> right? But does that make him a terrible human being?

[00:51:16]>> No.

[00:51:17]>> No. It maybe just makes him >> He's not courageous.

[00:51:20]>> He's not courageous.

[00:51:22]>> Yeah.

[00:51:22]>> You always change my mind.

[00:51:24]>> Ooh, I love >> you always changed my mind. One thing I really love about that case study that you just shared was this idea that you can love someone deeply but then desire someone else. Now, I know that you're in a similar situation where you love two people at the same time. Do you think it's truly possible to love two people at the same time?

[00:51:43]>> Absolutely.

[00:51:44]>> Okay.

[00:51:45]>> Especially for people who have ethical non- monogamy as their relationship orientation.

[00:51:52]>> Okay.

[00:51:53]>> It's how I'm wired.

[00:51:56]It's how my brain's wired, >> right?

[00:51:58]>> I can love multiple people and I'm there for both of them and I'm emotionally supporting both of them. And in my life, I cannot see myself ever not being able to love multiple people. I have so much love capacity when it comes to romantic relationship.

[00:52:22]>> When people ask me for an example, I often say, and I know it's not the same, but it's still love. Love is love. I often say, okay, what if you have three children?

[00:52:32]>> Do you say you love them all the same?

[00:52:34]like you love them at the same amount.

[00:52:37]Of course, you can have a favorite because maybe one has like, you know, the uh maybe one has a similar way of thinking to you, they like the same hobby as you, they love the same movies as you, they love, then maybe you can have a favorite. But do you love all of them?

[00:52:52]>> Yes, you do.

[00:52:53]>> So, if you apply that logic into romantic relationship, yeah, I love all of them. I just really admire you because I remember seeing this quote by the way and this is completely unrelated but it showed different plates and it showed a porcen plate, a plastic plate, um a paper plate and like a china plate, right? And they were all different like a expensive china plate.

[00:53:15]>> And what it said is everyone's capacity is different.

[00:53:19]>> So like the porcelain plate can maybe hold this much. The paper plate can't hold as much and the plastic plate can hold a little bit more. And then like the china plate which was so expensive you know you wouldn't cut it as aggressively as you would the porcelain plate and I said everyone's capacity is different and you know I think this is so true about life is you know I just may not have that capacity >> within me and you know you just have the capacity to love multiple people but how does somebody bring that up in a relationship because if I said I love my husband okay but I have so much love to give that I also love let's say Joseph who's doing who's doing the um set for us today my husband would feel that I don't love him enough because he doesn't have that capacity >> you know when you think about the plate analogy you can very clearly see that one plate can just hold more than the other >> it's just by design it's how the plate is wired >> a paper plate will not be able to hold what a China plate can hold it won't be able to hold that >> so how do you explain that to somebody that's why you have to date another person with that's the same plate.

[00:54:27]You really have to.

[00:54:28]>> So true.

[00:54:29]>> In my book, I talk about the four dimensions of your sexual profile.

[00:54:35]>> Okay.

[00:54:35]>> One of the dimensions is whether or not you are leaning monogamous or flexible.

[00:54:40]And flexible is just flexible. It's not necessarily non- monogous, just flexible.

[00:54:46]>> That's a sort of a a different way to conceptualize it.

[00:54:49]>> Okay.

[00:54:49]>> So for you, if you take the quiz, so the first chapter is a quiz. If you take the quiz, yours will say monogamous completely on this side. Not even in the middle. Like you will be on this side.

[00:54:58]>> I'm completely on this side on the other end. But there are some people that's in the middle. But because I'm on this side, let's say I'm a porcelain plate. I can only date another porcelain plate because I can never date a plastic plate. Like we don't hold it the same way.

[00:55:12]>> Ah. The hard truth is if you're currently in a relationship and maybe through reading my book, doing my test or exploring online like all the quizzes that are out there about non- monogamy or whatsoever and learned that you are in fact non- monogous. The hard truth is your partner currently might not be your partner in the future.

[00:55:37]>> Wow.

[00:55:38]>> Because they might not be the same plate as you.

[00:55:42]Yes. You need to bring it up.

[00:55:44]>> And yes, there are ways to bring it up in a healthy way, but there is no way to mitigate the response that your partner will have. Your partner will be upset.

[00:55:58]And how they show their anger or resentment or disappointment depends on them. It's not something that you can control. You can only bring it up in a way that is the most honest, genuine from the bottom of your heart. Nothing to hide. But that's all you can control.

[00:56:17]You cannot control how they will respond. They will be upset.

[00:56:21]>> And that's just the truth. Even when I brought up my situation, my partner and I prior to that have always been monogamous, right?

[00:56:30]>> But I brought it up that I think I'm Paulie. Like I think I want multiple like relationships, not just sexually exploring with others, but actually dating other people and being in another relationship.

[00:56:44]>> Of course, he's upset. Of course, he is confused to why haven't I said that before?

[00:56:52]>> Okay, >> why has this just come up? Is there something wrong with me? Of course, he has to go through all of those things.

[00:56:59]And of course, I gave him a lot of affirmations that it has nothing to do with you as a person. It is me as a human being growing and learning what my relationship orientation truly is. Now I feel extremely secure in who I am and my relationship orientation and I can speak about it publicly.

[00:57:19]>> But before I was very confused as well.

[00:57:22]We were always non- monogamous and monogamousish but we weren't poly. just which is completely different because for some men they're like fine if you want to go play around when you're abroad on a work trip whatever just don't have another relationship but now I'm going into the territory of polyamory which is having multiple loves >> it's hard it was really hard for him and I can't speak for his own experience but he dealt with his anger confusion or whatever he had to overcome he dealt with it in very healthy way, >> right?

[00:57:57]>> So, you know, a couple weeks pass, we have a full hours conversation >> and we're settled.

[00:58:04]>> Like, we're Polly and that's who we are.

[00:58:07]>> Um, but >> he was upset, >> you know, and I was as well. I cried as well because it's >> it's not easy to accept who you are completely.

[00:58:18]100% selfacceptance will liberate you like no other. But at the same time to get there and to inform the others in your life, it is one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life.

[00:58:31]>> That is incredibly brave. And I think that that is even if you don't necessarily agree with what Tara and I are saying here, I think it's very important to recognize that you have to be true to yourself because otherwise you're living a lie and you don't even know that you are. I think one of the things that happens when people have the these kind of conversations or when people cheat >> is that they feel like they're not enough. I'm not enough because I'm not beautiful enough or I'm not smart enough or I'm not driven enough or, you know, I'm not as funny as that person or maybe I, you know, don't like doing the same things as that person. So now that they want to be with somebody else, whether it's consensual or non-consensual, it makes me feel as if I'm not enough. I can't speak on behalf of your husband.

[00:59:14]I'm sure you can't. Did he feel that he wasn't enough?

[00:59:17]>> Well, first off, if I was cheated on, I would also feel I'm not enough because even in Paulie and in ENM, you can still cheat on your partner if it revolves around hiding in secrecy, >> right? So, if I was cheated on, I can be vulnerable and honest and tell you right now, I will feel like [ __ ] >> Yeah.

[00:59:37]>> Like I won't like it. I I I won't be able to process that quickly, especially because we're non- monogous. Why wouldn't you tell me? So, no, like I I I would say it's completely normal to have a moment of feeling like why am I not enough if your partner cheats on you?

[00:59:59]>> But in my situation, everything is above the board. Everything is honest, communicative, and consensual. So for him, of course, he had a moment of like, why am I not enough? Um, I can't speak for him entirely, but I know uh from our conversation that he was able to get out of that really quickly because he also has the same brain as me.

[01:00:23]>> We're the same plate. Like, >> he can then rationalize it to like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I'm amazing. She's lucky to be with me. uh and she can also be lucky to be with someone who's also amazing who adds to her life who then adds to my life. Yes. When I'm functioning at 100 out of 100 due to the fact that all my partners are amazing and contribute contributing positively to my life, everyone's benefiting from me. Everyone cuz I'm at my best. I give my best. So >> he now thinks of it that way. I think of it that way as well because I was away.

[01:00:58]I was just away for what, like three and a half months filming in London for the TV show Let's Go Dating. My husband lives here in LA. Like, if he has sexual relations with others or if he goes on like different dates, like I love that because I want him to be functioning at at 100. If he was left lonely and see no one, date no one, talk to no one, have sex with no one for three and a half months, I would feel worse.

[01:01:25]>> Wow.

[01:01:26]>> But that's because of my brain, isn't it? Like it's because of my orientation.

[01:01:29]>> Yeah. So true.

[01:01:30]>> Always I always tell people like when you listen, please don't feel triggered because I'm not saying you should too.

[01:01:36]>> I'm saying this is me, >> right?

[01:01:38]>> Yeah. You should or should not do like I don't really care. It's like you do your own self assessment. Maybe you listen to this and you go, "Oh my god, I'm realizing I'm non- monogamous." But maybe you're listening to this and you cringe because it's obviously absolutely not you. And it's okay because we're all either monogamous or non- monogamous.

[01:01:56]and I'm non- monogous and Shiv is monogamous and that's that's the examples out there.

[01:02:02]>> Do you think cheating then can be a symptom and not the root problem?

[01:02:07]>> Cheating is always a symptom except when you're >> number five.

[01:02:11]>> Yeah, except when you're [ __ ] up in the head then that's >> yeah the root cause. But no, cheating is always a symptom.

[01:02:18]>> So there's always a reason as to why somebody cheats.

[01:02:20]>> Always. You know, I saw this quote once and it said, "Every behavior with enough knowledge can justify an explanation, >> right?" And I think that is so true that there's always a reason as to why somebody does something. It's how much you want to look at it to identify what the real issue is because, you know, there's people who I know that have cheated in relationships. They've overcome it. They're moving past it, right? But I don't think they've got to the real root of it because they're genuinely so afraid of the truth. What advice would you give to someone who's in that situation?

[01:02:56]>> I think educate yourself on what love, sex, relationship is like in this modern society. There are a lot of like podcasts and books and articles out there for you to read and learn more about yourself >> in order to have a more full more holistic view of yourself concept because I'm in my 30s and I had only not too long ago discovered I'm Paulie. Why?

[01:03:30]And I'm an expert. M >> I'm a sex and relationship expert for Christ's sake. Why didn't I know when I was 29, >> right? Like it takes time to educate and to explore and to learn and to also come to self-acceptance.

[01:03:47]So yeah, I would say first step is educate yourself like read more, listen more, seek out information that's different from what you already know in order to just learn more about the reasons why behind all your behaviors.

[01:04:02]I I completely agree with you. I think that there is so much knowledge available at the moment. We're so blessed in a generation.

[01:04:08]>> I want to really quickly talk about how you rebuild intimacy because when somebody cheats on you or when somebody comes to you and says, "Hey, listen. I want to explore, you know, having relationships with other people or being intimate with other people." That can feel really scary to then be intimate with that person because again you're in your head of am I good enough? Am I doing the right things? Did they cheat on me because of this or that? Right?

[01:04:36]But let's just take the cheating example and someone has cheated because I think >> I'm confusing them and they're ab I'm not confusing them but putting them in the same bracket means that they're similar and they're definitely not similar.

[01:04:46]>> I think one is consensual and one is not. So let's talk about the the cheating element. When somebody has cheated, they, let's say, said, "Well, you know, we haven't had sex in a really long time. I don't feel like when we're sexual, it's fun anymore. It's boring, and I'm actually enjoy X, Y, and Zed."

[01:05:02]How does somebody heal with that person?

[01:05:04]How do they continue going forward?

[01:05:07]I love this question. Uh, they heal from devotion, acts of devotion in a relationship.

[01:05:15]That's how they can heal.

[01:05:18]When it comes to physical intimacy, I have these activities that I call erotic solutions. Okay?

[01:05:24]>> There's a chapter in the book that actually outlines so many different erotic solutions to various different sex and relationship issues. Uh or not issues, maybe just explorations.

[01:05:36]But when you've been cheated on, your nervous system is so fried, you probably don't even want to be touched, >> right? So, let's not even talk about sex, cuz you can't.

[01:05:50]>> You can't do it. Let's talk about touch.

[01:05:53]Let's talk about feeling safe again, being touched by your partner. Let's talk about feeling loved again and desired again from your partner.

[01:06:00]>> And that has to come from devotion.

[01:06:03]>> What does devotion mean? Devotion by definition is doing something for someone without something in return.

[01:06:09]Show that you are devoted to that person. So sexually it can look like a nonsexual touch session and it can be like you getting naked together and cuddle and touch each other. Maybe like brush their hair, play with their hair, touch their face, give them kisses and just be naked next to each other. And maybe you do that for like weeks.

[01:06:32]>> Wow.

[01:06:34]>> To regain that trust and regain the ability to receive pleasure physically.

[01:06:42]And then afterwards you can go into maybe um a yoni massage because it is an act of devotion. A yoni massage is where the man and this is this is probably not a good stereotype.

[01:06:59]But I'm assuming the man cheated because just just cuz >> let's just assume this scenario >> because we're the girls here. But like actually women a lot of women have cheated as well. So let's >> women cheat more than men. Just random side note.

[01:07:16]>> I think emotional cheating probably.

[01:07:20]>> Really?

[01:07:21]>> I think so. But don't quote me on that because I would need to look at the data. I think all people cheat at >> topic for another day.

[01:07:29]>> Yeah. Topic for another day. For example, if she's still building her like physical safety around you and feeling like emotionally she can be open and be with you sexually, you would then show devotion through these acts. So like a yoni massage is basically just massaging her vulva and showing devotion to her vulva without penetration in return like without you having to get like sexual gratification. But then of course you know women are amazing and when we receive pleasure and we feel safe we want to reciprocate always.

[01:08:02]Wouldn't you say like you always want to reciprocate and you are a generous lover and you want your partner to be sexually satisfied?

[01:08:08]>> Yes.

[01:08:08]>> Yeah. Like I think any woman in a healthy relationship wants their partner to be sexually satisfied.

[01:08:16]>> Yes.

[01:08:16]>> Yeah. Like women don't go out there and be like, "Yeah, well [ __ ] him. I don't care."

[01:08:20]>> No, of course not. Oh, it's very uncomfortable to have this conversation when I know my family and friends are watching this. Yes.

[01:08:25]>> Hi, family and friends.

[01:08:28]>> But yeah, like I think I think most of us want our partners to feel sexually satisfied of course.

[01:08:34]>> So yeah, once you start showing devotion, which is doing something for your partner without expecting sex in return, they will want to return with sexual satisfaction and all of those things.

[01:08:46]>> Got it. So do you think the onus is on the person who cheated? I think because you committed relational transgression, you have trans transgressed your partner and now they are hurt and injured by your betrayal. You need to hold yourself accountable and start with these healing practices on your side if you've cheated on someone.

[01:09:08]>> Wow. When somebody cheats, I think the the shame that you feel again comes from internal but also external. You know, people can call you horrible things and be so nasty to you that then when you want to maybe heal yourself sexually, you you can't cuz you feel dirty. Has that ever happened with someone who's come into your practice?

[01:09:28]>> Absolutely. Yeah. It takes them a long time. I think it's important to engage in celibacy for a bit just to retrain your brain that listen like you are not the person that engaged in sexual infidelity just because you're a bad person. I think it's good to reset your body. Like go on a sex fasting, but sex. Go on a sex fast for like a couple weeks, >> right?

[01:09:56]>> Test that out and show yourself that you can do it, that you can hold restraint.

[01:10:02]>> Then afterwards, go on a feast.

[01:10:05]>> Afterwards, go on a sex feast. Like, um, engage in mindful masturbation.

[01:10:11]Mindful masturbation is such an extremely important practice for today's world. We live in a fast-paced world with lots of dopamine hits from social media and porn. To retrain and rewire our brain, we have to masturbate slow.

[01:10:29]Slow self-pleasure is an extremely important practice now more than ever.

[01:10:35]People can masturbate and orgasm in like two minutes, maybe less. Like men can, you know, pop pop in like porn, watch it and masturbate for 30 seconds and orgasm. But that's like training your brain to only enjoy pleasure that way.

[01:10:54]And you can't enjoy pleasure elsewhere with your partner >> because it's so different. The sensations are so different.

[01:11:01]>> So, no, no, no, no. It's it's actually bad for you to hurry and self-pleasure in that way. It's good for you to train like meditation but for your penis.

[01:11:17]>> It's good for you to train yourself and masturbate for a like I would say self-pleasure just because it's not all about your genital like it's also just being naked and enjoying yourself.

[01:11:28]Self-pleasure for a long time as in like a longer session. Don't rush it and don't always try to climax as soon as possible.

[01:11:36]>> Wow.

[01:11:36]>> That's a good practice to show yourself that you can do it. Show yourself like some self-love through intimate touch um and prolong pleasure for yourself and therefore with your partner when you finally engage in partner sex.

[01:11:51]>> What's been really interesting about this podcast, I think, is that we started off by really understanding that you don't just cheat, right? You do it intentionally. whether you realize you're doing it or not. You know, we're calling you out like it is intentional.

[01:12:04]And then we've talked about, you know, why people cheat. And then we've talked about a really big part, which is, are you in the right relationship? Are you the with the person with the right plate? And have you identified your plate?

[01:12:18]>> Bet you wish I gave you that analogy before you wrote your book, right?

[01:12:20]>> I know. I love that. But then I don't think anyone wants to identify themselves as a paper plate >> or a plastic plate. we all want to be the fancy China play.

[01:12:30]>> Um, >> and I think the way that we've just spoken about it now is that if you've decided that you're with someone who is the correct plate as you, you know, whether you are deciding to stay um in a monogous relationship or you're deciding to have that hard conversation, you you know, you need to heal the relationship with yourself first sexually and then also with your partner sexually. And that doesn't necessarily need to start with, you know, like you said, >> having sex all the time. M >> it needs to start with something as simple as you said just lying next to each other because you know I think when somebody's been cheated on it can feel really difficult to be intimate with that person again to trust that person again and it can feel frustrating for the person who's been cheated on to be in this position cuz then they're saying well now I feel even further from you >> you know you said cheating is a two-way street >> and it takes two to tango well that person already felt that the other person was not loving them and now when they're trying with them, they're not loving them because one feels like they've broken the trust and the other feels like they're trying. When you're at this crossroads and this like junction, what do you do?

[01:13:35]>> You mean one person's trying, one person's not?

[01:13:37]>> One person's trying, but the other person just cannot even lie next to their partner naked cuz they just feel so upset about what's happened.

[01:13:45]Everything is a trigger for them, you know, when they're Cuz I think the other part of cheating is you want to know every detail of what happened. And so when someone says, "Oh, we were lying naked together." you're like, "Okay, well now we're lying naked together. Are you thinking of them? Are you imagining them?" And then they can't even get out of their own head to be with that person >> intimately.

[01:14:03]>> I think it's really important to engage in a lot of self-care practices that allows you to not ruminate on the things that have happened, >> okay, >> and help you move on, >> right?

[01:14:16]>> I think asking for a lot of details like that is self-sabotaging.

[01:14:21]>> Really, it's not helpful. No, not at all.

[01:14:23]>> If your partner has cheated on you, it's their like it's their decision. They did it and now they're trying to make good.

[01:14:30]You don't need to like restab yourself multiple times by getting details. It's self-sabotaging. I don't recommend.

[01:14:37]>> Um, when people come to my practice and they're like, "Oh, yeah. Tell me all the things you guys did together. Like, I need to know." I'm like, "Do you do you need to know >> or do you just need to know the why and how to move forward?"

[01:14:50]>> Yes. Yeah. So true.

[01:14:51]>> Yeah. Don't don't keep stabbing yourself.

[01:14:53]>> Yeah. You don't need to.

[01:14:54]>> No. No. And engage in a lot of self-care practices like rebuild your own self-esteem and self-confidence because that's also your own responsibility.

[01:15:03]Like other people can't just give you your self-esteem.

[01:15:06]>> So true.

[01:15:06]>> Yeah. You have to work on yourself as well.

[01:15:08]>> Before we close, what's one quote that you live by?

[01:15:13]>> Who you are in sex is who you are in life. I think sex is such a raw, intimate and vulnerable way to be as a human being. And so if you are hiding, not enjoying, faking in bed, that's going to also be translating to who you are in life. Then you will become someone that's a people pleaser, that's hiding, that's not speaking up always for your own truth and your own position. So, I think who you are in bed is who you are in life is a quote that is extremely true.

[01:15:49]>> That is so true. I've never thought about it like that. Honestly, every time we speak, you blow my mind because I'm going to be honest, I don't have a lot of friends like you. So, I always >> I'm that friend for everyone. I think >> I feel like I love learning from you cuz I just think, God, I've never thought about that analogy. Never never explored that much. But, thank you so much. you.

[01:16:07]I honestly love speaking to you and I love spending time with you and I'm so grateful for you. So, thank you so much.

[01:16:12]I'm so excited to read this book.

[01:16:14]>> Thank you for having me.

[01:16:15]>> Of course.

[01:16:21]Describe what that woman looks like.

[01:16:22]What do you mean on the edge of breakthrough? And how do you start understanding what your magnetic power is? What is one journaling prompt that I could use that will help me figure out what's next in my life? What advice would you give to women in maybe their 40s or even in their 30s who haven't figured out what their purpose is yet?