Muslims vs Christians: The Debate Over Muhammad

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[00:00:00]false prophets.

[00:00:00]>> So my understanding of Muhammad and please correct me, Muhammad was in a cave or he was in in this place where he was approached by an angel of the Lord that came to him and said, I don't know what he said specifically to him, but at this point in time, he was so frightened by this encounter with the angel of the Lord that some stories retell him as wanting to jump off the side of the cliff that he was on. And he was so frightened at this point where he had to go to his wife. I think her name was Cada.

[00:00:31]>> Okay.

[00:00:32]>> And she had to um console him and comfort him, kind of bring him down from this point and then went next to her cousin who confirmed his prophethhood, if that's how you say it. Um and then at that point I think the reason why I don't believe that he is a prophet is is when I look at the nature of of the angel of the lord or god whenever he comes to anyone he provides that comfort. He doesn't like to me that encounter in states that that isn't a a I don't want to say sinister but that isn't a great encounter. And yes we do see it in scripture time and time again as as people are approached by angels of the lord they are afraid. So yes, that is consistent. But they say do not be afraid and they are then comforted. In that instance, he sought someone else for comfort and then his prophethood was confirmed by a cousin of you know his wife. And then um in certain stories the Muhammad what you guys believe of his nature kind of contradicts what they see in history as him being someone who is violent who has a past who has you know multiple different things that contradict him. But when I look at like the the way that his life was retold yes people did it in that time but most of the record of his life was done about I think it's about 150 years after his death or so. And it's just based on retelling of a story and retelling based on memory. Versus with Jesus, even though the disciples were with him and they wrote it down as they actually were with him within about 60 at the most 70 years of after his death and so there's a big distinction between the two, but I think that it just doesn't match the character of what's revealed in scripture.

[00:02:14]>> Sorry, you were if I may, you're talking about hadith. Hadith and Quran are two separate books.

[00:02:18]>> Exactly. So Quran was written it it was written the second it came on the prophet. Okay.

[00:02:24]>> Hadith is something else. Hadith is what you're saying.

[00:02:26]>> Oh I heard the prophet said this. You know you get there. So even in Islam we have two major sects. We were talking about that before the start of this episode.

[00:02:37]>> Uh in Islam we have two major sects. We have Shia and we have Sunnis. I'm a Shia is a Shia and our brothers >> to your and our sister are Sunnis. We do believe in hadith as well but we believe that it's a matter of discussion. It's not like the book. The book is the word of God and it's >> 100% cons consistent because if you go to any Muslim house they have a book and the book is the exact same. There's not even a single letter that is that is different.

[00:03:04]>> I can tell you that in the Quran God said which means we we send the word and we preserve it. But it won't make sense to you because it's my book. So I'm just trying to make logic out of it than to read from the book.

[00:03:18]>> But are you saying that it it's more reliable because it's in the original text?

[00:03:24]>> Quran is just the word of God. Hadith is something debatable again between Muslims themselves.

[00:03:29]>> Even among Muslim we have a lot of issue with hadith because hadith is something like you say was read like after 100 year before >> like 150 170 years.

[00:03:50]can say or write something.

[00:03:52]>> Sorry. Especially especially that one thing to mention that in Islamic belief some Muslims would disagree but mostly in Islamic belief the prophet was illiterate. He couldn't write or or couldn't >> couldn't sorry read. So when you were talking about the angel it was Gabriel.

[00:04:07]Gabriel was sent upon Muhammad and he told him which means read. So the prophet said read what I don't know how to read. So he says which means read in the name of your creator god.

[00:04:23]He started reading and he started writing which is one of his miracles that he didn't know how to read or write but he came up with a book. So it's not he came up with a book. It was the word.

[00:04:31]>> So I do have one question regarding that. Is is that statement though because it was retold and then um it was prescribed written after his death in the book >> right so and after his death is this that same book though that was lost and then it was also then retold by another jump in just quickly to answer your question guys we have to be very honest with what she said what she said was more in line with Shia Islam and with Islam in general than unfortunately a lot of people who accept accept that hadith. That hadith you mentioned where the prophet became suicidal, where the prophet needed to be consoled by his wife and her cousin who was Christian is an authentic hadith from Sunni references. I'm not trying to be sectarian. Yeah.

[00:05:17]>> But that's an authenticated hadith from Muslim as a way prophet Muhammad received revelation from age of Gabriel is exactly like how you described in with love with expectation. He knew he was a prophet before the create before coming into this world. We have an Islamic understanding of prophet Muhammad as well as Jesus as well as Abraham that they existed before this earthly realm as we all did in the world we call in the world of lights. So we have this understanding that prophet Muhammad when he received revelation did not become hysterical nor did he try to commit suicide multiple times to add on to the point that you're making. But you but to also use that as a point to denounce the prophethood isn't fair because I read the Old Testament. Like I mentioned, prophets are committing incest. Prophets are having drunk sex with their daughters. Prophet, forgive the language, but it's the reality. I'm I'm referring to Prophet Lot. He sleeps with his first daughter the first night when she intoxicate intoxicates him.

[00:06:19]>> Prophet's not a lot.

[00:06:20]>> He's not Look, he's a man of the Bible.

[00:06:21]I'll continue. How about King David who sends a man >> awkward? That's just false though. I mean, if you keep going on, you're still saying >> is King David not a prophet either?

[00:06:28]>> Yes. But you said Lot lip prophet Lot is a biblical figure who Christians rever rightfully so as Muslims do.

[00:06:37]>> But it's not even accurate that assessment though because Lot didn't sleep with his daughters. He got drunk and his daughter slept with him.

[00:06:44]>> That's the correct.

[00:06:45]>> Okay, that Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's look. The first night his daughter tricked him and she had sex with him. Then he got fooled again the second night. If he didn't learn the second time, he got fooled again the third time.

[00:06:56]>> It wasn't on.

[00:06:56]>> But he's a biblical figure and he's being tricked >> about the prophecy whether this was a prophet or not. Right.

[00:07:04]>> How about David? Was he a >> and he had multiple wives?

[00:07:07]>> He had multiple wives. He sent an innocent man to his death and the Bible prophet Saul what he did. What does God tells Saul uh kill them the men, the women, the children? And then he specifies even the infants. But which part are you talking about?

[00:07:23]>> I'm talking about the Old Testament.

[00:07:24]>> But are you talking about David or Saul?

[00:07:25]That >> we're talking about Saul now. But what I'm saying is you can't denounce them as prophets when you also believe these narrations of them which as a Muslim I don't believe those biblical >> can I try to bring it back to the prompt and also answer I think I'm going to answer your question.

[00:07:39]>> Do you understand the question? We can't denounce Prophet Muhammad's prophethhood because of fake a hadits while at the same time accepting David as a prophet when he sent the man to war because he had adultery with his wife.

[00:07:53]>> So just because you're sinning, sin does not disqualify you, but that doesn't mean he's not.

[00:07:58]>> Sin does not disqualify you from prophethood. Right? In Deuteronomy, it lists out >> a whole list of what categorizes and what qualifies as a prophet. I want to stick back to the prompt. So the prompt was, "Is Muhammad the last prophet?" The reason why I brought up the Book of Mormon in the first place was because I think we both have common ground that we both deny that the Book of Mormon is scripture. Right? However, I want to test your theory of what prophethood is because Joseph Smith attained popularity. His scripture that he he claims he >> is very limited to Utah. It's not international.

[00:08:30]>> It's actually international. He he Yeah, it is an international faith.

[00:08:33]>> I wouldn't say international.

[00:08:36]They have missionaries. It's about 22 million. But I see where you're going because there is similarities between Joseph Smith and say Muhammad. I mean, Joseph Smith raised armies. He had a lot of popularity behind him. He even transported a lot of people from um you know, the northeast United States over to Utah. So, I see where the similarities you're making.

[00:08:54]>> Right. That's and yeah, thank you for saying that. And now, do I believe all of those things happened? I I don't believe that all those things happened.

[00:09:01]However, I'm using that as common ground. This is what I'm saying. We are able to reject it because it is not theologically consistent with the rest of the Bible. In the same way, this is our issue with the prophet Muhammad because we believe that the Quran that that has been revealed is theologically not consistent with the rest of the Bible. A prophet would not if he's speaking the word of God say something contradictory to the word of the Bible.

[00:09:28]That's where we >> to respond your question. This book was revealed like 14 years ago, right? And for 1400 years ago, sorry. And he still the same >> there is any like any even like point that has changed on it.

[00:09:47]>> That's not true.

[00:09:48]>> Oh yeah.

[00:09:49]>> No, if you look so Muhammad trusted readers.

[00:09:53]>> Yeah. Let me finish it.

[00:09:54]>> Okay. Because when we look at the Bible, we can say every single year there is a changement on on on the Bible. Even among the Christian, >> they have the different Bible like the Bible like that the Christian have here in United States it not maybe the same Bible in Russia.

[00:10:15]>> You're talking about translations >> even translation even like the manuscript is not the same Bible. For example, when you see this Quran in China is the same Quran and they read the same thing in Africa is the same Quran.

[00:10:30]>> So, I'll address the why there's different translations, but I think you wanted to talk about why.

[00:10:33]>> Yeah. I mean, Muhammad had four trusted readers and particularly I want to point out two of them and I'm going to butcher their name, so sorry in advance, but you had Ian Massud and you had uh Iban Cabb.

[00:10:47]And even Cabb for his Quran he had uh 16 chapters he had two extra chapters but Masoud he had three chapters less actually in your Quran there was one less chapter and then >> then why all the world are one >> we have to listen what he's saying again is accepted >> by a big part of the Muslim >> but that's what I was saying that's what I was saying earlier not different books I think that's not true also you're referring to a hadith also >> exactly That's not but there's credible sources you're talking about when we are talking about different sorry the readers had different readings in the matter of accent if I gave you this book this is Quran in English by the way if I gave it to you and I gave it to a British guy you both have different accents you're going to read it in different accents but are you going to understand it different it's the same book so it's the same thing in Arabia you had different dialects not different words >> but he just stated and that's why we have something called different chap they had different chapters some of suras were not there. They didn't consider it.

[00:11:48]>> That's why I'm telling you referring to hadith. That's not true.

[00:11:50]>> That's not that's >> but there's other extra uh sources other than the hadith you can point to historically that show that Muhammad made these people they were authoritative in history. Muhammad basically gave him his blessing said listen to them for their the way they recite their Quran. And like Muhammad and like they were they were all good friends, right? And they disagreed on what was actually the Quran. And then in 650 you have um man and it seems uh you know when he was compiling the Quran he made the Quran that you're talking about you have today. Um but what happened is he actually ended up burning other Qurans and he tried to get rid of it to create that one Quran that you have now.

[00:12:34]But even now like the Quran in Africa is different than the sort of I think it's 1928 version that you have now >> is the same Quran. For example, I'm from Africa. I'm from West Africa and he's from Lebanon. You know that's Europe. So we have the same Quran and we read it the same at the same way. But why did Muhammad give the blessing to these two individuals when they would go on to actually have different versions of the Quran? And now you're telling me that actually the Quran is perfectly the same for what I'm saying is prophethood. I think a prophet is just someone who's a trutht teller.

[00:13:15]>> Exactly.

[00:13:15]>> They just tell the truth even if it goes against them.

[00:13:18]>> And and I I think Thank you for bringing that up.

[00:13:21]>> I think we're all called to do just that. tell the truth, not leave people guessing.

[00:13:26]>> But the Bible says test the spirit though too. So I mean to be a prophet to me is God putting his words into your mouth. That's I mean how I feel like I define being a prophet. There are false prophets like Prophet Muhammad is a false prophet. And I say that because the things that are in the Quran that I have seen, I haven't read all of it. It just does not go it it doesn't it's not consistent with the Bible. Like what for example?

[00:13:50]>> So with the Quran, a lot of the Quran affirms what the Bible likes.

[00:13:54]>> Exactly. I would like to challenge you guys if you have changed like to see the original Bible, the original manuscript Bible.

[00:14:04]>> If you read, >> if you read the Bible, the original one.

[00:14:08]>> Am I missing where this somehow talks about how Muhammad was the last prophet or are we getting off? Okay. Okay. So that being said, I'm going to try and anchor this back. Would you maybe want to just tell us why uh Muhammad is the last prophet?

[00:14:23]>> Um I think some of the points have already been mentioned when it comes to the miracles that he has done. And I know a lot of people are saying or from the Christian side of oh well he was or maybe mainstream popularity. He was not popular especially in the early stages of his prophethhood. he was prosecuted by his own uncles, grandparents, like his close family members did not even approve of him of being a prophet or did not want him preaching what he was preaching when it comes to Islam. So he he wasn't popular he probably gained popularity you can say in the sense if that's a it's not a proper term but popularity maybe in his when he migrated to Medina with was by that time um so for me for he is the seal of all prophets right the prophets that came before him he's the one that concluded and said I am the final one and I'm bringing everything together in this book that was revealed to me by God >> do you all in this I mean obviously besides just you who disagreed do guys all have the same standard for what a prophet is. And I only asked this because the whole debate has been shifted to questioning the Christians and I just want to know more about the Islam in in all of this. Right? So a prophet is someone who either receives a message from God in terms of the Bible, the Quran, the palms of David. So these are B prophets because they have communion with God. but they also received a covenant. And then also you have prophets who have direct communication with God but that don't receive covenants. So they're referred to just as prophets. So for us, we would consider Moses a prophet because he he received the Ten Commandments.

[00:16:00]>> Jesus received the Bible, the New Testament. Prophet Muhammad, he received the Quran. So these are both messengers and prophets. And to the point I think what's going on is they're trying to prove the authenticity of the prophet's claim because of the authenticity of the book. And referring back to what you said, we have to be honest because as Muslims we like to point at Christians, oh this is this and this was written then and but our camp also has many false hadits and one of those is yeah some of the Quran was missing. Some of the Quran was eaten by goats under bed for example. And these exist within our literal corpus. But again, that doesn't apply to all Islamic schools. So respectfully, sometimes our Sunni brothers and sisters, they'll have a harder time arguing the authenticity of the prophet in its complete form because there's many Sunni hadits in Bkari and in Muslim and etc that talk about how certain verses went missing at different periods. Whereas from a Shia position, the Quran was preserved through the infallibility of Prophet Muhammad and through the infallibility of his next his his appointed successor Imam Ali. So what proves Prophet Muhammad is a prophet is because of the interpretation that he offers the entirety of religion from Adam all the way to himself. The Shia understanding of faith as all prophets as being infallible. All of them. None of them committing sins. Because we call prophets of God the ha of Allah, a proof of God. So how can I take David as a proof of God when he's committing adultery? How can I take David as a proof of God when his oldest son, forgive the language, rapes his sister, but then David doesn't want to punish him because he's favored by him because he's his oldest. I don't even think a regular religious person could not attack his own son for raping his daughter. But so for so for the Islamic position is because all the prophets we believe to be infallible. So right away this makes me question the Old Testament prophets as they're understood and then you go to Prophet Muhammad. What makes me believe that he's a prophet? If you believe in the truth of who he was outside of the Fox News characterization of what we think he is and some of the hadiths that describe him very poorly, you find a man who's immaculate, who's sinless, who's infallible. You look at a theology that's coherent from Adam all the way to Prophet Muhammad. the clear consistency that goes to the end times when Jesus and Imam Mahi come together to bring the kingdom of heaven on earth as a theory. It's so flawless. It's so sinless. There's hard to find fault in it regard regardless if it's true or not, but as a theory because it's preserved under this understanding of what we call infallibility.

[00:19:03]>> So you say >> you can't point to a Shia prophet or a Shia imam that causes sin and this preserves the faith. And if you find sins and then you be like, "Okay, it falls." Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:19:12]>> So, uh, no, you brother, you brought up a point where you're talking about what a prophet is, right? We're talking about what a prophet is. And I kind of and you you brought up a lot of things and I'm sure we're going to cover a lot of it later. I really, what I really want to stick with is the prompt of what is a prophet?

[00:19:27]>> Yeah, exactly. Prompt though, >> is Muhammad the last prophet, right? So, you said that a prophet would utter the word of God and it's consistent. You know, I agree with that. However, what we don't see is that consistency when we have the Quran contradicting the Bible and in Galatians it says if an angel or anybody or even if we come back and tell you a different gospel disregard them.

[00:19:53]So when we have Muhammad he may have actually met some sort of entity. But if it's giving a different gospel account, then and it's not consistent with the with the Old Testament and the New Testament, we ought to disregard it.

[00:20:08]That is why that is why the Christian position is Muhammad is not the last prophet. If we stick with theological consistency, it's not about popularity.

[00:20:15]>> I think then because we're comparing two books, that's why if you're comparing the Quran and the Bible, hence why you say Exactly. Let's let's let's even do that to answer your question. Let's compare the Bible with Torah. You know, when you compare the Bible with Torah, you would say the same thing that uh Musa wasn't prophet. I'm sure you would say that cuz you will see the differences like what which Bible say and which Torah say.

[00:20:45]>> The Bible is old testament and new testament together and there is no >> exactly. So let's take two of them. New Testament and the um and the old one and then go take the book of the Torah read all of them and then you will say oh why did they not matching what's not matching >> it won't match cuz the Bible has been like modify all the time >> if you say it's been altered then the Quran is contradicting itself because in surah chapter 547 it says that the Torah and the Injil were given from Allah to the people. In surah 5:68, it says that the Torah and the Injil were given by Allah to the people. In surah 3:1-3, it says the Torah and the Injil were given by Allah to the people. And in Surah 10:94, it says >> if you have doubt, go and ask the people of the scripture. Exactly. So if you say that it was corrupted, >> then you are saying that Allah is telling you to rely on corrupted scripture, which would make Allah re I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I'm just saying.

[00:21:51]>> What are you saying?

[00:21:51]>> I'm just saying.

[00:21:52]>> So they said that Allah preserves his word, but then they turn around and say that the scriptures are corrupted. If the book says that the people of the book, which is us, of the Torah, he says Jews and Christians, people of the book who believe in the Torah and the Gospels, we're supposed to stand on it and judge by that book. When we judge that book, that contradicts our books.

[00:22:12]So we can't believe that. We have to reject and it is in those chapters that you just mentioned. Torah.

[00:22:17]>> Is it possible Muhammad is the prophet and the Christians of today are like the Jews of the past who didn't believe in Jesus?

[00:22:27]>> I'm saying is it I'm not saying to accept Prophet Muhammad. I'm asking is there a possibility in the same way Jews did not accept the messengers of Jesus that Christians are now guilty of committing that same sin that Jews made against Jesus when it comes to Prophet Muhammad. So to keep it based off of the original prompt, there was a couple of points that you originally brought up in the fact that a you stated that there was another prophet that was to come after Muhammad. So that would disprove what the original prompt was is that he was the final the final prophet. You also stated that there has to be a like flawless sinless prophet. Muhammad doesn't meet that characteristic based on his past history. So there's that that element of it. But Jesus is that he has no he is that sinless blemish.

[00:23:17]>> Give me one sin, Prophet Muhammad. Can you tell us?

[00:23:20]>> He has a violent history.

[00:23:21]>> Give me one. Just give me want to give me a description. Give me a clear sin and I'm with you.

[00:23:25]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:26]>> I become Christian today.

[00:23:28]>> Listen, brother. I will be blessed like this. That's it. You give me one sin.

[00:23:32]>> Take this on on the basis of Jesus versus Muhammad. Not Jes or not Muhammad based on the other prophets. We're talking specifically about Jesus. So, >> cuz you brought up Jesus, right? Let's look at Muhammad, right? And you're saying, "Well, David, how could he have multiple wives and actually cheated on the wife that he had?" Well, how could Muhammad marry a six-year-old and then consummate it at nine? That's not behavior that I could have like, but you said Muhammad is the perfect prophet, right?

[00:24:01]>> I'm going to just feel this. Forgive me, guys. Forgive me. I don't make to mean this sectarian. I believe in unity not only between the Muslim camps, between all theists against Zionists. That's my position. I know that came out of nowhere and I'm not trying to be sectarian. Okay guys, I'm going to just say this quickly. These hadits you keep referring to are Sunni hadits as a we do not accept Prophet Muhammad ever married or was betro to at six. He married her in her mid. Secondly, Prophet Muhammad married at 25. She was 26 according to our hadith. She passed at 51. He was monogamous with with for 26 years and in that time period he married no other wife when he describes the love of his life you know he says her love was a blessing from Allah this was a true union but let me so then when you get to his passing that he mourned alongside his uncle Abu Fab then he started having other marriages and he didn't marry them out of sexual desire now he's in his 50s now he's going to get married for sexual impulses He married them because they're widowers.

[00:25:07]>> Can I ask?

[00:25:07]>> He married them because they're women in need and or for political reasons. So it wasn't out of his pleasure or because of his accumulation of wealth. And also there's prophet Solomon who said according to the old Bible had up to 700 wives and I don't know 700.

[00:25:22]>> You're comparing different prophets. I'm talking about Jesus as the final prophet.

[00:25:26]>> Quickly here because this does there is two separate you know um distinctions of the religion over here. I love that you're passionate, but every time they ask a question that is I mean you go that's not real right there. You guys do believe he married position. Yeah. I'm saying like because there's two and the Muslims watching are going to be like well why didn't you know my people say something? Do you believe that he married a six-year-old?

[00:25:48]>> What I would like to say here to make this debate easier let's go through the uh the the the real books like the Bible and the Quran. So, I'm asking, is it factual to you that Muhammad married a six-year-old?

[00:26:01]>> It was the customs of the Arabs even.

[00:26:03]So, it is a factual statement to you.

[00:26:05]>> No, he didn't marry her. He was betrayed to her saying that >> because the hadith, >> as I said before, was wrought after like 100 year after he passed. So, we cannot like go >> but to your sect of your religion. I'm asking do you personally believe that?

[00:26:21]>> Yes, I believe.

[00:26:22]>> Yes, I believe. Cuz >> I'm not questioning you guys. I'm not questioning you. I'm just trying to extract this because this side has been very strong in the debate of saying what they believe and you guys are also a different sect than like a different part than them. So what I'm trying to get is for the viewer to get your perspective as well. So that's why I'm asking you >> that'll be like a separate thing though cuz if we go they'll be like comparing this the different sex within Islam like the Ahmedes the the you know what I mean? It'll be a long comparison. That's why I'm not trying to like respond to my brother.

[00:26:56]>> Exactly. That's the reason why I'm trying to avoid that side.

[00:26:58]>> I'm just saying this is a ground where you must say what you believe um at the risk of not getting um represented.

[00:27:07]>> I was even about to say that to my brother, you know, to not like bring here cuz if you bring that here, we will like leave without understand. You know what I mean?

[00:27:18]>> So it's going to become Muslims versus >> Exactly. If answer that question the good thing in Islam is that we have a book >> whenever whenever we have problem between us or disagreement between us we go back to that book.

[00:27:31]>> Okay.

[00:27:32]>> Exactly. So that's the reason why I'm trying 100% to avoid the hadith. So basically even with Sunni people some groups of Sunnis do believe that not the entirety of the book of hadith is true.

[00:27:45]Shia do believe that also some of the book some of the hadith are true but everything is debatable. It's not 100% true like uh the Quran itself. So even within Sunnis the hadith book is a matter of discussion and it's not 100%